Pope Leo XIV Takes on AI

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I want to talk about the new pope and how
impressed I've been with him thus far. And the one
area that I think I'm most impressed with is this
sense he has this sort of audacious program that apparently
he wants to set out on this audacious goal of teaching.

(00:24):
And it was revealed in two different spots. First, he
had this address to the group of cardinals. This was
about a day or so after he was elected, and
he talks about why he picked the name Leo the fourteenth.
So for those who don't know, when a new pope

(00:45):
is picked, he's got a name. His name is Robert Prevost.
And nonetheless, when you're selected to be pope, you take
on a different name, a regnal name, as they call it.
This tradition began very very early on in the history
of the Church, where someone was picked to be Bishop

(01:06):
of Rome, aka the pope, and his name was Mercurious,
which is, you know, the name of a Roman god,
a pagan Roman god. So everyone was like, eh, you know,
maybe why don't we just call you John instead? Or
I forget what the name he was that he picked
something for the New Testament anyway, So popes took on

(01:27):
the habit of picking a name different from their own name,
and in some ways this mirrors the pattern that's employed
by a lot of Catholic religious communities when you take
vows to live in community as a monk or as
a friar, for you know, different kinds of religious communities,

(01:47):
you take a new name. And this is itself a
little bit drawing off of the biblical example of the
changing of someone's name in both the Old and the
New Testament was always a sign of someone being given
some new mission. Abram becomes Abraham, you know, Jacob becomes Israel,

(02:10):
Saul becomes Paul, Simon becomes Peter, et cetera. So the
popes have always have done this for centuries. And he
takes the name Leo. Why does he take the name Leo, Well,
he is Leo the fourteenth, and he says that he's
doing this as a nod. The pope said that he

(02:30):
took the name Leo in part as a nod to
his predecessor with that name, Leo the thirteenth. Now Leo
the thirteenth is the first pope that there was ever
any like TV video of or you know, video camera
video of. He was the head of the Catholic Church

(02:52):
from eighteen seventy eight to nineteen oh three. And one
of the things that Pope Leo is most Leo the
thirteenth is most famous for is that he's the first
pope to He was a pope during the Industrial Revolution.

(03:13):
The Industrial Revolution is happening as he became pope, and
Leo the thirteenth wrote something that's called an encyclical, which
literally means a letter that's passed around, passed around to
everybody in a cyclical, in a circle. He wrote this
encyclical basically a long teaching document called Rerum novarum, which

(03:39):
literally means about new things, about new developments. And in
this Pope Leo applied the wisdom of the Catholic Church's teaching,
her ideal, her principles of justice, her ideals of justice,
and applied it to the very at that time, very new,
very groundbreaking problem and changes that were happening in the

(04:03):
global economy, looking at global governance, global economies, looking at
the way in which capitalism was reshaping our relationship with work,
Looking also though at the rise of socialism, okay, the
incipient rise of the idea of socialism at that time.

(04:24):
This is long before the Russian Revolution, and Leo charted
this ground for the Church. I'm not going to be
able to first of all, not being as fully educated
on Rare Room Navarum as I should be. Maybe I
need to go read it Leo though. To summarize, Leo

(04:47):
was sort of charting a course for the Catholic Church
to say, no, we reject so many of the principles
of socialism. The notion that the state should control all
of the means of production is and completely deny any
sort of right to property is wrong. We have to
reject that. On the other hand, there is a difference

(05:09):
between the Catholic conception of things and a pure libertarian capitalist,
laissez fair capitalist view of the world, for example. So
there's sort of this tension between the Catholic concept of
what's called the universal destination of goods. That human beings
have a right to property, but it is a right

(05:32):
sort of in a qualified sense in comparison to how
Americans think of rights. When an American talks about rights,
it's this iron clad thing that absolutely upheld by courts,
right to freedom of speech. If someone censors you, you
take them to court and you win. It's this ironclad
right more or less are the least. That's how we

(05:52):
perceive it, and for certain kinds of core constitutional rights,
that's how we perceive it. The Catholic Church, though, to
talk about rights in sort of more qualified senses. Yes,
you have a right to private property, but the idea
is that, well, ultimately your money, you're just a steward

(06:14):
of from the eternal perspective, the goods of the earth
that you have over the course of your life. You're
not keeping them. Eventually they go away. That's the universal
destination of goods. We are granted goods in this world
as custodians of it. And that's true both on a
supernatural level but also on a natural level. On a

(06:36):
natural level, you will die, you will not take your
stuff with you. Where is your stuff going to go?
From this Catholic conception, taxation is not viewed as theft.
The goods of the world are for the people of
the world to help them, and if governments play a
role in administering justice in various ways, taxation is not

(06:59):
itself intrinsically evil. Now, there can be just systems of taxation,
there can be unjust systems of taxation, and also there's
this idea that the political economy that are a capitalist
market system is not inherently, intrinsically always perfect. We don't.

(07:24):
The idea that the invisible hand always works, I think
is both you know, obviously wrong, given that the invisible
hand has often worked to create things like monopolies and
stuff like that. Often the hand of the markets can
work very well price allowing the system of pricing to

(07:44):
do its work, rather than a centrally planned economy. The
Soviet Union demonstrate to demonstrated to us how a centrally
planned economy of price fixing and price controls for all
kinds of things results in more unintended disaster, stress consequences
than one could possibly fathom. But there's a need for

(08:08):
governance to maintain principles of justice. Okay, let's think of
the example of monopolies. Okay, monopolies are not good. Monopolies
can happen quote organically in a laisiz faire system, and
there's not a lot of recourse that people can have
to stop them. So to have systems of law, to

(08:29):
have strong, a strong legal culture in place, strong foundations
of law to help govern your markets, to encourage competition.
But also then the demand to respect the rights of workers.
Leo wound up being very pro labor union. Lee are
the thirteenth writing and you know, at the turn of

(08:51):
at the turn of the twentieth century, Leo was very
pro labor union, just in the sense of, we need
to have some kind of mechanism to allow individual workers
to have the right to negotiate with labor, with capital,
with management on some kind of a fair playing field. Okay,
that the whole idea of a private sector labor union is. Okay.

(09:14):
Ownership is incentivized to keep most of the profits for itself,
for its shareholders, and one of the ways you do
that is by paying your labor less. But an individual
laborer might desperately need that job and therefore not have
the kind of negotiating power as himself by himself to ask, hey,

(09:34):
I would like a fairer wage. I'm working my butt off,
I would like a more dignified wage. That's hard to
do if you're just one man, especially if ownership, if
management views you as replaceable, well, you don't want to
work for this. Someone else will see it. Unionizing allows

(09:54):
labor to negotiate with management on a more even playing field.
And one of the things we saw in America in
over the course of the twentieth century was the growth
of labor unions did help with increasing the standard of
living and you know, building up you know where you
work the line at Ford and you can support a

(10:16):
family of you know, five or six to buy a house. Now.
So Leo the thirteenth was as a pope a really
kind of seismic. His writing of the document Rear Room
of Arm was this incredibly important Catholic intervention into some

(10:41):
of the great social, economic, and political controversies of the day.
Pope Leo. We've discerned this both from a speech he
gave to the College of Cardinals shortly after his election
and an interview given by a cardinal from Chile who
was saying at dinner after the papal election, he's there,

(11:04):
the cardinals have dinner with the Pope after they elect him.
And he asked him, sort of off the cuff, so
why did you pick the name Leo? And he got
this answer. This is what Cardinal Chomale from Chile reported.
He says, let's see if I can pull it up.

(11:26):
He told me. So, it's Cardinal Chomale saying this about
the Pope. He the Pope told me he is very
concerned about the cultural shifts we are living through a
Copernican revolution, really, artificial intelligence, robotics, human relationships. Chomale said

(11:47):
he was inspired by Leo the thirteenth in the midst
of the Industrial Revolution, wrote ree Rum novarum, launching an
important dialogue between the Church and the modern world. So
that's I thought that was really interesting. The cardinal continued.

(12:14):
The new Pope believes the Church has a vital role
to play in today's moment of perplexity. Cardinal Chomali added,
there is a Chomale talking there is a revolution happening
with ai et cetera, and it must be addressed seriously.
The Church can contribute through its moral authority and also
its academic strength. I'm so impressed by this, honestly. Now,

(12:44):
this is Chomallee reporting what the Pope said to him.
The Pope did, though, reaffirm it. The next day, he writes,
I chose to take the name Leo the fourteenth. This
is his address to the College of Cardinals. Happened about
two days after he was elected. There are different reasons
for this, but mainly because Poblio the thirteenth, in his
historic encyclical re Roum Novarum, addressed the social question in

(13:06):
the context of the first great Industrial Revolution. In our
own day, the Church offers to everyone the treasury of
her social teaching in response to another industrial revolution and
to developments in the field of artificial intelligence that pose
new challenges for the defense of human dignity, justice, and labor.

(13:27):
Why am I impressed by that? It demonstrates such confidence,
It demonstrates such confidence in the Church in the Gospel that, No,
the Catholic Church is not going to be some sort
of quiescent sitting on the sidelines, little nice social club

(13:52):
that you go to on Sundays that isn't afraid or
lacks the heft to speak to the powers of the world,
to speak to the wealthy and the powerful about what's happening. No,
we have the confidence that we are going to speak
about it. That the Pope, the leader of a billion Catholics,

(14:14):
is not going to be you know, kind of like
the Queen of England or King Charles or something, you know,
ultimately without much power, without much pristige, without much real
influence as far as changing what we believe no, the
Pope is going to stand there front and center and say, yeah,

(14:35):
we have this incredible treasury of wisdom, and the Pope,
as the head of a billion plus Catholics, has the
moral authority to credibly stand there and teach about these

(14:55):
new developments and try to apply the Gospel to them,
try to make sense of them, try to understand the
serious ways in which AI and other developments are going
to have real serious consequences, some good and some maybe
quite bad for economies, for labor, for human dignity. When

(15:17):
we return, I want to talk about some of those things.
That's next on the John Girardy Show. Pope Leo the
fourteenth announced he took this name because, like his predecessor,
Leo the thirteenth, who was pope from around the turn
of the twentieth of the nineteenth into the twentieth century,
was one of the first popes to really engage with

(15:38):
the economic and social changes brought about by the Industrial Revolution.
Pope Leo the Fourteenth, elected last week, wants to apply
the wisdom of the Church to the new industrial revolution
that we are about to face, particularly with a I
I think this is such a needed worthy in some ways,

(16:01):
even audacious program for the pope, an audacious goal for
the pope to really tackle this, and it's such a
breath of fresh air in a way. I think for
a very long time, maybe since JOm Paul the Second.

(16:22):
I don't know Benedict the sixteenth a bit, but I
think much of the papacy of Pope Francis, and to
a certain extent, a lot of the bet Popenedict's papacy,
maybe for better or for worse, A lot of it
was focused ad intra, if you will. On the inside.
It was the Catholic Church thinking about itself, talking about itself,

(16:45):
and that's not a bad thing necessarily, that's not always
a bad thing sorting out, you know. Pop Benedict was
very concerned, for example, about the Church's public worship and
how how do we express our public worship. He tried
to liberate the Latin Mass, allow every priest to offer
the Old Mass, the pre nineteen sixties right of the
Catholic Mass, which was celebrated mostly in Latin. He tried

(17:10):
to give every priest permission. He gave every priest permission
to say that because he wanted the church's interior expression
of itself to be coherent and Pope Francis kind of
undid that. Frankly, Pope Francis also wrote a lot about
the topic of evangelization, and maybe one of the most

(17:32):
positive aspects of his papacy was his eye, which Pope
Leo himself cited in his first address, was the kind
of approach to evangelization that Pope Francis laid out the
primacy of Christ in proclamation that our missionary efforts shouldn't

(17:54):
be first about well, we're helping people, helping build wells. No,
the primacy of our missionary works should be about Jesus Christ,
which was a principle from this document. Pope Francis wrote
about the subject the missionary conversion of the entire Christian community,
that every part of the church must be viewed as
a mission field, greater collegiality between bishops. These are all

(18:20):
good things that Pope Francis talked about and did, but
it was very internally focused. It was the church sort
of focusing in on itself, looking at itself, and perhaps
I think from many people's point of view, one of
the least successful aspects of Francis's papacy that was very
navel gazing was the constant synods that Pope Francis would hold.

(18:45):
A synod is a gathering of a group of the
world's bishops to talk about something, And most of the
synods that Pope Francis convened over the course of his papacy,
it was about internal stuff and they were these very
high stakes things, felt very highst where we were like
talking about stuff that everyone thought was already settled. Should

(19:05):
divorced and remarried Catholics be able to receive community? Well?
John Paul the Second had already very firmly established that
as a no, why is it now a topic of conversation?
Should pre skip married? Like why are we revisiting this?
It's been asked and asked and asked and said no,
And ultimately Pope Francis said no, should women be able
to be ordained deacons? Why are we doing this women?

(19:28):
We've been asking the question, asking the question, and the
Church has said no, no, no. It was a lot
of stuff about internally what the church thinks about this
that or the other. Uh? Should uh, you know, gay
couples be blessed? Pope Francis in twenty twenty one said no.
Pope Francis in twenty twenty three or twenty four said oh,

(19:49):
maybe under certain conditions and then said no again. So
I feel like a lot of And this reached its
sort of zenith, of sort of internal looking when we
had a synod, a gathering of all the world's bishops
about cinnidality, a synod about the topic of meeting for

(20:13):
synods to talk about stuff, talking about talking, and I
think it's very refreshing to hear from the pope, the
new pope, you know what we're going to talk about.
You know, we're so busy talking among ourselves that we've

(20:33):
got these enormous cultural shifts happening, and the Catholic Church
got to engage with this stuff. So to see a
pope who is relatively quite young, relatively speaking, or at
least young enough that he's able to engage with and
understand this stuff. Okay, the last two popes we elected God,

(20:54):
you know, God bless Pope Francis, got blessed Pope Benedict.
But Pope Francis was seventy seven when he was elect
Pope Benedict was seventy eight when he was elected. Much
most of their respective papacies, they were in their eighties.
To have a relatively young pope who understands these shifting

(21:16):
tides of technology, you know, the first pope to have
had a Twitter account, I think is actually really important
and kind of refreshing. So I'm very hopeful about this
idea that you know, we have. We've got a lot

(21:37):
of this internal stuff figured out as a Catholic Church.
We should have confidence that the wisdom we have developed
about human nature, the wisdom we have come to learn
over you know, two millennia of reflecting on the Gospels
about human nature, about human dignity, about you know, how

(22:00):
labor and capitals should interact with each other, about technology
and technological developments and the ways in which it offsets
labor and human dignity and all of those impacts. For
the Pope to have that kind of confidence and say,
all right, let's look outward and yeah, we can still

(22:22):
meet in synods to discuss stuff, but maybe let's take
you know, as as Cardinal Cardinal Chomale said, talk so
that this Chilean cardinal who's talking about Pope France's wanting
to do this. Cardinal Chomale, this is him sort of
secondhand reporting what the Pope said so don't take it

(22:44):
for the gospel. He says, the church can contribute through
its moral authority and also its academic strength. Yeah, the
Catholic Church has got more brilliant academics at more universities
who have thought deeply about this stuff, meditated about this
stuff from the perspectives of law and economics and bioethics

(23:07):
and so many perspectives. And for the pope to say, yeah,
let's take all of that, let's take all of the
wisdom I can, and let's address this stuff. I mean,
I can't. I'm so impressed by it. And I really
hope that Pope Leo's got the time and the ability

(23:29):
to really seriously address this stuff. He seems like a sharp,
a very intelligent man. And I gotta say, I'm I'm
you know, I'm really hopeful about this papacy and you know,
he this this man could be pope for the next

(23:49):
twenty years. And I'm really liking all the initial signs
of what I see, or very much most of them.
So I'm I'm superre excited about all of this. When
we return. What are some of these issues where AI
is impacting justice, labor, ethics, bioethics, et cetera. That's next

(24:10):
on The John Girardi Show. But Leo says he wants
to have the church engage with discuss teach about what
he's sort of being called the next Industrial Revolution AI,
new technologies that could be replacing human work, and I

(24:31):
want to talk about what some of those challenges are,
what some of those challenges could be. I've seen this
sort of on a very practical level. My sister is
an animator for Disney. She's she's a computer engineer, she's
a computer scientist and animator for Disney. So she's sort
of at the level of for several Disney movies that

(24:55):
she's worked on. If you look up Christine Gerardi, you
can see she's in the credits for Frozen Too and
Canto and a bunch of other Disney animation not Pixar,
but Disney animation films that have been released the last
several years. One of the things she sort of told
me is that the union she's a member of is

(25:18):
incredibly concerned in its negotiations with Disney over AI. And
I remembered her talking to me about it a couple
of years ago, and I was like, Eh, you know,
how bad, how bad can it be? You know? And
now I realize, oh, yeah, that's bad, because I think
a lot of what AI can be used for is

(25:41):
very simply to replace jobs, the jobs that engineers and
animators have and coder you know, doing computer coding, where
a lot of that stuff seems like the kind of
thing that you can set artificial intelligence to do. Mean,
we're already starting to see AI generated video. There's starting

(26:04):
to be AI animation generated commercials now that you're starting
to see. I mean, they're kind of painfully obvious. The
AI is not very good yet, but it's getting there,
and we're only kind of starting to see the level
of disruption that AI can have within then. As much
as I hate the word disruption everyone it's such a

(26:27):
LinkedIn word, Oh I'm a disruptor, disrupting the kind of
oh it's a disruptor breakthrough anyway, the kinds of disruption
that AI can have within the labor market, the ways
in which artificial intelligence can replace human beings. And this

(26:47):
is why I'm excited that the Pope's can write about it,
because I think every country, certainly every country in the West,
is going to struggle with this. Are we going to
allow AI to lay off a ton of people. We
put limits on the kinds of things that AI can do.
How does automation, you know, automation that is replacing human

(27:08):
jobs with those human beings got to do something? You know,
do we say yeah, second up, buttercup? Or you know,
how do we deal with these things? This is not
the first time that the Catholic Church has dealt with
the problem of an industrial revolution where technology is replacing
human beings and human labor, and the question of how
do we justly and fairly treat human beings and human labor.

(27:30):
Now there are other and in some ways more sinister,
even more even more sinister. I'd say, developments with AI
that I hope the Pope is willing to touch upon
because it has to do with bioethics. There's a story

(27:52):
from the New York Times from I believe this was
this was a year ago April twenty second, twenty two,
twenty four. Generative AI arrives in the gene editing world
of crisper CEERIPR, much as chat GPT generates poetry. A

(28:15):
new AI system devises blueprints for microscopic mechanisms that can
edit your DNA Generative AI technologies can write poetry and
computer program This is an article by Kaid Mets from
the New York Times. Generative AI technologies can write poetry

(28:35):
and computer programs, or create images of Teddy Bears and
videos of cartoon characters that look like something from a
Hollywood movie. Now, new AI technology is generating blueprints for
microscopic biological mechanisms that can edit your DNA, pointing to
a future when scientists can battle illnesses and diseases with
even greater precision and speed than they can today. Now,

(29:02):
crisper technology is already here, crisper methods or mechanisms to
sort of alter genes, but now they're going to combine
that with artificial intelligence. The hope is that the technology
will eventually produce gene editors that are more nimble and

(29:23):
more powerful than those that have been honed over billions
of years of evolution. Do you begin to say, I
don't think most, including myself talking here, I'm not saying
I understand it all. Probably most of you don't understand
it all either, the kinds of moral nightmares that this

(29:48):
can produce, especially in combination with I'll say it, a
growing acceptance of IBF. If you're going to be creating
large numbers of human being in glass in vitro, and
you have the technology to edit the genes of this

(30:09):
large number of human beings, then as a way of
selecting out the best ones, are we approaching? Especially you know,
there are some countries like Spain where over I think
it's eleven percent. I forget if it was eleven percent
or fourteen percent. Over ten percent of children in Spain
are conceived via IVF. IVF doctors who do IVF. There

(30:38):
are some of them who talk about the idea that
a generation or two from now, IVF is going to
be the only way that human beings are created, that
sex will just be for fun and will not have
anything to do with creating babies. Now, I think this
is a moral enormity. I have, you know, on this

(31:00):
show long been you know again, I'm not I recognize
there are probably many people listening to this who have
conceived children through IVF. I would say, though, that there
are serious ethical problems with the practice of IVF. I
think it results in the creation of far more embryos
than can ever actually come to term as babies. The

(31:22):
wastage of embryos is I think very serious and frankly,
I also think though, that the create you know, and
again this is with full acknowledgment of many parents who
very deeply long for children, who have this natural desire
for a child, and who are desperate to find some
way to make that happen. I don't belittle that desire, however,

(31:51):
I guess I would just ask how far away from
natural reproduction can we go? And you're still okay with it?
Are you at? Are you okay with human cloning? oOoOO? Okay,
that's more scary, right? Why? Why is why is human
cloning bad? Why is human cloning bad? Tell me why
human cloning is bad? Well, it's bad, you think, because

(32:15):
it's so far away from the natural order of things.
And I think there's something to be said for the
creation of human beings outside of the context of marital love,
outside of the context of love as a gift, if
you will, not a human being as a product to
be as as happens today with IVF, where parents will

(32:35):
select out. I want this embryo, but not this embryo.
This embria is the best chance of survival. This embryo
is a boy. I want a boy. This embryo is
a girl. I want a girl. Now, not everyone who
uses IVF does that, many do. It's sort of blatantly

(32:55):
eugenic in many, many, not all cases. And again I'm
not impugning the motives of any individual person who has
done IVF, people who don't understand the moral implications involved,
people who are really just motivated because they want a kid.
I understand that doesn't change the inherent nature of the thing.

(33:18):
So introducing AI into that AI being used as a
tool for gene editing human beings, we're on the cut.
I think the Pope rightly identifies Leele the fourteenth rightly

(33:39):
identifies we are on the cusp of what could be
a Copernican revolution when it comes to AI and what
its implications can be for mankind. To have a world
where human beings are being purely created in labs, where
we human beings are just being discarded, where gene editing

(34:02):
is taking place with embryos, or you know, early stage
human organisms as sort of playthings for scientists, or you know,
you know, well we screwed up with this one, let's
do another one. The moral implications of all that are
deeply terrifying. The idea that any human organism is excluded

(34:27):
from the human family is wrong. Look, it sort of
startles me how often I will get a Republican leaning
pro life person who does not like abortion and think
that killing an embryo in the womb, killing a fetus
in the womb is wrong, But for in vitro fertilization.

(34:50):
I guess because they have a friend who does it,
a neighbor who does it, a cousin who does it,
who used it, that same kind of embryo being created
and and definitely thrown into storage or discarded, that they
cannot understand the wrongness of that or why that would

(35:10):
be morally problematic. I don't know what it is. I
don't know if it's just a thing of IVF is
sort of a thing that's commonplace among upper middle class Americans,
whereas abortion is less common. But for Americans who are
sort of lower on socioeconomic scale, abortions more common, therefore
more accepted. I don't understand the sort of to the

(35:35):
principle of non contradiction not being followed here. If an
embryo is a valuable member of the human species, then
an embryo is a valuable member of the human species.
You can't say it's okay to destroy one in the
context of abortion, or it's okay to discard one in
the context of IVF. And I think I think the
Pope wanting to engage with this now set the churches,

(35:56):
you know, plant the church's flag on this stuff right now,
because this stuff is coming. This stuff is coming down
the pipeline, the ideas of gene editing and all this stuff.
I really hope the Pope gets the time and the
ability to write about this, to teach about this, to
get the best thinkers possible, to apply the wisdom of

(36:20):
the Gospel to this. I am very I think this
is such an important thing. It's an audacious project for
the Pope and a necessary one. When we return my
favorite punching bag, President Unified. You know they're running commercials
for presde Unified. Yes, the school district that you compulsorily
have to send your kid to. Next on the John
Girardi Show, So my wife and I TV was on.

(36:44):
I think it was. I think it was on. It
was on a network show and we might have been
watching Wheel of Fortune or something, Okay, so Network TV
and I think no, we'd finished up Jeopardy, That's what
it was. We're a Jeopardy family, not a Way Wheal family.
And an ad comes on for of all things, Fresne

(37:05):
Unified School District, and I immediately say to my wife,
what the heck is Fresnew Unified doing running television ads?
If you live in the district and your kid has
to go to school, what do they need to advertise for?
And Holly, He's like, well, it's for preschool. You know,
they don't compulsorily have to send their kid to preschool.
It probably makes the money. Like, oh, okay, well maybe lame,

(37:26):
but okay. And then in the picture, my wife took
us a picture on her phone of the TV ad
on our TV. It's sign your cut up for TK
for preschool kindergarten with the Fresdent Unified School District. And
it's got a child looking at a laptop screen or
is that an iPad screen or a laptop screen, just

(37:48):
staring at it. Let me just a word of advice
for Fresdent Unified. Having kids stare at screens is not
helpful for learning books. Have you heard of him? They're
bound with like they're made out of paper, cardboard, for

(38:10):
the covers. You glue, you sew in the pages. You
you put words on them, and you read, reading from
a book, not a screen. That'll do it. John Dierardy Show,
See you next time on Power Talk