Soundings May 11 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning everyone, and welcome to Soundings, a public affairs
presentation of iHeart Media. Each week we have an ecumenical
discussion on the Lectionary Readings and how they apply to
life and to our world. And this week we continue
our journey through the Gospel of John in this Easter season.

(00:23):
And I am the Reverend Malli Boscher and I am
an episcopal priest that serves at Saint Andrew's Episcopal Church
on the north side of Grand Rapids on three Mile Road.
And we have two of our regulars here this morning.
Let's begin with Jessica. I.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
I am Reverend Jessica Rivera Walker. I am the pastor
of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, which is a church of
the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, located in Holland at
the corner of one hundred and twelve in Quincy.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
And I'm Beth Big. I'm the Director of Faith Formation
Saint Philip Neary, Saint Anne Reed City and the director
of Pastor so Karen Outreached Saint Mary, Saint Paul Big Rapid.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Well, Good morning, how's everyone doing?

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Good? Good morning, I'm doing wow. On with the Easter season,
we just had adult confirmation at the cathedral on Saturday.
So that was just beautiful. And in another week or
so we're going to have first communion at Saint Philip's.
Saint Mary. Saint Paul had first communion over the weekend.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Oh wow.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah. How long did they prepare for first Communion?

Speaker 3 (01:27):
About a year? Okay, you know I.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
Have taught first communion classes before in the church I
served in Florida. A lot of those prisoners were ex Catholics,
and so we did a first Communion class. Although we
in the Episcopal Church we let children have communion as
soon as they've been baptized. Not everybody does that. Hardly
anybody gives their children communion from that time on. But

(01:54):
I think it's really an important thing to kind of
remember and remember again, like what what communion is and
how precious and holy and wonderful it is.

Speaker 4 (02:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
We so in the Lutheran Church, we it used to
be fifth grade and you did like a whole year,
half year of preparation for that. It's moved now more
toward like that's kind of between the parent and the

(02:26):
child and the pastor. And so I usually start talking
to parents, Uh well when I when we do baptism.
I say, look, it's an option if you want to
have your your child have communion right after they're baptized,
which is what we did with my son. He was baptized,
and then when communion came up in the service, we

(02:49):
took like a little little eye dropper of grape juice
and put it on his tongue. And and so I
usually do a really short communion instruction for like littler kids,
you know, I try to gather a group of them.
And what I've told the parents about is like if

(03:10):
I notice that the child starts reaching for the bread,
they get like a little goldfish cracker with their blessing,
But when they start reaching for the bread because they
know it's different, that's when I kind of contact the
parents and I go, you know what, I notice that
they're reaching for the bread. I'm wondering if this is
something that you want to do. And so I have communed.

(03:34):
I have done community classes for a three year old
on up.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
That's really cool. That's really cool. So the other thing
we should talk about is the Pope Beth.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
I know, God bless us all yes.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yeah, and like the new pope, So what are you
thinking about all of that.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
You know, it was surprising on Easter Monday, but you
know what, he was out there Easter Sunday being a
good shepherd, right out there being the Pope. I give
him a lot of credit. You could tell he didn't
feel good, he didn't look good, but he was still
out with the people. And I think that it will
be one of his legacies, is that he was out

(04:15):
with the people. I think mercy will be one of
his legacies. I was one of those people that got
up at four am to watch the funeral and pray
the funeral. You know, two things at the homily that
the cardinal gave was Pope Francis talked about that we're
a culture of waste. We waste so much goods, people

(04:40):
and time, and we waste so much in our culture.
And the other thing he talked about was Francis talked
about we're a liquid society. We just go and do
whatever we want. We just flow everywhere instead of you know,
following Christ and you know, doing works of mercy. And
I thought those were two really great points from the
cardinals that presided at the funeral. And then the beautiful procession.

(05:02):
You don't see that in hundreds of years. The pope
doesn't usually leave once he's died. He doesn't leave Saint Peter's,
but to be buried at Mary Major was incredible to
see that procession. And obviously now we're praying for the
cardinal the College of Cardinals that they will be openly
spirit because I think the media forgets it will be

(05:22):
the Holy Spirit that chooses the new pope the cardinals
get there. So but we're praying. In fact, you could
even sign up to pray for a specific cardinal, which
I did, so I'm praying for a cardinal from Brazil
that he will be open to the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, well, we will certainly also be praying in the
prayers of the people for the College of Cardinals as
they as they meet in conclave.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
And yeah, I was thinking about you, Beth. I was
thinking about you and and just everyone who is affected
by the by the Hope's passing.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
So, Beth, you know, because you know, like it's kind
of the question like the Da Vinci Code question. So
just just you know, kind of bear with me. And
when I say it's like the Da Vinci Code question,
you know, people often say well, you know, you know,
like somehow the DaVinci code is like, you know, gospel
truth when it's all fiction. But my question is how
true do you think the movie Conclave was. Did you

(06:35):
ever see that, Beth, because.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
I ide have. Yeah, yeah, and even more lately, I
you know, it's a It's a Hollywood movie, is what
I tell people. It's a Hollywood movie. You have to
remember that. It's a Hollywood movie, you know. And I
think and I already saw that once, but I think
in the movie didn't show this. It's the Holy Spirit
that will choose, you know. I don't know. There's a

(07:00):
tradition that that's done and followed. And I love tradition,
I love ritual, but I don't think the movie was
very accurate. There are a few things in it that
they do. They'll they'll vote right away, you know, come Wednesday,
they'll do a first vote just to see where they're at,
so that will happen. So yeah, and they're sequestered. The

(07:25):
Sixteenth Chapel is beautiful. It's much smaller than I ever
I've been there twice. It just seems so small. And
the beautiful painting on the back wall of the last
judgment I think would be Yeah, it's just beautiful to
look at. So yeah, but I don't. Yeah, I'm not.

(07:46):
I'm not a fan of the movie. I did. I
did finally see it. I wasn't going to but I
did finally see it. But you know, it's Hollywood, but there.
You know, it's part of the Church's tradition, and I
think some of it be because it's behind closed doors.
Our culture today wants everything to be out in the open.
But I think the Holy Spirit needs time to work

(08:08):
and to move, and these cardinals have to be open
to that, so they need to be away from their
phones and people and be with each other.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Okay, do you have opinions about who the next pope
might be?

Speaker 3 (08:20):
I don't. I'm just going to be open to the
and surprised. The Holy Spirit surprises more than once with
this conclave. So I'm just praying for that the cardinals
will be open to whomever the Spirit is moving.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Well, it's a big deal, you know, and I know that.
Oh and then the other thing I have to ask
about is is that crazy AI generated image that rolled
around of Trump this week as the pope. Do you
have any opinions about that?

Speaker 3 (08:50):
Well, do you guess I'll just say foolishness. It was foolishness.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
I think that's fair. Okay, I think that's fair. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Yeah, h Jessica, you have anything to.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Say about that.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
I have a lot I have.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
I have things to say.

Speaker 4 (09:08):
I don't know how appropriate they are. A foolishness.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
I just thought art At first, I thought it was
like a hoax, because I was I just thought, this
is this is ridiculous, nobody could be this just sort
of delusional.

Speaker 3 (09:31):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
And then it turned out it wasn't a hoax, and
I thought, well, he's he's he's not treating I mean
it was offensive. I mean it was offensive to me
and I'm Protestant, so I can only imagine how offensive
it would have been to people of the Catholic faith.
And then I think it was in New York, like

(09:54):
the bishop and I think the cardinal forgive me bath.
I don't know exactly the structure, but but there was
a statement that came out of New York about the
fact that this was mocking and just sort of saying
to Trump like, don't do this.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
So uh, you know, I I feel like I I
shouldn't be shocked by anything anymore.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Now, Yeah, I think Cardinal Dolan did make a statement
from Rome. He uh, you know, all the cardinals have
a church in Rome that they're in so they're saying
masses at their churches in Rome because they're really the
Roman cleric, which I think is just fascinating. But yes,

(10:48):
Cardinal Dolan, I believe did make a statement.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
Okay, yeah, you.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Know, my my dear dad, foolishness is kind of at
the that's his way of being like, this is this
is maybe not redeemable, you know, and I still think
it is redeemable. But when you I think that's a
that's a wonderful way of saying it. And I don't know,
I don't think our president really understood the ramifications of

(11:18):
doing that, you know. I mean, it could have just
you know, it could have been a joke that got
out of hand. If I'm going to offer the hermin
intis of charity, right yeah, m hm mm hmm. But anyhow,
we have a passage to get to you today.

Speaker 3 (11:33):
Don't we We do.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, but you know, we are as a reminder, we
do try to talk about contemporary issues and how they
apply to life in the world, and this is one
of our contemporary issues.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
So yes, and thank you for praying for us as
we as the Catholics, as we await a new pope.
So we appreciate all the prayers.

Speaker 4 (11:56):
Absolutely we will keep offering them.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
Amen, we will. So this is reading from John's Gospel.
Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice. I know them,
and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and
they shall never perish. No one can take them out
of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,

(12:24):
is greater than all, and no one can take them
out of the Father's hand. The Father and I are one.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
Thank you, Thank you. I love this sheep and shepherd
imagery of the Good Shepherd in Jesus. It is my
favorite image in all of Scripture. And I think partly
because I have done a lot of teaching in a
children's formation program called Katechises of the Good Shepherd, and

(12:55):
one of the things it was was actually Cadochysis of
the Good Shepher came out of this really interesting lineage.
You know, we all know about Montassori schools in Maria Montassori,
but the fact is is Maria Montassori, she helped educate
children that people thought were uneducatable, and they were children
of prisoners, and everybody thought that these children were not

(13:18):
smart enough, that like they had no they had no
ability to learn. And so Maria Montassori figured out ways
of working with where the child was in that time
and place in order to teach them. And she got
in touch with one of her really good friends whose
name was Sophia Cavalletti. And Sophia Cavalletti had studied with

(13:41):
one of the great rabbis in Rome. She was this
Hebrew scholar, and Maria Montessori got Cavalletti to do this
work of trying to help and teach Christian formation for
these young children. And one of the things that she
would do, so Cavalletti would do, is she would expose

(14:03):
the children to different materials, and like some of the
materials would be like the stuff that we have in
the euchars, like the patent and the chalice, or the
plate and the wine cup. And she also did these
the parables. And this is one of the parables that
she exposed the children to, which is the good Shepherd

(14:26):
and four children, three all the way up. This is
one of the things, this is one of the stories,
one of our narratives in the scripture that resonates most
deeply with all of us and especially with young children
like this. I mean, this is not, of course the
ninety nine sheep, you know, the good Shepherd leaving the

(14:48):
ninety nine sheep. But this is about the sheep hear
my voice like sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd,
just like my dog knows my voice. And I love
that line too. No one will snatch them out of
my hand. The Good Shepherd has us, and these are

(15:08):
this is, this is for this is for your see,
which is where we are. This is our Good Shepherd
narrative that comes in Easter of this beautiful and very resonant.
I would argue parable and story that that kind of

(15:29):
sticks with all of us.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
I often wonder when I preach on the Good Shepherd text,
you know, which is the namesake text for the church
that I pastor are currently do do we today like
understand that that shepherding metaphor.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
Right?

Speaker 4 (15:57):
Because we we're kind of removed in in our context
from shepherding right, Like we have we have ranches, we
have big farms, but but these are like industrial farms,
and so it's very rare to find like a like

(16:19):
a shepherd, like a nomadic shepherd who who travels with
their sheep. And uh so I often wonder like, how
you know, how do I My my constant question on
this text is like how do I how.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Do I sort of make it?

Speaker 4 (16:42):
I mean they can imagine it, but like how do
I make it sink into their bones? This this understanding?

Speaker 3 (16:50):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (16:51):
You know, so I just I wonder about that.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
I wonder about when it says my shepherd hears are
the sheep here my voice? We live in such a
noisy society. Oh my goodness, turn everything off. People, get
off those screens, get off the phones, shut everything off. Yeah,
when I look at that, I agree with you, Jessica.
Do we really know what it means to allow ourselves

(17:18):
to be shepherd and what a shepherd does? But we
have to be able to hear that voice. I've been
knocked down by the voice before when I wasn't paying attention,
So it's always good to pay attention to the voice
of the shepherd. But I agree, do we know what
it means to allow ourselves to be shepherd? Because I

(17:40):
think today in our society too, we think we're in
charge of everything. We're in charge of our own lives,
our own destiny. We're going to do this. I'm going
to do that. Well, maybe the shepherd has a different
path for you, and to be obedient to that and
be in the Father's will and in the Father's hand always.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
I feel like this is one of the places where
we can look to the children of our church, because
I think little ones know what it's like to be shepherded,
and they know what it's like to know the voice
of somebody who loves them, and they kind of know
what that means, you know. I mean, I think that

(18:24):
that voiceness, right, I know my voice or you know,
those sheep know my voice. That that line. I think
about how my dog knows my voice, my dog knows
my car sound, you know. And even though it's not
shepherd exactly, there are resonances, you know. I think you're

(18:46):
right that we don't exactly understand the whole shepherd culture.
But I think I think there's I mean, there's ways
that I mean, it's not being herded, right, We're not
talking about being herded like you are. If you go
to or you go to with theme park, you're like, okay,
go in this way, you know, go through the turnstiles
and go that way. You know. No, this is this

(19:07):
is a following. This is when we hear somebody's voice
that we know resonates with ours, we follow them.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, you know, and I follow them.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
That's not being pushed. That's not like you know, it's
the shepherd goes first, you know, right.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Right, that's a good point, Molly. I haven't thought of
that before. That it isn't it isn't being herded. It
is it is more following. I hadn't sort of made
that distinction before.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
I mean, I guess, I guess, like you know, the
other bit about the shepherd and all of that is
one of the amazing parts of catechisis of the good Shepherd,
is you don't just stop with with telling the story
of the lost sheep or any of this. You just
kind of go deeper and deeper into this metaphor, and

(20:04):
eventually the child understands that they are the sheep, which
is amazing, Right, they are the sheep, and then who
is the shepherd? The shepherd is Jesus, and then yeah,
absolutely amazing. It's a work where where you exchange the

(20:28):
sheep for people worshiping around the altar and you exchange
the good Shepherd for the bread and the wine. Are
are are eucharistic elements. And I guess I think you're
probably write you two about about how we don't have

(20:50):
a real good understanding of following. But I think there
are times in every person's life when there is just
a recogniz that they have absolutely no control over what's
actually happening, you know, I think so, yeah, I mean,

(21:11):
I just I don't know I'm seeing it right now
because we have we have a couple of people who
are who are dying too young from cancer, and just
like in that moment, what we all really want is
a good shepherd, you know, right, And I guess I
guess I feel like once you've been through that experience,

(21:34):
and once you continue to live in that experience, there
is a possibility, right, some kind of change of heart,
you know, some kind of look. Not only not only
is the good Shepherd faithful to me leading me in
the way I should go, and and I know that voice,

(21:55):
and I know it is a good voice. I know
it is a trustworthy voice. Not only do I have
to love the good Shepherd in that way, but we
also know that the good shepherd is the one who
always is there for us even when we lose our
way deeply, you know.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
Yeah, yeah, And the changes I think our image of
what a good shepherd is that all of a sudden
we think about tenderness and comfort and love rather than
telling me where to go. Well, you have to be
willing to follow. But the tenderness is there, the comfort

(22:36):
is there, the love is there of the good Shepherd.
Because the next line is and I would give them
eternal life and they shall never perish. So the tenderness
and the love and the sacrifice of the lamb, right,
the lamb becomes the good Shepherd. Yeah, it's really a
great image. I'm so glad Molly you bring around the

(22:59):
altar and the eucharistic table because it is the lamb
that was sacrificed that becomes the good Shepherd.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yes, And I think I think the other piece that
we have to remember is that the good Shepherd is
the very first image that our Christian siblings used for Jesus.
The very first image we have of Jesus is Jesus
the Boy Shepherd, and that's in the catacombs in Rome,

(23:26):
and that is the very I mean, all of these
other images that we have of Jesus, Jesus on the cross,
Jesus is Christus rex, which is Jesus like king of
the universe. Our first image is the good Shepherd, and
I don't know, I find this image to be utterly captivating.
That's probably the way I would say it. Well, yeah, well,

(23:51):
I wonder, because you know, like the other piece that
I would also remind us of is that we didn't
read it this morning. But Psalm twenty three is our
psalm for this week, which is the most well known
and well loved of all psalms, you know. And so
in some ways, even though I think, even though we're like, ooh,

(24:11):
the shepherd thing kind of is complicated for us, I
feel like in our very being we know that there
is some deep truth to it, and we know that
this is something we want, even when we maybe think
we don't want it.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
We don't. In the Catholic Church we use some one
hundred for this weekend. We are as people the sheep
of his flock. So okay, to clarify that.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
Good enough, good enough, Well, thank you for joining us
today on soundings and on behalf of Jessica and Beth
and myself Molly, Happy good Shepherd Sunday. And may you
know

Speaker 3 (24:54):
Jesus as the good Shepherd