December 17, 2024 • 38 mins
Managing people can feel like a maze—whether you’re running a business, managing a team, or just trying to survive office politics. In this Business Bible episode, we’re cutting through the noise and giving you practical, no-nonsense tips for managing people like a pro. From building a team culture to mastering feedback, and creating clear HR policies (that actually work), this episode is packed with advice to help you navigate the workplace with confidence. And don’t worry—it’s not just for business owners; these tips are universal, so whether you’re hiring your first employee or leveling up in your career, we’ve got you covered.
Acknowledgement of Country By Natarsha Bamblett aka Queen Acknowledgements.
The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's On The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs. Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa PTY LTD ABN - 321649 27708, AFSL - 451289.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, my name is Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud
your the Order, Kerney Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And
before we get started on She's on the Money podcast,
I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the
land of which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country,
acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming
(00:22):
through as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing
and the storytelling of you to make a difference for
today and lasting impactful tomorrow. Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hello and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast
that's here to make your business s marter, your leadership sharper,
and your workplace well less of a stress fest. I
am Victoria Devine, retired financial advisor, author of the business
and owner of several successful businesses. It's never not going
to be weird, Jessica saying that out loud and today
(01:07):
it's a business Bible episode. But don't scroll away if
you're not running your own business, because this one is
jam packed with tips for anyone in the workplace, whether
you're managing a team, working on your career or just
trying to navigate office life like a pro. We've got
you covered, from building a team culture that slaps to
handling those tricky Jessica, can we talk conversations? We're breaking
(01:32):
down the top five HR rules to make work less
complicated and dare I say, actually enjoyable nice and joining
me today? Is the hardest working side hustler. I know
that thankfully doesn't have any employees, so it can be
really rile on this show.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
It's just great you Yeah, hr ha's the bin in
my business.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
You're like, what time we did have a sticker on
the shredder that said hr yeah, submit to your complaint there.
I mean, it was a flawless system until we do
grow up because we became an actual business. Yes out
of ten.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
It is a really important conversation to have. Culture really
is the foundation of any business. You obviously have studied
organizational psychology VD, so I feel like you're gonna have
a little bit more insight into how that kind of
impacted the way that you manage people in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Oh my gosh, does it ever? I feel like I
wish I could just step into being a mediocre, middle
aged white man middle manager would be nice, will be
nice because they just don't care. They're like, yes, we've
got to talk, and then they will let you steal
all weekend.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Couldn't be me, couldn't been dead before the meeting, wouldn't
been me.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Like, I send meeting requests with catch up in brackets,
good thing. Don't worry, Yeah, because I am so worried
that I'll stress you out over nothing. But I also
have a very clean framework of performance management if things
aren't going as well as they should.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Which is important.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, I feel like yes and no, Like it's kind
of like helped obviously, but it's also hindered not making
it bad. But I do put a lot of pressure
on myself to make sure that it's an enjoyable workplace
and things are going well. And I don't know, I'm
not a genius. I'm just a girl out here trying
to do my best. We all, but we do have
some rules, you know, all right? Tell me are these rules?
(03:17):
What's number one? All right? So first things first, I
think it's about getting really clear on your HR policies
early and also knowing your legal obligations. So from my perspective,
HR policies are kind of like the rule book of
how your workplace should work, and there's a free one
online like you can go onto the fair Work website.
(03:39):
They will have that HR Policies and Procedure document that
you can download and edit to your heart's content. Without them,
I think you're setting your team up for some confusion
and inconsistency and unnecessary drama. And then if you're also
a first time employer, it's a really good expectations setter
with you. You might not know that you have these obligations. Yeah,
(04:00):
you might go, oh, I didn't realize that I had
to give them twenty four hours noticed for this type
of meeting, or I didn't realize that I needed to
do a B and C. And that doesn't mean that
you're a bad manager. It just means you've not led
people before. And if you have led people before and
you don't know these obligations, it's a good reminder to
go and do that. So clear policies protect everyone. I
(04:22):
know that lots of people will say, well, HR's they
are to protect the company, And from the perspective of
an employer, yes it is. And why is it? Because
if I'm doing the right thing by you Jess, I'm
protecting the company, Like, I'm not here to do the
wrong thing like HR, and having a HR person doesn't
(04:42):
mean you can't take me to fair work if I
did the wrong thing. It doesn't mean that you can't,
you know, seek legal injunction if you needed to. Like, yeah,
it doesn't protect me in that way. So yes, HR
works for me, but at the end of the day,
I employ them to look after you and by virtue,
look after me. Like our HR makes sure that I
(05:02):
know what policies and procedures exist. And surprisingly you can
have internal HR, which we don't have, or external HR,
which is like a consulting service. Yeah, that kind of
come in a bit like a bookkeeper and just make
sure that everything's all good. Yeah, Like, how would I
know that employment law has changed if I've had my
head in the podcast realm for the last month. They
email me and they're like, hey, they just so you know,
(05:24):
update XYZX with your bookkeeper to make sure that you're
staying within the breadth of what you need to.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, because as an employer, you have that responsibility, don't you.
Hundred proceeds to make sure that you're on and like.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Having a clear document or having a clear location to
keep phar policies is going to mean that you know,
everyone knows their rights, they know their responsibilities, and they
also know how to handle things if things aren't going
well like that's important.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Yeah, absolutely, What does that look like in action?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So obviously starting with essentials. What's your onboarding process? Yes,
ours is still rogue, I'm really sorry. What are your
leave entitlements? So that should also be in your employment contracts?
What do performance reviews look like? How are we going
to do that? And also how are we handling conflict?
You might and everyone does at the start of their business.
(06:13):
Go it's sunshine and roses. There's never going to be
conflict in my business.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
May well be conflict in your business.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
May your delunu come true? True? There's always going to
be something, And it doesn't mean that the conflict lasts.
It just means you need to have a process for
talking it through and nipping it in the butt so
that it doesn't become a bigger thing. But if there's
no process, you're gone spiral and you don't know how
to deal with it. So from my perspective, it's keep
it simple. All processes should be as simple as possible.
(06:43):
They should be super easy to understand, also accessible to everybody.
It's not some policy that you've said that no one
else is able to communicate. No one should have to,
you know, decode some legal, bloody jargon just to understand
how to apply for annual leve or to know what
to expect during a performance review. And then this is
my psychotic side stepping in document everything. Maybe this comes
(07:07):
from my financial advice world probably, but like even when
I've spoken to you about things, jess, what do I say?
Send yourself an email? Yeap doesn't even have to be
this like super formal process. But if you email something
to yourself, you are time stamping it. You can't edit that,
you can't edit the time and email ends up in
your inbox. And if ever anything should happen, you can
(07:28):
go back and find all of those things and say, well,
actually I do remember what happened because I sent myself
an email when it was still fresh in my mind
of everything that happened. Here is my file note. So
you could file note it properly. You could do it
on a word document. You could have like an internal
crem that you might manage those things through. But at
the very least. Emailing it to yourself is really helpful.
(07:51):
So obviously having a printed handbook fantastic. But if something's
happening and you're having conversations with people, document them that
to be a waste of time because like you know,
I've never had to do this with you, thank god,
But like if I had to have a serious conversation
with you, Jess, I would send myself an email so
that then I could go back and be like, well,
what did I talk to Jess about the first time?
(08:13):
You know, what did she say about this? So if
there's a second follow up, I can be like, look, Jess,
I documented it the first time, and this is what
we said, this with the outcomes, this is what we've meant,
this is what we haven't met. And I think that
that's really important because time makes things cloudy. So if
time passes and I'm like, oh, yes, I had to
chat to you about this before, and you go, yeah,
(08:34):
what was I meant to do again?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
And you go, oh, I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, unacceptable. Also, there's no way you wouldn't have documented
it your Jess. You would have come to the table.
It's not the point. I'm just using it as an exactly,
but I think reviewing and updating regularly because your team
is going to grow, laws are going to change, Your
policies might need tweaking to stay relevant. And I think
summary of all of that is just have clear document
(09:00):
mened HR policies and if you have them and don't
use them.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
That's great, amazing.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, but I'd prefer you to have them and not
need them, then need them and not have them. Oh
one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
How would you approach building the team when you're making
those first hiring decisions. Obviously you create first choice in.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Me, Yeah, she's on the money team started off on
the best push could done. It wouldn't have done it better. No,
So I have a theory and it's called higher slow, firefast.
Oh it sounds real savage, but we have quite a
recruitment process. If you're listening to this and you've ever
been through it, I apologize, but I also don't because
(09:39):
it means that you can find the right role and
I can find the right fit. So it's about making
sure that there are multiple points of contact. I don't
just like have a coffee catch up with someone and
be like, hey, yes, do you want a job? Like
poor Jess, like you were put through even as my
first hire, like on nine interview interview in person Q
and A what would this look like? How would this work?
(09:59):
I think because I was into content for the business
Bible at that point. I made you go into a
sound booth and like we have that somewhere. Yeah, I
made you record yourself and what you were feeling. Like
that's probably not accepted, not against just a bit weird,
But at the end of the day, bringing somebody into
your team is the biggest commitment ever, Like from my perspective,
(10:23):
it's so scary as well, because like I don't know,
I pay your income, Like that is a massive commitment
and I don't want you to rush that process. And
it's not just about your resume. It's also about how
they bring themselves to the table. What they're like tenacity
is like what their work values, their values, their cultural fit,
(10:44):
their goals. Like so I think using multiple rounds of
interviews is really smart and if possible, involve your team.
So now that we do have a bigger team, whenever
I'm hiring someone new, the first port of call will
be a phone interview with somebody that's not me. Second
call is an interview with me, And if all of
that is going swimmingly, you get invited to an interview
(11:05):
with some of the team members and I'm not there.
And that's purposeful because then you can be like, Jess,
what's that actually like working for THEE what's your work
life balance?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Like?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
You know, what does your weekends look like? You know
what does you know work task allocation look like? How
does team communication go? What's worked from home? Actually you
don't ask all those questions, but then the team can
also work out if you're somebody that they would interact
with consistently on a daily basis. You get a vibe,
you get a feel, and I think that to just
rely on a resume is silly.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
It's very outdated, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
One hundred percent our data? And like Jess, lots of
people applied for roles that you applied for and you
got it and you didn't even have a degree because
you were the right fit. And yeah, have I regretted that,
Maybe a little, but no. But have I regretted that No?
Because you've been here for years now and have been
an integral part of the team. I don't regret that
(11:57):
for a second. So I think it's so important to
do that. But on the flip side, fire fast, I
can tell you right now, if you talk to any
manager who's hired someone you and they've known if it
was a bad fit, they know within the first week.
So it does not mean that they do anything about that, though,
Like you need to nip that in the button, pull
that person aside. Hey Barry, I'm really sorry, this just
(12:19):
isn't working out for you or me. It gives them
the opportunity to go find something that works for them,
and you the opportunity to find the right team member.
Like it can lower team morale having the wrong person
on the team, like it can impact your productivity. It
can even hurt that person in the role because they
might thrive somewhere else. You're impacting their confidence. Yeah, if
they're not good at that job, let them go. Like yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Feel some people might hold on because they feel almost
like a sailure, like if they've made gone, oh I
think I made the right decision, and then they go, oh,
maybe it's not feeling right. Maybe they could go, oh, yeah,
I was so confident or I saw XYZ. Yeah, but
do you think it's fair to say that until you
have someone doing the job in your tea in routine,
Like people can put their best foot forward in an
(13:04):
interview and it just not translate in the way to one.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
And I think that you might look at me and go, Victoria,
that's ruthless, that's awful, Like give them a chance if
you can't show me your best in the first few
weeks of your employment, like what is going on? Like
are you not meant to put your best foot forward
during that period of time? And it probably does sound ruthless,
but at the end of the day, for me, it's
about clarity, it's about respect, it's about being upfront and
(13:30):
professional with that person. And I find that kind of
than dragging it out and firing them in six months.
Like I have interviewed and hired somebody before who had
just got a new role, and I said, why are
you here? Didn't you just say that you have a
new role, And they said, yeah, absolutely, I've been there
for two weeks and it's absolutely not the right fear. Yeah.
(13:51):
I had so much respect for that person because I
was like, really, tell me about that, what does that mean?
And ended up hiring them. They've stayed. It's fantastic. But
I had so much respect because they knew to pull
the trigger early, and they were like, I'm not going
to waste the business's time. I feel like my time's
being wasted.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
The expectations they sat in the interview were not what
it ended up being. Like, I have a lot more
respect for that, and I've also got a lot more
respect for other people that I'm not going to drag
it out. Yeah, it's not fair.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
That feels reasonable to me.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I feel like it does. But you know, on the
flip side, if you just got your new job and
then you find a week later you're not the right fit, doesn't.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, but I guess hr or like you know, making
hiring choices more broadly, you have to take the emotion
out of it a little bit one hundred and before
out right you have to make the decision that's right
for you, right for the team. Because as much as
like in an I Do world, no one would ever
hurt anybody's feelings and everyone would get along and everything
would be perfect.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
See I agree, and I don't agree. So, like, taking
the emotion out of it is important for clear decision making,
and I do that, but then I think it's important
to inject your personality and your ethics and your morals
back in to it to be empathetic. Yeah, one hundred percent.
There is what fair work says you need to do. Right, So, like,
let's say we are terminating somebody, Like, there is what
(15:09):
fair work says, I need to make sure that I
give someone twenty four hours notice before I terminate their role.
I need to offer them a support person all of
that other stuff. But is that the kindest way to
do it? Yeah, probably not. We'll do that as a
bare minimum, But like there are additional things that I
can layer on top of that, like making sure that
I have a very clear process of performance management. So
(15:31):
if somebody isn't performing well, I'm not just going to
go Okay, cool, we're done and I've given them warnings,
but I haven't. I'm going to make sure that my
language is clear, my warnings are clear. I'm going to
make sure that when it comes to that termination process,
I'm clear in giving feedback, because if I'm not giving
that person feedback, I'm not helping them grow in the
next role, and I'm setting them up for failure. And
(15:53):
a lot of the time it's not a personal decision.
It's a technical competency issue and going cool. We've tried X, Y,
and Z and it's just not working. But what can
I do to be the kindest in this situation? Because
it feels like trash but quiet. No one wants that. Yeah,
So I think it's about making sure that you don't
just take all the emotion out of it, because I
(16:14):
think that empathetic leadership needs some level of emotion still
to still have your wits about you. I'm not the devil, Yeah,
do you know what I mean? Your boss? Yeah, like
I am your boss, but also I'm not a dick.
Or maybe I am, but like I try really hard
not to be sometimes. But let's go to a really
quick break. I feel like we're just getting started. After
(16:35):
the break, I'm going to dive into it. I guess
the secret source for keeping your workplace running smoothly everything
from communication, feedback, and building a culture that people actually
want to stick around for. So stay tuned.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Alright, everyone, we're that vid. We've talked about policies and hiring,
but once you've got the right people in place, what's
the next step for making sure that everything does run smoothly?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Culture?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Culture, culture without ah at the end.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Culture got to make sure you have good culture. Culture
is so important. But before you get culture, I feel
like everybody throws this term of like, oh, culture is
so important at work? Is culture that important? If you
have shitty communication?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Is shitty communication symptom of.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Bad culture exactly. So the first thing I want to
talk about is communication. Great. It's funny because on our
Friday Drinks episode, yes, we're always like, oh, we've got
a dilemma, and what said ninety nine point nine nine
percent of the time, Oh, if you just communicated. Communication
is that glue that sticks cell workplace together, Like it
(17:46):
is something that you need to have open and flowing.
But then also realize, if a change is being made
often don't take it personally. So I think that sometimes
people will go, oh my god, my boss decided to
implement like a rule where we only get forty five
minutes of our lunch break. Why are we taking this
so personally? Like it's just a rule, someone's broken it great,
(18:07):
No aries like pick it up, move forward, like we've
just changed the way that we're working. But without good communication,
where places start full part, things start to get tricky
and hard and consistent and clear communication is going to
keep you on track. It's going to mean that you
stay aligned, but it's also going to reduce friction, and
it's going to create an environment where everyone feels heard
(18:28):
and informed. And on top of things, you've got four
seas Jessica and I've talked about them before on the podcast.
You've got clarity, consistency, context, and collaboration and to have
effective communication, you need to meet all four of these things.
And it sounds lame, but having a framework makes life
so much easier as a leader because so often I'll
(18:51):
be like, but I told her in my head and
then realize that maybe I didn't meet the four seas
and that probably was an effective communication. I was just
busy and trying to get rid of it. So clarity
is obviously being really specific, being really concise, like not
saying things like oh, yes, we need to do better, great,
saying something like okay, to do better, we need to
(19:12):
deliver that draft by next Friday at four pm. Yeah,
like being really clear. The next is consistency, So staying
regular with your updates, making sure that things are shared
meetings via email or via Slack. Repetition means that everybody
is aligned. Context is important. If you tell me to
do something and I don't know why or when or
(19:33):
where a haw, like, how am I going to do that?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Like?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Oh, Jess, can you fix that project? What? Projects?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And context is key even in just like the urgency.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Like one hundred percent, like oh, the client doesn't like it,
can you change it?
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
What? Like we need some context. So for example, instead
of just asking, oh, can you make some changes because
the client doesn't like it, saying the client asked for
revisions to better align with their branding, the colors a
bit off, could you please update it? They also would
prefer to feature instead of be yeah, okay, no worries.
Like Also, if you're providing context like oh, the client
(20:07):
just didn't like it, that feels personal. Yeah, like ill, David,
we are not making things personal. We're taking the personal
out of it. Like clients can be frustrating. If any
of my clients are listening, turn this off right now,
your old delights. But it can be very frustrating sometimes
when a client gives you feedback not effectively communicated, not
effectively communicated, and you can't manage that. Yeah, so manage
(20:29):
your team. So I know that you have had this historically,
just not at the moment, thank god, where a client
has just said oh, I don't like it, I want
to make changes, and I've had to then go back
to you, Jess and be like, oh, the client doesn't
like it, I need to then communicate with you. Look,
the client has said they don't like it, they haven't
given me a lot of context. Unfortunately, this is the feedback.
Have a look at the emails. These are the communications
(20:51):
I've had with them before, and like you and I
have had to sit down and decipher maybe what they
meant because we haven't been able to do that. But
if I said, oh, they just didn't like it, just
moved on, you think that I'm being a little bit flippant,
Whereas the situation is a bit deeper than that. So
when you have context, great share it. But if you
don't have context, also share that you have no context
(21:12):
of us a yeah, and provide as much information on
the fact that you're in the dark as well.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Is really important. And I think so many times issues
arise because I'll be like, well, Jess, you didn't tell me,
and then you go, oh, well I wasn't told either,
and I go well, why didn't you tell me that
you weren't told? It just becomes a whole thing and
it doesn't need to be. And then the last one
is collaboration. So we're creating a space for two way dialogue,
which I have sadly done in my business, where you
(21:40):
give me feedback as much as I'm giving you feedback,
and it's actually a really good thing. So I'm asking you, guys, well,
what's your perspective on this decision I'm making, and vice versa.
So sometimes I'm humbled and I'm like, I've got this
really great idea. It's called twenty twenty thrive, right, so
we're going to name our whole thing twenty twenty thrive.
You know what. My team came back and said, looks great,
(22:01):
But Victoria, in text, it looks like you've said two
zero tooth thrive. What's to zero tooth thrive? Yeah, sounds
good when I speak it. So twenty twenty thrive slay
when you put it on a heading looks terrible and
I needed to be humbled. So we're not using that
as aggressively. We'll use it on the podcast, but it
can't be a heading for something because it just doesn't translate. Yeah,
(22:25):
can you imagine if my team were just agreeable.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Life would be easy but hard great, dear.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Victoria, that's and it really float everybody's vote like it
would have been awful. Right, So I think collaboration making
sure that people feel safe to challenge, but also they
feel confident to share their opinions, and that can be
harder done. Then said, yeah, you really have to cultivate
a safe smuch. Yes, because I know in my business, thankfully,
(22:54):
you guys can be like Victoria, that is a terrible idea,
and I'll be like fair. Whereas I'm sure there are
people listening to this. If they told their boss that
something was a terrible idea, they'd be like, get out
of my office, or even worse, you know what I mean.
So you've got to read the room. So what I'm
feeling is great. Communication isn't just about talking. It's about
ensuring that everybody understands, they feel heard, they know next steps.
(23:18):
I feel like, when in doubt, over communicate rather than
assuming everyone's on the same page. Because when they say,
when you assume, you make an ass out of you
and me, You've said that one time before, I believe, well, first,
what about.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
When things aren't going as planned though, or if you
need to maybe recalibrate the way that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
It's almost like communication is key here, Jess. Really it's
actually crazy. But I'm also going to say feedback, communicate feedback.
The number four rule is make sure that you were
using a framework for effective communication and effective feedback. It
matters for so many different reasons.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
You might think by just delivering some feedback and walking off,
that's enough, and it's just really not.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
So.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Feedback is one of the most powerful tools for people
for personal and professional growth. And I think sometimes even
framing it and being like, hey, like and thank god
I haven't had to do this, I feel like I've
given you feedback that you haven't liked before, but it's worked. Well. Hey, Jess,
I'm going to give you some feedback. And I'm aware
that this might not be the nicest thing to hear,
(24:20):
but I hope you know that when I'm telling you this,
it's coming from a place of love and wanting you
to be better and do better. And I know you
can as opposed to me being critical, Right, And then
you can go, oh, okay, you've kind of braced yourself
for the feedback, but also you know that I'm aware
that that could be a dick thing to share. I
don't want you to immediately go v said that she
(24:42):
hated my thing, and that can has all in the delivery.
When feedback is done correctly, it improves performance. It improves
like the strength of your team, team dynamics. It builds trust,
like I think that good feedback coming from somebody who
wants you to do well a gift, whereas some people
think that just being rude or being like well, I
(25:04):
don't like it, Like, yeah, that's not feedback, that's opinion.
And you need to decipher the difference between personal opinion
and feedback as well. I think that's something that a
lot of people don't do well. They will deliver it
and be like, oh, I think that's terrible, and then
it's like, well, actually doesn't meet the brief like you
might not like this. You know, it happens a lot
in marketing, like people will say that they don't like something,
(25:27):
but it's actually personal opinion, and then you realize there's
a lot of research behind why it's presented that way.
Have a think about how you're delivering it and where
this feedback is coming from on the flip side. If
you're giving bad feedback, poor feedback, or even no feedback
at all, it leaves people a bit confused. They're like,
I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know how
to do this. They're unmotivated. They might be a little
bit resentful, and I think that is a really awful
(25:51):
position to be in. It doesn't help for the culture, naysaka,
and we're all about the culture one hundred percent. So
this is where you want to use a frameworking again,
and my favorite framework is the situation impact action framework.
So if you're giving feedback, let's do a little roleplay example.
So you're going to describe what happened, so the situation
(26:12):
focusing only on the facts. So example, in the last meeting,
you spoke over Sarah while she was sharing her thoughts.
Sarah doesn't exist while she was sharing her ideas. And
then you're going to explain the impact. So we're not
going to talk about how on I just don't think
that's very enough. No no, no, no, no, no, cut that out.
(26:32):
We don't care about that. You're then going to explain
why it matters and how it affected the team. Or
the project, so it really interrupted her flow and made
it harder for her to fully explain her point, and
then she just seemed a bit hesitant to speak up again. Valid. Valid.
Then what's the action, So we're not just going to
be like you spoke over somebody made her feel bad
(26:54):
and drop the mic and walk out. Yeah, what behavior
do we want modeled in the future. Look, let's just
make sure that everyone gets to finish their thoughts before
we jump in. I know you're really excited about that
and really enthusiastic, So maybe just take a quick pause
to check if anyone is like still speaking, make sure
they're done before you're jumping in. Great, really simple. When
(27:14):
you're really simple, really easy, it's not about personal opinion,
which I think is where feedback gets really cloudy. Yeah,
it sets you out for success, and they're probably going
to go, yeah, you're right, that will help me.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, it's a simple thing. They know exactly what they
need to do, no harm, no file, they can fix
it for an extra.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
And it's funny because that example would literally never happen
with you, Jessica. It would happen with me. I speak
over everybody I do, and you are like the thoughtful
one that goes, oh, I have a point and they
raise my hand. Yeah, like you put your hand up
or something, so like, that's a terrible example. If you
were imagining Jessica in it, just imagine that that was
being delivered to me, because I would feel much better
(27:54):
if someone was like, oh, you did this thing and
it impacted somebody else in the future, you need to
do this. I'll be like, Okay, cool, no worry. Yeah,
Whereas if somebody was giving me feedback and they're like,
stop talking over jess I'd be like, oh, sorry.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
And you feel bad about yourself and that doesn't help anything.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
It doesn't help anyone or anything, because then I don't
even realize when I did that. Was it at lunch
or was it at dinner? Like do I do it
all the time, Like, yeah, we're nipping it in the butt?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Can I say yeah? I also think it's really important
when using this framework to think about who you're delivering
to in the way that they lack to receive feedback.
And I think a particularly relevant example is exactly what
you were just saying with how you interrupt. For you,
it's because of your neurodiversity, and I think I'm.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Glad I have an excuse.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Yeah, But I think it's also like really important when
we're talking about like, obviously this is a great broad framework,
but people are so unique and the way that I
receive feedback, the way you receive feedback, I think getting
to know your team, and I feel like we're going
to maybe talk about this a little bit in about
five seconds.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Maybe I'm really ahead? Am I hot rut?
Speaker 3 (28:53):
But I think like that's a really important thing, And
you know, acknowledging that certain behaviors may be results of
neurodiversity or past experience or things like that as well.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
And I know that talking over people can be perceived
as being incredibly rude, right, but I think we're at
a point in our team. I'm not saying it's acceptable.
I do try my best, please, I'm not saying that
that's okay, But I think that when I do that
accidentally now still people aren't like Victoria thinks she's more important,
Like I think that because we fully comprehend each other
(29:26):
and I've shared that, people are like, oh, she's just
so excited about the next point. Yeah, And sometimes the
teams like they sit down, like go back two steps
please go back two steps, because we're actually not talking
about that yet. We're still not done here. And I
think that that can be a really good way of
managing it as well. Like a lot of people might
take personal offense, be like, oh my god, I can't
believe Victoria's spoke over me again in that meeting. It's
(29:50):
not because I don't respect you. I've promised you that.
And I think that having that context is really really important.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I completely agree, and I think it filters really nicely
into creating great team culture. How do you make sure
that you know, whatever business company culture you're building is
something that people actually want to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
You've actually just got to post on social media all
the time. Oh yeah, I've got a post like really
attractive pictures of yourself and your team, like and your
team loving you.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
That's how to do good culture. End the episode there.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
In fact, do you know what's funny about that is
I have met so many people who have been like, oh, actually,
our internal team culture is nothing like you see online.
And I think that's a very common thing. I think
it's a very common thing for businesses to be posting
online about this and thinking that culture comes from what
the content they share, And I think it's important to
point out because I'm so aware of that. Like, I
(30:43):
think you and I can agree. I don't even have
to agree to this, but like our team will probably
be like, yeah, what you see online is exactly how
we are in person, because it's just what naturally happens.
But I think building a culture starts from internal and
it starts from the top. So like, if I'm not
role modeling the behaviors that I expect, how do I
(31:05):
expect other people doing them? And if we're not doing
them internally, how are we expecting people to see them
on the outside. How are we expecting to talk about
how great we are if we're not actually great internally.
I can't think of anything more mortifying than being like, yeah,
I really respect my team and then my team in
the background rolling their eyes like ill. That gives me
the ick so hard. So if we think about the
(31:26):
best workplace culture we can, we're going to imagine people
are super engaged and supported and they're genuinely happy to
show up, and that kind of energy doesn't just happen.
And I guess the opposite is a workplace where tension
and competition end up taking over and nobody feels valued,
and then everyone just waits for the countdown five o'clock
(31:46):
when they can run.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Out of their laptop, shut bag on back.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
And bad culture drains teams, and it fuels turnover, and
it kills productivity. And I mean a thriving culture. It
doesn't just boost morale. It actually turns your workplace into
a place that people want to stay and grow and
do their best. And I'm very lucky that I used
to work as a culture and engagement consultant and so
I work on a say, stay and thrive model. So
(32:12):
that's my concept that I work on. And if you
can meet all three of these things, I think you're
well on the way to having a good team culture
internally and externally. And whether you're an employer this applies obviously,
But if you're an employee, having a think about this.
So I want people to be saying good things about
my business when I'm not around. You don't need to
say it in front of me. That doesn't matter. But
(32:32):
like imagine Jess, You're at a barbecue on the weekend
and someone says, Jess, where do you work? And you say,
I work a cheese of the money. Are you going
to go, oh, I work at cheese all the money
and they go how is it? And then you go whatever,
let's not talk about work, or you go, oh my gosh,
I love my job. I do this, I do that right,
So I want people saying good things. The second is stay,
So that's about tenure and having low turnover. Are people
(32:55):
incentivized and want to stay with the company, Like, are
they in a position where they want to stay for
the longevity? Do they see a career there, do they
see that they are respected and you know, enjoying it,
or are they looking for a new job. Yeah, So
I want to meet those two. And then the third
one is the strive component. And I feel like this
strive component it is something that you can't pay people for.
(33:19):
You can pay people all the money in the world,
but this is about cultural fit and hiring the right
people because if you have hired the right people, they
will strive for your business. They will go above and beyond.
They won't have to be asked to go above and beyond,
because if you have a good culture, you're not asking
people to stay late. But you'll notice things happening in
the background. Like they're saying good things about your business.
(33:41):
They are you know, promoting it, they're you know, staying
in their role and they're going above and beyond because
they feel respected and they feel like, you know, they're
really contributing to the greater good. They understand that there's
effective and clear leadership. They understand that there is you know,
career opportunities for them on the table or you know what.
Not everyone's looking for career opportunities. Some people just want
(34:02):
a steady job and that's cool too, But like they
understand that their position is respected. And I think that
that's what culture looks like in action. So those three
things are going to contribute to having highly engaged employees.
And to go back to me being a culture and
engagement consultant, we know that businesses that have engaged employees
(34:23):
have fifty percent higher shareholder return than businesses that have
disengaged employees. Are crazy, So just by focusing on culture,
you are impacting the bottom line of your business. Yeah,
And like I could go into it for days. We
don't have time, but I could go into it for
days about how your team are what makes your business successful.
(34:46):
And that's why often when I'm interviewed or I'm talking
to people and they're like, you've done so well, and
I'm I guess it's not me, it's my team. I'm
not even flipping it off me. I'm like, I wouldn't
be where I would be today without a solid team.
But my solid team comes from being respected and having
that back and forth relationship. And I mean, to me,
good culture is the difference between a workplace people endua
(35:09):
and a workplace people thrive in. And so I think
when you create a culture of the lines with your
team's values and makes them feel connected, you're not just
building a team, You're kind of building loyalty and creativity
and success. They can still leave though, because we had
a team and believe more than a year ago now.
(35:30):
And I think it's so important to understand where you sit.
So like, obviously I've done say stay and strive and
stays great, But like, what if you outgrow the role,
that doesn't mean that you become disengaged with a culture.
If somebody in my business has outgrown a role, For example,
Gabby in our business, so I could talk about her
because she loved this. She worked in marketing in our business.
(35:53):
She started as EA worked her way up, did marketing,
and then God offered an epic marketing role at the AFL.
You can't compete with that. Yeah, so what am I
going to do? Be mad about that or be grateful
that I got to be along the journey of that. Yes,
I loved the fact that we got to be a
part of her journey. I was sad that she was leaving,
but now I'm so proud that she's on the money
(36:14):
helped her get there.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Yeah, slay Absolutely. I feel like those five rules set
a really good foundation for HR and for managing people
in general, not even just from like a business owner perspective,
but also just anyone in the workplace. You know, these
are the things that you want to be looking for.
They should be the standard that we're holding our employers to.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah. And if you have listened to this and you're like,
I'm not say, I'm not stay, I'm not strived, look
for a new job, I'm sorry to the employers listening,
but like, if you're not doing those three things, you're
not engaged, and it's good for them that you're going
to move on, but also it's great for you because
you're going to find somewhere that you actually feel valued totally, absolutely,
And I think if you're running your own business or
(36:54):
managing a team where you're just trying to be a
better cowork or friend at work, these rules are universal.
It's all about setting clear expectations and fostering open, honest
communication and building a culture where people actually want to
show up the big one. Oh, I think we've done
for today. But before we wrap up, Jess, in the
new year, Business Bible's having a glow up.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
We love to see it, we do.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
We're giving Business Bible its own dedicated feed again. That
is right. It is getting a revamp. There are some
really fun things planned and I know you're going to
love it. So make sure you hit the link in
our show notes to subscribe so you don't miss a thing.
Because Business Bible episodes are no longer going to be
on the shees on the Money feed. Whether you're already
a loyal Business Bible fan, thank you, or you're new
(37:37):
to the series, this is the perfect time to jump in.
Big things are coming and I cannot wait to share
with you what we have been working on behind the scenes. Oh,
it's so exciting. I'll be hitting subscribe at up. I
love that. You better because it's twenty twenty five next year, Jessica,
we love it. We're going to use that in audio
all the time.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Have a good rest of your week.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
God bye. The advice shared on She's on the Money
is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances.
She's on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and
should not be relied upon to make an investment or
financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product,
(38:22):
read the PDS TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored
towards your needs. Victoria Divine and She's on the Money
are authorized representatives of Money. Sheper Pty Ltd a BN
three two one six four nine two seven seven zero
eight AFSL four five one two eight nine
Hello, my name is Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud
your the Order, Kerney Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And
before we get started on She's on the Money podcast,
I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the
land of which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country,
acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming
(00:22):
through as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing
and the storytelling of you to make a difference for
today and lasting impactful tomorrow. Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hello and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast
that's here to make your business s marter, your leadership sharper,
and your workplace well less of a stress fest. I
am Victoria Devine, retired financial advisor, author of the business
and owner of several successful businesses. It's never not going
to be weird, Jessica saying that out loud and today
(01:07):
it's a business Bible episode. But don't scroll away if
you're not running your own business, because this one is
jam packed with tips for anyone in the workplace, whether
you're managing a team, working on your career or just
trying to navigate office life like a pro. We've got
you covered, from building a team culture that slaps to
handling those tricky Jessica, can we talk conversations? We're breaking
(01:32):
down the top five HR rules to make work less
complicated and dare I say, actually enjoyable nice and joining
me today? Is the hardest working side hustler. I know
that thankfully doesn't have any employees, so it can be
really rile on this show.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
It's just great you Yeah, hr ha's the bin in
my business.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
You're like, what time we did have a sticker on
the shredder that said hr yeah, submit to your complaint there.
I mean, it was a flawless system until we do
grow up because we became an actual business. Yes out
of ten.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
It is a really important conversation to have. Culture really
is the foundation of any business. You obviously have studied
organizational psychology VD, so I feel like you're gonna have
a little bit more insight into how that kind of
impacted the way that you manage people in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Oh my gosh, does it ever? I feel like I
wish I could just step into being a mediocre, middle
aged white man middle manager would be nice, will be
nice because they just don't care. They're like, yes, we've
got to talk, and then they will let you steal
all weekend.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Couldn't be me, couldn't been dead before the meeting, wouldn't
been me.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Like, I send meeting requests with catch up in brackets,
good thing. Don't worry, Yeah, because I am so worried
that I'll stress you out over nothing. But I also
have a very clean framework of performance management if things
aren't going as well as they should.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Which is important.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, I feel like yes and no, Like it's kind
of like helped obviously, but it's also hindered not making
it bad. But I do put a lot of pressure
on myself to make sure that it's an enjoyable workplace
and things are going well. And I don't know, I'm
not a genius. I'm just a girl out here trying
to do my best. We all, but we do have
some rules, you know, all right? Tell me are these rules?
(03:17):
What's number one? All right? So first things first, I
think it's about getting really clear on your HR policies
early and also knowing your legal obligations. So from my perspective,
HR policies are kind of like the rule book of
how your workplace should work, and there's a free one
online like you can go onto the fair Work website.
(03:39):
They will have that HR Policies and Procedure document that
you can download and edit to your heart's content. Without them,
I think you're setting your team up for some confusion
and inconsistency and unnecessary drama. And then if you're also
a first time employer, it's a really good expectations setter
with you. You might not know that you have these obligations. Yeah,
(04:00):
you might go, oh, I didn't realize that I had
to give them twenty four hours noticed for this type
of meeting, or I didn't realize that I needed to
do a B and C. And that doesn't mean that
you're a bad manager. It just means you've not led
people before. And if you have led people before and
you don't know these obligations, it's a good reminder to
go and do that. So clear policies protect everyone. I
(04:22):
know that lots of people will say, well, HR's they
are to protect the company, And from the perspective of
an employer, yes it is. And why is it? Because
if I'm doing the right thing by you Jess, I'm
protecting the company, Like, I'm not here to do the
wrong thing like HR, and having a HR person doesn't
(04:42):
mean you can't take me to fair work if I
did the wrong thing. It doesn't mean that you can't,
you know, seek legal injunction if you needed to. Like, yeah,
it doesn't protect me in that way. So yes, HR
works for me, but at the end of the day,
I employ them to look after you and by virtue,
look after me. Like our HR makes sure that I
(05:02):
know what policies and procedures exist. And surprisingly you can
have internal HR, which we don't have, or external HR,
which is like a consulting service. Yeah, that kind of
come in a bit like a bookkeeper and just make
sure that everything's all good. Yeah, Like, how would I
know that employment law has changed if I've had my
head in the podcast realm for the last month. They
email me and they're like, hey, they just so you know,
(05:24):
update XYZX with your bookkeeper to make sure that you're
staying within the breadth of what you need to.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, because as an employer, you have that responsibility, don't you.
Hundred proceeds to make sure that you're on and like.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Having a clear document or having a clear location to
keep phar policies is going to mean that you know,
everyone knows their rights, they know their responsibilities, and they
also know how to handle things if things aren't going
well like that's important.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Yeah, absolutely, What does that look like in action?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So obviously starting with essentials. What's your onboarding process? Yes,
ours is still rogue, I'm really sorry. What are your
leave entitlements? So that should also be in your employment contracts?
What do performance reviews look like? How are we going
to do that? And also how are we handling conflict?
You might and everyone does at the start of their business.
(06:13):
Go it's sunshine and roses. There's never going to be
conflict in my business.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
May well be conflict in your business.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
May your delunu come true? True? There's always going to
be something, And it doesn't mean that the conflict lasts.
It just means you need to have a process for
talking it through and nipping it in the butt so
that it doesn't become a bigger thing. But if there's
no process, you're gone spiral and you don't know how
to deal with it. So from my perspective, it's keep
it simple. All processes should be as simple as possible.
(06:43):
They should be super easy to understand, also accessible to everybody.
It's not some policy that you've said that no one
else is able to communicate. No one should have to,
you know, decode some legal, bloody jargon just to understand
how to apply for annual leve or to know what
to expect during a performance review. And then this is
my psychotic side stepping in document everything. Maybe this comes
(07:07):
from my financial advice world probably, but like even when
I've spoken to you about things, jess, what do I say?
Send yourself an email? Yeap doesn't even have to be
this like super formal process. But if you email something
to yourself, you are time stamping it. You can't edit that,
you can't edit the time and email ends up in
your inbox. And if ever anything should happen, you can
(07:28):
go back and find all of those things and say, well,
actually I do remember what happened because I sent myself
an email when it was still fresh in my mind
of everything that happened. Here is my file note. So
you could file note it properly. You could do it
on a word document. You could have like an internal
crem that you might manage those things through. But at
the very least. Emailing it to yourself is really helpful.
(07:51):
So obviously having a printed handbook fantastic. But if something's
happening and you're having conversations with people, document them that
to be a waste of time because like you know,
I've never had to do this with you, thank god,
But like if I had to have a serious conversation
with you, Jess, I would send myself an email so
that then I could go back and be like, well,
what did I talk to Jess about the first time?
(08:13):
You know, what did she say about this? So if
there's a second follow up, I can be like, look, Jess,
I documented it the first time, and this is what
we said, this with the outcomes, this is what we've meant,
this is what we haven't met. And I think that
that's really important because time makes things cloudy. So if
time passes and I'm like, oh, yes, I had to
chat to you about this before, and you go, yeah,
(08:34):
what was I meant to do again?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
And you go, oh, I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, unacceptable. Also, there's no way you wouldn't have documented
it your Jess. You would have come to the table.
It's not the point. I'm just using it as an exactly,
but I think reviewing and updating regularly because your team
is going to grow, laws are going to change, Your
policies might need tweaking to stay relevant. And I think
summary of all of that is just have clear document
(09:00):
mened HR policies and if you have them and don't
use them.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
That's great, amazing.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, but I'd prefer you to have them and not
need them, then need them and not have them. Oh
one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
How would you approach building the team when you're making
those first hiring decisions. Obviously you create first choice in.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Me, Yeah, she's on the money team started off on
the best push could done. It wouldn't have done it better. No,
So I have a theory and it's called higher slow, firefast.
Oh it sounds real savage, but we have quite a
recruitment process. If you're listening to this and you've ever
been through it, I apologize, but I also don't because
(09:39):
it means that you can find the right role and
I can find the right fit. So it's about making
sure that there are multiple points of contact. I don't
just like have a coffee catch up with someone and
be like, hey, yes, do you want a job? Like
poor Jess, like you were put through even as my
first hire, like on nine interview interview in person Q
and A what would this look like? How would this work?
(09:59):
I think because I was into content for the business
Bible at that point. I made you go into a
sound booth and like we have that somewhere. Yeah, I
made you record yourself and what you were feeling. Like
that's probably not accepted, not against just a bit weird,
But at the end of the day, bringing somebody into
your team is the biggest commitment ever, Like from my perspective,
(10:23):
it's so scary as well, because like I don't know,
I pay your income, Like that is a massive commitment
and I don't want you to rush that process. And
it's not just about your resume. It's also about how
they bring themselves to the table. What they're like tenacity
is like what their work values, their values, their cultural fit,
(10:44):
their goals. Like so I think using multiple rounds of
interviews is really smart and if possible, involve your team.
So now that we do have a bigger team, whenever
I'm hiring someone new, the first port of call will
be a phone interview with somebody that's not me. Second
call is an interview with me, And if all of
that is going swimmingly, you get invited to an interview
(11:05):
with some of the team members and I'm not there.
And that's purposeful because then you can be like, Jess,
what's that actually like working for THEE what's your work
life balance?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Like?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
You know, what does your weekends look like? You know
what does you know work task allocation look like? How
does team communication go? What's worked from home? Actually you
don't ask all those questions, but then the team can
also work out if you're somebody that they would interact
with consistently on a daily basis. You get a vibe,
you get a feel, and I think that to just
rely on a resume is silly.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
It's very outdated, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
One hundred percent our data? And like Jess, lots of
people applied for roles that you applied for and you
got it and you didn't even have a degree because
you were the right fit. And yeah, have I regretted that,
Maybe a little, but no. But have I regretted that No?
Because you've been here for years now and have been
an integral part of the team. I don't regret that
(11:57):
for a second. So I think it's so important to
do that. But on the flip side, fire fast, I
can tell you right now, if you talk to any
manager who's hired someone you and they've known if it
was a bad fit, they know within the first week.
So it does not mean that they do anything about that, though,
Like you need to nip that in the button, pull
that person aside. Hey Barry, I'm really sorry, this just
(12:19):
isn't working out for you or me. It gives them
the opportunity to go find something that works for them,
and you the opportunity to find the right team member.
Like it can lower team morale having the wrong person
on the team, like it can impact your productivity. It
can even hurt that person in the role because they
might thrive somewhere else. You're impacting their confidence. Yeah, if
they're not good at that job, let them go. Like yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Feel some people might hold on because they feel almost
like a sailure, like if they've made gone, oh I
think I made the right decision, and then they go, oh,
maybe it's not feeling right. Maybe they could go, oh, yeah,
I was so confident or I saw XYZ. Yeah, but
do you think it's fair to say that until you
have someone doing the job in your tea in routine,
Like people can put their best foot forward in an
(13:04):
interview and it just not translate in the way to one.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
And I think that you might look at me and go, Victoria,
that's ruthless, that's awful, Like give them a chance if
you can't show me your best in the first few
weeks of your employment, like what is going on? Like
are you not meant to put your best foot forward
during that period of time? And it probably does sound ruthless,
but at the end of the day, for me, it's
about clarity, it's about respect, it's about being upfront and
(13:30):
professional with that person. And I find that kind of
than dragging it out and firing them in six months.
Like I have interviewed and hired somebody before who had
just got a new role, and I said, why are
you here? Didn't you just say that you have a
new role, And they said, yeah, absolutely, I've been there
for two weeks and it's absolutely not the right fear. Yeah.
(13:51):
I had so much respect for that person because I
was like, really, tell me about that, what does that mean?
And ended up hiring them. They've stayed. It's fantastic. But
I had so much respect because they knew to pull
the trigger early, and they were like, I'm not going
to waste the business's time. I feel like my time's
being wasted.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
The expectations they sat in the interview were not what
it ended up being. Like, I have a lot more
respect for that, and I've also got a lot more
respect for other people that I'm not going to drag
it out. Yeah, it's not fair.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
That feels reasonable to me.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I feel like it does. But you know, on the
flip side, if you just got your new job and
then you find a week later you're not the right fit, doesn't.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, but I guess hr or like you know, making
hiring choices more broadly, you have to take the emotion
out of it a little bit one hundred and before
out right you have to make the decision that's right
for you, right for the team. Because as much as
like in an I Do world, no one would ever
hurt anybody's feelings and everyone would get along and everything
would be perfect.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
See I agree, and I don't agree. So, like, taking
the emotion out of it is important for clear decision making,
and I do that, but then I think it's important
to inject your personality and your ethics and your morals
back in to it to be empathetic. Yeah, one hundred percent.
There is what fair work says you need to do. Right, So, like,
let's say we are terminating somebody, Like, there is what
(15:09):
fair work says, I need to make sure that I
give someone twenty four hours notice before I terminate their role.
I need to offer them a support person all of
that other stuff. But is that the kindest way to
do it? Yeah, probably not. We'll do that as a
bare minimum, But like there are additional things that I
can layer on top of that, like making sure that
I have a very clear process of performance management. So
(15:31):
if somebody isn't performing well, I'm not just going to
go Okay, cool, we're done and I've given them warnings,
but I haven't. I'm going to make sure that my
language is clear, my warnings are clear. I'm going to
make sure that when it comes to that termination process,
I'm clear in giving feedback, because if I'm not giving
that person feedback, I'm not helping them grow in the
next role, and I'm setting them up for failure. And
(15:53):
a lot of the time it's not a personal decision.
It's a technical competency issue and going cool. We've tried X, Y,
and Z and it's just not working. But what can
I do to be the kindest in this situation? Because
it feels like trash but quiet. No one wants that. Yeah,
So I think it's about making sure that you don't
just take all the emotion out of it, because I
(16:14):
think that empathetic leadership needs some level of emotion still
to still have your wits about you. I'm not the devil, Yeah,
do you know what I mean? Your boss? Yeah, like
I am your boss, but also I'm not a dick.
Or maybe I am, but like I try really hard
not to be sometimes. But let's go to a really
quick break. I feel like we're just getting started. After
(16:35):
the break, I'm going to dive into it. I guess
the secret source for keeping your workplace running smoothly everything
from communication, feedback, and building a culture that people actually
want to stick around for. So stay tuned.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Alright, everyone, we're that vid. We've talked about policies and hiring,
but once you've got the right people in place, what's
the next step for making sure that everything does run smoothly?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Culture?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Culture, culture without ah at the end.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Culture got to make sure you have good culture. Culture
is so important. But before you get culture, I feel
like everybody throws this term of like, oh, culture is
so important at work? Is culture that important? If you
have shitty communication?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Is shitty communication symptom of.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Bad culture exactly. So the first thing I want to
talk about is communication. Great. It's funny because on our
Friday Drinks episode, yes, we're always like, oh, we've got
a dilemma, and what said ninety nine point nine nine
percent of the time, Oh, if you just communicated. Communication
is that glue that sticks cell workplace together, Like it
(17:46):
is something that you need to have open and flowing.
But then also realize, if a change is being made
often don't take it personally. So I think that sometimes
people will go, oh my god, my boss decided to
implement like a rule where we only get forty five
minutes of our lunch break. Why are we taking this
so personally? Like it's just a rule, someone's broken it great,
(18:07):
No aries like pick it up, move forward, like we've
just changed the way that we're working. But without good communication,
where places start full part, things start to get tricky
and hard and consistent and clear communication is going to
keep you on track. It's going to mean that you
stay aligned, but it's also going to reduce friction, and
it's going to create an environment where everyone feels heard
(18:28):
and informed. And on top of things, you've got four
seas Jessica and I've talked about them before on the podcast.
You've got clarity, consistency, context, and collaboration and to have
effective communication, you need to meet all four of these things.
And it sounds lame, but having a framework makes life
so much easier as a leader because so often I'll
(18:51):
be like, but I told her in my head and
then realize that maybe I didn't meet the four seas
and that probably was an effective communication. I was just
busy and trying to get rid of it. So clarity
is obviously being really specific, being really concise, like not
saying things like oh, yes, we need to do better, great,
saying something like okay, to do better, we need to
(19:12):
deliver that draft by next Friday at four pm. Yeah,
like being really clear. The next is consistency, So staying
regular with your updates, making sure that things are shared
meetings via email or via Slack. Repetition means that everybody
is aligned. Context is important. If you tell me to
do something and I don't know why or when or
(19:33):
where a haw, like, how am I going to do that?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Like?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Oh, Jess, can you fix that project? What? Projects?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And context is key even in just like the urgency.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Like one hundred percent, like oh, the client doesn't like it,
can you change it?
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
What? Like we need some context. So for example, instead
of just asking, oh, can you make some changes because
the client doesn't like it, saying the client asked for
revisions to better align with their branding, the colors a
bit off, could you please update it? They also would
prefer to feature instead of be yeah, okay, no worries.
Like Also, if you're providing context like oh, the client
(20:07):
just didn't like it, that feels personal. Yeah, like ill, David,
we are not making things personal. We're taking the personal
out of it. Like clients can be frustrating. If any
of my clients are listening, turn this off right now,
your old delights. But it can be very frustrating sometimes
when a client gives you feedback not effectively communicated, not
effectively communicated, and you can't manage that. Yeah, so manage
(20:29):
your team. So I know that you have had this historically,
just not at the moment, thank god, where a client
has just said oh, I don't like it, I want
to make changes, and I've had to then go back
to you, Jess and be like, oh, the client doesn't
like it, I need to then communicate with you. Look,
the client has said they don't like it, they haven't
given me a lot of context. Unfortunately, this is the feedback.
Have a look at the emails. These are the communications
(20:51):
I've had with them before, and like you and I
have had to sit down and decipher maybe what they
meant because we haven't been able to do that. But
if I said, oh, they just didn't like it, just
moved on, you think that I'm being a little bit flippant,
Whereas the situation is a bit deeper than that. So
when you have context, great share it. But if you
don't have context, also share that you have no context
(21:12):
of us a yeah, and provide as much information on
the fact that you're in the dark as well.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Is really important. And I think so many times issues
arise because I'll be like, well, Jess, you didn't tell me,
and then you go, oh, well I wasn't told either,
and I go well, why didn't you tell me that
you weren't told? It just becomes a whole thing and
it doesn't need to be. And then the last one
is collaboration. So we're creating a space for two way dialogue,
which I have sadly done in my business, where you
(21:40):
give me feedback as much as I'm giving you feedback,
and it's actually a really good thing. So I'm asking you, guys, well,
what's your perspective on this decision I'm making, and vice versa.
So sometimes I'm humbled and I'm like, I've got this
really great idea. It's called twenty twenty thrive, right, so
we're going to name our whole thing twenty twenty thrive.
You know what. My team came back and said, looks great,
(22:01):
But Victoria, in text, it looks like you've said two
zero tooth thrive. What's to zero tooth thrive? Yeah, sounds
good when I speak it. So twenty twenty thrive slay
when you put it on a heading looks terrible and
I needed to be humbled. So we're not using that
as aggressively. We'll use it on the podcast, but it
can't be a heading for something because it just doesn't translate. Yeah,
(22:25):
can you imagine if my team were just agreeable.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Life would be easy but hard great, dear.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Victoria, that's and it really float everybody's vote like it
would have been awful. Right, So I think collaboration making
sure that people feel safe to challenge, but also they
feel confident to share their opinions, and that can be
harder done. Then said, yeah, you really have to cultivate
a safe smuch. Yes, because I know in my business, thankfully,
(22:54):
you guys can be like Victoria, that is a terrible idea,
and I'll be like fair. Whereas I'm sure there are
people listening to this. If they told their boss that
something was a terrible idea, they'd be like, get out
of my office, or even worse, you know what I mean.
So you've got to read the room. So what I'm
feeling is great. Communication isn't just about talking. It's about
ensuring that everybody understands, they feel heard, they know next steps.
(23:18):
I feel like, when in doubt, over communicate rather than
assuming everyone's on the same page. Because when they say,
when you assume, you make an ass out of you
and me, You've said that one time before, I believe, well, first,
what about.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
When things aren't going as planned though, or if you
need to maybe recalibrate the way that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
It's almost like communication is key here, Jess. Really it's
actually crazy. But I'm also going to say feedback, communicate feedback.
The number four rule is make sure that you were
using a framework for effective communication and effective feedback. It
matters for so many different reasons.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
You might think by just delivering some feedback and walking off,
that's enough, and it's just really not.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
So.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Feedback is one of the most powerful tools for people
for personal and professional growth. And I think sometimes even
framing it and being like, hey, like and thank god
I haven't had to do this, I feel like I've
given you feedback that you haven't liked before, but it's worked. Well. Hey, Jess,
I'm going to give you some feedback. And I'm aware
that this might not be the nicest thing to hear,
(24:20):
but I hope you know that when I'm telling you this,
it's coming from a place of love and wanting you
to be better and do better. And I know you
can as opposed to me being critical, Right, And then
you can go, oh, okay, you've kind of braced yourself
for the feedback, but also you know that I'm aware
that that could be a dick thing to share. I
don't want you to immediately go v said that she
(24:42):
hated my thing, and that can has all in the delivery.
When feedback is done correctly, it improves performance. It improves
like the strength of your team, team dynamics. It builds trust,
like I think that good feedback coming from somebody who
wants you to do well a gift, whereas some people
think that just being rude or being like well, I
(25:04):
don't like it, Like, yeah, that's not feedback, that's opinion.
And you need to decipher the difference between personal opinion
and feedback as well. I think that's something that a
lot of people don't do well. They will deliver it
and be like, oh, I think that's terrible, and then
it's like, well, actually doesn't meet the brief like you
might not like this. You know, it happens a lot
in marketing, like people will say that they don't like something,
(25:27):
but it's actually personal opinion, and then you realize there's
a lot of research behind why it's presented that way.
Have a think about how you're delivering it and where
this feedback is coming from on the flip side. If
you're giving bad feedback, poor feedback, or even no feedback
at all, it leaves people a bit confused. They're like,
I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know how
to do this. They're unmotivated. They might be a little
bit resentful, and I think that is a really awful
(25:51):
position to be in. It doesn't help for the culture, naysaka,
and we're all about the culture one hundred percent. So
this is where you want to use a frameworking again,
and my favorite framework is the situation impact action framework.
So if you're giving feedback, let's do a little roleplay example.
So you're going to describe what happened, so the situation
(26:12):
focusing only on the facts. So example, in the last meeting,
you spoke over Sarah while she was sharing her thoughts.
Sarah doesn't exist while she was sharing her ideas. And
then you're going to explain the impact. So we're not
going to talk about how on I just don't think
that's very enough. No no, no, no, no, no, cut that out.
(26:32):
We don't care about that. You're then going to explain
why it matters and how it affected the team. Or
the project, so it really interrupted her flow and made
it harder for her to fully explain her point, and
then she just seemed a bit hesitant to speak up again. Valid. Valid.
Then what's the action, So we're not just going to
be like you spoke over somebody made her feel bad
(26:54):
and drop the mic and walk out. Yeah, what behavior
do we want modeled in the future. Look, let's just
make sure that everyone gets to finish their thoughts before
we jump in. I know you're really excited about that
and really enthusiastic, So maybe just take a quick pause
to check if anyone is like still speaking, make sure
they're done before you're jumping in. Great, really simple. When
(27:14):
you're really simple, really easy, it's not about personal opinion,
which I think is where feedback gets really cloudy. Yeah,
it sets you out for success, and they're probably going
to go, yeah, you're right, that will help me.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, it's a simple thing. They know exactly what they
need to do, no harm, no file, they can fix
it for an extra.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
And it's funny because that example would literally never happen
with you, Jessica. It would happen with me. I speak
over everybody I do, and you are like the thoughtful
one that goes, oh, I have a point and they
raise my hand. Yeah, like you put your hand up
or something, so like, that's a terrible example. If you
were imagining Jessica in it, just imagine that that was
being delivered to me, because I would feel much better
(27:54):
if someone was like, oh, you did this thing and
it impacted somebody else in the future, you need to
do this. I'll be like, Okay, cool, no worry. Yeah,
Whereas if somebody was giving me feedback and they're like,
stop talking over jess I'd be like, oh, sorry.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
And you feel bad about yourself and that doesn't help anything.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
It doesn't help anyone or anything, because then I don't
even realize when I did that. Was it at lunch
or was it at dinner? Like do I do it
all the time, Like, yeah, we're nipping it in the butt?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Can I say yeah? I also think it's really important
when using this framework to think about who you're delivering
to in the way that they lack to receive feedback.
And I think a particularly relevant example is exactly what
you were just saying with how you interrupt. For you,
it's because of your neurodiversity, and I think I'm.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Glad I have an excuse.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Yeah, But I think it's also like really important when
we're talking about like, obviously this is a great broad framework,
but people are so unique and the way that I
receive feedback, the way you receive feedback, I think getting
to know your team, and I feel like we're going
to maybe talk about this a little bit in about
five seconds.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Maybe I'm really ahead? Am I hot rut?
Speaker 3 (28:53):
But I think like that's a really important thing, And
you know, acknowledging that certain behaviors may be results of
neurodiversity or past experience or things like that as well.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
And I know that talking over people can be perceived
as being incredibly rude, right, but I think we're at
a point in our team. I'm not saying it's acceptable.
I do try my best, please, I'm not saying that
that's okay, But I think that when I do that
accidentally now still people aren't like Victoria thinks she's more important,
Like I think that because we fully comprehend each other
(29:26):
and I've shared that, people are like, oh, she's just
so excited about the next point. Yeah, And sometimes the
teams like they sit down, like go back two steps
please go back two steps, because we're actually not talking
about that yet. We're still not done here. And I
think that that can be a really good way of
managing it as well. Like a lot of people might
take personal offense, be like, oh my god, I can't
believe Victoria's spoke over me again in that meeting. It's
(29:50):
not because I don't respect you. I've promised you that.
And I think that having that context is really really important.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I completely agree, and I think it filters really nicely
into creating great team culture. How do you make sure
that you know, whatever business company culture you're building is
something that people actually want to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
You've actually just got to post on social media all
the time. Oh yeah, I've got a post like really
attractive pictures of yourself and your team, like and your
team loving you.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
That's how to do good culture. End the episode there.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
In fact, do you know what's funny about that is
I have met so many people who have been like, oh, actually,
our internal team culture is nothing like you see online.
And I think that's a very common thing. I think
it's a very common thing for businesses to be posting
online about this and thinking that culture comes from what
the content they share, And I think it's important to
point out because I'm so aware of that. Like, I
(30:43):
think you and I can agree. I don't even have
to agree to this, but like our team will probably
be like, yeah, what you see online is exactly how
we are in person, because it's just what naturally happens.
But I think building a culture starts from internal and
it starts from the top. So like, if I'm not
role modeling the behaviors that I expect, how do I
(31:05):
expect other people doing them? And if we're not doing
them internally, how are we expecting people to see them
on the outside. How are we expecting to talk about
how great we are if we're not actually great internally.
I can't think of anything more mortifying than being like, yeah,
I really respect my team and then my team in
the background rolling their eyes like ill. That gives me
the ick so hard. So if we think about the
(31:26):
best workplace culture we can, we're going to imagine people
are super engaged and supported and they're genuinely happy to
show up, and that kind of energy doesn't just happen.
And I guess the opposite is a workplace where tension
and competition end up taking over and nobody feels valued,
and then everyone just waits for the countdown five o'clock
(31:46):
when they can run.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Out of their laptop, shut bag on back.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
And bad culture drains teams, and it fuels turnover, and
it kills productivity. And I mean a thriving culture. It
doesn't just boost morale. It actually turns your workplace into
a place that people want to stay and grow and
do their best. And I'm very lucky that I used
to work as a culture and engagement consultant and so
I work on a say, stay and thrive model. So
(32:12):
that's my concept that I work on. And if you
can meet all three of these things, I think you're
well on the way to having a good team culture
internally and externally. And whether you're an employer this applies obviously,
But if you're an employee, having a think about this.
So I want people to be saying good things about
my business when I'm not around. You don't need to
say it in front of me. That doesn't matter. But
(32:32):
like imagine Jess, You're at a barbecue on the weekend
and someone says, Jess, where do you work? And you say,
I work a cheese of the money. Are you going
to go, oh, I work at cheese all the money
and they go how is it? And then you go whatever,
let's not talk about work, or you go, oh my gosh,
I love my job. I do this, I do that right,
So I want people saying good things. The second is stay,
So that's about tenure and having low turnover. Are people
(32:55):
incentivized and want to stay with the company, Like, are
they in a position where they want to stay for
the longevity? Do they see a career there, do they
see that they are respected and you know, enjoying it,
or are they looking for a new job. Yeah, So
I want to meet those two. And then the third
one is the strive component. And I feel like this
strive component it is something that you can't pay people for.
(33:19):
You can pay people all the money in the world,
but this is about cultural fit and hiring the right
people because if you have hired the right people, they
will strive for your business. They will go above and beyond.
They won't have to be asked to go above and beyond,
because if you have a good culture, you're not asking
people to stay late. But you'll notice things happening in
the background. Like they're saying good things about your business.
(33:41):
They are you know, promoting it, they're you know, staying
in their role and they're going above and beyond because
they feel respected and they feel like, you know, they're
really contributing to the greater good. They understand that there's
effective and clear leadership. They understand that there is you know,
career opportunities for them on the table or you know what.
Not everyone's looking for career opportunities. Some people just want
(34:02):
a steady job and that's cool too, But like they
understand that their position is respected. And I think that
that's what culture looks like in action. So those three
things are going to contribute to having highly engaged employees.
And to go back to me being a culture and
engagement consultant, we know that businesses that have engaged employees
(34:23):
have fifty percent higher shareholder return than businesses that have
disengaged employees. Are crazy, So just by focusing on culture,
you are impacting the bottom line of your business. Yeah,
And like I could go into it for days. We
don't have time, but I could go into it for
days about how your team are what makes your business successful.
(34:46):
And that's why often when I'm interviewed or I'm talking
to people and they're like, you've done so well, and
I'm I guess it's not me, it's my team. I'm
not even flipping it off me. I'm like, I wouldn't
be where I would be today without a solid team.
But my solid team comes from being respected and having
that back and forth relationship. And I mean, to me,
good culture is the difference between a workplace people endua
(35:09):
and a workplace people thrive in. And so I think
when you create a culture of the lines with your
team's values and makes them feel connected, you're not just
building a team, You're kind of building loyalty and creativity
and success. They can still leave though, because we had
a team and believe more than a year ago now.
(35:30):
And I think it's so important to understand where you sit.
So like, obviously I've done say stay and strive and
stays great, But like, what if you outgrow the role,
that doesn't mean that you become disengaged with a culture.
If somebody in my business has outgrown a role, For example,
Gabby in our business, so I could talk about her
because she loved this. She worked in marketing in our business.
(35:53):
She started as EA worked her way up, did marketing,
and then God offered an epic marketing role at the AFL.
You can't compete with that. Yeah, so what am I
going to do? Be mad about that or be grateful
that I got to be along the journey of that. Yes,
I loved the fact that we got to be a
part of her journey. I was sad that she was leaving,
but now I'm so proud that she's on the money
(36:14):
helped her get there.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Yeah, slay Absolutely. I feel like those five rules set
a really good foundation for HR and for managing people
in general, not even just from like a business owner perspective,
but also just anyone in the workplace. You know, these
are the things that you want to be looking for.
They should be the standard that we're holding our employers to.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah. And if you have listened to this and you're like,
I'm not say, I'm not stay, I'm not strived, look
for a new job, I'm sorry to the employers listening,
but like, if you're not doing those three things, you're
not engaged, and it's good for them that you're going
to move on, but also it's great for you because
you're going to find somewhere that you actually feel valued totally, absolutely,
And I think if you're running your own business or
(36:54):
managing a team where you're just trying to be a
better cowork or friend at work, these rules are universal.
It's all about setting clear expectations and fostering open, honest
communication and building a culture where people actually want to
show up the big one. Oh, I think we've done
for today. But before we wrap up, Jess, in the
new year, Business Bible's having a glow up.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
We love to see it, we do.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
We're giving Business Bible its own dedicated feed again. That
is right. It is getting a revamp. There are some
really fun things planned and I know you're going to
love it. So make sure you hit the link in
our show notes to subscribe so you don't miss a thing.
Because Business Bible episodes are no longer going to be
on the shees on the Money feed. Whether you're already
a loyal Business Bible fan, thank you, or you're new
(37:37):
to the series, this is the perfect time to jump in.
Big things are coming and I cannot wait to share
with you what we have been working on behind the scenes. Oh,
it's so exciting. I'll be hitting subscribe at up. I
love that. You better because it's twenty twenty five next year, Jessica,
we love it. We're going to use that in audio
all the time.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Have a good rest of your week.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
God bye. The advice shared on She's on the Money
is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances.
She's on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and
should not be relied upon to make an investment or
financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product,
(38:22):
read the PDS TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored
towards your needs. Victoria Divine and She's on the Money
are authorized representatives of Money. Sheper Pty Ltd a BN
three two one six four nine two seven seven zero
eight AFSL four five one two eight nine
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