In busy draft week, Rockets add Reed Sheppard, AJ Griffin

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(00:02):
Cheers, Rockets fans, Welcome tothe Logger Line, an exclusive podcast from
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Brewing. I'm Ben Dubo's editor ofUSA Today's Rockets Fire, contributor or Sports
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can follow him on Twitter slash xat Palo Owls. NBA me at Ben
Dubo's so recording this Thursday night,June twenty seventh. The NBA draft is

(01:06):
in the books that It's been abusy couple of days for the Rockets.
They drafted Reed Shepherd largely as expectedat number three overall, traded their second
run pick for aj Griffin, nearlya lottery pick two years ago. A
lot of excitement there and then ofcourse, the headliner was the trade involving
future draft assets, the Rockets sendingtwo picks back to the Brooklyn Nets for
four future assets three from the PhoenixSuns, that are widely viewed as being

(01:32):
very positive given the uncertainty with theSuns moving forward. Talked about that a
little bit on yesterday's solo pod.We'll get into that war today. We're
going to save that for the backhalf because I want to discuss what's going
on with the first round of thedraft Wednesday night and the second round on
Thursday afternoon first, because that's new, and I'm actually going to start with
the second round because I think withReed Shepherd, a lot of that was

(01:53):
baked in. We've talked about himfor a while, and it's great that
the Rockets ad shooting. He alwaysmade the most sense to I think both
of us because he fit in themajority of roster constructs. So if it
was close air on that side,totally get it. But then Thursday afternoon
to trade what would have been ajo hum pick forty four in the middle

(02:13):
of the second round and a subpardraft for aj Griffin, a guy who
was picked number sixteen overall, onespot ahead of Terry Easton two years ago,
and at one point we were lookingat as a potential candidate at number
five overall, had the Rockets notone one of the lottery picks, and
that was the year the Rocket hadthe worst record in the NBA at twenty
and sixty two. I remember tryingto talk myself into AJ Griffin at five

(02:37):
being an okay scenario. Somehow,the Rockets two years later land him at
number forty four overall or with thenumber forty four overall pick, and they
got him using the Kevin Porters inyour trade exception. So it's one of
those deals in Atlanta trying to getclose to or beneath the luxury tax line.
The Rockets had a four point fivemillion dollar trade exception from the kpj

(02:58):
Oladipo trade last fall, so ratherthan let that expire, Rockets choose that
to absorb Griffin, who makes nearlyfour million dollars a year. And so
at this point you were able touse Kevin Porter Junior and what was left
of his salary for both Steven Adamsand AJ Griffin. From a financial perspective,
so I think it's probably a reachto consider Aj Griffin a rotation player

(03:21):
next year unless there are injuries.But the reason I want to lead our
discussion with this deal is because Ithink it speaks so well to the process
in place in Houston and the leadershipof general manager ravel Stone. It's been
a really good couple of days forhim. He's gotten a lot of praise
around the league, and I justthink this speaks well to the process on
a few levels to turn a midsecond round pick into a legitimate asset.

(03:42):
Look, he didn't play a lotin year two. There was sort of
a perfect storm of circumstances. Henever seemed to be the ideal fit with
Quinn Snyder. He had a fewankle springs. There was also a family
tragedy, so he had some offcourt issues to deal with. But he's
one of the youngest guys in hisdraft class. He's just twenty and as
a rook when he was just nineteenyears old, averaged nine points a game
in about nineteen minutes while shooting almostforty percent from three. So this is

(04:06):
not a reclamation project. This isnot like the Rockets ditching Usman Garuba last
summer and the Hawks just taking aflyer. No, this is a guy
who legitimately has been a quality NBArotation player already. He wasn't last year,
but there were some circumstances. Andso you combine the skill set of

(04:27):
AJ Griffin that had most people expectinghim to be a lottery pick in twenty
twenty two, and the shooting componentof it, which is something we've said
all off season the Rockets need moreof. It's just a pretty ideal fit.
An athletic six foot six, firstof all forward who's just twenty years
old. You can plug and playin a number of configurations. And so
to get him with just a midsecond round asset and a trade exception from

(04:50):
a guy who had no value atthe time, just really good asset management.
And I think that's one of theone questions of rafel Stone. He's
gotten the big things right. We'vetalked about the trades, the draft picks,
but the little moves around the margin, that's always been the question.
And this is an ideal one becauseit shows you the process was sound on
a few levels in terms of maximizingthe value of a second round pick,

(05:13):
using the trade exception, targeting aneed with shooting. Perhaps, as you
said on Twitter, Palo leveraging therelationship with the Hawks. A lot of
people were upset because the Rockets,after not getting Brook Lopez, stuck with
the salary dump a year ago,sending Uzban Garuba and ty Ty Washington to
the Hawks along with a couple offuture second round picks. Perhaps that's the
reason that Atlanta turned to you fortheir salary dump a year later, shedding

(05:38):
AJ Griffin to get beneath the luxurytax slide. It just checks a few
boxes. And while I think itwould be unrealistic to say we know for
sure that AJ Griffin is going tobe a rotation player here, I just
think the fact that it checks somany boxes and works on so many levels
speaks well to the system, theprocess the Rockets have in place, and
so to me, it just sortof confirms that this front office knows what

(05:58):
it's doing and you should have confidencein what the Rockets are building. So
not that AJA Griffin is the biggestdeal the Rockets made this week or biggest
acquisition, not by a long shot, But I just think it well.
Number one, it's breaking as we'rerecording this on Thursday. But number two,
I just think it speaks so wellto other elements of the organization and
what raphel Stone is building. Powell, what were your thoughts when you saw

(06:21):
that break earlier today? Well,I thought it was a steal. I
know there's there's people who are loweron on Ak Griffin, but I don't
think you can deny that. Ifyou were to be drafted as as a
twenty year old in this drafted,I think it'd be a lot of rat
pick pretty pretty safely. I think, I mean, how much ver do
you expect the connect to be heatenhim? And he's three years younger,

(06:46):
right, so I think, yeah, I think at the very least with
aj Griffin though this she forcat isgoing to be a great shooter. That's
upside with this athletic profile. There'she's you know, strong driving. You
obviously had a really good rookie seasonthat had some trouble in the second year
or not really in the second year. More so when the Hawks sweetly go

(07:06):
just to Quinn Snyder, he basicallyfell off the map. So you have
a lot of explanation for why hefell off the map, or even if
he doesn't. Right, even ifyou completely disregard what Hedriven the player is,
you can justify the trade is justtrurely by the fact that he is
making four point six if I'm notmistaken million dollars a year, you're keeping

(07:28):
the tpe that was about to expirealive. Pig forty four in a very
weak draft. I mean big fortyfour in general is slightly knocking up by
now that if if I pick inthe twenties, has like a twenty percent
chance of getting a second contracted,I don't have a percentage different than me,
but imagine a picket forty four wouldbe substantially lower. And I think

(07:49):
you know, at the very least, if you were to make the trade
in the future, now, maybeyou can keep Jeff Green and include so
one Lie. You can keep oneof the valuable but the Rockets may have
at the time and include him instead. He obviously has a team option for
the fourth year. After that,he's a restricted free agent, widely not

(08:11):
going to to meet the start rightyear, so the gap hold will be
small. It just makes a lotof sense just from a nasset management standpoint.
And then, as I said,Aj Griffon is a very interesting prospect.
I remember back in the twenty twentytwo draft when the Hawks were up.
I was just you know, inheaven, because hey, if we

(08:33):
can get Tyresan, who was myfavorite guy at the time, but if
not, I think A. J. Griffin's are is a stealer at this
point. So we now get bothfor the cost of only what we used
to select our reason, which wasthe seventeenth pick, and as mid second
round pick this year. As faras his impact year one, I doubt

(08:54):
he'll play, but it really doesn'tmatter if he's whether or not he's twenty
years old. You can you know, you have time to see what you
have with him. He's obviously agrech shooters, so if if injuries happen,
I think he's he's fairly plug inplay. And I know defense this
is a little bit suspect, butI think he's fairly fairly flug in play.
He can fill in the role thatyou have a ready Bullock field last

(09:16):
year. I think at the veryworst case scenario, he's not going to
be the worst defender than the DoertyBulock was, and he is probably a
better shooter, although obviously we haveus more simple size of his career compared
to to to Reggy Bulock. SoI think it makes sense for this year,
it makes sense for the future guyyou're going to select the forty four.
Likely he isn't going to play oneof the guys actident. Second on,

(09:39):
I don't even make it to actuallyplaying, you know, regular minutes
in the league. I'd expected Abramto be in the killing this year whenst
injuries haven't or or if they do, he might be called up. And
I think it also makes it excitingfor the Rockets summer leak team. I
think we're I know well to andreach Sheppard in a little bit, but
I think it were We're obviously thoughfacts of this into that's trade, but

(10:00):
I think we're lining up a prettycool roster for you know, the dry
times of basketball when Silmar League comesare on. Yeah. Absolutely, July
twelfth through the twenty seconds, sonot far away at all, and that
will give us something to sort oftide us over until Twining Camp starts in
late September. As far as finalizingthe roster for camp and eventually the regular

(10:22):
season, I'm curious what you thinkabout the implications of adding aj Griffin,
because to me, it makes itmore likely that Jayshon Tate might have played
his last game here now. Idon't know if anything's necessarily going to happen
in the next week. Maybe youconsider it because this is a point in
which a lot of teams are goingto be trying to set up their rosters,
and so if they don't trade forTate now, they might fill that

(10:45):
spot through other means, sign someonein free agency. But to add another
forward to the mix on top ofbringing back Tarry Easton, well, if
Jayshon Tate largely fell out of therotation without Tari and without aj Griffin last
year, now he's entering the finalyear of his contract, and so I
could see a case potentially to tryand move Tate, especially to get a

(11:05):
second round pick or two to replenishsome that you've lost in these deals a
future second run pick. Conversely,though, there is value in having Jay
sharn Tate as an expiring contract aboutseven million dollars, along with Jock Landale
at eight million and Jeff Green atabout ten million. I think Jeff Graid
will stick around because we know howimportant he is as a veteran leader.

(11:26):
I expect all of these guys,by the way, to have their team
options picked up by Saturday's deadline hasn'thappened yet, but that's a formality.
I'm told that the plan is tobring back all of those guys. I
think Jeff grad will definitely stick aroundbecause of the veteran leadership angle and Jack
Landale. I think the Rockets wouldmove him under the right circumstances. But
I do think there's some value inhaving especially since you didn't draft a big

(11:46):
man, in having an insurance policyfor Steven Adams who's coming back from an
injury. Look, because Steven needsa little bit of maintenance early on as
he's getting back into NBA shape.There are worse things than to have a
third capable center, which shack Landalerepresents. So I think he's safe.
But as far as eventually consolidating theroster to fourteen to fifteen guys excluding the
two way candidates, I could seeJay shan Tate being someone who rather than

(12:09):
just keep around and not play atthe end of your bench, Look,
he's a quality rotation player who couldmake sense on a team that has scoring
elsewhere it needs defense. I thinkthere's a good chance that by the start
of the season he could be offloaded. I'm just not sure if it makes
the most sense to do that now, because this is when more teams are
looking to bring in potential upgrade orpotentially wait where there's some risk because some

(12:31):
of the spots, you know,some of the chairs have been taken.
But at the same time, youdo maintain the flexibility financially to use him
in trades the rest of the offseasonas opposed to you know, even if
you theoretically take back at expiring salaryfor Tate, you wouldn't be able to
aggregate that salary I think for sixtydays or whatever it is. So what
do you think as far as theimplications of adding aj to the team and

(12:52):
for Tate in particular, and howyou would handle that? Yeah, I
think. I mean it's no secretthat well I love Cash the person and
out of his personality and how muchhe brings on the court. You know,
as far as us all goes,we're at a point where we have
plenty of lengthy adult tates, notthat lengthy, but switchable defenders and distrusts

(13:13):
are already that can two takes justone more. And he's I mean,
I was gonna say he's twenty six, but he's probably like twenty seven or
twenty eight did this, but he'sbeen here a while, you know,
it's actually three eight. He turnstwenty nine in October. Yeah, so
I think he makes sense as ahuman trade exception if they want to keep

(13:33):
it. But if the roster spotsget tight, it may make sense to
move him a specially if you canget a couple of sec a round of
bits. I think a j Griffins, you know, fits into the what
fifth or sixth wing on the rightway? Crazy age fact, jay Sharan
Tate is actually three months older thanDylan Brooks. You ever, or I
wouldn't guess that based on you.It feels like Dylan's been around in the

(13:56):
NBA for some time and jay Shun'srelatively you but based on the end national
experience, Yeah, Jayshawn's getting upthere, so it's a time just sort
of, you know, maximize theasset. Feels weird to say because you're
looking at probably just getting one ortwo second round picks, But if he's
not gonna play here, you probablyshould have him played somewhere else. Yeah,
for sure. And there's one thingthat I want such on regarding the
trait itself. I think the onlythe only you know, obviously, now

(14:18):
we have confirmation that at forty fourwe would have been able to get Tims
Shed. Obviously that's a long time. We don't even know if the Rockets
like him. It says that thehomer like bias of a view of eight.
Uh. And the other thing Iwanted to mention is to put all
over a little bit more emphasis ofwhat you said. It took some of
this, but I wanted to putit again just to make sure you know
the point gets across. I haveno doubt in my mind that a big

(14:41):
part of the rug is being ableto get a J. Griffin. Here
is what happened with was Moan Garubaand Tight? It was it ty Side
or was it Judge Christopher a yearago? I don't know. I don't
remember you meaning the Garuba deal?Yeah? Is it not both? Yeah?
It was Ti okay so s Joshwas was two Memphis. Yeah,

(15:01):
so if you remember if for peoplewho don't remember, the Rockets back back
at that time, sped a coupleof second round picks to dumb Garuba and
Ti Tight two Atlanta. They hadagreed to that trade in principle when they
thought bro quo because they needed tocreate a space to bring in Broquope and
the eventually, you know, thereporting is that he went back on his
word and that the Rockets were left, you know, hanging, and they

(15:26):
decided that they were not going togo back on the trade. Even there
it didn't make sense anymore. Theyhad, you know, committed to it
with the half of this article throughwith it anyways, and back then Raphelstone
was you know, people were callingfor him to be fired even though it's
kind of ridiculous over the few seconround picks because of you know, poor
astet management and whatever you want tocall it. The truth is the way
the way these you know, smallsalary dumps work is teams are not trying

(15:52):
to maximize the return on the secondround pick forty four and forty or forty
four and and fifty. It's notthat big of a difference. Teams we
will usually call first the GMS thatthey're used to dealing with, and they
trust right this is I think withthe rockets themselves. You can tell we've
just off the top of my head, we've received salary dumps from Brooklyn Sei

(16:15):
kudun Boy. A few years ago, we got from the Thunder Derek Favors,
I'm mistaken. We got now salarydumb from the Hawks in in A
J. Griffin. And what's commonbetween these three deals they were all teams
that seems that seems sending us thesalary where all teams Rockets have been in

(16:36):
deals with beforehand before this, beforethe salary towns happened, that other one
of the rockets most common trick partners. Obviously the seems hard than to Brooklyn,
uh and now the Hawks. Youknow, so obviously there's a trend
that when the salary dumps were theHawks were not calling every team that we
seeing what the best sec round particularthat fred Jie Griffin was, because that's

(16:57):
just way too hard to figure out. And normally that this happens. You
know, this happened obviously today theHawks trying to salary dump him. Obviously
they had to find a team thathad a traded player exception, or they
had a salary that was small enoughfor them to still be under attacks.
You know, it's just much easier. And and with salary dumb. The

(17:18):
other thing that that that comes upis, well, if you call someone
saying you want a salary dumble guy, and that's someone is not someone you
trust. And then and then andthe news gets out that you tried to
salary dump them if you end upnot salary dumb them, not not sorry,
dumbing dumb. That players value isin the girl. Right, everybody
knows you tried. Sorry, You'renot going to get any value from the
fact that a k reference twenty yearsold than the prospect, right. So,

(17:41):
usually teams keep it pretty close tothe pretty close to the best,
And the Rockets were one of theteams that the Hawks TM had dealt with
in the recent in the in thein the recent past, and that certainly
played a role in the Rockets beingone of the teams, not the only
one, probably, but being oneof the teams that the Hawks called first,
and and they were able to geta deal done. So it's just

(18:03):
it's a little bit of like concreteevidence that the entire fostering relationships approach that
Rafael Stone has done so far,and that it's been criticized, He's been
criticized for it every step of theway, actually paying off a little bit.
Then, obviously everything may not turnout to be anyone, but I
think it's pretty it's pretty consensus thatthis was a trade for the Rockets,

(18:26):
and I don't think it happens ifif that deal back then. I'm not
saying that this was intended, youknow that when they made that deal,
that the Rockets were like, oh, everything ever becomes available, you'll call
us first. No, that's whatI'm saying. I'm just saying the number
was near the top of the pile, and Rafael Stone was some of the
Hawks trusted and that's why they werethe first one of the first two teams

(18:48):
that were that we were one ofthe first two teams that were called when
they needed the salary that I thinkthere's an example to be made with the
Steven Adams. Sorry done, butI can also remember recently with the Chris
they might there might have been ohthere is that off there's Christopher yep.
So there's another evidence that teams usuallycall for salary thems first they called the

(19:08):
teams that they delt did recently becausethey there's some level of trust built.
So yeah, I just wanted to, you know, put emphasis on that
because I think that's something that willgo under the ratear for a lot of
people on Uricon Sundays. And alsoI think tilbrin Partita deserves some credit as
well because with this sequence of events, again, it all goes back to

(19:30):
the Kevin Porter Junior trade and whenhe did what he did in that New
York hotel room in September, therewere a lot of people who wanted to
cut bait immediately, and the Rocketswere patient. They waited a month.
Ultimately, as long as he doesn'tplay again in the NBA, that was
the end goal, and they accomplishedthat. So rather than cave for the

(19:52):
sake of a little bit better immediatepr Tilburn Pritita trusted rafel Stone to go
through his process us and buying thattime allowed him to find Oklahoma City for
that deal. You mentioning all thesetrades between the Rockets and the Thunder had
me thinking about the relationship between theFallstone and Sam Presty, And of course
KPJ's contract became the financial vehicle forSteven Adams and now J Griffin. So

(20:18):
kudos to Tilman for taking a stepback there. And also I would say
that the trade earlier this week,We'll get to that later in the pod,
but look deferring the Brooklyn assets intwenty twenty five, and twenty twenty
six for picks from Phoenix that arelater in the decade. Perhaps those end
up being used on the trade marketearlier, but we don't know that the
bottom line is in terms of actualgratification. The quickest route to that would

(20:44):
have been to just simply stay thecourse with the twenty twenty five swap and
move potentially from Okac all the wayto Brooklyn. And yet Tilman Purtita is
willing to be patient. We've seenthat time and time again in this rebuild,
and we've talked about it. ButI also think it speaks well to
how he is letting raffel Stone dohis job, because I don't think that
you should micro manage your general manager. You've got to trust him, and

(21:07):
if you don't trust him, wellmake a change. We've outlined in the
past why we believed in raffel Therehave been arguments to the contrary, but
one thing that I never believed inwas this idea that, well, you
should keep him but have him ona tighter leash. No, that's going
to lead to chaos. You eitherneed to let him implement his vision,
or if you don't trust the vision, then you move on to somebody else,
and you let that guy in hisbasketball operations staff do what they think

(21:33):
is best. Rafel Stone has beengiven full autonomy by Tilman Partita, and
I think we're seeing on a couplelevels this week it paying off. We'll
get to later in the pod themerits of the draft picks swap. But
I just think the fact that theRockets were allowed to do it in the
first place, the fact that theywere able to trade Kevin Porter Junior a
month later rather than release him immediately, I think it speaks well to Tilman's

(21:55):
processes too, right, Yeah,And I think I don't make you if
you noticed in the clip that orCoets post to where they were going with
Sheepherd, someone says something to Idon't have the exact words in front of
me, but she said something tothe extent of, uh oh, these
guys were really excited to get you. Like that's him, you know,
separating himself from the decision making.And he's like, you know, the

(22:18):
guys I trust really like you,so I'm welcoming you. And I think
that's you know, to me,that's the most important. And I've talked
about this earlier in earlier episodes,if not in the earlier episodes of the
Wager lining previous poss that I've made. The one thing I cannot tolerate is
if the management of an NBA teamis poor. I could never be a

(22:40):
fan of the Kings back when theywere poor. I could never be a
fan of the Ornance nowadays it's it'sthe one thing I cannot tolerate. I
can tolerate years of being bad aslong as there's a path and nine times
out of ten and nonor being tooinvolved leads to disaster and honor. Being
cheap leads to the leads to likea cap puts a cap on the ceiling

(23:02):
of a team, no matter howthe k emmets. And when Russell Stone
came in, there were a lotof doubts about Tilman, and I think
throughout, you know, the firstthree years of Ruffleston's reign as GM,
we have seen that Tilman has improvedmassively in two areas, which is he's
been willing to spend money when theteam wasn't good, which you know,

(23:22):
it's not the luxury attack. AndI know a lot of people won't to
see him pay those three attacks beforebefore these they say anything, you can
rebuild a team on a pretty lowbudget. And for the first year the
Rockets, for no reason at allother than to possibly extract value out of
some of these deals, they wereclose to the tax fide as a tanking
team, they were never achieved.They were ever close to the salary floor

(23:44):
in any of the years. Forreference, Oklahoma City had to was both
world the floor for one of theseasons of during which the Rockets were rebuilding,
and you know, Tilman would andyou weren't seeing people saying that their
owner was keep till One, onthe other hand, was willing to pay.
He was willing to you know,I think we paid five million for

(24:04):
a second round pick. At onepoint, we took salary dumps that were
just pure salary dumps for second roundpicks. You know, they bought the
stock ever run pick that was kJMartin. Yeah, they did, and
we took second and why it wasa pure salary dumb that just increased or
or or bayroll in exchange for asecond round big And obviously we see teams

(24:26):
do that all the time nowadays,but there's the if you go team by
team, that's there's teams that haven'tdone that in a while, and that's
that's a hint that the the overseap. So I think Kodos still more
for being hands off throughout this entireprocess, not you know, rushing things,
and and for you know, upto this point kind of dismissing dismissing

(24:47):
some of the some of the critiquesof him being t well, see if
he based attacks when it comes downto it. But so far, so
good. All right, let's transitionto the draft and read Shepherd. You
mentioned a couple of minutes ago.We've talked about Hebaton. Really ever since
the Rockets landed the number three pick, he was a top candidate, and
ultimately the process got to where Ithink most of us expected it to.

(25:11):
It was a little bit curious asfar as the road that got there.
It felt like there were even moretrade rumors this year. There were times
when it felt like there was nomentumfor Donovan Klingen. After the draft,
rafel Stone actually said the Rockets wereon reed the entire time, and if
he wasn't on the board, theywould have traded down or out in all
likelihood. Not sure how much ofthat is true and how much is the

(25:33):
standard The GM after drafting and Ialways says, oh, we got our
guy. That's pretty standard. Butregardless, this reached the conclusion that I
think most Rockets fans expected it to, but the process to get there was
a little different, and I thinkit should be somewhat reassuring because in a
draft where there was no consensus BPAin terms of who's on the board at

(25:55):
three, I think we both agreedthat Reid, because of his shooting fit
in more roster constructs, it waseasier to see a path in terms of
developing the other aspects of his gameas a point guard, as a defender,
can he create his own shot andnot just be a floor spacer.
Time will tell the Rockets will startworking with him at Summer League, but

(26:15):
at a bare minimum, this issomeone who should be a capable rotation player
on a sub mL contract and there'svalue there. But I also think the
process the Rockets use Houston got alot of criticism the last two years for
being sort of locked in on PowloBenkiro, who they didn't get in twenty
twenty two at Aman Thompson, whothey did in twenty twenty three. But

(26:37):
what I also think should have beennoted was by some people it was forgotten
by others, was that there wasa clear tear drop. So in terms
of keeping the pathways open to atrade, if someone overwhelmed you from a
value perspective, then look, Polowwas going to be the next guy if
Jabari and who wasn't chet Holmgren wentin the top two. As it turned

(26:57):
out, Jabari was the one thatwas left, but there was a clear
top three. Last year, therewas a clear top Foard. I remember
saying as soon as the Rockets gotfourth in the lottery, you know,
we were both a little depressed inthat episode because it was the Spurs getting
wimby, But I just wanted topfour because it felt like there was something
of a tear drop. So whilethe Rockets got some criticism for zoning in

(27:18):
on their guy in the pre draftprocess, in reality that was the smartest
way to maximize it. You know, if you wanted to trade the pick,
then leaking interest in the guy whowas the clear best player available,
best asset available, is the bestway to potentially maximize value. As opposed
to this year, it was alittle more mixed. I think Reid was

(27:40):
the best fit for the Rockets situation, and I think it's an appropriate tiebreaker
if multiple guys are close. Butthere were other legitimate candidates as well,
and so I think because the Rockets, you know, kept things somewhat mysterious,
then they got a few more offers, none were tempting enough to do
a deal, and I think thedeal they did with Brooklyn the night before,
turning two first rout assets into fourmade it even less likely for the

(28:04):
Rockets to trade down for quantity's sake. But I just think the process was
sound. They drafted the guy whomade the most sense, and I'm not
even sure how much of it isthat they changed in the last couple of
years. I think it's just thesituation. The landscape of the draft was
different, and the Rockets played itthe way that made the most sense.
And then at the end of theday, none of the trade offers were

(28:25):
good enough, especially for a teamthat's already pretty deep, that already has
a fairly deep war chest of futureassets as well, to justify moving off
a guy who was just a prettyideal fit at least at a rotation level
and should give you some legitimate minutesthis year. So I think we both
like Reached Shepherd the player. We'vecovered that before, and then in terms
of the process, having it moremysterious along the way, even if it

(28:48):
made for she we probably made forbetter pods because we had more scenarios to
go through. But I just thinkthe Rockets played this very well, and
ultimately it's hard to give for me, at least to give this trapped anything
other the to day, I thinkit addresses in need. I don't see
anything they clearly missed, so I'mpretty happy with it. Empower. What
were your thoughts on Reached Shepherd night, Yeah, I thought I thought it

(29:10):
was really interesting that Rafel said thathe was number one on their board and
that if he had not been availablethat they were going to trade the bit.
Not because teams always say something willlike that, right, But I
actually think that this is true,and I think it linds up with the
way the entire rumor the rumor millworked leading up to the draft, because

(29:30):
well, it makes sense that youwould. I mean, I called this,
I just I gotta you know,it stood my own board, right,
that's to say, right, thatwas kind of kind of work with
me. I'm I'm not native.I called it like a week in advance,
that it will make all of thesense in the world for the wrong
week to weak that they were,that they wanted cling and there were there

(29:52):
were there were rumors out there thatthe Hawks wanted clinging. There are rumors
out there that the Spurts wanted clinging, that the Crisis wanted clean them,
that that the places are not cleaning, the getting him. If everybody wants
this one guy and you're weak thatshe want him, and you make it
to look realistic after Rockets did Imean it look realistic that they were better,
that the trant between cared the clingingwas a difficult one. But does

(30:17):
that make other teams too? Ifyou want cling and cleaning up to four
no longer does anything for you.If you want clean and and you're the
Hawks and you don't want to takethem one, because who will take them
one? You can trade back furtherthan three. And so if the Rockets
were interested in alex Aar, theywould basically be the only team that the
Hawks who trade with it, orthe Wizards or the Wizards. Yeah,

(30:38):
so it will make all of sensein the world to week that were we
were interested in him, especially ifyou're coming if you're approaching the draft nber.
But the perspective of we want thisone guy, and if we're not
getting this one guy, you wantto get as many trade office as possible.
And it also makes it also tiesinto the room the rumor that was

(30:59):
out there that the rucks going towait until they were on the clock to
decide if they were going to tradea pick or not. If you're going
to do that, you don't wantto have a lot of You don't want
to have to do a lot ofwork in those five minutes that you're on
the clock. You want to haveall of the offers on your table right
and the end probably have a rankingof them and seeing which ones you like
the best. So so it workslike like a logical decision. If reach

(31:22):
epherd's there, you'd say, ifyour sheepherd's up there, you have a
ranking of traits that you can justquickly call teams see if they're still standing.
I think it made all of thesusse in the world. That's why
I boll believe that reach Epherd wasn'tthe idea wanted. And you know,
for the thirty year in a row, it's pretty much consensus around draft Twitter
and the draft experts that the Rocketsmade, you know, they regard to

(31:45):
steel Or being the best pick thatthey could multiple guys. I think if
only had to be Chapherd number one, I think if it was Wasserman that
also had to be Shepherd at numberone, I'm gonna had them one.
I think Kevin is it Kevin Belton. I forget the first name, but
Kevin felt nelx guy DESPN he hadhe had him number one as well.

(32:07):
So it just makes all this sumein the world. It's you know,
it's probably both p p A andthe best fit it gets. Obviously,
you know, considered it to bethe best player you got both in one.
And I'm just excited to see howhe plays in summer league and see
how he develops on that thretend fleet. I wont that if you'll play me

(32:28):
in zier one, if you'll goto the Tea league for a while,
I'm excited to watch him in sommerleague. And I have to mention because
you know, I can't give stillyserious analysis for too long. I gotta
slip at tok and and everyone's ina while. The fact that his first
name is isay, Yeah, andthat his initials are I R S is
just hilarious and I can I cannow wait for what Craig Ackerman's working and

(32:52):
I'm sure she's working on something,because that's just so there's just so many
ways that you can have clever commentaryor a guy who's lives irs did and
I'm not I don't know, it'ssomething dumb to be excited over. When
we're talking about a draft prospect.We can take ourselves too seriously. And
I'm excited to see what happens ifhe hits a Big three or something like

(33:15):
that. I'm excited to see thememes because his Draft Nights suit and his
relatively small size and a little undersix two, he looks like he could
be an accountant. I saw allthese jokes that if he doesn't work out
as a player, the Rockets canadded to their accounting team, which,
of course, you know, undersells fact that even a six or two
athlete, which is below average inthe NBA, is still pretty damn tall

(33:36):
given the general population, So it'sall relative to the guys. He's a
route, but yeah, he justhas a certain sort of wholesome look to
him that I think will make forquality, mean content on top of his
basketball game, which obviously is theprimary draw here. And I just think
beyond all the good things of ReaedShepherd the basketball prospect, which if you
want more x's and o's, checkout or archive to talk about him,

(33:59):
play with Brian Kolebrosky, Dave Artisty, Nathan Krubel are great guests over the
last month to month and a half. Read Shepherd was really at the forefront
of this process the entire time,so we've talked about him plenty. But
I also think now that we're atthe end of this process and celebrating Reed
Shepherd the Houston Rocket, I alsothought it spoke really well to the culture

(34:20):
that Rafelstone and may Udoka have createdthat Jalen Green was actually in New York
at the draft and was there towelcome him to the team. Because while
I don't know that this will happengame one, it may take half a
year, it may take until yeartwo, year three, but there is
going to come a point in whichthere may be a temptation to close occasional
games with Reed Shepherd over Jalen Green. Those games last year where it felt

(34:45):
like I may didn't want to turnto Jalen if he didn't have it going,
because it felt like he was justgoing to be too high usage.
If he wasn't making shots, ifhe was a little bit tentative, then
you want to dial up the usageeven more. For guys like Fred van
Fleet and all pri and Shin Goo, you want more flores facing. So
we saw at times Tarry Eason,when he was healthy, as close to

(35:06):
healthy as he was a year ago, closing in place of Jalen Green.
Look, there's absolutely a world whereReed Shepherd, with his superior shooting and
not having usage that's quite as high, could be a candidate to close games
instead of Jalen Green. I hopethat doesn't happen a lot, because we
all want Jalen in your four totake that next step. But until he
does it, it's an open question. And so I think Jalen being there

(35:29):
as a leader of the team,welcoming someone that at least to a small
extent, could threaten him for minutes. I mean that immediately, but within
a year or two it's certainly plausible. I think long term there's a little
bit of overlap there. I justthink it speaks well to Jalen getting more
comfortable in his own skin, andI think that's a good sign because I
think that's honestly one of the biggesttransitions for Jalen. He's just had so

(35:52):
much on and off the court,just changes constantly over his first three NBA
seasons. It just feels like,especially down the stretch of last season,
he got more comfortable with who heis. You can insert a dad joke
there if you want, but thebottom line, it just seems like we're
seeing Jalen Green turn over a newleaf. He just seems a lot more

(36:12):
confident just as a person, asa player, and I think that may
bring even more benefits starting next seasonbecause I do think some of the times
we've seen him get a little indecisive, a little passive. I think it
can relate to all these changes thathave happened on and off the court,
with everything in the organization around himbeing you know, turned over over his
first two NBA seasons, and nowgetting this consistency being entrusted in a leadership

(36:37):
role, it just feels like thathe's sort of grabbing the bull by the
horns and hopefully that brings better resultsfor him on the court, so I
thought that was a good sign.It also made for good memes when Jalen
with the shades posed with Reid rightafter being drafted, right, yeah,
man, I was. I waswondering what his first was first swords.
I'm guessing I've had something to dowith the haircuts. I don't know,

(37:00):
and but at the same time,I know the react that's terrible. At
the same time, if he popsoff with it and he because there's a
star, I wonder if people willstart, you know, if that will
become a trend in Houston like thatthere's the terrible hair did. I mean,
I've seen photos of people rocking stylesclose to too came started, and

(37:20):
I wonder if that would happen again. The other thing that I would that
I wanted to mention about Jaialen isI wonder if the Rockets asked him to
be there or if he decided tobe there. I think KEM W.
Moore was that as well. Ithink it's the latter because raphel Stone was
asked about it at the post draftproster and he mentioned that he didn't actually
know until that day that Jailen wasgoing to be there. Okay, interesting,

(37:40):
So I mean, good on Jalenfor being that he knew he had
a top pick. I think therewill definitely be some competition between the two,
but it's also possible that they playtogether. I know it will be
an undersized backcourd, but if killit becomes what we think he can become,
and then re Chepperd becomes I don'tknow, in nineteen percent percent that
outcoming becomes like a Steve Nash typeof guy, they can definitely play together

(38:04):
and play off each other. Andif if eventually we have a world where
we have to make a decision betweenthe two, that's probably because things are
going right and both of them arepanning out, so that would that would
be a good problem to have.But yeah, other than that, I
think Killen being there is is definitelya positive and hopefully I think I mean,
I think in every single one ofthe drafts, Jalen was not a

(38:28):
recruiter, but one like one ofthe guys that reached out at least I
remember with Paul Vonkero, he definitelywas so with oh No, with KPJ
was the opposite. If he hada KPJ had a relationship with them,
but regardless, it's you know,and with you in the sase that Jalen
people should probably consider last year Jalenis feared too, not that not his

(38:51):
rookie year, right, because thatwould be giving him part too big a
volt would probably give because of thelast year easier too. And if you
do that, I think I couldstill project him to become what we think
he can become, because he wasafterly coming into his own tend of season
and we saw what a team ledby Jayalen Green can do if he is
playing at the level, but thathe was playing so long term. You

(39:14):
know, I don't think I thinkif you have to make that choice,
it's instead of brought in to yep. All right, So let's transition to
a subject that we may have somedisagreements on, because I feel like to
this point it may have been alittle bit of a boring pod because we
both think that the aj Griffin tradeand the Reed Shepherd drafting at number three
are a level moves. There's notmuch negative to say. It makes sense

(39:37):
on a number of levels. Kudosto rafel Stone for his processes, Kudos
to Tilbyn per Tita. Everything's funand great. The one thing that I
know we disagree at least a littlebit on is the trade the Rockets made
Tuesday night, sending the twenty twentyfive and twenty twenty six first round assets
back to the Brooklyn Nets in exchangefor four future assets one in twenty twenty

(39:59):
five in twenty twenty seven, twoin twenty twenty nine, three to four
unprotected from the Phoenix Suns to othertwenty twenty nine unprotected from the Dallas Mavericks.
Hopefully by then Luca will have movedon to another team. Time will
tell. At least Kyrie by thatpoint should be on the downhill slide if
he's in the league at all,And if he is in the league,
who knows. If he's still inDallas. We know how much instability there

(40:19):
is there, so it's always goodto have a greater quantity of assets.
And I think in the trade thatwas connected to it, which was Brooklyn
sending mkal Bridges to the Knicks,Brooklyn was unwilling to trade mckill bridges unless
they got their picks back, andwe've covered that a lot in the past,
because they didn't want to be badwhen they wouldn't reap the rewards of
being bad when their picks went tothe Rockets. So I know someone point

(40:44):
out and say, well, didn'tRockets just get the number three pick?
Yeah, but the Nets for thirtytwo and fifty they had the number nine
odd slot. They were not likeworst team in the league bad, which
is what they're going to try tobe now without mckalil bridges. They are
going to try to bottom out forCooper flag. And so I know some
people have said, well, couldthe Rockets have gotten even more because there's
so much value to the Nets andthat they literally cannot rebuild without your help,

(41:08):
and I understand. I think thereis another side to consider, which
is the Nets can say, look, you got the number three pick this
year because you were really lucky,and if we just stay the course and
we use that text permit level exception, the East is that good. We
can continue winning thirty to thirty fivegames being on a slightly lower class mediocrity

(41:29):
treadmill and keep you from getting anypremium assets unless you get really lucky in
the lottery a second time, whichis obviously unlikely. Rockets had only a
twenty percent chance this year to jumpinto the top four, So I think
the Rockets aired on the side ofquantity by saying, you know what,
We'll take these Phoenix assets and seewhat happens. Ultimately, I think the

(41:52):
Rockets are trying to position themselves fora trade, and the way I think
they look at it is that sinceit doesn't look like the big deal is
going to be available this off seasonthan by twenty twenty five twenty twenty six,
those Phoenix picks are more likely tobe worthwhile assets on the trade market

(42:13):
than whoever they would likely draft intwenty twenty five, because unless the guy
you draft is truly a top shelfguy. We've talked about it in the
past. It's the new cards foran off the lot analogy. Those guys
tend to lose their value a lotimmediately unless you were able to play them
immediately, and that's tough for aRockets team that already has so many young
guys. So pushing the assets furtherinto the future getting a greater quantity of

(42:37):
assets, which we saw Michail Bridgessomehow going for five first rount picks.
I guess the Nets weren't lying.Kudos to them for that. I was
wrong. They were right on thataspect of it, But I think it's
defensible what they did, even ifit feels underwhelming, because I know some
people say the Rockets had the netsover a barrel. Why couldn't they have
gotten a return to the extent thatOklahoma City did and the Paul George trade

(42:58):
five years ago. I've heard allthe r arguments. I guess what I
keep coming back to more than anything. Powllo and we talked about this on
our episode with Brian Kalbrowski about amonth ago, and Brian mentioned that he
would do almost anything to get toshort the Phoenix Suns because of how uncertain
that outlook is. Kevin Durant turnsthirty six years old this summer. I

(43:21):
just don't really think that there wasthat much from the Rockets of a last
minute negotiation, and so that's whyI'm a little surprised to see the fixation
over well, could they should theyhave negotiated harder? Was this the right
move? When Jonathan Fagan if theHouston Chronicle published this exact scenario in early

(43:44):
May, it was clear that theRockets valued the additional picks going out in
further years, even if there wastheoretically a little more upside in twenty twenty
five and twenty twenty six, whichare strong draft classes, is a little
more certainty. I shouldn't say moreupside, because it's entirely possible, but
Phoenix is dreadful by the back end. It's just more certainty because Brooklyn's outlook

(44:07):
in the very short term. Butthe Rockets wanted a greater quantity and they
wanted to push it out in thefuture, and so it's one of those
things. We argued it in theBrian Kolbrowski pod, and I think it's
a situation where reasonable people can disagree. But for me, I'm surprised to
see how many people were surprised.To me, it was already baked in

(44:28):
that this was what the Rockets wantedto do. It made more sense with
their timetable, and it was justa matter of when or if Brooklyn decided,
hey, we're willing to trade mkilBridges and we're willing to actually pivot
to a rebuild. And the timewas this week, evidently, and so
that pushed the deal to the finishline. At least the Rockets were able

(44:49):
to keep the twenty twenty four pick, which became reed Shepherd and the twenty
twenty seven swap. When Jonathan wroteabout it six weeks ago, it was
a little vague, sounded like itcould have been, you know, trading
all the Brooklyn picks for or allthe Phoenix picks. Thankfully it was not.
That Rockets did trade two for fourand they kept the twenty twenty four
and the twenty twenty seven swap shouldactually be more valuable now, so we're
only talking about twenty twenty five andtwenty twenty six and then the final tipping

(45:13):
point for me, even if thebest case scenario happens and you somehow get
Cooper Flag or Boozer or whoever itmay be, a nineteen or twenty year
old is not going to be conduciveto winning at a high level right away.
You're going to have to give himtwo or three years to develop.
And I don't think the Rockets,with all their young guys, with what

(45:36):
they've been trying to build for years, want to be patient. I think
it was always going to be atrade scenario, no matter what, be
it now or with assets in thefuture. And when you look at the
lottery odds and how unlikely it isto get a guy like flag or boozer
that really moves the needle in atrade asset perspective. Immediately you're looking at

(45:59):
what fifteen percent and odds even ifthey're the worst team, and that's probably
a stretch because with mkil Bridges,if they try to Mediocrity treadmill, it's
probably what ten percent something like that. I just think that they viewed.
I think it's a combination of youknow, the future year certainly, but
also the young talent that's already onthe roster. The Rockets already have plenty

(46:21):
of upside, and so I thinkwe've seen them in recent decisions be a
little more safe. Reach Shepherd issomeone who mentioned roster configurations. He fits
in so many he's safe, it'stough to see him totally busting. And
then I think you're seeing the samething with this, which is that by
getting the greater quantity, by pushingit out in the future, you're more
likely to at least have pretty goodtrade assets out of it, as opposed

(46:45):
to you know, if Brooklyn mediocritytread bills and they're at pick nine or
pick ten, then you stayed thecourse that asset is not going to be
that good at all this at leastgives you a higher floor, and so
I think the Rockets are thinking morein terms of floor of these days,
given the upside of the young core. I understand the arguments against it.
They're valid. It's just I don'tknow. For me, I'm just surprised

(47:07):
to see the consternation because it's it'sa scenario that it felt like as soon
as Shout out Than wrote that article, it was pretty clear this was what
the Rockets wanted to do. Theball was in Brooklyn's court. This was
the weak Brooklyn schose to act.And so here we are. What are
your thoughts as far as the process, the negotiation, how we got here,
and ultimately where the Rockets are froman asset perspective. Yeah, listen,

(47:29):
I don't have strong feelings about this, and it's been one of the
long one of the treads that stakeit the longest for me to process.
But it's only since I've been anNBA fan I understand the value of pushing
the picks further into the future.I understand that the Rocuts have been bitten
by the fact that they had toomany picks too soon and lost leverage trying

(47:50):
to trade out of drafts in thepast, Jush Christopher not just Christopher Usman
Garuba that I Washington can wit moreknow because obviously they the guy, they
an insane guy fell But if theywanted enough ball and I'll guess that Rockers
be we will would be looking straightout of that second picking three drugs as

(48:10):
well. So I understand them tryingto be cautious about that and not being
stuck in that position of lower leveragebecause of it. I understand how valuable
the some specks will be. Iunderstand that they're in cap hell. I
also think that they have Kevin Durant, and and and and Devin Booker.

(48:31):
And although the out of the BradleyPeel deal was a catastrophe, you know,
they're still, you know, anincredibly talented team. And it's they're
you know, it's kind of likerolling back that tign They're at the stage
the Nets were after James Harden askedthat in my opinion, and the nets

(48:53):
eventually fell apart soon enough, andwe got pick three out of it,
and the value of the picks inBeasts of the further years. And now
we just we restarted the side andwe're hoping that it happens the same thing
happens with the Suns as soon aspossible. We don't know if it will,
we don't know how long it willtake, but eventually hopefully it doos

(49:15):
So I can see the upside.I can see the conveniency of the picks
being further out. I just thinkthat the Nets picks in twenty twenty six
were more of a short thing.And I think we know for fact that
twenty twenty five and twenty twenty sixare insanely stacked drafts. And we don't
know what the twenty twenty seven throughtwenty twenty nine drafts will be. Wait,

(49:38):
it's twenty thirty one, right,the last one we get. Yeah,
twenty thirty or twenty thirty one isthe last year the Rockets have their
pick eligible to be traded. Buttwenty twenty nine is the last in this
deal. Okay, okay, allright, So we don't if those strusts
will be as good as this one. And I believe that a copper flex

(50:00):
going to be a generational talent.I think Booster will be close to it,
if not, if not actually bea generational talent. There's there's debumps
and there's there's other prospects that protectto be really really good. And think
we're about to head into another cycleof the talent Green into follow and Carol
into when Baniyama drafts. Where Ithink it will be, you know,

(50:22):
a couple of years of really gooddrafts, and I don't know what the
future, what the future holds beyondthat, And so i'm if you think
that there's generational talent coming, Yes, it's a ten percent chance at the
best, it's what near it's afourteen percent chance at best, But we
know how valuable it was to havea fourteen percent chance at WENB for example,

(50:45):
and MB is obviously better than theThere are all those. But if
you have an opportunity to have achance at generational talent, you should probably
take it because there's very few teamsthat will get that opportunity while the while
competing. And I do understand andthat if you drafted one of those guys,
they'll take a couple of years toget up to speed. I actually

(51:05):
think Cooper five wouldn't Boozer probably,But I think those are you know,
the Rockets have a lot of reallygood end prospects. We still don't know
if they have a true superstar rightsuns training that way, Kevin has potential,
has potential coming with more has potential. Tari Jabari. Probably we know
that there would be real, reallygood role players, but there's no clear

(51:29):
number one guy that you you know, Okay, we got this guy,
we got or wenbr Glamorant or whateverit is, when we're going to build
around them. And I think thosetwo guys are going to be that from
the moment they step into the league. And usually if you have a chance
to get one of those guys asearly age, you shouldn't forfeit that chance.
That being said, I do understandthe value that comes from postponing the

(51:50):
picks, and I do understand thatall of this potential, as far as
if we're getting those guys, couldbasically be nothing. And I don't understand
the reasoning that you point out.And I think it's very fair that that
the Rockets currently have a young corewith a lot of upside already. And
so at some point, if youif if you if all your investments are

(52:10):
are you know, will floor highceiling you you're probably better off, you
know, managing some of the riskand betting on assets that are not probably
not as risky since they're furthered outin the future in the sunspects, and
obviously if the quantity is more obviouslythere's less risk involved as well. So
I understand all of that. Idon't think it was a bad deal.

(52:32):
I don't think it was an insanedeal. I think was a fair deal
where the Nets, the team thatgot the bit, that got the the
biks back, didn't a plus plusjob of getting out of the situation they
were in. And so that makesme think that the Rockets, knowing that's
what the NET said lined up andknowing how big the potential was for the

(52:53):
Nets, could have probably squeezed outbetter value with if that value was an
extra for something, if one ofthe ones from other teams like Philly twenty
twenty eight or something like that,whether you know something that would make me
feel more confident that this is awin rather than it will look like a
really even trade, because yes,said it was a thrifteenth trade, but

(53:14):
there's a clear, really big winner, and the Rockets have leveraged over that
team, so it would make sensethat the Ruggets could have pushed harder.
We'll never know maybe the Nets werewilling to do a trade at a different
price point. I think that wouldbe questionable, because you know, this
is a pretty awesome way out forthem. But hey, I guess looking
at the more positive side, theydid hold on to the twenty twenty seven

(53:37):
big and it's I think it willbe really tough for the Nets to turtrund
in two years and not provide orwith another lottery pick in twenty twenty seven.
So I think it's will so young. Yeah, we'll probably still get
a fairly good rot turn out ofthat. And you should trace it back
to the James Harden deal to JamesHarden hardened deal has now gotten a star.

(54:00):
Eason reached Shepherd. What three firstsor two firsts and three swaps?
You know, it's kind of resetthe timeline a little bit by adding the
extra year, the extra pick andthe extra and the extra swap, and
so we say, keep doing thisover and over again. Eventually James Harden
is going to have the best returnon not trade that's ever been. Yeah,

(54:20):
I was liking about that early week. By the way, I don't
think anyone would trade Tory Easton andread Shepherd even a contender for James Harden
today just based on those two guys, and that's more we consider everything else.
Yeah, So overall, I thinktargets are still in a very good
position. And perhaps it's also abit of you know, you want the

(54:46):
immediate satisfaction on on you know thatwe have the potentile to get a great
pick next year, and a lotof people were really looking forward to that,
and now that has been moved intothe future, and it's probably the
more responsible decisions to make. Asyou said, it's lower risk, and
I agree. But I said beforeearlier in the off season that to me,

(55:07):
trading twenty twenty five, the twentytwenty five swap will have to be
in a massive deal, and tome that there wasn't quite massive enough for
me to feel one hundred percent confidentthat it was a good deal. But
we'll see, and I already knowthat I'll get triggered in a year because
the nets are going to actually thankthis time and they may look into Pick
one as for them, say,oh, they're orchestrated with one, ignoring

(55:29):
the fact that if they had metalbridges they would be better, that the
Hearts wouldn't be as good I alreadyknow that's going to happen, but I
think in due time, I thinkthe only will now only be able to
truly tell the result of the straitonce those Stenix picks come in. And
speaking of I think this signals alot of clob security for Roflstone. Yeah,

(55:51):
one of many signals of that.As we said earlier in the pod,
I would respond to what you saidjust by noting and underscoring how unprecedented
this situation is. I think,you know, it's easy for us,
and that's what sort of irks mea little bit the last couple of days
seeing some of the reaction. Well, we could have gotten more. Well,
who's to say they didn't try.I mean it's easy if this is

(56:15):
like a star trade. This iswhy people get so upset when Rudy Gobert
goes for four picks and now somehowMichale Bridges went for five, because it's
a precedent. As Brian Windworth saidthis week, he's been covering the league
twenty two years and he's never seena deal like this. It's tough to
exactly project how much value there shouldbe returning because just as the Rockets have

(56:35):
them over a barrel. The NETScan respond and say, look, we
had a lot of things go wrongthis year, and we were still just
three games out of the playing tournamentin the East and had the number nine
oddslot, So there's some leverage thatwe can push back with as well.
And these Phoenix picks, you know, I pointed out today, I've been
graded out independently by you know,some of the people that have ranked future

(56:58):
picks. I know Sam Quin ofCBS have ranked them near the top of
the entire league. In fact,I makey had when he ranked the traded
assets last summer, had the twentytwenty nine Suns pick is the most valuable
in the entire league. In fact, when Jonathan Fagan wrote that story a
month ago, the New York Timesor the New York Post excuse me,
their Nets beat writer mocked the Rockets, calling it trickery and said the NETS

(57:19):
had no interest, arguing that theSuns picks because of and we should note
that you know, the Suns areit does feel similar to the Nets a
few years ago, but the Sunsare a far smaller market. They also
have a way older star in KevinDurant, so there are some mitigating circumstances,
even if it's similar in terms ofexpensive team, older stars, smaller

(57:39):
market, and a CBA that hasmore team building restrictions for the expensive team.
So it's not quite an apples toapples, But I think the bigger
takeaway, you know, I understandthe wondering what if? But I just
can't help them wonder, especially withsome of the asset management criticism the last
year. If the Rockets have gottenfive assets instead of four, are the
same people saying, well, weshould have gotten six. If they get

(58:00):
in six asset, well should wehave gotten seven? I just think it's
such an unprecedented situation, and unlikea typical trade where you can say,
look, so and so went forfour first run picks and three swaps or
whatever it may be, why didour guy get this? Because there's leverage
in both directions and there's no previouscase study, I'm more inclined to give
the benefit of the doubt. Iunderstand the arguments, and there's risk.

(58:22):
If there wasn't risk, both sideswouldn't do the trade if it was as
easy as well, we're just goingto do what's good for us with no
downside. Well, what's the upsideto the other team. Of course,
there's risk. That's always the waythis works. So it's the situation where
I understand the argument against. Iunderstand the trepidation. I'm just not willing

(58:43):
to go as far as some haveon social media and say, well,
the Rockets clearly didn't negotiate as hardas they should have, because this is
a pretty rare situation. The otherthings that I would point out, so
you know, if the Nets hadstayed the course, and you can't argue
that whatever the pick inside, ifthe Nets get cooper flagged, now again,
that's not the product the Nets wouldhave put on the floor anything close

(59:05):
to it. Had they not hadcontrol of their pick, they would have
kept Michal Bridges, probably would havespent the non taxpayer mid level exception,
and you would have ended up.You know, I'm looking at the draft
odds slot now to get in thetop two next year, the number six
odd slot has eighteen percent, thenumber ten odd slot has six percent.
So I'd say somewhere in that rageshould get into the top two picks.
Not nothing, but not great.The other thing I would say to your

(59:28):
argument Powlow about the guys at thetop of the twenty twenty five class being
so transformative to your outlook. TheRockets have top ten protection on their swap
ode to Oklahoma City, So ifthings go sideways next year, if there's
a lot of injuries, and keepin mind how loaded the Western Conference is.
As good as the Rockets were thisyear, they were in the twelve

(59:49):
spot, and for a lot ofthe year they were in the nine or
ten spot, in which they wouldhave kept their pick. And if if
they're in the lottery at all,then you'll have the chance add a top
more pick, in which case thetop ten protection would kick in, the
protection on the actual pick, notthe odds slot. What I would say
is that if there are some downsidescenarios for the Rockets, if it doesn't

(01:00:12):
look like Jalen is taking that nextstep, or there's an injury that reduces
his or someone else's long term outlook, then the Rockets do have an
internal pathway still left. It's nota pleasant pathway, because we all want
the Rockets to play good basketball nextseason, but if some of the worst
case scenarios pan out, it's worthremembering that the Rockets do have top ten
protection on their own pick next year, So it's not literally zero we talk

(01:00:36):
about twenty twenty five. It's adesirable thing to bring up, but it
is there a couple of other smallthings that I want to point out,
Paolo, and I'll let you getthe last word in after that. So
we've talked plenty in the past abouthow future picks, and that's why the
Rockets are pushing them out have moreliquidity on the trade market. One thing
to keep in mind, I'm sureover the last month or so the Rockets

(01:01:00):
have been able to offer these Brooklynpicks. They've been able to explore the
market. We know they looked into Donovan Mitchell that it seems he's staying
in Cleveland. They kicked the tireson Paul George. As we talked about
earlier this week. The Rockets diddo some digging earlier this season at the
trade deadline. Now in the pastmonth, as they've entered the off season,

(01:01:22):
it's just the right guy isn't onthe market now, and so because
the deal isn't there in twenty twentyfour, then they're already thinking ahead and
saying, hey, rather than riskthis asset declining, we're going to kick
this into the future, so wehave a longer window. I think that's
important to keep in mind because someof the value of the twenty twenty five
and twenty twenty six swaps has beenrealized, and that the Rockets have been

(01:01:45):
able to canvass the market with thosepicks over the last month. In fact,
I'm sure they have. It's justthe right guy isn't available now,
and so that does decrease the valuea little bit. Now, maybe the
situation changes by the trade deadline.There could be a hit there, But
I would just say that it's notlike you haven't been able to use them
at all. No, I'm surethe Rockets have used them. They've explored.
It's just the right guy isn't availablenow, which is why they're waiting

(01:02:07):
the future a little more heavily.The final point that I would throw in
in defense of the deal is thatat a root level, what this shows,
and we've argued it in the past, and it took a while for
the Nets to concede this point,but eventually they did. When you own
another team's future drafts to the extentthat the Rockets did the Nets and now

(01:02:27):
the Rockets did the Suns, thosepicks are disproportionately valuable to the original team,
because if they don't have those picks, there's no incentive to rebuild.
You can't get better, and soyou're on a permanent mediocrity treadmill as soon
as your superstars decline or they askout, because there's just no way to
get Young's talent at a high levelunless you do something crazy about drafting Nikola

(01:02:51):
Jokich in the second round, somethingjust completely off the radar like that.
And so the Nets trading their bestplayer, Mikale Bridges to get back control
of the picks. Again, thesedeals were connected, shows you how valuable
that type of control is. Theproblem for the Rockets was that while they
in a perfect world, could haveleveraged the picks to get something from Brooklyn,

(01:03:14):
that type of win now piece,as we've covered in the past,
McHale Bridges was not enough to movethe needle for the Rockets to where it
was worth doing that. In Phoenix, there is a player in Devin Booker,
who, by the way, happensto play the same position as your
most valuable prospect Jalen Green at shootingguard. Devin Brooker is just twenty seven
years old in a year or two, if Kevin Durant ask out, or

(01:03:36):
if he's aging out of the leagueand the Sons who didn't win a single
playoff game this season and they continueto get worse. It's a loaded Western
conference. If Booker decides to askout, you having the picks of that
team, that is a very uniquespot from a value perspective, and I

(01:03:57):
think the Rockets weren't able to fullytake advantage of that with Brooklyn because Brooklyn
did not have a player at thispoint in time that was valuable enough to
be worth it. Phoenix does,and so I think that's a small part
of the calculus as well. Idon't think that's plan A. I mean
Plan A for the Rockets is theyoung core Jalen LP they take the next
steps internally, But Plan B ifthat doesn't work out, you want to

(01:04:19):
be able to make a big trade, putting yourself in position to have that
tyler of leverage over a player whodoes have the type of star upside you're
looking for that does meet the criteria. I think there's an intangible benefit to
that. Again, it's not PlanA, It's not something the Rockets are

(01:04:40):
expecting until the twenty twenty five offseasonat the earliest, might not even be
until twenty twenty six. But Ijust think that's a little thing that could
tip the scales, the fact thatPhoenix has the type of player that actually
could make sense for you in away that Brooklyn did not. Does that
move you in any way? Powlo, Yeah, it does. That was
actually the point that I was goingto make to close it out. I
think it's a massive deal that it'sseven Booker. It's a guy that has

(01:05:02):
as young as he is, he'stwenty seven, that has NBA Finals experience
that has shown in the playoffs thathe can be a go to guy that
can play on the ball and offthe ball. He's not the helio centric
guy, although he has learned tobe more of a you know, combo
card type in the most recent seasons. You know, after Chris Paul got
hurt and he was obviously had tobecome that type of player. In two

(01:05:25):
years of the twenty nine KD willbe older, the son's new ownership boost
will eventually run out. Is youknow, Matt Ispia will eventually understand that
you can't just buy your way tothe championship anymore. In the NBA,
and see they get that have afew rules like the Warriors did, and
even less now because of the newCBA. In a couple of years,

(01:05:46):
if it, they'll probably be dyingdown and they'll probably and they'll probably be
wishing that they didn't spend all oftheir assets on a team that's not going
to get close to the championship.And when that happens, the office will
be in a prime position to tradefor a guy like Booker, who you
know, it's basically perfect if ifKillen Green does not you know, become
we think he can become. It'sa pretty no, it's a pretty easy

(01:06:11):
one for one swat. She fitswell with him and Thompson, you know,
it's it's just there's few players believethat I would rather have than that
in Bookert right now. And asyou said, in contrast with the Nets,
Harry was too old, Katy wastoo old, hard and was too
old. And not only that,there obvious weren't in a position at the
time of those guys were traded topush their chips in and and go all

(01:06:31):
in and win. Now, therewere rumors that Robbus with interest didn't givin
the red, but ultimately It justdidn't make sense to pull the trigger that
early. Even the rougets flectit toget good last off season, you can't
just flip the switch that quick.And Katy doesn't really allow you any you
know, cushion on how long hecan take to become good again. So

(01:06:53):
I think it makes all the sensein the world. It does weigh me
a little bit. It is afactor that adds value to to Cern Specks
versus the nets picks, because thenet picks, the Nets were never going
to get a guy that was worth, you know, the Rockets giving up
those spakes. Mid All Bridges isobviously a really great player, but he's
not the superstarist of the guy youtrade that kind of asset. Fore,

(01:07:14):
I think overall the last couple ofdays have been been pretty protective for Rockets.
I think the outlooks probably better thanit was going and it was just
basically all you can ask for.They didn't and I've said as a fun
Bridges spots, all you can askis that they do not make a goss
All mistake, and it certainly didn't. People that they would argue that a
three down to nine with Marcus Smartwould have been a cost all mistake,

(01:07:38):
you know, drafting Donovaning and thethree to me would have been a local
loss all mistake. They didn't doany of that. I think Reacheppard is
a great fit. I think theoutlook with the certain Speck at the very
least is just it feels just asgood as as as a real good pick.
Stiff On obviously a longer term basis. J Griffin is probably not going
to play, but it was stilla really was still really a really good

(01:08:00):
say to pull off. And yeah, I'm you know, next step is
summerly, so I'm excited to seeif a man will play, if came
with more will play out. I'mguessing they will because they obviously really play
that guys first and second years inthe Summer League, and it's it's exciting
we'll see, you know. Ithink this also also Rockets to be more

(01:08:20):
patient in the star hunting business becausethey're now not expressed by their assets becoming
to I think I think part ofthe reason why you see us tied to
Paul George and Kad and all thoseguys is because well, the Rockets not
eventually they can't keep drafting guys andand the sooner everybody realized realized that they

(01:08:41):
couldn't the least average able happened thoughwar sally they would get for those picks.
So hopefully this foster is a patientattitude for the next couple of years,
because I think that we have alot of guys that serve a real
shot and that warn't us analyzing betterwhat they can be good. Absolutely,
and yeah, the last thing thatI will emphasize again is just how unprecedented

(01:09:06):
this giving Brooklyn back control of twoof their picks, four picks from another
team, basically choosing to short Phoenixinstead of the Phoenix Suns, or choosing
to short Phoenix instead of Brooklyn Nets, and extending that into future years.
There is no parallel. So Iunderstand that positively or negatively, Like we're

(01:09:30):
all human, We're all gonna haveinstincts. Maybe you love it, maybe
it's a little underwhelming. I justthink the logic of it is defensible,
especially when you look at the SunsRoster and Devin Booker in particular, and
as far as the particulars, Ijust think that between the unprecedented nature of
it, it's not like there's anapples to Apple's case study and NBA history,
to my knowledge, and the factthat the Rockets did get a lot

(01:09:54):
that neutral people have objectively looked atas a good Oh, look at this,
So we're recording this. They justreleased the summer League opener on ESPN
National TV July twelfth, the FridayNight Lakers and Rockets, six thirty pm.
That will be Broddy James against ReedShepherd. How are you feeling,

(01:10:15):
Oh, he's gonna get cooked.That's sobo. Broddy's gonna get cooked by
reach up? Yes, okay,yeah, for sure. Yeah. And
by the way, I think Camwill play. I'm a little uncertain about
a Men just for a few reasons. He had. He had some ankle
issues, so I know they're tryingto get him healthy this offseason. And
a men is so advanced, youknow. I think a lot of the
guys they played for second year werethe ones that we're still trying to develop,

(01:10:39):
like the processing components. Maybe youcan argue that the Men needs to
develop the handle, but I think, unlike most of their guys this window,
a Men's so advanced, I don'tknow that there's upside, especially because
they're tried to make sure that he'shealthy. If those ankles are strong,
unless it's a situation where they feellike it'd be awkward to send Cam and
not a men, because I dothink that's short of happened with Tarry Easton

(01:11:00):
last year. Did Tari Easton needto play Summer League? Not really,
but I think it would have beenawkward for Jamari Smith, that's the number
three overall pick to go by himselfand Tari Easton not so I think it's
one of those. Well, ifJamari's gonna play, might as well send
Atari, who loves to play basketballany anyway for a couple of games,
which is all they played so thisyear. I do think Camp will go.
He's a guy who's still braw,still learning the middle side of the

(01:11:23):
game. A men. It wouldn'tfloor me if they hold him out,
But who knows. Maybe a mansays, look, Cam's my guy,
same class. If he goes,I go, time will tell. But
regardless, reed Shepherd Broughdy James.The Summer League opener, National TV,
Friday night, July twelfth, wewill have it covered right here at the
logger line, as we do everythingpertaining to this basketball team. All right,

(01:11:44):
with that, we've talked enough forone Draft week, so we'll bring
things to a close, and ofcourse we'll be back in early July.
As the Rockets enter, the firstfew days of free agency may be quiet,
especially with Rockets punting their trade assetsinto the future, which seem to
signal that there's nothing cooking in theshort term and there's even less of an
incentive to spend aggressively with regards toyou know, we talked earlier this week

(01:12:04):
hunting the mid level exception back intothe season to potentially use as a trade
exception, and now that you haveAJ Griffin that you brought for basically nothing,
then there's even less of a role. Not saying they won't sign anyone,
but who knows, maybe they holdout for a minimum deal instead of
using the bi annual exception and saythe bi annual exception as sort of a
replacement, but the Kpger trade exceptionthat you turned into AJ Griffin. Who

(01:12:26):
knows. Point is, Rockets aredeep enough already. If anything, maybe
they're looking to offload some of theteam option guys. Definitely not looking to
spend super aggressively to add to arotation that's already ten eleven deep. Not
that they'll play eleven guys, butthere's eleven quality rotation players at least maybe
twelve or thirteen if you include Landale, Jeff Green, Jay Shuntate. It's
a deep roster already. So Idon't think anything will be cooking, at

(01:12:49):
least not to my knowledge, overthe next few days. But who knows.
Crazier things have happened. Whatever thecase, we'll talk about it next
week. Also, one final shoutout to throw to Tiltita. He's about
to pick up the team options forthree guys Jock Landale, Jayshawn Tate and
Jeff Green, who aren't in yourrotation at all and are going to make
a combined twenty five to thirty milliondollars. So, in terms of Tilman

(01:13:13):
being willing to do the little thingsthat would be a very easy thing to
sort of save money around the margins, he's not going to do it because
they're valuable in the locker room andthey're valuable as expiring contracts for trade purposes.
So another example, as we saidearlier, if Tilman perhaps learning from
some of his earlier experiences as anew owner and turning over a new leaf,
because I think he's done a reallygood job the last couple of years,
so on that positive note, we'llfinally adjured until our next episode,

(01:13:35):
probably early next week. This iswhere we'll wrap it again. Team option
decisions due on Saturday to twenty ninth, and then free agency negotiations can begin
all around the league on Sunday nightJune thirtieth, so we'll be back shortly
after free agency opens, especially ifthe Rockets do something. But until then,
if you want more coverage, bestplace to get it is on Twitter,
slash x where I'm on there atBendubo's, Powell's on there at Palo

(01:13:57):
Alps, NBA, and the showis on there at the logger line.
If you go link tree in thebio, you can find links to our
distributors, to Apple, Google,Spotify, leave positive review, subscribe.
That's how you'll get benefit of episodesright when they come out, and we'll
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(01:14:20):
station. The team you can consumetheir content right through that handy link tree
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All right, with those plugs complete, we'll wrap up for Paolo.
I'm then thanks to always for listening, and please get back soon for another
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In busy draft week, Rockets add Reed Sheppard, AJ Griffin

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