Episode 17 Featuring Judge Victoria Pratt

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Dear America, where your voice matters and every
vote counts. Join us as we explore the power of
black and brown communities and shaping our future. It's time
to make your mark and be heard.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hello America.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
This is Dear America with Chanelle Barnes, and I am
sitting with one of the most fabulous women I know,
Judge Victoria pret How are you?

Speaker 4 (00:28):
I am wonderful after that introduction, Thank you so much for.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
That, I mean, absolutely fabulous. I want to jump right
in because I think our viewers are excited to hear
from you, just giving your background as a judge and
then everything else that you've done judge, author, mother, etc.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Let's talk about just transforming justice.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
You've been a trailblazer in criminal justice reform through your work.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Can you explain the.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Core principles behind your approach and how they differ from
traditional methods?

Speaker 4 (01:02):
If at all so, I will tell you that when
I got on the bench, I decided that I was
going to bring everything that was Victoria Pratt to the bench,
and that meant growing up maybe four blocks from the
courthouse where I would subsequently become the chief judge, where

(01:25):
my mother had a beauty salon, and so, unbeknown to
mom had a beauty salon on Halsey Street in New York.
And so what it meant for me to now serve
the community that my mother served and really understand those
stories and taking all of those lessons, you know, all
of that stuff that we say, oh, I'm not going
to become my parent, and then that's exactly who you become.

(01:48):
And to now be able to have the opportunity to
have this institutional authority, which is what becoming a judge
means you have, and to be able to look at
justice not just as a punitive tool, but really as
an opportunity to restore, to rehabilitate, to reconnect families. Because

(02:10):
that's what I saw when people came before me. I
saw the guy who, because of his addiction, was unable
to be a father, who was unable to be a son,
to the elderly mother who was no longer able to
now be a neighbor in a community. Sure, and so
this idea that you would go on the bench and
not want to just do that which is customary, which

(02:33):
is finding the greatest way to punish people, and also
understanding what people were doing. You know it's the person
who came before me, who lived down at Penn Station,
which in New Jersey is the largest unofficial homeless station, right,
and it sits in New York. And the person gets
what we call a blue ticket, which is a quality
of life ticket for having a for stealing a five

(02:56):
dollars candy bar from one of the stores there. Well,
what the h I missed to music? The candy bar
costs five dollars, right, talk about that it costs five dollars,
and that the person is hungry, and the person couldn't
afford it and couldn't afford it, and that we are
the richest country in the world and this person is hungry. Sure,
And so what it means to use the authority that

(03:19):
you've been given to impact justice? So when I got there,
I just thought I was I was like, we're going
to I want to be relevant on the bench because
I think that it makes a judge feel irrelevant if
all they're doing is smashing people out with harsh sentences
and the day they get out. We know that if
you send a drug addict to jail for ninety days,
on the ninety first day, there's still a drug addict

(03:39):
unless you've done something in that time that you have them.
So this idea of transforming justice, I did not know
that I was practicing something that later Tim Tyler, or
before Tom Tyler would had coined as procedural justice. And
it's a concept that says that if people are treated
fairly and with dignity and respect by the justice system.

(04:01):
And I've also found that this applies outside of the
justice system, within different fields, that not only does it
increase the public's trust in the justice system, it increases
compliance with the law, which means it reduces crime, and
it also increases compliance with the judge's orders and what
that means for communities. And there are these principles, this

(04:22):
idea that if people are given voice when they come
to court, what happens when they engage police officers, when
they engage system actors, what happens if they are treated
with neutrality, if they believe that the process is neutral,
and it has to be more than just the judge,
assuming that people believe the system is neutral because they're

(04:43):
on the bench, because we already know people do not,
particularly people of color who have had a different experience
with justice in this country. Then there's this idea of understanding,
and that it's our responsibility to ensure that the people
who come before us or who were engaged with understand

(05:04):
what's required of them, what they have to do next,
and what the consequences are if they don't do those
things before we send them into the world. And the
last one is respect. Now people are like, oh, that's
so easy, but it's not easy.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
I can't imagine it could be easy, exactly.

Speaker 4 (05:20):
Right, And how many people feel disrespected when they come
to court? Sure, right, and respect is something as simple
as saying good morning, sir, good afternoon, ma'am.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Right, this idea that challenging people is human beings.

Speaker 4 (05:34):
And just because you've compelled them to come to court
doesn't mean that they leave their humanity outside or that
they lose their humanity because they are now within the walls.
So I was really fortunate as well. We had NEWERK
Community Solutions, which was a program that allowed us to
do alternative sents and saying. So now when a person
came to court, a veteran came to court, instead of

(05:56):
just sending them to the county jail because they're a drug,
I now had the opportunity to send them to a
clinic that was inside the court house and give them
sentences that required them to do therapy counseling. Have the
VA come down to the courthouse. Everyone, Oh, you know,
we love our veterans, and it's hard to believe how

(06:17):
much we love our veterans when we look at what
the justice system does to people who come back from
war or just training, who are traumatized. And so this
idea that the VA starts to, no will have them
come here with their counselors who get people to yes. Right,
And so a veteran comes to court and now I
went upstairs. Judge never does what the court says, and

(06:41):
they told me that I was one hundred percent disable.
Now my daughter, who hasn't done anything for since he's
been a drug addict for the past fifteen years, who's
in college, gets to check every month because her dad
is now and that happened because you came to court.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
So this right inspirational.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
But it's inspirational, and it's to me like it's not
as I mentioned earlier, it's not a traditional pad I
want to go to. I want to transfer a little
bit to just civic engagement and thinking about those who
have been formally incarcerated and the opportunities that should be
existing for the formerly incarcerated to be able to engage

(07:21):
in the civic engagement process. Just given some of what
you've described earlier. What's your perspective one.

Speaker 4 (07:29):
Well, you know, it's interesting that we're having this conversation
because now a part of my life is working through Rutgers,
through this Reopen re entry program where we're going to
be supporting the re entry organizations and the city helping
build capacity, but really helping them expand their programs and
things like that. But this idea that people go to

(07:50):
jail and serve their time for the crime that they've committed. However,
we have these things called collateral consequences that hangover later,
that hang over their heads when they come out. And
so now as a part of getting out, we're insisting
one that you get back into society, get a job,
get educated, get a driver's license. However, we've created so

(08:15):
many roadblocks for folks to do this. I mean, I'm
talking about proscedural justice, but imagine if we had procedural
justice in every government agency that you went to, sure
people would be able to function. But I'm a high
function and highly educated, and I have trouble when I
go to agencies trying to figure out don't you know
these things like this is your whole purpose? So what

(08:36):
happens when a person comes out of prison and they're
still dealing with surcharges on their driver's license? Right, or
even a person goes and pays a ticket and they're
dealing with this idea that now I can't get a
driver's license, but I need to get a job so
now I can pay the back child support that I
owe or the restitution that I owe. So it's almost

(08:58):
like we're setting people up for failure but also setting
them up to not become full members of society, right,
And it's absolutely ridiculous that we would do that because
we need all the help we can get to get
this country back to where it really needs to be
when we're comparing it to what's happening in other countries. Absolutely, so,
I think this idea that everyone has to participate also

(09:21):
means that we have to let go of our insatiable
desire to punish. And again, where you think that desire?
Cod my god, because it's America and people are rewarded.
We are rewarded for keeping people out right, We've been rewarded.
We constantly reward people for keeping people out and creating

(09:44):
these narratives around them that aren't true until So that's
why the opioid crisis is such an eye opening thing
in America, because drugs don't know race, they don't know creed,
they don't know religion, right. And so when the opioid
crisis hit, or when people start calling it the Hope
you had crisis, we and Noork weren't surprised. We weren't.

(10:07):
We were treating these folks who came to Newark who
did not live there, as if they were everyone else
who needed assistance. And so now people are starting to
see young white folks coming who have what you would
think are all these advantages, but nobody's talking about mental health.
Nobody's talking about drama and what happens to us as

(10:28):
a community as a whole when we now have to
look at this is someone's child. And that's always been
my approach. That kid comes in here, that's somebody's try.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
I need them to be it could be my child.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
This is I mean, you're you're giving us so many nuggets.
You've worked with jurisdictions around the world on criminal justice reform.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
What common challenges.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
And successes have you have you observed globally and how
can these lessons be applied to the US.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
You know, the first time I got invited to go
to someone's country to talk about what I did in
this space in norc I was shocked. But what is
the common thread when I go to these places to
meet with judges, to train judges, to go and visit
their spaces of incarceration, to meet with policy folks, to
meet with folks who are dealing with juveniles and know

(11:16):
that they have to do better than they do. Is
this idea that we have to return humanity back to
justice like it is? It is where it begins. We
need We're asking you to come here, and you're correct
when I'm done, that we have to return humanity back
to justice. It's a shameless plug. But that's why the

(11:39):
name of the book of my book is the Power
of It's actually.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
The power of dignity. Talk to me about the power
of dignity.

Speaker 4 (11:51):
How transforming justice can heal our communities. This whole idea
that ensuring that people just that they're dignity and their
respect for themselves remains intact, or that we pour back
into them can heal. The court house can be a
place of healing. Because what happened in nor was this

(12:11):
idea that we brought community providers. We brought religious institutions,
and these are your folks. So when they're done with court,
they need to have a place back in the community
where they can go to for help. So this idea
that the responsibility for everybody in the community lays on
everyone in the community, and so that it's so far

(12:35):
and that you could actually heal a person that comes
back to court because we are quick to punish someone.
You have a whole neighborhood that gets into a fistfight,
a whole neighborhood, four or five blocks, four or five homes,
and then somebody gets found a judy is a duticated guilty.
One person goes to jail, another person has a fine.
They still live on that same block, and we send

(12:57):
them back into that neighborhood.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
What have done, Let's go there to the neighborhood.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
Does the data still reflect that our incarceration system is
predominantly black and brown.

Speaker 4 (13:10):
Yes, it has to, because we haven't significantly changed how
we criminalize behavior. We have criminalized poverty in this country.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
You talk a lot about power of dignity respecting corethouses.
The reality is also that there may be folks who
don't see it that same way, who are in positions
of power that are not exercising making sure that they
are taking full responsibility for their right to punish or

(13:44):
I shouldn't say punished, because I think we're moving beyond
that language in this conversation to hold people accountable given that,
what is your thought about how folks who have been
formally incarcerated, how they should still have hope in a system?

Speaker 4 (14:00):
So to begin, I think we have to always separate
people like to close this conversation off about punishment about
rehabilitation by saying, oh, so now a serial killer gets
community service, right, And it's ridiculous. And I'm not even
going to engage in that, because you know, we're not
talking about people who are mass murderers. But what's worse

(14:22):
is that you want to put the mass murderer in
the same conversation as the person who is hungry and
steals the five dollars candy bar. And that's where we
have to shift, right, because I'm not saying that people
shouldn't be punished. I'm not saying that people don't have
to respect what's happening in communities. Even in restorative justice.

(14:44):
This idea is that when there is unlawful activity, it
creates a tear in the fabric of the community. What
we're talking about is not taking somebody who's a kind
is the low level offender and making them worse, taking
someone who's a drug dealer and making them worse because
we know, and not disproportionately sentencing people black people, or

(15:10):
disproportionately as some of the studies show dark skin or
more African feature. Like, all of this stuff is real.
So we have to constantly be checking ourselves, particularly judges,
particularly officers, particularly prosecutors, particularly public defenders and defense counsel
Why is it that I respond in this way every
time I see this thing? Right, So, that's self evaluation,

(15:33):
that's self reflection, And that's why I think that the
people who've been impacted have to feel that there's some
hope because now they're in positions to tell their own.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
Stories right there, and maybe even potentially in positions of
power and potentially even it's so interesting, maybe I should
be going to the first Film Festival.

Speaker 4 (15:56):
Which will be voted on by people who are incarcerated
at sing sing.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
Oh wow.

Speaker 4 (16:01):
Right, So this idea that okay, you want to make
a documentary about us? What do we think about that?

Speaker 2 (16:06):
That's right?

Speaker 4 (16:08):
Right, So that's truly giving people power about their narratives.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
Again, let's go to narrative, and let's go to your
own personal narrative.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Oh, I don't mind.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
Women of color represent about thirteen percent of all federal judges.
When you hear this data point, what's the first word
that comes to your mind?

Speaker 4 (16:28):
Why only thirteen percent?

Speaker 3 (16:30):
Right?

Speaker 4 (16:31):
Why only thirteen percent?

Speaker 3 (16:33):
How did you navigate just your pathway and becoming a judge?
How did you navigate it? Imposter syndrome feeling like.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
You don't belong? Assuming that came up because I know
you are, No, you don't, okay, you know it is.

Speaker 4 (16:48):
So funny that you actually said imposter syndrome. There is
a thread on Reddit. I went to go speak to
some young people and I think it was do something okay,
and one of the one of them asked me about impostuosyno.
And I was like, what in the world are you
talking about?

Speaker 2 (17:06):
What?

Speaker 4 (17:07):
What is that? And they started to laugh and they
told me what it was, and I was like, you
better stop spending so much time labeling stuff and working
out getting past it, because so many of us feel
that what happens when you don't get to see yourself

(17:27):
in positions immediately you begin to think that you can't
do that. My mother was a beautician whose first language
was Spanish. Who you know, you had to speak Spanish
in my house to eat. And my father, who was
an African American garbagemen, spoke a real terrible Spanish, but
he got to eat, you know, in these spaces, and

(17:47):
so yes, you go into spaces and you're like, wow,
my father isn't the partner at a firm. What am
I doing here? But the mission is more important than
me getting stuck on people trying to figure out what
it is I'm doing here. Watch this. That's one of
my favorite things. I used to sometimes do things in

(18:08):
court and the officers when I had first started, they
used to just roll their eyes and they would talk
about me, and I would know because they'd be talking
about me on one corner of the bench. I'm like, Yo,
there's a mic there. I can hear y'all talking about
the new judge. She just letting everybody go right, But
then the person would come back and I would say,
watch this. In the beginning, I was just crossing my
fingers hoping it would go my way. But this idea

(18:30):
that I was taking a chance because I trusted my
instincts about people. What I knew about people, you couldn't
take from me. What I knew about what happens if
you treat somebody respectfully is if you see their full
humanity and still tell them the truth.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
Was there a defining moment within your time before you
became a judge that led you to say, I'm going
to become a judge.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
This is exactly where I need to be in this moment.

Speaker 4 (19:00):
You know, there were a number of things. I'll always
say that God, I'm one of God's hard headed children
where I'm getting a sign and I'm doing the thing
that's like, oh, I'm not smart enough to do that.
Who am I to do that? And I remember coming
back coming to work for the City of Newark when
Corey Booker became the mayor and I was working for

(19:23):
the municipal council as the chief judge, and he started
bringing in these new judges, and I had a moment
of like, oh my god, how awesome it must be
to be a judge at this point because it's the
first point of the criminal justice system for the criminal judge,

(19:43):
but it's the first point of justice and most people
won't see the state court. But the opportunities that you
have at this level to really impact and change people's
behavior must be awesome. And that's when I started seeing it, like, Wow,
these people have what an awesome opportunity to do these things.
And I'm one of these people who's had a lot
of jobs, So losing a job, I'm like, huh, I

(20:06):
got I got skills to pay my bills, so you
send me home. At least I got one to go
to and I'm going to find something else to do.
And so that has been liberating. And I'm also a
woman of faith, so I'm like, God, I know you
got me. So it's a little scary right now, But
if I do this thing, I know it's not my
ego calling me to do it, but I just understand it.

(20:28):
And so again being free to say, you know what
if it doesn't work out here, because I could have
sworn I knew Mayor Corey Booker was going to send
me home. He's like, what's up with all the money
you're supposed to collect? And I'd be like, Oh, why
not you pay in six months? Why don't you just start?
You just lost your job, And so I was like, Oh,

(20:49):
what you're gonna do?

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Right?

Speaker 4 (20:51):
To be comfortable in yourself that there's always you have
to be willing to fail right, to learn and to
figure it out the right way, or to figure out
some form of innovation, like oh, this didn't work, let
me try it this way. Let me see if I
do it this way. So for me, a lot of

(21:11):
it was just keeping my heat down and just like, Okay,
let's rock with it. Let's see. And I think that
my staff initially was like, what is this crazy person
doing talking to the defendants so much? And I remember
having a judge saying, I saw people going down Elizabeth Avenue,

(21:32):
you know, yes, I know, I know Elizabeth with a
green folder. And it was like eight o'clock at more
in the morning running to the courthouse because they had
to be there by nine o'clock to meet your mandate.
And people would come and they'd be like, I've never
been on time for so many things in my life
since I got into this program, but it was this

(21:53):
expectation that I had, But not just an expectation, It
was this idea that I believe that you can do
better than we're You are bigger and better than just
being in a drug addict. So bring the person in
and I'll deal with them. But the drug addict will
always get you sent to jail, right, They're always going
to get you sent to jail. So come here and
show me who you are so we can get you help.

(22:16):
And sometimes when I run into people because I still
do you know. I ran into one guy at shop writing.
He was like, when you cared about me, I thought, bag,
she could care about me, then I must be something right.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
Maybe I could care about it.

Speaker 4 (22:33):
And how I have to care about me? Absolutely absolutely,
those simple just life lessons, how you would want to
be treated, how you would want someone in your family
to be treated. But why not do it?

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (22:46):
Why not? Because the one thing I knew was that
treating people respectfully, treating them and seeing their dignity didn't
make me less right because being vulnerable to them didn't
make me less And I think that sometimes that's what
happens with people who have power. They don't understand that
power and authority doesn't try hard.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yep, that's right. I want to get to this.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
We've had the experience of talking with folks who are
just like specifically black and brown residents, who are not
excited about voting and have yet to see the through
line in between civic engagement and how it even gets down.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
To how we get a judge?

Speaker 3 (23:25):
Can you just for those who don't know anything at
all about this process, how does me, for example, being
civically engaged get to me having the proper judge, for example,
ruling over our our judicial system.

Speaker 4 (23:41):
In the short, if you can't be excited about voting,
then you shouldn't be excited about complaining like you lose all.
That's it, judge, Judge jug paid, because that is the
point people don't. Before I become came a judge, I
worked elections. I knocked on doors, but I also looked

(24:05):
at maps and understood voting, like I understood that for
you to get elected in the city of Newark, you
had to get votes, like people had to go in
and push a button for you. Sure, and that meant
you had to know who the registered voters were. And
where they voted and how many you needed to get.
That's math, and it's simple math. It's simple math. If

(24:29):
I get five here, if I get ten here. Right.
And so people and powers that be maintained power in
communities because people don't vote and they get to control
the small number of people who do vote. Right, So
it is beneficial to people in power who want to

(24:52):
maintain power and not be responsive to the people to
not vote. And so I don't like to be played
for a fool, So I vote right because I understand
that if I vote for someone because we share the
same values or just the same interest on something, that

(25:12):
when they're in office and I'm like, oh, you said
that you think criminal justice should be for the people,
where are the judges that believe this? That's right, right,
Because that's what happens. The mayor decides who gets to
be a judge. The governor gets to decide who gets
to be a judge. So I can't complain about how
this judge in my community is imagining sentence and everybody

(25:33):
to tend life sentences.

Speaker 3 (25:35):
For your mayor and your governor is stay involved in
that process.

Speaker 4 (25:38):
And show up and say you said, oh, this is
going to happen. If it doesn't happen, there's a recall
because there's a process, and if it doesn't happen, you
don't get voted in the next time. And so we
have a responsibility to keep our representatives honest. Yes, we
have the we have it, but to sit back and

(26:01):
then go to the barbershop and talk about, oh, they
take all my money out my taxes, or.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
The beauty salon or the beauty.

Speaker 4 (26:07):
Salon exactly right, or the nail salon or whatebrities you
go to complain. And if you're an older person, you
need to be looking at opportunities for the people you're
leaving behind you. And if you're a young person, you
have to make sure why you go past this construction
center or or site and nobody there looks like yours
from your neighborhood's work because they don't have to give

(26:30):
you that because you don't participate in the process. So
why why why why?

Speaker 3 (26:37):
But you have to be active, active ads and hashtag
Judge Pratt said it. Judge Pratt, I want to thank
you so much. I want to emphasize, Judge Victoria Prette,
I want to thank you so much. Thank you for
taking the time to join us, and if you haven't already, please,
as you are thinking about engaging as a citizen, please

(26:58):
pick up the Power of Dignity. I myself cannot wait
to read it. And with that, America, we will talk
to you soon.

Speaker 4 (27:06):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Bye.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
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