Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
He served at the Pentagon as an army jag. He
graduated from Notre Dame and has two law degrees from
Boston University and Georgetown University. He's been practicing law for
over thirty years. He's your family's personal attorney. It's time
for the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello, and welcome to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney, and you have found the place
where we talk about a state planning, elder law, real
estate and business loan. So give us a call. Why
don't you six six seven seven four twenty four twenty four,
that's sixty one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
(00:44):
Will get your question, comment or concern on the air.
In the meantime, we're going to be racking through some emails, rocketing,
rocketing through the emails. We also do workshops. As you know,
we have a whole new well say now it's been
doing it for a couple of years now process that
(01:05):
it's a workshop based process, so that you'll be working
with you'll be in class with other families as you
move through the process. You know, one of the one
of our concerns was the so here's the thing. When
you go one on one with an attorney or whatever, right,
and I'm not talking about this online stuff, you know,
(01:26):
it's it is what it is. You might as well,
you know, buy some blanks and fill those in, go ahead,
But when you go one on one, it's expensive. It's
really expensive because you're one on one with the attorney, right,
you got to do it like that, if you do
it like that. So what we did, starting a few
years ago, was figure out, well, how can we bring
(01:49):
the cost down? And the answer was what if we didn't?
What if we took everything we could do in a
group in a workshop and put it in a workshop.
So that's what we've done. So instead of come to
a workshop, find out what's going on, right, and then
you're one on one, which is kind of pressure, I guess, right,
(02:09):
instead of that, you're working with a group all the
way through, so you're not alone. You're with other people
who are got exactly the same sorts of issues that
you do, not the same issues. And we don't get
into personal stuff. Okay, but there's so much of the education,
there's so much of the process, right that rather than
(02:29):
deliver that across the table, we deal with it in
a room. And here's the other thing that's really that
has turned out to be very very nice about it
is other people will have questions. I keep hearing this,
Oh I never would have asked that question, but so
and so did and that was great. And because you're
working together, right, it really reduces you know, how everybody
(02:52):
hates coming to lawyers. I get it, you know, we're
scary and all the rest. Okay, fine, but there's strength
in numbers, right, So what if you were there with
other people just like you, Other people who have a
four to one K, other people who you know are
paying off their house or paid it off or whatever,
other people with kids, other people who are confronting the
(03:13):
same sorts of issues that you are. What if the
whole process, except for where we need to be one
on one, except where we need to be confidential, and
all the rest. And we've we've figured out what that is,
and we are you know, that is very private, very personal,
one on one, but everything that doesn't have to be
that way. What if we did that in a group. Okay,
(03:36):
so it's not you know, you don't feel like, oh,
that's not a good question. Someone else will ask the question,
or if you ask the question, other people will be
grateful that you asked the question. Okay, it works out.
That's what we're doing with these workshops now. It's a
different way than we Well, we did it the other
way for thirty years, you know, kind of the the
(03:57):
traditional you know, one on one and blah blah blah,
and we you know, that was great, that was fine,
But there's a better way to do it. I think
the workshop is the way now. If you have specific,
you know, very specific needs, Okay, we're gonna deal with
those in your one on one meetings because we do
that as well, right, so that we make sure that
(04:20):
it's exactly what you want, not one of five choices
off a computer screen or something like that, but actually
something that you need in your family situation. Okay, But
I'm just saying the workshop model is the way to go,
and we are doing those, you know, every week in Holland, Muskegan, Kalamazoo,
and Grand Rapids. So go to the website Davidcarrier Law
(04:44):
dot com. Sign up. How is it legal? Here's a question.
How is it legal for the executor of an estate
to close all joint accounts plus a personal account of
the sibling on joint account. My mother passed and had
will named sister in law executor. Mother had almost no
debts and was on joint account plus a loan account
(05:05):
with me. I also had a personal checking account and
saving account. The Federal Credit Union froze all accounts upon
her passing. Then executor was allowed to close all accounts
and take all the money. Here's what I think happened here. Okay.
Lots of times people think when you're quote unquote on
the account or on the deed. We got another one
(05:28):
coming up that's like this with the deed, they think
now they own it. Okay, And maybe you do, but
maybe you don't either, okay, because a lot of places
are now are now putting people on the account, quote
on the account. But it's more like a power of attorney.
(05:48):
It's a temporary thing. It's an assignment. It's an authorized signer.
And I wonder if that isn't what happened here. There's
another clue. Okay. So that's one thing. You wonder where
you really were these really joint accounts. Maybe they were,
maybe they were not. Okay, That's one thing. The second
(06:10):
thing has to do with Mom was on a loan account,
a loan account with the child who says there was
a joint account. Now, if you owe money to a
bank or a credit union or a whoever, right, the worst, dumbest, baddest,
(06:31):
not smart thing you can do is have any money
on deposit on deposit with that organization as well. You
don't deposit where you borrow. And the reason you don't
is there's this concept of offset. So if you owe
money to a bank or whatever, all they have to
(06:53):
do is get a little bit nervous about your ability
to repay and they can take your accounts to offset
the account. Now, in this case, what we're saying is
there's all these joint accounts, right, and there's a loan account,
a loan account with the kid who says that they're
(07:15):
joint accounts. At first I was thinking, oh, this is
one of those where it wasn't really a joint account, right.
It wasn't a joint account. It was the authorized signer,
and you thought it was so that when mom died. Right,
when mom died, then it's not a joint account any
You don't have any authority anymore. And sister in law,
(07:36):
who's the executor under the will comes in and gets
the money that maybe that still happened, or maybe it didn't.
Maybe it really was a joint account. Okay, but you
owe money to the credit union. Where was it doesn't
say if it was a bank or what, it doesn't matter,
depository institution. So what they did was they said, well,
(07:58):
wait a second, you're joint on all these accounts. Mom
is joint on your loan. Mom has now died. Now
we're getting nervous in the service about you being able
to pay this back. So now what we're gonna do
is we're gonna take all of your money that's on
deposit any which way we can do it to pay
(08:18):
off the loan account. I'm gonna bet you that that's
what happened. You know, it'd be nice if, you know,
if you could talk to the people who wrote the emails,
so you could say, oh, here's what happened, this is
what happened. Whatever you can't okay, But there's two possibilities,
and maybe there's a combination of these as well. Maybe
some were joined accounts and were not joint account and
(08:39):
says executor allows to close all the accounts and take
all the money. I'm gonna bet that that didn't happen.
I'm gonna bet that the bank or the credit union
offset the loan with the deposits, which is why you
what what what? You never borrow where you deposit, because
(09:01):
if they get worried about you, if they get concerned
that you're not going to pay it back, they're going
to seize the money. I could tell you a horror story,
I mean horror stories where people wrote checks to the
irs to pay off their back taxes and then the
money got seized out of the checking account because the
fact that they were paying off the irs made the
(09:22):
bank nervous. That was what made the bank nervous, and
then they seized the money and the checks to the
irs bounced. I mean it can offset. Is the concept. Okay,
if you got money on deposit, and you borrowed money
without going to court, without defaulting you on the loan
whatever it's written in there, read your fine print, which
(09:42):
of course nobody does. But it's in there that the
bank can offset. It's a common law thing. It's been
upheld a million times. They can do that, all right,
so don't you do that. But in a situation like this,
did the executor really go get joint accounts. Probably not.
I bet you there was a mix. I bet you
(10:03):
it was a mix of authorized signer and offset under
the loan. So this really would have been confusing if
the if they hadn't mentioned the loan. But I think
that's what's I think that's what's actually going on here.
So but this is a typical you know, when people
(10:23):
do this. Why did they do this? The idea of
doing this sort of thing was to avoid was to
avoid actually doing a plan right. If this had been
done correctly, there wouldn't be any question. And now we've
got you know, in laws arguing with each other, and
probably she's arguing with her brother and blah blah. It's
(10:44):
a mess. You're leaving a You do this kind of
thing to your kids, You're leaving them a mess. Don't
do it. Please. You're listening to the David Carrier Show.
I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
This hour of the David Carrier Show is pro bono,
So call in now at seven seven four twenty four,
twenty four. This is the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Wellcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. This is uh, this is a
shortcuts that lead to long delays, and you know, take
the shortcut right off the top of the Himalayas David
Carrier Show, give us a call. I don't just sixty
one six seven seven seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
(11:31):
That's six one six seven seven four twenty four twenty
four will get your question, comment or concern on the air.
You know, it's amazing what people will do to avoid
actually getting it done right. You know what I mean.
I mean, you know, well, uncle Charlie did it. So
(11:52):
you work your whole life and you buy a house
and you pay it off, and you have all those
mortgage payments and all the rest of it right, and
take you just a little bit of time, a little
bit of investment to get it done, to get it
done right right, It would take something to get it
done right, and you won't do it. You work for
forty years to pay off the goddamn excuse me to
(12:13):
pay off the mortgage. You made all the payments, and
now you're gonna you're gonna cheap out and leave a
disaster for your kids. Okay, I guess it makes sense. Anyway,
let's get let's get to some of these. Here we go.
Here's it going. We added our daughter onto the deed
of our home. If something happens to us, will she
(12:35):
become owner of the home. My husband is the only
one on the mortgage. That's kind of she might be
the only one on the note, but I bet you
signed off on the mortgage. I was added on the deed.
There you go. We added our daughter to the deed
as an intra family transfer. I don't even know what
that means. Does that mean intra family? I mean, I
(12:56):
guess you're all members of the family. I guess I
mean leave it. I mean in English, that's what it means.
But it doesn't mean anything any other way. Will she
have to go to probate or pay more in taxes
if something is to happen to us. Well, here's the thing.
The Michigan Supreme Court was pretty clear back in the
(13:17):
day that no, you're not going to uncap the value
of the property. So she's not going to have to
pay more in capital gain taxes. She didn't buy the house,
and so the irs is going to give her a
step up basis on the properties. Probably the question is,
and this is how people. We added her to we
put her name on the d we added her to
(13:39):
the property. Blah blah. You have no idea what that means.
What does that mean? Remember what the bank account? Oh
we put them on the bank account. Oh yeah, did
they have signature authority? Did they actually own the money?
Was there a gift when you did that? I don't
know who knows? It depends. So you got to actually
read this stuff. When somebody says, oh, all we did
(14:03):
was all we did?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Was?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
You know, how do you think that's gonna work? Why
would you think that that would work? What in your life?
Think about it? What in your life was easy? What
in your life was Oh it was no big deal? Right?
Was it no big deal to pay off the mortgage?
Was it no big deal? To pick the house? Was
(14:27):
it no big deal? To do the plumbing? Was it
no big deal? Was all this no big deal? And
what makes you think it's going to be no big
deal at the end of the day. Oh, we just
have to do this, We just do this, We just
do that. It's you know, I understand and I sympathize
that we would like it to be easy, would like
it to be simple. Of course, who doesn't. But you
(14:48):
get stuff like this, you don't even know what's going on.
They think they're telling you something, and so that they
could ask a question when you have to go to probate,
you might. You know, there's a way to do it
as joint tenant with full rights of survivor that you wouldn't,
but maybe you will. Maybe you did it as tenants
in common. Maybe you literally just put her name on it.
(15:09):
If you did, it's probably tenants in common. Or if
you did joint tenants and then you did a trust
and then you name somebody else, okay, which breaks the
joint tenancy. So there are ways to do this correctly.
There are ways to do it slap dash, you know,
(15:29):
what can you say? I don't know. Do you serve
turkey roll at Thanksgiving? You know? If you get one
of those, you know, this turkey role, you can buy it.
It's processed turkey, right and it comes in illuminum pan.
Throw it in the oven. If that's your idea of Thanksgiving,
then this is your idea of state planning. It's like
you didn't think about all the things that need to
(15:51):
be thought about to the point where you don't really
understand what it was you did okay? And I'm just saying,
why do you think we do so many workshops? Why
do we spend the time? Why is it a good
idea to be together with a you know, you guys
gang up on us, gang up on the attorney, right,
all the different families asking questions. It's a lot of fun, frankly,
(16:13):
but what it tells you. One of the things that
I've learned from that, from doing the from doing the
uh the workshop model. You know, all the way through
all the questions that people have that you thought you
already dealt with, right, you already you thought everybody understands this, right,
you think people understand it, and then it turns out
(16:35):
that nobody understood it. Right when you're talking about how
this works or how that works, you think people got it.
But it's not easy stuff, and we do it all
day long. You don't. And so it's always nice with
that workshop to have as you go through the process,
not just the first thing, but as you go through
the process, to have other people who are willing to
(16:56):
raise their hand and say, I don't get it, what
what the hell are you talking about? Right? And then
it's it's it's it is humbling. I have to say
very Uh. I wouldn't say humiliating because that's not right,
but it is humbling where you think, well, I was
so great in explaining all this, and then it turns
(17:17):
out that you didn't really communicate a lot of stuff.
You try it, I mean, we really, but then you
get a question that indicates that, no, we didn't communicate it.
So that's one of the things you really like about
that workshop model. I mean, you know, you go through
the stuff and you think, how do we miss that?
It's like, we didn't miss it, but I mean it's there,
(17:40):
but we obviously didn't get it through. We didn't make
that point, so that was a question. Anyway, let's get
this one. He knocked this one out in two minutes.
Can my name be removed from my boyfriend's life estate
and another be added my son's dad we were never married,
named me remainderment on his life estate deed? The hell
(18:03):
does that mean? Life estate deed? Might be a ladybird deed,
and it might be that he's giving her the property
if when he dies, right, I want my name removed
and possibly our son's name put on it. Well, he
can remove it anytime he wants, and you don't have
to take it anyway because you don't have anything right now.
(18:23):
All you have is if he dies without making any changes,
then you might get the house. I think that's what's
going on here. If I pass away before my son's dad,
will our son have to go through probate to get
the house. Well, you're not going to get the house
if you die first. I'm pretty sure that this is
a enhanced They didn't put all the words in, but
(18:44):
I think it's a life estate deed. I think it's
a ladybird deed. Well son have to go to probate
at the house. Well, it depends on what Dad does
with it. Your boyfriend, because it's your boyfriend's house. You
don't own it, you don't even have any interest in it.
I bet you obviously can't see the deal. I don't
know why he didn't just put both our names instead
(19:05):
of just mine. Well, he didn't do it because he
didn't want to give you the house. He didn't put
he didn't he didn't do a joint tenancy. Okay, remember
we had before, the joint tendency where you both own
it at the same time. He didn't do that because
he didn't want to give you the house. You're not
in control, you don't actually have an interest in it. Okay,
(19:28):
it's his house. That's the deal. I almost guarantee you
that's the deal. I don't know why he didn't put
both our names on it, because he didn't want to
give you anything. He wanted to keep complete control, and
he did. And the idea is that the only time
that you're going to get the house is if he dies,
then you would get it. Okay. That's why it's only
(19:50):
your name on it. There's no point in putting his
name on it because after he dies, he's dead. You know,
why would you put his name on it? You wouldn't.
Okay that I believe that's what's going on with this one,
So be careful of those lady bird deeds. You've been
listening to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier, your
family's personal attorney.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
David's got the how too you're looking for. Just call
seven seven twenty four. This is the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Welcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. We've got Peggy on the line. Hello, Peggy,
Welcome to the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Hi, how are you doing.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Having them all?
Speaker 3 (20:40):
I have a question. One of my siblings is the
POA and takes care of my mom and another siblings executor.
And okay, my mother has requested her paperwork from her
lawyer and they won't. He won't give it to her.
And what yeah, yeah, so is their family friends the
(21:02):
lawyers talk to a couple of my siblings and not
not the po A, the executor of another sister, and
they are causing a big problem. So I'm just trying
to figure out basically, let's back up.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Let's let's back up just a minute. Your mom, your
mom did it? Now when you say po A power
of attorney, I'm guessing what you mean is healthcare power
of attorney with one right, No, what you should do
is you should have one person mhm. Okay, So it's
one person who's got health care and finances, is that right?
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Okay, So that's not I mean, that's not suspicious, right there.
I mean that's not uncommon. So I mean it's not uncommon.
So okay, But but the lawyer won't give the paperwork
to the client.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Is that what I'm understanding, yes, because my mother's any reason.
They just think that my my the sibling that's taking
care of my mother, doesn't make good choices. It's it's
just a family thing. And so he knows a couple
of my siblings and is siding with them, and my
(22:15):
brothers called him out on it. It's just a mess.
So I'm trying to figure.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Out is mom competent at this point? Is Mom competent?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yes she is, but they're saying she's.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And he won't give her her own documents.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
They won't and so yeah, I know, and I know,
and so you know, she wanted to leave my brother
the house, and they and that's part of the problem.
So that because she's been he's been taking care for
for years and he's dedicated himself to her and then
you know, can work some or whatever. So they you know,
(22:50):
so they don't want him to do that. So they've
told the lawyer and he's it's just a mess.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And so by they, you mean the person who has
the power of attorney.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
No, like the one that's the executor and the and
the lawyer.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, that's what I mean. The executor the house.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
She wants to leave the house to her her son
the power of attorney, and so she was going to
do that, and then they talked to her, and the
lawyer talked to her, and the executor talked her and
convinced her not to. And now she she told my
brother this is what happened several months ago, and so
that she still wants to, but she can't get the paperwork.
They've even tried to get another lawyer. The lawyer it's
(23:35):
a small town. The lawyer knows the other lawyer. They
go to the same church. And you know, so he's
trying to figure out what to do because she he's
just trying to do what she wants and trying to
help her, you know, get this information so she can
go meet with somebody.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Well, right, I know, okay, so small town when he
washes the other sort of thing is what it sounds like,
you know. Okay, So let's let's just let's get real
(24:09):
when it comes to what's okay, what should happen If
you've got a competent client, you give them their documents,
as kind of simple as that. Right now, there may
be so anything that's not that that isn't that way,
that's bogus. I mean that's not that's not how it's
supposed to be. Okay, So so there's wrongfulness. I mean,
that's wrong right there. Okay, you should They should be
(24:32):
getting their documents. I mean that's that's just the way
it is. That's the way it's supposed to be. So
should your mom get her documents? Yes, she should get
her documents. I mean should you be able to change
your documents to whatever she wants to change it to. Yes,
she wants to leave your brother the house because for
whatever reason, it wouldn't be compensation. Okay, you can't do
(24:53):
it like that because otherwise he's a taxable income to
him and all the rest. It's a mess. But you
can certainly leave it to him after he dies, just
because that beg.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Pardon right, But the deed, she has the deed and
the house is paid for and everything. Can and you
were talking about deeds, can they can another lawyer change
the deed and put his name on it. I know
then that causes tax issues, but I want to time
to figure out the best way to do it.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Is it property in Michigan or.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Is it somewhere else in Kentucky?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
In Kentucky? Okay, So the short answer is there may
be property tax issues. There are property tax issues in
Michigan on how you do this stuff. Okay, so you
got to do it correctly. You know you heard me
say that before. So so that's gonna be done right.
But the uh mom can deed the property to whomever
(25:52):
she chooses, and that would be a sort of a
blunt force trauma. You know, I'm just going to do
it like this. I just want him to get it,
and I'm dating it over right now. Now here's the
the what's the value of the property any idea?
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Oh, it's hundred thousand or so?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Okay, okay, and I'm taking I take it that brother's
living at home. He doesn't have a lot of income anyway,
right because he's.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Taking care of her. And he said he works twenty cans.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I get that. Yeah, I get that.
But his income, his taxabile income is low. So his
cap if he sells the property, okay, his capital gain
tax rate is likely to be zero. You know, he's
got less than right around fifty thousand dollars a year
of income. You know, he's not going to have any
taxable income. It's going to be his his his capital
(26:46):
gain taxory it's gonna be zero. So who cares about
the taxes? What difference does it make plus plus if
he lives there for two years? No, I get it,
I get it. But but you know, if you're thinking about, okay,
what could go wrong here? What could be additional expense?
One of the things you got to be thinking about is, well,
what if I sell the property? See if mom dies
(27:06):
and he gets the property and he sells it, there
isn't gonna be any tax, because that's what we call
stepped up basis. But if his income is low enough anyway,
and it doesn't have to be that low, he's not
gonna be paying any long term capital gain tax anyway.
If he holds onto it for two years plus, he
gets forgiveness of over a quarter million dollars a gain anyway.
(27:29):
So that so tax reasons would not be a reason
not to deed the property to him. But here would
be a reason if you need the property to him now,
if you gift it now and mom given her age,
if she needs long term care and she needs to
qualify for the Medicaid, now, they're going to come after.
(27:51):
They're gonna say, oh, we're not paying for you. Okay,
We're not gonna pay for you because you divested the house. Okay.
And unlike Mission okay, and unlike Michigan, Kentucky's one of
those states that puts a lean on the house to
get paid back to medicaid. I got another one. Well,
I mean this is I've got another one coming up
with that kind of issue, right, which we don't confront
(28:14):
in Michigan because it's it's only if it goes through probate.
But you'd want to look into that. There's no way
the lawyers shouldn't be given your mom the documents. That's
just absurd. And if they persist, then you got to
go to court. You just got to do that. You
got to get someone from the big city, you know,
to get down to the small town and kind of
(28:34):
knock their heads a little bit. That's just absurd.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, the only thing they have is her will. She
could go and do another will cheaper than going to court. Absolutely,
That's what I told my brother, Okay, I just want.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
To I wouldn't do a will either. I wouldn't do
a will either. I do the trust and then that
way nobody finds out until it's too late. Oh, you know,
and you're not in probate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely
do a trust in this case. I mean I I
that's my go to anyway because it just makes you know,
in most situations, that's what makes sense. But remember, probate
(29:06):
is the lawsuit that you file against yourself for the
benefit of your creditors. If you do a will, now
you've got to go forward into court. Right. If you
do the trust, now they have to drag you into court.
D you see, very different, so you get it. Yeah,
(29:27):
there's another reason why we like doing the trust. Yes,
all right, Yeah, you can follow up, you know, give
us a call at the office if you if you
have any more questions or if you know, as it
goes down the line, more than happy to help. Okay,
all right, well, thank you, Peggy. You bet you You've
been listening to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
(29:47):
your famili's personal attorney.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
David's perking and working and taking your calls. Now this
is the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Welcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney, inviting you to go to the
website David Carry your law. Squish that alltogether. Dot com
dot com talk to the AI robot there or whatever
the heck you want to call it. It is pretty useful,
I have to say. And we've gotten quite a few
(30:20):
people actually asking you questions and stuff. So you know,
you might you might like it, you might hate it.
I don't know. But it does talk to you. You
can if you have a microphone and speakers on your
laptop or whatever. You got to click the right buttons,
and that can be a hassle, of course, but it's
(30:42):
either that or you can. It'll type it a question,
it'll answer you, you know, give you a bunch of
information and it's not just and it actually is good information,
you know what I mean. It's actually kind of useful there.
So give it a give it a try. You might
like it. If you hate it, let me know that too,
and that would be fine. So here's another one of
(31:03):
our emails. Should we get an EI in for that's
an employer identification number, a tax payer identification number for diseased?
I think they mean deceased brothers of state, no will,
brothers property in probate in Kansas? Why not? Small oil
checks still coming in should be cashed and his property
(31:25):
tax should be paid, not pursuing anything else because state
wants seventy two thousand back for Medicaid. This is a
big surprise for a lot of folks. You know, Social
Security doesn't want its money back when you're dead. Medicare
doesn't want its money back when you're dead. Okay, Medicaid
wants its money back when you're dead. You paid for it.
(31:46):
I mean, where do you think they got the money?
I mean, this is what drives me nuts. It's like,
where do you think the government got the money to
pay for the long term care? The answer is the
same place that got the money to pay for Social
Security and Medicare. It got it from you. But now
they want it back, but only if you go through probate.
(32:08):
Now in Kansas, you know who knows? Most other states
forty plus other states will put a lean on your
property when you apply for the Medicaid. Michigan doesn't do that.
Michigan says, Hey, if you're dumb enough to go through probate,
we're gonna come after your stuff. Hey, guess what, We're
coming after your stuff if you go through probate, maybe
you should do a trust. Now what do you think.
(32:29):
But if you go through probate with a will, then
we're coming after your stuff. That's what that's the deal. Okay.
Now in Kansas. Now they're coming after the guy's stuff.
And he owes seventy two thousand dollars, which is a
which is only about less than six months of long
term care. So we didn't need it that long. Five
six months of long term care, you'll run up seventy
(32:51):
two thousand like nothing. So okay, so that's the deal.
But here's my concern. They're getting these small oil checks.
What does that mean? Does that mean that the family
is cashing these checks says should be cashed and property
tax should be paid. Why you're not gonna get anything
(33:13):
out of it anyway, if the property is really worth
less than seventy two thousand dollars, And if you cash
these checks and you take the money, now you're in
trouble because the money, that money belongs to the state,
the assets in his estate right before they come to
the beneficiaries. You got to pay the bills and stuff first,
(33:35):
administrative expenses. Sure, okay, at the end of it, then
you've got to pay You got to pay the state. Now,
here's the thing. What you should be doing here is
not just ignoring it. Says not sure if property is
worth that, should we just let it go? No? Absolutely
not just let it go? And here's why. And now
(33:59):
you're gonna have to find a lawyer who understands how
this stuff works. Okay, that can be a challenge. And
you've got to do this in Kansas. So I can't
help you. But you got to find somebody who understands
how it works. Because in probate, right, administrative costs come
off the top, allowances come off the top. I don't
know what the allowances are in Kansas, Okay, So you
(34:20):
got to get somebody in Kansas to do this. But
the point is that the attorney that you hire to
find out whether or not you should let it go
can get paid from the sale of the house. You
don't have to write the check. You don't have to
give them any money. You shouldn't. Okay, maybe they want
(34:42):
something up front, but then you can reimburse whatever. I mean,
you can work it out. The point is that before
the state gets its money right and now you're going
to be shocked by this, shocked and surprised, the lawyer
gets his money or her money. Right, lawyer gets their
money first, You, as the executor of the estate, get
(35:06):
your money even before the lawyer gets their money. Okay,
so we pay. The top priority is administration of the estate.
So don't just let it go. You might as well
find out what's going on, right, and you can offload
that most of it to the attorney. Let them figure
it out. Okay. Now, maybe it turns out that maybe
(35:30):
it turns out that there's not enough money there to
pay the bills and all the right, Okay, fine, fine,
it didn't cost you anything. Should not have cost you anything,
because the lawyer gets paid from the proceeds of the estate,
and then if there's leftovers after that, after the bills
are paid. So first of all, you pay the administrative expenses,
(35:52):
then you pay any debts, then you pay the state.
Then whatever is left, if there's anything left, goes to
the beneficiaries. My point is that to find out is
an administrative expense, and you can find out right. Let
the lawyer collect the money from the sale of the house.
(36:13):
Let the realtor collect their money from the sale of
the house. What do you care if there's nothing there.
There's nothing there but it could be that the house
is worth you know, I get more clients. Tell me
what's your house's worth? Oh, one hundred and twenty five
thousand dollars? One hundred thousand dollars. I'm like, really, would
you sell me your house to say, oh, hey, I'll
(36:34):
write your check right now for one hundred thousand. I
don't know where I get the money, but you know
I could write you know, let me write you a
check for one hundred thousand dollars right now. I'll buy
your house. Oooh no, I don't want to sell it
for you know, of course you don't. You can't buy
anything for less than a quarter million. And that's a shock, right,
you're looking. So the idea and I don't know, Kansas,
(36:54):
but the idea that there's a house out there that
you can actually live in for seventy two thousand dollars
strikes me as crazy. I doubt it. So you might
as well find out, right, it won't cost you anything.
So if you're you're going to love the one who's died, right,
and there's some property there, but the state is saying, oh,
we're going to take the money and blah blah. Well,
(37:16):
at least Let the lawyer do their thing, okay, because
it will not cost you, should not cost you a dime.
Let them take it out of the estate, even if
the state of Kansas or wherever is in deficit, even
if there's only fifty thousand left and they have a
claim for seventy two. Right, that lawyer that you hired
(37:40):
to do the estate is going to get paid first
from those proceeds. Right. So I'm all against people just
writing things off and I'll just forget about it, blah blah.
In a situation like this, you're probably going to be able.
You're probably going to be fine. You should be fine,
and you shouldn't be out of pocket on the thing.
That's the that's the thing. There's so much of this
(38:02):
stuff where once you look into it, it's really well,
you know, I always say it's not as bad as
it seems. It's worse, And in many ways it is worse. Right,
what's going on with the long term care and all that.
It's worse than you can imagine. Okay, you wouldn't think
(38:22):
it could be this bad, and yet it is. But
the answer is not to close your eyes, right and
just to oh, I'm just going to do a ladybird
deed or you know you need to take it seriously,
is what I'm saying, and that's what we do at
the workshops. But you've been listening to the David Carrier Show.
I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney, looking forward to
(38:44):
seeing you in Muskegan, Kalamazoo, Holland or Grand Rapids at
one of our three Secrets workshops.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
You've been listening to the David Carrier Show a lively
discussion addressing your questions and concerns, but not legal advice.
There is a big difference. So when making decisions that
affect your family, your property, or yourself, the best advice
is to seek good advice specific to your unique needs.
If you missed any of today's show, or would like
additional information about the law offices of David Carrier, please
(39:28):
visit Davidcarrier Law dot com.
He served at the Pentagon as an army jag. He
graduated from Notre Dame and has two law degrees from
Boston University and Georgetown University. He's been practicing law for
over thirty years. He's your family's personal attorney. It's time
for the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello, and welcome to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney, and you have found the place
where we talk about a state planning, elder law, real
estate and business loan. So give us a call. Why
don't you six six seven seven four twenty four twenty four,
that's sixty one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
(00:44):
Will get your question, comment or concern on the air.
In the meantime, we're going to be racking through some emails, rocketing,
rocketing through the emails. We also do workshops. As you know,
we have a whole new well say now it's been
doing it for a couple of years now process that
(01:05):
it's a workshop based process, so that you'll be working
with you'll be in class with other families as you
move through the process. You know, one of the one
of our concerns was the so here's the thing. When
you go one on one with an attorney or whatever, right,
and I'm not talking about this online stuff, you know,
(01:26):
it's it is what it is. You might as well,
you know, buy some blanks and fill those in, go ahead,
But when you go one on one, it's expensive. It's
really expensive because you're one on one with the attorney, right,
you got to do it like that, if you do
it like that. So what we did, starting a few
years ago, was figure out, well, how can we bring
(01:49):
the cost down? And the answer was what if we didn't?
What if we took everything we could do in a
group in a workshop and put it in a workshop.
So that's what we've done. So instead of come to
a workshop, find out what's going on, right, and then
you're one on one, which is kind of pressure, I guess, right,
(02:09):
instead of that, you're working with a group all the
way through, so you're not alone. You're with other people
who are got exactly the same sorts of issues that
you do, not the same issues. And we don't get
into personal stuff. Okay, but there's so much of the education,
there's so much of the process, right that rather than
(02:29):
deliver that across the table, we deal with it in
a room. And here's the other thing that's really that
has turned out to be very very nice about it
is other people will have questions. I keep hearing this,
Oh I never would have asked that question, but so
and so did and that was great. And because you're
working together, right, it really reduces you know, how everybody
(02:52):
hates coming to lawyers. I get it, you know, we're
scary and all the rest. Okay, fine, but there's strength
in numbers, right, So what if you were there with
other people just like you, Other people who have a
four to one K, other people who you know are
paying off their house or paid it off or whatever,
other people with kids, other people who are confronting the
(03:13):
same sorts of issues that you are. What if the
whole process, except for where we need to be one
on one, except where we need to be confidential, and
all the rest. And we've we've figured out what that is,
and we are you know, that is very private, very personal,
one on one, but everything that doesn't have to be
that way. What if we did that in a group. Okay,
(03:36):
so it's not you know, you don't feel like, oh,
that's not a good question. Someone else will ask the question,
or if you ask the question, other people will be
grateful that you asked the question. Okay, it works out.
That's what we're doing with these workshops now. It's a
different way than we Well, we did it the other
way for thirty years, you know, kind of the the
(03:57):
traditional you know, one on one and blah blah blah,
and we you know, that was great, that was fine,
But there's a better way to do it. I think
the workshop is the way now. If you have specific,
you know, very specific needs, Okay, we're gonna deal with
those in your one on one meetings because we do
that as well, right, so that we make sure that
(04:20):
it's exactly what you want, not one of five choices
off a computer screen or something like that, but actually
something that you need in your family situation. Okay, But
I'm just saying the workshop model is the way to go,
and we are doing those, you know, every week in Holland, Muskegan, Kalamazoo,
and Grand Rapids. So go to the website Davidcarrier Law
(04:44):
dot com. Sign up. How is it legal? Here's a question.
How is it legal for the executor of an estate
to close all joint accounts plus a personal account of
the sibling on joint account. My mother passed and had
will named sister in law executor. Mother had almost no
debts and was on joint account plus a loan account
(05:05):
with me. I also had a personal checking account and
saving account. The Federal Credit Union froze all accounts upon
her passing. Then executor was allowed to close all accounts
and take all the money. Here's what I think happened here. Okay.
Lots of times people think when you're quote unquote on
the account or on the deed. We got another one
(05:28):
coming up that's like this with the deed, they think
now they own it. Okay, And maybe you do, but
maybe you don't either, okay, because a lot of places
are now are now putting people on the account, quote
on the account. But it's more like a power of attorney.
(05:48):
It's a temporary thing. It's an assignment. It's an authorized signer.
And I wonder if that isn't what happened here. There's
another clue. Okay. So that's one thing. You wonder where
you really were these really joint accounts. Maybe they were,
maybe they were not. Okay, That's one thing. The second
(06:10):
thing has to do with Mom was on a loan account,
a loan account with the child who says there was
a joint account. Now, if you owe money to a
bank or a credit union or a whoever, right, the worst, dumbest, baddest,
(06:31):
not smart thing you can do is have any money
on deposit on deposit with that organization as well. You
don't deposit where you borrow. And the reason you don't
is there's this concept of offset. So if you owe
money to a bank or whatever, all they have to
(06:53):
do is get a little bit nervous about your ability
to repay and they can take your accounts to offset
the account. Now, in this case, what we're saying is
there's all these joint accounts, right, and there's a loan account,
a loan account with the kid who says that they're
(07:15):
joint accounts. At first I was thinking, oh, this is
one of those where it wasn't really a joint account, right.
It wasn't a joint account. It was the authorized signer,
and you thought it was so that when mom died. Right,
when mom died, then it's not a joint account any
You don't have any authority anymore. And sister in law,
(07:36):
who's the executor under the will comes in and gets
the money that maybe that still happened, or maybe it didn't.
Maybe it really was a joint account. Okay, but you
owe money to the credit union. Where was it doesn't
say if it was a bank or what, it doesn't matter,
depository institution. So what they did was they said, well,
(07:58):
wait a second, you're joint on all these accounts. Mom
is joint on your loan. Mom has now died. Now
we're getting nervous in the service about you being able
to pay this back. So now what we're gonna do
is we're gonna take all of your money that's on
deposit any which way we can do it to pay
(08:18):
off the loan account. I'm gonna bet you that that's
what happened. You know, it'd be nice if, you know,
if you could talk to the people who wrote the emails,
so you could say, oh, here's what happened, this is
what happened. Whatever you can't okay, But there's two possibilities,
and maybe there's a combination of these as well. Maybe
some were joined accounts and were not joint account and
(08:39):
says executor allows to close all the accounts and take
all the money. I'm gonna bet that that didn't happen.
I'm gonna bet that the bank or the credit union
offset the loan with the deposits, which is why you
what what what? You never borrow where you deposit, because
(09:01):
if they get worried about you, if they get concerned
that you're not going to pay it back, they're going
to seize the money. I could tell you a horror story,
I mean horror stories where people wrote checks to the
irs to pay off their back taxes and then the
money got seized out of the checking account because the
fact that they were paying off the irs made the
(09:22):
bank nervous. That was what made the bank nervous, and
then they seized the money and the checks to the
irs bounced. I mean it can offset. Is the concept. Okay,
if you got money on deposit, and you borrowed money
without going to court, without defaulting you on the loan
whatever it's written in there, read your fine print, which
(09:42):
of course nobody does. But it's in there that the
bank can offset. It's a common law thing. It's been
upheld a million times. They can do that, all right,
so don't you do that. But in a situation like this,
did the executor really go get joint accounts. Probably not.
I bet you there was a mix. I bet you
(10:03):
it was a mix of authorized signer and offset under
the loan. So this really would have been confusing if
the if they hadn't mentioned the loan. But I think
that's what's I think that's what's actually going on here.
So but this is a typical you know, when people
(10:23):
do this. Why did they do this? The idea of
doing this sort of thing was to avoid was to
avoid actually doing a plan right. If this had been
done correctly, there wouldn't be any question. And now we've
got you know, in laws arguing with each other, and
probably she's arguing with her brother and blah blah. It's
(10:44):
a mess. You're leaving a You do this kind of
thing to your kids, You're leaving them a mess. Don't
do it. Please. You're listening to the David Carrier Show.
I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
This hour of the David Carrier Show is pro bono,
So call in now at seven seven four twenty four,
twenty four. This is the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Wellcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. This is uh, this is a
shortcuts that lead to long delays, and you know, take
the shortcut right off the top of the Himalayas David
Carrier Show, give us a call. I don't just sixty
one six seven seven seven seven four twenty four twenty four.
(11:31):
That's six one six seven seven four twenty four twenty
four will get your question, comment or concern on the air.
You know, it's amazing what people will do to avoid
actually getting it done right. You know what I mean.
I mean, you know, well, uncle Charlie did it. So
(11:52):
you work your whole life and you buy a house
and you pay it off, and you have all those
mortgage payments and all the rest of it right, and
take you just a little bit of time, a little
bit of investment to get it done, to get it
done right right, It would take something to get it
done right, and you won't do it. You work for
forty years to pay off the goddamn excuse me to
(12:13):
pay off the mortgage. You made all the payments, and
now you're gonna you're gonna cheap out and leave a
disaster for your kids. Okay, I guess it makes sense. Anyway,
let's get let's get to some of these. Here we go.
Here's it going. We added our daughter onto the deed
of our home. If something happens to us, will she
(12:35):
become owner of the home. My husband is the only
one on the mortgage. That's kind of she might be
the only one on the note, but I bet you
signed off on the mortgage. I was added on the deed.
There you go. We added our daughter to the deed
as an intra family transfer. I don't even know what
that means. Does that mean intra family? I mean, I
(12:56):
guess you're all members of the family. I guess I
mean leave it. I mean in English, that's what it means.
But it doesn't mean anything any other way. Will she
have to go to probate or pay more in taxes
if something is to happen to us. Well, here's the thing.
The Michigan Supreme Court was pretty clear back in the
(13:17):
day that no, you're not going to uncap the value
of the property. So she's not going to have to
pay more in capital gain taxes. She didn't buy the house,
and so the irs is going to give her a
step up basis on the properties. Probably the question is,
and this is how people. We added her to we
put her name on the d we added her to
(13:39):
the property. Blah blah. You have no idea what that means.
What does that mean? Remember what the bank account? Oh
we put them on the bank account. Oh yeah, did
they have signature authority? Did they actually own the money?
Was there a gift when you did that? I don't
know who knows? It depends. So you got to actually
read this stuff. When somebody says, oh, all we did
(14:03):
was all we did?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Was?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
You know, how do you think that's gonna work? Why
would you think that that would work? What in your life?
Think about it? What in your life was easy? What
in your life was Oh it was no big deal? Right?
Was it no big deal to pay off the mortgage?
Was it no big deal? To pick the house? Was
(14:27):
it no big deal? To do the plumbing? Was it
no big deal? Was all this no big deal? And
what makes you think it's going to be no big
deal at the end of the day. Oh, we just
have to do this, We just do this, We just
do that. It's you know, I understand and I sympathize
that we would like it to be easy, would like
it to be simple. Of course, who doesn't. But you
(14:48):
get stuff like this, you don't even know what's going on.
They think they're telling you something, and so that they
could ask a question when you have to go to probate,
you might. You know, there's a way to do it
as joint tenant with full rights of survivor that you wouldn't,
but maybe you will. Maybe you did it as tenants
in common. Maybe you literally just put her name on it.
(15:09):
If you did, it's probably tenants in common. Or if
you did joint tenants and then you did a trust
and then you name somebody else, okay, which breaks the
joint tenancy. So there are ways to do this correctly.
There are ways to do it slap dash, you know,
(15:29):
what can you say? I don't know. Do you serve
turkey roll at Thanksgiving? You know? If you get one
of those, you know, this turkey role, you can buy it.
It's processed turkey, right and it comes in illuminum pan.
Throw it in the oven. If that's your idea of Thanksgiving,
then this is your idea of state planning. It's like
you didn't think about all the things that need to
(15:51):
be thought about to the point where you don't really
understand what it was you did okay? And I'm just saying,
why do you think we do so many workshops? Why
do we spend the time? Why is it a good
idea to be together with a you know, you guys
gang up on us, gang up on the attorney, right,
all the different families asking questions. It's a lot of fun, frankly,
(16:13):
but what it tells you. One of the things that
I've learned from that, from doing the from doing the
uh the workshop model. You know, all the way through
all the questions that people have that you thought you
already dealt with, right, you already you thought everybody understands this, right,
you think people understand it, and then it turns out
(16:35):
that nobody understood it. Right when you're talking about how
this works or how that works, you think people got it.
But it's not easy stuff, and we do it all
day long. You don't. And so it's always nice with
that workshop to have as you go through the process,
not just the first thing, but as you go through
the process, to have other people who are willing to
(16:56):
raise their hand and say, I don't get it, what
what the hell are you talking about? Right? And then
it's it's it's it is humbling. I have to say
very Uh. I wouldn't say humiliating because that's not right,
but it is humbling where you think, well, I was
so great in explaining all this, and then it turns
(17:17):
out that you didn't really communicate a lot of stuff.
You try it, I mean, we really, but then you
get a question that indicates that, no, we didn't communicate it.
So that's one of the things you really like about
that workshop model. I mean, you know, you go through
the stuff and you think, how do we miss that?
It's like, we didn't miss it, but I mean it's there,
(17:40):
but we obviously didn't get it through. We didn't make
that point, so that was a question. Anyway, let's get
this one. He knocked this one out in two minutes.
Can my name be removed from my boyfriend's life estate
and another be added my son's dad we were never married,
named me remainderment on his life estate deed? The hell
(18:03):
does that mean? Life estate deed? Might be a ladybird deed,
and it might be that he's giving her the property
if when he dies, right, I want my name removed
and possibly our son's name put on it. Well, he
can remove it anytime he wants, and you don't have
to take it anyway because you don't have anything right now.
(18:23):
All you have is if he dies without making any changes,
then you might get the house. I think that's what's
going on here. If I pass away before my son's dad,
will our son have to go through probate to get
the house. Well, you're not going to get the house
if you die first. I'm pretty sure that this is
a enhanced They didn't put all the words in, but
(18:44):
I think it's a life estate deed. I think it's
a ladybird deed. Well son have to go to probate
at the house. Well, it depends on what Dad does
with it. Your boyfriend, because it's your boyfriend's house. You
don't own it, you don't even have any interest in it.
I bet you obviously can't see the deal. I don't
know why he didn't just put both our names instead
(19:05):
of just mine. Well, he didn't do it because he
didn't want to give you the house. He didn't put
he didn't he didn't do a joint tenancy. Okay, remember
we had before, the joint tendency where you both own
it at the same time. He didn't do that because
he didn't want to give you the house. You're not
in control, you don't actually have an interest in it. Okay,
(19:28):
it's his house. That's the deal. I almost guarantee you
that's the deal. I don't know why he didn't put
both our names on it, because he didn't want to
give you anything. He wanted to keep complete control, and
he did. And the idea is that the only time
that you're going to get the house is if he dies,
then you would get it. Okay. That's why it's only
(19:50):
your name on it. There's no point in putting his
name on it because after he dies, he's dead. You know,
why would you put his name on it? You wouldn't.
Okay that I believe that's what's going on with this one,
So be careful of those lady bird deeds. You've been
listening to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier, your
family's personal attorney.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
David's got the how too you're looking for. Just call
seven seven twenty four. This is the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Welcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. We've got Peggy on the line. Hello, Peggy,
Welcome to the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Hi, how are you doing.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Having them all?
Speaker 3 (20:40):
I have a question. One of my siblings is the
POA and takes care of my mom and another siblings executor.
And okay, my mother has requested her paperwork from her
lawyer and they won't. He won't give it to her.
And what yeah, yeah, so is their family friends the
(21:02):
lawyers talk to a couple of my siblings and not
not the po A, the executor of another sister, and
they are causing a big problem. So I'm just trying
to figure out basically, let's back up.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Let's let's back up just a minute. Your mom, your
mom did it? Now when you say po A power
of attorney, I'm guessing what you mean is healthcare power
of attorney with one right, No, what you should do
is you should have one person mhm. Okay, So it's
one person who's got health care and finances, is that right?
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Okay, So that's not I mean, that's not suspicious, right there.
I mean that's not uncommon. So I mean it's not uncommon.
So okay, But but the lawyer won't give the paperwork
to the client.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Is that what I'm understanding, yes, because my mother's any reason.
They just think that my my the sibling that's taking
care of my mother, doesn't make good choices. It's it's
just a family thing. And so he knows a couple
of my siblings and is siding with them, and my
(22:15):
brothers called him out on it. It's just a mess.
So I'm trying to figure.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Out is mom competent at this point? Is Mom competent?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yes she is, but they're saying she's.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And he won't give her her own documents.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
They won't and so yeah, I know, and I know,
and so you know, she wanted to leave my brother
the house, and they and that's part of the problem.
So that because she's been he's been taking care for
for years and he's dedicated himself to her and then
you know, can work some or whatever. So they you know,
(22:50):
so they don't want him to do that. So they've
told the lawyer and he's it's just a mess.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And so by they, you mean the person who has
the power of attorney.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
No, like the one that's the executor and the and
the lawyer.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, that's what I mean. The executor the house.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
She wants to leave the house to her her son
the power of attorney, and so she was going to
do that, and then they talked to her, and the
lawyer talked to her, and the executor talked her and
convinced her not to. And now she she told my
brother this is what happened several months ago, and so
that she still wants to, but she can't get the paperwork.
They've even tried to get another lawyer. The lawyer it's
(23:35):
a small town. The lawyer knows the other lawyer. They
go to the same church. And you know, so he's
trying to figure out what to do because she he's
just trying to do what she wants and trying to
help her, you know, get this information so she can
go meet with somebody.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Well, right, I know, okay, so small town when he
washes the other sort of thing is what it sounds like,
you know. Okay, So let's let's just let's get real
(24:09):
when it comes to what's okay, what should happen If
you've got a competent client, you give them their documents,
as kind of simple as that. Right now, there may
be so anything that's not that that isn't that way,
that's bogus. I mean that's not that's not how it's
supposed to be. Okay, So so there's wrongfulness. I mean,
that's wrong right there. Okay, you should They should be
(24:32):
getting their documents. I mean that's that's just the way
it is. That's the way it's supposed to be. So
should your mom get her documents? Yes, she should get
her documents. I mean should you be able to change
your documents to whatever she wants to change it to. Yes,
she wants to leave your brother the house because for
whatever reason, it wouldn't be compensation. Okay, you can't do
(24:53):
it like that because otherwise he's a taxable income to
him and all the rest. It's a mess. But you
can certainly leave it to him after he dies, just
because that beg.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Pardon right, But the deed, she has the deed and
the house is paid for and everything. Can and you
were talking about deeds, can they can another lawyer change
the deed and put his name on it. I know
then that causes tax issues, but I want to time
to figure out the best way to do it.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Is it property in Michigan or.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Is it somewhere else in Kentucky?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
In Kentucky? Okay, So the short answer is there may
be property tax issues. There are property tax issues in
Michigan on how you do this stuff. Okay, so you
got to do it correctly. You know you heard me
say that before. So so that's gonna be done right.
But the uh mom can deed the property to whomever
(25:52):
she chooses, and that would be a sort of a
blunt force trauma. You know, I'm just going to do
it like this. I just want him to get it,
and I'm dating it over right now. Now here's the
the what's the value of the property any idea?
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Oh, it's hundred thousand or so?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Okay, okay, and I'm taking I take it that brother's
living at home. He doesn't have a lot of income anyway,
right because he's.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Taking care of her. And he said he works twenty cans.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I get that. Yeah, I get that.
But his income, his taxabile income is low. So his
cap if he sells the property, okay, his capital gain
tax rate is likely to be zero. You know, he's
got less than right around fifty thousand dollars a year
of income. You know, he's not going to have any
taxable income. It's going to be his his his capital
(26:46):
gain taxory it's gonna be zero. So who cares about
the taxes? What difference does it make plus plus if
he lives there for two years? No, I get it,
I get it. But but you know, if you're thinking about, okay,
what could go wrong here? What could be additional expense?
One of the things you got to be thinking about is, well,
what if I sell the property? See if mom dies
(27:06):
and he gets the property and he sells it, there
isn't gonna be any tax, because that's what we call
stepped up basis. But if his income is low enough anyway,
and it doesn't have to be that low, he's not
gonna be paying any long term capital gain tax anyway.
If he holds onto it for two years plus, he
gets forgiveness of over a quarter million dollars a gain anyway.
(27:29):
So that so tax reasons would not be a reason
not to deed the property to him. But here would
be a reason if you need the property to him now,
if you gift it now and mom given her age,
if she needs long term care and she needs to
qualify for the Medicaid, now, they're going to come after.
(27:51):
They're gonna say, oh, we're not paying for you. Okay,
We're not gonna pay for you because you divested the house. Okay.
And unlike Mission okay, and unlike Michigan, Kentucky's one of
those states that puts a lean on the house to
get paid back to medicaid. I got another one. Well,
I mean this is I've got another one coming up
with that kind of issue, right, which we don't confront
(28:14):
in Michigan because it's it's only if it goes through probate.
But you'd want to look into that. There's no way
the lawyers shouldn't be given your mom the documents. That's
just absurd. And if they persist, then you got to
go to court. You just got to do that. You
got to get someone from the big city, you know,
to get down to the small town and kind of
(28:34):
knock their heads a little bit. That's just absurd.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, the only thing they have is her will. She
could go and do another will cheaper than going to court. Absolutely,
That's what I told my brother, Okay, I just want.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
To I wouldn't do a will either. I wouldn't do
a will either. I do the trust and then that
way nobody finds out until it's too late. Oh, you know,
and you're not in probate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely
do a trust in this case. I mean I I
that's my go to anyway because it just makes you know,
in most situations, that's what makes sense. But remember, probate
(29:06):
is the lawsuit that you file against yourself for the
benefit of your creditors. If you do a will, now
you've got to go forward into court. Right. If you
do the trust, now they have to drag you into court.
D you see, very different, so you get it. Yeah,
(29:27):
there's another reason why we like doing the trust. Yes,
all right, Yeah, you can follow up, you know, give
us a call at the office if you if you
have any more questions or if you know, as it
goes down the line, more than happy to help. Okay,
all right, well, thank you, Peggy. You bet you You've
been listening to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
(29:47):
your famili's personal attorney.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
David's perking and working and taking your calls. Now this
is the David Carrier Show.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Welcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney, inviting you to go to the
website David Carry your law. Squish that alltogether. Dot com
dot com talk to the AI robot there or whatever
the heck you want to call it. It is pretty useful,
I have to say. And we've gotten quite a few
(30:20):
people actually asking you questions and stuff. So you know,
you might you might like it, you might hate it.
I don't know. But it does talk to you. You
can if you have a microphone and speakers on your
laptop or whatever. You got to click the right buttons,
and that can be a hassle, of course, but it's
(30:42):
either that or you can. It'll type it a question,
it'll answer you, you know, give you a bunch of
information and it's not just and it actually is good information,
you know what I mean. It's actually kind of useful there.
So give it a give it a try. You might
like it. If you hate it, let me know that too,
and that would be fine. So here's another one of
(31:03):
our emails. Should we get an EI in for that's
an employer identification number, a tax payer identification number for diseased?
I think they mean deceased brothers of state, no will,
brothers property in probate in Kansas? Why not? Small oil
checks still coming in should be cashed and his property
(31:25):
tax should be paid, not pursuing anything else because state
wants seventy two thousand back for Medicaid. This is a
big surprise for a lot of folks. You know, Social
Security doesn't want its money back when you're dead. Medicare
doesn't want its money back when you're dead. Okay, Medicaid
wants its money back when you're dead. You paid for it.
(31:46):
I mean, where do you think they got the money?
I mean, this is what drives me nuts. It's like,
where do you think the government got the money to
pay for the long term care? The answer is the
same place that got the money to pay for Social
Security and Medicare. It got it from you. But now
they want it back, but only if you go through probate.
(32:08):
Now in Kansas, you know who knows? Most other states
forty plus other states will put a lean on your
property when you apply for the Medicaid. Michigan doesn't do that.
Michigan says, Hey, if you're dumb enough to go through probate,
we're gonna come after your stuff. Hey, guess what, We're
coming after your stuff if you go through probate, maybe
you should do a trust. Now what do you think.
(32:29):
But if you go through probate with a will, then
we're coming after your stuff. That's what that's the deal. Okay.
Now in Kansas. Now they're coming after the guy's stuff.
And he owes seventy two thousand dollars, which is a
which is only about less than six months of long
term care. So we didn't need it that long. Five
six months of long term care, you'll run up seventy
(32:51):
two thousand like nothing. So okay, so that's the deal.
But here's my concern. They're getting these small oil checks.
What does that mean? Does that mean that the family
is cashing these checks says should be cashed and property
tax should be paid. Why you're not gonna get anything
(33:13):
out of it anyway, if the property is really worth
less than seventy two thousand dollars, And if you cash
these checks and you take the money, now you're in
trouble because the money, that money belongs to the state,
the assets in his estate right before they come to
the beneficiaries. You got to pay the bills and stuff first,
(33:35):
administrative expenses. Sure, okay, at the end of it, then
you've got to pay You got to pay the state. Now,
here's the thing. What you should be doing here is
not just ignoring it. Says not sure if property is
worth that, should we just let it go? No? Absolutely
not just let it go? And here's why. And now
(33:59):
you're gonna have to find a lawyer who understands how
this stuff works. Okay, that can be a challenge. And
you've got to do this in Kansas. So I can't
help you. But you got to find somebody who understands
how it works. Because in probate, right, administrative costs come
off the top, allowances come off the top. I don't
know what the allowances are in Kansas, Okay, So you
(34:20):
got to get somebody in Kansas to do this. But
the point is that the attorney that you hire to
find out whether or not you should let it go
can get paid from the sale of the house. You
don't have to write the check. You don't have to
give them any money. You shouldn't. Okay, maybe they want
(34:42):
something up front, but then you can reimburse whatever. I mean,
you can work it out. The point is that before
the state gets its money right and now you're going
to be shocked by this, shocked and surprised, the lawyer
gets his money or her money. Right, lawyer gets their
money first, You, as the executor of the estate, get
(35:06):
your money even before the lawyer gets their money. Okay,
so we pay. The top priority is administration of the estate.
So don't just let it go. You might as well
find out what's going on, right, and you can offload
that most of it to the attorney. Let them figure
it out. Okay. Now, maybe it turns out that maybe
(35:30):
it turns out that there's not enough money there to
pay the bills and all the right, Okay, fine, fine,
it didn't cost you anything. Should not have cost you anything,
because the lawyer gets paid from the proceeds of the estate,
and then if there's leftovers after that, after the bills
are paid. So first of all, you pay the administrative expenses,
(35:52):
then you pay any debts, then you pay the state.
Then whatever is left, if there's anything left, goes to
the beneficiaries. My point is that to find out is
an administrative expense, and you can find out right. Let
the lawyer collect the money from the sale of the house.
(36:13):
Let the realtor collect their money from the sale of
the house. What do you care if there's nothing there.
There's nothing there but it could be that the house
is worth you know, I get more clients. Tell me
what's your house's worth? Oh, one hundred and twenty five
thousand dollars? One hundred thousand dollars. I'm like, really, would
you sell me your house to say, oh, hey, I'll
(36:34):
write your check right now for one hundred thousand. I
don't know where I get the money, but you know
I could write you know, let me write you a
check for one hundred thousand dollars right now. I'll buy
your house. Oooh no, I don't want to sell it
for you know, of course you don't. You can't buy
anything for less than a quarter million. And that's a shock, right,
you're looking. So the idea and I don't know, Kansas,
(36:54):
but the idea that there's a house out there that
you can actually live in for seventy two thousand dollars
strikes me as crazy. I doubt it. So you might
as well find out, right, it won't cost you anything.
So if you're you're going to love the one who's died, right,
and there's some property there, but the state is saying, oh,
we're going to take the money and blah blah. Well,
(37:16):
at least Let the lawyer do their thing, okay, because
it will not cost you, should not cost you a dime.
Let them take it out of the estate, even if
the state of Kansas or wherever is in deficit, even
if there's only fifty thousand left and they have a
claim for seventy two. Right, that lawyer that you hired
(37:40):
to do the estate is going to get paid first
from those proceeds. Right. So I'm all against people just
writing things off and I'll just forget about it, blah blah.
In a situation like this, you're probably going to be able.
You're probably going to be fine. You should be fine,
and you shouldn't be out of pocket on the thing.
That's the that's the thing. There's so much of this
(38:02):
stuff where once you look into it, it's really well,
you know, I always say it's not as bad as
it seems. It's worse, And in many ways it is worse. Right,
what's going on with the long term care and all that.
It's worse than you can imagine. Okay, you wouldn't think
(38:22):
it could be this bad, and yet it is. But
the answer is not to close your eyes, right and
just to oh, I'm just going to do a ladybird
deed or you know you need to take it seriously,
is what I'm saying, and that's what we do at
the workshops. But you've been listening to the David Carrier Show.
I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney, looking forward to
(38:44):
seeing you in Muskegan, Kalamazoo, Holland or Grand Rapids at
one of our three Secrets workshops.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
You've been listening to the David Carrier Show a lively
discussion addressing your questions and concerns, but not legal advice.
There is a big difference. So when making decisions that
affect your family, your property, or yourself, the best advice
is to seek good advice specific to your unique needs.
If you missed any of today's show, or would like
additional information about the law offices of David Carrier, please
(39:28):
visit Davidcarrier Law dot com.
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