Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
He served at the Pentagon as an army jag. He
graduated from Notre Dame and has two law degrees from
Boston University and Georgetown University. He's been practicing law for
over thirty years. He's your family's personal attorney. It's time
for the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hello, and welcome to the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney, and you have
found the place where we talk about a state planning,
elder law, real estate and business law, which you can
sum up as kind of like retirement law. Basically, if
you're retired, if you want to be retired, if you
know anybody who's retired, if you're thinking about being retired,
(00:43):
if you realize that you'll never be retired, no, no, no,
You'll be pushing the stone up the hill and it's
going to roll back down every single day. That's just
the life you've got. Anyway, Well, even if you think
about retirement, that would be fine. Now's the time.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Give us a call.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Six one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
That's sixty one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
If you'd like to get your question, comment or concern
on the air, especially if it has to do with wills, trust, probate.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
You know, a lot of people worried.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Well, I have to say that a lot of people
not as worried as they ought to be. We're in
an environment right now where the cost of care is
going through the roof. We're all worried about avoiding probate
or something silly like that. And what's the point of
avoiding probate if you broke I don't get it anyway,
six six seven, seven four, twenty four, twenty four. You
(01:41):
have a question, comment or concern, we'll get you on
the air. You know, a lot of folks just ran
into it again yesterday. We're doing a breakfast club now,
you know, because we got some feedback that, hey, how
come you don't have any more? You know, I'm working.
I'm still working. That's a that's a reality for a
(02:01):
lot of us, isn't it still working? And the question was, well,
your workshops are at two o'clock. And my first reaction is, well,
I got a whole bunch of workshops at six o'clock.
And generally if we do a two o'clock, we'll also
do a six and at least once a month. We're
doing them in the evening at a fine dining establishment
(02:24):
known as Russ's. And we do them on the weekends too.
We do that, and so I thought, well, you know,
what's more fun than having breakfast and dealing with elder laws.
So anyway, stay planning and whatnot. So we started that.
That was our first one yesterday, very well attended, very good,
very good group. I'm thinking we're going to have to
(02:46):
do those on a regular basis. So you know, most
of the time you get these invites, you know, come
to have your rubber steak and what have you. Well,
we don't do that. Heck no, we go to the
home of the onion ring.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
If you can find a better onion ring than Russ's,
bring it by and we'll do you. We'll give you
a free estate plan, that's right, a free estate plan
if you can come up with a better onion ring
than Russ's, and of course I get to decide if
it's better.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
So there you are.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Fairness and everything. That's our that's our model. But anyway,
it was it was really nice seeing seeing the folks
come out yesterday for the for the workshop, yeah, it
was just a weekend. But but just you know, the
usual uh Billy Joel says, the regular crowd shuffles in.
But it was regular folks, you know, normal people who
(03:37):
we get to a certain time and we're like, gee,
maybe I ought to do something, Maybe I ought to
do something about this stuff. And the Three Secrets Workshop,
which I'm not going to tell you what the secrets are,
although I have to say that for regular listeners when
they come to one of our events and we tell
them what the Three Secrets are, it's like, oh, yeah, okay,
(03:58):
well I was expecting some thing. Well it's a little
bit different, but not much not much different than what
you hear here here prefer a little bit different context,
and so I don't not saying anybody who's complaining exactly,
but still in all, come to a Three Secrets workshop,
find out what it's all about. And mostly at the workshop,
(04:21):
what we're doing is we're starting you on the path
actually getting something done or double checking that what you
already have is going to be sufficient. So go to
the website Davidcarrier Law dot com. We also have our
AI expert on duty twenty four seven three sixty five
in other words, all the time. The AI expert on
(04:43):
the website really helps you navigate the website. And I
don't want to say it answers questions exactly, but you
can talk to it. You know, it's one of these
AI things, and you can you can actually talk to
it and ask it questions and it will give responses.
I don't want to say their answers are certainly not
legal advice. But a lot of people, thousands now have
(05:07):
found it. At least that's the feedback we're getting from
the thousands of people who've used it. It has been useful.
It has been a good deal, much better than trying
to go through the website. And like I think, our
website is pretty well done still in all if you
want the video on what do my kids do now
that they're the trustee, right, we have a number of
(05:30):
those because you know, our commitment is to making sure
that your estate plan actually works well. Part of your
estate plan actually working means that when you are no
longer with us, when you're singing in the invisible choir, right,
it's your turn. The kids have some idea what's going on?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
It's not that you don't leave them high and dry
and like, hey, here's a stack of moldy papers, good
luck to you. We don't do that. Instead, every year,
twice a year we have our our trust d Workshop,
Beneficiary Workshop. How to be a good trust d, what
it means to be a beneficiary, how the trust works,
(06:14):
all that kind of thing, And we've got recordings of those. Yeah,
we do record them so that they're always available. But
instead of having to poke around trying to find it,
you can just ask the AI and it will answer any.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Particular questions you have.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
But we'll also can also direct you to to the videos,
and we've.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Got a whole.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
We've got a whole library of videos on all kinds
of things, how to be the trustee, what is how
is the part of attorney work?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You know?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
What documents are there? What do they mean?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
All that kind of stuff is all is all available
no cost on the website. You don't get breakfast at
Russ's if you go to the website, though, and you
replicate the experience on the website. So I suggest the
suggests coming to one of the three secret workshop, which
we do at all of the offices in Norton Shores
(07:09):
up there in Norton shores over in Holland, down in
Portage and of course in Grand Rapids. So and we
do them on a regular basis that this is not
the sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Uh, you can't.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
You can't give the excuse, oh, well, they just had
a workshop, there won't be another one for three months.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Wrong.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
We're doing the workshops at all the locations every month,
and sometimes multiple times during the month. And besides, which
driving the Grand Rapids in that hard anyway, and then
we're doing them weekly. So it's really it's really not
hard to get to a workshop. We'd love to love
to see you there. So let's see, yesterday we had
(07:49):
you know, we had the usual you know, folks who
are who are retired, about to be retired, then retired
for a while, and you know, trying to put things
together at the workshop. I can't tell you that at
the workshop, and I wouldn't at the workshop that oh
we're going to design your plan there. That doesn't that
doesn't happen. But you start, we do, go through the
(08:11):
components and we get your set up for the for
the next step. Most folks, you know, listeners, you kind
of get it, but most folks have no idea that
the trusts usually don't work, and they don't work because
there was no follow through.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
A lot of people do these trusts.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
They don't put anything in them, or they put the
house in it and then they move, but they never
put the new house in it, or they refinance, or
they do a home equity line or credit all these things.
I got asked yesterday about the Ladybug deed, and of
course it's the Lady Bird deed or the or the
transfer on death deed, which people think is a solution
(08:53):
and it's a tool, you know, that's really I would
say that's one of the big but it's one of
the big points we make at the workshop is that
tools like beneficiary designations, putting kids on the deed, Ladybird,
all these things that you've heard of. It's like will
(09:14):
they avoid probate? Yeah, but there are other consequences to them,
tax consequences, frequently, family disharmony. There's all kinds of things
that people do that make the situation worse. And if
you and it's because and I don't know who you blame,
but people say, oh, my uncle just did this or
(09:36):
my friends just did that, and it was fine. And
the problem with those kinds of stories. Is there are
lots of true stories like that, right, There are a
lot of true stories of people getting away with it,
you know, just doing this or just doing that. I'm
not saying it never happens, but you never hear the
other side of it, which is kind of you know,
(09:58):
the people who come to see me where it blew up,
where it was a disaster, where you know, it fractured
the family, where somebody hung on to everything and they
were supposed to distribute it, or just the ambiguity of
not knowing what it was that mom and dad actually
wanted and you don't know because they never told you.
They just put people's names on various things, and you know,
(10:21):
it's that kind of thing that you know, you find
out about it these at these workshops. So anyway, just
to explain the difference between a tool and a plan,
they're different things, right, box of tools is not a
finished project, right. A box of tools is the way
you get to the finished project. But if you don't
(10:42):
have any plan and just say, hey, honey, you know
I would like you to build me a table, Well, yeah, honey,
there's the saw and there's the hammer. I got some
sandpaper around here somewhere too. I guess I'm done.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Tools are not a plan. You've been listening to the
David Carrier Show. Oh, I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
This hour of the David Carrier Show is pro bono,
so call in now at seven seven four twenty four,
twenty four. This is the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Welcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. You may notice we're playing music
from Kiss. Those are the guys that got all dressed up.
Do you remember them back in the day. But one
of them died this week as freely died, So we're
honoring Kiss this week. So this is a Sunday of
(11:38):
Kiss anyway. Six one six seven then four twenty four
twenty four. That's six one, six seven seven four twenty four.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
To twenty four.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
That's the number to call if you have any question,
comment or concern. Let's get right to the emails. Boy,
we're getting to the emails early this week. You know,
I was going to talk about the I was thinking
anyway about talking about you know, national demonstrations because no
kings right and all that well, it's been two hundred
and fifty years since we had a real rebellion against them,
(12:08):
and now we just got some politicians who are unhappy
with the way things are going. So yeah, yeah, yeah,
and uh, of course they flamed out. I don't know
what did the did the checks not clear for the
paid protesters, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I don't know. Oh, and we got Scott on the line. Hello, Scott,
thanks for rescuing me.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Hey, mister carrier.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Uh, I hope, I hope you're having a good Sunday
in this rainy sunday. But uh, quick.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Quickly, well, you know, you know, I got I gotta
tell you, I've got a lot of trial and tribulation.
My son is out helping with the UH with the marathon,
you know, volunteering at the marathon, and of course great yeah,
my wife uh piled three raincoats on him and uh
and all the rest. But so which of course, probably
he wear a T shirt instead.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You know what I mean. Yeah, go ahead, Scott, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
For our O.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
No, no, no, that's good. That's good to that's good
that you instill that sense of UH supporting the community
and the kids.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So that's right.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Support that I do have lots of questions. I'm not
gonna ask one today, and that that is and it's
a my aunt. My aunt is doing a project on
her house that requires a permit, okay, And and the
inspector says, unless you are on the deed, you cannot
(13:32):
you know, help out, shall we say? Aunt something that
requires a permit for her son. She did a ladybird
deed last year. I didn't advise it, but she did.
And so she put all her kids in this lady
bird deed. Her her kid my cousin could actually help
her on this project, even though I kind of consultant help,
(13:52):
you know, give him information. But is it would he
officially be considered I'm the deed and it's a lady
bird deed for him to actually help her in this
project that requires or permit because she's not going to
do the work. But uh, you know, her my cousin could.
But the inspector says, only if he's on the deed.
(14:13):
And I'm just curious, does a Ladybird ded give him
that quote unquote on the deed authority or is that
I just don't know how that works.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yeah, this is the problem on the deed is not
a legal term. On the deed is what people say,
whether it's a whether it's a joint tenancy, whether it's
tenants in common join tendency with the rights of survivorship,
or these or these ladybird deeds, and there is no
So let's say, let's say you buy something on land contract. Okay,
(14:46):
I'm going to give you an example that's different but
the same. So you buy on land contract, which means
that you're not on the deed, but you have a
contract to buy the place to get the deed when
you finish making pain.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Okay. Now, the way the law.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Looks at that is your you have what they call
equitable title. In other words, when you buy on a
land contract, the idea is.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
You're like the owner.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Okay, you have so you can take the principal residence exemption,
so you can deduct the interest that you're paying on
the land contract, so that you you're locking in the
you're locking in the what you call the state equalized value,
you know, the whole capping the taxable value. Right, So
you're doing all those things when you buy on land contract.
(15:41):
And the theory is you have equitable title, but you're
not on any deed. There's no deed, okay, So when
you put someone on the deed of the various kinds
of deeds that there are, then it can be it
can be kind of well what does it mean exactly?
(16:02):
And I think you're exactly right. Because with the transfer
on death deed, the so called Ladybird deed, which is
named after lbj's wife, widow, you know, Lady Bird Johnson,
because she had the She led the court case down
in Texas that established it. But Michigan had it back
(16:22):
in the eighteen forties. I mean, we've had it right along.
It's just like it became popular over the last twenty
years or so. And there's no transfer. See, with a
land contract, the idea is there's a transfer when you
do the land contract, not when you do the deed.
With the Ladybird deed, there's no transfer when you do
(16:43):
the deed until the person who can revoke the transfer dies,
all right, Because once you do a Ladybird ded you
don't have an ownership interest, you don't have a possessory interest.
You just get the property or share of the property
and some when mom dies. So it's I can't imagine
(17:06):
that Anybody who understood what was actually going on would say, oh, yeah,
you don't need to.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Permit because you're on the deed. See.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
The idea is, you don't want to stop people from
going to handy andy buying some stuff and putting in
like plugs and you know, and renovating their houses. You
don't want to stop that, So you don't need to
permit for a lot of things that otherwise would need
to permit for because it's your own house. But this
isn't your cousin's house, right, It's not going to be
(17:37):
his house till after mom dies, and even then he
only has to share with with all the siblings, which is,
you know, scorpions in a bottle as far as I'm concerned,
you know, the the last man standing circular firing squad.
It's just but okay, I know people do it, and
you know, and the and the kids made the consequences
of it.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
Yeah, so, and I guess how you fast forward to
the relatively that I appreciate that clarific patient. But so
they are going to pull a permit, and my aunt
pulled the permit. But of course it says that no
one else can do work on it. Except her, And
so I'm just thinking, well, it's a family member doing
it for for, you know, his mom. But the inspector
(18:19):
is kind of like him. Less he's on the deed,
he can't do the work on the house. And so
I was just kind.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Of, yeah, the inspector's correct. Okay, Yeah, the inspector's correct.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
She can't have her son do the work for her.
I mean the permit to be.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Well, she can't have her son to do the work,
that's right.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
I mean, I mean, look, I haven't done the research
on this thing directly, but I don't understand. It's like, oh,
you know, when mom dies, I'm on the will, so
I'm gonna get It's like, no.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
No, that's the whole point.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
It's only owners of real estate who get to improve
their own real estate thing. No, we don't infringe on that, right,
But that doesn't mean I can let somebody else do it. It
means I can't let anybody else do it. It's only
the owner of the property. That's the point. Because you
have an ownership interest, presumably you don't want it to
burn down. You can't just delegate that. And a ladybird
(19:18):
ded doesn't transfer any kind of ownership until after the
person dies, and in fact, the mom can snatch back
the house anytime she wants. So you know, that's the
beauty of the lady. That's what everybody likes about the
ladybird deed.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
If you're asking me, yeah, yeah, I say out at.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Home plate okay, not your own plate.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Okay, Scott, thanks for giving me. Oh and the music,
you bet you. You've been listening to the David Carrier Show.
I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney, and we've got
AJ from Grand Rapids on the line.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Coming up next.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
David's got the how too you're looking for Just call
seven seven twenty four twenty four. This is the David
Carrier Show.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Wellcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. Now's the time give us a call.
Sixty one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
That's six one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
Get your right through to the switchboard and we'll get
you on. We've got AJ on the line. Good morning, AJ.
(20:27):
Welcome to the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Morning David. Thanks, Hey, I have an uncle who died recently.
He had a brokerage account with a national brokerage firm
well known UH. He opened the account in twenty nineteen
and on his transfer on death named his sister. Then
in twenty twenty one he revised the designation and named
(20:55):
his sister to get fifty percent and his brother to
get fifty percent, and the new form was sent to
the brokerage firm. But we've discovered that the firm is
saying that the new beneficiary designation was not put on
his account and the only one they have is the
initial one from twenty nineteen. I don't know, I'm not
(21:22):
quite sure what to do. They're saying that they don't
have the new one and that they're going to go
by the old one. Do you have any thoughts about that?
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Yeah, so this happens from time to time. Everybody loses stuff,
from the irs to Charles Schwam Okay most of the time,
kind of stuck with it. But but if you know
when it happened, if you know what the date was
when it happened, if they go back, because with these
(21:57):
big place insurance companies would have you right, everything gets
logged in all right, and We've had it happen on
a couple of time, a couple of occasions, just exactly
what you're talking about. And we managed to convince someone
at the brokerage or the it was insurance companies both
times to go back and basically look at the tape.
(22:20):
But we were able, you know, because we keep records
on all this stuff, we were able to tell them,
you know, when it was that the document would have
come in, and in two occasions they were able to
go back to when it should have come in and
they found it. Because they scan everything in as things
come in, and there's a you've got to have somebody
(22:43):
at the insurance company or brokeray or wherever it is,
who is willing to go the extra mile because generally
what you get is what you got, which is we
check the records.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And nothing in there.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
But they should be they should have a system where
everything that comes in. Now, everything that comes in is
supposed to be shot you know, you're supposed to shoot
it over to whatever account it's supposed to go to. Right,
But there's a general tape, you know, there's a general intake.
Now it's been what five years, is that right?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Twenty one I think you said quarters changed four years.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, okay, yeah, so a significant period of time. Like
for example, you may think that when you send something
certified mail, right and it's oh, it's got the numbers
on it, I'm good to go. Well, the post office
only keeps that for one hundred and twenty days. Oh
you know, you're not making any permanent record there. But
(23:40):
at the at these at these companies, though they tend
to that tends to be a persistent thing. But you know,
technology changes, it's not easy to find this stuff. But
what I would suggest now, is brother not agreeing to
share or what's going on with that?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, he's saying no, the sister.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
The sister says, I'll just give the brother fifty percent
of what I get. She'll just give it to him.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
How old is she she?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
How old is she?
Speaker 4 (24:17):
How old are she's she's ninety one and he's eighty six.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Okay, So the problem that you've got with people of
that age received And how much money are we talking about.
I mean, if it's fifty cents, it's no big deal.
But no, we're talking about a significant amount of money.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Yeah, it's about five hundred thousand dollars that total. Yeah,
so it would be fifty.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Okay, So let me let me sort of tell you
how we would do that kind of thing. We never
give out money through the beneficiary designation. We always designate
the trust. So any recipient doesn't receive the cashy money
or the investment or whatever, they get a trust with
money inside. What that means is if you're eighty six
(25:03):
years old and you need long term care, which means Medicaid, right,
you didn't just throw two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
out the window or to the.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Nursing home or what have you.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Now, the problem is if sister just go and you know,
that's kind of is what it is right now. I mean,
you can still save they're single, you can save about
half half of the money. If they do need long
term care, you can still do stuff. But here's the problem.
If sister gives brother the two fifty, right, she's going
to be treated as if she gave away two hundred
(25:35):
and fifty thousand dollars. Are you with me on this
just as a gift? So now she's going to have,
you know, a very long penalty period at what about
twenty months about two and a half years, she won't
be able to qualify because she gave money away two
years anyway, The point is that the way to handle
(25:58):
something like this, given their age, right, given the ages,
so that she doesn't suffer that penalty, would be to
go to go to probate court and get what's called
a protective order. You can this is a one off,
so we're not going through probate, we're not doing the
inventory in the accounting and get all the errors involved
and all the.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Rest of it.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
There's this process where if you have a situation like this,
where it's a limited situation, we just need some clarity here,
then you can ask the court for what's called a
protective order. And it's a very kind of a general thing.
It's like, hey, judge, please ignow you know. And there's
(26:39):
nobody on the other side, obviously because nobody's against it.
But the idea would be to say, hey, judge, this
thing got lost, all right, and we filled it out,
and we know we filled it out because we've I'm
guessing you've got a copy.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Of this somewhere, right, I have it? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Yeah, So you say right, so you say, hey, it
should have been done like this. We send it in
et cetera, cetera. And I shouldn't have had half a million.
I should have had two fifty. My brother should have
had two fifty. Okay, But you know, even that is
one of those things where you want to dive deep
(27:19):
a little bit. What's her health like versus what's his
health like? You know, if he's already in long term care, well,
you don't want him getting the money directly, okay, but
you could still you go to again, you go to
probate court, you do a protective order and maybe even
do what's called a D four a trust or you
(27:41):
can protect it, but he's kind of old for that.
But anyway, the idea here is don't just have sister
cut brother or check. That would be bad for both
because now he's got the money, which he can't give
back and which will disqualify him from long term care.
And if she gives it away, just gives it now
(28:02):
she's got a penalty period. So this is one of
those where you're really, you know, it's so frustrating, right
because half a million dollars at that age reflects a
lifetime of making decisions.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Right, I'm not going to do this.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
I am going to do that you know, I'm not
and now here we are, and that money could really
be very useful, not only to them but to the
next generation as well. But because there's no protection for
it because they did the oh I just put them
on the on the thingy, you know, and and let's
say it had gone through right, Well, it's not much better,
(28:40):
you see. So it's all about this my idea of
you know, defense and depth. You know, Look, did you
get the money to your relative, Yes? Did you do it,
and let's assume it had gone the way you expected?
Did it go without probate?
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (28:56):
But what are the consequences. Consequences are that she doesn't
actually get if she needs long term care. And when
you get into your eighties and nineties, the participation rate
in long term care is through the roof. It's almost
it gets close to one hundred percent. Where people need
long term care. Well, if you've been listening to me
for five seconds, you know that that means Medicaid, the
(29:17):
program that you paid for with every paycheck, right, but
you're not going to get it because you've got too
much cash. And it could have been very different. This
could be additional resources to support the family instead of
you know, instead of paying twice for something you already
paid for. And worse, your brother gave you the money.
(29:38):
He wanted this to be good for you. He wanted
it to be extra, and now it's not extra. So anyway,
that's so two things. Number One, I would go back
to the insurance and usually when we've done it, it's
because no beneficiaries at all. Right, so you go back
and ask him to read the tape, you know, because
you have an idea what the date was. You know,
(30:01):
if they're willing to do it, and sometimes they are
and sometimes they're not. But that would be my first thing.
The second is, in order to get it to brother,
get a protective order from the probate court establishing that
this is the way it should have been, and get
an order saying that that's the way it's going to be.
And then that way it's not a divestment. When she
gives the money to the brother.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Okay, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Is that enough?
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Then I say, Jay, thanks for calling. Yeah, it can
be fixed, and can be fixed.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
That's the point.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Okay, you've been listening to the David Carrier Show. I'm
David Carrier. Your family's personal attorney.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
David's perking and working and taking your calls. Now, this
is the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Well, come back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. Now's the time give us a call.
Sixty one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
That's right, you know, aj our last caller was. You know,
sometimes you send documents in you wander, oh, I hope
this works, uh, and then it doesn't work, and you
(31:07):
know the best better course is to double check.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
So when we're.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
See, here's the thing with trust, here's why most trusts fail.
Almost all of them in my experience, fail because people
don't put the stuff in the trust, like you'll fill
in a form and you'll send it off. You know, oh,
I did it right. But most people don't even know
that they're supposed to do that right because the instructions
(31:32):
to do that are in the binder. But you know,
the instruction to do it, not how to do it,
but that you're supposed to do it is in there,
and you don't really understand what the heck they were
talking about. So but you're happy because you got a
trust now and all this and now I can. Now
I can check that box, okay. I mean, yeah, that's
obviously how it's working for an awful lot of folks.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
It's like, oh, I know, anyone to get a state
plan and you're conscientious, You're conscientious and agreeable, and you say, yeah, okay,
I'm gonna get that done. And then you go and
you get it done. But now the follow through isn't
there because you knew you needed to get it done,
and now you've got the binder, like everybody else does,
(32:18):
ask yourself a question, when was the last time you
spoke to the person who put that binder together for you?
Routinely I asked this question at workshops. The last time
you talk to the person the attorney typically who put
it together was the time you signed it. Well, it
ain't gonna work, I mean you can't. That can't be it, okay,
(32:42):
because once you create the trust, there's a whole bunch
of stuff that's got to happen for that trust to work.
After you've created the trust, right, the trust is just
a vehicle, right, You haven't put your stuff in it.
You got to put your stuff in it. Funding is
what they call it. Right, So, and as AJ's call indicated,
(33:03):
sometimes just sending out the paperwork is not enough. You
have to follow up. You have to make sure that
it actually that it actually went through. And even then
you can be deceived because they'll check, oh, you know,
you talk to somebody, you can't get through to them,
what have you?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And so and so.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Then when the time comes and it turns out that
your stuff wasn't in the trust, now you've got to
do a bunch of footwork to say, okay, did they
receive the documents? You know, how can I prove it?
Can they look at the tape and see? And sometimes
they can find it, and sometimes they can't. And sometimes
they're not even willing. They're not even willing to look.
I mean, at the big companies what have you, irs
(33:49):
routinely loses stuff. I mean, you would think that sending
in certified mail would be enough. You would not be
correct as a matter of fact. I mean a lot
of people count on that. But you know the idea, oh,
if I get it in the mail by midnight, I'll
be fine. Well, yeah, if they get it, if they
log it, if they note it. But what if they don't,
(34:12):
All right, then it's your word. Against theirs, and you know,
guess who wins in that contest unless you go to
court and everything else. So anyway, the point is that
when we're funding trusts, it's not enough just to send
the documents out.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
We've got to double check.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And lots of times we're talking to the people at
the insurance company or the finance company whatever, financial advisor
and what have you. And we even have a letter
that we ask them that we send off with the packets,
say hey, sign this, so we've got something.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Now.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Sometimes I would have to say, we don't always get
it back because it says I understand that this is
going in the trust and I did everything necessary. Well,
there have been sometimes where it's very nice having that
having gotten it back. I haven't getten the letter back
that says that they actually put the stuff in the
trust has worked out when then later on they said
(35:08):
it wasn't in the trust, and so well, I got
a letter signed by your representative saying that it was
in the trust. And here you go and then they
you know, then they find things and fix things, but
it gives you some it gives you some leverage. So
we're in an environment where even if you do everything correctly.
(35:29):
The people that you're dealing with can still flub it
up right and your assets won't be in the trust.
So that's that's reality, no matter how hard you try, right,
the people on the other end aren't so used. See,
this is the thing that you got to understand. They're
not really used to dealing with this, right. The industries
(35:52):
are not set of banks and financial institution whatever. They're
not set up to deal with funding the trusts nearly
as as much as they should be because they're not
called on to do it very often. So frequently we've
got hours on the line on hold with insurance people,
what have you, not me personally as the paralegals, mostly
(36:14):
online while we're funding the trust because they're not really
used to dealing with it.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
You get it.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
I mean, this is something that's really important. It's got
to happen for the trust to work. Millions of trusts
are being done, but it's so unusual that anybody's actually
trying to fund the trust that the big institutions are
not really set up to do it to respond in
anywhere with anywhere near the capacity that they need to
(36:46):
have in order to do it efficiently and effectively. You'd
think that this would be done. It isn't because it
hasn't happened.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
It's not happening. So often it's not happening.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
I wouldn't say never, but you know, not often do
you come up you have a trust where everything's done
and here's the other thing. Whenever you have anyone who
actually did fund the trust right, and we do have
people like that, there are some people who actually put
everything into the trust right, the response is almost always
(37:19):
a litany of what they had to go through to
get it in there. It's not just fill out these forms,
send them in, boom, You're done. There's got to be
follow up. And that's why we do these in a
workshop model. And we've got our you know, we've got
our paralegals involved in everything else looking for those looking
for those exceptions where the thing didn't go in well,
(37:39):
just double checking to make sure that that's to make
sure that that's done. It takes time to make this work.
And the reality is even if it is screwed up,
you know you tried, but it got screwed up somehow,
there are remedies that you know, the probate court is
not a probate court can be your friend, all right.
(38:00):
They can really help out in a situation like this
with the protective order process. You don't have to go
through the whole rigamarole, right. You just need, you know,
a little bit of relief, a little bit of help,
and the probate court can give that to you if
you've got the right situation. So never say never, never
give up, all right that, never give up, never surrender.
(38:24):
Don't surrender, you know, don't give up. It can be done, okay,
but it's probably more work than you think. It's definitely
more work than you think, and it's more work than
most people are willing to do, which is why we
have it as part of our process. If you're gonna
work with us, we're gonna get it done. Follow through
and follow up critical. You've been listening to the David
(38:45):
Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney.
He served at the Pentagon as an army jag. He
graduated from Notre Dame and has two law degrees from
Boston University and Georgetown University. He's been practicing law for
over thirty years. He's your family's personal attorney. It's time
for the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hello, and welcome to the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney, and you have
found the place where we talk about a state planning,
elder law, real estate and business law, which you can
sum up as kind of like retirement law. Basically, if
you're retired, if you want to be retired, if you
know anybody who's retired, if you're thinking about being retired,
(00:43):
if you realize that you'll never be retired, no, no, no,
You'll be pushing the stone up the hill and it's
going to roll back down every single day. That's just
the life you've got. Anyway, Well, even if you think
about retirement, that would be fine. Now's the time.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Give us a call.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Six one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
That's sixty one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
If you'd like to get your question, comment or concern
on the air, especially if it has to do with wills, trust, probate.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
You know, a lot of people worried.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Well, I have to say that a lot of people
not as worried as they ought to be. We're in
an environment right now where the cost of care is
going through the roof. We're all worried about avoiding probate
or something silly like that. And what's the point of
avoiding probate if you broke I don't get it anyway,
six six seven, seven four, twenty four, twenty four. You
(01:41):
have a question, comment or concern, we'll get you on
the air. You know, a lot of folks just ran
into it again yesterday. We're doing a breakfast club now,
you know, because we got some feedback that, hey, how
come you don't have any more? You know, I'm working.
I'm still working. That's a that's a reality for a
(02:01):
lot of us, isn't it still working? And the question was, well,
your workshops are at two o'clock. And my first reaction is, well,
I got a whole bunch of workshops at six o'clock.
And generally if we do a two o'clock, we'll also
do a six and at least once a month. We're
doing them in the evening at a fine dining establishment
(02:24):
known as Russ's. And we do them on the weekends too.
We do that, and so I thought, well, you know,
what's more fun than having breakfast and dealing with elder laws.
So anyway, stay planning and whatnot. So we started that.
That was our first one yesterday, very well attended, very good,
very good group. I'm thinking we're going to have to
(02:46):
do those on a regular basis. So you know, most
of the time you get these invites, you know, come
to have your rubber steak and what have you. Well,
we don't do that. Heck no, we go to the
home of the onion ring.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
If you can find a better onion ring than Russ's,
bring it by and we'll do you. We'll give you
a free estate plan, that's right, a free estate plan
if you can come up with a better onion ring
than Russ's, and of course I get to decide if
it's better.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
So there you are.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Fairness and everything. That's our that's our model. But anyway,
it was it was really nice seeing seeing the folks
come out yesterday for the for the workshop, yeah, it
was just a weekend. But but just you know, the
usual uh Billy Joel says, the regular crowd shuffles in.
But it was regular folks, you know, normal people who
(03:37):
we get to a certain time and we're like, gee,
maybe I ought to do something, Maybe I ought to
do something about this stuff. And the Three Secrets Workshop,
which I'm not going to tell you what the secrets are,
although I have to say that for regular listeners when
they come to one of our events and we tell
them what the Three Secrets are, it's like, oh, yeah, okay,
(03:58):
well I was expecting some thing. Well it's a little
bit different, but not much not much different than what
you hear here here prefer a little bit different context,
and so I don't not saying anybody who's complaining exactly,
but still in all, come to a Three Secrets workshop,
find out what it's all about. And mostly at the workshop,
(04:21):
what we're doing is we're starting you on the path
actually getting something done or double checking that what you
already have is going to be sufficient. So go to
the website Davidcarrier Law dot com. We also have our
AI expert on duty twenty four seven three sixty five
in other words, all the time. The AI expert on
(04:43):
the website really helps you navigate the website. And I
don't want to say it answers questions exactly, but you
can talk to it. You know, it's one of these
AI things, and you can you can actually talk to
it and ask it questions and it will give responses.
I don't want to say their answers are certainly not
legal advice. But a lot of people, thousands now have
(05:07):
found it. At least that's the feedback we're getting from
the thousands of people who've used it. It has been useful.
It has been a good deal, much better than trying
to go through the website. And like I think, our
website is pretty well done still in all if you
want the video on what do my kids do now
that they're the trustee, right, we have a number of
(05:30):
those because you know, our commitment is to making sure
that your estate plan actually works well. Part of your
estate plan actually working means that when you are no
longer with us, when you're singing in the invisible choir, right,
it's your turn. The kids have some idea what's going on?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
It's not that you don't leave them high and dry
and like, hey, here's a stack of moldy papers, good
luck to you. We don't do that. Instead, every year,
twice a year we have our our trust d Workshop,
Beneficiary Workshop. How to be a good trust d, what
it means to be a beneficiary, how the trust works,
(06:14):
all that kind of thing, And we've got recordings of those. Yeah,
we do record them so that they're always available. But
instead of having to poke around trying to find it,
you can just ask the AI and it will answer any.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Particular questions you have.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
But we'll also can also direct you to to the videos,
and we've.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Got a whole.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
We've got a whole library of videos on all kinds
of things, how to be the trustee, what is how
is the part of attorney work?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You know?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
What documents are there? What do they mean?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
All that kind of stuff is all is all available
no cost on the website. You don't get breakfast at
Russ's if you go to the website, though, and you
replicate the experience on the website. So I suggest the
suggests coming to one of the three secret workshop, which
we do at all of the offices in Norton Shores
(07:09):
up there in Norton shores over in Holland, down in
Portage and of course in Grand Rapids. So and we
do them on a regular basis that this is not
the sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Uh, you can't.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
You can't give the excuse, oh, well, they just had
a workshop, there won't be another one for three months.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Wrong.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
We're doing the workshops at all the locations every month,
and sometimes multiple times during the month. And besides, which
driving the Grand Rapids in that hard anyway, and then
we're doing them weekly. So it's really it's really not
hard to get to a workshop. We'd love to love
to see you there. So let's see, yesterday we had
(07:49):
you know, we had the usual you know, folks who
are who are retired, about to be retired, then retired
for a while, and you know, trying to put things
together at the workshop. I can't tell you that at
the workshop, and I wouldn't at the workshop that oh
we're going to design your plan there. That doesn't that
doesn't happen. But you start, we do, go through the
(08:11):
components and we get your set up for the for
the next step. Most folks, you know, listeners, you kind
of get it, but most folks have no idea that
the trusts usually don't work, and they don't work because
there was no follow through.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
A lot of people do these trusts.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
They don't put anything in them, or they put the
house in it and then they move, but they never
put the new house in it, or they refinance, or
they do a home equity line or credit all these things.
I got asked yesterday about the Ladybug deed, and of
course it's the Lady Bird deed or the or the
transfer on death deed, which people think is a solution
(08:53):
and it's a tool, you know, that's really I would
say that's one of the big but it's one of
the big points we make at the workshop is that
tools like beneficiary designations, putting kids on the deed, Ladybird,
all these things that you've heard of. It's like will
(09:14):
they avoid probate? Yeah, but there are other consequences to them,
tax consequences, frequently, family disharmony. There's all kinds of things
that people do that make the situation worse. And if
you and it's because and I don't know who you blame,
but people say, oh, my uncle just did this or
(09:36):
my friends just did that, and it was fine. And
the problem with those kinds of stories. Is there are
lots of true stories like that, right, There are a
lot of true stories of people getting away with it,
you know, just doing this or just doing that. I'm
not saying it never happens, but you never hear the
other side of it, which is kind of you know,
(09:58):
the people who come to see me where it blew up,
where it was a disaster, where you know, it fractured
the family, where somebody hung on to everything and they
were supposed to distribute it, or just the ambiguity of
not knowing what it was that mom and dad actually
wanted and you don't know because they never told you.
They just put people's names on various things, and you know,
(10:21):
it's that kind of thing that you know, you find
out about it these at these workshops. So anyway, just
to explain the difference between a tool and a plan,
they're different things, right, box of tools is not a
finished project, right. A box of tools is the way
you get to the finished project. But if you don't
(10:42):
have any plan and just say, hey, honey, you know
I would like you to build me a table, Well, yeah, honey,
there's the saw and there's the hammer. I got some
sandpaper around here somewhere too. I guess I'm done.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Tools are not a plan. You've been listening to the
David Carrier Show. Oh, I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
This hour of the David Carrier Show is pro bono,
so call in now at seven seven four twenty four,
twenty four. This is the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Welcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. You may notice we're playing music
from Kiss. Those are the guys that got all dressed up.
Do you remember them back in the day. But one
of them died this week as freely died, So we're
honoring Kiss this week. So this is a Sunday of
(11:38):
Kiss anyway. Six one six seven then four twenty four
twenty four. That's six one, six seven seven four twenty four.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
To twenty four.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
That's the number to call if you have any question,
comment or concern. Let's get right to the emails. Boy,
we're getting to the emails early this week. You know,
I was going to talk about the I was thinking
anyway about talking about you know, national demonstrations because no
kings right and all that well, it's been two hundred
and fifty years since we had a real rebellion against them,
(12:08):
and now we just got some politicians who are unhappy
with the way things are going. So yeah, yeah, yeah,
and uh, of course they flamed out. I don't know
what did the did the checks not clear for the
paid protesters, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I don't know. Oh, and we got Scott on the line. Hello, Scott,
thanks for rescuing me.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Hey, mister carrier.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Uh, I hope, I hope you're having a good Sunday
in this rainy sunday. But uh, quick.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Quickly, well, you know, you know, I got I gotta
tell you, I've got a lot of trial and tribulation.
My son is out helping with the UH with the marathon,
you know, volunteering at the marathon, and of course great yeah,
my wife uh piled three raincoats on him and uh
and all the rest. But so which of course, probably
he wear a T shirt instead.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You know what I mean. Yeah, go ahead, Scott, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
For our O.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
No, no, no, that's good. That's good to that's good
that you instill that sense of UH supporting the community
and the kids.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So that's right.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Support that I do have lots of questions. I'm not
gonna ask one today, and that that is and it's
a my aunt. My aunt is doing a project on
her house that requires a permit, okay, And and the
inspector says, unless you are on the deed, you cannot
(13:32):
you know, help out, shall we say? Aunt something that
requires a permit for her son. She did a ladybird
deed last year. I didn't advise it, but she did.
And so she put all her kids in this lady
bird deed. Her her kid my cousin could actually help
her on this project, even though I kind of consultant help,
(13:52):
you know, give him information. But is it would he
officially be considered I'm the deed and it's a lady
bird deed for him to actually help her in this
project that requires or permit because she's not going to
do the work. But uh, you know, her my cousin could.
But the inspector says, only if he's on the deed.
(14:13):
And I'm just curious, does a Ladybird ded give him
that quote unquote on the deed authority or is that
I just don't know how that works.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yeah, this is the problem on the deed is not
a legal term. On the deed is what people say,
whether it's a whether it's a joint tenancy, whether it's
tenants in common join tendency with the rights of survivorship,
or these or these ladybird deeds, and there is no
So let's say, let's say you buy something on land contract. Okay,
(14:46):
I'm going to give you an example that's different but
the same. So you buy on land contract, which means
that you're not on the deed, but you have a
contract to buy the place to get the deed when
you finish making pain.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Okay. Now, the way the law.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Looks at that is your you have what they call
equitable title. In other words, when you buy on a
land contract, the idea is.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
You're like the owner.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Okay, you have so you can take the principal residence exemption,
so you can deduct the interest that you're paying on
the land contract, so that you you're locking in the
you're locking in the what you call the state equalized value,
you know, the whole capping the taxable value. Right, So
you're doing all those things when you buy on land contract.
(15:41):
And the theory is you have equitable title, but you're
not on any deed. There's no deed, okay, So when
you put someone on the deed of the various kinds
of deeds that there are, then it can be it
can be kind of well what does it mean exactly?
(16:02):
And I think you're exactly right. Because with the transfer
on death deed, the so called Ladybird deed, which is
named after lbj's wife, widow, you know, Lady Bird Johnson,
because she had the She led the court case down
in Texas that established it. But Michigan had it back
(16:22):
in the eighteen forties. I mean, we've had it right along.
It's just like it became popular over the last twenty
years or so. And there's no transfer. See, with a
land contract, the idea is there's a transfer when you
do the land contract, not when you do the deed.
With the Ladybird deed, there's no transfer when you do
(16:43):
the deed until the person who can revoke the transfer dies,
all right, Because once you do a Ladybird ded you
don't have an ownership interest, you don't have a possessory interest.
You just get the property or share of the property
and some when mom dies. So it's I can't imagine
(17:06):
that Anybody who understood what was actually going on would say, oh, yeah,
you don't need to.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Permit because you're on the deed. See.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
The idea is, you don't want to stop people from
going to handy andy buying some stuff and putting in
like plugs and you know, and renovating their houses. You
don't want to stop that, So you don't need to
permit for a lot of things that otherwise would need
to permit for because it's your own house. But this
isn't your cousin's house, right, It's not going to be
(17:37):
his house till after mom dies, and even then he
only has to share with with all the siblings, which is,
you know, scorpions in a bottle as far as I'm concerned,
you know, the the last man standing circular firing squad.
It's just but okay, I know people do it, and
you know, and the and the kids made the consequences
of it.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
Yeah, so, and I guess how you fast forward to
the relatively that I appreciate that clarific patient. But so
they are going to pull a permit, and my aunt
pulled the permit. But of course it says that no
one else can do work on it. Except her, And
so I'm just thinking, well, it's a family member doing
it for for, you know, his mom. But the inspector
(18:19):
is kind of like him. Less he's on the deed,
he can't do the work on the house. And so
I was just kind.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Of, yeah, the inspector's correct. Okay, Yeah, the inspector's correct.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
She can't have her son do the work for her.
I mean the permit to be.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Well, she can't have her son to do the work,
that's right.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
I mean, I mean, look, I haven't done the research
on this thing directly, but I don't understand. It's like, oh,
you know, when mom dies, I'm on the will, so
I'm gonna get It's like, no.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
No, that's the whole point.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
It's only owners of real estate who get to improve
their own real estate thing. No, we don't infringe on that, right,
But that doesn't mean I can let somebody else do it. It
means I can't let anybody else do it. It's only
the owner of the property. That's the point. Because you
have an ownership interest, presumably you don't want it to
burn down. You can't just delegate that. And a ladybird
(19:18):
ded doesn't transfer any kind of ownership until after the
person dies, and in fact, the mom can snatch back
the house anytime she wants. So you know, that's the
beauty of the lady. That's what everybody likes about the
ladybird deed.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
If you're asking me, yeah, yeah, I say out at.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Home plate okay, not your own plate.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Okay, Scott, thanks for giving me. Oh and the music,
you bet you. You've been listening to the David Carrier Show.
I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney, and we've got
AJ from Grand Rapids on the line.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Coming up next.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
David's got the how too you're looking for Just call
seven seven twenty four twenty four. This is the David
Carrier Show.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Wellcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. Now's the time give us a call.
Sixty one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
That's six one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
Get your right through to the switchboard and we'll get
you on. We've got AJ on the line. Good morning, AJ.
(20:27):
Welcome to the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Morning David. Thanks, Hey, I have an uncle who died recently.
He had a brokerage account with a national brokerage firm
well known UH. He opened the account in twenty nineteen
and on his transfer on death named his sister. Then
in twenty twenty one he revised the designation and named
(20:55):
his sister to get fifty percent and his brother to
get fifty percent, and the new form was sent to
the brokerage firm. But we've discovered that the firm is
saying that the new beneficiary designation was not put on
his account and the only one they have is the
initial one from twenty nineteen. I don't know, I'm not
(21:22):
quite sure what to do. They're saying that they don't
have the new one and that they're going to go
by the old one. Do you have any thoughts about that?
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Yeah, so this happens from time to time. Everybody loses stuff,
from the irs to Charles Schwam Okay most of the time,
kind of stuck with it. But but if you know
when it happened, if you know what the date was
when it happened, if they go back, because with these
(21:57):
big place insurance companies would have you right, everything gets
logged in all right, and We've had it happen on
a couple of time, a couple of occasions, just exactly
what you're talking about. And we managed to convince someone
at the brokerage or the it was insurance companies both
times to go back and basically look at the tape.
(22:20):
But we were able, you know, because we keep records
on all this stuff, we were able to tell them,
you know, when it was that the document would have
come in, and in two occasions they were able to
go back to when it should have come in and
they found it. Because they scan everything in as things
come in, and there's a you've got to have somebody
(22:43):
at the insurance company or brokeray or wherever it is,
who is willing to go the extra mile because generally
what you get is what you got, which is we
check the records.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And nothing in there.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
But they should be they should have a system where
everything that comes in. Now, everything that comes in is
supposed to be shot you know, you're supposed to shoot
it over to whatever account it's supposed to go to. Right,
But there's a general tape, you know, there's a general intake.
Now it's been what five years, is that right?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Twenty one I think you said quarters changed four years.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, okay, yeah, so a significant period of time. Like
for example, you may think that when you send something
certified mail, right and it's oh, it's got the numbers
on it, I'm good to go. Well, the post office
only keeps that for one hundred and twenty days. Oh
you know, you're not making any permanent record there. But
(23:40):
at the at these at these companies, though they tend
to that tends to be a persistent thing. But you know,
technology changes, it's not easy to find this stuff. But
what I would suggest now, is brother not agreeing to
share or what's going on with that?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, he's saying no, the sister.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
The sister says, I'll just give the brother fifty percent
of what I get. She'll just give it to him.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
How old is she she?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
How old is she?
Speaker 4 (24:17):
How old are she's she's ninety one and he's eighty six.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Okay, So the problem that you've got with people of
that age received And how much money are we talking about.
I mean, if it's fifty cents, it's no big deal.
But no, we're talking about a significant amount of money.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Yeah, it's about five hundred thousand dollars that total. Yeah,
so it would be fifty.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Okay, So let me let me sort of tell you
how we would do that kind of thing. We never
give out money through the beneficiary designation. We always designate
the trust. So any recipient doesn't receive the cashy money
or the investment or whatever, they get a trust with
money inside. What that means is if you're eighty six
(25:03):
years old and you need long term care, which means Medicaid, right,
you didn't just throw two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
out the window or to the.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Nursing home or what have you.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Now, the problem is if sister just go and you know,
that's kind of is what it is right now. I mean,
you can still save they're single, you can save about
half half of the money. If they do need long
term care, you can still do stuff. But here's the problem.
If sister gives brother the two fifty, right, she's going
to be treated as if she gave away two hundred
(25:35):
and fifty thousand dollars. Are you with me on this
just as a gift? So now she's going to have,
you know, a very long penalty period at what about
twenty months about two and a half years, she won't
be able to qualify because she gave money away two
years anyway, The point is that the way to handle
(25:58):
something like this, given their age, right, given the ages,
so that she doesn't suffer that penalty, would be to
go to go to probate court and get what's called
a protective order. You can this is a one off,
so we're not going through probate, we're not doing the
inventory in the accounting and get all the errors involved
and all the.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Rest of it.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
There's this process where if you have a situation like this,
where it's a limited situation, we just need some clarity here,
then you can ask the court for what's called a
protective order. And it's a very kind of a general thing.
It's like, hey, judge, please ignow you know. And there's
(26:39):
nobody on the other side, obviously because nobody's against it.
But the idea would be to say, hey, judge, this
thing got lost, all right, and we filled it out,
and we know we filled it out because we've I'm
guessing you've got a copy.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Of this somewhere, right, I have it? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Yeah, So you say right, so you say, hey, it
should have been done like this. We send it in
et cetera, cetera. And I shouldn't have had half a million.
I should have had two fifty. My brother should have
had two fifty. Okay, But you know, even that is
one of those things where you want to dive deep
(27:19):
a little bit. What's her health like versus what's his
health like? You know, if he's already in long term care, well,
you don't want him getting the money directly, okay, but
you could still you go to again, you go to
probate court, you do a protective order and maybe even
do what's called a D four a trust or you
(27:41):
can protect it, but he's kind of old for that.
But anyway, the idea here is don't just have sister
cut brother or check. That would be bad for both
because now he's got the money, which he can't give
back and which will disqualify him from long term care.
And if she gives it away, just gives it now
(28:02):
she's got a penalty period. So this is one of
those where you're really, you know, it's so frustrating, right
because half a million dollars at that age reflects a
lifetime of making decisions.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Right, I'm not going to do this.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
I am going to do that you know, I'm not
and now here we are, and that money could really
be very useful, not only to them but to the
next generation as well. But because there's no protection for
it because they did the oh I just put them
on the on the thingy, you know, and and let's
say it had gone through right, Well, it's not much better,
(28:40):
you see. So it's all about this my idea of
you know, defense and depth. You know, Look, did you
get the money to your relative, Yes? Did you do it,
and let's assume it had gone the way you expected?
Did it go without probate?
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (28:56):
But what are the consequences. Consequences are that she doesn't
actually get if she needs long term care. And when
you get into your eighties and nineties, the participation rate
in long term care is through the roof. It's almost
it gets close to one hundred percent. Where people need
long term care. Well, if you've been listening to me
for five seconds, you know that that means Medicaid, the
(29:17):
program that you paid for with every paycheck, right, but
you're not going to get it because you've got too
much cash. And it could have been very different. This
could be additional resources to support the family instead of
you know, instead of paying twice for something you already
paid for. And worse, your brother gave you the money.
(29:38):
He wanted this to be good for you. He wanted
it to be extra, and now it's not extra. So anyway,
that's so two things. Number One, I would go back
to the insurance and usually when we've done it, it's
because no beneficiaries at all. Right, so you go back
and ask him to read the tape, you know, because
you have an idea what the date was. You know,
(30:01):
if they're willing to do it, and sometimes they are
and sometimes they're not. But that would be my first thing.
The second is, in order to get it to brother,
get a protective order from the probate court establishing that
this is the way it should have been, and get
an order saying that that's the way it's going to be.
And then that way it's not a divestment. When she
gives the money to the brother.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Okay, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Is that enough?
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Then I say, Jay, thanks for calling. Yeah, it can
be fixed, and can be fixed.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
That's the point.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Okay, you've been listening to the David Carrier Show. I'm
David Carrier. Your family's personal attorney.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
David's perking and working and taking your calls. Now, this
is the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Well, come back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. Now's the time give us a call.
Sixty one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
That's right, you know, aj our last caller was. You know,
sometimes you send documents in you wander, oh, I hope
this works, uh, and then it doesn't work, and you
(31:07):
know the best better course is to double check.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
So when we're.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
See, here's the thing with trust, here's why most trusts fail.
Almost all of them in my experience, fail because people
don't put the stuff in the trust, like you'll fill
in a form and you'll send it off. You know, oh,
I did it right. But most people don't even know
that they're supposed to do that right because the instructions
(31:32):
to do that are in the binder. But you know,
the instruction to do it, not how to do it,
but that you're supposed to do it is in there,
and you don't really understand what the heck they were
talking about. So but you're happy because you got a
trust now and all this and now I can. Now
I can check that box, okay. I mean, yeah, that's
obviously how it's working for an awful lot of folks.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
It's like, oh, I know, anyone to get a state
plan and you're conscientious, You're conscientious and agreeable, and you say, yeah, okay,
I'm gonna get that done. And then you go and
you get it done. But now the follow through isn't
there because you knew you needed to get it done,
and now you've got the binder, like everybody else does,
(32:18):
ask yourself a question, when was the last time you
spoke to the person who put that binder together for you?
Routinely I asked this question at workshops. The last time
you talk to the person the attorney typically who put
it together was the time you signed it. Well, it
ain't gonna work, I mean you can't. That can't be it, okay,
(32:42):
because once you create the trust, there's a whole bunch
of stuff that's got to happen for that trust to work.
After you've created the trust, right, the trust is just
a vehicle, right, You haven't put your stuff in it.
You got to put your stuff in it. Funding is
what they call it. Right, So, and as AJ's call indicated,
(33:03):
sometimes just sending out the paperwork is not enough. You
have to follow up. You have to make sure that
it actually that it actually went through. And even then
you can be deceived because they'll check, oh, you know,
you talk to somebody, you can't get through to them,
what have you?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And so and so.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Then when the time comes and it turns out that
your stuff wasn't in the trust, now you've got to
do a bunch of footwork to say, okay, did they
receive the documents? You know, how can I prove it?
Can they look at the tape and see? And sometimes
they can find it, and sometimes they can't. And sometimes
they're not even willing. They're not even willing to look.
I mean, at the big companies what have you, irs
(33:49):
routinely loses stuff. I mean, you would think that sending
in certified mail would be enough. You would not be
correct as a matter of fact. I mean a lot
of people count on that. But you know the idea, oh,
if I get it in the mail by midnight, I'll
be fine. Well, yeah, if they get it, if they
log it, if they note it. But what if they don't,
(34:12):
All right, then it's your word. Against theirs, and you know,
guess who wins in that contest unless you go to
court and everything else. So anyway, the point is that
when we're funding trusts, it's not enough just to send
the documents out.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
We've got to double check.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And lots of times we're talking to the people at
the insurance company or the finance company whatever, financial advisor
and what have you. And we even have a letter
that we ask them that we send off with the packets,
say hey, sign this, so we've got something.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Now.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Sometimes I would have to say, we don't always get
it back because it says I understand that this is
going in the trust and I did everything necessary. Well,
there have been sometimes where it's very nice having that
having gotten it back. I haven't getten the letter back
that says that they actually put the stuff in the
trust has worked out when then later on they said
(35:08):
it wasn't in the trust, and so well, I got
a letter signed by your representative saying that it was
in the trust. And here you go and then they
you know, then they find things and fix things, but
it gives you some it gives you some leverage. So
we're in an environment where even if you do everything correctly.
(35:29):
The people that you're dealing with can still flub it
up right and your assets won't be in the trust.
So that's that's reality, no matter how hard you try, right,
the people on the other end aren't so used. See,
this is the thing that you got to understand. They're
not really used to dealing with this, right. The industries
(35:52):
are not set of banks and financial institution whatever. They're
not set up to deal with funding the trusts nearly
as as much as they should be because they're not
called on to do it very often. So frequently we've
got hours on the line on hold with insurance people,
what have you, not me personally as the paralegals, mostly
(36:14):
online while we're funding the trust because they're not really
used to dealing with it.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
You get it.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
I mean, this is something that's really important. It's got
to happen for the trust to work. Millions of trusts
are being done, but it's so unusual that anybody's actually
trying to fund the trust that the big institutions are
not really set up to do it to respond in
anywhere with anywhere near the capacity that they need to
(36:46):
have in order to do it efficiently and effectively. You'd
think that this would be done. It isn't because it
hasn't happened.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
It's not happening. So often it's not happening.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
I wouldn't say never, but you know, not often do
you come up you have a trust where everything's done
and here's the other thing. Whenever you have anyone who
actually did fund the trust right, and we do have
people like that, there are some people who actually put
everything into the trust right, the response is almost always
(37:19):
a litany of what they had to go through to
get it in there. It's not just fill out these forms,
send them in, boom, You're done. There's got to be
follow up. And that's why we do these in a
workshop model. And we've got our you know, we've got
our paralegals involved in everything else looking for those looking
for those exceptions where the thing didn't go in well,
(37:39):
just double checking to make sure that that's to make
sure that that's done. It takes time to make this work.
And the reality is even if it is screwed up,
you know you tried, but it got screwed up somehow,
there are remedies that you know, the probate court is
not a probate court can be your friend, all right.
(38:00):
They can really help out in a situation like this
with the protective order process. You don't have to go
through the whole rigamarole, right. You just need, you know,
a little bit of relief, a little bit of help,
and the probate court can give that to you if
you've got the right situation. So never say never, never
give up, all right that, never give up, never surrender.
(38:24):
Don't surrender, you know, don't give up. It can be done, okay,
but it's probably more work than you think. It's definitely
more work than you think, and it's more work than
most people are willing to do, which is why we
have it as part of our process. If you're gonna
work with us, we're gonna get it done. Follow through
and follow up critical. You've been listening to the David
(38:45):
Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney.
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