Challenging Segregation & The Future Of The Democratic Party

Episode 80: Challenging Segregation & The Future Of The Democratic Party

Richard & Leah Rothstein are the Father and Daughter duo here to Tell Us The Truth about their new book Just Action: How To Challenge Segregation Enacted Under The Color Of Law. This incredible conversation dives deep into

• Sounding the Alarm on Housing Segregation
• Empowering Community Groups to hold Banks accountable for investing more in underserved areas
• Reforming the credit scoring system
• Providing down payment assistance to Black homebuyers
• Building housing affordable to a range of income levels
• Much more

Richard and his Daughter Leah have both spent their careers advocating for equality for all by dismantling systems that maintain racism; especially when it comes to housing. In the spirit of Black History Month, this is an incredible conversation with two incredible allies in the fight against systemic racism!

Hunter Walker and Luppe B. Luppen provide an in-depth take on the modern & future history of the Blue Party entitled The Truce: Progressives, Centrists, and the Future of the Democratic Party. Listen as Hunter and Luppe detail

• The strong influence of Jim Clyburn on the entire Democrat Party including Joe Biden's rise to POTUS.
• Softening the public image of Bernie Sanders
• The meteoric rise and cooling off of AOC
• The significance of person to person relationships and how they play a hand in who becomes top Elected Officials and Party Leaders
• Much More

Hunter and Luppe have written an informative, easy to read and modern telling of the Democratic Party. This conversation further illustrates why The Truce is a top pick on Duke's reading list!




*You can Subscribe to Tell Us The Truth on all leading podcast apps including the iHeart Radio App, Spreaker and iTunes/Apple Podcasts. Join us on Facebook and Twitter for daily discussion about top news.*

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
On this edition If It Tells theTruth Podcast, we have Loupe Lupin and
Hunter Walker. They're going to joinme to talk about their new book,
The Truth, Progressiveness, Centrists,and the future of the Democratic Party.
But first, Richard and Leah Rothstein, father and daughter duo who wrote the

(00:23):
book Just Action, How to ChallengeSegregation Enacted under the Color of Law.
My name is E. Duke Bennett, and this is tell Us the Truth.
I'm Richard Rothstein. I'm the coauthor of a book called Just Action,

(00:45):
How to Challenge Segregation and Act withunder the Color of Law. It's
a sequel to a previous book Iwrote called The Color of Law. I
am Leah Rothstein. I'm the coauthor with Richard Rothstein, who is also
my father, of Just Action,How to Challenge Segregation Enacted under the Color
of Law, And we're here totell you about the Truth. Well,

(01:06):
I was one of many people whoread The Color of Law and was very
moved and disturbed by the history ofhow our country came to be segregated,
that it was the result of decadesof intentional and explicit government policy. And
I looked around and I saw thatwe're still a segregated country. I saw
how we got to be that waythrough reading the Color of Law and listening

(01:29):
to my dad's lectures about it,but I didn't know what we could do
about it now, how we couldaffect change in a segregated landscape that feels
very entrenched. And so I askedmy dad, you know, what do
we do with this information? Whatcan we do now about it? And
he challenged me to help him answerthat, and so that challenge became just
action, and in that book weattempt to answer the question of what we

(01:52):
can do to remedy and challenge theracial segregation of our communities today. Well,
Richard and Leah, it is apleasure to have you here On Tells
the Truth. And Leah, I'mglad you brought up The Color of Law
because that is such a critically acclaimedbook, the previous book that your father,
Richard had written. In fact,The Color of Law has been in

(02:15):
my home library for a little whilehere, and my lady, who had
originally read that book, she wasvery impressed when I let her know that
quote unquote, the Richard Rothstein wouldbe a guest on tell Us the Truth
because she was such a fan ofthe color of law. And I told

(02:35):
her, I said, well,wait until you hear from his daughter Leah,
who you know, she's not chopliverherself either. So this is really
a cool opportunity here to really pickthe brains of two fantastic people doing some
great work throughout the nation. Here, Richard, talk to me about the
latest book here, because you know, just action is such a strong title

(02:58):
for the book for you personally.Why did you decide to call it just
action? Well, of course ithas a double meaning of the action that
we take to remedy racial segregation isa step towards justice, and it's a
simple thing to do. If wejust take action, we can make significant

(03:22):
steps towards the redress of segregation inour own communities. You know, a
common theme here On Tells the Truthis that I ask my guests what's the
call to action? Because it's soeasy to identify problems that exist and to
detail what, when, why,and how and what have you? And

(03:46):
certainly that is an important aspect.You can't actually move on to the solution
until you identify what the problem is, how it began, the history,
and what have you seen. Don'trepeat the same mistakes to get to the
same conclusions there. So I getthat, but again, we really need
to understand what happens next, whatcan we do about it. Just Action

(04:12):
feels like a blueprint regarding what canbe done next. You can actually sink
your teeth into it, tangible stepby step guide into how to affect change
in communities. Talk to me aboutthat, Leah, Am I hitting the
mark here because that's exactly how Ifelt when I read it. Talk to

(04:33):
me about the blueprint nature of JustAction. Well, we really wanted to
show that even though racial segregation isa complicated issue, it feels entrenched,
it feels like just the way thingsare and impossible to change that. In
fact, there's a lot that wecan do to affect change around the segregation

(04:53):
of our communities. And it's notthat complicated. You know. We don't
have to know everything all the insand outs of real estate or housing development
to be able to take action inour own communities that can have a real
impact on their segregation. And soin Just Action, we describe what we
hope is in accessible plain language,what these dozens and dozens of strategies a

(05:16):
local group could take on to affectchange in their own community around segregation.
And then for each of those strategies, we give an example from somewhere in
the country of a group that's doingjust that to show not only is it
possible, but it is happening somewhere, and so we hope it inspires hope,
and you know, inspires people toaction in their own communities. Richard,

(05:40):
housing segregation is such a serious andstrong topic in just action. Why
of all the ways to address segregationin general, what is it about housing
segregation in particular that made you zeroin on it so much? So we

(06:00):
think that the segregation of housing,the segregation of neighborhoods is the most serious
form of segregation that we have inthis country today because it's underlies and causes
much of the other inequality. Racialinequality exists in this country. The reason,
for example, that African American childrenon average have lower achievement in school

(06:28):
than white children is because so manyAfrican American children, as a result of
government policy explicit government policy, asLeah said, are concentrated in lowly,
low resourced, disadvantaged neighborhoods, whichaffect their ability to learn. They,
for example, are more likely tosuffer lead poisoning, which has a real

(06:50):
impact on cognitive ability. They havemore asthma, which means they more likely
to come to school drowsy because theylive in the neighborhoods that are more polluted
and more vermin in the environment.So housing segregation underlies the achievement gap in
schools that we spend so much timetalking about. It underlies health disparities between

(07:13):
African Americans and whites. African Americanshave shorter life expectancies, greater rates of
cardiovascular disease, for example, insignificant part because they live in less healthy
neighborhoods, more pollution, as Isaid, more diesel trucks driving by their
homes, spewing poisons, more dustin the environment from empty lots that are

(07:35):
undeveloped, and those kinds of thingsaffect health and affect outcomes, as well
as having less access to medical carebecause there are so few primary care physicians
in low income black neighborhoods compared towhite neighborhoods. And we also think that
the residential segregation that we have underliesto a good extent, the use of

(08:00):
young African American men that we spentso much time demonstrating about in the last
few years, if we didn't concentratethe most disadvantaged young men in single neighborhoods
where they have no access to goodjobs, no access to the transportation to
get to those jobs, no accessto schools. As I said before,
that they're overwhelmed by the social andeconomic problems of their children. The police

(08:24):
wouldn't be engaged in so many confrontationswith them, trying to keep them under
control, trying to keep their disaffectionunder control. So racial segregation in neighborhoods
is the underlying cause of so muchother racial inequality in this country. And
it's our view and the argument wemake and just action as well as in
my previous book, The Color ofLaw, is that if we redress segregation,

(08:48):
takes significant steps on our own localcommunities to redress it, we can
affect a lot of other racial inequalityas well. Leah, you folks talk
about lower opportunity areas and higher opportunityareas, and that really hits home for
me because you know, growing up, I started off in a neighborhood that

(09:11):
was over ninety percent people of color, you know, supermajority people of color,
absolutely It's where I grew up Dorchester, Mattapan. And as my parents
moved on in their career, especiallymy mom, and as she was able
to make more money, we wouldmove into different neighborhoods. And at one

(09:35):
point I was living in a neighborhoodthat was less than three percent people of
color. My goodness, talk abouta culture shock, right, So,
and certainly you know that neighborhood therewas an abundance of opportunities and resources and
what have you that that was certainlya higher opportunity neighborhood in comparison to where

(09:58):
I grew up and originally which tothis day, you know, we have
federal lawsuits and what have you inDorchester, in Mattapan, in Roxbury,
super majority people of color neighborhoods.In Boston, you have these lawsuits because
there is a lack of proper transportationand therefore lack of opportunity to get to

(10:20):
the higher paying jobs and what haveyou. Just like what Richard just talked
about, just like what you bothhave written about in Just Action. This
is real, you know, andI've lived it, so I can speak
from experience on that. Talk tome about the higher opportunity neighborhoods, the
lower opportunity neighborhoods, and why youfolks really emphasize those two points there.

(10:41):
When we talk about segregated communities,we're not talking about a benign separation of
people where some people live here andsome people live here and otherwise all else
is equal, you know, separatebut equal has never been true in this
country. So when we talk aboutthe segregation of people, it's also the
segregation of recurs So as African Americanswere limited to living and segregated lower income

(11:05):
neighborhoods, those neighborhoods then became divestedof investments and resources, lower you know,
less well resourced public schools, lessaccess to open space or clean air,
grocery stores, banks, and sothey became areas of what's called lower
opportunity areas. There's just less opportunityfor people in those areas to access good

(11:28):
jobs or high quality education or transportationto get to jobs. And on the
flip side, areas where whites wereallowed to live and where property values then
you know, appreciated and whites gainedwealth from living there. Those areas were
invested in. They had, youknow, access to grocery stores, amenities,
open space, jobs, transportation,good education, and we call those

(11:50):
areas of high opportunity. Leah,I'm going to stay with you on this
one here because this is this isreally interesting and I feel like it's something
that we don't get open and honestdiscussion about, at least in these simple
terms here. I love it whenwe talk about low income housing, for

(12:11):
example, why is it important tohave low income housing available in high opportunity
areas? Because you know, you'regoing to have the folks with the coded
language and the not in my neighborhoodand all this other nonsense here. But
you folks talk about the fact thatlow income housing has significance and should be

(12:35):
in high opportunity areas. Why isthat? Well, it's essential if we're
to redress the wrongs of segregation.In order to do that, we have
to do two things, and oneis open up access to these high opportunity
areas to people who haven't been ableto access those areas before. Those are
more often lower income people, AfricanAmerican families. They need to be able

(12:58):
to access areas of high opportunity sothey can achieve the levels of you know,
stability and health outcomes that the whitefamilies who've lived in those areas for
generations have been able to achieve.And we also need to invest in those
lower income segregated African American neighborhoods thatare now lower opportunity areas to make them
areas of higher opportunity. Those aretwo essential kind of prongs of the approach

(13:24):
of redressing and challenging segregation. Wehave to do focus on both of those
things because we don't only want to, you know, challenge segregation as it
exists today and open up all areasto all people so that there's free choice
of where to live, but alsothat where you live doesn't have the same

(13:45):
kind of determinative impacts on your lifeoutcomes as it does today. Well said
Richard, do you have anything toadd to that. We don't think that
segregated housing inside the otherwise higher opportunityneighborhood is a good idea. What we
advocate, and in fact we givean example in our book Just Action of

(14:07):
a project in Quincy, Massachusetts.What we advocate is mixed income and mixed
race housing, so that there's avariety of people in a new project.
They're not concentrating just low income people. In it. There are some low
income units, there are some middleincome units. There are some market rate
units for people who can afford them. Because you know, African Americans in

(14:30):
particular, but not only African Americanswho are middle class can't find housing in
today's market, we need to provideopportunities for them as well to move to
higher opportunity neighborhoods. Because middle classAfrican Americans for the most part, live
in neighborhoods that are less well resourcedthan middle class whites do. So we

(14:52):
need to create projects that they aremixed income as well as mixed race.
We need some low income housing andhigh opportunity neighborho but we also need middle
income housing as well as market ratehousing so that we can have an integrated
community where people can get to knoweach other of different races and incomes as
well. You know, Richard,home ownership for black and brown folks are

(15:18):
at an all time low throughout thenation, and you know we've been trending
in the wrong direction for a whilenow. In Just Action, you and
Lea talk about down payment assistance.Talk to me more about that. Why
is that so significant? Well,it's important because due to the policies the

(15:39):
federal government in particular followed in thetwentieth century of subsidizing white suburban communities from
which African Americans were excluded for middleclass and lower income whites. By subsidizing
those, they placed whites in communitiesthat then appreciated rapidly in value. The

(16:03):
examples are all over the country.They're in suburban Boston, They're in New
York and from out to the WestCoast of suburbs that were created by the
Federal Housing Administration and Veterans Administration forwhites only, for moderate income whites only,
not for wealthy people, for moderateincome whites. The people who were

(16:25):
in the nineteen forties and fifties,the whites who bought those homes didn't expect
to get rich as a result ofdoing so. We had a housing shortage.
They needed a place to live.They were grateful that the federal government
was offering them a place to live. But over the next couple of generations,
those white families gained wealth because thosehomes unexpectedly rapidly appreciated at the time,

(16:48):
in the early mid twentieth century orearly nineteen fifties and late nineteen forties,
those suburban homes. When they werecreated, they cost about one hundred
thousand dollars a piece in today's money, about twice and median income. Any
African American with a job in thepostwar boom could have afforded a home at
that price with a If they werereturning war veterans, they could have had

(17:10):
no down payment assistance. With atwenty year mortgage, they could easily afford
to pay a mortgage at that price. But those homes are no longer selling
for one hundred thousand dollars, notin the suburban Boston and not anywhere else
in the country. They sell forthree four hundred and five hundred thousand dollars
in some places a million dollars ormore one hundred thousand dollars homes well,

(17:33):
the whites gained that wealth. Theyused it to send their children to college.
They used it to take care oftemporary emergencies, maybe medical emergencies or
temporary unemployment. They used it tosubsidize their retirements, and they used it
to bequeathed wealth to their children andgrandchildren, who then had down payments for
their own homes. African Americans whowere prohibited by federal policy written federal policy

(17:57):
from participating in this pro that generatedwell. So the result is we have
an enormous wealth gap. And oneof the reasons that we have such a
smaller share of African Americans owning homesthan there are whites is because whites,
who've inherited this equity from their parents, have down payments for their own homes

(18:18):
and African Americans don't. So oneof the things that we can do,
one of the many things that wecan do in a local community, is
create programs of down payment assistance forAfrican Americans who, but for unconstitutional and
unlawful federal policy, would have haddown payments for their homes the way whites
do. Leah and just Action.You folks talk about credit scores and its

(18:44):
impact on the ability for black andbrown households to be able to purchase property.
You know, it's a real interestingway that the system is set up
because even somebody who is middle class, you know, they may not necessarily
have the credit score. I'm talkingabout a black person, mind, you
may not necessarily have the credit scorethat will put them in the best position

(19:07):
to convince a bank to lend themenough money to purchase a home. But
in just action, you folks talkabout some things that can be done in
order to improve upon the current creditscore system. Talk to me about that.
So, the credit scoring system isa system that is racially neutral in

(19:30):
its intent. It doesn't have aracially discriminatory purpose or intent behind it,
but it does have a racially discriminatoryimpact. And that's because how it works
is your credit score is a ratingof your future likelihood of repaying a debt
that's based on your past financial history, which makes some sense, but it
only factors in a certain type offinancial history to create that credit score,

(19:53):
and that it's a type of financialhistory that whites are far more likely to
have than African Americans for several reasons, many of them the results of decades
of segregation and divestment in segregated AfricanAmerican communities. So, if you have
access to a local bank branch,to credit cards, to mortgages in the

(20:14):
past, and you pay your debtson time, that factors into your credit
score and you have a higher creditscore as a result. But if you
live in a neighborhood that has nobank branches, which you know, most
segregated African American neighborhoods, they havefewer bank branches than similar white neighborhoods.
You don't have access to traditional financialinstitutions, and so you might have to

(20:34):
rely on non traditional financial institutions likepayday lenders. Now, if you borrow
from a payday lender and pay backyour debt in full, even with their
exorbitant interest rates, that financial historydoesn't get factored into your credit score.
Similarly, if you haven't owned ahome in the past, but you've been
a renter your whole life and havenever missed a rent payment, and here

(20:56):
you are applying for a mortgage tobuy your first home, that financial hitty
history of being a reliable renter whopaid your debts on time, that's also
not factored into a credit score.So, as a result of this,
just how the system is designed,African Americans are far less likely to have
a credit score at all than whites, and when they do, their credit

(21:18):
score is less likely to be highenough to qualify for a mortgage, not
because they're less you know, lesslikely to repay their mortgage, or that
they're not you know, high qualityborrowers, just because they don't have that
financial history that factors into a creditscore. So credit scores, obviously,
they're national systems. They're run bythree companies mostly, and there's talk on

(21:41):
the national level to change the creditscoring algorithms to start to include rental payment
history. But while we wait forthat to be implemented, there's a lot
we can do on the local level, and that is we can work with
our local banks and financial institutions tostart to in their own bank branches,
their own local bank is to startto factor rental payment history into their own

(22:02):
credit scoring algorithms. And we describeingest action some banks and credit unions around
the country that are starting to dothat. It's feasible, it's definitely doable.
Banks likely won't do it unless they'rethe community around them is pressuring them
to do so. But when theystart to do that and start factoring in
rental payment history, it really opensup credit access in a huge way to

(22:23):
many African American families who, likeyou said, have the income to be
able to pay a mortgage. Maybethey have down payment assistance to help them
buy the home, but they justdon't have the credit and the credit score
to qualify for that mortgage, andthis can really help them now, Leah,
trust is not something that is usuallygiven. It's earned, and certainly

(22:45):
in my experience being in various communitymeetings. For instance, when I'm in
a community meeting in the room ismajority black, and some white lady comes
in and says, hey, you'vebeen wronged. I identified a problem,
and I think I have some solutionswhich can help you. It can all

(23:10):
sound great, but the automatic responseis not going to be oh, yes,
please come over here and help us. It's more like, who are
you? What is there another shoethat's going to drop? Why are you
coming in here to help us?You know, is there an ulterior motive?
What are you really up to?And it really takes time in most

(23:36):
instances in order for people to actuallyget to the point where it's like,
Okay, you're all right, Yes, you know what I mean. If
you're going to contribute, then yes, come on over here, let's see
how you can help us. Talkto me about those moments when apprehension turns
into trust, which then turns intocollaboration. Because you are a highly accomplished

(24:00):
You're someone that's worked with community associationsand various nonprofit organizations as a consultant housing
advocate the whole nine yards here.Your resume is pretty strong and you have
the results. You certainly have gonearound and you've helped people. Talk to
me about the moment where apprehension turnsinto trust, that's a good question.

(24:23):
I think that moment is likely differentfor everyone, and it can come from
you know, I've seen many peoplewho've read the Color of Law and didn't
really understand how we got to beso segregated, And once they have that
understanding, they can they start tounderstand that intentional action can undo it.
You know, if we start tosee that segregation isn't an accident then and

(24:47):
that intentional action created segregation, wecan start to see that intentional action can
begin to undo it. So thatcan be one AHA moment for people.
I think another is learning what communitiesacross the country are doing. You know,
since Just Action came out, I'vebeen traveling around the country talking to
groups in all kinds of communities aboutwhat we talk about in Just Action,

(25:08):
and they are implementing many of thesethings in their own neighborhoods, in their
own communities. And I think hearingabout what other communities are doing that it
is possible that it takes you know, organizing and community action and people coming
together to learn together and then takeaction together. And it can be inspiring
to hear what's happening in other partsof the country to learn that we can

(25:30):
also do that here in our ownneighborhood. So I think that's another moment
for people. And then I thinkcoming together with people you know, of
other races in their own communities tolearn about what their experiences are, to
start to develop some social relationships andsocial connections across race, you know,
across the segregated neighborhoods of our communities, to then start to take action together

(25:53):
to improve those conditions and remedy theimpacts of segregation. That can also inspire
people too, to imagine what theycan achieve together. Richard, I'm going
to ask you an interesting question here. Let's see if you ever heard this
one before. But seriously, Richard, are you black? No? Okay,

(26:15):
so, Richard, why are youso committed to ending segregation? I
mean, this is legitimately is yourlife's work. This is something that you've
been at for a while. Here, why my focus is on helping all
of us. I don't think thatending segregation is a favor we do to

(26:36):
black people. It's a way tocreate a decent society for all of us.
I'm an American. I'm offended personallyby how our government violated its constitution
and its laws to create a societyof unequals that is much less comfortable for
anybody to live in than a societythat didn't have this enormous in equals.

(27:00):
So I feel an obligation as anAmerican citizen to fix constitutional violations. Of
course, I understand that African Americansare the most serious victims of those violations,
but it affects all of us,and I'm not doing this work as
a favorite to African Americans in particular. I'm glad that it is received well

(27:23):
in the African American community. I'lltell you one way. The thing that
I'm particularly proud of if I cantalk about this. You know, many
African Americans who live in disadvantaged neighborhoodslook around them and they see how everybody
is poor and less well educated,and they think maybe there's something wrong with

(27:48):
them. I've had many African Americansright to me saying that they read The
Color of Law, they read mybook, they realized that This was not
a failure of their own part tobe living in such unequal conditions. This
was something that was imposed on themunconstitutionally, and it made them realize that

(28:08):
they weren't at fault, and theybecame much more confident about their ability not
only to fight segregation, but intheir lives generally. So it's important to
learn this history for everybody. Thesame thing is true of whites. Whites
see so many African Americans who weredisadvantaged and poor, and they think maybe

(28:33):
that's a natural condition of African Americans. They create these stereotypes. Once they
learn that this is not the faultof the victims, but it's something that
was created by our government, itforces them to reconsider their stereotypes, which
makes all of us a better society. So, yes, I'm proud of
the fact that this is helpful toAfrican Americans. But I'm doing this primarily

(29:00):
because as an America and all ofus have an obligation to readress segregation.
You know, at the end ofthe day, intention matters, It absolutely
does. What is the purpose?Why are you really doing this thing?
And kudos to you Richard, andkudos to you Leah. You folks and
it's clear in just Action, andit was clear in the color of law.

(29:23):
You folks have great intentions and youare getting results, which is even
more important. People can see froma tangible standpoint that a lot of what
you outline not only is it possible, it can work. We have examples
of it working. I know herein Massachusetts, Boston in particular. Everything

(29:47):
that you've outlined and just Action detailsa good chunk of my career over the
past twenty years. I've seen alot of this stuff work. I've seen
what happens when we don't invest incommunities that are underserved. I see what
happens when community groups get together anddecide enough is enough and start holding elected

(30:11):
officials accountable. I see what happenswhen community groups vote against certain businesses and
banks and what have you from movinginto the community and doing business in the
community. If you're not going tosupport the community and be part of the
solution, we certainly aren't going tolet you in so you can continue to
take from us. There's got tobe a partnership, right. I've seen

(30:37):
that, seen that in action.I participated in that, and I've seen
the positive results of what can happenwhen people get involved, take it seriously
and see it through quite frankly,So you know, I commend the both
of you for what you're doing here, especially with Just Action, because it's

(31:02):
a guide, it's a blueprint,it's tangible, and it's going to be
easy for folks to take that andthen run with it, and hopefully,
you know, folks do Lee.What's the best case scenario? What do
you hope folks walk away with afterreading Just Action? I hope they walk
away understanding that we all have anobligation to do something to address and redress

(31:27):
the segregation of our communities, andthat obligation is not impossible to live up
to that. There's a lot thatwe can do. It's not impossible.
It might be daunting, but it'sit's doable, and that to do that,
we have to start talking to eachother, working together, developing connections
across races, and then taking actionin our communities. It's not rocket science.

(31:49):
The same question for you, Richard, best case scenario, what do
you hope folks walk away with afterreading Just Action confidence that change is possible?
I do, if you'll permit me, Duke, have some disagreement with
something that you said earlier. Yousaid we're going backwards. We're not going

(32:10):
backwards, We're going forwards, butmuch too slowly. You mentioned how your
parents were able to move to aneighborhood that was all wide except for three
percent people of color. Well,prior to the Fair Housing Act, there
were no such neighborhoods like that.Now there are a few. We need

(32:31):
many more of them. But we'vemade a lot of progress in the last
fifty sixty years, and the FairHousing Act created more opportunities than we have
yet seized to redress segregation. So, as LEAs said, she's hopeful,
I'm hopeful too because and one ofthe reasons I'm hopeful is because I've seen

(32:52):
us make progress in the past whenpeople step up and try to take action
to improve all of our lives.Well, Richard, that's exactly why we
call the show tell Us the Truth. I appreciate that solid, solid take
there, and solid perspective. Leah, what's the best way that anyone listening

(33:15):
can get a copy of Just Action? We have a website, justactionbook dot
org. All the information about thebook is there links to purchase it.
You can purchase it anywhere books aresold. We also have a substat column,
which is like a free newsletter thatwe write periodically to update issues in

(33:35):
the book and to expand on newideas and success stories from around the country,
and that is at justaction dot substackdot com. So between those two
websites you can find everything you needto know about the book and about us.
Oh, Richard and Leah, thankyou so much for taking the time
to tell us the truth. Thankyou so much for having us. Thank

(33:57):
you, Duke, it's a pleasureworking with you. Awesome conversation there with
Richard and Leah, And certainly,you know, I definitely encourage folks to
check out just Action because again,this is a blueprint on what to do,
how to organize with community groups,what to focus on in order to
bring about change. And certainly,you know, as we celebrate Black History

(34:21):
Month, change is something that's necessary, and this is a time to reflect
on where we are, where we'vebeen, and more importantly, where we
intend to go, not just asindividuals but as communities. Certainly, something
like just Action is a great toolin our toolbox to utilize in order to

(34:43):
make life far better, not onlyfor ourselves but for our future generations.
So again, shout out to Leah, shout out to Richard. That was
a great conversation there, great book. Switching speeds here, we are going
to have a conversation with Hunter Walkerand Loupe Lupin. You know, these

(35:04):
folks have written The Truce, whichis about the future of the Democratic Party.
Now listen. Regardless of what politicalaffiliation you are, that doesn't really
matter. This is an informative guidehere in its own right in regard to
one of the two major parties andhow it's gotten where it is in recent

(35:27):
years, and in an election yearwhere folks are making some pretty serious decisions,
especially regarding who is going to leadour country for the next four years,
this is a great conversation that you'llwant to hear. So without further
ado, check out this exclusive interviewwith Hunter Walker and Loupe Lupin. My

(35:50):
name's Lupe Lupin. I'm a lawyerin New York City who's gotten interested in
politics for many, many years andtook up first social media and then reporting
and have worked with I've worked withHunter since twenty eighteen on doing reporting on
all aspects of politics, and wecame to focus on the Democratic Party,

(36:14):
but I'm on social media as NCSouth Paul. I have a newsletter named
Paul Prince, and I am aco author of The Truce. And my
name is Hunter Walker. I ama reporter and author based out of New
York City. I was a WhiteHouse correspondent throughout the Trump administration, did
a book on January sixth, andI'm currently working as an investigative reporter at

(36:38):
Talking Points Memo And for the pasttwo years I've been working with Lupe who's
one of my good buddies, onkind of doing this top down look behind
the scenes of the Democratic Party atthis really really crucial turning point for them
and the rest of us. AndI'm here to tell you, to tell
you the truth. I was aWhite House correspondent throughout the Trump administration,

(37:00):
and we saw this glut of coverageof Trump, which makes a lot of
sense because I think he is anextraordinary figure in American history. He's you
know, upending the political and socialorder as we know it. But at
the same time, the Democrats arethe opposition. They are at least half

(37:20):
of that story. And amid thispile of Trump books and you know,
behind the scenes reporting, we justdidn't see a similar examination of the Democrats,
so I felt like they're an importantstory. But also, as someone
who you know, was on thecampaign trail for the past couple cycles,
including twenty sixteen, I saw somethingreally interesting there. This was a party

(37:43):
that was facing both an existential crisisin Trump and an internal identity crisis as
it decided how to deal with this, you know, new progressive movement that
we saw most directly around Bernie Sanders. So I really just wanted to dive
in and kind of help people understand, you know, as the Democrats face
off against Donald Trump, who's doingthat and how? And I'll just chime

(38:07):
in to say I agree with everythingHunter said. I think we both you
know, experienced the Trump years reportedon Trump ourselves and realized how intensely the
spotlight is focused on Trump and nationalmedia right now, and felt like there
were untold stories that are outside of, you know, sort of the circle
of that spotlight that needed to beput into light, into the light,

(38:30):
brought into the light, and wewanted to tell the truth about where the
Democratic Party was headed and what sortof struggles it was facing. Well,
gentlemen, it is an absolute honorto have you here on tell Us the
Truth, and I'm going to makea very strong statement and hopefully it doesn't
upset too many people, but I'mgoing to say it. The Truth is

(38:51):
legitimately the best book I've read,and well over a year. That doesn't
mean I haven't read other pieces ofworld that have been great, but this
is it for me. This isspeaking my language, This is something that
I relate to, and this issomething that I know that you listeners out
there. Tell Us the Truth audience, this is it in an election year,

(39:15):
in a society in which people areso turned off by the exclusive and
members only nature of politics, itis so refreshing to pick up a book
that you know, it's a shortread first and foremost, so they just
get right to the point, incrediblemix of humor, incredibly detailed though and

(39:37):
inside information on what's going on withthe Democrat Party in particular. The cloak
and dagger stuff has gone away,and we really get some straightforward, sensible
insight on how decisions have been madethat quite frankly affects us all. So,
you know, Lupe, I wantto start with you because there is

(40:00):
an interesting and we're gonna jump arounda little bit here, but there is
an interesting insight on Bernie Sanders andhis two presidential campaigns in particular, but
really on the second goal round,the fact that his team wanted to make
him you know, for lack ofa better term, see seem more relatable

(40:22):
to voters and what have you.They wanted to humanize Bernie in a manner
that they felt they just didn't getdone the first goal round. Talk to
me about, you know, whatyou were able to find out as it
relates to that second Bernie Sanders campaignand how that went. The Bernie Sanders
campaign, you know, knew thatthey had really, you know, struck

(40:45):
a nerve amongst progressives. They had, you know, a real boost of
energy, but they were also notmaking the connection with some folks on on
a personal level. They saw thatin their survey research, and so the
team tried to think through ways tomake Bernie Sanders more of an approachable figure
and more of a personal politician ratherthan just someone who represented progressive ideology.

(41:07):
Henter, did I get that prettyclose to right? You know. I
spent a lot of time with Bernieand the people around him on the trail
in both twenty sixteen and twenty twenty, and you know, twenty sixteen,
the Bernie Sanders what he called quoteunquote revolution, was a surprise to many.

(41:27):
And I think as much as kindof he's always in you know,
oh my god, like forty plusyears in politics, had faith that things
would sort of go his way andthat this was possible. It's easy to
forget now that he's kind of ahuge celebrity how much of a long shot

(41:49):
he was in twenty sixteen. Andyou know, that campaign essentially began with
him walking out of the capitol,you know, and having a very small
press conference by a handful of reporters, and just weeks later he was having
these rallies with thousands and thousands ofpeople. So, you know, the
twenty sixteen campaign was sort of puttogether on the fly, and by twenty

(42:10):
twenty, you know, it wasclear that Bernie Sanders had a movement behind
him. He had record small donorfunds, and he had a professionalized staff,
and most importantly, they'd learned alot of lessons from twenty sixteen.
And one of the things that cameaway from that for many people was that

(42:30):
they wanted Bernie to tell more ofhis story. They wanted him to talk
more about his experience, you know, growing up in New York as the
child of Jewish immigrants, and theycrafted what was dubbed internally quote the Human
Bernie Memo, which was a reallyextraordinary document that we obtained, and it

(42:51):
was sort of an effort to sayBernie like, if you connect with people
on a personal level, you mightbe able to win. And in talking
to Bernie himself we interviewed him forthis book, and reading that document,
you know, we found this wasreally difficult for him. I mean,
you know, he basically ran awayfrom his childhood after the very painful death

(43:13):
of his mother. In his teenageyears, he moved from New York up
to Vermont. I'm from Brooklyn,like he is. And one of the
details I find most fascinating is heeven became a Red Sox fan. That's
how much he left New York behind. And he's just never been able to
talk about this. So they didtry to incorporate it a little bit more

(43:34):
in twenty sixteen. But you know, Bernie has always been someone who kind
of disdains what he calls political gossipand really likes to focus on policy.
I think some of his staff feelslike that's been to his detriment. And
I think that's an example of somethingthat we try to bring out and touch
on a lot in this book,which is that politics is basically office politics

(43:58):
with incredibly high stakes. These arereally really personal dramas and really individual characters,
but their decisions and their eccentricities,you know, have national historical implications.
And you know, Bernie came reallyclose in twenty twenty. I think
we found, you know, closerthan people may have ever realized. But
one of the things that held himback, according to many on his staff,

(44:21):
was his reluctance to kind of shareon a deeper personal level with the
voters. I love what you justsaid there, Hunter, These are a
lot of personal interactions and relationship building, and everyone can relate to that.
I don't care who you are,no matter what you do for work,
school, whatever, and in yourfamily and your community, the relationships that

(44:45):
you build, including at an earlyage, and how those evolved, and
that can impact where you're going tobe, how far you're going to make
it in life, and certainly politicsis a great example of that. Both
of you illustrate that so very well. In fact, when we talk about

(45:06):
Jim Clyburn and his impact on thepresidential races on the Democrat side, and
just the fact that everyone has to, as you folks said in the book,
kiss the ring, so to speak, when when showing up to one
of his events and you know,pitching themselves and trying to drum up support

(45:28):
of why they should be the Democratnominee and what have you. I'll start
with you Hunter on on this fronthere. Talk to me about kissing the
Clyburn ring. Well, you know, I have spent weeks in South Carolina.
I've also spent weeks in Nevada,Iowa, and New Hampshire. That's
because those are the traditional early states, and I think, you know,

(45:50):
we have a couple chapters in thebook that deal with the primary calendar and
how it came to be, andthose states, even though they have a
small population, wheeled tremendous influence inthe presidential race. And South Carolina,
you know, is a red state. It brought us Nicky Haley and Tim
Scott, but it has a vibrantDemocratic politics and there is no bigger figure

(46:19):
in that than Jim Clyburn, whoyou know is the top ranked Democrat in
the state he's been so for manymany years. He kind of came up
through the civil rights movement, sohis endorsement has always been, you know,
one of the most coveted things forDemocrats as they sort of worked through
the early state calendar. It's givenadded importance because in prior years where New

(46:44):
Hampshire and Iowa were ahead of SouthCarolina on the map, you basically had
an electorate that was ninety percent whiteuntil you got to South Carolina, where
the Democratic primary electorate is seventy percentor so. So Jim Clyburn and his
state were really seen as the voiceof black voters in the early primary process.

(47:07):
And that's really been particularly important forJoe Biden because you know, he
was struggling going into South Carolina andClyburn and the black electorate there delivered him
a victory, a message, anda mandate that helped propel him to the
White House. So that led tokind of the ultimate kissing of the ring

(47:30):
for Jim Clyburn. I mean,every primary cycle he matters. He's always
had this fish fry. Everyone youknow, commutes out to this sort of
rural spread and you know, underthe hot sun, they eat all of
this incredibly delicious soul food until latein the night and stand on the stage
and their Jim Clyburn t shirts andjust you know, literally shake hands with

(47:53):
all of his personal friends and family. But this time, the the devotion
to Clyburn went beyond the primaries,or went beyond the twenty twenty primaries,
and you saw Biden sort of directthe DNC to do this massive reformation of
the primary calendar, and one ofthe things it did was give more importance

(48:15):
to South Carolina. And Lupe actuallytalked to Jim Clyburn personally, who was
like, yeah, I wanted tokeep us in the early state window.
He denies ever having sort of wantedthem to move up as far as they
did. You know, they've kindof superseded New Hampshire, and definitely Iowai
was out of the process now,but you know, South Carolina now this

(48:37):
year and going forward could matter morethan ever. And part of that was
from an effort to pay respects toClyburn, There's no question about it.
But also it's part of the Democratsattempt to diversify the primary electorate beyond that
ninety percent white block of Iowa andNew Hampshire because they think it will give
them a more diverse and competitive selectionof candidates coming forward. You know,

(49:01):
And Lupe, we're gonna go toyou about Clyburn, but I want to
I want to throw this in herefor a second here because I want to
get your take. Jim Clyburn spendsa lot of time here in Massachusetts.
I'm based in Boston, and youknow, working in state and municipal government,
I've been around and been in therooms and seeing who's doing what here.

(49:21):
In fact, Jim's niece, CherylClyburn, she actually runs an organization
called mass Vote, which is responsiblefor literally getting people organized and voting and
what have you. And it's somethingthat the Democrat Party depends on quite frankly
in this region. So, andJim was also very close to former Representative

(49:43):
Mike Capolano, who eventually lost towho we have now, Ayanna Pressley.
So Clyburn legitimately is a heavyweight,and he knows he's a heavyweight and he
carries that. So you spending timewith him loop as a as a writer,
as a journalist, and what haveyou? Talk to me about your
impression of this legitimately, this kingmaker so to speak. Well, So

(50:08):
one of the joys of writing thisbook has been developing a deeper understanding of
some of the figures we cover.I'd but coming into this I knew a
few anecdotes about Cleburne's life. Iknew he, you know, he had
involvement in the civil rights movement,but had sort of backed out on being
freedom writer over prudential concerns. Andwe found out, over the you know,

(50:31):
the course of researching and learning moreabout his career a really much more
contextual picture which we tried to putin the book of his rise, how
he'd been arrested at a civil rightsdemonstration and had actually met his wife while
he was in jail, and itwas meeting her as a result of that

(50:52):
arrest that sort of led him toback off a little bit from some of
the more ambitious activism that he'd beeninvolved in. So the the Kingmaker thing
in Massachusetts is fascinating something I didn'tknow much about, but that, you
know, I do find him atruly a truly well integrated figure in democratic

(51:15):
politics and someone who's you know,sort of everywhere and nowhere, and that
you see his him getting respect,you see everyone traveling to the fish fry.
You see everyone doing what they can, but finding his fingerprints on a
particular decision sometimes can be, youknow, a difficult task. And so

(51:37):
were we were interested to speak withhim briefly about the primary calendar because you
know, it came in the contextof asking him, hey, did you
talk to President Biden about putting SouthCarolina first? What were your reasons for
doing that? And he denied itand denied it and denied it, and
then towards the end of the conversationhe turned to me and gave me a
little link and was like, Ijust wanted to be in the window,
meaning that the early state period,and then he walked away. And that

(52:01):
I think is sort of is agood picture of him as a political as
a political kingmaker, a mover andshaker, is that he is a very
deft politician and someone who is bothyou know, able to gather a lot
of power and is also able toto move things in a major way without

(52:22):
necessarily being you know, having tothrow his weight around in public. And
Duke, I think you were touchingon something very interesting when you were talking
about his relationships in Massachusetts, becauseyou know, outside of the presidential primary,
where he has this reputation as akingmaker. You know, Clyburton has
been an incredibly influential voice on thehill and in Democratic politics. I mean,

(52:47):
you know, we saw in thiskind of leadership transition how he managed
to kind of hold himself onto ahigher rank even as you know, Nancy
Pelosi and Steny Hoyer stepped aside.But also you know, as you've seen
in Massachusetts with Aana Presley as squadmember, you know, we are seeing
these transitions and battles between you know, more moderate traditional Democrats and the new

(53:10):
progressives. And clyburn has inserted himselfinto that conversation and fight quite a bit
as kind of a defender and voicefor you know, moderation over progressivism.
That pragmatism he displayed and sort ofgetting off the bus during the Civil rights
movement has carried through and in additionto you know, throwing endorsements around and

(53:35):
what have you. Folks may recallhe was one of the loudest voices arguing
that Democrats were hurting themselves with thedefund the police message. So again,
I think, you know, likeBernie Cliburn is an example of you know,
one of these incredible characters, andyou know, his personal history,
his perspective, and his strategy isreally defining you know, how the party

(54:01):
is moving forward at this point.Well, and I'm glad you brought that
up. I mean, the progressivemovement has really taken the country by storm
within the Democrat Party, and likeyou said, a lot of these traditionalists
are fighting back against it, andit is turning into a question of age.

(54:22):
You know, you have a lotof folks who have some ideas and
they want to step in and takeover, and you have some folks who
have been there who were saying,hey, we're not ready to go yet.
And unfortunately that infighting can result ina fractured party. We see it.
It's a thing. One of theprime examples in Lupe, I'll start

(54:44):
with you. One of the primeexamples is AOC. She really has turned
into a celebrity in her own rightbecause of her staunch progressivism and the fact
that she's not backing down on thesethings. She's willing to stand up to
everybody, including Nancy Pelosi. Andyet over the past i'd say two years,

(55:07):
it almost feels like she's had herhands slapped, so to speak.
Because of it. Talk to meabout your impression on the rise, and
really, I guess the cooling offof AOC. This is something we spent
a lot of time reporting on andsomething that we took a very careful look

(55:28):
at, and we you know AOC'srise. I think a lot of people
are familiar with the short version ofthe story where she was out on it,
you know, took on a realpower broker in the Democratic Party and
Joe Crowley, someone who had representedQueen's this congressional district in Queens and I
think a better than Bronx for quitea while, was a part of the

(55:51):
Queen's machine up here where he wasalso the chairman of the Queen's Democratic Party
and had come from the sort ofmainst stream dynasty the control of Queen politics
for a long time. And wesee AOC come into the race as a
member of this group called Justice Democrats, you know, a candidate sponsored by
them, and you know, workreally hard with a shoe string campaign,

(56:15):
getting out on the streets and usingthis sort of progressive launching pad to upset
a major power broker and everyone.Most people are probably familiar with the moment
where she sees the primary results forthe first time on TV, and you
know, her jaw drops and she'ssort of shocked, and from that moment

(56:37):
she becomes this megawatt celebrity in politics. And one of the things we chronicle
in the book is that she hada sort of difficult relationship with her sudden
stardom. She's not terribly extroverted.She is described by many of our sources
as an introvert and someone who prefersto, you know, have her private

(56:59):
sphere, and she is not alwaysyou know, into doing the big events,
on the big stages. And atthe same time, she also understands
I think her her profile is areal asset. And part of our reporting
is at how what a difficult timeshe had coming to the decision to endorse
Bernie Sanders in the twenty twenty race, worrying that that he would in some

(57:22):
way eclipse her own persona. Andso I think what you see with AOC
is someone who was a major progressivewho obviously faced a great deal of resistance
after she became this sort of progressive. Uh. I'm not sure if leader
is the right the right term,but the progressive star on the hill,

(57:43):
someone who is covered in detail,not only by by mainstream news, but
also by these right wing news outletsthat were looking to pounce on any misstep,
and someone who attracted a lot ofpolarizing attention the use see you see
her relationship with that, you know, be her relationship to her on stardom

(58:08):
and to her her political career becomecomplicated in ways that proceed from her personality
as well as from the sort ofreaction she engendered from the system. It's
just fascinating, Hunter. What's yourtake as we talk about these new insurgent
progressives, right, their relationship withtheir own party has been quite complex,

(58:31):
right, And you know, wesaw insurgencies like AOC's unseating of Joe Crowley.
We saw AOC in the squad kindof have a very contentious relationship with
former Speaker Pelosi in their first coupleof years on the hill. At the
same time, we saw folks likePrivilege Iopaul, the chair of the Congressional

(58:53):
Progressive Caucus, become a really staunchally for Joe Biden in the first years
of his administration. And she actuallywas a real partner with White House Chief
of Staff Ron Klain in passing alot of the biden agenda, as centrists
like Joe Manchin and Josh Gotttheimer endedup, you know, becoming sort of

(59:17):
thorns in the President's side. Andthat's really really interesting because the president,
as you'll remember in twenty twenty,ran as an alternative to moderates. You
know, he explicitly sort of echoedthat Jim Clyburn pragmatism and presented himself as
you know, a more realistic andsafe path forward for Democrats. So,

(59:42):
you know, these two wings ofthe party have really really had a complex
relationship. You know, we tryto delve into that and really let people
know what was going on behind thescenes, rather than you know, turning
it into some kind of simple caricature. Uh. You know, they've been
friends and they've been enemies, andI think the one thing that's clear is

(01:00:07):
going forward, a key question iswhether Biden will be able to maintain that
alliance he built with the progressives,that surprising alliance that gives our book its
title, and add to his coalitionand hold it together as he faces what
is almost certainly at this point arematch with Donald Trump. What do you

(01:00:32):
hope folks who read the Truth walkaway with Hunter what's the real message that
they that they need to carry withthem at the conclusion of reading the truth.
So you know, our our ourour book. Publishers and publicists will
probably kill me for saying this becausebecause nuance doesn't sell, right, But

(01:00:55):
I really hope they do take awaythat complex picture. You know, we've
seen this sort of cable news narrativeof Dems in disarray, right, and
that's been ridiculous. Right. TheDemocrats won the White House in the last
election. They overperformed every expectation inthe last midterms, even though, as

(01:01:15):
we explore in the book, theysort of fell short of a House majority
because of you know, bloodbath inNew York, which is of course the
last place you'd expect it for Dems. So this is like a party that
you know, that's a perfect example. They've they've achieved success, but they

(01:01:36):
also have some problems and there aresome fissures within the party, even though
as I was just saying, youknow, they don't really go along really
simple and easy lines. So Ihope people will you know, kind of
embrace some of that complexity with us. I mean, I think, you
know, as much as we reportthat there are rifts in the Democratic Party

(01:01:58):
and questions for it as it goesforward. I think that's happening in a
context where you know, the RepublicanParty has a level of chaos that you
know, is completely beyond anything we'reseeing on the Democratic side of the aisle.
I mean, they have they havea presidential candidate who you know,
has a pile of criminal charges againsthim, who you know, is viciously

(01:02:22):
insulting a lot of people in thecountry and people within his own party.
They stormed the capital, and youknow, are are firmly rooted in some
deranged conspiracies about about the last election, about the gay community, about any
number of issues. So there's alot of chaos on there, and yet
we are trying to look at thecomplexities of the Democratic Party in that context.

(01:02:45):
And I think that gets to whatis kind of an overwhelming point here,
which is, you know, theDemocrats care about reality, they care
about doing the right thing, andthey are also trying to hold together a
diverse coalition. Uh. And thoseare all laudable things, but in a
way they lead to challenges, whereaswith the Republicans, you know, they

(01:03:06):
have a homogeneous white majority coalition followingin lockstep behind their leader Trump and in
a way that can be easier.So I think that's really the message.
You know, the Democrats are facingchallenges, and they are the challenges that
come with a diverse party that caresabout small d democracy. Whether they can

(01:03:29):
overcome those, particularly given Republican structuraladvantages like that dichotomy and like the electoral
college, I don't know, butwe tried to set the stage so people
sort of have the ultimate primer asthey get ready to watch this next election.
So I mean the question is whyI read a book instead of you
know, making it a tweet ora two line sort of you know synopsis

(01:03:52):
that the reason we read a bookis because we think we have some really
interesting stories to tell about what makesthe Democratic Party in you know, in
contemporary politics, what it is andit is you know, the story of
AOC and the story of Jim Clyburn, and the story of Bernie Sanders's campaign,
and the story of Iowa Democratic Partyin twenty twenty and how that caucus

(01:04:15):
just didn't produce a result. Allof those stories which are each on their
own, you know, I thinkinteresting, riveting tales, and we try
to tell them in a way theyhaven't been told before, but all of
them connect to give the reader anunderstanding of this sort of fragile piece that
we are describing in the Democratic Party, which we argue is what was an
essential element to Joe Biden winning andkicking Donald Trump out of office, and

(01:04:40):
you know that I think would bean essential element to keeping him out of
office as we come into this rematchin twenty twenty four. And so I
hope people are willing to give usthe time to listen to these stories and
to see how how the connections wedraw between them, you know, contribute
to a fuller picture of our politicsand of the Democrats Party than you can
get from a simple snappy tweet ora simple motto. What's the best way

(01:05:06):
that folks can grab a copy ofthe Truth? Loop Beakers? Again,
this is a book that I highlyrecommend, and I feel that, especially
this year, it's something that weall should be taking a look at.
Absolutely. So The Truce is availablewherever major books are sold. We hope
it's already in your bookstores because itcame out yesterday, but it may take

(01:05:28):
a couple of days from to filterinto bookstores, but you can find it
on Amazon or Binds a Noble orWalmart or target any of the major online
booksellers, and also our publisher WW. Norton sells it directly to consumers
as well, so you can searchon their website. If you go to
my Twitter feed, n y C, Southpaw or Hunters, hunter W or

(01:05:50):
any of our other socials, you'llalso find links to order the book,
and we really hope you do,because we want people to read it,
and we hope that that's the waythat it that it gets out there is
by people reading it and telling theirfriends about it and hopefully hopefully sharing some
of the stories that we were ableto find. Till next time, be
can't yourselves and be kind to others. This is E. Duke Bennett and

(01:06:15):
you've been listening to tell Us theTruth. Tell Us the Truth is produced
in Boston in association with iHeartMedia andWBZ News Radio.