Episode 21 featuring Cassandra Freeman

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The following is a paid podcast. iHeartRadio's hosting of this
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the ideas expressed. The following is a paid program. Wr's
airing of this program constitutes neither an endorsement of the
products offered or the ideas expressed. Welcome to Dear America,

(00:21):
where your voice matters and every vote counts. Join us
as we explore the power of black and brown communities
in shaping our future. It's time to make your mark.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
And be heard.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
Hello world, This is Dear America with Chanel Barnes, and
I am honored and humbled to be sitting here with
Cassandra Freeman.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yes what we need? We need a plus in a bag.
Just one class? Yes, no, no, not the slow class.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
So I want to give a formal introduction because I
want to make sure I do this the right way
for you, Miss Freeman. There are actors who takes and
then there are actors who transformed them into something unforgettable.
Our guest today belongs firmly in that second category. From
her breakthrough performance alongside Denzel Washington and Inside Man to

(01:14):
her current role reimagining the iconic Aunt viv and Belle
lear Ca. Sondra Freeman has built an extraordinary career, bringing
depth and authenticity to every character she touches world. This
is the incomparable Cassandra Freeman.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Thank you so much. Yes, absolutely, absolutely so.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
First I want to just talk about I want to
go back to the early stages. Tell us a little
bit about growing up in West Palm Beach, Florida. What
drew you to acting? Initially?

Speaker 2 (01:46):
So, I was born in West Palm Beach and then,
you know, like mini kids, the parents divorced. So then
I ended up moving to Jacksonville. So really all my
education is in North Florida, Jacksonville, Florida, Duval for those
who know the area. You know, I think think anybody
who gets into the arts, or I should say a
lot of people who find themselves doing something creative, it's

(02:08):
to save their life or to save their spirit in
some way. You know. I don't feel like, you know,
I was always sort of like the that weird kid
that just didn't fit in. And now what I know
for certain is if you are that weird kid, God
bless you. We're not supposed to be sheep and follow everybody.
And so what happened was when it was time to
go off to high school. I could have gone to

(02:28):
the local high school that everybody else went, and it
would have been very hard for me. Or I heard
about this magical place. It's like it's almost like Wicked
and it's like shiz University. Oh my god, I love Wicked,
and I'm like, so it was this place called Douglas
Anderson School of the Arts. And I heard there the
kids don't fight like people work over time to make

(02:49):
sure they don't get kicked out. Like it's people are
singing in the hallway. I was like, what is this fame?
So I auditioned for the band and I played in
the xylophone. Huh. And I got him for that, but
I also just a sea I got in. I was like,
I'll also do theater, like and so I do a monologue.
I did a monologue from Lorraine Hansberry's was Raising the Sun.
I guess, oh oh good. And I did both of

(03:11):
them and I got in for both, and I just
asked my dad could I just do one year of theater?
My dad thought it was the worst idea, and I bet,
I said just one yeah, Like, give me a break.
I just doing bands for three years in middle school,
and so I did the first year and I had
that moment where I felt like I transcended the time
that we were in and I was like, oh, and

(03:33):
what I felt like in that moment was the it
was like my spark of life. Sure, and so that's
what brought me to theater. And I think I might
have done like It's My Life is so stereotypical, it's
like the first play. I think I really had that
moment for colored girls who've considered suicide but have seen
the rainbow and it's enough, right, a good one. It's
a good one. That's and another show called Peace of

(03:54):
My Heart. And I just remember I had this moment
where I wasn't a kid in high school. I was
really seeing, hearing, feeling this other world and other people
felt it too. And I think once you have that
moment in anything, and that moment can happen anywhere, that
could happen to you as a teacher any place. When
you have that, then you chase that moment for the

(04:16):
rest of your life. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
Now I want to go take a step back, because
you mentioned at the top of your story that theater
acting it changed your life for it. It saved your life.
What was it saving you from? First of all, what
a great interview you are, okay.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Because you wait a minute, I heard something. So many
people are more dedicated to there are questions than dedication
to the curiosity and conversations, right, and so for me,
I just had So it's such a precarious thing to
grow up as a little person. When you're a little
person in this culture, and you're a black little person

(04:52):
and then a woman, the box you're supposed to fit in,
sure to not be seen, not to be too loud,
to go against the grain. There's pressure building up in
there like a teapot, and it's asking for a place
to have permission to express oneself, express one's viewpoint, feeling.
And theatre was this place almost like a mechanism to say, oh,

(05:14):
here's a monologue. She has to be angry. How angry
can you be? How curious about anger can you be
in this? How sad can you be? So that's why
I'm like, everybody should be an actor, even for a year,
to give you permission to feel everything. And that's how
it saved my life. I don't know who I would
be if I was this person had to suppress all

(05:37):
my feelings. I think who I am naturally. You know,
in this world, if you're a black woman, it always
sort of saying to you're taking up too much space
when we take up no space at all, like on
the map, we look if we take up a centimeter.
So if you were born with this feeling of like
take up space, it's because the culture is saying, please
take up more space so other people know they too
can take up space. And so that has been the

(05:59):
constant for in my life, like express more, take up
more space and have no apologies. And I feel like
the more I've done that, the more people have been like,
oh my god, thank you, because you living in your
fullness gives other people permission to live in Therefore.

Speaker 3 (06:14):
Oh, you're talking to my whole heart and my whole
soul right now. You said that I could be curious,
So if you don't mind, I want to be curious
a little bit more. At what moment did you actually
realize you are a black girl or a black woman
and you are in this box that you somehow need
to figure out a way to break free from.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
What was the exact moment, Ah, I feel like doing
a lot of moments right Equally, you know what's so crazy?
I just found this there's a yearbook. And then I
have this thing called a like a keepsake book that
you get in senior high school where you can fill
it up with scraps of different parts of your life.
And it's like, it's so weirre kind of forgot, but
there it is. When I was in fifth grade, there

(06:56):
was a newspaper article called the Long Ride Home, and
it was about kid It sounds like I'm about to
be rosa parts like I was born in nineteen thirty two. Well,
let's let's go there. This article literally says, because of
what was happening in Jacksonville at that time, they had
to reinstate in order to desegregate schools. And so I

(07:16):
was one of fifteen thousand kids who were bussed forty
five minutes to an hour long way away from home.
And so that started when I was in first grade,
and then you know, all the way to fifth grade,
I was always bussed to this other neighborhood. I didn't
know black was a thing because my best friends were
these white girls. I mean, I went to like the
best school in Jacksonville at this time, sure, but the

(07:37):
school was predominantly white. But because of that article and
because of like kids sort of asking me questions about
the otherness of me, the otherness of my hair. Listen,
the house I grew up in, Honey, it looks like
something from the Rust Belt. Okay, I grew up in.
I had a carosene heater in my house. Like, the
walls were made of concrete. It was just there was

(07:59):
a ditch in the front end, in the backyard. But
then I go to the other side of town and
it was just like magnificent, you know, space carpet from
wall to wall. And I remember this little girl's dad
picking me up, and I won't ever forget this conversation.
My grandmother overheard me talking to Lacey. He's my best
friend at the time, right, And my grandmother picks upon

(08:20):
She's like, you about to have a sleepover at a
crack of the house. You are not doing this, And
I start shaking, like and that was the moment I
was like, so this bad white thing is a big
is a real thing. It's a real thing. And I
remember Lacey's dad. It was a real thing for Grandma
as well, real, very real thing for her born in
nineteen fourteen, she got her own respective. Imagine. Yeah, But

(08:41):
when Lazy's dad picked me up, what a tremendous man.
First of all, he comes over to my side of town,
which looks very different from his part of town. And
when I get into the car, he says to me, Cassie,
don't worry. Lacey's grandfather's racist too. He's like, you don't worry,
you know. And I actually took it as a sign
of like, I'm safe here. Like he actually made me

(09:02):
feel less other but I understand where my grandmother was
coming from to But that was the first moment where
I was like, oh so. And then when I saw
Lacey's house, Lacey had a dollhouse the size of my house, y'all.
But can I say something.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
I know that dollhouse because my mom bought me a dollhouse.
The dollhouse set about as high as the first home
I tried to purchase, so I know these.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Wooden isn't crazy. It was wooden, wasn't it was.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
Like it was it wasn't real real door, and it
was wallpaper. We know, the dollhouse. I was like, not,
this dollhouse better than my own house. That's when I
realized I was not rich.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
Okay in spirit, yes, but not in bank account. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
You leading me, You're leading me to some of the
most important questions I have for you. You've been in the
industry through several pivotal moments in American history. How has
the conversation around race and the marriag affected the roles
you've been offered and the stories you choose to tell?

Speaker 2 (10:04):
Now that's a big question. I know. I didn't think
we were going to get there it that soon. So
we're here. Well, I say, I've said this a lot
in a lot of interviews that my career changed when
Michelle Obama hit the scene. Before Michelle Obama, it's almost
like what characters were available before Michelle and after Michelle.

(10:25):
Now that's a great documentary, Hi, I learn and call
me a production company because before her, certain black women
didn't exist, And of course they loved doing this thing
in Hollywood where if the black woman does exist, it
was really a white man character. They changed into a
black woman in the last moment, so now she got
to be lesbian, have no sex, nothing. But then after

(10:47):
Michelle Obama, characters were literally said like a Michelle Obama
like a Michelle Obama, and that's so transformative. Oh my goodness.
It has to be to expressiveness that you could be beautiful, educated, complicated, sophisticated,
all these things. So that was a big deal in
my career because all of a sudden, me being this

(11:08):
tall and uh if you think I'm regal, uh, sophisticated,
all those things were a plus. Were before it could
have been a minus. People would be like, you're from
West pom Beach and Jacksonville less West ponm More Jacksonville.
Jacksonville is south of Georgia, you know, when people even
though to me, Jacksonville's Filmore Jacksonville, honey. Jacksonville has a
lot of issues. Absolutely, And I used to dream of

(11:31):
just moving to the north. Yeah, sure, sure.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
But that's all I was like, if I could just
get to New York. I heard that's what freely is
with Rosa Parks. We went to Harriet Subbon.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
I love this interview. I love it. It was perfect.
All those gus live within us.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
You know.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
I feel like we're all walking around like a mixtape
of the things that we've heard. They're just in different order,
you know. Love it so so yeah, Michelle Obama was
very pivotal in my career. And I think also people
on viv all people say in my comments, you should
play on viv you should play on VIV I could
be anywhere in the water. We're like, you know, you
should play Michell Obama. You should play Michelle Obamba. And

(12:10):
I'm like, in general, people just want me to play
anyone smart in my complexion. Yeah, okay, okay, I don't
like I'll take that, but generally, I mean talking to
you now, I think you'd be phenomenal for the role
of Michelle. Just quick plug for anyone listening. I'm sure
Michelle Obama at this point has heard this. She's like, yes, yes,
but we already did it. Yes, start Viola Davis. We

(12:32):
love Viola Wisla. But do you know, even before that,
I think about my first role, which was with Denzel
Spike Lee's movie Inside Man. Remember when I got that role,
everyone was so shocked. They were like, shouldn't it be.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
Like a light skin girl with the waving I wanted
you to actually, if you didn't mind, just tell me
about that experience. It sounds like I would love for
you to take me from the moment where people were saying,
should you be doing that role? How'd you get to
this role to actually being in the role? Tell me
about that.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
I mean, all of people's comments about the road didn't
happen until the movie came out. Walking into it though,
was just I went to NYU a tish. Spike is
a teacher there. I'm assuming he might still be a
teacher there. But everyone in my class always bumped into
Spike on the elevator. I never bumped into him. But anyway,

(13:21):
at the end of grad school, you do a big
showcase in front of agent's casting directors managers, and in
that audience was Kim Coleman, who's like one of the
premier casting directors. She's amazing, She's done everything. And she
brought me in to read like a cop in that movie.
She's like cottonam Tin and that's why I was called like
cotton Tin. And it was like we're almost there, We're okay,

(13:42):
turn left, like one of those nothing you know, yeah,
sophistic cop. And then I was like and thank you.
And then I'm walking out of the room and she's like,
hold on, can you come back and maybe take off
the wig? And you auditioned for Denzel's love interest, and
I was like, how did I talked about this wig
on my head? But I will take it off, and

(14:04):
thank god I love that. That's the That's the first thing.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
Yes, Dizzel's love interest sounds good, But first.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
How dad this woman? Okay? But God bless him. I mean,
I like an imagine she's sitting there, be like, this
girl's probably beautiful without that thing on him, not even
a good one on her. She had a vision and
it wasn't written in the script yet, this role. So
I just did an improv. She was like, let's just
improv something, Okay. I said, Okay, I improv something, all right, deuces? Bye?

(14:33):
I leave. And then like a few days later, I
get a call saying, yes, Spike Lee like to meet
you in person to talk about this role. I'm like,
why do That's just a waste of my time. This
is a common thing. We're the wig And at that
time I had a short halle Berry hair, like that
was my look. So I meet him and the whole
time I'm talking to Spike, he's kind of listening to me,

(14:54):
but really he's looking at the game behind me, like
the Knicks a problem playing like this is probably the
worst time. Anyway. The whole time, I was like, this
is waste of my time and my and also just
to give you a sense of like who I was,
I wasn't even starstruck. My dad and my grandfather just
died maybe less than a month before all of that. Okay,
my father died unexpectedly, so it was defaicult twenty some

(15:16):
many years ago now, but it was. It was devastating.
And then my grandfather died maybe a week later. Uh
and then someone else that it was just so much
so me like meeting like someone that didn't really have
the residence of like mister Spike Lee. It was sort
of like yes, yeah, yeah, And I remember Spike was
like I can't imagine losing my dad that young. Wow.

(15:37):
All right, anyway, when uh Denzel's the one who picks
the uh denzil is the one who really picks this role,
so you need to stick around for a week. And
I was like all right, yeah, Jesus, But again I
was like, I ain't getting this role, are you. I
just I don't even know if I even walked down
the owl yet. And graduation anyway, I left town and
I got on I don't remember I was so upset
because I missed on Alicia Keys concert waiting around for

(15:59):
this and I have yet to go to a concert.
So someone called me up. So anyway, it's like an
unidentified number on my phone and I answered the call
and I'm like yes, and he's like, hey, this is
Spike Cassie. Is it true you left New York. I'm like,
you got spars like the plane just hit the tarmac like,
And I said, Spike, this is how you know that?

(16:22):
I was just in a different I.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
Can only grief is grief. Grief is grief, and grief
really griefs. Yeah, and it makes other things go silence.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
It does, you know, everything smaller, everything small. I was
just thinking about I need to get a job to
start paying bills in my life. I'm like trying to
look at and Spike's like, so you you in La
for real? I said, yes, Spike, I can't be sitting
at home way for denzehell washing to call me crazy.
And he was like that's all right, you got you
got the part. I'm actually in La too. I'm around
the corner and da da da da, And so my

(16:53):
friend need too was like what so I won't forget
like getting off the plane, getting dressed and heading straight
over to this hotel and he was just working on
some commercial. Anyway, I say that he was the nicest,
warmest person Evernzel too. They treated me not like hey, kid,
was more like, you're gonna be in this for a
long time, so let us show you what this is
all about. Anyway, So I do the movie. Denzel and

(17:15):
I even sit down a few times to really outside
of the film, to really make the role fit us
because it was written for white people that script, and
of course Denzel comes up, so you gotta make it
more like us. So we work on it l So
the movie comes out and the thing that people kept
saying to me was like, I can't believe they put
a dark skinned girl. Now, first of all, nothing I
don't know. I didn't know either, and so just now

(17:40):
are we I mean, I mean we not like I
don't you know. My dad told that was the Cantean.
I didn't know. There's so many shades. There's so many shades.
But people kept putting this thing of like oh yeah,
dy skin. And I remember the only thing I asked
from Spike and Denzel was like, can I not put
a wig on, like can I keep my sh short hair?
I want people to think like you can be beautiful

(18:02):
just like this. Absolutelyke's like, yeah, I don't care. I
don't think I want to do a doorstay shot with
you in it, and like that's exactly with me on
the phone, just sitting down the bed, was like, oh, baby,
just come back. I need that Yeah, I need that shot.
You know what I'm saying. And I was just like, oh,
so I didn't hear about it until afterwards. I won't forget.
Even when I worked with Chris Rock and I think
I love my wife. Chris was like, I can't believe
spodcast too. I said, I know he's you must remind

(18:24):
him of.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
An ex Okay, He's like so for so many people,
it was really shocking to them.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
I was so surprised.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yeah, well, I feel like you're doing a lot of
roles that may surprise people in some of the most
pleasant ways. I want to get back to Aunt Viv.
Your role is on Viv comes at a time where
we're having complex conversations about wealth, privilege, and blackness in America.
How do you approach these nuances in your betrayal of

(18:54):
Aviv Well?

Speaker 2 (18:55):
Before I got the role. I remember talking to Morgan Cooper,
who was the creator of this idea from a fan
trailer he made, and I remember we had a meeting before
I got cast with him and the showrunner at the
time or she knew something and I said again, I
was in mind, like y'all just rolling for me. Listen.
I love how some of the biggest things in my

(19:16):
life start with this is not for me, but because
I feel like I was such a different choice for
vis It's some of that rooted And what is that
rooted in?

Speaker 3 (19:25):
Is it that you're doubtful, Is it that you prefer
to not put too much into it?

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Where does that come from? I think one part is
just like it's such a big role, like Viv. Let
me tell you. If I was sitting around and being like,
of course I'm on Viv, like I'm sure that person exists,
I'm not.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
Absolutely I appreciate that, but I've seen the show way
to the way you see yourself in the mirror is
rarely matches up to how other people see you.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
And also Janet Hubert plays It's such a big part
of my brain is like Janet Hugh has a very
certain way and I was like, I'm not that energy.
And I said to them, like, are you trying to
replicate that because I'm not that energy. They're like, no,
we're not trying to do that. I said, okay. Also,
I cannot dance like Janet Humber okay, And they're like,

(20:14):
she was a dad sir, she was a Juilliard No,
and they're like, nope, we're making her a visual artist.
I was like, oh, I said, well, and they were like,
what would you do it? Throng and I said, I said,
it's not what y'all want, which is I said, I
think to approach this question, you just asked the black
people I know who live in that much well, who

(20:36):
I enjoy being around, do not wear their wealth. They
where where they're from, which is this one's from West Philadelphia,
So she should sound like she's from West Philadelphia. She
shouldn't sound like she's been trained to speak as if
she was born in the Northeast quarter of America. So
I feel like she should just sound like me a
little bit, like she should have moments where she even

(20:56):
gets way back. The people who I know in that world,
you know, money came as a surprise to them living
out their dream. They weren't following money for the prestige.
And I said, I feel like that's the heart to
me of Uncle Phil. Uncle Phil and Aunt Viv. They
both came from like a real place. Their kids are

(21:17):
very different people because they were born and raised and
wealth these people weren't. So I said to me, I'd
want her to feel way more relatable and she just
happens to live in a mansion. And they were like, well,
we like that idea.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
I mean, I love what I feel like I'm hearing
from you from inside out. All the way to this
is you're bringing this element of realness where you want.
You're expressing two people who you're not sure if they're
going to take it or leave it, but you're saying,
this is what I really want. I want to wear
my real hair. I want a Viv to be more real.

(21:50):
How did you find your voice in that? Because I
think there's so many people that may shy away from
pushing the boundaries a little bit.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Well, I think if you're an artist, you are actually
out here trying to interrogate life. You are constantly interrogating
who asked the question, Why did they ask the question?
What do they think is the truth? Why do I
believe my truth is different? I think the point of
the artist is to be somewhat certain, if not curious,

(22:17):
about what your specific point of view is. I'm an actress,
so the thing that got me started to be an
actress was that, you know, I am a lighthouse or
a calling from God who is here to express a
very specific point of view. So if you're interrogating all
of that, then you're always going to question things like

(22:40):
the black woman I saw on TV and film before,
what is not true or true today? That's what I'm
sort of looking at. And I always felt like something
about me was missing in the conversation. And you know,
the crazy thing is too, I sort of feel like
if you don't have your specific personality in the world,
your certain point of view, and maybe you're keeping people

(23:02):
from understanding why the wholeness of blackness, why the wholeness
of femininity is so beautiful? And so I feel like
they don't know I exist.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
If they know I exists, maybe racism would stop right ooh,
this is if they knew I exist, maybe they seem
like radical solidarity much more interesting than being isolated.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Absolutely, this is.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
A big conversation happened right now, Cassandra, And for those
of you that are just tuning in, this is Dear
America with Chanelle Barnes and I am sitting here with
Cassandra Freeman Slash. For the purposes of this moment in
our talk right now, viv can you share a moment
when you had to advocate for yourself or your character

(23:41):
in a way that perhaps did not land well.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Listen some of.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Them, because we've talked about some ways it did land well,
but anyways it didn't it.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Here's a little trick, okay, which is I don't necessarily
have an example of a time where it didn't work out,
because the slippery thing about being a woman is that
you find that there are many ways to keep yourself safe,
seen and heard. Men have their way too, and oftentimes
it might be more aggressive. Women have to find other

(24:15):
ways to be serviced to be heard. And so for me,
and I say this to actors all the time, the
director tells you something, the writer tells you something, that's fine,
but when they say action, it's still you who has
to do it. So I always do a take or
two that is for me, that's based on what my

(24:35):
belief of the situation is, and it has happened on
set where directors like, but what I said was but
what I said? And then at some point I have
to say, you know what, We're gonna do it one time,
my way and then tell me from there how to
change it. If I come in and I've already become
a full puppet for you, you're gonna miss out on
all these other things that might be here. I've never

(24:56):
known a time that that has not worked out where
I did my version and they're like, oh, well that
one too, and I won't forget. I was on Blue
Bloods and everyone on set had an idea about how
this character was supposed to everyone everyone, and they kept
telling me I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong,
and found the director's like, you know what, forget it,
just do it your way. And then I did it
and Tom Sellick was like, oh, oh, well, maybe it's

(25:18):
that way, and I was like yeah, but no one
ever asked my opinion. And all these white men trying
to tell me how this black woman would be in
the moment of her son being dead, her in front
of the commissioner, like, none of you people want to
ask my perspective. Could you not want to know what
I think about? Literally in the script that says you
act like you're a paragon of virtue? Were all these

(25:40):
men in the room and after that, they kept calling
me back and for that character, they were like, can
she come back again and do it over here and
do it over there? So I don't have a I
don't have a good example of when it didn't work out. Yes,
but it might. And then so I call you up, girl.
Let me tell you something.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
We gonna have you back on this show for years
to come, and we're just going to keep following along
with this story. But the truth is, the beauty of
what I'm hearing from you is that you stepped fully
into that advocacy. And I've just been in so many
conversations lately where people actually shy away from that advocacy
out of fear, out of you know, not feeling that
they were worthy to even be in that space.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
Well, first with what ad said, you know, first of all, Doci,
I can't wait to meet Dochi because she's a floor
girl and I feel like we have so much in common, right,
But she said it so perfectly. She's like, you have
to give yourself the freedom to be wrong, And so
I'm not really attached to being wrong so much, because
how do I come up with anything without being really messy.
It's called scratch paper for a reason, Like you gotta

(26:41):
be a little wrong to finally get it right. So
I don't really understand. I don't really understand the concept
of doing it wrong.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
I mean, you mentioned just like you're not some of
the things you're not really attached to. You said earlier
that you are. You mentioned a concept of other and
black women. Are you more attached to getting to a
place where people just see you and they see just
another person, or are you attached to people actually seeing

(27:08):
you as a black woman.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, it's just we live. I don't know. I go
back and forth on this all the time. We're on
like planet Earth, where everything on I feel like I'm
in a video game. And obviously I'm not enlightened enough
to have gotten off this planet because here the game
is black, white, left right. Yes, no, there is no
gray of possibility. But yet if you look at indigenous cultures,

(27:33):
Native American culture, there's so much gray to be held.
It's like, so, you know, I like being seen as
a person of full potential, like potentially, who is this
in front of me? That's the space I want to
live in. Blackness and everything else, like it's a part
of me. But I have lots of different voices in
my head, and they're not necessarily all black women voices.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
Absolutely, we're seeing more black stories being told, but there's
an ongoing debate about who gets to tell those stories
behind the camera. And I think you touched on some
of this a little bit when you mentioned walking into
a space full of white people that were telling you
exactly how you should tell the story, or are there
any of these other moments that you're experiencing a bad way?

Speaker 2 (28:19):
So what's the question though, of ways that people are
telling yeah, or.

Speaker 3 (28:23):
Just this concept that we're seeing black stories being told,
but there's a debate about who's telling the stories behind
the scenes. Do you have an opinion on what that
should look like behind the scenes.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
I don't think everyone who works on the piece needs
to be from that community. That's not creative. It's like
I don't have to be born mystical to talk about
mysticism either, you know, I don't mind Again, we were
talking about Wicked. It's an Asian American man who put
his foot on in that he might put his foot

(28:54):
and he had such a beautiful intro. I really love
when people have new, fresh perspectives, Like I don't mind
that Steven spielberryt sends to me. You're looking for people
with sensibilities, people who have a certain outlook and feeling,
and you're hoping that people are not saying no to
people just because of otherism. So you know, I don't

(29:17):
live in the world like it's a black show, everybody
need to be black. No, it's Asian show everyone.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
No.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
Do you know how cool it is when you get
other people's perspective from around the globe. I'm deeply interested
in that. I want to come play in other people's sandboxes.
What I think is odd to me, like it's sort
of related but not related, which is I can meet
great people who are not African American or female, and
they'll be like, you are so amazing. You know you
should meet another black woman just like you. I'm like,

(29:42):
so you don't know any great white women. You don't
know any great white men. That's what makes me more irritated.
I did a great TV show, I Guess last year sometime,
and I was so happy to be brought in a
space where it was just so dominated by femininity. There
was just women everywhere the DP this and the character

(30:03):
I was playing was like a little bit different, all
sorts of perspectives. That's what I'm more interested in.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
I love that we, as you know, we produce a
film Dear America, a Letter from Black women. Our director
is a white woman, our production team is Latina, and
it was a beautiful experience to me. But I found
people saying, well, you chose a white director, how do
you feel about that? And so I love that we
were able to explore this concept because I think we

(30:30):
were on a journey together learning about each other in
this moment, opposed to a white woman, or a Latina woman,
or anyone should be ostracized from the perspective of us,
our perspective as a people.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Listen, the way the way our parents fought can't be
the same way we fight. I think I keep saying this,
and it's gonna happen. It's like, listen, white supremacy, if
you believe it's here or not, all of these isms,
we could almot say it's partly our fault, because if
we are the storytellers. What happens when black people are

(31:05):
storytellers and we only talk about the great black people
and all the white people who beat them down. You
give no one for the little white kids to grow
up to become. They're a great white abolitionists out here.
We must give them a platform too. We must show
what solidarity looks like. And I can feel that some
people are going to be like, but y'all, let me
tell you what these colonialists do. They do so smart,

(31:26):
they subs. They separate us into so many groups that
then we become so fragile and brutal. It's easy to
break and it's easy to leave these people behind. You know,
Black Lives Matter worked out because everyone worldwide came together.
It one just black people. Everyone came together, you know,
even them coming after women who have babies. You know why,
that's a very tiny demographic. So it's a fragile demographic

(31:50):
to go after. You know. So I keep saying radical solidarity,
you need to hold hands with someone who does not
come from your neighborhood, who do not look like you.
If you really want to take back power, that is
the way to do it.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
I love it you talk about you know, just this
concept of fragility. How do you balance the responsibility of
representation with your own artistic freedom.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah, it's it can be challenging. I think my answer
to many things is like community. I surround myself with
people who see the vision that I have as well.
So then when I start to be like, maybe I
can't do it, They're like, what are you talking about?
That is your vision? We must do that thing. Community
has helped me out a lot. I think, you know what,

(32:33):
here's the good news. And I think this is true
for everyone. As soon as you start to feel like, oh,
if I say this, do this, they might say I'm
a sellout. If I do this, say this, they'll be like, oh,
she's not about us. That's a really exciting place to
be absolutely, because then you get to interrogate it and say, well,
what is the messaging now? And what is my messaging?

(32:55):
And so like this whole thing about radical solidarity is
because I kept being like, love doing black shows, but
why are there black shows and white shows? When I
went to Rwanda, Africa the first time, they said they
knew racism must be alive in America because your shows
are either all black or all white. And I was like,
thank you, thank you. So this is why Shonda Rhimes

(33:20):
is the genius that she is, because Gray's anatomy. It
was like a rainbow. Wicked is a rainbow of representations.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
A rainbow, but it's not fabulous, and it's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
It's fabulous, but it's not forced because I don't want
force representation. Please tell a good story with the right people.
Don't just fulfill a quota to be like I, you know,
did a great thing for diversity.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
So it's my understanding that we're on the last season
of bell Air.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Is that right? I mean, unless somebody got different.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
News, Okay, tell me a little bit about what we
could look to see it in the future and just
what's next for you overall?

Speaker 2 (33:57):
I think for bel Air, right, we feel so it's
a bittersweet ending to be able to come back and
know we can put a period at the end of
the sentence. I mean, we're in a even more outside
of this show. We're in an interesting time where you
might need a magnifying glass to find where our shows
are going to be in general interesting.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
I feel very that's a scary that's a scary place.
It is a scary yeah, and I think.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
For everyone scary, but we are used to living in
chaos and building a ladder out of chaos, like where
it's ever a safe place to be, to look like
us and to create. So I'm happy that we were
given this runway to finish out our story and to
respect our fans. I mean, we have incredible fans. And
I watch all I watch my show and I'm like,

(34:45):
this show is good. It's a good It just makes
my heart feel good. So we go back in a
few months to start filming this last season and you know,
I'm sure we're going to try to put a bone
some things, and I'm sure I have a strong feeling
that the Right are going to create new possibilities that
might have not existed in the past.

Speaker 3 (35:04):
Any possibilities that you can share.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
No, I'm not exclusive. You know. The thing is is
that if you saw the last season, you see on
viv Is pregnant, you know, I mean, so what they
gonna do with that girl? You know? I hear some
of the you know, the internet is talking, Yes, it
is talking. The Internet is talking. I'm like, there are
a lot of I mean, will got kidnapped? Like you know,

(35:32):
for me, I wish I hope that there's a spinoff,
like Jeffrey's life is so crazy, Like what is that life?
We really need to spin off, right we Jazz, will
Carl spin off, even Uncle Phil a viv Like they
just left this whole world of like exploring like new
ideas around a love marriage romance like this last season
was you did not want to watch it in front

(35:53):
of it with your grandparents. So there's a lot of
different worlds they could go off into it. And I
have no idea, And I think our writers and Carla Wattles,
who's the showrunner, is just so amazing. I don't know
for me personally and just in general, I think we're
entering a time where it might be more about the
creative than what we know. They just did the Future
of Jobs report and they're talking about the creative sector

(36:15):
is going to increase by forty percent. So there's a
lot of good news in the future. The good news
is us sitting here right now. We have no idea
what's about to come upon us. You have no idea,
and it can be for greatness, and I think it
will be greatness because yeah, they have AI but the
things that you will create from your own experience will
beat it, and I think YouTube will continue to be

(36:36):
one of the greatest leaders of content of art because
those who cannot make it over here will make it
over there. They will make it there and get to
keep their artistic expression very defined for themselves. I'm excited
Morgan Cooper. I'm gonna say his name again. He just
came out with this great thing called Yay Why a Why.
It's a very interesting viewpoint of yay Okay. He dropped

(36:58):
it on his Instagram, but the full film is on
YouTube and he then leaked out on Instagram and anthology
series is coming, and I'm like, ooh, like more of
that energy. We're going to see more is Array Donald
Glovers and even the things that I'm developing, it's liked.
Some things are like, you know, I have a lot

(37:19):
of rom coms. Oh my god, I am such am
I am a rom com girl, I'm such a.

Speaker 3 (37:24):
My fiance is always like, can we bridge into anything
but rom com?

Speaker 2 (37:28):
And I'm like, no, actually, I mean we're in a
heavy times. We need some nice, sweet we need love.
So it's that. But then there's this other world that
I can't speak too much about, but creating like a
different space of like how to have conversations just just
I think more ways of doing what you're doing right
now is something I'm really interested in.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
Well, I'm looking for more innovative, innovative ways to tell
the story. I want to do a quick rapid fire
if you don't mind, the most challenging role to.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
D Just quick rapid fire, nothing crazy. You know, there's
a movie I did a few years ago called uh
Story Avenue, Story Avenue, and I had to play this
mom and Hana. I did not want to play this role.
It was so hard for me, but I believed in
this director and God bless him. That was the hardest
rod Story Avenue. Okay, dream director to work with. Oh,

(38:22):
Gina Blindwood, that it's correct, Gina by the Wood, Gina,
you know, loving basketball, Ga Prince.

Speaker 3 (38:30):
She's checking in with the team for those of you
who can't see her, just to make.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Sure the coffee. She did the Warrior King. She's just
I love so good, yes even, and she is a
person I just want to swim in whatever it is
she is thinking about. I just love her entire vibe.
Amazing character you love to play.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
Oh so right now besides Michelle Obama which I think
we already claim that, right.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Okay, I'm actually really interested in two characters right now.
One is I'm interested in the idea about a black
woman being an archaeologist, and like archaeologist meets like Indiana Jones,
like this woman out on a quest. The second idea
is I want to do works that really look at

(39:20):
the myths of black people, like whether it's voodoo, whether
it's there. Risha's like, I really want to delve and
said this is Yes, there's a lot. There's a lot.

Speaker 3 (39:31):
You need to go home and copyright that real quick,
don't let Yeah, well there's someone from the World Team.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
Well but something kind of coming out soon. Someone told
me that lives in that. And then there's a couple
of authors who are doing things. So I've been like
sort of watching, like, oh, what y'all gonna do with
that book? What y'all gonna do with that book? Wait,
let me read it. Maybe y'all didn't do exactly what
I'm talking about. Yah, Yeah, And who know, I might
even go back and do stand up like I used
to be a stand up at the beginning of my career.
I can see that.

Speaker 3 (39:55):
I can see it because I've had a blast during
this interview. The best advice you received in your life?

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Oh, just one? Jesus, she should have sent this one
to me a month ago. Just one. It's you know,
because like my best advice. You know this sounds so crazy.
This don't answer the question. Yeah, of course. Of course
when I was younger, I would and this still happens
to me. I'll get a download like some type of
creative like information, and I knew if I said it

(40:25):
came for me, people wouldn't value it. So I would
make up a name I said. I don't know if
you heard, but Peter Waltstrom used to say reset is
your best So Peter Walstrop, Ye, this like a shout
out to Peter. I think your best advice comes to yourself.

(40:48):
If we understood what meditation is. Yes, when I go
into meditation, things that are not mine come to me, right.
So some of the best advice comes from some other world.
I love it.

Speaker 3 (40:59):
So but if I had to give you a quote,
so yes, tell me the advice from from Peter WALSTROMM
what was it?

Speaker 2 (41:09):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (41:09):
You know what?

Speaker 2 (41:10):
Actually I do have this. I don't know why this
is coming to me right now, but y'all. This is
the truest, truest thing ever. You should not trust what
you're thinking. If your emotions are out of alignment. Oh,
change your state, you will change your choice. If we
understood that, how many lives? Could we say how many lives?

(41:32):
So you could that that's from you. That's me synthesizing
things that I've heard people like Tony Robbins say, Joe
de Spends, even with Peter wals Reuben even like, if
you change your state of being, you will change your thoughts.
So that has helped me a lot in this life.
So when my thoughts start going crazy, I'm like, oh

(41:53):
is your tiet? Have you not slept? Are you're hungry?
This this does not sound a voice from you. Yes,
this is good. This is good.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
If there's one thing you wanted to leave our audience
with today, audience members out there, who are you know,
thinking about pursuing acting or you know, just you know,
being a black woman, being someone who's trying to find voice.
So many things we've discovered here, what would be the
one thing you would want to leave with the world.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
There's the metaphor about your own backyard is where the
diamonds are like literally think about every piece of great art.
Someone stopped and said instead of being like I gotta
get on a plane and like fly to Europe, no,
it was let me take out a magnifying glass and
look at myself and talk about the thing no one

(42:41):
else knows about. So your own backyard, I mean, and
if you look at black culture, it is literally our backyard.
Whether it's dirty or clean, that travels the world globally,
it's you. It's you are the secret sauce. You looking
at your life like, oh, my life story is like

(43:01):
the million dollars, Like it's the thing everybody wish they dressed,
look talked this way without apologies. When you look at
it like that, then you realize, ah, they are opportunities everywhere.
But if you look at it like ah, I can
only be great if I work with this a list
name Nope, backwards.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
Absolutely coming up here today. I just posted a quote
that you need to fall in love with your life
and explore what it looks like. So it resonates so
much all that you just said and the rom coms
that I can't wait to see.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Really, you know, evolutionary to see a black woman in
love and base an adventure. Absolutely. Maya Angelo says something like,
you know, freedom is the idea that you can like lose,
that you can fall apart, that you can put yourself
back down there again, Like I want to see black
women like enjoy ecstasy, enjoy adventure and start all over again.

(43:55):
Pray love y'all.

Speaker 3 (43:56):
What's the most significant change you've seen in storytelling since
you started in the industry?

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Most significant change, I mean just in general, just in general,
like if you leave the world of all the streamers
and all the things, I mean two big changes is
like what do movie theaters mean to us now? Isn't
what it used to mean? Like the most premiere content
you see might not be at your local movie theater anymore.

(44:24):
It might actually be on YouTube, it might actually be
on Instagram. These are huge changes. And again I think
it's an opportunity. I think when I look, I keep
bringing up Morgan Cooper because this man is iconic to
me who created bel Air. This man did it, how
he did it with money that he saved up. He

(44:44):
shot a trailer to the concept of this new idea
of bel Air and dropped it on YouTube, and Will
Smith reached out to him in like twenty four hours,
and it was like, is this real? Let's talk like
that's the most significant change. So when younger people ask me, like,
you know, how do I get to where you are?
I'm like, girl, the world is so different. We did
not have these pillars of distribution.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
Absolutely, And speaking of storytelling, I think you yourself are
venturing into some new ways to tell our stories.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Tell us a little bit more about that.

Speaker 3 (45:15):
Well.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
I have a company on the side called Creatricity. It's
like the electricity of creative people. It's more like the
most innovative and creative minds of people. We come together,
we do different sort of activations in person and within that.
I have a production company. And you know, people always
be like, you just have talk show, you to have
talk show. So my first I'm doing many things with
that concept. But one of the first things we produced

(45:38):
is this thing called Vinyl Confessions.

Speaker 3 (45:40):
Okay, I am a vinyl girl.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
Oh I love this a vinyl girl? Yes?

Speaker 3 (45:47):
So that and so do I bring my vinyl?

Speaker 2 (45:54):
Okay? So part of the show is that you bring
a vinyl, but I won't know what it is. We'll
have a whole conversation about the music. You listen to
growing up and it becomes like a securitist journey through
your life, and at some point we end up with
what is the one album that won't let you go,
that really sort of might define you as a person,
and let me talk. The album is always so revelatory

(46:16):
about the person sitting in that chair. You're just like,
of course that equals that, and the person talks about
that also. You What I've realized doing this show is
nothing is more intimate than a person's relationship to music.
Like your parents can't get into your ears and say nope,
you can't listen, you can't love that. It's your own
personal thing. And for me, the concept came from this

(46:36):
place of, oh, let's do something about things that people
can't let go of. So first it was around the
storage world people storage industries, a billion dollar industry based
on things people can't let go of. But you see
what I'm saying, like, who are you to let them go? Girl?
And then if you ask people what's in there, they
are like real stories there. And the thing we ended

(46:59):
up with was people can bring the one thing but
also bring music. And for me it was an album,
a three album container of Martin Luther King's speeches.

Speaker 3 (47:09):
Okay, and it was that's the vinyl that you would
bring to your own talk show. Yes, tell me why,
because no one's ever gonna get to ask you this
question because you're asking them the question.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
This is exactly Yes, amen, thank you, Yeah, okay. I
saw when my dad passed. Yes, and then you have
to walk through your parents' house and they're no longer there.
My dad used to be a DJ. He was the
first black television news reporter in Jacksonville. You're like an anchorman.
He was also like a black panther, so many things.

(47:38):
This man was in like just six seven magnanimous speaker.
And I saw this album my whole life growing up,
and out of all the album like cases of albums, like,
the only thing I could bring myself to take was
this Martin Luther King album. And I think in some ways,
in every way, it reminds me of my father. I
think Southern, the Southern dialect preaching talking is like melodious

(48:04):
so to me so and to this day I play
that album and that album rings true today as much
as it did when it first came out in the sixties. Absolutely,
and it's just beautiful art.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Too.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
It's beautiful art.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
My mom actually has one of the vinyls and every
once in a while she plays it and we listen,
and it's a beautiful experience. So I love that you
are going to be joining me at the New Jersey
Performing Arts Center as a pianelist along with doctor Malik Yoba,
in order to react to our film Dear America, A

(48:36):
Letter from Black Women.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
We're so honored and thrilled to have you honored. I
love you know, I'm waiting to watch it with everyone else.
The trailer that I saw just spoke to me so deeply. Also,
you want to know about a place talk to the
Black women. I feel like the voices that you put
in that teaser was like the earth. It just felt

(48:58):
like the truth of life. It just kept resonating over
and over, like a bell being rung inside of my chest.
And when I saw that, I was like, yes to
anything that is associated with that. Yes. And you also,
it feels like you give space for all these women
to really talk into their particular genius and way of
looking at this country. And I think there's something very

(49:20):
cleansing about that. And to give these women the microphone
and the world that we don't get the microphone verdia
off and that sort of way. I'm just very interested,
like what the tapestry of that, Like, what's the moral
tapestry at the end of this when we do we
realize like, oh we got a long way to go.
Oh we've come so far old, there's still parts of

(49:42):
us that we've never put a light on. Absolutely, but
also like just real talk, it just feels like to me,
a black women are like the epitome of just soul
and poetry. Yes, we really are.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
I mean I have to ask because this is a
question that we've had the privilege of asking every Interviewee,
Dear America, a letter from black women is a love
letter to America. So I want to know if you
were to say, Dear America, black women need what would
you say?

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Black women need space to be as authentically as they
want to be in the world without ridicule, with the
absence of saying this is the way to do it.
I feel like little black girls in US as women
more spaces to say. It doesn't have to be perfect,
it just needs to be your expression. I feel like

(50:33):
the deepest wounding, the wound of being African American is
to be told so young as a little girl that
you are not the epitome of what is good and beautiful.
It's like it's something that you have to achieve instead
of it's just something that you get to be. Yeah,
So creating more spaces like that. You know you know

(50:57):
this if you go to my Instagram, I post a
lot of things were my hair is all over my
head and I did one where my hair was all
over the place, right, And I'm talking to my son
off camera and I said, you know, I feel like
when I hair it's free, it allows us to talk
more directly than God. And he's like yeah, And I said, yeah,
so I think it's important that your hair just is free.

(51:17):
And he's like yeah, yeah, yeah, I love this.

Speaker 3 (51:19):
I'm about to go take my sewing out right now,
so I'm well.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Free your hair, but also just in general, like like
I feel like we the reason we love er Kambaut
dudeshod Day, like some of these women who come through
time is that you're like, oh, they just embraced something
that maybe we've been quiet about. Did you hear about
this whole ting non law? And I said, t I
g n o en tell me. So there you. This
is how me. This is the greatness of looking at

(51:47):
the diamonds in your own backyard. So I guess in
New Orleans there was black women would do their hair
in all of these like amazing ways. Crase, they put
feathers in them jewels. But it was so outrageous that
they were making the non black people not have there
like it's a little bit too much like this feeling
that we have that we're too big. It comes from
a real place. It's over and over again. You're told
that's too much. Be smaller, which means you must be greatness.

(52:11):
That's another conversation. Kat Williams can get into the next episode,
or or we can or weekend. And so they're like okay,
they're like starbuming, you gotta put scarves on your head now.
And they're like all right. So they start putting scarves
on that. But what do these women do. They start
putting jewels in the scars, the scars so much so
that it crossed the ocean. And when ree Antoinette started
to do it too, it started to be like high

(52:32):
couture to wear scarves here. So I'm like, listen this,
let me just get this out of my system. Every
time they mean to hurt us, we still turn it
into greatness. If you give us your leftovers, we still
find the goodness in this. You tell us to be smaller,
you'll be running after your own smallness. Like so these
people trying to take away DEI and everything else, that's okay,

(52:54):
we're gonna turn it into our goodness. Let me tell
you what these people should do, Dear America. If you
really want to hurt black people, give us everything. Give
us everything, and then we'll get lazy and we'll just
be super big. It's us. Give us everything. But the
more you take away, the more we have to be creative.
It's the dumbest strategy. Look at the play.

Speaker 3 (53:15):
The more powerful we have to be and the more
we have to exude all of our magic.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
I love everyone. Yeah, okay, we do, we do.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
And with that, this is Dear America with Chanel Barnes.
I have been joined with the phenomenal Cassandra Freeman and
I This can't be the last time that you come
on this show.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
Please don't let me do it. I'll be back next week,
same time.

Speaker 3 (53:42):
All right, all right, world, these are real stories, real people.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
We'll talk to you soon bye.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
This has been a Project Ready and a Freedom Studios production.
To learn more and effect change, going to Project Ready
njy dot org or listen anytime on all major podcast carriers.
The proceeding was a paid program. War's airing of this

(54:16):
program constitutes neither an endorsement of the products offered or
the ideas expressed. The proceeding was a paid podcast. iHeartRadio's
hosting of this podcast constitutes neither an endorsement of the
products offered or the ideas expressed.