Soundings June 8 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning everyone, and welcome to Soundings. Happy Pentecost Sounding.
This is an ecumenical discussion from many different church traditions,
and we studied electionary scriptures and how they apply to
life and to our world. And I am Molly Bosher
and episcopal priest serving on the north side of Grand Rapids.

(00:22):
And we had two of our regulars here this morning,
and we introduce yourself, beginning with Jessica. Hi.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
I am Reverend Jessica Rivera Walker. I am a pastor,
a good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Holland. We are right
on one hundred and twelfth in Quincy, kind of between
Holland and Zealand.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
And I am Bethdic I'm the director of Faith Formation
at Saint Philip Neary Saint Anne Reed City and the
director of pastor care and Outreach at Saint Mary's Saint
Paul's in Big Rapids.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Happy Pentecast, y'all, Happy pentcast come Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yes, indeed, indeed, what do you guys do on Pentecost
at your churches?

Speaker 2 (01:00):
You want to go first?

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Sure? Absolutely, well, the red comes out for sure, so
vestments are, red, banners.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Are and she just went out there for a minute.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yep, she just froze. I didn't know if it was.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
So maybe we what do you do for Pentecost, Jessica.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
That's okay, I can I can jump in. I we
the red comes out here too, and red vestments. I
encourage the congregation to wear red. I always joke in
the Lutheran Church that we don't we're going to talk
about the Holy Spirit very much. I sort of. I

(01:37):
joke that we sort of like let her out of
her box and let her run around for a little
bit on Pentecost, and then we put her back in
our books. I try not to do that, but uh
we So it's really just red. And occasionally will have

(02:05):
the readings done and I don't know if my person
is going to be able to arrange it this year.
Occasionally we will try to have the acts reading done
by people speaking in different languages, like at the same time.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
So, okay, so you said you let the Holy Spirit
out of her box for just and then you put
her back in again, or are you trying to leave
her out a little bit?

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Why I try to leave her out? We are being
that we're not of a charismatic tradition. The Holy Spirit
is I think my people are not sure what the
Holy Spirit really does. Like it's always kind of like, what,
I'm not sure what this third person of the Trinity does,
And so I try to like talk about that and

(02:52):
talk about the Holy Spirit a little bit more throughout
the year. But as far as like really celebrate, I
think being Midwestern Lutherans, it's sort of like, oh, fire winds,
that's a lot, you know.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
So the other thing I noticed is that you called
the Holy Spirit she. What's that about?

Speaker 2 (03:14):
That is about a couple of things we you know,
in seminary was really when I kind of learned the
sort of connection between Sophia in like Proverbs and the
Holy Spirit and this idea you know, of wisdom kind

(03:37):
of not the same but kind of. And it felt
more comfortable for me at the time to refer to
the Holy Spirit as she, because using a male pronoun
didn't really it didn't really fit because I associated the

(03:59):
Holy Spirit more with like wisdom and the idea of
hovering or dancing over the waters. That creation felt to
me more of a feminine energy, and so that's why
I call the Holy Spirit she, knowing that spirit and

(04:23):
being don't have a gender, but English is limited, so.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
So we kind of lost you about that after you
said we all get our red on do.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
You want agree? I'm reconnected now, yeah, we use red.
We'll have great Pentecost music, holy spirit music, and yeah,
that's what I was going to say.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
M hm, yeah, we do all of that too. In fact,
I say, you can wear flame colored clothes, so you know,
you can even wear yellow, or you can wear that
little bit of blue that's kind of in the middle
of the flame if you want to wear that too,
you know. And then we always we have a tradition
here where we take a photograph of everybody on Pentecost,
so we all kind of go up to the front

(05:09):
of the church, we take a picture and and like,
we also have lots of streamers, red streamers on Pentecost,
you know, kind of the ones, you know, they they
make her they make everything kind of be like whoo,
something is happening. It's really exciting. And then we often
have a picnic after Pentecost because after our Pentecost day,

(05:30):
because often Pentecost is kind of the end of our
kind of our program season in the beginning of summer.
And personally I will say that I have children whose
birthdays often fall around Pentecost, so both of them are like, oh,
you know, we're kind of all Pentecosta with their birthdays too,
you know, kind of like, you know, it's always like

(05:51):
Pentecost is like right around there, because like one of
my children is born at the end of May and
one of my children is born at the beginning of June,
so it's kind of like they're Pentecost, you know. And
I love the Holy Spirit. I went to a seminary
in Central Florida for a little while, finished seminary there

(06:13):
that was not an episcopal seminary, and the way that
at that seminary they kind of talked about Jesus made
me really uncomfortable, you know. And not that I don't
love Jesus. I love Jesus, do not get me wrong,
But there was just kind of like this almost Jesus'
boyfriend mentality, and that just made me feel really uncomfortable.

(06:35):
I mean, you know, even as God is with us
and incarnation which means God with us, I'm all about that.
So I started talking about the Holy Spirit more at
that point in time. That was like a moment for me,
and I agree, we're not a charismatic church either, And
by charismatic that means, you know, a lot of those

(06:55):
churches that really are devoted to the Holy Spirit, there's
a lot of speaking in tongues, or they dance in
the aisles or some of the things like that, which honestly,
I think that would be fun. But I think I
would be very uncomfortable with that too. So kind of
I feel, like like you, Jessica, I feel I feel
kind of obsessed with Spirit because I mean, what do

(07:16):
we say now? We say that Spirit is the reason
that the work of God continues in the world. In spirit,
we work with Spirit, and Spirit works with us. And
and I'm just I'm just always very curious to see
the work of the Holy Spirit. And one of my
lines and I and I often say this, I mean
with another word here too, but you can only imagine

(07:39):
the other word. The Holy Spirit gets her work done,
you know. And like a lot of the Holy Spirits,
I feel like the marks of the Spirit are often
that it's unlikely and weird, you know, yes, you know,
like Spirit's work is not like it's not normative, you know.
And so I don't know, I I often I often

(08:02):
think about Holy Spirit.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yep, yeah, I think go ahead, No, you go ahead,
So I think again, and especially also being a Midwestern congregation,
I think that is where the Holy Spirit, like everybody's
fine with the story of the flame, the tongues of

(08:25):
flames and people speaking in different languages, right, but then
like as long as that was back then, and the
Holy Spirit does not do anything unpredictable now. And so
I often end up preaching on this idea that of
the three people of the of the three expressions of

(08:48):
the Trinity, the Holy Spirit is the one that is
the most unpredictable. I mean, fire and wind are unpredictable.
And also when combined, not necessarily like I mean, add
wind to a fire, and it is not great sometimes
because it fans literally the flames. And so this is

(09:12):
this is the expression of God that that takes us
if we let it to unexpected places. This is the
expression of God that calls us and we go I
don't know, I don't want to. I don't want to
do that. I don't want to go there. I don't
what do you mean? And you know it can be

(09:34):
a wild it can be a wild ride.

Speaker 3 (09:38):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
I heard an artist speak one time about how hard
it is to draw the Holy Spirit and some kind
of art or dry and that's because the wind is
so hard to draw you can't capture it. So it's like,
you know the wind is blown because you see other
things moving, are right. Sure, it's very difficult.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
So, I mean, even in our Acts reading this morning,
and sometimes I like, I feel like maybe we should
I don't know, it's kind of tempting to read the
Acts reading instead of our gospel today. But it says
there was the sound like the rush of a violent wind.
Now it does not say like a pretty little breeze there,
does it. It is the rush of a violent wind.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yeah, yeah, you're going to hear that coming. Yes, And
what do we say?

Speaker 1 (10:25):
A tornado sounds like a train, you know, so we're
thinking like a hurricane or a train, you know. Right, Yeah,
we're not like fluffy little cloud in it today.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Y'all right, get right at it, get right at it?

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Shall we.

Speaker 3 (10:46):
Shall?

Speaker 1 (10:46):
We read this text bath from the.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
Gospel from John's Gospel.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and
we will be satisfied. Jesus said to him, have I
been with you all this time? Philip and you still
do not know me. Whoever has seen me has seen
the Father. How can I say, show us the Father.
Do you not believe that I am in the Father
and the Father is in me. The words that I

(11:14):
say to you, I do not speak on my own.
But the Father, who dwells in me does his work.
Believe me that I am in the Father and the
Father is in me. But if you do not believe,
then believe me because of the works themselves. Very truly,
I tell you, the one who believes in me will
also do the works that I do, and in fact,

(11:36):
will do greater works than these. Because I am going
to the Father. I will do whatever you ask in
my name, so that the Father may be glorified in
the Son. If in my name you asked me for anything,
I will do it. If you love me, you will
keep my commandments, and I will ask the Father, and

(11:59):
he will give you another advocate to be with you forever.
This is the spirit of truth, whom the world cannot
receive because it neither sees him nor knows him. You
know him because he abides with you, and he will
be in you. I have said these things to you
while I am still with you. But the advocate the

(12:22):
Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you everything and remind you of all that
I have asked of you. Well have said to you peace,
I leave with you my peace I give to you.
I do not give to you as the world gives.
Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not

(12:43):
let them be afraid.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Amen.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Amen.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
And you can hope that if you are lecturing or
reading at your church this morning, you don't have to
read the acts reading where you have to read Parthenians
needs residents of Mesopotamia today in Cappadocia, pontesant Asia, Skyrji
and Fambilia, Egypt and parts of any you can hope
that that is not your reading this morning, or if

(13:07):
it is your reading, that you've gone to church and
practiced first right.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Right right. I always just say, look, whatever you say,
just say it with confidence. No one's going to know, m.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Although there have been times I've known even when people
have said it and confidence.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
Well, I mean, we'll know because we know the but
like most people don't know how those words are pronounced anyway, So.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
That's piled on the pew. We'll just go with it, Yes, right.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
They will, I know, I know, I love that Axe
passage you know of the coming of the Spirit as well. Yeah,
oh go ahead.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well I was gonna say, it's it's very different. So
we have Jesus who leaves them the Holy Spirit by
like breathing gently on them, and the spirit is associated
with peace and and you know, guidance. And then later

(14:14):
you have the passage and act where the Holy Spirit
comes suddenly violently and loudly and with flame. And it's
it's interesting because I wonder what the disciples felt, right,
So here they have this experience with Jesus where Jesus

(14:37):
is like, I'm going to send my advocate and I
leave you peace and you will be guided. And then
when the advocate like comes again, it's sort of unclear too,
like is it the breathing on them or is it?
But then later when the Holy Spirit comes upon them,
either for the first time or again, it's this is

(15:00):
a whole different jarring experience. And I wonder if they
were like, what is this.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
I love the way that you said that that jarring experience.
It's kind of like shakeshaw up a bit, you know,
but their whole farewell discourse is a lot. It's like
a lot of kind of calm down people, Calm down,
calm down, you know, and then the coming of the
Holy Spirit. You're right, is like what I this morning,

(15:33):
you read this or this passage, and Lord show us
the Father and we will be satisfied. I could just
hear a little kid saying, you know, prove it, you know,
prove it, you know, like how they used to say
when we were kids. You know, you know, you some
kid makes an outrageous claim and other kid says, prove it,
you know, right. Yeah, But I mean we also know

(15:54):
like this is it's interesting that this farewell discourse is
so gentle, but we also know that the resurrection was
not exactly a peaceful time either, was it. Right now,
there are all of these parts of this Jesus that
are just so jarring. I mean, even even having you know,

(16:15):
to have a baby in a barn, you know, or
you know, with you know, putting the baby in the manger.
I guess we don't know that the baby was born
in a barn. We just know that they put the
baby in the manger.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
You know.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
There's all of these jarring pieces and we have just
kind of like make them calm, you know, right, Like
I once read this book. It's one of my it's
the theological books. I won't even tell you the title,
but anyhow, in it she talks about how the spirit
is the like how we were talking about, is the
most dangerous member of the trinity. And very often she

(16:46):
kind of she comes up in places that you are
not expecting, it on people you're not expecting. So, like
to use a Catholic example, like Juan Diego in Mexico City,
you know where you know, the spirit came, you know,
the Virgin Mary appeared to him. And I would say,
that's the spirit, right, and he's got this, you know,

(17:09):
and he says, this is where we're supposed to build
a church. Why would the spirit choose a peasant, Like,
why wouldn't the spirit choose some be rich and powerful
and famous who had the influence. No, the Spirit chooses
the unlikely. And often, I mean the three of us
are talking together. Often I think that's women, you know,

(17:30):
our long tradition in the church. I mean, the Spirit
speaks through women, you know, and it's not just through
the three of us. And when we could go way back,
we could talk about Mary. I mean, you know, the
Holy Spirit will come upon you and will overshadow you.
You know, there's an example. Or we could talk about
the saints, you know. I think about Hildegard or some
of those crazy crazy women, you know who kind of

(17:52):
like you're like, okay, you know, I totally see God
in you, but this is really weird, you know, and
like that that is a It's just something to think
about that none of us. That's always a possibility for
all of us, that the Spirit is going to come
upon us in some kind of strange way.

Speaker 3 (18:11):
And I think responding it can be in very unusual ways.
I was at a nursing home and we were I
was doing community service and they said, you know what,
she's not Catholic, but she's a friend of ours and
she's dying. Could we go to her room and pray?
And I said absolutely, So here we go, one with
a cane, two walkers, and another one who walks way fast.
So wait a little prey down the hallway to this

(18:33):
woman's room. While hospice was in there, the aides were
in there so that you can't come in right now.
So they we can't go in, We can't go and
we can't go in, and I said, but we could
pray here in the hall. So we made a little
circle and they pray because they really I think that
was the Holy Spirit, because they really wanted to pray
with their friend that was dying. So I think that,
I mean, just this parade of love, and that's what

(18:53):
Jesus is telling us, right, I think. I think this
reading from the Gospel is tame, but it's so powerful. Right,
if you love me, you will keep my commandments. So
what was the commandment Jesus gave us? To love one
another right and to keep the law. But you have
to love one another. And I thought that was the
most loving thing. Those people knew what to do was
to pray with their friend that was dying, and we

(19:14):
had to do it in the hallway. I said, we
could pray right here. That they were so happy to
pray with walkers.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yeah, I mean, I hope at that age, somebody's praying
for me when I'm dying. You know, their friends wanted
to pray with her.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
I hope my friends love me enough to like walk
down the hall and they're walkers right with me when
I'm dying.

Speaker 3 (19:34):
I hope so it was a long way. It was
two hallways, and I thought, we can do it, you guys,
but they wanted to do it so bad. And I
just thought, that's the Holy Spirit in them following jesus
commandment to love one another. Mm hmmm, their little community.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
I think that's I I agree. And the Spirit gathers
us too, you know, we we see it in church
when we do the apostles creed or when we do
the Lord's Prayer, we say, gathered together by the Holy Spirit.
You know, it is this is this passage, is strong

(20:16):
and like it's like a rootedness kind of strength. And
I think that's the beautiful thing about the Holy Spirit
is the Spirit can be rooted and strong and unpredictable
and fall upon people when they least expect it, and

(20:37):
fall upon the people that you least expect, or fall
upon you when maybe it's not convenient, and also bring
peace with it though.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Mm and we know that the peace is not the
peace like the world gives right, right, And I don't know.
I also love that that name for the spirit, the advocate,
you know, the one who is groaning on your behalf right.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
Yeah, yeah, it will teach us to remind us everything.
Sometimes I don't want to be reminded right to love
one another. Maybe I don't want to. Yes, I will
remind you. The Holy Spirit will remind you to be
loving and kind.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
The Spirit is the reason I love that thing that
you said about the spirit gathers us. I mean, the
Spirit is the reason there is a church. Help spirit,
there would be no church. We know what we're like
as humans, right right.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
We have to have that intercessor the advocate to remind
us and to teach us.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
And yes, because that's the other thing, kind of cost
is the birthday of the church.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Right as it is?

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yes, yeah, that was a nice little pause, y'all.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yes, yeah, the day of the church. The I think,
you know, the the church has had its molly. I
like what you said about you know what we're like
as humans. Like, the Church is not perfect by any means.

(22:20):
We all know this. But it is the Holy Spirit
that fuels the Church to keep going. And I think
also calls the church to reform and repentance. You know,
when the when the Reformation happened, you know, I think

(22:41):
that was the Spirit saying some of these things maybe
do need to change or be understood differently, and so
the Spirit calls us as the church to remain true
to Christ while also reforming when we need to be reformed.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
M hmmmmm mm hmmm mm hmmm mm hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Yeah, and I think too. I mean, you know, like
we all, I know, we've all had those experiences where
we kind of know that God is talking to us.
I mean I might argue that.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
Is the work of the Spirit mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
You know, like being with us and showing us the
way that we should go in some kind of weird way,
and then you're in the right place and in the
right time, like like that's was with the Walkers, you know.
I feel like that is the work of the Spirit, you.

Speaker 3 (23:40):
Know, Yes, yes, And I think sometimes too, like when
I run late sometimes oh I should really and then
you missed an accident. It's like if I'd have been
on time, I'd probably been involved in that. So I
always think that's the Spirit saying okay, today is the
day you need to be late. So always, But yeah,
it's a long time ago. When I was eighteen kind

(24:02):
of introduced me to the Holy Spirit, and I've prayed
with him for the Holy Spirit ever since. So I
will always remember when he's retiring this year. So shout
out to Father Jym. So, yeah, he was part of
my early life and early spiritual life.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Good job, father Jim.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah yeah, Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
I think I think I think Spirit sometimes makes us
uncomfortable though too. You know, that's another one. You know,
when when we need to grow and when we need
to change, like it becomes sometimes it becomes unbearable for
us to stay where we are, and I think, I

(24:42):
don't know, I think that's the work of the spirit too,
you know.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, Well, I hope that everybody has a wonderful Pentecost
and maybe you have a piece of cake because it
is the birthday of the Church, and so maybe that
you wear a red today and you thank God for spirit,
for seeing spirit in one another and seeing spirit in

(25:09):
our world and behalf of Jessica and Beth and myself.
I hope you have a wonderful day.