December 21, 2023 • 50 mins
Episode 79: Gail Papp
Gail Papp is the wife of Public Theater New York founder Joe Papp, and she's here to Tell Us The Truth about her new book : Public/Private: My Life with Joe Papp at the Public Theater . Gail shares info about
*You can Subscribe to Tell Us The Truth on all leading podcast apps including the iHeart Radio App, Spreaker and iTunes/Apple Podcasts. Join us on Facebook and Twitter for daily discussion about top news.*
Gail Papp is the wife of Public Theater New York founder Joe Papp, and she's here to Tell Us The Truth about her new book : Public/Private: My Life with Joe Papp at the Public Theater . Gail shares info about
- The early Years of the Public Theater
- Addressing social issues through Plays
- Helping to launch the careers of James Earl Jones, Meryl Streep, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington etc.
- Dedication to continuing to go against the grain in order to bring about change
- Much more
*You can Subscribe to Tell Us The Truth on all leading podcast apps including the iHeart Radio App, Spreaker and iTunes/Apple Podcasts. Join us on Facebook and Twitter for daily discussion about top news.*
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
What do names like James Earl Jones, Samuel Jackson, and Denzel Washington have
in common? Well, they allgot their start at the Public Theater in
New York, and Gail Papp ishere to talk about her new memoir,
Public Private, My Life with JoePap at the Public Theater. My name
(00:24):
is E. Duke Bennett and thisis tell Us the Truth. Hello,
I'm Gail Merrifield Pap. I'm theauthor of Public Private, My Life with
Joe Papp at the Public Theater,and I'm here to tell you the truth.
Well, I wrote the book,first of all, to be quite
(00:47):
honest, because I missed Joe Papp, who I've worked with for twenty six
years and was eventually married to.But beyond that, I felt that my
years working with him in the theaterit was an interesting picture of the first
twenty five years of the Public Theaterin New York City and some of the
(01:10):
issues that we dealt with and someof the amazing talent that came through in
that first twenty five years of theorganization, and I wanted to bring it
to life in a certain way thatwasn't dull history or scholastic reporting of any
kind but had some kind of lifeto it in terms of real events and
(01:34):
the people that I knew, andwanted to bring that back to life,
especially because I felt it would beuseful in some way in this day and
age when theaters are very believed withtheir problems, and I thought this might
give people a little bit of hopeand courage to face the challenges they have
(01:57):
across the country now in theater.Well, Gail, it's a pleasure to
have you here on tell us thetruth. This is a real treat for
me, especially considering the fact thatI'm a big fan of the theater.
You know, my family and I, in fact, for many years,
geez, close to at least adecade now, we've been members of the
Huntington Theater here in Boston. Soand actually I have family members who are
(02:23):
performers and performing different things through theyears and what have you. In fact,
shout out to my cousin Kadage Bennett, who is an actor and performer
and can often be seen in localplays here as well in Boston. So
it's a treat to have such abig name like yourself here on the show.
I got to ask before we getinto the book, and everything,
(02:45):
because this is really interesting. Yourlast name that you go by is pap
but a little birdie told me thatthat's actually shorthand for something else. So
what is the full last name?That's right. Joe had to shorten his
name many years ago when he wasworking in television and his Polish last name
(03:09):
was too long for the credits.That name was Paparowski. Paparovski. That
rolls off the tongue so easily foryou there. I love that Paparovski.
He was very attached to that name. In fact, when they laid it
kind of a celebrity path in Brooklynin the gardens there, and it was
a stone path of people's names oneach and every stone, and so they
(03:32):
had Joe papp on his stone.When Joe saw it, he said,
no, this is where I comefrom, Brooklyn, and I want my
original name there. So he paidto have it changed to Joe Paparowski.
You know, I wanted you totell that story, Gail, because it
says a lot about the history ofJoe and you know, where did he
(03:55):
start, where did he come from? And how do these experiences help shape
the work? Right, Because whenwe take a look at all of the
wonderful work that you and Joe havedone in theater, and all of the
wonderful plays that you've supported and helpedget off the ground be seen by the
(04:16):
masses. There is a very seriousdedication to culture and diversity inclusion. And
we can trace that back, atleast in Joe's case, to his roots
as being a Polish person who hasto make it in this world that you
know may not necessarily have been madefor him here in the United States.
(04:41):
But I wonder, from your perspective, where is the spirit of diversity inclusion
celebrating culture? Where does that comefrom? Well, it came from growing
up in New York City in theneighborhood where Joe was also partly my own
background, but I grew up onthe West Coast was somewhat similar, where
(05:01):
there was all kinds of people inthe neighborhood, and Joe used to describe
them called the Mohammedans. Was aJewish population, there was a black population,
and so forth, and they didn'tnecessarily get along with each other as
(05:21):
he was growing up, but itbecame very aware of the different cultures and
languages also as he grew up,and very very responsive to that, and
I think that was the seed ofhis being able to understand cultures and experiences
there weren't his own, necessarily,but he was able to embrace them in
(05:46):
a most remarkable way and encourage thepeople who were writing about them. He
certainly had that capacity. And hisear was very attuned to language because he'd
grown up speaking Yiddish. His parentswere Yiddish speakers, so English was actually
his second language, and he heardother languages in his neighborhoods, such is
(06:09):
Spanish, So he had a veryfine ear for the sounds of the neighborhood,
both in its language, its culture, and the people there. And
that stage wasn't throughout the rest ofhis career. He loved what some people
called gorgeous mosaic of New York City, and he was always responsive to that
(06:32):
and wanted to see it represented inthe theater. Well, certainly that's what
you both were able to accomplish inyour career, and this is all captured
in your latest book here Public Private, My life with Joe Papp at the
Public Theater. In fact, Gail, you folks really helped the who's who
(06:55):
in acting, not just in theater, but even in television and movies.
Here give us some of that,so because it's well documented in the book.
But who were some of the biggernames that you folks were able to
assist in launching their careers. It'sabsolutely amazing. When I first came to
work before the public theater, Iwas working in Central Park or Joe was
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putting on Free Shakespeare, and Iremember James Earl Jones when he was still
very young and doing some roles inShakespeare. Otherwise wouldn't be cast in back
in those days, people of colorwere kind of automatically excluded from any kind
of leading role in Shakespeare. Joegave those leading roles to people of talent
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such as the fabulous James Earl Jonesand also others like Morgan Freeman and ral
Julia who is Puerto Rican and soforth. So he established the only measure
that he applied to casting people andinvolving them in the theater, which was
(08:07):
their talent. All based on talent, regardless of what you looked like or
where you came from. And hebelieved in that, and he really pioneered
much of that movement in the theaterwhere the people that he was associated with
found that they had opportunities that theywouldn't have had otherwise and didn't have back
(08:30):
in those early days elsewhere. SoJames Earl Jones was certainly one of those
people I remember very well from thosedays, and he was just on the
cusp of stardom, not quite thereyet. And there are many other actors
from all kinds of backgrounds who sawthe theater as an opportunity where they thing
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played these roles. I'm talking aboutactors first of all, and later on
when we started the public theater,where writers felt they could write about their
own heritage and their own perspective onit without being minimized or ignored or sidelined
in some way as not being inthe mainstream. Joe gave the major place
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in his thinking and in what heproduced. The interesting thing about Joe was
that he had the soul of anartist himself, and the way he found
to express it was through what heproduced. So his investment was always in
the talent of any person that wasaspiring to be a writer or an actor,
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and that was one of the amazingthings about him. He really had
a passionate investment, not in moneywith respect to the theater. He was
always struggling to raise money to doit free in the parks and so forth.
But his investment was totally in thepeople who made the theater and did
the plays, did the parts,and wrote the scripts. So it was
(10:09):
a personal investment that he had inpeople, and those relationships have a amazing
longevity. There are people that stillremember their early years, many many people,
as Meryl Streep started out very earlyon with Joe, So did Kevin
Kleine, many many people, sodid Morgan Freeman and so forth. I
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remember them all from those days beforethey were famous or went into film,
and Joe gave them opportunities that theywouldn't have had elsewhere. So their feelings
about him at the time added memorynow are very strong and wonderfully committed to
what he represented was which I think, if to talk about the idea of
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the theater, the idea of thistheater was very strong, just the way
the constitution. The idea of theConstitution is really very strong, no matter
how fully it may be in itsapplication. But the power of an idea
is really fascinating to me. AndI became more and more involved with that
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approach to my own book as Icontinued to work on it. Well,
I'm glad you brought up the constitutionbecause it's clear that social change is something
that both you and Joe are veryserious about. And again it's reflected in
what you chose to put on,you know, the different plays and what
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have you, what you chose tofocus on, who you chose to help.
Talk to me about that, Talkto me about social change and its
impact on the work. Well,you know it wasn't y. You know,
it wasn't a sober, humorless affair. Jerry was a lot of fun
to be around, and he feltthat if there was something that had an
(12:03):
important aspect to portray in a theater, the theater was at his very best
if it was all so popular.He believed in the strength of popularity,
but he didn't pander to it.But he often said, we are our
best when we have something to sayand it's all so popular popular. So
(12:28):
he became an advocate for many peoplein the theater who had different backgrounds.
Playwright David Henry Huong was one ofthem, with his Chinese heritage and so
forth. So he was a personwas very approachable despite some of the representations
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of him in the media as beingforbidding, an arab arrogant in all those
words constantly used about him back then. But he was very approachable and he
had a keen understanding that he wantedto have and acquired if he wasn't familiar
(13:15):
with other people's experiences, intensely andinterested in what they had to say about
it. So people felt that actors'playwrights, everybody involved in the aspect of
theater at our theater felt that hewas totally invested in their talent and what
(13:35):
they had to say and what theydid and how they did it. It
was really quite amazing because it wasvery personal. It wasn't theoretical. It
was intensely personal and involved his commitmentin a way that people didn't necessarily encounter
elsewhere in the producing area. Sothat was a very special gift that he
(13:58):
had. He had it anyway.He was a very charismatic person. He
was also a lot of fun tobe around. He wasn't doing anyway whatsoever,
and he was totally committed to whathe did, which was not the
case everywhere, and he fought orwhat he believed in when it was problematic
(14:22):
in the city or elsewhere. Hewent through many struggles to keep the theater
going, but he did finally establishsomething that I called it was in the
DNA I think of the organization,which is unusual. I know other people
plays in theaters and so forth havea mission, and a mission is one
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thing, but Joe had something waybeyond what we call a mission a mission
statement as it's known today. Hehad this passionate connection that was very personal
that came out of his own background. It was very fundamental and organic,
and it became really embedded in theDNA of the theater. I think because
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it still felt today, even inour very problematic times with everything that's going
on in the theater, which hasbeen tremendous change and so forth, people
do still pick up on the factthat there's this heritage the theater that's not
boring and remote, but it's sortof active and that they can relate to
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and that they can redefine also intheir own way. So that's very special.
Everybody feels that, and I certainlyhave seen it, and I'm amazed
just how that happened, but itdid happen. It's a great wait our
reading the book and learning so muchmore about you and Joe and your philosophy
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and the things that you've accomplished throughthe years. It really you know,
something that struck me was the factthat there's such a fearlessness in identifying major
social issues that quite frankly, werenot speaking about enough, and using theater
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in order to open up some ofthese conversations about some pretty controversial subjects,
especially depending on what time period welook at. You know, a great
example is The Normal Heart by LarryKramer, which very controversial at the time.
It was it absolutely was not embracedby the critics and you know,
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the public discourse at the time.People really pushed back against this. He
had a tremendous problem. Before heapplied at the public theaters ask us to
read it, he had been rejectedall over the place. Because Larry's way
of working, as I got toknow him, was to just pour everything
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out. He used to say,garbage out, garbage out. The first
few drafts, garbage out, garbageout. That's the way he worked.
He didn't censor himself. But hewas a very fine writer who knew his
craft extremely well, and so oncehe got past the garbage out phase,
which was often a huge unproducible script, in its length and its confusion,
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which was the way the normal Heartfirst looked when he brought it into us.
He then knew how to refine itand craft a producible and very powerful
play from everything that he poured out. It was fascinating to see that to
me because he was passionate about gettingthe word out, so he was very
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impatient for me to get the scriptto Joe. Almost three hundred pages.
That's a sort of unproducible length fora standard kind of play length. So
I knew I couldn't get Joe toread something that long that was that much
of a mess, because it wasstill in the garbage out phase of Larry's
(18:11):
process. So it took a littlewhile, and I developed an interesting relationship
with Larry before he developed his ownrelationship with Joe. And it was quite
remarkable because Larry had this reputation ofbeing a firebrand. He was so agitated
about the ignoring of the AIDS epidemicin nineteen eighty five that he was just
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on a rampage. He was likea biblical profit orating and writing about it.
He was so infuriated by the factthat no government, it's not state,
city or federal was paying any attentionand so forth. So he was
very agitated to get it to Joe, and I was kind of both the
gatekeeper and the whatever you want tocall it, the obstacle for a while,
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because I couldn't get Joe to reada three hundred page manuscript. There
was that messy. I just knewthat he would just put it aside.
So it took a little while.But when we finally got a version that
Larry was satisfied with and I couldsee the outline of the play, finally
I got it to Joe, andJoe immediately wanted to produce it. Then
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it had this long, rocky kindof existence because the New York Times,
which this is one newspaper town inNew York City as far as the theater
is concerned, and theaters are remarkablydependent on the reviews to get their audiences
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in in those days, so thethen reviewer, I mean nameless to my
account, we had a problem withthe play, and the New York Times
remarkably published a editorial box kind ofblack framed box, right next to the
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review of the play, saying thatthings that Larry had said about the New
York Times and his play were correctat the times it done this and that,
Well, that's not true. Wefact checked everything that Larry said in
the play, and we had ourlawyers check it out. Everything he said
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was absolutely true. But we gotthis review that was lukewarm, and the
editorial box next to this reviewer's reviewthat disclaimed this and that. So unfortunately,
the play did not move to Broadwayat that time. So fast forward
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the kind of here as it isto the two thousands. From nineteen eighty
five, the play was revived ina Broadway production. It was co directed
by Joel Gray and George C.Wolf, and it lasted won the Tony
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Award for Best Revival of a playthat had very long been owed instead of
won way back in the nineteen eighties. But I felt, this is great.
The play had lon around the worldor six hundred productions of many languages
in the intervening years, so thatwas a wonderful thing. And I remember
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Larry at the opening of that revival. It was really kind of like a
beautiful justification of all of our feelingsabout the play and our belief in at
the time when it was so urgent. Well, i'll tell you you,
folks, took a chance on thatplay in nineteen eighty five. Yeah,
(22:00):
and if I'm not mistaken, therevival didn't happen until twenty eleven. Yeah,
right, many years later, manyyears later, but they were acknowledged,
thank goodness. They won the TonyAward. In fact, you and
Joe won a Humanitarian Arts Campaign Awardfor your contribution, right right, Yes,
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Well, I was very dedicated tothe play, and I was determined
to help Larry realize it in thebest way possible that he could so it
could get on. And I feltpassionate about it, and I was so
proud of it when it did geton. And it was a mixed experience
when it opened because of the negativeview and the black editorial books in the
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paper. But you know, Joetold the cast, somewhat down cast at
the opening that he thought it wasan important play and that he was going
to run it as long as hepossibly could at the Public Theater. And
it actually became the longest running playever at the Public Theater. The audiences
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that turned out for it were endless. They came all the time. I
had a passionate following, and itran for a very long time. Meanwhile,
it went all over the world inmany, many languages, so it
had a tremendous impact, and Ifelt very good about that he a production
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in Poland, in Polish that weall went to see, and so in
many languages at the time that Delarryhad written it when this scourge was going
around the world, so we feltthat it served a excellent purpose in bringing
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the human side of this crisis topeople so they could understand it better and
how it affected so many people.I mean, once again, fearlessness and
doing what's right and bringing major socialissues into the forefront of public discourse.
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That's what you and Joe and thepublic theater are known for. That's your
legacy. I mean, goodness,gracious, you know you talk about the
AIDS epidemic at least the beginning ofit, as we do. In nineteen
eighty five, Who was talking aboutthat and who was shedding light on that,
and who was brave enough to seriouslyexamine that? Yeah, exactly.
(24:40):
You know, years before Magic Johnsonpublicly came up talking about HIV, right
almost six seven years later, Soyeah, right, this was really at
a critical moment when even the Presidentof the United States was not given such
a positive you. No, henever mentioned this. It was a national
crisis, and he never mentioned it, even though President Ronald Reagan's best friend
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Rock Hudson had aids, right,that's right. Yeah, despite that tremendous
a feeling of taboo that existed thenit was nuts, it was crazy when
it was awful, and I justfound it so appalling it and I was
very proud that Larry was going ona rampage about it, because that's what
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it took, and that's what itdeserved to try to get beyond that and
to get some kind of help tothe people that needed medical help. So
he did that. You know.For folks listening, this is why Public
Private My life with Joe Papp atthe Public Theater. This is why that
book is something that I highly recommend, because it is a very interesting glimpse
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into not only many of the celebratedartists and actors that we now revere just
to read about their beginnings, theirhumble beginnings, especially at the public theater,
but also the social issues of thetimes. You know, for those
of us who were alive to seeand remember what society was to kind of
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see a lot of those same issuesthat affected us ten, fifteen, twenty
thirty, forty plus years ago almostcome full circle, and very similar issues
affect society today. It's fascinating.It's fascinating to read the history, and
it's also fascinating to learn about someof the figures who have been doing all
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that they can to again keep thisin the public discourse and help us understand
frame conversations, etc. Right Gil, Absolutely, I see a lot of
the history reflected in what we're goingthrough now. Although it's different, but
some of the things are very similarto what Joe and I went through back
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then. And I thought that theway Joe handled different controversial issues in the
theater was possibly useful to younger peoplenow who don't remember those times, but
would help them formulate their own wayof handling certain crises that are confronting them
(27:26):
today. And I hope that mightbe possible. It's not that it's a
roadmap to handling anything, but Ithink it's an example primarily of what one
person or two or three people cando to change the terms of a discussion
and change the terms of action.And I believe in that very very much.
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Although in this day and eight itmay seem like a dream but I
do believe in that it's a remarkablewhat the actions of one or two people
can do to try to remedy someof the things that are wrong that are
going on, and to give somekind of encouragement to others who are struggling
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with them. I believe in thatvery deeply, even in the face of
appalling opposition and very bad circumstances fordialogue of any kind in certain respects.
But nevertheless, I believe in thepower of a single person to take responsibility
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for themselves and what they do inour society. And I hope that that
message or example or whatever you wantto call it gets across to especially younger
people. I'd be thrilled that itwould be possible. And if it happened,
well said, well said. Imean, listen, we're talking fifty
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for Tony Awards, one hundred andfifty two Obie Awards, forty two Drama
Desk Awards, five Politzer Prizes,we have fifty five public theater publications have
moved on to Broadway. Everything frombringing the Noise, bringing the funk their
to even Hamilton. Folks were forthe first to put out Hamilton. Yeah,
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and this is why again, Ibelieve that folks listening this is a
great book for yourselves, stalking stuffers, for loved ones, grab yourself a
copy. You know, with allof the social changes that we have and
like I said, a lot ofthings coming back full circle, it's very
interesting to hear from folks who havedealt with some of these issues and have
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found creative ways to help affect change. Not everyone is going to be an
elected official, not everyone is goingto be a protester, not you know,
there are different ways though that youcan help others. And certainly when
it comes to you know, Galeand the public theater, Joe, they've
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helped a lot of people, andthey've touched a lot of lives, not
just the performers, not just theother folks who work behind the scenes,
but also in the audience. They'veaffected change, they've helped the discourse,
and that's just it's it's wonderful.Yeah. What's the best way that folks
can grab a copy of the book? Well, you can order it online
Bookshop or Barnes and Noble or Amazon. The three versions of it is the
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hardcover and there's a Kendall or abook and there's also an audible version that's
wonderfully narrated by the actors Catherine Grody, so that that could be ordered online.
I love that. I love that, and listen. I got to
ask you before you go here,because you know, in addition to being
a theater fan and a fan ofsocial responsibility, and that's really what tell
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us the truth is about shining alight on all of these various issues and
telling people that it's possible to standup for change, for sure. But
I'm also a foodie. And you, Gail being a lady, who I
know your parents are from the EastCoast, but you grew up in the
on the West Coast for a periodof time, right, yes, I
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grew I grew up in Berkeley,California. So you are wow all the
way in Berkeley where everything was happeningduring that time period too, goodness gracious.
So I got to ask, whenyou finally, you know, set
your roots in New York with Joehere, was there anything in particular in
New York from a from a foodstandpoint that you couldn't get on the West
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Coast or that really shocked you,like, wow, what is this here?
You know, was there any particulardish or guilty craving that you had
in New York. Okay, Will, that's interesting, I don't. I
think maybe I missed some of theWest Coast Tamali's and so forth. We
used to have those a lot inthe area. I was born there and
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my mother was actually California also,and I grew up in schools amongst a
lot of Hispanic kids, so Ihad a taste for some of those dishes
that they liked, and it sortof continued when I came to the East
Coast. But it wasn't necessarily availablein the early days, but it is
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now. I think there's a greatvariety of food in the city that you
can find and enjoy without any problem. So that's great. More wise,
spread taste in the availability of differentfoods. I love the fact that you
took my question and you flipped it. So it wasn't that New York and
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knocked your socks off. It wasthe other way around, seeing what you
had back home, right in theauthentic Mexican food. Yeah, yeah,
California, absolutely, Yeah, thatwas part of my upbringing. Absolutely.
I went to schools where most ofthe population kids were or Mexican, and
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also a very large representation of AsianAmerican kids too. So although New York
is certainly the hub of the gorgeousmosaic of population, there was some of
that in the Bay Area where Igrew up too, of a different kind,
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but it was there, and Icertainly was sensitive to it, and
I had friends that came from thosedifferent populations. I love that, And
I asked that question because you know, whether we're talking music or the arts,
especially theater, food, you know, these are things that bring us
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together culturally, and I believe canhelp break down barriers and bring us all
to a point where we can findways to work together and get along with
each other. Absolutely. Absolutely.My daughter in law here, she's a
very fine shift. She grew upshe's the daughter of a restauranteur in New
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Jersey, so she knows how tocook very very well. She's always cooking
up things. And her backgrounds Italian, so we have a lot of Italian
food at home here and I justlove it. But I love that.
OK, It's just great. Ihave someone dedicated to the kind of food
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that they grew up with, whichshe certainly is. Well. There you
have it, folks, that allthroughout her life, Gail Pap has continued
to immerse herself in culture. Gail, thank you. You know, I
appreciate you, I appreciate Joe,God rest his soul. Thank you for
telling us truth. Oh, thankyou, thankus so much for having me.
(35:07):
It's been a real pleasure talking toyou. Awesome conversation there with Gail
Pap And definitely, folks, youknow, Public Private My Life with Joe
Papp at the Public Theater, Grabyourself a copy. And that's a newer
book, you know, it justcame out within the past a couple of
weeks here, so definitely grab yourselfa copy of that. I'll tell you
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one of the things that I wasreminded of when having this conversation with Gail
and and even reading the book.You can affect change in more than one
way, and you can affect changein your own way. Everybody doesn't have
to do it the same way,right, We all don't have to do
the same thing. So again wereiterate, not everybody is a protester on
(35:55):
the front lines, not everybody isgoing to work in the halls of government.
Not everybody is going to be themost clever social media poster, and
all this other stuff here that wesee. I think sometimes it's people feel
like it's a competition, and ifyou don't post something on social media,
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then that means that you're not somehowcontributing positively to issues, and it's a
loadablogny. In fact, it's performativemore often than it should be with some
of these social media posts and thingslike that. Right, it's performative.
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You don't have to put on ashow for everybody else in order to positively
affect change. No, that's silly. You find your way, you know,
it's something as simple as having aconversation with someone who may have been
less informed, misinformed to who arecontributing to the problem, and you help
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educate them, and then you know, you help sway hearts, sway minds.
That's affecting change. Certainly with thepublic theater, they're doing that on
a much larger scale because they haveaudience members who are able to come out
and watch these plays and it causesthem to think. And we all have
had that experience, you know,you watch a play, a movie,
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a TV show and it caused youto think, causes you to talk to
your loved ones and people in yourcircle strangers about what you saw. I
do that every single day, andI'm sure you all do as well.
So affecting change for so many yearson such a scale, it's just it's
(37:50):
incredible, incredible, And again,Gail, Joe Papp, nothing but respect
and admiration for you folks that book. Definitely check it out. Public Private,
My Life with Joe Papp at thePublic Theater. Check it out.
It's one of my favorites of theyear, no doubt, you know,
it's it brings up another serious issueand I touched upon a little bit last
(38:16):
episode, and I'm going to keeptalking about it, this whole conflict that
we have between Israel and Palestine,and just it's such a hot button,
polarizing, third rail subject that everyoneis afraid to talk about unless they're talking
(38:37):
about it a certain way, right, And it makes me ask the question
again, as I keep asking,tell us the truth, is it anti
Semitic to criticize the Israeli government orto take issue with something that they're doing.
(38:59):
I've asked that question for years onthis show. I don't get straight
answers. The answers that I getare always apprehensive answers. I've even gotten
I don't know which is honest,all right, But especially in the United
(39:19):
States of America, especially in anynation where freedom of speech, freedom of
religion, freedom of free thought exists, Why the heck can we not take
a look at the actions of electedofficials or monarchs or whatever and say,
(39:40):
hey, I agree with that,or hey I don't agree with that.
This doesn't need to be a flavorof the month or flavor of the century.
Situation issues from one to the other, change right. Born and raised,
United States of America country. It'smy home. There are things that
(40:02):
happen every single day that I bothagree and disagree with that my government does,
plain and simple, from issue toissue. You could take a look
at your local town board or citycouncil, or your your House of representatives
locally, or you can go nationallook at what your president is doing Congress.
(40:25):
From issue to issue, I agreeor I disagree, and you know,
other people agree or disagree with me. Agree and to disagree, and
that's that's okay. That's part ofthe discourse, and that's part of the
challenge of learning from one another anddriving the discussion on things. That's also
(40:46):
a way of affecting change right.The more we discuss issues. The more
educated we and others get because ofsharing ideas and we're arguing our positions on
things, and we're enlightening one another, and we can take that to the
powers that be and drive them tomove in a direction that we feel is
(41:08):
best for us as a society.Right. So it's it's it's shocking,
quite frankly, when you get shouteddown or threatened when you have the audacity
to question this war that's happening betweenPalestine and Israel. And most importantly,
(41:35):
when you disagree with some of thethings that the Israeli government is doing.
How could that possibly be anti Semitic? To criticize a government? That is
just impossible to me. It's impossible, does it does? It defies logic,
(41:55):
It defies everything that our nation isbuilt on. It defies every thing
that we're supposed to stand for.Doesn't make sense. And again, even
even with Israel and net and Yahooand what have you, from issue to
issue, I either agree or Idisagree. I don't agree with anyone killing
innocent civilians. I just I don'tagree with that. I don't care what
(42:20):
country you are, I don't agreewith my own country doing it. And
certainly we've done it. Right,So if I don't agree with my own
country doing it, why wul Iagree with you doing it? Why wouldn't
I say something about that? Andwe know that Hamas is not innocent or
warm and fuzzy or anything of thatnature, and certainly let's call that out.
(42:42):
There's a reason why they're identified asa terrorist organization, certainly, but
that doesn't mean that we can't alsopoint out the atrocities that are happening,
that are being committed by the Israeligovernment. I don't understand why you would
be painted into a corner and labeled. And you're the worst thing in the
(43:04):
world for saying that out loud.You're a third rail for saying that out
loud. They're threatening people's livelihood andjobs just for saying something like that.
Right, that doesn't even make sense. So we got to continue to do
our part and drive this conversation,regardless of how you feel on the issue
(43:30):
or what side you're picking, becausehere we go this whole US versus them
mentality. My side is always theinnocent people's side. I don't believe anyone
should be involved in a war thatdoesn't even want to be involved in a
war, you know what I mean. That might sound naive, but that's
just the truth of it, becauseI wouldn't want that to be me or
someone that I care about, SoI wouldn't want that to happen to you
(43:52):
stranger, Right, But we gotto drive this conversation and this notion,
and in my opinion, we needto call it out. Don't tell me
that I can't criticize anybody else's government. You're out of your mind. That's
ridiculous, and that goes against everythingthat we're supposed to stand for as Americans.
(44:14):
And it doesn't matter who you support, doesn't matter what side you're on,
it doesn't matter all that other stuff. At the end of the day,
no government is above scrutiny, evenwhen you agree. They're elected officials
that I have literally work side byside with and I openly disagree in question
(44:37):
and challenge and fact check because thatis the American way, that's what we're
supposed to do. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely So you can't just give it
everybody you know, the keys andsay, hey, do whatever the hell
you want. And you know,if you do something that could be interpreted
(44:59):
as question, it's all right.Because it's you, you know, anybody
else, we're gonna we're gonna comedown hard on them. But you,
yeah, you do whatever you want. NA doesn't work like that, doesn't
work like that. I don't thinkso. I think that it's it's imperative
that we trust but verify. Sincewe talked about Ronald Reagan earlier, we
(45:21):
trust but verify, Right, areyou doing enough to ensure that you're not
taking the lives of innocent people?It's as simple as that. Anthony Maroon
a close friend of mine, youknow, former military, he's a lawyer,
shout out to ants. He wason the show, one of our
(45:43):
highest rated shows ever and still ashow that was a two parter, still
something that people go back and listento. And Anthony said, war is
a racket. And this is aguy who participated in war. He was
at in every single in this nationduring the quote unquote War on Terror.
(46:06):
All right, so you're speaking fromexperience, and this is a person who
born and raised here. You know, he has roots in Lebanon as well,
so his family's originally from incredible perspectiveon things. And I've even gone
back and listened to our conversation ontell us the truth our two part of
there, and it just it's fascinatingwhen you put it in the context of
(46:28):
what we're seeing here with this thingwith Israel and Palestine the latest chapter and
that's saga, which is biblical.It's amazing because who benefits from this conflict?
Why can't we have two states?Why can't folks coexist? Why can't
(46:50):
we have a situation where we're notkilling in us, in people? Why
is the United States so apprehensive aboutdoing the right thing and and doing all
that we can to protecting us andpeople, because you know, there's a
lot of double speak going on.Yeah, they have a right to do
whatever they want to do, butyeah, but you know you got to
protect in this and people. Butyeah, we're not going to tell them
(47:13):
to cease fire. Wonder what thehell's going on here? Who's on first?
And more importantly, whoever your electedofficials are, what are they saying?
And are you someone who will holdthem accountable for how they're conducting themselves
(47:34):
in this situation? It's a fairquestion. It's a fair question to ask,
you know, but this is tellus the truth, and I'm not
going to bite my tongue and I'mnot going to play games. I'm certainly
not going to go out of myway and disrespect anybody. We all know,
if you've been listening to this show, you go back in you archives.
(47:54):
If you know anything about me,I am a person that loves culture.
I love people who love diversity.I want to learn from everybody.
Something learned from everybody, and Iwant to tap into that. And that's
why the conversations that we have onthis show and where we go with the
(48:15):
guests. It's different, right,This is a different beat here, Right,
it's a song you never heard before. It's different. But there's a
reason for that, and the foundationof that reason is respect and curiosity and
interest truth. So I'm not goingto shy away from this stuff. It's
(48:37):
not going to happen. I'm goingto be respectful, but I'm also going
to push the issue. I'm goingto challenge right, And I've put out
some invitations to some very big nameguests who are Palestinian, who are literally
from Israel, not just Jewish,but from Israel, people who are well
(48:59):
versed on what's going on on.We have some folks in our own government
who are going to be guests infuture episodes as well talking about this issue
foreign policy experts. We are goingto dig into this and we're going to
have a very adult series of conversations. And I'm encouraging everybody who's listening right
(49:22):
now. You definitely don't want tomiss what's coming up, and you want
to get everybody gathered around, andmost importantly, let's take this discussion online
and let's continue to have it.That's the way that I want to affect
change. So that's the way I'mgoing to do it. What's the point
of having a platform and having ashow if you're not going to talk about
the things that are going on thataffect us all one way or another.
(49:45):
Right, tell us the truth.So we're going to do it. And
if you or someone close to youis well versed in the issue, then
I want to hear from you.Tell us the Truth book on Twitter,
tell us the Truth dot Duke atgmail dot com. Let me know what
(50:07):
you think. Maybe you are futureguests for the show, but we're gonna
go there. We're absolutely gonna gothere. That's the point. Till next
time, becond to yourselves and bekind to others. This is e Duke
Bennett and you've been listening to tellUs the Truth. Tell Us the Truth
(50:29):
is produced in Boston in association withiHeartMedia and WBZ News Radio
What do names like James Earl Jones, Samuel Jackson, and Denzel Washington have
in common? Well, they allgot their start at the Public Theater in
New York, and Gail Papp ishere to talk about her new memoir,
Public Private, My Life with JoePap at the Public Theater. My name
(00:24):
is E. Duke Bennett and thisis tell Us the Truth. Hello,
I'm Gail Merrifield Pap. I'm theauthor of Public Private, My Life with
Joe Papp at the Public Theater,and I'm here to tell you the truth.
Well, I wrote the book,first of all, to be quite
(00:47):
honest, because I missed Joe Papp, who I've worked with for twenty six
years and was eventually married to.But beyond that, I felt that my
years working with him in the theaterit was an interesting picture of the first
twenty five years of the Public Theaterin New York City and some of the
(01:10):
issues that we dealt with and someof the amazing talent that came through in
that first twenty five years of theorganization, and I wanted to bring it
to life in a certain way thatwasn't dull history or scholastic reporting of any
kind but had some kind of lifeto it in terms of real events and
(01:34):
the people that I knew, andwanted to bring that back to life,
especially because I felt it would beuseful in some way in this day and
age when theaters are very believed withtheir problems, and I thought this might
give people a little bit of hopeand courage to face the challenges they have
(01:57):
across the country now in theater.Well, Gail, it's a pleasure to
have you here on tell us thetruth. This is a real treat for
me, especially considering the fact thatI'm a big fan of the theater.
You know, my family and I, in fact, for many years,
geez, close to at least adecade now, we've been members of the
Huntington Theater here in Boston. Soand actually I have family members who are
(02:23):
performers and performing different things through theyears and what have you. In fact,
shout out to my cousin Kadage Bennett, who is an actor and performer
and can often be seen in localplays here as well in Boston. So
it's a treat to have such abig name like yourself here on the show.
I got to ask before we getinto the book, and everything,
(02:45):
because this is really interesting. Yourlast name that you go by is pap
but a little birdie told me thatthat's actually shorthand for something else. So
what is the full last name?That's right. Joe had to shorten his
name many years ago when he wasworking in television and his Polish last name
(03:09):
was too long for the credits.That name was Paparowski. Paparovski. That
rolls off the tongue so easily foryou there. I love that Paparovski.
He was very attached to that name. In fact, when they laid it
kind of a celebrity path in Brooklynin the gardens there, and it was
a stone path of people's names oneach and every stone, and so they
(03:32):
had Joe papp on his stone.When Joe saw it, he said,
no, this is where I comefrom, Brooklyn, and I want my
original name there. So he paidto have it changed to Joe Paparowski.
You know, I wanted you totell that story, Gail, because it
says a lot about the history ofJoe and you know, where did he
(03:55):
start, where did he come from? And how do these experiences help shape
the work? Right, Because whenwe take a look at all of the
wonderful work that you and Joe havedone in theater, and all of the
wonderful plays that you've supported and helpedget off the ground be seen by the
(04:16):
masses. There is a very seriousdedication to culture and diversity inclusion. And
we can trace that back, atleast in Joe's case, to his roots
as being a Polish person who hasto make it in this world that you
know may not necessarily have been madefor him here in the United States.
(04:41):
But I wonder, from your perspective, where is the spirit of diversity inclusion
celebrating culture? Where does that comefrom? Well, it came from growing
up in New York City in theneighborhood where Joe was also partly my own
background, but I grew up onthe West Coast was somewhat similar, where
(05:01):
there was all kinds of people inthe neighborhood, and Joe used to describe
them called the Mohammedans. Was aJewish population, there was a black population,
and so forth, and they didn'tnecessarily get along with each other as
(05:21):
he was growing up, but itbecame very aware of the different cultures and
languages also as he grew up,and very very responsive to that, and
I think that was the seed ofhis being able to understand cultures and experiences
there weren't his own, necessarily,but he was able to embrace them in
(05:46):
a most remarkable way and encourage thepeople who were writing about them. He
certainly had that capacity. And hisear was very attuned to language because he'd
grown up speaking Yiddish. His parentswere Yiddish speakers, so English was actually
his second language, and he heardother languages in his neighborhoods, such is
(06:09):
Spanish, So he had a veryfine ear for the sounds of the neighborhood,
both in its language, its culture, and the people there. And
that stage wasn't throughout the rest ofhis career. He loved what some people
called gorgeous mosaic of New York City, and he was always responsive to that
(06:32):
and wanted to see it represented inthe theater. Well, certainly that's what
you both were able to accomplish inyour career, and this is all captured
in your latest book here Public Private, My life with Joe Papp at the
Public Theater. In fact, Gail, you folks really helped the who's who
(06:55):
in acting, not just in theater, but even in television and movies.
Here give us some of that,so because it's well documented in the book.
But who were some of the biggernames that you folks were able to
assist in launching their careers. It'sabsolutely amazing. When I first came to
work before the public theater, Iwas working in Central Park or Joe was
(07:18):
putting on Free Shakespeare, and Iremember James Earl Jones when he was still
very young and doing some roles inShakespeare. Otherwise wouldn't be cast in back
in those days, people of colorwere kind of automatically excluded from any kind
of leading role in Shakespeare. Joegave those leading roles to people of talent
(07:42):
such as the fabulous James Earl Jonesand also others like Morgan Freeman and ral
Julia who is Puerto Rican and soforth. So he established the only measure
that he applied to casting people andinvolving them in the theater, which was
(08:07):
their talent. All based on talent, regardless of what you looked like or
where you came from. And hebelieved in that, and he really pioneered
much of that movement in the theaterwhere the people that he was associated with
found that they had opportunities that theywouldn't have had otherwise and didn't have back
(08:30):
in those early days elsewhere. SoJames Earl Jones was certainly one of those
people I remember very well from thosedays, and he was just on the
cusp of stardom, not quite thereyet. And there are many other actors
from all kinds of backgrounds who sawthe theater as an opportunity where they thing
(08:56):
played these roles. I'm talking aboutactors first of all, and later on
when we started the public theater,where writers felt they could write about their
own heritage and their own perspective onit without being minimized or ignored or sidelined
in some way as not being inthe mainstream. Joe gave the major place
(09:20):
in his thinking and in what heproduced. The interesting thing about Joe was
that he had the soul of anartist himself, and the way he found
to express it was through what heproduced. So his investment was always in
the talent of any person that wasaspiring to be a writer or an actor,
(09:43):
and that was one of the amazingthings about him. He really had
a passionate investment, not in moneywith respect to the theater. He was
always struggling to raise money to doit free in the parks and so forth.
But his investment was totally in thepeople who made the theater and did
the plays, did the parts,and wrote the scripts. So it was
(10:09):
a personal investment that he had inpeople, and those relationships have a amazing
longevity. There are people that stillremember their early years, many many people,
as Meryl Streep started out very earlyon with Joe, So did Kevin
Kleine, many many people, sodid Morgan Freeman and so forth. I
(10:33):
remember them all from those days beforethey were famous or went into film,
and Joe gave them opportunities that theywouldn't have had elsewhere. So their feelings
about him at the time added memorynow are very strong and wonderfully committed to
what he represented was which I think, if to talk about the idea of
(10:58):
the theater, the idea of thistheater was very strong, just the way
the constitution. The idea of theConstitution is really very strong, no matter
how fully it may be in itsapplication. But the power of an idea
is really fascinating to me. AndI became more and more involved with that
(11:20):
approach to my own book as Icontinued to work on it. Well,
I'm glad you brought up the constitutionbecause it's clear that social change is something
that both you and Joe are veryserious about. And again it's reflected in
what you chose to put on,you know, the different plays and what
(11:41):
have you, what you chose tofocus on, who you chose to help.
Talk to me about that, Talkto me about social change and its
impact on the work. Well,you know it wasn't y. You know,
it wasn't a sober, humorless affair. Jerry was a lot of fun
to be around, and he feltthat if there was something that had an
(12:03):
important aspect to portray in a theater, the theater was at his very best
if it was all so popular.He believed in the strength of popularity,
but he didn't pander to it.But he often said, we are our
best when we have something to sayand it's all so popular popular. So
(12:28):
he became an advocate for many peoplein the theater who had different backgrounds.
Playwright David Henry Huong was one ofthem, with his Chinese heritage and so
forth. So he was a personwas very approachable despite some of the representations
(12:54):
of him in the media as beingforbidding, an arab arrogant in all those
words constantly used about him back then. But he was very approachable and he
had a keen understanding that he wantedto have and acquired if he wasn't familiar
(13:15):
with other people's experiences, intensely andinterested in what they had to say about
it. So people felt that actors'playwrights, everybody involved in the aspect of
theater at our theater felt that hewas totally invested in their talent and what
(13:35):
they had to say and what theydid and how they did it. It
was really quite amazing because it wasvery personal. It wasn't theoretical. It
was intensely personal and involved his commitmentin a way that people didn't necessarily encounter
elsewhere in the producing area. Sothat was a very special gift that he
(13:58):
had. He had it anyway.He was a very charismatic person. He
was also a lot of fun tobe around. He wasn't doing anyway whatsoever,
and he was totally committed to whathe did, which was not the
case everywhere, and he fought orwhat he believed in when it was problematic
(14:22):
in the city or elsewhere. Hewent through many struggles to keep the theater
going, but he did finally establishsomething that I called it was in the
DNA I think of the organization,which is unusual. I know other people
plays in theaters and so forth havea mission, and a mission is one
(14:48):
thing, but Joe had something waybeyond what we call a mission a mission
statement as it's known today. Hehad this passionate connection that was very personal
that came out of his own background. It was very fundamental and organic,
and it became really embedded in theDNA of the theater. I think because
(15:09):
it still felt today, even inour very problematic times with everything that's going
on in the theater, which hasbeen tremendous change and so forth, people
do still pick up on the factthat there's this heritage the theater that's not
boring and remote, but it's sortof active and that they can relate to
(15:31):
and that they can redefine also intheir own way. So that's very special.
Everybody feels that, and I certainlyhave seen it, and I'm amazed
just how that happened, but itdid happen. It's a great wait our
reading the book and learning so muchmore about you and Joe and your philosophy
(15:52):
and the things that you've accomplished throughthe years. It really you know,
something that struck me was the factthat there's such a fearlessness in identifying major
social issues that quite frankly, werenot speaking about enough, and using theater
(16:15):
in order to open up some ofthese conversations about some pretty controversial subjects,
especially depending on what time period welook at. You know, a great
example is The Normal Heart by LarryKramer, which very controversial at the time.
It was it absolutely was not embracedby the critics and you know,
(16:37):
the public discourse at the time.People really pushed back against this. He
had a tremendous problem. Before heapplied at the public theaters ask us to
read it, he had been rejectedall over the place. Because Larry's way
of working, as I got toknow him, was to just pour everything
(16:59):
out. He used to say,garbage out, garbage out. The first
few drafts, garbage out, garbageout. That's the way he worked.
He didn't censor himself. But hewas a very fine writer who knew his
craft extremely well, and so oncehe got past the garbage out phase,
which was often a huge unproducible script, in its length and its confusion,
(17:23):
which was the way the normal Heartfirst looked when he brought it into us.
He then knew how to refine itand craft a producible and very powerful
play from everything that he poured out. It was fascinating to see that to
me because he was passionate about gettingthe word out, so he was very
(17:49):
impatient for me to get the scriptto Joe. Almost three hundred pages.
That's a sort of unproducible length fora standard kind of play length. So
I knew I couldn't get Joe toread something that long that was that much
of a mess, because it wasstill in the garbage out phase of Larry's
(18:11):
process. So it took a littlewhile, and I developed an interesting relationship
with Larry before he developed his ownrelationship with Joe. And it was quite
remarkable because Larry had this reputation ofbeing a firebrand. He was so agitated
about the ignoring of the AIDS epidemicin nineteen eighty five that he was just
(18:37):
on a rampage. He was likea biblical profit orating and writing about it.
He was so infuriated by the factthat no government, it's not state,
city or federal was paying any attentionand so forth. So he was
very agitated to get it to Joe, and I was kind of both the
gatekeeper and the whatever you want tocall it, the obstacle for a while,
(19:03):
because I couldn't get Joe to reada three hundred page manuscript. There
was that messy. I just knewthat he would just put it aside.
So it took a little while.But when we finally got a version that
Larry was satisfied with and I couldsee the outline of the play, finally
I got it to Joe, andJoe immediately wanted to produce it. Then
(19:27):
it had this long, rocky kindof existence because the New York Times,
which this is one newspaper town inNew York City as far as the theater
is concerned, and theaters are remarkablydependent on the reviews to get their audiences
(19:48):
in in those days, so thethen reviewer, I mean nameless to my
account, we had a problem withthe play, and the New York Times
remarkably published a editorial box kind ofblack framed box, right next to the
(20:11):
review of the play, saying thatthings that Larry had said about the New
York Times and his play were correctat the times it done this and that,
Well, that's not true. Wefact checked everything that Larry said in
the play, and we had ourlawyers check it out. Everything he said
(20:32):
was absolutely true. But we gotthis review that was lukewarm, and the
editorial box next to this reviewer's reviewthat disclaimed this and that. So unfortunately,
the play did not move to Broadwayat that time. So fast forward
(20:53):
the kind of here as it isto the two thousands. From nineteen eighty
five, the play was revived ina Broadway production. It was co directed
by Joel Gray and George C.Wolf, and it lasted won the Tony
(21:14):
Award for Best Revival of a playthat had very long been owed instead of
won way back in the nineteen eighties. But I felt, this is great.
The play had lon around the worldor six hundred productions of many languages
in the intervening years, so thatwas a wonderful thing. And I remember
(21:37):
Larry at the opening of that revival. It was really kind of like a
beautiful justification of all of our feelingsabout the play and our belief in at
the time when it was so urgent. Well, i'll tell you you,
folks, took a chance on thatplay in nineteen eighty five. Yeah,
(22:00):
and if I'm not mistaken, therevival didn't happen until twenty eleven. Yeah,
right, many years later, manyyears later, but they were acknowledged,
thank goodness. They won the TonyAward. In fact, you and
Joe won a Humanitarian Arts Campaign Awardfor your contribution, right right, Yes,
(22:25):
Well, I was very dedicated tothe play, and I was determined
to help Larry realize it in thebest way possible that he could so it
could get on. And I feltpassionate about it, and I was so
proud of it when it did geton. And it was a mixed experience
when it opened because of the negativeview and the black editorial books in the
(22:48):
paper. But you know, Joetold the cast, somewhat down cast at
the opening that he thought it wasan important play and that he was going
to run it as long as hepossibly could at the Public Theater. And
it actually became the longest running playever at the Public Theater. The audiences
(23:11):
that turned out for it were endless. They came all the time. I
had a passionate following, and itran for a very long time. Meanwhile,
it went all over the world inmany, many languages, so it
had a tremendous impact, and Ifelt very good about that he a production
(23:34):
in Poland, in Polish that weall went to see, and so in
many languages at the time that Delarryhad written it when this scourge was going
around the world, so we feltthat it served a excellent purpose in bringing
(23:57):
the human side of this crisis topeople so they could understand it better and
how it affected so many people.I mean, once again, fearlessness and
doing what's right and bringing major socialissues into the forefront of public discourse.
(24:17):
That's what you and Joe and thepublic theater are known for. That's your
legacy. I mean, goodness,gracious, you know you talk about the
AIDS epidemic at least the beginning ofit, as we do. In nineteen
eighty five, Who was talking aboutthat and who was shedding light on that,
and who was brave enough to seriouslyexamine that? Yeah, exactly.
(24:40):
You know, years before Magic Johnsonpublicly came up talking about HIV, right
almost six seven years later, Soyeah, right, this was really at
a critical moment when even the Presidentof the United States was not given such
a positive you. No, henever mentioned this. It was a national
crisis, and he never mentioned it, even though President Ronald Reagan's best friend
(25:06):
Rock Hudson had aids, right,that's right. Yeah, despite that tremendous
a feeling of taboo that existed thenit was nuts, it was crazy when
it was awful, and I justfound it so appalling it and I was
very proud that Larry was going ona rampage about it, because that's what
(25:30):
it took, and that's what itdeserved to try to get beyond that and
to get some kind of help tothe people that needed medical help. So
he did that. You know.For folks listening, this is why Public
Private My life with Joe Papp atthe Public Theater. This is why that
book is something that I highly recommend, because it is a very interesting glimpse
(25:55):
into not only many of the celebratedartists and actors that we now revere just
to read about their beginnings, theirhumble beginnings, especially at the public theater,
but also the social issues of thetimes. You know, for those
of us who were alive to seeand remember what society was to kind of
(26:18):
see a lot of those same issuesthat affected us ten, fifteen, twenty
thirty, forty plus years ago almostcome full circle, and very similar issues
affect society today. It's fascinating.It's fascinating to read the history, and
it's also fascinating to learn about someof the figures who have been doing all
(26:41):
that they can to again keep thisin the public discourse and help us understand
frame conversations, etc. Right Gil, Absolutely, I see a lot of
the history reflected in what we're goingthrough now. Although it's different, but
some of the things are very similarto what Joe and I went through back
(27:04):
then. And I thought that theway Joe handled different controversial issues in the
theater was possibly useful to younger peoplenow who don't remember those times, but
would help them formulate their own wayof handling certain crises that are confronting them
(27:26):
today. And I hope that mightbe possible. It's not that it's a
roadmap to handling anything, but Ithink it's an example primarily of what one
person or two or three people cando to change the terms of a discussion
and change the terms of action.And I believe in that very very much.
(27:49):
Although in this day and eight itmay seem like a dream but I
do believe in that it's a remarkablewhat the actions of one or two people
can do to try to remedy someof the things that are wrong that are
going on, and to give somekind of encouragement to others who are struggling
(28:15):
with them. I believe in thatvery deeply, even in the face of
appalling opposition and very bad circumstances fordialogue of any kind in certain respects.
But nevertheless, I believe in thepower of a single person to take responsibility
(28:37):
for themselves and what they do inour society. And I hope that that
message or example or whatever you wantto call it gets across to especially younger
people. I'd be thrilled that itwould be possible. And if it happened,
well said, well said. Imean, listen, we're talking fifty
(29:00):
for Tony Awards, one hundred andfifty two Obie Awards, forty two Drama
Desk Awards, five Politzer Prizes,we have fifty five public theater publications have
moved on to Broadway. Everything frombringing the Noise, bringing the funk their
to even Hamilton. Folks were forthe first to put out Hamilton. Yeah,
(29:23):
and this is why again, Ibelieve that folks listening this is a
great book for yourselves, stalking stuffers, for loved ones, grab yourself a
copy. You know, with allof the social changes that we have and
like I said, a lot ofthings coming back full circle, it's very
interesting to hear from folks who havedealt with some of these issues and have
(29:48):
found creative ways to help affect change. Not everyone is going to be an
elected official, not everyone is goingto be a protester, not you know,
there are different ways though that youcan help others. And certainly when
it comes to you know, Galeand the public theater, Joe, they've
(30:11):
helped a lot of people, andthey've touched a lot of lives, not
just the performers, not just theother folks who work behind the scenes,
but also in the audience. They'veaffected change, they've helped the discourse,
and that's just it's it's wonderful.Yeah. What's the best way that folks
can grab a copy of the book? Well, you can order it online
Bookshop or Barnes and Noble or Amazon. The three versions of it is the
(30:37):
hardcover and there's a Kendall or abook and there's also an audible version that's
wonderfully narrated by the actors Catherine Grody, so that that could be ordered online.
I love that. I love that, and listen. I got to
ask you before you go here,because you know, in addition to being
a theater fan and a fan ofsocial responsibility, and that's really what tell
(31:02):
us the truth is about shining alight on all of these various issues and
telling people that it's possible to standup for change, for sure. But
I'm also a foodie. And you, Gail being a lady, who I
know your parents are from the EastCoast, but you grew up in the
on the West Coast for a periodof time, right, yes, I
(31:22):
grew I grew up in Berkeley,California. So you are wow all the
way in Berkeley where everything was happeningduring that time period too, goodness gracious.
So I got to ask, whenyou finally, you know, set
your roots in New York with Joehere, was there anything in particular in
New York from a from a foodstandpoint that you couldn't get on the West
(31:47):
Coast or that really shocked you,like, wow, what is this here?
You know, was there any particulardish or guilty craving that you had
in New York. Okay, Will, that's interesting, I don't. I
think maybe I missed some of theWest Coast Tamali's and so forth. We
used to have those a lot inthe area. I was born there and
(32:08):
my mother was actually California also,and I grew up in schools amongst a
lot of Hispanic kids, so Ihad a taste for some of those dishes
that they liked, and it sortof continued when I came to the East
Coast. But it wasn't necessarily availablein the early days, but it is
(32:34):
now. I think there's a greatvariety of food in the city that you
can find and enjoy without any problem. So that's great. More wise,
spread taste in the availability of differentfoods. I love the fact that you
took my question and you flipped it. So it wasn't that New York and
(32:57):
knocked your socks off. It wasthe other way around, seeing what you
had back home, right in theauthentic Mexican food. Yeah, yeah,
California, absolutely, Yeah, thatwas part of my upbringing. Absolutely.
I went to schools where most ofthe population kids were or Mexican, and
(33:21):
also a very large representation of AsianAmerican kids too. So although New York
is certainly the hub of the gorgeousmosaic of population, there was some of
that in the Bay Area where Igrew up too, of a different kind,
(33:42):
but it was there, and Icertainly was sensitive to it, and
I had friends that came from thosedifferent populations. I love that, And
I asked that question because you know, whether we're talking music or the arts,
especially theater, food, you know, these are things that bring us
(34:04):
together culturally, and I believe canhelp break down barriers and bring us all
to a point where we can findways to work together and get along with
each other. Absolutely. Absolutely.My daughter in law here, she's a
very fine shift. She grew upshe's the daughter of a restauranteur in New
(34:24):
Jersey, so she knows how tocook very very well. She's always cooking
up things. And her backgrounds Italian, so we have a lot of Italian
food at home here and I justlove it. But I love that.
OK, It's just great. Ihave someone dedicated to the kind of food
(34:46):
that they grew up with, whichshe certainly is. Well. There you
have it, folks, that allthroughout her life, Gail Pap has continued
to immerse herself in culture. Gail, thank you. You know, I
appreciate you, I appreciate Joe,God rest his soul. Thank you for
telling us truth. Oh, thankyou, thankus so much for having me.
(35:07):
It's been a real pleasure talking toyou. Awesome conversation there with Gail
Pap And definitely, folks, youknow, Public Private My Life with Joe
Papp at the Public Theater, Grabyourself a copy. And that's a newer
book, you know, it justcame out within the past a couple of
weeks here, so definitely grab yourselfa copy of that. I'll tell you
(35:30):
one of the things that I wasreminded of when having this conversation with Gail
and and even reading the book.You can affect change in more than one
way, and you can affect changein your own way. Everybody doesn't have
to do it the same way,right, We all don't have to do
the same thing. So again wereiterate, not everybody is a protester on
(35:55):
the front lines, not everybody isgoing to work in the halls of government.
Not everybody is going to be themost clever social media poster, and
all this other stuff here that wesee. I think sometimes it's people feel
like it's a competition, and ifyou don't post something on social media,
(36:15):
then that means that you're not somehowcontributing positively to issues, and it's a
loadablogny. In fact, it's performativemore often than it should be with some
of these social media posts and thingslike that. Right, it's performative.
(36:38):
You don't have to put on ashow for everybody else in order to positively
affect change. No, that's silly. You find your way, you know,
it's something as simple as having aconversation with someone who may have been
less informed, misinformed to who arecontributing to the problem, and you help
(37:05):
educate them, and then you know, you help sway hearts, sway minds.
That's affecting change. Certainly with thepublic theater, they're doing that on
a much larger scale because they haveaudience members who are able to come out
and watch these plays and it causesthem to think. And we all have
had that experience, you know,you watch a play, a movie,
(37:29):
a TV show and it caused youto think, causes you to talk to
your loved ones and people in yourcircle strangers about what you saw. I
do that every single day, andI'm sure you all do as well.
So affecting change for so many yearson such a scale, it's just it's
(37:50):
incredible, incredible, And again,Gail, Joe Papp, nothing but respect
and admiration for you folks that book. Definitely check it out. Public Private,
My Life with Joe Papp at thePublic Theater. Check it out.
It's one of my favorites of theyear, no doubt, you know,
it's it brings up another serious issueand I touched upon a little bit last
(38:16):
episode, and I'm going to keeptalking about it, this whole conflict that
we have between Israel and Palestine,and just it's such a hot button,
polarizing, third rail subject that everyoneis afraid to talk about unless they're talking
(38:37):
about it a certain way, right, And it makes me ask the question
again, as I keep asking,tell us the truth, is it anti
Semitic to criticize the Israeli government orto take issue with something that they're doing.
(38:59):
I've asked that question for years onthis show. I don't get straight
answers. The answers that I getare always apprehensive answers. I've even gotten
I don't know which is honest,all right, But especially in the United
(39:19):
States of America, especially in anynation where freedom of speech, freedom of
religion, freedom of free thought exists, Why the heck can we not take
a look at the actions of electedofficials or monarchs or whatever and say,
(39:40):
hey, I agree with that,or hey I don't agree with that.
This doesn't need to be a flavorof the month or flavor of the century.
Situation issues from one to the other, change right. Born and raised,
United States of America country. It'smy home. There are things that
(40:02):
happen every single day that I bothagree and disagree with that my government does,
plain and simple, from issue toissue. You could take a look
at your local town board or citycouncil, or your your House of representatives
locally, or you can go nationallook at what your president is doing Congress.
(40:25):
From issue to issue, I agreeor I disagree, and you know,
other people agree or disagree with me. Agree and to disagree, and
that's that's okay. That's part ofthe discourse, and that's part of the
challenge of learning from one another anddriving the discussion on things. That's also
(40:46):
a way of affecting change right.The more we discuss issues. The more
educated we and others get because ofsharing ideas and we're arguing our positions on
things, and we're enlightening one another, and we can take that to the
powers that be and drive them tomove in a direction that we feel is
(41:08):
best for us as a society.Right. So it's it's it's shocking,
quite frankly, when you get shouteddown or threatened when you have the audacity
to question this war that's happening betweenPalestine and Israel. And most importantly,
(41:35):
when you disagree with some of thethings that the Israeli government is doing.
How could that possibly be anti Semitic? To criticize a government? That is
just impossible to me. It's impossible, does it does? It defies logic,
(41:55):
It defies everything that our nation isbuilt on. It defies every thing
that we're supposed to stand for.Doesn't make sense. And again, even
even with Israel and net and Yahooand what have you, from issue to
issue, I either agree or Idisagree. I don't agree with anyone killing
innocent civilians. I just I don'tagree with that. I don't care what
(42:20):
country you are, I don't agreewith my own country doing it. And
certainly we've done it. Right,So if I don't agree with my own
country doing it, why wul Iagree with you doing it? Why wouldn't
I say something about that? Andwe know that Hamas is not innocent or
warm and fuzzy or anything of thatnature, and certainly let's call that out.
(42:42):
There's a reason why they're identified asa terrorist organization, certainly, but
that doesn't mean that we can't alsopoint out the atrocities that are happening,
that are being committed by the Israeligovernment. I don't understand why you would
be painted into a corner and labeled. And you're the worst thing in the
(43:04):
world for saying that out loud.You're a third rail for saying that out
loud. They're threatening people's livelihood andjobs just for saying something like that.
Right, that doesn't even make sense. So we got to continue to do
our part and drive this conversation,regardless of how you feel on the issue
(43:30):
or what side you're picking, becausehere we go this whole US versus them
mentality. My side is always theinnocent people's side. I don't believe anyone
should be involved in a war thatdoesn't even want to be involved in a
war, you know what I mean. That might sound naive, but that's
just the truth of it, becauseI wouldn't want that to be me or
someone that I care about, SoI wouldn't want that to happen to you
(43:52):
stranger, Right, But we gotto drive this conversation and this notion,
and in my opinion, we needto call it out. Don't tell me
that I can't criticize anybody else's government. You're out of your mind. That's
ridiculous, and that goes against everythingthat we're supposed to stand for as Americans.
(44:14):
And it doesn't matter who you support, doesn't matter what side you're on,
it doesn't matter all that other stuff. At the end of the day,
no government is above scrutiny, evenwhen you agree. They're elected officials
that I have literally work side byside with and I openly disagree in question
(44:37):
and challenge and fact check because thatis the American way, that's what we're
supposed to do. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely So you can't just give it
everybody you know, the keys andsay, hey, do whatever the hell
you want. And you know,if you do something that could be interpreted
(44:59):
as question, it's all right.Because it's you, you know, anybody
else, we're gonna we're gonna comedown hard on them. But you,
yeah, you do whatever you want. NA doesn't work like that, doesn't
work like that. I don't thinkso. I think that it's it's imperative
that we trust but verify. Sincewe talked about Ronald Reagan earlier, we
(45:21):
trust but verify, Right, areyou doing enough to ensure that you're not
taking the lives of innocent people?It's as simple as that. Anthony Maroon
a close friend of mine, youknow, former military, he's a lawyer,
shout out to ants. He wason the show, one of our
(45:43):
highest rated shows ever and still ashow that was a two parter, still
something that people go back and listento. And Anthony said, war is
a racket. And this is aguy who participated in war. He was
at in every single in this nationduring the quote unquote War on Terror.
(46:06):
All right, so you're speaking fromexperience, and this is a person who
born and raised here. You know, he has roots in Lebanon as well,
so his family's originally from incredible perspectiveon things. And I've even gone
back and listened to our conversation ontell us the truth our two part of
there, and it just it's fascinatingwhen you put it in the context of
(46:28):
what we're seeing here with this thingwith Israel and Palestine the latest chapter and
that's saga, which is biblical.It's amazing because who benefits from this conflict?
Why can't we have two states?Why can't folks coexist? Why can't
(46:50):
we have a situation where we're notkilling in us, in people? Why
is the United States so apprehensive aboutdoing the right thing and and doing all
that we can to protecting us andpeople, because you know, there's a
lot of double speak going on.Yeah, they have a right to do
whatever they want to do, butyeah, but you know you got to
protect in this and people. Butyeah, we're not going to tell them
(47:13):
to cease fire. Wonder what thehell's going on here? Who's on first?
And more importantly, whoever your electedofficials are, what are they saying?
And are you someone who will holdthem accountable for how they're conducting themselves
(47:34):
in this situation? It's a fairquestion. It's a fair question to ask,
you know, but this is tellus the truth, and I'm not
going to bite my tongue and I'mnot going to play games. I'm certainly
not going to go out of myway and disrespect anybody. We all know,
if you've been listening to this show, you go back in you archives.
(47:54):
If you know anything about me,I am a person that loves culture.
I love people who love diversity.I want to learn from everybody.
Something learned from everybody, and Iwant to tap into that. And that's
why the conversations that we have onthis show and where we go with the
(48:15):
guests. It's different, right,This is a different beat here, Right,
it's a song you never heard before. It's different. But there's a
reason for that, and the foundationof that reason is respect and curiosity and
interest truth. So I'm not goingto shy away from this stuff. It's
(48:37):
not going to happen. I'm goingto be respectful, but I'm also going
to push the issue. I'm goingto challenge right, And I've put out
some invitations to some very big nameguests who are Palestinian, who are literally
from Israel, not just Jewish,but from Israel, people who are well
(48:59):
versed on what's going on on.We have some folks in our own government
who are going to be guests infuture episodes as well talking about this issue
foreign policy experts. We are goingto dig into this and we're going to
have a very adult series of conversations. And I'm encouraging everybody who's listening right
(49:22):
now. You definitely don't want tomiss what's coming up, and you want
to get everybody gathered around, andmost importantly, let's take this discussion online
and let's continue to have it.That's the way that I want to affect
change. So that's the way I'mgoing to do it. What's the point
of having a platform and having ashow if you're not going to talk about
the things that are going on thataffect us all one way or another.
(49:45):
Right, tell us the truth.So we're going to do it. And
if you or someone close to youis well versed in the issue, then
I want to hear from you.Tell us the Truth book on Twitter,
tell us the Truth dot Duke atgmail dot com. Let me know what
(50:07):
you think. Maybe you are futureguests for the show, but we're gonna
go there. We're absolutely gonna gothere. That's the point. Till next
time, becond to yourselves and bekind to others. This is e Duke
Bennett and you've been listening to tellUs the Truth. Tell Us the Truth
(50:29):
is produced in Boston in association withiHeartMedia and WBZ News Radio
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