Soundings May 18 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning, and welcome the Soundings, a public affair presentation
of iHeartMedia. Each week we have an ecumenical discussion and
reflection on the scriptures and how they apply to life
and the world. My name is Shanna Jamal Hollomans, and
I'm the pastor at First Congregational United Church of Christ
in Lowell, Michigan, about twenty five miles east of Grand Rapids.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Two of our.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Regulars are here with me this morning, and I will
invite them to introduce themselves, starting with Father Mike.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
Hi.

Speaker 4 (00:31):
My name is Father Mike Kirkshank. I'm a polished father
Roman Catholic priest serving at the Cathedral Saint Andrew in
the Hardside neighborhood of Grand Rapids.

Speaker 5 (00:39):
And good morning.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
I am Reverend Ruth Belle Olson, and I serve as
a senior minister at Mayflower Congregational Church on the southeast
side of Grand Rapids.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Good morning to both of you.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Knowing we were just talking about what a difference it
makes to be doing this in springtime now, right with
the windows bright filled with sunlight, the green outside, the
birds chirping, It really really makes a big impact, I
think on our on our view of the world on

(01:12):
days when we can see God's face all around us,
as as my dad used to like to say, right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:23):
I was.

Speaker 4 (01:23):
I was tying my fellow Paulus brother Priesta yesterday. I
was like, oh, this makes this makes the winter worth it,
and he's like, well, I don't know about that.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, I might be with him.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, I think we just appreciate it more.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
I actually had someone in a store that was helping
me in a store say that he had moved from
California because it was too much sunshine. I'd never ever
heard anybody say that, and the appreciation for the seasons,

(02:05):
and I just looked at him, like, what kind of
a freak are you to say.

Speaker 5 (02:10):
Too much sunshine?

Speaker 3 (02:13):
Nope, cutting handle all of that sunshine, you had to
move to Michigan.

Speaker 5 (02:18):
But I mean, I can appreciate this the seasons.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
And last week we had one of those really rainy
gray and you kind of like there is a hunker
down and you don't feel like you have to do
anything but just kind of be inside, and you know,
every once in a while that's okay.

Speaker 5 (02:37):
It's just it's re lentless. If you don't see the
sun were so Yeah, it feels like a good Monday.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
They get stuff done that good, good good.

Speaker 5 (02:53):
Well.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
As Ruth mentioned, you know, we record this days before
this airs. But a piece that's been in the news
quite a bit, and I assume will still be in
the news quite a bit in the next weeks to come,
is the the appointment of the first Pope from North America. Uh,
Pope Leo the fourteenth, I imagine, Father Mike, it's it's

(03:15):
got to be a little weird to see the eyes
of the entire world on the Catholic Church and talking
about the Catholic Church, but maybe also a little bit
exciting too. How are how are you feeling about this
change in leadership and this new appointment and the future
as it seems to be presenting itself right now for
the Catholic Church.

Speaker 6 (03:36):
Yeah, I'm very excited. When when.

Speaker 4 (03:41):
I wasn't, I was occupied when like the white smoke
went up and all of that. But I, as you
might imagine, there's a bunch of text messages going around
and uh, and I was looking through and I saw
somebody say it's an American pope, and I was like,
you know, our pope from the United States, and I
was like, nah, like that that's gotta be like fake

(04:02):
news or something like. I did not think that would
be the case. And but it is. And from very
close by, of course too, from Chicago. But somebody, I think,
who's who spent like the last couple of decades, the
last couple of years in Rome, and then before that,

(04:22):
like the last twenty years before that in Peru, and so.

Speaker 6 (04:26):
He's he's certainly.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
I think one of the things that people like about
him being selected is that he's sort of he has
an international viewpoint and in perspective, and he's a missionary
and he's a he's a religious priest as I am,
which I appreciate that. And yeah, I think it's gonna

(04:49):
be great. I mean, people say like, oh, did you
like the selection? I were like, I would have been happy,
honestly with anybody, Like you know, the pope for me
is the pope.

Speaker 6 (04:56):
And I'm gonna I'm gonna love him no matter who
he is. But I think, but I think it's you know, he's.

Speaker 4 (05:06):
I do believe the Holy Spirit picks the right person
for the right time, and I think.

Speaker 6 (05:11):
That he is in and he's he's what we need.

Speaker 4 (05:14):
I think we need somebody who's a missionary, somebody who
can understand different different cultures and can adjust to different
ways of of of living our spiritual lives. And and
you know, I think it seems like he's going to
be a bit more reserved than Pope Francis, And so

(05:36):
I think for for some that's that's helpful. I think
for some Pope Francis was.

Speaker 6 (05:43):
It was a little bit.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
Was could be a little bit confusing, and so I
think for some that that I think, hopefully it will
be a little bit.

Speaker 6 (05:55):
More more measured.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
But but I think, I mean, I think it's telling,
just like the first his first addresses is telling. He
talked about some of the words that stuck out to me,
stuck out to me or well piece he starts with
the peace.

Speaker 6 (06:11):
People with you.

Speaker 4 (06:13):
He spoke about about listening even even though we're using
the word sinodel, which was a big word that Pote
Francis used, about listening to one another and to you know,
being a missionary church and being one that is very
close to those who suffer. So I think all of
those were we're quite telling about what he plans this

(06:38):
to be. And and I don't know exactly, and I
haven't heard actually why exactly. He may have chosen the
name Leo, but Leo the prior Leoli the thirteenth was
he wrote an encircles called Room Novarum, which was really
the first the first one of a series of people

(07:01):
and cyclicals on social justice. So he kind of started
the Catholic social justice movement at the highest level. And
and so that, you know, I think I think there's
probably a link there that he appreciates that tradition and wants.

Speaker 6 (07:19):
To continue it. Yeah, it's a lot of things to
be a lot of things to be excited about with
the new pope. And you know, a lot of.

Speaker 4 (07:27):
Americans are I think rightfully excited. I mean just there's
a lot of pride. You know, the pope comes to
your own country. I mean there's a lot of pride
to that. So it's fun, it's good.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah, question, father Mike. One thing you said is that
he's a religious pope. What does that mean, like as
opposed to what other are kind of of Yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:46):
Leader, Yeah, sure, I mean it's not like it wouldn't
be a major stinction for most people. But so post
France's actually was as well. PO France was the first
one in a long time. So because Francis was a
Jesuit and Leo is an Augustinian, and so most popes
have been what we called diocesan priests. They started as

(08:09):
diocese in priests, and and so they they belonged to
some diocese, some region around the world, whereas Pope Francis
with the Jesuits and Poplio with the Augustinians belonged to
a religious community who have a particular mission they live
in They live in community with each other, and they

(08:31):
are likely to be moving, moving around or greater distances
a lot more. And so I think the into the policy.
We also are are of that same mold, I guess,
and and and I think we I guess we appreciate that.
I appreciate that because I have these other brothers that

(08:54):
are supporting me. I you know, I I know kind
of the struggles it is, but to live with other
priests and the joys and all of that. And so
I think that that allows us a kind of compassionate
empathy to have one another that I think can also
translate into into our ministry. And so so yeah, so

(09:20):
he's that's that's kind of where where his perspective.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Is oh, thank you, I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, for those of us looking into the Catholic Church,
you know, we don't under always understand those idiosyncrasies and
the ways the structure is set up.

Speaker 6 (09:33):
Yes, of course, of course, that's so funny.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
I have the exact same question and I wrote it
down religious priest. I was like, are aren't all priests religious?

Speaker 6 (09:42):
Yeah, it's funny. It's a funny term.

Speaker 5 (09:44):
Okay, a short short form.

Speaker 4 (09:47):
Yeah, a priest who was part of the religious.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
Order is kind of yeah, I know, that makes perfect sense.
My daughter lives in Chicago, and so she was home
for Mother's Day, and all the memes, all Chicago pope
memes are so gaid with a white Sox fan, not
a Cubs fan, like they are all these, you know,
and all the people that went to high school with him,
and all these jokes about you know, you went to

(10:13):
high school and you were MATHI.

Speaker 5 (10:14):
Passed with the pope.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
I mean, all these like, you know, funny, funny. So
we kind of got to kick out of that. Like,
I think it's.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
So easy to.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Look at I mean, for anybody in a position of
religious authority and kind of dehumanize them, not in not
in a negative sense, but in a superseding sense, and
to forget I mean obviously something like the Pope is
a very holy man, right, but still human, and I

(10:49):
think we forget like, oh yeah, no, he was.

Speaker 5 (10:52):
He went to high school. But it's weird. Yeah, he
went to high high school. In the sausage cry like
a White Sox fan.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
You know, like that that is so healthy and normal
and lovely. And for all of us who love to
put people on pedestals, that we are made to worship God,
not to worship other humans. Yeah, that is just a
really helpful reminder that people can be inspiring and other

(11:19):
humans can be really helpful in our spiritual journey, and
of course, of course, of course, but to remember God
as God and other people are not.

Speaker 5 (11:26):
I think that's just a really good reminder to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, reminder.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
I've just thought thought about that all about this week, like,
oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, to me, I've been I think, I mean, there's
a lot of things I love that I've read about
this Pope that I'm excited to see him leading the largest,
you know, church in the world. But what's really excited
me is just knowing about his African roots, that he's
the first pope that we know of. I mean, maybe
there have been other I'm sure there's been others with

(12:01):
African roots, but just learning the story of his family history,
how his mother's parents came up in sort of the
Great Migration. A little bit before that, they had lost
their property in New Orleans to eminent domain, which is
the story of many black families in this country, and
started a new life where they were able to pass

(12:23):
as white.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
And yeah, it's just.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
It's wonderful to know that, Like you said, you know,
Pastor Ruth, we tend to put our religious leaders on
a pedestal and sometimes forget that they come from families.
They come from communities, just like the rest of us do.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
And this pope comes.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
From the Black community in the United States.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
It may not be that near to him because.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Of his family's ability to pass, but just knowing that
his roots are there, I don't know, I think that's
really powerful, especially for people of color in the United
Slates States who have that shared history. It's yeah, I
think it's just a beautiful reminder that that we're all connected,

(13:08):
you know.

Speaker 6 (13:09):
God.

Speaker 4 (13:09):
I was just gonna mention one one sort of a
sad thing. I recognized about this because I was thinking
about his home parish, his home church, where he grew
up and where he was an Aultar server, and and
I just I was just thinking about like my own
home parish, like if somebody from there became the pope,

(13:31):
like that would just be like so mind blowing that
like the little kid who was Aulder.

Speaker 6 (13:35):
Server was was became pope.

Speaker 4 (13:37):
But I was so sad to hear that they had
because of just changing demographs all that they had to
close the church.

Speaker 6 (13:45):
Uh some years ago.

Speaker 4 (13:47):
I think I think it's still standing. I hope they
like just open them back up as like a shrine
or something like do something with it. I hope they
still own it and all that, so they can do
something with it, because that's you know, I mean, that's
the first first poll from this country, and I think
it's you know, something to celebrate.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
So yeah, for sure. Yeah, Well, let's get into our
passage this morning.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
We are reading today from John thirteen, which is in
the story of Jesus' last supper with his disciples. So
we're going back a little bit this week in the electionaries,
and I will read verses thirty one through thirty five,
and this is what happens just after Jesus predicts that
he will be betrayed by one of his disciples, and

(14:36):
Judas realizes it's him and walks out. Starting at verse
thirty one, when Judas had gone out, Jesus said, now
the son of Man has been glorified, and God has
been glorified in him. If God has been glorified in him,
God will also glorify him in himself, and will glorify

(15:00):
him at once, Little children, I am with you only
a little longer, you will look for me. And as
I said to the Jews, so now I say to
you where I am going, you cannot come. I gave
you a new commandment that you love one another, just
as I have loved you. You should also love one another.

(15:22):
By this, everyone will know that you are my disciples
if you have love for one another. This is the
gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thanks Peter, God. So
I always find the words that Jesus chose to say
in these moments that you know, and we know you know.
Reading these stories again and again, we're big turning points

(15:43):
right in his story, in his life before his crucifixion
and it's interesting that this is what he chose to
say as Judas left the room and walked away to
betray him, that he turned the conversation toward being glorified
and then again toward love.

Speaker 3 (16:02):
And it's so hard when you pull, when you pull
these verses out of the context, right, you get this
little snippet, and it's always hard. It's it's always hard,
hard for me to think, Okay, wait, Judas, like we're
they're eating and and there's the the bread, and there's.

Speaker 5 (16:26):
The foot washing.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
You've got Judas, and there's the money and the there's
all this stuff happening. And so Judas leaves and it's night,
I mean, right in verse thirty, it talks about it tonight, and.

Speaker 5 (16:39):
There's all this like visual happening.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
Right, it's when it's night and it's dark and it's ominous,
and there's all right, there's all this mood happening that
I think, you know, John is intentional and setting that tone.

Speaker 5 (16:54):
And the mounting tension of.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
Course, right, all of this tension in the narrative that
Jesus knows this is the end. Right, everything's ramping, ramping,
ramping up. I can't imagine. I just can't imagine you
bought these dumb, dumb disciples who just can't They still
don't get it.

Speaker 5 (17:12):
And they're sitting around like, you know, you've got the denier.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
And you've got the people fall asleep and you've got
right They like, what is Jesus thinking?

Speaker 5 (17:22):
Look you like, this is my team?

Speaker 3 (17:25):
No, like like, this is who I've got theirs, right,
this is who I've got, and this is how you know,
this is when I'm building my my church on this team.

Speaker 5 (17:38):
Yet yep, yep, this is who we've got.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (17:45):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
And I think for all of us sometimes we look
at our congregations like this is who we right, I
got looks at us, right, this is what we've got.
We've got these people to get along, they have to
let each other.

Speaker 5 (17:59):
Yeah, yeah, that's changed.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
And then that term, I mean what jumped out to
me just as you were reading in verse thirty three
little children Yeah, little children, little children Yeah, And all
the verses that talk about come to me as like
the kids get it somehow, the kids get it. Yeah,
that phrase jumped out. Okay, little children, yeah, with you

(18:23):
a little longer. And as I said to the chows,
going to say to you, right, here's the lesson kids.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (18:29):
I think that phrase it right in the middle of
that text.

Speaker 6 (18:32):
Yeah, that is really interesting. Why you know why he
would he would why he would call them children? And yeah,
there is there is that piece that you know he
has said that, you.

Speaker 4 (18:45):
Know, let the children come to him and if you're
not like a child, you won't you won't enter the
Kingdom of God. And but also you know there's a
sense that children don't quite understand. And so is he
is in what way is he is he calling them
children in the way that like he needs to like

(19:06):
speak at their level, like speak down to their level,
or is he calling them children? Because you know, these
you're the ones who I'm drawn closer to myself at
this at this time, and uh and I watch you
to hear this message, you know, I want to hear clearly.

(19:27):
You know, I will only be with you a little
while longer. And so so like he's I don't know,
whispering into their ears like like like I want to
I want to, you know, I want to let you
down easy. I know this is a lot, this is
all very confusing to understand, but let me make this
clear that like I'm going away and that's that's going

(19:48):
to hurt.

Speaker 5 (19:48):
I guess yeah, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (19:52):
When you talk to your little kid, you know, you're like,
do you strip it down to the most, but do
you just say here, I have to be very clear
with you and this. But then again, I think sometimes
kids understand and in spiritual realm, I think kids do
understand things way better.

Speaker 5 (20:10):
I mean, you know, you can get.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
Way in your head and I think sometimes sometimes kids
understand God better than we do. I think some kids
have a spiritual percent they don't have all the layers
of cynicism and criticism like that. I think I think
children often have a spiritual perception that adults don't have.

Speaker 5 (20:28):
Right, So it kind of goes both ways. Do yeah,
for sure, I don't know. But maybe there's a maybe
that means there's a double meaning there.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
It's also you know interesting what he's what he says
to them when he reminds them that their little children
to him, and then he says, where I'm going you
cannot come. Yeah, Like he's saying I've got to leave
you now, I'm leaving you to your own devices. I'm
not going to be here to point things out to you,
to take.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Care of you in the way that I have.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
And then he leaves them with this commandment to love
one another. Right, look around you and love one another.
That's yeah, to me, that's pretty profound that that Jesus
leaves them with one with one word, and that word
is love.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
And it's not without an example, as I have loved you. Yeah,
And you know, I've been so challenged and I don't
even know where I heard this.

Speaker 5 (21:34):
It's been maybe a year or so now that.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
Growing up in the church, it's always, you know, do
you love Jesus? How much you loved Jesus? In the
mark of a Christian is loving Jesus and love Jesus
loved Jesus, loved Jesus. And I had someone say to me,
the mark of a Christian isn't how much you love Jesus.
It's how much you can love Judas. Right, love Jesus

(22:01):
isn't harsh, Yeah, it's do you love Judas? Because in
the acids you see Jesus still extending I mean he's
still offered the bread and the cup to Judas. Yeah, Yeah,
I loved you. I have still loved Judas. Yeah right, yeah,

(22:22):
he didn't reject Judas. No, And that I think is
the real test if you can love one another, if
you can love the Judases in your midst Yeah, that's
actually what we're called to.

Speaker 6 (22:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (22:35):
Ouch, yeah right, and it's.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
It's I mean, it said love one another, but if
you look at the larger context, it's loved the world,
love your enemies, love.

Speaker 6 (22:47):
Right.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
Yeah, if you look at you know, again, placing these
verses in the larger context, he's saying love as I've loved,
and look at I just love that guy, the guy
that just walked out, that guy with the person coins
who's the betrayer. I love that guy.

Speaker 5 (23:02):
Yikes.

Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yeah, I love that guy too.

Speaker 5 (23:08):
Uh yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
The challenge, that's the challenge. Right.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
So I don't know how does that set with you
guys that I mean, do you agree with that or
do you feel like that's I don't know, I've just
been sitting with that, like as a challenge.

Speaker 5 (23:24):
You can love Jesus, yeah, but can Judas?

Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (23:28):
I mean that resonates as really true with me. You know,
I grew up in an inter faith household, but the
Christian Church I grew up and was very focused on again,
believe in Jesus.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
If you believe in Jesus, you're good, You're going to heaven.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
It was very focused on life after death and salvation,
not as much with how we live now and what
our lives look like now. But my Muslim father really
showed me what it meant to of the judases in
your life. Right when I was in high school, my

(24:05):
brother and I were the victims of some hate crimes
and targeting because of our Arab and Muslim ancestry. And
we went to a small Christian high school that we
eventually had to leave because of death threats. And I
remember when one night when these boys who were harassing
us and calling us names were they were threatening to

(24:27):
burn across in our yard, and we had a police
officer stationed outside the house and they were calling our
house making threats, and my dad refused to hang up
the phone. Like I was just like, why are you
even talking to them? And he just kept going back
and forth with them, back and forth with them, talking
with them, listening to them, and I was like, why

(24:49):
waste your time on them, you know, Like I was baffled,
And I just remember sitting in that living room with
my mom and my brother and listening to him and
just being blown away at the respect he was showing
them to actually listen to the people who were threatening
us and to try to reason with them like they
were equals.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
And just going, wow, what is that?

Speaker 1 (25:14):
And I was so frustrated in the moment, but looking back, going,
you know, that's what faith is. It's called to continue
to engage with those even those who are hurting us,
right in spite of the fact they're hurting us in
that moment, not walking away in frustration, but respecting them
enough to listen, right, you know, like Father Mike said

(25:36):
talking about what our new pope had just said in
his first address, listening to people. That is a profound
way to show respect and love to people, to actually
listen to them, right. So for me, I just think
of that example from my dad that I was privileged
to see write somebody who lived his faith, who lived

(25:59):
his love for God by loving other people by listening.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
It was just a powerful example for me to have
growing up. Any other thoughts on this as we close
out our conversation, It's.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
A huge challenge and call to all of us that
the world needs to see us love one another, all
of us who claim to follow Christ. Yeah, I think
that's that's where the world will see Christ on display,
when we can actually love one another.

Speaker 5 (26:26):
It's pretty clear.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
And that's another thing I love about this pope. I'm
just you can tell I'm fangirling all about Polio, but
that he lived in Peru for so long as a missionary,
and he served and loved that community, you can tell
with such honor and respect. You know, the interviews you've
heard from people who lived in that community and really humble,

(26:49):
humble circumstances and extreme poverty, and he loved those people
enough he became a citizen of Peru. Right, he became
fluent in Spanish in ways that you know, not a.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
Missionary does that.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
And he really he made his home among them. And
that what a way to show love. Right, to make
your home among people, even in really difficult circumstances. That's
our calling as Christians, and that God will richly bless
us for it too, Right, not in the ways that
the world considers blessings, but in other ways. I think

(27:23):
that's a beautiful example that we have in this new pope,
but that I hope we all find heart and courage
to live each day with well on behalf of Pastor
Ruth and Father Mike. Thank you for joining us today.
We pray that this Sunday will be a blessed day
of sabbathrust for you, that you will see God's face
all around you and find courage and heart to listen

(27:47):
and to love others the way that Christ has loved
us