The Fall of 12 to 24 - Tales from 1265 Ep. 3

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Episode Transcript

(00:02):
This is Tales from twelve sixty five, a production of iHeartRadio Podcasts with presenting
sponsor Nicolay Law, your local awardwinning injury lawyers. If you've been injured,
get Nicolay, Wisconsin's winning team oflawyers that will get you back in
the game. Your host for Talesfrom twelve sixty five is Doug Russell.

(00:23):
He was arguably the greatest player inPackers franchise history. But how Aaron Rodgers
got to Green Bay in the firstplace was a combination of foresight, errors
in judgment, perceived arrogance, andjust playing dumb luck. Our story doesn't
begin in Chico, California, onDecember second, nineteen eighty three, even
though that's when Aaron Charles Rogers began. Our story does start, however,

(00:46):
and the weeks leading up to thetwo thousand and five NFL Draft, when
the team Rodgers grew up rooting four, had a need a quarterback and the
number one overall pick their choices Utah'sAlex Smith or Rogers just starred for the
last two seasons just across the Bayat cal Berkeley. We all know what
happened, but why and how?In two thousand and four the San Francisco

(01:17):
forty nine Ers were a league worsttwo and fourteen. Head coach Dennis Ericson
and general manager Terry Donahue, bothcollege football legends, could not successfully manage
the transition to the NFL, soMike Nolan, an eighteen year NFL assistant
coach whose father Dick, had alsobeen the forty nine ers head coach in
the sixties and seventies, was broughtin and given complete control as his own

(01:40):
general manager. The forty nine Ershad the first pick in the draft,
and with two blue chip prospects attheir greatest positional need, it was obvious
that Nolan was going quarterback, butwhich quarterback would he take? This was
Mike Nolan's first head coaching job andfirst stint as a general manager. He

(02:01):
was also a coach, though witha defensive mindset, having been a coordinator
for the Giants, Redskins, Jets, and Ravens before coming to San Francisco.
So Nolan enlisted the help of hisnew offensive coordinator, a quarterback guru,
if you will, someone who hadbeen a quarterbacks coach for a pair
of guys who had wind up inKenton. One of them was Joe Montana,

(02:21):
who many considered to be the greatestquarterback of all time. He was
also a coach for an eventual leagueMVP and Rich Cannon. In other words,
this was the perfect offensive mind tohelp make this decision that offensive coordinator
Mike McCarthy, Well, the twothousand and five draft really came down to
the quarterback position. Obviously, AaronRodgers and Alex Smith. We were going

(02:44):
to draft one of the two quarterbacks. We felt that they were the two
best players in the draft that year, but there was no consensus on who
that quarterback should be. McCarthy speakingto NFL Films several years after the two
thousand and five draft, with hindsightbeing twenty twenty, but in the moment,
it was easy to see the confusion, especially when you consider the quarterback

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play on the college landscape at thetime. Jason White won the Heisman Trophy
in two thousand and three and wasa finalist again in two thousand and four,
but his bad knees prevented him fromeven being drafted, and the guy
who did win the Heisman and thatliner, opted to remain at USC for
another year. Aaron, in hisevaluation, he was one that I think
the law. I know, forme personally, the longer I went in

(03:28):
through the evaluation, the more themore I liked them. In regards to
his workout, I thought it wasclearly the best or one of the best
workouts I've ever seen alive by acollege prospect. It's just the way he
threw the ball. I mean,the arm strength and the accuracy. You
know, he brought that into theNFL. I mean, this is a
no brainer. Like, I'm fromChico three hours away, went to Berkeley,

(03:50):
best quarterback in the draft. Imean, let's make it happen.
I mean, that's what all ofthe tea leaves said. After all,
the NFL invited just six players tothe draft itself, all anticipated to go
very early to make for some goodphoto ops. Sure, Alex Smith was
there, but so was Aaron Rodgers, along with wide receiver Braylon Edwards,
running backs Ronnie Brown and Cedric Benson, and quarterback Antrell Roll. That was

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it. That was all that.We're invited five offensive guys here and one
defensive guy, and with the fortynine ers essentially on the clock in a
natural fit at number one overall inthe room, everything seemed to be falling
into place. I really felt likeafter my interview with the forty nine ers
that there was no way that theywouldn't pick me. He had me up
on the board, drawn up someof our plays at CAL and talking football

(04:38):
and x's and nose and defense.It was about forty five minutes, and
I felt better about that than Idid with all my interviews at the combine,
especially as talks with McCarthy. Butthe Niners weren't McCarthy. They were
essentially Mike Nolan. He might notremember this, but I know I asked
him straight up what they were goingto do, and then he said,
I think we're gonna pick you,which I never forgot. So it was

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a done deal. Right. Goodafternoon to football fans here and around the
nation. Welcome to the Jacob JavitsCenter in New York City and to the
two thousand and five National Football LeagueCollege Draft. The first selection in the
two thousand and five NFL Draft belongsto the San Francisco forty nine Ers,

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who are now on the clock,you know, being a number one pick
in the draft. Aaron Rodgers,that's his hometown, home state. You
know. Then it was going tobe a perfect fit to me, and
me and San Francisco much out ateam, and I was going to be
wearing the red and gold. Hewas all set up and ready to go.
Except, as ESPN South Palontonia reportedon draft night, Mike Nolan checking

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his watch, knows that he's onthe clock and he's got to make a
pick. And they've got to makea decision. Now, here's what the
latest from the forty nine ers draftroom. They are deciding what to do
with this pick. Do they tradeit. They've fielded a number of calls
from different teams. Teams are rightnow interested in moving up, and the
Niners have feeled a bunch of calls, and they've said to themselves, none
of these picks right now that they'vebeen offered are good enough for them to

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move out of the number one spot. So, as expected, if they
sit there, Alex Smith of Utahwould be their pick. Sure enough,
with the first selection in the twothousand and five NFL Draft to San Francisco
forty nine select Alex Smith's quarterback Utah. It was a pick that wasn't controversial,
and at the time, ESPN's RonJaworski was sure it was the right

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move. Alex Smith taken number oneoverall by San Francisco, so much debate.
Is he the guy? Would itbe Aaron Rodgers? Why is Alex
Smith the right guy to go numberone? Well, no question, he
was a guy. And the deltabetween Alex Smith and the other quarterbacks,
to me, that's correct. SoI was significant and I look at him
and I see a polished college quarterbackthat projects well the National Football League.

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Okay, but that wasn't the endof the world, or was it.
There were other teams interested in AaronRodgers. Right at number two, new
Miami Dolphins coach Nick Saban could haveused an upgrade over A. J.
Feeley. The Miami Dolphins select RonnieBrown running back Auburn. Okay. But

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at number three, the Cleveland Brownshad ended two thousand and four with the
soon to be traded rookie Luke McCownat quarterback, they had an obvious positional
need. The Cleveland Browns select BraylonEdwards wide receiver. In Michigan at number
four, the Chicago Bears sat notneeding a quarterback necessarily, but if you've
got friends that are Bears fans andhe still want to rub some salt in

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their collective wound hit him with this. With the fourth selection in the two
thousand and five NFL draft, theChicago Bears select Cedric Benson, running back
Texas. What about it number five? The Bucks are picking fifth. Now
overall, we got about four minutesleft on the clock for the Bucks.
Could this be Aaron Rodgers right here? Could? I mean? Look,
they have they at Brian Greeze.If Chris Sims your quarterback, Brian has

(08:03):
one early with Tenver, Chris Simsyoung, if their fathers you're playing,
it's a no brainer. They're allset at quarterback. But is it a
no brainer too? Here's the thingabout this draft. It's a big draft
for John Gruden because they are intransition, going from older to younger.
They do have some quarterbacks on theroster. John Gruden worked out Aaron Rodgers.
He really liked Aaron Rodgers. Butas their team stands now, I

(08:24):
think it's gonna be a tough pickfor them to go ahead and do this.
So, yes, Mike Williams isa possibility here. Certainly, Cadillac
Williams is a possibility here. Buta trade is also a possibility here as
well. There are some teams thathave been talking to the Bucks about moving
up with the Bucks sliding back alittle bit, and he's like about Tampa
Bay buckfeers quarterback situation. I thoughtBrian Creasy had a solid year overall.
I think he wasn't the problem.I think you look at Chris Sims,

(08:45):
developmental young quarterbacks, should be cominginto an area of his career where he
presents a challenge. And I thinkyou look at wide receiver Michael Clayton,
great rookie year, you can makethe argument if he was in this draft
to be the number one pick,you look at the running back situation needing
help there. So I think thosetwo spots running wide receiver a priority for
John Gruden in this draft. Sureenough, with the fifth selection and the
two thousand and five NFL Draft,the Tampa Bay Buccaneers select Carnal Williams running

(09:09):
back Auburn. So teams that neededquarterbacks were passing and it didn't go unnoticed.
Tennessee is next on the clock andwe have Aaron Rodgers still a quarterback
waiting to happen. He's taken awalk out of the green room a little
bit. I don't I don't blamehim? Is this the spot that people
might come up to move? DoesTennessee start to think, well, how

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many years left does Steve McNair have, who sat for a couple of years
before he ever took a staff.With the sixth selection in the two thousand
and five NFL Draft, the TennesseeTitans select Adam Jones, cornerback, West
Virginia Minnesota Vikings select Troy Williams sends, the Arizona Cardinals select and Treill Roll.
Meanwhile, almost two hours after thedraft started, and with all five

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of his fellow draft invitees now gone, a forlorn Aaron Rodgers sat alone in
the Javits Center green room, andAaron Rodgers, where will he go?
Washington, Detroit, Dallas, SanDiego coming up? In short, no,
no, no, and no.The Washington Redskins select Carlos Rodgers.
The Detroit Lions select Mike Williams,the Dallas Cowboys select DeMarcus Ware, the

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San Diego Charges select Seawn Merriman linebackerMaryland. By now we were well into
the drafts third hour. By now, panic had begun to set in with
the Aaron Rodgers camp, even thoughhe has been loath to relitigate the events
of that Saturday in April of twothousand and five, But what was going

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on? ESPN doing the NFL DraftLive broadcast tried to make sense of it
all with Trey Wingo asking the questionof former NFL star quarterback Ron Jaworski.
Let's go now to the situation withAaron Rodgers Jaws sitting there in York in
that green room. It's almost theantithesis of what we had a year ago
when Philip Rivers. There was oneteam that really had him high on their
board, San Diego, and thatelevated his status. Once San Francisco passed

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on Aaron Rodgers. There really isn'tanother team in that top fifteen that is
enamored with Aaron and that's why he'sstill sitting And there really is not a
team that has a real demand fora quarterback. So clearly his value has
fallen. His talent hasn't changed atall. A lot of people did not
have Aaron Rodgers as a top tenquarterback. That does not mean he's not
gonna be a terrific quarterback down theroad. He has flaws, he has

(11:33):
blemishes, the sampling of his throwsdeep down the field just were not there.
That doesn't project well to the NationalFootball League. In the NFL,
your corners, linebackers, and safetiescan cover man to man. They can
squat on routes in ten yards orless than the line of scrimmage. That's
where Aaron Rodgers was most effective.The Saints traded up with the Texans to
move from sixteen to thirteen, butthey had a quarterback in former Packers back

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up Aaron Brooks. They just neededto protect him better. With the thirteenth
selection in the two thousand and fiveNFL Draft, just acquired from Houston by
trade, the New Orleans Saints selectJamal Brown tackle from Oklahoma at number fourteen.
The Carolina Panthers had a butting startquarterback who two years earlier had gotten

(12:16):
them to the Super Bowl, andJake Delome, so this wasn't surprising.
With the fourteenth selection in the twothousand and five NFL Draft, the Carolina
Panthers select Thomas Davis linebacker from Georgiaat number fifteen. The Chiefs were on
the board, but they had ProBowl quarterback Trent Green under center, so
this wasn't surprising either. With thefifteenth selection in the two thousand and five

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NFL Draft, the Kansas City chiefselect Derek Johnson, linebacker from Texas.
The Houston Texans selected at number sixteen, but they had two thousand four NFL
passing yardage leader former number one overallpick David Carr at quarterback, So the
Houston Texans select Travis Johnson defense oftackle from Florida State. The Bengals were

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up next at number seventeen. Ofcourse, they had Heisman Trophy winner Carson
Palmer, another former number one overallpick, entering his third season, So
yeah, no, the Cincinnati Bengalsselect David Pollock, defensive man from Georgia.
The Vikings had already passed on Rogersat number seven, so why would
they pick him at number eighteen?Spoiler alert they didn't. With the eighteenth

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selection in the two thousand and fiveNFL Draft, the Minnesota Vikings select Erasmus
James defensive end Wisconsin. The SaintLouis Rams were up next. They had
just parted company with future Hall ofFamer Kurt Warner, now an Arizona Cardinal.
Might they be interested in the twentyone year old Cali quarterback. Weirdly,

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they only used less than four minutesof their allotted fifteen to make their
selection, so they were sure theyknew what they wanted to do with the
nineteenth selection. In the two thousandand five NFL Draft, the Saint Louis
Rams select Alex Barron, who wasnever more than a mediocre NFL lineman for
Saint Louis, who again had apositional needed quarterback. As the draft moved

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into its fourth hour, the camerasboared in on the young man from Chico,
California, a player who didn't getany Division one offers coming out of
high school just three years earlier.On the ESPN broadcast, host Chris Burman
tried to put it into perspectives.We've been at many of these drafts,
and I want to tell young AaronRodgers a story that he may not remember
because he wasn't very old. Innineteen eighty eight, when Thurman Thomas,

(14:30):
we had a camera on him athis home, and I guess it would
have been in Stillwater because it wasOklahoma State. We had a camera in
his apartment, and as the daywore on and we went from the first
to the second round, we sawevery item in Thurman's refrigerator there was we
came a root beer. There wassome mustard. I think it was a
ham and cheese sandwich. We sawhim fall asleep on the couch waiting to

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be picked, and midway through thesecond round the Buffalo Bills tapped him.
When a lot of people said,Wow, they'll have an okay career.
The rest is history. He's gonnabe going to the Hall of Fame.
And he waited a long time forwhat was the longest day for him turned
out to be long days for everybodytrying to tackle him for the next ten
or twelve years. So I onlysay that Daron Rodgers as experience turns out

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Boomer was prophetic. But that wasof little solace to Rogers at the time
the drama was building because there wasonly one man's stewing the drama. He
keeps getting passed on, unpassed on. Oh, the lonely odyssey of that

(15:35):
player. NFL super agent Lee Steinberg, who counted the aforementioned Thurman Thomas as
one of his clients speaking to NFLfilms, there was nowhere for Rogers to
go, as much as he wantedto be anywhere but the Javits Center.
As the evening approached. You gottaget away from this at some point.
It's two out of control, youknow, we feel that. Yeah.

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The Dallas Cowboys were on the clockwith the twentieth overall select. They already
passed once, albeit for the onlyother future Hall of Famer in the draft,
to Marcus Ware, but coach BillParcels was trying to make it work
with either an aging Drew Bledsoe ora young Tony Romo. Their needs were
not at quarterback. With the twentiethselection in the two thousand and five NFL

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Draft, the Dallas Cowboys select MarcusSpears, defensive and from LSU. Up
next were the Jacksonville Jaguars, whomade the most curious choice of the draft,
taking a college quarterback who was changingpositions to wide receiver. Jacksonville Jaguars
select Matt Jones wide receiver Arkansas Wowindeed, because while no one doubted Matt

(16:44):
Jones's athletic ability, it was alousy practice player who didn't act like he
cared. NFL personnel executive and analystMike Mayock knew Jones was trouble. Not
only was he a position conversion,but you've got a kid with off the
field issues, potential drug potential,conduct, potential work ethic. All these
red flags were swirling around this kid. I know a ton of teams that

(17:07):
had him completely off the board.I shouldn't say all, but I think,
like some athletes that are super talentedlike he was, I think sometimes
he would take for granted the needto grind it. But ultimately, if
he'd kept his head on straight andI've been able to attack things the right
way, I still believe the guywould have been one heck of a talent.
Then Jaguars coach Jack del Rio Joneswas suspended for drugs after his fourth

(17:32):
NFL season and never played again.Even with his baggage, though he was
still taking ahead of Aaron Rodgers acouple of weeks ago. Aaron, you
were the clear cut number one.What's changed over that time? Yeah,
I wish I could tell you.I haven't seen anything. I think it's
just perception of me or maybe needsof the teams at the spots. And

(17:52):
I'm just you know, I'm nottoo worried. I'm excited about going a
team that wants me and making anampack right away. The twenty second were
all pick in the draft belonged tothe Baltimore Ravens, who just two years
earlier picked up a quarterback in thefirst round out of cal Kyle Boller.
They were still sinking or swimming withhim, so maybe the thought was to
get him a weapon to throw to. The Baltimore Ravens select Mark Clayton Murders,

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wide receiver Oklahoma, another player whowould have a pretty pedestrian career by
NFL first round pick standards, catchingjust fourteen touchdown passes in parts of six
seasons. Then it was the Seahawkson the board, but they traded their
pick to the Raiders. So howdid that go? With the twenty third
choice in the two thousand and fiveNFL Draft, acquired from Seattle, the

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Oakland Raiders select Fabian Washington, maybethe defensive version of Mark Clayton, a
player who was out of football aftertwenty ten. Finally, after waiting some
four and a half hours, theGreen Bay Packers were finally on the clock.

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In two thousand and four, thePackers went ten and six and won
the NFC North. That was thegood news. The bad news was they
got bounced in the first round ofthe playoffs by the Minnesota vikings. You
might remember this. The vikings arenot inside field goal range from Lord dandy'son
holder, mosses ye for a touchdown, oh Al Harris playing off get up

(19:27):
on the route, and Randy Mosswithout even really being able to run as
he shoots the moon to the fanshere at Ring Bay. At is a
disgusting act by Randy Moss, andit's unfortunate that we had that on our
ear live. That is disgusting byRandy Moss. So while Joe Buck didn't
like that in particular display from RandyMoss, Packers president and CEO Bob Harland

(19:52):
didn't like the direction his team wasgoing in, specifically in the front office.
Mike Sherman, after just one seasonas head coach two thousand, was
given general manager's duties when Ron Wolferetired in two thousand and one, and
as is off in the case,sometimes the head coach's needs and the general
managers needs are two different things.Mike Sherman the coach, was remarkably successful,

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with four double digit win seasons andthree division titles in his four years
on the job, but as generalmanager he presided over some questionable drafts and
personnel moves. In two thousand andone, Sherman's first season, he drafted
Jamal Reynolds in the first round.Reynolds never started a single game and made
only eighteen career tackles. Sherman thentook talented wide receiver Javon Walker with his

(20:37):
first round pick in two thousand andtwo. Walker actually had two productive seasons,
even making the Pro Bowl in twothousand and four. Then he complained
all offseason to Sherman about his contract. He wound up tearing his ACL before
being shipped off to Denver. That'swhere he would make some questionable off the
field life decisions. In two thousandand three, Sherman's draft of nine players

(20:57):
yielded just two who would ever playfor the Packers. But maybe his final
straw was in two thousand and four, when in the third round, not
only did he draft a punter B. J. Sander, who would be
out of football in two unproductive years, the only impact player that he got
was seventh round flyer Scott Wells.The Packer's first round pick in two thousand
and four, was a mod Carrollwho was known for committing penalties in the

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defensive secondary while he was still inCollege. Carroll was gone after three bad
years in Green Bay, so maybethe Packers were winning despite their lousy drafts.
Whatever the case, Harlan had seenenough. We are very pleased to
announce today that Ted Thompson is joiningthe Packers' staff as executive vice president,

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general manager and director of football Operations. Mike Sherman's title will be executive vice
president and head coach. This moveis being made because it is what I
feel is best for the football futureof this franchise. We feel this restructuring
helps the Packers in two ways.First, we're able to add to our

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staff a respected thirteen year National FootballLeague veteran who is a proven talent evaluator
and an efficient administrator. And second, it will reduce Mike's workload and enable
him to devote more time to hiscoaching. Thompson's first duty the two thousand
and five draft. But where wouldhe go? Conventional wisdom pointed to defense.

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After all, the Packers were thirdin the NFL in total offense and
twenty fifth in total defense in twothousand and four. They had a Hall
of Fame quarterback in Brett Farr,who was thirty five and had threatened to
retire, but he always came back. The bottom line was they didn't need
a quarterback. They needed defense.The Green Bay Packers select, and I

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hold my breath when I hear yousay this, but go ahead and say
it. The Packers select two atnumber twenty four. The Packers proudly step
to the podium and take the successat a Brett Farve Aaron Rodgers NFL Network
Mike Mayock, who saw it thatway three days before the draft, but
at the time there wasn't a scenariothat saw Aaron Rodgers falling that far.

(23:07):
How in the world does Aaron Rodgersand drop that far? Years later,
the long time personnel man saw whatso many others couldn't see. Teams either
didn't need a quarterback, didn't havecap space for a quarterback, or had
head coaches whose jobs were on theline and probably didn't want a rookie quarterback.
But as Aaron continued to sit andwait, the crew on the ESPN

(23:30):
broadcast saw the wisdom and what wasabout to happen. Green Bay, then
Washington, Susie Colbert possible spots forAaron Rodgers. Certainly, absolutely things could
get interesting. Now for Aaron Rodgersa quarterback out of cal I. Talked
to his agent, Mike Sullivan.He said, possibly green Bay looking for
a quarterback. No one's really surehow much longer Brett Farve will play,

(23:52):
maybe one more season, but it'stime for them to look for a successor.
And then with Washington, is JoeGibbs really set with Patrick Ramsey not
sure. So if there is apossibility, it's probably here at pick number
twenty four or twenty five for atime period. He did step out of
the green room, wanted to havea little bit of privacy, but now
back in with his agent Mike Sullivanand hoping to feel a phone call.

(24:15):
And then, finally, after morethan four hours of waiting, that call
came with the twenty fourth selection inthe two thousand and five NFL Draft,
the Green Bay Packers select Aaron Rodgers. Part of our relief and certainty as
to what the next step was,and the whirlwind of finding out where he
was headed began to sink in.So was the reality of being drafted as

(24:37):
a backup, at least until theHall of Famer in front of him retired
moments after his selection. In rarelyheard audio on a conference call speaker phone
from New York, the man whowould become arguably the greatest player in Packers
franchise history, spoke to the Wisconsinmedia for the very first time. Popular

(25:04):
Alright a minute, questions, We'veever been to Wisconsin? Aaron? Have
you ever been to Wisconsin? Thecourse? Serious? Oh yeah? How
tough is the weight? How toughwas the wait for you? Uh?
It was? It was pretty difficult. Just uh, we had an idea

(25:27):
if there's things, you know,we also the basketball prepare for the worst,
and we we had an idea ofthings, didn't you know, go
go allway between fisty and fifteen sixteenthat the Packers was really looking like more
and more. And I couldn't bemore excited, thoughtful over New York?

(25:47):
Do you regret regretful in to NewYork? What do you regret going to
New York? No? No,no, no, no no no.
It's a once a lifetime thing.And and I got to bring uh,
you know, seventeen family members outhere, and and we had an absolute
blast and I'll never forget it.And I'm just so excited about starting my
career with the Green Bay Factors.Pressure is there? Pressure being far as

(26:14):
air apparent. Uh yeah, Ithink obviously, but but not as much
pressure as being thrown on the fireright away with without a supporting cast.
And you know, I'm excited aboutan opportunity to learn from from one of
the greatest quarterbacks of all time withnot the grass and and h just an
awesome an awesome guy from what I'veheard, I'm excited about that. How

(26:34):
MUCHO even told don't worry about beingwet bar just for yourself. How much
you've been told not to be butfar but to be yourself? None yet,
but I'm sure it'll start coming.Uh once I get out there.
What's the coldest weather you've ever playedin? What's the coldest weather you've ever
played in? The coldest weather?I've been in some u some near freezing

(27:00):
hey old before, but it's comedown probably into the men for you and
my Friday night game then October inhigh school. I get Jeff Tufford's quarterbacks
has struggled in the NFL. Whywill he be different? Jeff Tufford's quarterbacks

(27:21):
quarterbacks have struggled in the NFL.How would you be different? Well?
One of the the ny things tolook at a lot of the got gotten
the situations where they don't have avery good supporting cast around them. I'm
not the de An excuse, butcoming the Packers, and I'm only going
to be playing under less pressure,I think right away. But uh,

(27:42):
I'm gonna be playing with a supportingcast. You know, Donald Driver,
I'm mind green above a Frank.You know some good players in here,
which makes my job a lot easy. So Aaron Rodgers was a Packer under
the most improbable set of circumstances.It would take him three years to send
to the starting spot, which isa whole other podcast by itself. And

(28:03):
then it was fifteen years of arguablythe greatest stretch of quarterback play in NFL
history, culminating in four League MVPAwards, ten Pro Bowl selections, and
a Super Bowl championship, all becauseMike Nolan passed. Why Alex Smith,
Well, as we've said all alongwith every pick today and in particularly very
first pick, want we want topick guys that we want this football team

(28:26):
to look like, and Alex Smithas we want this football team to look
like. He's very competitive, he'sgot leadership skills, he's a hard worker,
he's very competitive with those things inmind. That's the primary reason,
and Aaron never forgot it, hauntinglystating on draft night, how disappointed are
you that you will not be aforty nine er? Not as disappointed as

(28:47):
the forty nine will be that itdidn't draft me. Coming up next,
longtime Packers beat writer Pete Doherty fromthe Green Bay Press Gazette joins me.
I'm Doug Russell. This was Tailsfrom twelve sixty five, the fall of
twelve to twenty four. You're listeningto Tales from twelve sixty five, presented

(29:07):
by Nicolay Law, your local awardwinning injury lawyers. If you've been injured,
get Nicolay, Wisconsin's winning team oflawyers that will get you back in
the game. All Right, DougRussell, we are actually at lambeau Field
with from the Green Bay Press becausethat long time Packers beat writer Pete Doherty.
Pete, this is the epitome Iguess of fortuitous timing. It is

(29:29):
a mere coincidence that we're talking aboutwhat happened eighteen years ago and this just
happens to be the Saturday of theNFL Draft when we're taping this. So
I guess timing is what timing is, But what do you remember from eighteen
years ago when the Packers had adefensive need and yet Aaron Rodgers kept sliding
and sliding and sliding. You knowhe won't because he going into that week,

(29:51):
he was not on the radar atall for the Packers. And it
wasn't until the night before where Isaw a mock draft. I can't even
remember who did it it. AndTed Thompson's has reference seeing you know,
one or two mock drafts on thatFriday, and he went back and watched
film on I'm just to be surethat had the guy going to the Packers,
had him drop him that far,so that kind of put him on

(30:12):
the radar for the Packers. Butyou're still thinking, you know, that's
not gonna happen. He's not gonnaget out of the top ten, is
he? You know? And allof a sudden, it get it got
closer and closer, and they keptshowing the guy in the green room,
you know, and the TV broadcastis on, you know, we're all
out here and the TV broadcast ison, and the auditorium and you can

(30:33):
see how miserable it is for theguy to sit through all this and you
know when he took him, itwas it was kind of it was close
to as much of a shock asit was. I think the Jordan Love
pick was a little more of ashocker to me, but it was still
kind of a WHOA, that's youknow, really interesting. That's what I
remember more than anything. It's justwow, this is uh, you know,

(30:59):
they're taking a quarter back in thefirst round, and five had been
talking about retiring since he was aboutthirty two, So I totally I get
why Thompson would do it, butit was still to actually see it happened.
It was you know, you justkind of it was kind of said,
whoa, what's going You know,this is this is kind of a
stunner. What did you know aboutRogers leading up to that draft, because

(31:19):
again, aside from that mock draftthat had him sliding to twenty four,
I didn't see that mock draft.You just didn't pay that much attention to
him because you didn't think that itwas going to happen here in Green Bay.
I think, yeah, that wasyou know, like I was,
I think I was still writing.Yeah, in fact, I know I
was. I was writing draft series, you know, back then where I
was talking to fifteen scouts about thedraft, and I would do a story

(31:41):
on each position and capsules on thetop ten players at each position. And
with quarterbacks, I had just gotteninto this mindset where the top you know,
the top guys, you know,they had nothing to do with the
packers, So I do the capsuleson him and talk to guys. But
you know, I really wasn't payingthat close attention. It was always what
guy might they pick in the fifthor six or seventh round, who you

(32:05):
know to be a backup. ButI do remember, you know, the
one thing is that the anybody who'ssaying, you know that quarterbacks you know,
aren't valued, weren't very valued asmuch then as they are now.
I mean, that's all revisionist historybecause there was a huge emphasis on quarterbacks
at that time. But there werereal there actually were real questions about the

(32:27):
guy. There was the whole Tedfordsystem thing with I mean Achille Smith and
M. Trent Dilfer, and Imean there was the Joey Harrington. I
think there was Kyle Bohler, likefour big time early first round pick bus
at quarterback from who played for thisguy? So there were legit questions about

(32:50):
if there was something about his systemand the way he cut the field in
half for the quarterbacks and made iteasy for him. There were real questions
about Rother Rodgers was good enough andlike he had There was a game against
USC where he had like thirteen straightcompletions, but I remember talking to scouts
about it, like one of themwas like they were all checkdowns. So
it was like he wasn't very impressedby it. So there were legit questions
about him. And I think thereare two things that people probably didn't know

(33:16):
or the scouts didn't know or appreciateenough of him at the time. And
one was I think his arm wasa little better than they thought. And
I also think it improved when hegot here. I think working with in
McCarthy's program and with clements, hisarm got stronger in those three years before
he became a starter. But theother was his mobility and how good thrower

(33:36):
he was outside the pocket. Idon't know that he did that much of
that at KAL. It doesn't soundlike he did. And that's the thing
that's the quality that sets him apartand what made him the special quarterback he
was, is that he could getout of the pocket and on the move
put the ball right on the money. And I don't think that showed up
as much at Kal as it didonce he got to the NFL. There

(33:59):
were only six players that were invitedto the NFL Draft that year. I
didn't realize. I didn't remember thatonly six of them there were. You
know, Braylon Edwards was one ofthem. Center Benson was another. Alex
Smith obviously was another. Entrell rolewas the one and loan defensive player.
So the NFL thought that he wasgoing to go pretty early, because you

(34:22):
don't put somebody in the green roomthat you think is going to last four
hours. But if you look backon that draft, there were teams that
had positional needs at quarterback. Itwasn't just the forty nine ers. The
Dolphins could have used a quarterback,The Browns could have used a quarterback.
Do you have any idea as towhy, whether it was Nick Saban or
whether it was the Browns or whenit was the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, why

(34:45):
they kept passing on someone who theNFL, at least on some level,
thought was going to be taken earlier. Yeah, and you know when Gil
Brandt, it is basically the onewho spearheads that stuff. I spoke to
Gil last week. He's a littlebit under the weather, but yeah,
I spoke to him and he's basin, you know, he's not just going
on his own evaluation. He's talkingto teams, and so he's got that

(35:05):
inclination that the guy's going to gofrom talking to teams. And I know
Gruden. You know, Uh Rogershas said Gruden told him he was going
to pick him, and I thinkthey picked like six or seventh, and
I remember, right and Williams yeah, and so I think they were probably
going to and then for some reasonthey he just Gruden wasn't convinced. There
were all these teams that had,you know, these quarterbacks who had a

(35:30):
decent year, but they were guysin their early thirties and name they were
like, oh, this guy's pretty, this guy's good enough. And then
the guy, you know, thenext year, the guy wasn't any good
I was guys like Chandler and Ican't remember who else, you know who
they thought, oh, yeah,he's good enough, and you know,
two years later they're like, oh, what a terrible mistake. Um,
so I you know, it madeit kind of made sense. And that's

(35:50):
why that that mock drafter. Youknow, I think the explanation was like
once he got out of the topten, it was a bunch of teams
that didn't need quarter backs, andthat's why they had him fallen that far.
I guess surprise is somebody early inthe second round didn't trade up into
the first round. You know,if they didn't take him in the top

(36:13):
ten, they didn't try to takehim in the twenties, you know,
before the pack before I got tothe packers there, it's a little probably
a little surprise that nobody was willingto pay that. But you know,
there was, like I said,there were real questions about the guys.
I mean, you know, Idon't know what you thought at that time,
but his rookie training camp, Ijust thought, this guy's going to

(36:36):
be a career backup even a secondyear, you know nothing. Third year
in camps like okay, he's gettingbetter. And then he played that game
against the Cowboys, like, wellmaybe there's something here. Then after his
first year it's like, okay,this is this guy's good enough. But
it wasn't until you know, latetwo thousand and I really not till twenty
ten, and really not till theplayoffs at twenty ten, where I thought,

(36:58):
oh my gosh, this guy isreally good. Well, they drafted
Brian Brom in two thousand and eightin the second round. That tells you
exactly what they thought. Were theyof course they thought the guy had a
chance, or they would have beggedfive to come back. So they felt
good enough to say, you know, we hope five leaves. But they
were concerned enough to make a prettybig hedge by picking Bram in the second

(37:20):
round. It would have been likeI would have been. I would have
been so interested yesterday if Levis wasstill on the board at forty two.
I was, actually yes, yesterdaymorning, I was. I texted back
and forth with a couple of scoutIt's just asking, so, if you're
the Packers and he's on the boardat forty two, do you seriously entertain
taken him once said yeah. Ionce said no. Interesting. Having having

(37:43):
covered Brett's entire career and you alludedto it, he had been talking about
retirement. We called it tractor watchfor so many years, tractor WATCHO four,
tractor Watch O five, tractor WATCHOsix. Well, what did that
do In two thousand and five,when Aaron Rodgers was selected with the number
twenty four overall pick, what didthat due to Brett? What did that

(38:05):
due to his mindset? How didhe handle that? The putting the public
face, even the face that youknow that I saw around. He didn't
betray any concerned. I knew somebodywho was in his inner circle, and
I talked to that guy regularly.And I remember by Roger's second year he
said, Fires not worried about Rogersat all. But Andrew Brant always he

(38:30):
tells the story a lot. Youknow, he was the Packers cap guy
back then, and he said hegot calls regularly from bus Cook, who's
Fires agent, saying, you know, it's really hard to come to work
and have to go and sit ina meeting with a guy who they picked
to take your job. You know, he gets so so it must have
gotten must have been a burn hissaddle in some kind of way. What

(38:53):
did that do to Aaron? Andyou know, when you look at it
from the other standpoint, because hehad expected to go, or at least
he said that he expected to goto the San Francisco forty nine ers,
although there was some reporting that no, Alex Smith is their guy, despite
what you know, Mike. Ithink the ultimate irony is that Mike McCarthy

(39:13):
was part of the evaluation process forSan Francisco and then a year later,
in two thousand and six, hegets hired as the Packers head coach.
We'll get to that in a minute. But what did that do to Aaron?
Just sitting there for four hours?The camera kept panning to him because
he was the last one that wasthere. We saw the look on his
face. How did he carry thatinto his rookie season? And then even

(39:34):
beyond that, it had to havebeen just a huge motivator to him.
Had to have been right, Andthis is a player that didn't take much
to motivate. I don't think yeah, no, And you know, these
guys, their their brains just seekout things to motivate hims. They make,
you know, they find slights thataren't even there. There's that story
about Michael Jordan's saying after a gamewhere somebody scored like forty points against him,

(40:00):
and he said, the guy youknow, walking off the court said,
you know, shook his hand andsaid, hey, you know,
good Gate, you know, saidsomething kind of sarcastic to him, and
it turned out the conversation never evenhappened, right, you know, they'll
they'll make stuff up to motivate himselfas well. He didn't have to make
this up. I'm the poison pizza. Yeah yeah, he right. So
he sat through like four hours ofthis, so he didn't have to.

(40:22):
I mean, it's burned into him. I would guess that was at least
a big a motivator for him asbeing drafted number one ninety nine or number
two hundred, whatever it was forTom Brady, it had to have been
just as just as big a motivator. Now, you know, Rogers had
to sit for three years too,So I don't know how much that took,

(40:43):
you know, out of that motivationbecause he it's not like he didn't
get a chance to go out andprove it right away. But I think
those things probably just simmer inside.Yea. So I it had to have
been a huge motivator for him,and in its own way, you know,
who knows how it turns out,he probably would have been just as
good as anyway, but that wasn'tnecessarily that certainly did not hurt his NFL

(41:06):
career to have that happen to him. You know, things like that,
motivation, all those things they domatter. And you know, you could
make an argument that that was athat was a good thing for him.
Yeah, and looking back on itagain, if you put yourself back to
where we were just about eighteen yearsago. I remember, and it was

(41:27):
a Saturday, and as we tapedthis, it's it's a Saturday. They've
shifted the format of the NFL draft. I swore that I thought that the
Packers were definitely going to go defense. They had one of the poorest defenses
in the NFL in two thousand andfour, and they had one of the
most prolific offenses in two thousand andfour. But I guess that's just the
vision of the late Ted Thompson.He was. He was brought up in

(41:49):
the Ron wolf school of football,and that it's wolf was a huge quarterback
guy. Obviously everybready is, butand he and the proof is in the
pot with Wolfe where you know,if you go back and look he drafted
a quarterback. It was either everyother year or two out of every three
years that he was GM. Itwas right in that vicinity, like it

(42:10):
wasn't just every few years he wasdrafting quarterbacks, and you know everybody remembers
uh Brunel Hassleback, Aaron Brooks,Stetmer Brooks, all those guys started games
for other teams. But there werealso a bunch of guys. I think
Jay Barker wasn't was he in theHe tried to turn him into a tight
end, but yeah, he wasa quarterback at Alabama, Ronnie mcada.

(42:31):
You know there were he missed ona few two which is Kyle Kyle Wackles.
They ended up moving to tight end. So you know he had to
it's you got him because you're gonnamiss on these guys. So he was
willing to invest draft picks, eventhough they were later picks. He was
willing to do it um. Andthat's where Thompson learned that this is how

(42:52):
you run an NFL team. Youcannot get caught short at quarterback. And
I understand, I completely get White. Thompson would have taken Rodgers. I
mean, Farb had been talking aboutretiring, and you know, you just
you can't get what if he actuallydid just hang it up. You can't
get caught without a quarterback. Imean that statement about the hardest time to
find one is when you need one. Is it is really true? How

(43:15):
ironic is it that Mike McCarthy wasthe forty nine Ers offensive coordinator, their
brand new offensive coordinator. Mike Nolanhad just been hired as the head coach
and general manager after Terry Donohue wasthe general manager and he got let go
Dennis ericson the head coach and hewas let oh They gave full control to
Mike Nolan, a defensive guy,but he needed an offensive coordinator. And

(43:36):
who's running Aaron Rodgers through his SanFrancisco forty nine Ers paces pre draft?
But Mike McCarthy. How ironic isthat it is? It's amazing, And
all the reports were that McCarthy inhis recommendation, he didn't have final say
he was just a coordinator, butin his recommendation he liked Smith better than

(43:57):
Rodgers. McCarthy denies it now doesand denied it in two thousand and six.
But I suspect the reports were true, and it's you know, in
his defense, he wasn't the onlyone a lot of I mean, the
guy lasted till pick what was attwenty four? Yeah, I mean,
so he wasn't the only one.So when McCarthy does get hired as the
Packers head coach, how much ofa come back to let's get on the

(44:21):
same page was there between Aaron whowas still a backup at the time and
his new head coach who was nowcharged with developing this player that he had
a hand in passing the year prior. Yeah, and I've never heard any
specifics, but McCarthy has alluded toRogers basically, you know, needling him

(44:42):
about that about you know, hisrecommendation and then the San Francisco not taking
him. Even before Rodgers became thestarter, you know, there was you
know, I think you know,Rogers made some offhand comments occasionally, you
know, kind of sticking the needleinto Da McCarthy about that. So there
was had to do some bridge building, I'm sure, but you know,
they had a common goal to wingames, and um, you know,

(45:06):
I'm not sure exactly when he gotsold on Rogers. It sounds to me
from talking to people who have beenin the organization who were in it back
then, that by rogers third yearin practice, they were really they were
pretty impressed with him, Like theydidn't know Hall of Fame or any of
that. Stuff. But watching it'sit's similar to what you hear about Love.

(45:28):
They don't. The thing what I'veheard is Rogers was more consistently good
like day in day out than Lovewas Love. But Love has had more
than his share of moments where it'slike, oh okay, that's that's that's
pretty good. Rogers was more consistentlythat good. It sounds like that third
year is the year that convinced theseguys on the practice field that he was

(45:52):
good enough to roll with um,and they were hoping for would retire after
those seven season, after they lostthat championship game. It is pretty remarkable
how history repeated itself between the lastHall of Fame quarterback in this Hall of
Fame quarterback, even if you wantto go down to some of the minutia
being traded to the same team,the New York Jets. It's just really
remarkable that Aaron sat for three years, Jordan Love sat for three years.

(46:15):
I don't think anybody expects Jordan Lovedto be a Hall of Fame quarterback.
That would be I mean, there'salready been thirty years of Hall of Fame
quarterbacks particular, it would be theodds of it happening are infinitesimal. I've
got a better chance of getting struckby lightning on my way out to the
car today. But it is prettyremarkable when you sit back and think about
how history did repeat itself. Lastquestion that I'll have for you before I

(46:39):
let you go is right before Aaronwas traded, he made the statement on
the Pat McAfee show that arguably heis the greatest player that's ever played in
a Green Bay Packers uniform. Ithink a lot of fans didn't like that
because it's not humble, and we'reWisconsin Knights and we're a humble people.
But where does he stand in yourpantheon of greatest players that have ever worn

(47:01):
this uniform? So I just Idon't see. I mean, I know
people love bart Star and he wasa very good quarterback. He was a
great quarterback. He was more Itwas his play calling as much as any
of his physical talents that made himspecial in his character that he could handle
Lombardies coaching and he thrived on itand all of those things. But he

(47:25):
played with what eleven or twelve otherHall of Fame players on both sides of
the ball. Horning was their bestguy in the early sixties, they won
with defense in the later sixties startedwhen an MVP, he was good.
I don't mean, you know,this is not let's not build a straw
man here. I mean it wasa great player. He's a great player,
but he is not he is notas good as Farvan Rodgers. So

(47:51):
the best player, in my opinion, is one of those two. And
you covered them both. I didthree or four years ago, you know,
even then, and I would havesaid, really close, I'm guessing
Rodgers is going to end up ontop, and it's just never quite happened.
You know, they didn't even getback to the Super Bowl again.

(48:14):
I think Farve did a little morewith a little less than Rogers did throughout
his career. Rodgers did have youknow, towards the end there was you
know that the talent wasn't as goodas it was in the early twenty tens.
But you know, if I justabsolutely had to pick one over the
other, and it's a really toughborderline call, I think Farv did just

(48:35):
a little more with a little lessthan than Rodgers did, So I would
put him first and Rodgers a veryclose, very close second. All right,
Well, that's the Listen. Whenyou've got two Hall of Famers and
two of the greatest that I've everdone it at that position, that's that's
not shabby if you're behind Brett FarvePete Doherty from the Green Bay Press,
because that appreciate the time so muchin the podcast, Thank you so much,
thanks for having me. Doug PeteDoherty has been on the Packers beat

(48:57):
since nineteen ninety three, having coveredboth of Green Bays back to back Hall
of Fame quarterbacks. But it almostdidn't happen except for some bad scouting,
poor decision making, and plain olddumb luck, or as the late Ted
Thompson said, I called him atthe time when I made the call and
then told him where we're going topick him, that I thought maybe some
divine intervention had played a part.As for Aaron himself, looking back on

(49:20):
his slide years later, he admitsit was a humbling experience. On the
inside, there was a lot ofdisappointment, embarrassment just thinking about, you
know, the hard work I putin and the disappointment of not paying off.
In my mind at the time asI saw you know, teams passing
on me that I'd know I'd talkedto and though we're interested and players drafted

(49:43):
who I felt like I was betterthan, as in every player that was
drafted ahead of him for the Packers. It was an eighteen year run that
was one for the record books,one that will end with a bust in
Canton or retired number twelve in GreenBay, and a gold jacket wherever Aaron
Rodgers goes. I'm Russell. Thanksfor joining me on Tales from twelve to
sixty five the fall of twelve totwenty four. We'll see you next die.

(50:07):
This has been Tales from twelve sixtyfive with your host Doug Russell,
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(50:29):
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