Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, and welcome to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney, and you have found the place
where we talk about a state planning, elder.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Law, real estate and business law. So give us a call.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Why don't just six one six seven seven four twenty
four twenty four, that's sixty one six seven seven four
twenty four twenty four will get your question.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Comment or concern on the air. We had a great
week this week.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
We have out visiting folks at the first United Methodist
Church out there in Greenville, and you know, in conversation
with the pastor, kind of a brief conversation actually, but
here's the thing. You know, we talk about this long
term care stuff all the time and the way people
are going broke. In fact, we're talking to another convention
(00:51):
of pastors next weekend. And because it kind of occurred
to me that who knows better than your pastor what's
going on with the in the parish and all the
rest of it in the in the church, who knows
what's going on with their flock speak? And you know,
(01:13):
here we concentrate focus, I guess, on the whole long
term care thing.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
And why do we do that.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Well, we do that because that's how the middle class
is being hollowed out, is being destroyed, is being assaulted.
You know, whatever word you want to use. I'm not
saying it's intentional. I'm just saying, you know, here's the thing.
If you knock a glass off the shelf, right with
milk in it, and you knocked it off the shelf,
(01:43):
did you mean to spill the milk or just knock
the glass? You know what I'm saying, Oh, I didn't
mean to spill the middle mummy. I was just hitting
the glass. It's like, well, wait a second. Natural consequences, right,
And the natural consequence of the way that the long
term care is done in America, and has been done
as long as I've been around, that's thirty five years,
(02:06):
has been to impoverish the middle class. And it falls
on the middle class because the services, the long term
care stuff, if you are not middle class, on the
other end, on the high end of the spectrum, you
can afford it. If you're not middle class, on the
low end of the spectrum, it's free. And it's not free.
(02:27):
Somebody paid for it. And the answer is the people
in the middle paid for it because the people on
the upper end are too smart to pay the taxes.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
They don't see.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
It's the income tax, all right, let's be sure we
understand what's going on here. It's the income tax that
funds the pika, right, your payroll taxes that Social security,
the social programs, social Safety Net is fighting. That's where
the money primarily comes from.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And this is why they're talking about running out of
the trust fund, which really is no trust.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Look it, if.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
You're a trustee for somebody, right and you run the
trust fund the way the federal government runs the Oh,
let's say anything they do, including the Social Security trust Fund,
you'd be in jail.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
So when they start talking, oh, the trust fund is
going to run out in you know, it used to
be forever. I used to be out in the Ron
Reagan redid it back in the eighties. You know, we
projected out until like the twenty forties or something like that,
like forever practically speaking. And now it's down to like,
I don't know, six minutes or seven minutes or I
don't know, something like that. It's it's it's scary. It's like, oh,
(03:39):
we're going to run out of money. Well, what do
you mean we're going to run out of money. We're
gonna run out of money because there won't be any
money left in the in the trust fund. There is
no money in the trust fund. It's a bookkeeping entry.
They spent that money a long time ago, and they
stuck in Iowa. It's like, it's like, do you ever
have a peggy bank? I'm just telling you, you ever
(04:01):
have a piggy bank?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Right?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
And you put money in it? Right?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Why so you could be able to buy Christmas presents
or whatever? All right, you're saving up for a bicycle.
I did that save up for a bicycle? Are you
saving up for your bicycle?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Right?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Which, believe me, have thirty five bucks? Seemed like forever away,
but I got it eventually.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Anyway.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
The point is, what if you didn't put money in
the piggy bank? What if you didn't put your paper
root money in the piggy bank? Okay, what if in
the piggy bank you're stuck in iou saying uh, I'll
give you fifty cents later. That's what so security is.
That's what medicare, medicaid, that's all that. It's a piggy
(04:45):
bank full of IOUs and they're saying, oh, we're gonna
run out.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Of the IOUs. But it's not real money anyway. What
are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Okay, so let's be clear, we understand what's going on.
What's going on? All right, it's a bunch of IOUs
and we're we're going to run out of the IOUs.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So what are you talking? What are you saying? Trust fund?
You better not run.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
If you're a trustee for somebody, you better not run
that situation the way the government runs it's situation. Adult
Protective Services will come a knocking on your door. Right,
Oh oh, a piggy bang full of IOUs. Of course
I've been spending those IOUs, so pretty soon I'm going
(05:32):
to run out of IOUs. Yeah, but there's never any
cash in there to start with. Okay, And how do
they keep the scam going? Well, number one, they whack you.
Every single paycheck you get, you get whacked with the FIKA. Okay,
you pay seven and a half, your employer pays seven
and a half thereabouts, So fifteen percent of us payroll
(05:55):
goes right in to feed that thing, which you can understand.
I guess why why Congress people are so oh boy,
look at all the money.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Let's give it to somebody else who'll vote for.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Us, right right now, right now, they're trying to cut
back on people who should not be getting it, and
there's this huge.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Outcry, Oh, you're horrible.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
You're not spending money we don't have on people who
didn't earn it, who didn't pay in. Right, you're not
giving our money away for free, And now we're upset.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
What how? What?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
How did that work? But that's that's the world we're
living in. And if you're a middle class person, you've
been paying in with every freaking paycheck you ever got,
starting when you were washing dishes or bagging groceries or
anything else where.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It was sort of organized.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
In my own case, I've been paying Social Security since
before I was legal to work. You look back on
my work record and I was like fourteen team and
I actually got a job. I think it was like fifteen,
and they said, well, well, we need your work permit,
and like, what do you mean work permit? Yeah, you
(07:11):
know you're underage. You know fifteen, you need you need
to work permit. And I'm like, yeah, but I've been
working at Harney's liquor store over there for the last
couple of years. You know, they have a grocery too.
I was bagging groceries. I was also stacking cases of
beer and you know all that. You know, I actually
worked as a cash here, not just a bag boy.
I was a cashier too.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
And they're like, you.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Were working at a liquor store at thirteen, Like, well,
I wasn't the only one, you know, But I paid
FIKA on every paycheck. That's the thing. I was paid FIKA.
I paid this old security on those paychecks. Okay, so
maybe they don't let you go. As long as you've
had a job, you've been paying for the fiker. And
(07:55):
because there was a nice big pile of money there,
you know, your your tax dollars at work. Mean you're
a congress people mean you're gonna be. They can't stand it.
They can't stand money that's not spent yet, money that
they could spend and they haven't spent.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Oh boy, what do.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You mean we got some money over here? Holy cow,
let's get that spent. Let's get that spent all right,
and now when you need it. Now they're like, oh,
you shouldn't take your Social Security, oh your Medicare now listen.
I don't think they'll ever do anything with your medicare
or your social security. I've said that before, I'll say
(08:33):
it again. The one thing that will cause the middle
class to rise up besides the cold blooded assassination of
one of their cultural icons, you know, one of the
champions of the middle class, that will that'll do it,
you know, kill somebody who everybody recognizes a secular saying
kill that guy. That'll get people upset. Okay, But the
(08:55):
other thing that'll get people upset is miss them with
your so security. Does everybody gets that we paid for that.
Everybody gets that the promise that was made decades ago
when we were little kids, when we took our first job.
We're not going to let them break that because we'll
vote them out of office. And that's the one thing
they're scared of getting voted out. So you don't have
(09:16):
to worry about your SOLFI security or medicare. But the
long term care part of it, the medicaid part of it,
you know, that's what they can get away with. That's
what they're screwing you on. That's why there isn't an
inheritance to be left to the next generation.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
In an environment. Well, we'll talk about with.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
The we'll talk about why it's so much, so much
more important these days. You know, one of my slogans
is screw the kids.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
If you think the estate planning is all about your kids,
you'll die broke. Okay, You'll die broke because you won't
focus on you, you'll focus on the kids.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
You won't figure out how to hang on to your
stuff for you, and you'll die broke.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
That's how it goes.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Look around, it's happening all around you. But if you
plan for you, then there will be leftovers for the kids.
And that's really what this is all about. Making not
the kids, I mean making sure that your money's there
for you, right, keep the promise that you made to yourself,
to your spouse, to your family first and foremost, Okay,
(10:18):
and then then we'll worry about the Then we'll worry
about the kids, but there will be something there for them.
You've been listening to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Welcome back to.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
The David Carrier Show, the show that proves every week
that the bumper music is better than the.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Better than the show itself. One more time that ma'd.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Be good okay, hard, hard to admit, easy to observe.
How much better the music is than the show? Sorry anyway?
Six one six seven seven four, and see you can
make the show better. You could call in right six
one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four. That's
one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four. Will
(11:03):
get your question coming or concern on the air. As
I say, the past week, we've been thinking about churches, right,
and the role of the church in preserving the middle class,
because let's face it, who goes right?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
It's mostly middle class folks. You know what what is?
What is?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
What is planning right? What is planning? What is going
to church? But planning right for the really long haul?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
All right?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
You sacrifice things now for the for the uh, for eternity.
That's a that's a pretty good indication that you might
be planning ahead. Six one six seven seven four twenty
fourth twenty four anyway, the uh. So, yeah, let's go
to church. Let's plan for eternity. But while we are
on this side of the great divide, faith alone does
not save. Hard work saves okay, good works. Remember that
(11:54):
whole conversation. You know what gets you into heaven. Is
it good works or is it or is it faith alone? Well, well,
faith alone, I think. I mean, you can't earn heaven
doesn't work like that. It's not like, oh I did
these things and therefore you know, I'm so good, I'm
entitled good luck for that.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
That's not how it works.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
At the same time, right, what else do they say?
They also say that by their fruits shall ye know them?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Right?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
So what you do is an indication of what you believe,
it seems like to me, And that has been consistent
with people I know who go to church. They tend
to be people who actually work. They tend to be
people who actually care. They tend to have families, can't
They tend to actually do things you know, for other people,
(12:45):
other oriented as you might say. Okay, that's who church
going People's been my experience anyway. And they tend to
be pretty happy folks altogether anyway. So that's all. That's
what I'm saying. That's all good now in talking with
church going people who're talking with the pastors and whatnot.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Oh, we've got.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
We've got Scott on the line. See if you call in,
we'll get right to you. Yes, Scott, how can I help?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Hey, goodmor mister carrier. How are things in your world?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Good morning? Oh I'm just perking and working and having
a ball. We had a whole bunch of kids. It
was a homecoming week, you know, so we had a
more bunch of my son's friends over.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
That was exciting. Perfect.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
But they eventually, eventually, yeah, eventually they settled down on
the sleep soule was good. It was only three o'clock
in the morning.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Oh yeah, well mine made it back at one thirty.
Saw it was a little bit better, I guess than
that's standpoint.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
So there you go. Excellent.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah, how can I help? I have a snare. Then
a couple of questions. Okay, so the scenarios. So Grandpa, grandma,
Grandpa helping. He has an ox doing well, Grandma she's
priority on borrowed time, not doing well. We just don't know,
you know, it could be a month, it could be
two years. But anyways, big difference in health conditions. And
(14:02):
so we moved them into a retirement facility you know
that has different levels of care, something that they chose
to do and right, and then we sold Then we
sold their house. Okay, now, when we sold the house,
we took and put all the proceeds into Grandpa's individual
(14:24):
investment accounts. Okay, so I know. So now we didn't
put any we didn't put anything into with anything with
Grandma's name, and I know that's kind of a divestment
by itself. But then the.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Next transfers, let's be let let me start with you
right there, Transfers between spouses are not investment.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
There's no investment.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Here, okay, okay, So then the next question I have
is what prompted this is that on all of Grandpa's
accounts we changed the beneficiaries and removed everything from Grahama
as a beneficiary and put all the kids instead of
going through a grandma instead of going through the spouse,
(15:04):
and everything is his iras is this particular account that
we open up for the proceeds of the house. One
are the ramifications of taking, if there is any of
taking Grandma off of any benefactor again, and that's just
in case something happens to Grandpa, which we don't anticipate.
But if something wor to happen to Grandpa, everything is
(15:25):
now sitt to go to the kids directly, right.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Right, So you got two, you got two possibilities. Grandma
needs long term care, right, Grandma doesn't need long four.
Grandma needs it, doesn't need it. Grandpa needs it, doesn't
need it. Grandpa dies first, Grandma dies first.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Okay. Now, if Grandma.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Gets to the point where she needs skilled care, right,
you don't qualify for the Benevolent Fund at the long
term care facility, at the continuity of care facility, you
won't qualify for that unless you qualify for the Medicaid.
So we got to get Grandma qualified for Medicaid before
she's going to qualify for the Benevolent Okay, let's just
(16:08):
be clear about that. Now, If if you believe, if
you believe that Grandma is dying, okay, imminent death, right,
then what so here's the thing, all right, And I
hate to say it, but it's true. Death is a
planning opportunity. Okay, it sounds terrible, but it's true. Death
(16:30):
is a planning opportunity. If I put everything in Grandma's name,
I can't move the IRA. I can't move the IRA.
I just wouldn't do it. How much is in the
IRA ballpark for me?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
A couple hundred thousand, yeah, okay, So.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
I probably leave that with Grandpa anyway, and I would
take I would put the rest of it actually in
Grandma's name, Okay, in Grandma's name if I was convinced
of her imminent death, because when she dies, when she
dies in her will, we can have a trust, Okay,
(17:06):
a trust established by will for Grandpa's benefit. I'm not
giving it to the grandkids because I are the kids
or the grandkids. I don't know what the hell's going
on with you guys, right, But I can put it
into a trust for Grandpa's benefit, which will be off
the table for medicaid purposes, completely off the table. Okay, Okay,
So now you don't know who's gonna die first, and
(17:29):
there's an element of crystal ball here, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So, but the idea that I would leave everything, I
would put everything in Grandpa's name. See, if Grandpa dies
and it all goes to the kids, then the kids,
if they choose to, can help out Grandma. But now
the problem is like, like, how old are you guys?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
They're mid eighties. The next generation is, you know, fifties.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you guys aren't spring chicken either, right,
So I really.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Haven't well you're not sorry.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But you haven't protected it yet.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Now, if you if you did what we always do,
which is we always leave the proceeds when they go
to the kids, we always wrap it in the trust
for the kid's benefit, then.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
It will not count. It for the kids.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Car accident, divorce, student loans, medicaid, whatever, it won't count.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
So at a minimum, what we should be doing is
if you're going to give it to the kids, which okay,
if you're going to do that, but and then hope
that the kids use the money for grandma's benefit. But
the way you do that is you leave it to
the kids in trust. Now my way of doing I
tell you what. We've got thirty seconds left, So do
(18:49):
you mind hanging on through the news and we'll come
back to this.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
I'll hang on. I give you one clarification, yeah, yeah, please.
We do have a we do have an irrevocable trust
that was set up years ago and we actually made
which is for the benefit of the kids. We made
we made all the the designated beneficiary in the counse
we're talking about to the trust, not directly to the kids.
(19:14):
Everything passes through that, okay.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Okay, So we want to take a look at that.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Yeah, so when I say when I say go to
the kids, that actually is going to the trust for
their benefit from that standplayer.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Okay, well, much much better than I was. Well, usually
what they do is they put everybody's name on it.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
You know what I mean. Now, you're screwed.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
But that's much better, much better. Okay, we'll talk more
when we get back. Okay, you've been listening to the
David Carriers Show. I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney.
Welcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. We got Scott on the line,
and here's Scott's situation. We got Grandpa healthy as a horse,
(19:54):
we got Grandma not quite not doing quite so well.
But we don't have any There's no imminine here. There's
no imminent imminent death. And you know these things. Here's
the problem. It's like Yogi Beart said, what's the problem
with predictions. Problem with predictions is they're all about the future,
(20:14):
and same way with assessments of health. My mom walked,
I don't know, ten miles a day collecting seashells on
the beach I mean, that's what she did. She actually
did that, and and dad didn't and she died was
twelve thirteen years before he did. So you know, there's
(20:34):
no there's no guarantee to perceived health. So there's just
no way to know. And my attitude towards it is,
I just I just bet on life. I just assume
people are going to live forever. Plans if they will,
and then of course cover the downside, but you know,
cover the possibility of death. But we just assumed that
people are going to live much longer than we expect,
(20:57):
and then we you know, then you might say, oh,
because I've had too many people with brain cancer who survive,
or liver cancer or the things that you know, pancreated cancer,
you know, three months and year out, well not necessarily Parkinson's.
Oh that's a seven to ten year situation. Four months later,
No it ain't. So there's just no way to know
(21:19):
with this stuff. But at the same time, if you
build a plan with enough flexibility, you know, and that's
that's really the key. That's that's my point with Scott here.
Scott's situation is got Grandpa's healthy, Grandma's not, and so
we're gonna bet that Grandpa's gonna survive Grandma. So we're
gonna move all the assets over to Grandpa. And then
(21:40):
if Grandpa does happen to die first okay, well, then
all the assets.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Come to the kids.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
And then, and this is important and very unusual, there's
a trust out there, apparently for the kids, which I'm
guessing was set up by mom and dad. Is that right,
my grandma grandpa is correct?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah, yeah, not more than five Okay, but within the
last five years.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Well, the transfer on death isn't going to be the problem.
The problem is. And this is why. All right, let
me back up again. When people say I have a
trust or an irrevocable trust or whatever, there is no
substitute for reading the damn thing. Okay, you can tell
me why you did it, and I can make some
guesses about what's in there, but until you actually read it.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
You don't like when you said that, I'm like, oh, well, great,
now I get this trust. I can use that as
a vehicle.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I don't have to worry about the kids' liabilities, and
if the kids choose to, they can all agree to support.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Grandma, mom or Grandpa whoever, whoever.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
It is, right, you can do that, and I don't
have to worry about the vestment because transferring assets from
Grandma to Grandpa, now he's got them, he dies, goes
into the trust. That's not a investment because the transfer
to him wasn't a divestment. But then you got to
but you got to read that trust because there are
very specific requirements in order for that to actually work. Okay,
(23:12):
and it's not My point is you're betting one way.
What if so if Grandma dies first, well, now all
the assets are with Grandpa, which means that if he
needs long term care, all right, well kissing goodbye, or
actually we can save half. But still what you what
I would do, what I have done in similar situations,
(23:33):
is you build a plan that whoever dies first, whoever
dies first, Right, you're protecting the assets for the other spouse,
all right, and you can you can do that now.
The thing is, if I've got a like like we've
got in this situation where we're kind of thinking that
(23:53):
that that mom's going to die first, Grandma's going to
die first because of the health situation and all the
rest of it. Okay, Well, is the idea that I
want to get the assets to the kids, or is
the idea I want to protect the assets for Grandpa.
Because if the idea is I want to protect the
assets for Grandpa, there's a way we can do. We
(24:14):
can say what we're doing. See, I'm a big fan
of mean what you say, Say what you mean, do
what you want to do. And let's not hide what
we're trying to do. Let's not give it to the
kids and pretend that we're giving it to the kids,
but we're really giving it to Grandpa. Okay, you don't
have to do that. You can actually look, we're doing
this in order to protect it for Grandma. If Grandma
(24:38):
dies first, we're doing it to protect it for Grandpa.
And if we move all the assets over to Grandma
right as opposed to having them in a trust, is
another way to do it. But if we give them
all to Grandma right and she does die first, then
the trust that she has created can protect all the
assets for Grandpa. It's got to be done correctly, but
(25:00):
you can. You can do that. Now, that still leaves
Grandpa with his ira. Now what if what if Grandma
needs what if Grandma needs nursing home care in the meantime, So, okay,
so shifting the assets to Grandma is not going to work.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Can't do that.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Instead, I need to get her on the Medicaid And
the good news is the good news is that I
can do that.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I've got a.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Couple hundred thousand dollars IRA. How much money do are
we talking about? How much cashy? Just give me a ballpark?
I don't really care, I mean, or fifty five hundred thousand.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, you're probably wrong. Five hundred thousand total in this
aspect that we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Okay, is that including the IRA or not.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I'm gonna say yes, I think it does. It could
be wrong, Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
So let's say I got two Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's that's fine. So but I got a substantial amount
of money and I've got a substantial IRA.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
So if Grandma needs long term.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Care, right, I would bet my bet would be she's
going to survive for a significant period of time.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
That's just the way I go at this.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Because I don't know, you know, and you can tell.
I got to complaint one time from a client, right
because the estate plan we did was too complex for
her because she had brain cancer. It was going to
die in two weeks when we did the plan, you
know how, you know, when she complained about it six
years later, six years later, she's like, oh, I don't
(26:29):
even know why you did all this for me because
I didn't need it, because I was dying to brink it.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
That was six years ago. You see, you just don't know.
You don't know.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
So you do a plan that is inherently flexible, but
beneficiary designations are not flexible. And depending on how the
how the how the trust is written, it might be
you might have the flexibility in there, you might not.
But that's the that's the sort of thing. If you
(27:03):
went into this, right, if the reason that they were
doing the estate plan, the grandma, grandpa, we're doing the
estate plan was Okay, here's how we're going to protect
the assets against the medicaid against the long term care.
And it works either way. Whoever dies first, we're still protected,
all right, all right, good good. If you did it
(27:25):
because you wanted to make sure, I don't know, maybe
it was a divest, probably not a investment trust, I
don't know what. Anyway, because they wanted to know that
it was going for that benefit or for the kids
or something like that. If that's why you did it,
it may not have the flexibility.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So my point is that.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Planning for the for your surviving spouse, especially when you
know that there are issues with the surviving spouse, call
it a double poorback because what we do is at
the death of the first one, the first spouse, we
pour back into out of the trust, into a trust
created by the will, established by will, where the assets
(28:13):
are now going to be exempt.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
For the surviving spouse.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
And we do it both ways because I don't know
who's going to die first. No, Grandpa's you know, Grandpa's
healthy as a horse, and he gets he gets in
a car accident on the way to go visit grandma. Yeah,
things happen, So I get. I guess my bottom line is.
My bottom line is, come on in, bring the thing,
(28:38):
we'll review it for you. We don't charge for that
kind of thing, and we'll just tell you, you know, here,
here's what this means. And look if it's if it's
good to go, i'll tell you that. I'll tell you that.
But but I'm not a fan of giving money to
this person saying I'm giving the money to this person
when I really mean I'm giving the money to that person.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I'd much.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Rather create a trust, discretionary trust, third party discretionary trust
where I can say what I mean mean when I
say defend it, and you can do that.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
You don't have to you don't have to do this thing.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
This half baked stuff where it's like, oh, everybody knows
we're doing this, but we're really doing that.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
It's like what what? Just just say it, say it
and structure it correctly. Yeah, structure it correctly. But you
can do it.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
You can do any honorable thing you want to do,
you can do if you do it correctly.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
That's my point.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Okay, Okay, I appreciate the information.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
All right, Yeah, well just give us a call. Let
let me take a look at you. It won't take long.
It won't take long. You've been listening to the David
Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney. Oh now,
let's just play music the rest of the time. Okay,
You're welcome back to the David Carriers Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. Okay, yeah, I mean interesting. The
(30:01):
the thing i'd like, the point I'd like to make is,
I mean, Scott's got an interesting situation, right the pretty
much anything you want to do right, anything, any arrangement
you want to have, anything you want to say, blah blah.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Blah, all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I mean, you can do it. You can accomplish the goal.
You know, a buddy of mine in the army, he
he went on to be a prosecutor for the Internal
Revenue Service RS and we got together some years later
and he said, you know, the funny thing is most
of the stuff I put people in jail for they
could do, and they could accomplish the same goal. There
(30:42):
are legal ways to do it, but they took shortcuts
and all that. Now, I'm not saying you're gonna get
put in jail.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
You're not. That's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
But the point is that, and yes, is it more difficult, Yeah,
it's more difficult to figure it out, I guess. But
at the end of the day, there's very very little
that honorable people, that good families want to do that
you can't do.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
You can do almost all of it.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
You do.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
You can accomplish your goals, but you got to use
the right tool right and you've got to take a
little bit of a longer view, because what happens is
people see a problem and they think they fix Grandma's
sicker than grandpa. Okay, well let's take care of that problem. Okay,
or this is happening, so let me take care of
that problem. And what you do is you wind up
(31:30):
planning whack a mole with the problems and then you
don't get a you don't get a solution. There's no
solution to it. And that gets me back into the
why we're talking with the pastors of the various churches,
because who knows better than the pastor who's where the
need is and all the rest. The thing is, if
(31:51):
you haven't done any planning, if you've done no planning
and now you need long term care and you don't
have very much forty dollars, I don't know something like that.
You've got some savings, but not not a whole heck
of a lot. There's a thing called a pooled fund.
And the idea here is that you can and it
(32:12):
has to be a nonprofit that sets it up, right,
a foundation or what have you, but a nonprofit that
creates this fund, and churches can sponsor these. And the
idea is that when you need the long term care,
you've got too much in the way of assets. You
get too much in your savings account or what have you.
And so what you do is you put the money
(32:33):
into this fund and it's it's a trust involved and
the idea is that the money is then used for
your benefit to supplement Medicaid. Right, you don't qualify for
medicaid because you get too much money thirty thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Oh it's too much.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Okay, Well what if so you got to spend it
and then you'll be on the medicaid Okay, fine, Well
what if we spent it and now you've got what
the media solution, You got nothing else, but you had
some savings. And for a lot of folks, for an
awful lot of folks, what they did was it was
a real struggle to get to be in the eighties
(33:12):
and still have twenty thirty forty thousand dollars. There's a
lot of decisions you made to save instead of spend
over the years in order to be at this point
in your life and still have that much money. Okay,
but now I'm going to blow it in two weeks,
three weeks in a long term or a month at
a long term care facility. Well, what if the money
(33:36):
could be protected for your benefit while you were alive,
to supplement to add on to what Medicaid would pay for. Right,
Medicaid pays for a shower or a week plus you
got a roommate, plus you got communal laundry. Well, maybe
you don't want any of those. Maybe you'd still like
to get your hair done. For some of us, you know,
that's a that's a distant memory. So I'm not worried
(33:59):
to get my hair. But anyway, some people do worry
about that stuff. But you don't have enough money to
pay for it because why because they took it off.
All right, what if you put the money and that's
where the pooled fund comes in. You put the money
into the pooled fund, and now the extras that you
need can be paid for from that fund. And at
(34:20):
the end of the day, if there's any leftovers, any
leftovers in the pooled fund, then it goes to the
church or your charity or whatever charity it is.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
That you'd like.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You'd like to get it, okay, instead of being so
there's these things called Medicaid payback trust. We do those too,
But the idea is, at the end of the day,
who gets the money the government does. It goes to
pay back the Medicaid. But my point is you don't
have to give the money back to the government. You
can if you voluntarily do this pooled fund. You can
(34:52):
give the money to your favorite charity and not your family.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
I know that's your favorite charity, but you know, you
can give it to the church or the zoo, or
whomever it is you choose. Now.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Typically, of course, when you've got a church or a
charitable organization creating one of these, they're the beneficiary. I mean,
that's part of the deal going in. But so what
I mean, they're the ones who are helping you out
and you are going to spend the money anyway. See,
the question is, and this is true of most of
what we're doing here, the question is do I spend
(35:28):
the money or keep it? Generally speaking, that's not the question.
The question is where do I spend the money and
will there be any left if I take one option
or the other. So when we do a Medicaid plan
crisis plan, so somebody comes in, so I got a house,
I got this, whatever, my spouse, et cetera. The question
(35:51):
is not The question is not should I spend money?
To do a plan right or hang on to my money,
because you're in a situation where you're not gonna.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Hang on to your money.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
You're heading, you know, for the It's like the coyote
and the and the road runner. You know, you're you're
looking to slam into the to the rock face. I mean,
that's what's going on. Maybe the roadrunner gets through, but
you're not gonna okay. And the idea is is not
(36:25):
do I spend the money or not spend the money's
gone anyway. The question is is there some way to
leverage to leverage right what you've already done in such
a way that it continues to benefit you and then
benefits people you like? You like your church, Okay, fine,
let's benefit them. You like your family, Okay, let's benefit them.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
There's all kinds of ways to do this, and the
pooled fund is just one of the choices on the men.
You ever go to a restaurant where it's like, you know,
get me out of here. You know, there's just too many,
it's overwhelming choices. That's a problem with planning. That is
a problem we run into that people sometimes have too
(37:10):
many choices of what to do and so rather than
do any of them, you're just oh, you know, I'll
look at this another day. And unfortunately that way if
you do it like that, if you if you just
freeze up, it's like then you lose everything.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
And that's you know, he who hesitates is lost. You know.
I didn't make that one up. But the fact of
the matter is that whether it's a situation where I've
got half a million, seven hundred thousand dollars and I
want to make sure it goes to my family, I
want to make after it, make I make sure that
it takes care of me and my spouse. Yeah, that's
a doable thing.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
That's a very doable thing, even in a crisis situation
where I don't have very much time. I'm really under
the gun. Are there things we can do? Yes, very
effective things and not doing them? Well, if you don't
do it, you don't do it. But it's your family
that's getting impoverished and doesn't have to it's your spouse
(38:09):
who has to go greeting at a department store, opening
the door for people or whatever, you know, and there
are eight and we what the hell?
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Now?
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Some people like doing it, I guess, but maybe it
should be a choice, as opposed to forced by financial insecurity.
And when you've worked and you've saved and you've done
that middle class thing for decades, going broke should not
be an option.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Okay, we've got yeah, okay, just reading my messages here.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
We got we got to call her at the top
of the hour, and we'll get to that. But right now,
I'm David Carrier, and this is the David Carrier Show.
Hello, and welcome to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney, and you have found the place
where we talk about a state planning, elder.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Law, real estate and business law. So give us a call.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Why don't just six one six seven seven four twenty
four twenty four, that's sixty one six seven seven four
twenty four twenty four will get your question.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Comment or concern on the air. We had a great
week this week.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
We have out visiting folks at the first United Methodist
Church out there in Greenville, and you know, in conversation
with the pastor, kind of a brief conversation actually, but
here's the thing. You know, we talk about this long
term care stuff all the time and the way people
are going broke. In fact, we're talking to another convention
(00:51):
of pastors next weekend. And because it kind of occurred
to me that who knows better than your pastor what's
going on with the in the parish and all the
rest of it in the in the church, who knows
what's going on with their flock speak? And you know,
(01:13):
here we concentrate focus, I guess, on the whole long
term care thing.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
And why do we do that.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Well, we do that because that's how the middle class
is being hollowed out, is being destroyed, is being assaulted.
You know, whatever word you want to use. I'm not
saying it's intentional. I'm just saying, you know, here's the thing.
If you knock a glass off the shelf, right with
milk in it, and you knocked it off the shelf,
(01:43):
did you mean to spill the milk or just knock
the glass? You know what I'm saying, Oh, I didn't
mean to spill the middle mummy. I was just hitting
the glass. It's like, well, wait a second. Natural consequences, right,
And the natural consequence of the way that the long
term care is done in America, and has been done
as long as I've been around, that's thirty five years,
(02:06):
has been to impoverish the middle class. And it falls
on the middle class because the services, the long term
care stuff, if you are not middle class, on the
other end, on the high end of the spectrum, you
can afford it. If you're not middle class, on the
low end of the spectrum, it's free. And it's not free.
(02:27):
Somebody paid for it. And the answer is the people
in the middle paid for it because the people on
the upper end are too smart to pay the taxes.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
They don't see.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
It's the income tax, all right, let's be sure we
understand what's going on here. It's the income tax that
funds the pika, right, your payroll taxes that Social security,
the social programs, social Safety Net is fighting. That's where
the money primarily comes from.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And this is why they're talking about running out of
the trust fund, which really is no trust.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Look it, if.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
You're a trustee for somebody, right and you run the
trust fund the way the federal government runs the Oh,
let's say anything they do, including the Social Security trust Fund,
you'd be in jail.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
So when they start talking, oh, the trust fund is
going to run out in you know, it used to
be forever. I used to be out in the Ron
Reagan redid it back in the eighties. You know, we
projected out until like the twenty forties or something like that,
like forever practically speaking. And now it's down to like,
I don't know, six minutes or seven minutes or I
don't know, something like that. It's it's it's scary. It's like, oh,
(03:39):
we're going to run out of money. Well, what do
you mean we're going to run out of money. We're
gonna run out of money because there won't be any
money left in the in the trust fund. There is
no money in the trust fund. It's a bookkeeping entry.
They spent that money a long time ago, and they
stuck in Iowa. It's like, it's like, do you ever
have a peggy bank? I'm just telling you, you ever
(04:01):
have a piggy bank?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Right?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
And you put money in it? Right?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Why so you could be able to buy Christmas presents
or whatever? All right, you're saving up for a bicycle.
I did that save up for a bicycle? Are you
saving up for your bicycle?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Right?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Which, believe me, have thirty five bucks? Seemed like forever away,
but I got it eventually.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Anyway.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
The point is, what if you didn't put money in
the piggy bank? What if you didn't put your paper
root money in the piggy bank? Okay, what if in
the piggy bank you're stuck in iou saying uh, I'll
give you fifty cents later. That's what so security is.
That's what medicare, medicaid, that's all that. It's a piggy
(04:45):
bank full of IOUs and they're saying, oh, we're gonna
run out.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Of the IOUs. But it's not real money anyway. What
are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Okay, so let's be clear, we understand what's going on.
What's going on? All right, it's a bunch of IOUs
and we're we're going to run out of the IOUs.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So what are you talking? What are you saying? Trust fund?
You better not run.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
If you're a trustee for somebody, you better not run
that situation the way the government runs it's situation. Adult
Protective Services will come a knocking on your door. Right,
Oh oh, a piggy bang full of IOUs. Of course
I've been spending those IOUs, so pretty soon I'm going
(05:32):
to run out of IOUs. Yeah, but there's never any
cash in there to start with. Okay, And how do
they keep the scam going? Well, number one, they whack you.
Every single paycheck you get, you get whacked with the FIKA. Okay,
you pay seven and a half, your employer pays seven
and a half thereabouts, So fifteen percent of us payroll
(05:55):
goes right in to feed that thing, which you can understand.
I guess why why Congress people are so oh boy,
look at all the money.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Let's give it to somebody else who'll vote for.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Us, right right now, right now, they're trying to cut
back on people who should not be getting it, and
there's this huge.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Outcry, Oh, you're horrible.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
You're not spending money we don't have on people who
didn't earn it, who didn't pay in. Right, you're not
giving our money away for free, And now we're upset.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
What how? What?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
How did that work? But that's that's the world we're
living in. And if you're a middle class person, you've
been paying in with every freaking paycheck you ever got,
starting when you were washing dishes or bagging groceries or
anything else where.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It was sort of organized.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
In my own case, I've been paying Social Security since
before I was legal to work. You look back on
my work record and I was like fourteen team and
I actually got a job. I think it was like fifteen,
and they said, well, well, we need your work permit,
and like, what do you mean work permit? Yeah, you
(07:11):
know you're underage. You know fifteen, you need you need
to work permit. And I'm like, yeah, but I've been
working at Harney's liquor store over there for the last
couple of years. You know, they have a grocery too.
I was bagging groceries. I was also stacking cases of
beer and you know all that. You know, I actually
worked as a cash here, not just a bag boy.
I was a cashier too.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
And they're like, you.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Were working at a liquor store at thirteen, Like, well,
I wasn't the only one, you know, But I paid
FIKA on every paycheck. That's the thing. I was paid FIKA.
I paid this old security on those paychecks. Okay, so
maybe they don't let you go. As long as you've
had a job, you've been paying for the fiker. And
(07:55):
because there was a nice big pile of money there,
you know, your your tax dollars at work. Mean you're
a congress people mean you're gonna be. They can't stand it.
They can't stand money that's not spent yet, money that
they could spend and they haven't spent.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Oh boy, what do.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You mean we got some money over here? Holy cow,
let's get that spent. Let's get that spent all right,
and now when you need it. Now they're like, oh,
you shouldn't take your Social Security, oh your Medicare now listen.
I don't think they'll ever do anything with your medicare
or your social security. I've said that before, I'll say
(08:33):
it again. The one thing that will cause the middle
class to rise up besides the cold blooded assassination of
one of their cultural icons, you know, one of the
champions of the middle class, that will that'll do it,
you know, kill somebody who everybody recognizes a secular saying
kill that guy. That'll get people upset. Okay, But the
(08:55):
other thing that'll get people upset is miss them with
your so security. Does everybody gets that we paid for that.
Everybody gets that the promise that was made decades ago
when we were little kids, when we took our first job.
We're not going to let them break that because we'll
vote them out of office. And that's the one thing
they're scared of getting voted out. So you don't have
(09:16):
to worry about your SOLFI security or medicare. But the
long term care part of it, the medicaid part of it,
you know, that's what they can get away with. That's
what they're screwing you on. That's why there isn't an
inheritance to be left to the next generation.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
In an environment. Well, we'll talk about with.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
The we'll talk about why it's so much, so much
more important these days. You know, one of my slogans
is screw the kids.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
If you think the estate planning is all about your kids,
you'll die broke. Okay, You'll die broke because you won't
focus on you, you'll focus on the kids.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
You won't figure out how to hang on to your
stuff for you, and you'll die broke.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
That's how it goes.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Look around, it's happening all around you. But if you
plan for you, then there will be leftovers for the kids.
And that's really what this is all about. Making not
the kids, I mean making sure that your money's there
for you, right, keep the promise that you made to yourself,
to your spouse, to your family first and foremost, Okay,
(10:18):
and then then we'll worry about the Then we'll worry
about the kids, but there will be something there for them.
You've been listening to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Welcome back to.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
The David Carrier Show, the show that proves every week
that the bumper music is better than the.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Better than the show itself. One more time that ma'd.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Be good okay, hard, hard to admit, easy to observe.
How much better the music is than the show? Sorry anyway?
Six one six seven seven four, and see you can
make the show better. You could call in right six
one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four. That's
one six seven seven four twenty four twenty four. Will
(11:03):
get your question coming or concern on the air. As
I say, the past week, we've been thinking about churches, right,
and the role of the church in preserving the middle class,
because let's face it, who goes right?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
It's mostly middle class folks. You know what what is?
What is?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
What is planning right? What is planning? What is going
to church? But planning right for the really long haul?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
All right?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
You sacrifice things now for the for the uh, for eternity.
That's a that's a pretty good indication that you might
be planning ahead. Six one six seven seven four twenty
fourth twenty four anyway, the uh. So, yeah, let's go
to church. Let's plan for eternity. But while we are
on this side of the great divide, faith alone does
not save. Hard work saves okay, good works. Remember that
(11:54):
whole conversation. You know what gets you into heaven. Is
it good works or is it or is it faith alone? Well, well,
faith alone, I think. I mean, you can't earn heaven
doesn't work like that. It's not like, oh I did
these things and therefore you know, I'm so good, I'm
entitled good luck for that.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
That's not how it works.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
At the same time, right, what else do they say?
They also say that by their fruits shall ye know them?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Right?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
So what you do is an indication of what you believe,
it seems like to me, And that has been consistent
with people I know who go to church. They tend
to be people who actually work. They tend to be
people who actually care. They tend to have families, can't
They tend to actually do things you know, for other people,
(12:45):
other oriented as you might say. Okay, that's who church
going People's been my experience anyway. And they tend to
be pretty happy folks altogether anyway. So that's all. That's
what I'm saying. That's all good now in talking with
church going people who're talking with the pastors and whatnot.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Oh, we've got.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
We've got Scott on the line. See if you call in,
we'll get right to you. Yes, Scott, how can I help?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Hey, goodmor mister carrier. How are things in your world?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Good morning? Oh I'm just perking and working and having
a ball. We had a whole bunch of kids. It
was a homecoming week, you know, so we had a
more bunch of my son's friends over.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
That was exciting. Perfect.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
But they eventually, eventually, yeah, eventually they settled down on
the sleep soule was good. It was only three o'clock
in the morning.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Oh yeah, well mine made it back at one thirty.
Saw it was a little bit better, I guess than
that's standpoint.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
So there you go. Excellent.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah, how can I help? I have a snare. Then
a couple of questions. Okay, so the scenarios. So Grandpa, grandma,
Grandpa helping. He has an ox doing well, Grandma she's
priority on borrowed time, not doing well. We just don't know,
you know, it could be a month, it could be
two years. But anyways, big difference in health conditions. And
(14:02):
so we moved them into a retirement facility you know
that has different levels of care, something that they chose
to do and right, and then we sold Then we
sold their house. Okay, now, when we sold the house,
we took and put all the proceeds into Grandpa's individual
(14:24):
investment accounts. Okay, so I know. So now we didn't
put any we didn't put anything into with anything with
Grandma's name, and I know that's kind of a divestment
by itself. But then the.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Next transfers, let's be let let me start with you
right there, Transfers between spouses are not investment.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
There's no investment.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Here, okay, okay, So then the next question I have
is what prompted this is that on all of Grandpa's
accounts we changed the beneficiaries and removed everything from Grahama
as a beneficiary and put all the kids instead of
going through a grandma instead of going through the spouse,
(15:04):
and everything is his iras is this particular account that
we open up for the proceeds of the house. One
are the ramifications of taking, if there is any of
taking Grandma off of any benefactor again, and that's just
in case something happens to Grandpa, which we don't anticipate.
But if something wor to happen to Grandpa, everything is
(15:25):
now sitt to go to the kids directly, right.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Right, So you got two, you got two possibilities. Grandma
needs long term care, right, Grandma doesn't need long four.
Grandma needs it, doesn't need it. Grandpa needs it, doesn't
need it. Grandpa dies first, Grandma dies first.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Okay. Now, if Grandma.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Gets to the point where she needs skilled care, right,
you don't qualify for the Benevolent Fund at the long
term care facility, at the continuity of care facility, you
won't qualify for that unless you qualify for the Medicaid.
So we got to get Grandma qualified for Medicaid before
she's going to qualify for the Benevolent Okay, let's just
(16:08):
be clear about that. Now, If if you believe, if
you believe that Grandma is dying, okay, imminent death, right,
then what so here's the thing, all right, And I
hate to say it, but it's true. Death is a
planning opportunity. Okay, it sounds terrible, but it's true. Death
(16:30):
is a planning opportunity. If I put everything in Grandma's name,
I can't move the IRA. I can't move the IRA.
I just wouldn't do it. How much is in the
IRA ballpark for me?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
A couple hundred thousand, yeah, okay, So.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
I probably leave that with Grandpa anyway, and I would
take I would put the rest of it actually in
Grandma's name, Okay, in Grandma's name if I was convinced
of her imminent death, because when she dies, when she
dies in her will, we can have a trust, Okay,
(17:06):
a trust established by will for Grandpa's benefit. I'm not
giving it to the grandkids because I are the kids
or the grandkids. I don't know what the hell's going
on with you guys, right, But I can put it
into a trust for Grandpa's benefit, which will be off
the table for medicaid purposes, completely off the table. Okay, Okay,
So now you don't know who's gonna die first, and
(17:29):
there's an element of crystal ball here, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So, but the idea that I would leave everything, I
would put everything in Grandpa's name. See, if Grandpa dies
and it all goes to the kids, then the kids,
if they choose to, can help out Grandma. But now
the problem is like, like, how old are you guys?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
They're mid eighties. The next generation is, you know, fifties.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you guys aren't spring chicken either, right,
So I really.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Haven't well you're not sorry.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But you haven't protected it yet.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Now, if you if you did what we always do,
which is we always leave the proceeds when they go
to the kids, we always wrap it in the trust
for the kid's benefit, then.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
It will not count. It for the kids.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Car accident, divorce, student loans, medicaid, whatever, it won't count.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
So at a minimum, what we should be doing is
if you're going to give it to the kids, which okay,
if you're going to do that, but and then hope
that the kids use the money for grandma's benefit. But
the way you do that is you leave it to
the kids in trust. Now my way of doing I
tell you what. We've got thirty seconds left, So do
(18:49):
you mind hanging on through the news and we'll come
back to this.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
I'll hang on. I give you one clarification, yeah, yeah, please.
We do have a we do have an irrevocable trust
that was set up years ago and we actually made
which is for the benefit of the kids. We made
we made all the the designated beneficiary in the counse
we're talking about to the trust, not directly to the kids.
(19:14):
Everything passes through that, okay.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Okay, So we want to take a look at that.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Yeah, so when I say when I say go to
the kids, that actually is going to the trust for
their benefit from that standplayer.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Okay, well, much much better than I was. Well, usually
what they do is they put everybody's name on it.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
You know what I mean. Now, you're screwed.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
But that's much better, much better. Okay, we'll talk more
when we get back. Okay, you've been listening to the
David Carriers Show. I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney.
Welcome back to the David Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. We got Scott on the line,
and here's Scott's situation. We got Grandpa healthy as a horse,
(19:54):
we got Grandma not quite not doing quite so well.
But we don't have any There's no imminine here. There's
no imminent imminent death. And you know these things. Here's
the problem. It's like Yogi Beart said, what's the problem
with predictions. Problem with predictions is they're all about the future,
(20:14):
and same way with assessments of health. My mom walked,
I don't know, ten miles a day collecting seashells on
the beach I mean, that's what she did. She actually
did that, and and dad didn't and she died was
twelve thirteen years before he did. So you know, there's
(20:34):
no there's no guarantee to perceived health. So there's just
no way to know. And my attitude towards it is,
I just I just bet on life. I just assume
people are going to live forever. Plans if they will,
and then of course cover the downside, but you know,
cover the possibility of death. But we just assumed that
people are going to live much longer than we expect,
(20:57):
and then we you know, then you might say, oh,
because I've had too many people with brain cancer who survive,
or liver cancer or the things that you know, pancreated cancer,
you know, three months and year out, well not necessarily Parkinson's.
Oh that's a seven to ten year situation. Four months later,
No it ain't. So there's just no way to know
(21:19):
with this stuff. But at the same time, if you
build a plan with enough flexibility, you know, and that's
that's really the key. That's that's my point with Scott here.
Scott's situation is got Grandpa's healthy, Grandma's not, and so
we're gonna bet that Grandpa's gonna survive Grandma. So we're
gonna move all the assets over to Grandpa. And then
(21:40):
if Grandpa does happen to die first okay, well, then
all the assets.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Come to the kids.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
And then, and this is important and very unusual, there's
a trust out there, apparently for the kids, which I'm
guessing was set up by mom and dad. Is that right,
my grandma grandpa is correct?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah, yeah, not more than five Okay, but within the
last five years.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Well, the transfer on death isn't going to be the problem.
The problem is. And this is why. All right, let
me back up again. When people say I have a
trust or an irrevocable trust or whatever, there is no
substitute for reading the damn thing. Okay, you can tell
me why you did it, and I can make some
guesses about what's in there, but until you actually read it.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
You don't like when you said that, I'm like, oh, well, great,
now I get this trust. I can use that as
a vehicle.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I don't have to worry about the kids' liabilities, and
if the kids choose to, they can all agree to support.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Grandma, mom or Grandpa whoever, whoever.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
It is, right, you can do that, and I don't
have to worry about the vestment because transferring assets from
Grandma to Grandpa, now he's got them, he dies, goes
into the trust. That's not a investment because the transfer
to him wasn't a divestment. But then you got to
but you got to read that trust because there are
very specific requirements in order for that to actually work. Okay,
(23:12):
and it's not My point is you're betting one way.
What if so if Grandma dies first, well, now all
the assets are with Grandpa, which means that if he
needs long term care, all right, well kissing goodbye, or
actually we can save half. But still what you what
I would do, what I have done in similar situations,
(23:33):
is you build a plan that whoever dies first, whoever
dies first, Right, you're protecting the assets for the other spouse,
all right, and you can you can do that now.
The thing is, if I've got a like like we've
got in this situation where we're kind of thinking that
(23:53):
that that mom's going to die first, Grandma's going to
die first because of the health situation and all the
rest of it. Okay, Well, is the idea that I
want to get the assets to the kids, or is
the idea I want to protect the assets for Grandpa.
Because if the idea is I want to protect the
assets for Grandpa, there's a way we can do. We
(24:14):
can say what we're doing. See, I'm a big fan
of mean what you say, Say what you mean, do
what you want to do. And let's not hide what
we're trying to do. Let's not give it to the
kids and pretend that we're giving it to the kids,
but we're really giving it to Grandpa. Okay, you don't
have to do that. You can actually look, we're doing
this in order to protect it for Grandma. If Grandma
(24:38):
dies first, we're doing it to protect it for Grandpa.
And if we move all the assets over to Grandma
right as opposed to having them in a trust, is
another way to do it. But if we give them
all to Grandma right and she does die first, then
the trust that she has created can protect all the
assets for Grandpa. It's got to be done correctly, but
(25:00):
you can. You can do that. Now, that still leaves
Grandpa with his ira. Now what if what if Grandma
needs what if Grandma needs nursing home care in the meantime, So, okay,
so shifting the assets to Grandma is not going to work.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Can't do that.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Instead, I need to get her on the Medicaid And
the good news is the good news is that I
can do that.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I've got a.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Couple hundred thousand dollars IRA. How much money do are
we talking about? How much cashy? Just give me a ballpark?
I don't really care, I mean, or fifty five hundred thousand.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, you're probably wrong. Five hundred thousand total in this
aspect that we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Okay, is that including the IRA or not.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I'm gonna say yes, I think it does. It could
be wrong, Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
So let's say I got two Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's that's fine. So but I got a substantial amount
of money and I've got a substantial IRA.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
So if Grandma needs long term.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Care, right, I would bet my bet would be she's
going to survive for a significant period of time.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
That's just the way I go at this.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Because I don't know, you know, and you can tell.
I got to complaint one time from a client, right
because the estate plan we did was too complex for
her because she had brain cancer. It was going to
die in two weeks when we did the plan, you
know how, you know, when she complained about it six
years later, six years later, she's like, oh, I don't
(26:29):
even know why you did all this for me because
I didn't need it, because I was dying to brink it.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
That was six years ago. You see, you just don't know.
You don't know.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
So you do a plan that is inherently flexible, but
beneficiary designations are not flexible. And depending on how the
how the how the trust is written, it might be
you might have the flexibility in there, you might not.
But that's the that's the sort of thing. If you
(27:03):
went into this, right, if the reason that they were
doing the estate plan, the grandma, grandpa, we're doing the
estate plan was Okay, here's how we're going to protect
the assets against the medicaid against the long term care.
And it works either way. Whoever dies first, we're still protected,
all right, all right, good good. If you did it
(27:25):
because you wanted to make sure, I don't know, maybe
it was a divest, probably not a investment trust, I
don't know what. Anyway, because they wanted to know that
it was going for that benefit or for the kids
or something like that. If that's why you did it,
it may not have the flexibility.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So my point is that.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Planning for the for your surviving spouse, especially when you
know that there are issues with the surviving spouse, call
it a double poorback because what we do is at
the death of the first one, the first spouse, we
pour back into out of the trust, into a trust
created by the will, established by will, where the assets
(28:13):
are now going to be exempt.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
For the surviving spouse.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
And we do it both ways because I don't know
who's going to die first. No, Grandpa's you know, Grandpa's
healthy as a horse, and he gets he gets in
a car accident on the way to go visit grandma. Yeah,
things happen, So I get. I guess my bottom line is.
My bottom line is, come on in, bring the thing,
(28:38):
we'll review it for you. We don't charge for that
kind of thing, and we'll just tell you, you know, here,
here's what this means. And look if it's if it's
good to go, i'll tell you that. I'll tell you that.
But but I'm not a fan of giving money to
this person saying I'm giving the money to this person
when I really mean I'm giving the money to that person.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I'd much.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Rather create a trust, discretionary trust, third party discretionary trust
where I can say what I mean mean when I
say defend it, and you can do that.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
You don't have to you don't have to do this thing.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
This half baked stuff where it's like, oh, everybody knows
we're doing this, but we're really doing that.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
It's like what what? Just just say it, say it
and structure it correctly. Yeah, structure it correctly. But you
can do it.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
You can do any honorable thing you want to do,
you can do if you do it correctly.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
That's my point.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Okay, Okay, I appreciate the information.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
All right, Yeah, well just give us a call. Let
let me take a look at you. It won't take long.
It won't take long. You've been listening to the David
Carrier Show. I'm David Carrier, your family's personal attorney. Oh now,
let's just play music the rest of the time. Okay,
You're welcome back to the David Carriers Show. I'm David Carrier,
your family's personal attorney. Okay, yeah, I mean interesting. The
(30:01):
the thing i'd like, the point I'd like to make is,
I mean, Scott's got an interesting situation, right the pretty
much anything you want to do right, anything, any arrangement
you want to have, anything you want to say, blah blah.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Blah, all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I mean, you can do it. You can accomplish the goal.
You know, a buddy of mine in the army, he
he went on to be a prosecutor for the Internal
Revenue Service RS and we got together some years later
and he said, you know, the funny thing is most
of the stuff I put people in jail for they
could do, and they could accomplish the same goal. There
(30:42):
are legal ways to do it, but they took shortcuts
and all that. Now, I'm not saying you're gonna get
put in jail.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
You're not. That's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
But the point is that, and yes, is it more difficult, Yeah,
it's more difficult to figure it out, I guess. But
at the end of the day, there's very very little
that honorable people, that good families want to do that
you can't do.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
You can do almost all of it.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
You do.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
You can accomplish your goals, but you got to use
the right tool right and you've got to take a
little bit of a longer view, because what happens is
people see a problem and they think they fix Grandma's
sicker than grandpa. Okay, well let's take care of that problem. Okay,
or this is happening, so let me take care of
that problem. And what you do is you wind up
(31:30):
planning whack a mole with the problems and then you
don't get a you don't get a solution. There's no
solution to it. And that gets me back into the
why we're talking with the pastors of the various churches,
because who knows better than the pastor who's where the
need is and all the rest. The thing is, if
(31:51):
you haven't done any planning, if you've done no planning
and now you need long term care and you don't
have very much forty dollars, I don't know something like that.
You've got some savings, but not not a whole heck
of a lot. There's a thing called a pooled fund.
And the idea here is that you can and it
(32:12):
has to be a nonprofit that sets it up, right,
a foundation or what have you, but a nonprofit that
creates this fund, and churches can sponsor these. And the
idea is that when you need the long term care,
you've got too much in the way of assets. You
get too much in your savings account or what have you.
And so what you do is you put the money
(32:33):
into this fund and it's it's a trust involved and
the idea is that the money is then used for
your benefit to supplement Medicaid. Right, you don't qualify for
medicaid because you get too much money thirty thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Oh it's too much.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Okay, Well what if so you got to spend it
and then you'll be on the medicaid Okay, fine, Well
what if we spent it and now you've got what
the media solution, You got nothing else, but you had
some savings. And for a lot of folks, for an
awful lot of folks, what they did was it was
a real struggle to get to be in the eighties
(33:12):
and still have twenty thirty forty thousand dollars. There's a
lot of decisions you made to save instead of spend
over the years in order to be at this point
in your life and still have that much money. Okay,
but now I'm going to blow it in two weeks,
three weeks in a long term or a month at
a long term care facility. Well, what if the money
(33:36):
could be protected for your benefit while you were alive,
to supplement to add on to what Medicaid would pay for. Right,
Medicaid pays for a shower or a week plus you
got a roommate, plus you got communal laundry. Well, maybe
you don't want any of those. Maybe you'd still like
to get your hair done. For some of us, you know,
that's a that's a distant memory. So I'm not worried
(33:59):
to get my hair. But anyway, some people do worry
about that stuff. But you don't have enough money to
pay for it because why because they took it off.
All right, what if you put the money and that's
where the pooled fund comes in. You put the money
into the pooled fund, and now the extras that you
need can be paid for from that fund. And at
(34:20):
the end of the day, if there's any leftovers, any
leftovers in the pooled fund, then it goes to the
church or your charity or whatever charity it is.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
That you'd like.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You'd like to get it, okay, instead of being so
there's these things called Medicaid payback trust. We do those too,
But the idea is, at the end of the day,
who gets the money the government does. It goes to
pay back the Medicaid. But my point is you don't
have to give the money back to the government. You
can if you voluntarily do this pooled fund. You can
(34:52):
give the money to your favorite charity and not your family.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
I know that's your favorite charity, but you know, you
can give it to the church or the zoo, or
whomever it is you choose. Now.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Typically, of course, when you've got a church or a
charitable organization creating one of these, they're the beneficiary. I mean,
that's part of the deal going in. But so what
I mean, they're the ones who are helping you out
and you are going to spend the money anyway. See,
the question is, and this is true of most of
what we're doing here, the question is do I spend
(35:28):
the money or keep it? Generally speaking, that's not the question.
The question is where do I spend the money and
will there be any left if I take one option
or the other. So when we do a Medicaid plan
crisis plan, so somebody comes in, so I got a house,
I got this, whatever, my spouse, et cetera. The question
(35:51):
is not The question is not should I spend money?
To do a plan right or hang on to my money,
because you're in a situation where you're not gonna.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Hang on to your money.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
You're heading, you know, for the It's like the coyote
and the and the road runner. You know, you're you're
looking to slam into the to the rock face. I mean,
that's what's going on. Maybe the roadrunner gets through, but
you're not gonna okay. And the idea is is not
(36:25):
do I spend the money or not spend the money's
gone anyway. The question is is there some way to
leverage to leverage right what you've already done in such
a way that it continues to benefit you and then
benefits people you like? You like your church, Okay, fine,
let's benefit them. You like your family, Okay, let's benefit them.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
There's all kinds of ways to do this, and the
pooled fund is just one of the choices on the men.
You ever go to a restaurant where it's like, you know,
get me out of here. You know, there's just too many,
it's overwhelming choices. That's a problem with planning. That is
a problem we run into that people sometimes have too
(37:10):
many choices of what to do and so rather than
do any of them, you're just oh, you know, I'll
look at this another day. And unfortunately that way if
you do it like that, if you if you just
freeze up, it's like then you lose everything.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
And that's you know, he who hesitates is lost. You know.
I didn't make that one up. But the fact of
the matter is that whether it's a situation where I've
got half a million, seven hundred thousand dollars and I
want to make sure it goes to my family, I
want to make after it, make I make sure that
it takes care of me and my spouse. Yeah, that's
a doable thing.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
That's a very doable thing, even in a crisis situation
where I don't have very much time. I'm really under
the gun. Are there things we can do? Yes, very
effective things and not doing them? Well, if you don't
do it, you don't do it. But it's your family
that's getting impoverished and doesn't have to it's your spouse
(38:09):
who has to go greeting at a department store, opening
the door for people or whatever, you know, and there
are eight and we what the hell?
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Now?
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Some people like doing it, I guess, but maybe it
should be a choice, as opposed to forced by financial insecurity.
And when you've worked and you've saved and you've done
that middle class thing for decades, going broke should not
be an option.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Okay, we've got yeah, okay, just reading my messages here.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
We got we got to call her at the top
of the hour, and we'll get to that. But right now,
I'm David Carrier, and this is the David Carrier Show.
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.