Soundings May 4 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning, and welcome to Soundings, a public affairs presentation
of iHeartMedia. Each week we have an ecumenical discussion and
reflection on the scriptures and how they apply to life
and the world. My name is Shannon Jamal Hollomans, and
I'm the pastor of First Congregational United Church of Christ
in Lowell, Michigan, about twenty five miles east of Grand Rapids.

(00:23):
I have two of our regulars here with me this morning,
and I will invite them to introduce themselves, starting with
Father Mike.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
My name is Father Mike Krikshink. I'm a Catholic priest,
a lost father, serving at the Cathedral Saint Andrew in
the heartside neighborhood of Grand Rapids.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Good morning morning.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
I am Reverend Ruth Bell Olson, and I serve as
the senior minister at Mayflower Congregational Church on the southeast
side of Grand Rapids.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Good morning to you both.

Speaker 4 (00:52):
Hello, Good morning.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Feels like it's been a big couple weeks of news
for the church with the with the death of Father
of Pope Francis and all the changes that means in
the Catholic Church. The upcoming conclave. Father Mike how have
you been, How have you been managing.

Speaker 4 (01:13):
All of this? It was very sad.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
I was very sad when I heard the news. It
wasn't totally unexpected. He was in the hospital for a
month or so quite recently, but it just happened so suddenly. Anyway,
that it was on Easter Monday, the day the day
before he was.

Speaker 4 (01:34):
Out and about.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
He was amongst the people and the on Easter Sunday
and Saint Peter Square, and so it seemed like he
was at least stable, and then all of a sudden,
like early the next morning, we hear the news that
he's that he's gone, and so.

Speaker 4 (01:50):
Yeah, so it's sad.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
I'm here with other people. He was I'd like to
pull right before I entered the seminary. And and so
in my early years of seminary he was. It was something, uh,
he brought something very fresh, I think, and kind of
bold in a way. And I remember we were studying
my first year his first writing called The Joy of

(02:15):
the Gospel, and and we were just really excited about
it because it was it was it was all about
spreading God's good news in a very joyful manner, and
that's what we all were signing up to do.

Speaker 4 (02:29):
That's what we all wanted to do. So he was.
He was. He really helped me, especially through.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Those early years of the seminary, which you know can
be it can be difficult knowing if this is what's
right for you, and and uh and so it.

Speaker 4 (02:46):
Was he was.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
He was.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
Certainly his presence and his leadership really really helped me
through that. So so yeah, it was it was sad
to sad to hear that news. But we're still kind
of in the in morning phase. I think it's just coincidental,
but I see that we're all wearing black today. So

(03:08):
but but we do have black bunting in front of
our church and then the conclave they call it, which
is the one which is the meeting of cardinals that
decides the next pope that's starting this week. But yeah,
I haven't quite got there yet. But I'm just still
more I think I'm still kind of mourning that loss

(03:29):
because he was an important figure for me.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah, that's understandable. I feel like for all people of faith.
He was such a powerful figure in just the radical
joy and love. Like like you mentioned right that he
approached leadership of the church with he really was a pope.
I feel like that all all Christians could look up

(03:53):
to and admire and want to emulate in so many ways.
I early on in his ministry or when he became pope,
he released a book called The Name of God Is Mercy,
and that one really had a profound impact on me
and my ministry, just the focus of Christ being mercy

(04:16):
and the way he lived that with his life, in
the ways that we are called to live that with
our lives. For me, that was really impactful. And Yeah,
a dear friend of mine I used to work with
was a Catholic and she had this little bobblehead of
Pope Francis on her desk at work, and we called

(04:36):
him Papa Francesco. And Yeah, every time he did something
in the news like wonderful, we would talk about it
together because I feel like he did that quite often,
really showed us what we're called to do to show
the light of God's love in our communities. Yeah, how
about you, Ruth.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, I just keep thinking the word humility, just keeps
or braiding when I think of him, and I all
the kind of jokes and memes that actually are are
so true of his death being on Monday because he
didn't want to take anything away from Eastern Jesus, you know,
give Jesus holiday and then I'll die the next day. Yeah,

(05:18):
of course, it's sort of almost sacriligious a joke about this,
but that such a life of humility and service, and
when you get to really the top job, the top
religious job, really of all jobs, and to approach it
with such humility is a model, I think for all
of us who have any kind of seat of religious

(05:41):
authority in any kind of setting, to remember that that
is a job of service and servanthood. To see that
modeled and essentially the top office is really beautiful, beautiful thing,
and it's not always true when we look at models
around us, that's not always true. So yeah, yeah, beautiful,

(06:05):
beautiful legacy for sure, Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
But Father Mike, I have thought of you often and
your position and your role, and I'm grateful to know
you and to know your contacts a little bit through
our our time together every other week. And it's a lot,
it's heavy time.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
And please know that, you know, churches around the world
are praying for for our Catholic sisters and brothers, and
the big changes in the days ahead and just praying
that that Christ will continue to lead all of this,
which we know that he will, but that people will
feel that peace and that sense of assurance right as

(06:46):
as you grieve this incredible pope and look to the
days ahead with a new one.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
It's interesting I was I was in Chicago a couple
of days ago and and drove has one of the
cathedrals there and saw the black bunting with all the
fan fere for Easter, you know, all the signs of
resurrection and and then the juxtaposition. For some reason, I

(07:13):
know this like in my head and I'll actually I
know this, but to see to drive by and see
the visual caught me so off guard. I don't know why,
uh that visual in particular, And maybe it was just
being a different city in passing different church, but that
shouldn't be such a warmer what's going on? But I

(07:35):
did have this like that. What my first thought was,
why is that black there?

Speaker 1 (07:40):
It's Easter?

Speaker 2 (07:44):
And the reality, right, we live and we have the
real the reality that we live, we live in the
bath and right and holding that tension of death and
life and resurrection is real, but also death is too,
and right that there's black bunting and and and he

(08:05):
has risen. Yeah, it's streaky, yeah, yeah, streaky.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
I celebrated a wedding on Saturday, the same day as
his funeral, and so it's a little.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
So that's that same point it is, you know, you
kind of we mourn, but yet we we live our lives,
you know, we we we still celebrate while we more.

Speaker 4 (08:33):
And so it's yeah, holding holding up all those things.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
And they don't cancel each other out. It's not a
zero some game, right, the lie that that life is
like that that Nope, Nope, they sit side by side
that that somehow we hold all these things and there's
space for all of it.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, exactly. With that, let's let's go into our gospel
reading for today. We are in the Book of John
chapter twenty one, and we will be reading verses one
through nineteen. After these things, Jesus showed himself again to
the disciples by the sea of Galilee, and he showed

(09:15):
himself in this way. Gathered there together were Simon Peter Thomas,
called the twin Nathaniel of cana in Galilee, and the
sons of Zebedee, and two others of his disciples. Simon
Peter said to them, I'm going fishing. They said to him,
we will go with you. They went out and got

(09:37):
into the boat, but that night they caught nothing. Just
after daybreak, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples
did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to them, children,
you have no fish, have you? They answered him no.
He said to them, cast the net to the right

(09:58):
side of the boat and you will find them. So
they cast it, and now they were not able to
haul it in because there were so many fish. That disciple,
whom Jesus loved, said to Peter, it is the Lord.
When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he
put on his outer garment, for he had taken it off,

(10:19):
and jumped into the sea. But the other disciples came
into the boat dragging the net full of fish, for
they were not far from the land, only about one
hundred yards off. When they had gone ashore, they saw
a charcoal fire there with fish on it and bread.
Jesus said to them, bring some of the fish that

(10:40):
you have just caught. So Simon Peter went aboard and
hauled the net ashore full of large fish, one hundred
and fifty three of them, and though there were so many,
the net was not torn. Jesus said to them, come
and have breakfast. Now none of the disciples dared to
ask him, who are you, because they knew it was

(11:02):
the Lord. Jesus came and took the bread and gave
it to them, and did the same with the fish.
This was now the third time that Jesus appeared to
the disciples after he was raised from the dead. When
they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, Simon
son of John, do you love me more than these?

(11:25):
He said to him, yes, Lord, you know that I
love you. Jesus said to him, feed my lambs. A
second time, he said to him, Simon, son of John,
do you love me? And said to him, yes, Lord,
you know that I love you. Jesus said to him,

(11:46):
tend my sheep. He said to him the third time, Simon,
son of John, do you love me. Peter felt hurt
because he said this to him a third time, and
he said to him, Lord, you know everything. You know
that I love you. Jesus said to him, feed my sheep.

(12:08):
Very truly, I tell you. When you were younger you
used to fasten your own belt to go wherever you wished.
But when you grow old, you will stretch out your
hands and someone else will fasten a belt around you
and take you where you do not wish to go.
He said this to indicate the kind of death by
which he would glorify God. After this, he said to him,

(12:30):
follow me. This is the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanks to God, such a powerful story. This is one
that I really love to read every time it comes
up in the electionary. There's so much going on there.
The one that really stands out to me is the
line where Jesus is talking to the disciples, or Jesus

(12:53):
is approaching the disciples, but they haven't yet recognized that
it was Jesus. Right. I was in New York City
last week and there's just people everywhere right in New York,
people passing you on the street, and I couldn't help
but thinking, you know, every time I passed someone, especially
someone who was unhoused or needed help, and thinking, you know,

(13:17):
any of these people could be Jesus, anyone. Everyone bears
the image of God, but anyone could be Jesus, And
would I recognize would I recognize him when I saw him.
How about you both? What strikes you here?

Speaker 3 (13:31):
There's a lot here and there's a lot of like
things that harken me back to other parts of the gospel.
I kind of I don't know if they're men's way
or not, but just thinking about this comes from another gospel,
not John's. But when Jesus first meets Peter and Andrew

(13:55):
and that's them, he has them cast their nets out
to catch fish. So that's when he first meets them.
And now his resurrectedself, it's the same kind of a
miracle that he's performing. And you have Peter jumping into
the water, which for me is a reminder of Jesus
trying to walk on water to meet him.

Speaker 4 (14:15):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
And then and then the.

Speaker 4 (14:18):
The meal.

Speaker 3 (14:20):
With the fish just reminds me of the the multiplication
of the lows and the fish.

Speaker 4 (14:25):
And so.

Speaker 3 (14:27):
This this story and it's really just the first part
of the story, and then the second part has his
own riches to it, but the first part is just
like kind of just for me, picks out different parts
of Jesus's ministry with these with his disciples, and it
is just beautiful to like, it's kind of walking walking

(14:49):
down memory lane for me anyway, as I as I
read this, and it's like, oh, yeah, that's he did
that America when he first met them, and Jesus he
did I am in Peter up when he tried to
walk on water and.

Speaker 4 (15:02):
He did do that multiplication of loads. And now he
says record resurrect itself.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
He's still the same, the same person, but he's bringing
them into something even even fuller. It's a continuation but
also a greater fullness to life than they had before.
So yeah, this first part I just really it's it's
kind of like walking down memory lane for me.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
I was totally struck with that as well. It's like
where it's like greatest hits put back again. And he's
really funny. Ah even calling them children. Where where does
Jesus refer to children? And how does Jesus you know,

(15:49):
he rebukes the disciples and when they're telling the children
to go away, and he says no, no, no, no,
the children are welcome, and then here he calls them children.
Like even just addressing them as children is such a
funny nomenclature in this situation. And again, how they know him,
don't know him? Recognize him, don't recognize him? You see

(16:10):
that kind of riven throughout the story, especially post resurrection,
like they they don't see him, and then they see him,
they kind of recognize his voice, they kind of don't.
Isn't that kind of how we are too, like like
we kind to get it, we kind of don't.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
And that whole weird thing.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
About Peter being naked? Yeah, yeah, kind of HARKing back
to Adam, Yeah, is there a thing about being naked
and that Peter being of course, Peter has all this
shame about and then we of course later in that
in those verses we have this of course do you

(16:50):
love me? The three times? And Peter's denial three times?
But how weird this detail? Is that really even necessary?
You're thinking, what that Peter was jumping in the water
and you have his clothes on? Who cares? But it
somehow is a detail that is included. So then you
think why there is something there? Right? Otherwise why would
the author include that? So I automatically go to who else?

(17:13):
Who else is naked? And it was kind of important, well, Adam?
And why was he because of shame? And who's carrying shame? Well?
Peter clearly. Then they go to this do you love me?

Speaker 1 (17:25):
Do you love me? Do you love me? Why is it?

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Three times? And then Peter's line you know you know everything?

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Did?

Speaker 2 (17:36):
He say back the third time, Well, he's so exasperated,
why do you keep asking me? And then he says
that just such a clear line, Well Lord, you know everything?

Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, ooh yeah. Right. And I think, as
you know, as you say that, pastor Ruth, that takes me,
you know, back where you said he approaches them as children, right,
he says, children, you have no fish, have you?

Speaker 2 (17:59):
Right?

Speaker 1 (18:00):
It's that I think, reminder that God, Jesus does know everything,
and that we can rely on that, right, and we
can be, as you said, unashamed before God. That that playfulness.
I was reading a lot recently about you know, the
call to be creative and to tune into it, you

(18:22):
know what God is saying, and to do things like
writing and painting and engaging in the arts. Right with
that creativity and tapping into it, and that a lot
of it is about tapping into our inner children, right,
because when your children, you run, you play, you enjoy life,
you have fun, you're naked, and you're not ashamed, right,

(18:44):
that it's there's just something to that, and I think
that's part of the call of faith, right to be
like children with God, to rely fully on God. And
and because we rely fully on God, we don't have
to be ashamed. It's it's yeah, and that's it's something
too as we think about the legacy of Pope Francis,

(19:05):
that was something that he really tapped into well, right,
the call to have joy and to be unashamed and
to live unashamed before God. There was an event last
year where Pope Francis called a bunch of American comedians
to the Vatican City and they all met with him,
and it was just purely for joy. Right. It's this

(19:27):
group of like Jimmy Fallon and James Corden, you know,
these American comedians you would never expect to be gathered
before the Pope, most of them them not Christian, and
he just wanted them there to laugh with them and
to talk with them. And I think, wow that I
feel like in a lot of ways, that's our call
as people of faith, is to find joy, right.

Speaker 4 (19:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
I like this in this passage to the Three Times,
he asks Peter if he loves him, and you know, again,
it does harken back to the three time is that
Peter denies Jesus, and it's and it's a kind of
redemption in a way for Peter.

Speaker 4 (20:07):
But also like probably only those.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
Of us who have been in the seminary know a
little bit about the the intricacies of the of the
word uh love in in this context and in Greek
and Greek, there's more than one word. And the first
two times Jesus uses the word agape, which is sort
of like a sacrificial, selfless love, and and Peter responds

(20:38):
with philio, which is a more of brotherly friendship kind
of love. And so he's not quite there. He's not
quite where Jesus wants him to be. And so the
third time Jesus asks, he uses philia, which is which
is what what Peter was using. He kind of he
kind of meets Peter where he's at and he's like, Okay,

(21:00):
I realized, Peter, you're not quite ready for this. And
that's why he says, well, you're going to be led.
You know, You're you're gonna have to be ready for
this because this is what's going to happen, and this
is how you're going to die. But I like how
he he meets Peter where he's at and says.

Speaker 4 (21:17):
Okay, you know you love me in that way. That's
good and I I appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
And I want you to to feed my lambs and
my sheep, and I want you to.

Speaker 4 (21:31):
I want you to know that you know it's going
to be it's going to be hard.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
For you, but you know that I love you, and
I know that you have this love for me, and
that's what's going to bring you through it, right, And then.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
We know the story, I mean, how Peter really does
step up, right, and we see the story of Peter
really really growing and expanding and becoming really becoming the
rock in so many ways it's such a such a
do fist and then really does become kind of the

(22:05):
rock that really does can step into this this prophecy
that Jesus saw for him.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
So that gives us hope.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
When we're bubbling along and we're.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
That there's hope for all of us.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Right, yeah, wow?

Speaker 1 (22:26):
And one other detail, you know, some scholars say that
the fact that it says they brought in one hundred
and fifty three fish is telling as well, right, Because
while some scholars discount this. I really like this idea
that the one hundred and fifty three represent all the

(22:46):
peoples of the world. Right, Some say that there were
one hundred and fifty three different people groups in the
world at the time when this happened, and that that
is symbolic of the fact that the casting of the nets,
the sharing of God's love with people would be global,
and that there would be people around the world from
every corner who would be part of this church that

(23:10):
Christ had established, that Peter would be the rock of right.
It's it's another beautiful I feel like point signal sign
to something bigger that's going on here as well.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
I think as we talk about Prope Francis too, I
think fitting it. We're talking about Peter and Pope Francis
being a successor of Peter, and and now we see
two thousand years later this. You know, as you mentioned
a global a global church, you know that's it really has.
The Christian faith has reached to all all parts of

(23:48):
the world, and so this this vision that you mentioned
has come to come to fruition. You know, we're not
done in building up the Kingdom of God. But it's
it's it's it's it's born, it's born, and great fruits
mm hmm. And Pa Parancis has been a big part
of that.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yes, the reach is global, yep. Yeah. And the command
is simple, right follow me mm hmm. We can make
it so complicated, yes, So like follow, follow the example,
right follow mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
And like children again right mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
And again the same, the same thing he said to
Peter at the beginning, he says it to him again, yeah,
m hm.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
And and just the reminder, there's so much beauty and
goodness around us, you know. We see that, especially in
this season as all the trees are now budding here
in Michigan, and flowers are poking up and more birds
are are at our feeders, that there is beauty and
goodness enjoy around us, and God simply calls us to

(25:04):
rest in God's provision, in God's love, enjoy, and to
live before God with joy, unashamed. That really is the
heart of what we're called to is people of faith,
to be people who don't have all the answers necessarily,
but fully rely on God and God's provision and God's

(25:27):
love for us, and to share that radical message of love. However,
we're called to with people around the world. So on
behalf behalf of Pastor Ruth and Father Mike. Thank you
for joining us today, and we pray that as you
continue to journey through this Easter season, that you will
see tangible signs of God's love all around you