Soundings June 29 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning, and welcome to Soundings, a public affairs presentation
of iHeartMedia. Each week we have an ecumenical discussion and
reflection on the scriptures and how they apply to life
and the world. My name is Shannon Jamal Hollomans, and
I am the pastor at First Congregational United Church of
Christ in Lowell, Michigan, about twenty five miles east of

(00:23):
Grand Rapids. I have two of our regulars here with
me this morning, and I will invite them to introduce
themselves to you, starting with Pastor Ruth.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Good morning. I am Reverend Ruth Bell Olson, and I
serve as a senior minister at Mayflower Congregational Church on
the southeast side of Grand Rapids.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
Hi, I am Father Mike ch Father Roman Catholic Priests,
serving at the Cathedral of Saint Andrew in the heartside neighborhood,
Gran Rapids.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Good morning, morning, Good morning to you both, you too,
So it has been a hot week in Grand Rapids.
We're recording this earlier in the week, but it looks
like the forecast is for more warm weather. How are
you and your your congregants staying cool this week in

(01:13):
these temps?

Speaker 4 (01:14):
Well last Sunday.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
We it fell on our celebration of Corpus Christy and
we typically have a procession. We go outside and do
a procession, and so we did it, but it was
it was hot, so we didn't do a great job of.

Speaker 4 (01:33):
Keeping cool with that.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
But we we did get inside afterwards and had some
popsicles and ice cream to cool ourself off of that,
which we which we definitely needed. Thank God that we
have an air conditioned church. I know not not all
churches have that, and so if we can't, that blessing.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a huge one. Our church
also has air conditioning. And I'm very, very very grateful.
I did say last week, as if people were kind
of sweating as they came in, I said, aren't you
grateful that the rest of you didn't put on a
huge black robe because illed every Sunday. And a woman

(02:20):
who sits toward the front, long, long, long time member,
she looked at me and kind of mouthed the words,
and she took her hands and she kind.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
Of went take it off.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
And I thought, huh, now, that would be very odd
if all of a sudden I literally just made in
front of a congregations really awkward. So then I just
kind of called it out and I said, I'm not
going to do that, Barbara, But you do have these
funny impulses like this is kind of silly that it's

(02:57):
ninety some degrees and put on this black thick, you know, garment.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
So yeah, rethink my clergy outerwear for.

Speaker 4 (03:13):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
But yeah, and we we had scheduled family fun nights
each month in the summer where someone from the church
hosts people from the congregation, any families that want to
come to their home for a fellowship and a pot luck.
And we're small enough church we can do that. And
last month we were at my house with my my

(03:33):
husband and I and it was it was perfect. We
had a bonfire and there weren't a ton of mosquitos yet.
But providentially, we had scheduled for this week our pool
party at someone's house who has a pool. So I'm
quite thankful that God worked that out quite well in
the midst of the heat, that we had already planned
to be at a pool.

Speaker 4 (03:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Nice. Well.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Our reading this morning incomes from the Book of Luke.
I will read Chapter nine, verses fifty one through sixty two,
When the days drew near for Jesus to be taken up,
he set his face to go to Jerusalem, and he

(04:19):
sent messengers ahead of him. On their way, they entered
a village of the Samaritans to prepare for his arrival,
but they did not receive him because his face was
set toward Jerusalem. When his disciples, James and John, saw this,
they said, Lord, do you want us to command fire
to come down from heaven and consume them? But he

(04:42):
turned and rebuked them. Then they went on to another village.
As they were going along the road, someone said to him,
I will follow you wherever you go. And Jesus said
to him. Foxes have holes, and birds of the air
have nests, but the son of Man has nowhere to

(05:02):
lay his head. To another he said, follow me, But
he said, Lord, first, let me go bury my father.
And Jesus said to him, let the dead bury their
own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the
kingdom of God. Another said, I will follow you, Lord,

(05:22):
but let me first say farewell to those at my home.
And Jesus said to him, no one who puts a
hand to the plow and looks back is fit for
the Kingdom of God. This is the gospel of our
Lord Jesus Christ, Thanks be to God. Jesus was always
on the move, and here we have another passage with

(05:45):
him doing the same again. Things that are confusing, I
think for us to read with the distance of time
and location, but things that when we delve in we
can see a little more clearly. The question I was
going to ask both of you. You know, when I
read this, and I read that Jesus set his face
toward Jerusalem, it sounds like, you know, that's where he

(06:07):
was planning to go in this story, but the Samaritans
in the village on the way would not receive him
because his face was set to Jerusalem, because he was
planning to go on and not stay. I read it
as they were sort of offended that he wasn't going
to spend time with them, that they wanted his time,

(06:28):
but that he was He was pretty resolute in that, No,
he was just going to stop for a night and
then go on. But is that how you both read it?
Do you have different readings or understandings of that.

Speaker 4 (06:40):
I'm not sure. I'm curious about it. I think of, like, you.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
Know, the way he describes it, he is, you know,
in one translation, in his face turned towards Jerusalem or
that he's it seems like he's, like you said, he's
focused on going Jerusalem.

Speaker 4 (06:55):
He's focused on the mission that he has.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
And I know that I know some people who when
it's very easy to tell when they're like focused on
something because they tend to, like you know, for for
better or worse, they tend to like filter out the
things that are not related to the mission that they

(07:18):
feel like they're called to do at that moment. And
so right, so sometimes people are kind of put off
because like, oh, this this person, especially.

Speaker 4 (07:27):
When like when it's a priest for instance.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
I'm thinking about, you know, when this person is so
focused and he's not tend to my needs, that it
can be it can be off putting because you think
that they're being insensitive or what have you. And I
think that the the person who's has that focus is

(07:50):
doesn't well certainly doesn't see it that way because they see, like, Okay,
I have I have a mission, I'm called to do this,
I need to be focused on it. And you know,
and as we see, Jesus has these different people that
kind of I mean, what you could say it in
the way that like they interrupt him, they interrupt his mission,
and he he does tend to them. But I think

(08:11):
there's a bit of a it's a bit more abrupt
maybe than at other times that we've seen him. And yeah,
maybe it's it's it's a it's a I guess it's
a reminder of sort of the need for us to
be missionary, to follow what God's calling us to do,

(08:32):
but also have that time to spend to others. But
but but have them know as well that, like you know,
I'm I have a certain calling that I'm doing, and
I'm I invite you to join me if you want to.

Speaker 4 (08:47):
But I still I can't.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
I can't really stray from that because that's where that's
where God's calling me.

Speaker 4 (08:54):
Yeah, anyway, just some thoughts.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
I don't really know, but it's it's an interesting it's
interesting reading for that reason.

Speaker 4 (08:59):
I think I.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Also wonder there's such a deep, deep distrust of Samaritans
and Jews. You have this in the story of the
Good Samaritan, where the parable I guess of the Good
Samaritan that the very very last person the audience when
Jesus is telling that parable, the very very very last

(09:22):
person the audience would have assumed to be good is
a Samaritan, right, So you have this deep their origin
stories are similar. But then of course the Samaritans kind
of go off and they worship a different it's a
different mountain where the you know, it's a it's a
similar origin story that kind of goes off and they

(09:43):
worship in a different way than the Jews. So you
have this deep animosity, this really really deep kind of
almost hatred of each other, deep distrust of each other.
So I wonder if beyond the he's in a hurry,
he doesn't have time for them, if there's kind of
a I'm just curious if there's a deeper whether it's

(10:07):
an ethnic, racial, religious, kind of a deeper layer going
on that they that they kind of don't they don't
receive him. If his face is set towards Jerusalem, then
then he is he's set another direction, right, that that

(10:29):
is not just I'm busy. I am I'm set to fulfill.
I'm set to fulfill a destiny that is in this direction,
not not the other. I wonder if there's some some
much deeper layer that has to do with that strife

(10:50):
that it doesn't get resolved. It doesn't get resolved in
this story. I think it gets resolved kind of in
the larger scheme of uh uh, you know, Christ Redemption
for all, but in this story I wonder if it
doesn't get resolved here. Yeah, yeah, And we see that

(11:11):
that there are these things that don't And I think
maybe that's a comfort to us that in some ways
we're not going to see peace maybe right now in
this life or in this season with people that just
don't have our same framework, or don't understand our religious
structure in the same way, or blah blah blah blah blah,
whatever those things are. That there really was this deep

(11:35):
rift between the Jews and Samaritans.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, yeah, and you see it. You see it in
that verse you know where or James and John see
what you know, the rejection and they say, Lord, do
you want us to command fire to come down and
consume them? Right? Like they were immediately ready.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
The patred Right, there's a deep you're there, yeah, exactly
do they even have that power?

Speaker 1 (11:59):
So? Right?

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Can we say you're right in your left and you
kind of like, who are these guys?

Speaker 1 (12:06):
Like?

Speaker 2 (12:07):
Right? Can I even do that? That's so silly, but
it I mean, I guess, I guess it does reveal
like there is no compassion.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, there is.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
It is like, guess the knee jerk is, let's let's
burn them up. Yeah yeah, yeah, which I don't know.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah. And of course, you know, you know, on our minds,
we're recording this earlier in the week, so we don't
know how this has developed. But you know, very recently
our country decided to you know, bomb some nuclear facilities
in Iran. And for for me, you know that that
brings to mind immediately how Americans often view the Middle East,

(12:47):
Middle Eastern countries, particularly Iran, and Muslims and Shia Muslims
in particular, and and almost in a way that that
as you were describing pastor Ruth right, without any compassion,
without any understanding that they are people as well, right
with their own needs and concerns. And there's a site

(13:08):
on Facebook, a group called Humans of New York and
they publish photos often of people in New York City,
and this weekend they published photos of children in Iran.
Just said, here's some photos of children in Iran living
their lives. And it was it was really beautiful, and
it was a good reminder too, that even the Samaritans
are people, right, even the Iranians are people.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, even though our instinct is to command fire, God's
about more.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah. I was thinking that this morning, are are my family?
As a child, we we had very very close to
an Iranian family that we grew up with their extended family,
and I was thinking about them. You know, when you
when you have proximity and when you have names and

(14:02):
faces and stories, and of course it's very different you
hear the news, you read the news. I mean, I'm
saying what we all know, but it's a totally it's
totally different when you're like, oh no, no, this is
this is the family of and I can fill in,
I can feel the names, I can fill in narratives.

Speaker 4 (14:20):
It's very different.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yeah, yeah, it's a there's I guess there's an odd
similarity to this story. You know, the James and John
calling to rain down hm. You know they call them
the sense of thunder, ring down fire upon this, I mean,
upon the thounce on these people. And we see, like,
you know, this bombing happening in Iran, which is raining
down fire, and you know, I wonder, you know, if

(14:47):
Jesus were physically present with the people who were making
that decision. What would he say, would he you know,
I imagine he would. He would probably actually the same way
you do with James and John. But but yeah, it's
it's you know, these things that play out in biblical
times are are not irrelevant to us that we see

(15:10):
history competed in many ways, and and I think this
is this is one way.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, yeah, and I think it may be connected to
the next part of the story as well. Right, James
and John that their instinct is to want power and control,
and then you know, Jesus goes on and these other
verses to talk about just how little following Jesus means
power and control that you will have, right. You know,

(15:40):
he says, foxes have holes and birds have nests, but
I have nowhere to lay my head, you know, to
someone who says I'll follow you, and and to those
who say I want to go, I want to go
with you, and he says follow me. But they all say,
but I have this other stuff to take care of,
these other things to do, and He's like, no, just

(16:02):
follow me. The other things will take care of themselves. Uh.
It's yeah, I wonder how are these connected, right? How
How is this this story of of this Samaritan village
not wanting to make a place for Jesus and the
disciples reaction to that. How is that connected to these

(16:25):
other seemingly disconnected lines about people, about life and what
it means to follow Jesus.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
It's such a funny sequence You've got. I'll follow you
wherever I'll go, and then I'll follow you if and
then but and then follow me. Right, It's like that
single scenario. Yeah, he gives a different answer to every
single person, which I think is in some ways indicative
to we always say this here at our church, that

(16:55):
you know, faith is a journey and being very kind
of strict congregational us that people are different places in
their journey and that Christ meet to where you are,
and that it's it is different for every person. And
we talk about being descriptive not prescriptive. I kind of
see that in this narrative that people are often not

(17:18):
ready to make certain they're just not ready in their
journey to jump from A to Z. And I can
see Jesus kind of in like the person who's saying,
you know, I let the dead bury their own dead. Well,
you're not going to say that. You're gonna say that
to this person, right, listen, ar, You're not going to
say it to this to the next person. That there

(17:38):
is this that Jesus is meeting, meeting each person where
they are, and the person who says, you know, I'll
follow you wherever you go. I just see Jesus looking
at each person's heart. You're not ready, you're ready, You're
not ready, right, there's like this not there isn't all
one size fits all, looking at the heart. I don't

(18:00):
know's that's kind of where I'm reading it.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, And I see, you know, these people saying I'll
follow you, but first I have to get my stuff together, right,
first I have to do this, or first I have
to do this, or I'll follow you wherever you know,
but you know, as long as I'm comfortable, right, And
Jesus is quick to call that out each time and
say no, just follow me now, like like, stop putting

(18:25):
it off, Stop saying you have things to do first,
Stop making excuses, like following me is the journey, it
is the walk, and you can do all these things
while you follow me, but you have to follow me.
That's the first priority. And these other things can't get
in the way of that. It's a challenge. I think
that's the challenge we often live with every day as

(18:47):
people who try to follow Jesus. Right, the distractions, the
things that we think maybe are more important that God says, no,
you need to let go of this and just follow me.
I'm reading an interesting devotional right now by I think
she's an Episcopal priest, Reverend Lizzie McManus dale, and in

(19:09):
it she talks about, you know, people talking about loving
your neighbors and loving God, but really how in Scripture
the two are so intricately connected that we have to
understand that loving our neighbors is how we love God, right,
that we reflect our love for God by loving our neighbors.

(19:32):
And she says, I'll just quote one part. She says,
my love for others, the ferocious willingness I have to
go anywhere and do anything for the people I love.
This is love that is never ever outside of God,
because there's nowhere my love or being can go that
is outside of God. You know, I think so often

(19:52):
we try to live outside of God. And I think
that's maybe what these people in conversation with Jesus were
trying to do. Right, to live outside of God, that's
the instinct to rain down fire on people. Right is
to live outside of God. But Jesus is continually calling
us into life with God in Christ. Right, that's faithful.

Speaker 4 (20:16):
That follows that goes Yeah, I'm I'm reminded.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
I mean, his issue was different, but I'm reminded of
a quote of Saints Augustine saying, Lord make me pure,
but not yet.

Speaker 4 (20:34):
Prayer. It's cons some prayer. And I think, you know,
I think that that ties somewhat.

Speaker 3 (20:40):
To these these people who uh say they want to
follow Jesus, but they're like, well, not not yet.

Speaker 4 (20:46):
I'm not quite there yet.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
And I think, as as Pastor Ruth said, I think
that's that's where some people are at and they're not ready.
And I like how you said, like you're not ready
to go from A to Z. But I think Jesus
might be calling any partuct person from A to B
and not necessarily you know, and then to C and
then to D. And I think that's for for these people.

(21:09):
I think that's probably what it is, like, you know,
don't you know, just follow me, you know, take the
first step and I'll show you I'll show you with
the next step, as I'll share who the next step is.

Speaker 4 (21:20):
And and I've yeah, we can.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
It can be a fearful, a fearful process because you
don't know, we want to know all the steps before
we get to the end.

Speaker 4 (21:31):
And I'm thinking now of like that in seminary.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
I don't know if it was if it was a
similar experience for for you all, but I know for
me it was. It was it was one step at
a time, and I would make I'd make a commitment
to my community each year. And if I were to
say at the very beginning that I was going to
make my final my promise for life, that they watch,

(22:02):
but I heard to that first step, just just go
there first and see how it is, and then you know,
make it through the first year, and then you can
decide again and on and on. And I think, yeah,
I think that's what what Christ calls us to. He
doesn't he doesn't want us necessarily go from A to Z,

(22:23):
but from A to B. And you know that still
takes its own level of trust.

Speaker 4 (22:29):
For sure.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
And I think that you know, these the people that
we're hearing about in this gospel reading, are you know,
they're their hesitance to make that that the step to be.
But as we can hear, Jesus is, you know, calling
them to it and calling us all to that that
small step.

Speaker 4 (22:47):
I think, amen.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, I think about that this week, that that's that's
not going from A to Z but A to B. Right,
that God calls us an increments not necessarily the huge,
huge steps that sometimes we imagine. It doesn't have to
be that daunting. And I always think of Abraham's call
right when when Abram was still in the land of
Erth and God called him, He didn't say get up

(23:12):
and go to the land, this land right here, He says,
I get up and go to the land that I
will show you. Like Abram doesn't even know where he's
going yet, and God says, no, just get up and
go because I said so, because that's who I am
and you can trust me. And Abram doesn't have the

(23:32):
whole picture ahead of him, he doesn't know what's ahead.
But God just calls him to get up and go.
And I think that's often how it works.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
Right, Yeah, The importance is to follow.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any other final thoughts on this in
our last few minutes.

Speaker 4 (23:51):
Well, I ask us I'll just to pray for peace.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
He's in our world, it seems especially of course, we
always go in peace, but right now it just seems
especially pertinent to off lift up our our prayers, fervent
prayers for peace in our worlds.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, there's there's so much that's that's scary in the
world today. You know, I tend to open up BBC
in the morning to check, you know, the headlines there,
and it's just it's it's so disconcerting sometimes right to hear,
you know, Russia's bombed Ukraine again, and what's going on

(24:28):
in Iran, and what's going on in Israel and the
Palestinian territories and East Africa. There's just so much to
be discouraged by, to be disheartened by. But but we
have a God who calls us to pray, like you
reminded us, Father Mike, right to be in constant conversation
with God, that that there are things that we can

(24:49):
do that God will give us peace and set our
hearts in the right path that we should go if
if we trust God enough to give God these burdens
that we carry. Well, Thank you, Father Mike and Pastor
Ruth once again for a great conversation. And to all
of you as you go into this Sunday, we pray

(25:10):
that you would have Sabbath, rest and follow God from
from A to B and wherever God leaves beyond leads beyond.
Have a good day.