Kevin Harlan joins Wayne & Matt

Wayne and Matt chat with three time national sportscaster of the year Kevin Harlan.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
We sent him a script and he recorded it free,
which was unbelievable. I mean John person of the Voice
of God, and he'd come on and but I got
I have the raw Wayne, uh, the raw reel to
real tape that NFL Film sent me in my basement
at home in Kansas City.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Oh wow.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
And he he read it a couple of times and
he said, oh, hold on, hold on here one second,
let me change this line right here.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Then he then he re records it and only the
way for Senda can do and uh and and at
the end of it, he is he's finished it. He's
nailed it. There's about a five second pause and he goes, no,
that's a horse that I can ride.

Speaker 4 (00:47):
This is the Larravie and la Pey Podcasts, a production
of iHeartRadio Podcasts with hosts Wayne Learvie, the voice of
the Green Bay Packers, and Matt Lapey, the voice of
Wisconsin Badgers football and men's basketball. The Laravian la Pey
podcast is presented by UW Credit Union.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Here for every you.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Hi, everybody, I'm Wayne Larabee and I'm Matt Lafey.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
On this episode of the Lara Vie La Pey Podcast,
we talked with three time National Sportscaster of the Year
Kevin Harlan. It's great to have Kevin Harland back on
the Lara Vie La Pay podcast. We've known each other
for I don't know, for over four decade, he said,
this is Kenny's back in Kansas City. I hate to
date you. I know that that's be new to you

(01:31):
for your network assignments. But we've known each other dating
back to the seventies and eighties. But we were both
just little kids back then, right.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
We were Yeah, you hired me, Wayne, and I was
still in college and you had taken the Kansas City
Chiefs radio play by play job. And I am one
of the many young broadcasters that wanted to grow up
in b Wayne because of his electrifying call on radio.
A lot of my style is based on listening to
him and taking notes and and being a part of

(02:01):
his broadcast.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
I was.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
I produced the pregame show and in Kansas City and
Wayne orchestrated everything. And then Wayne went out of the Bears.
And when Wayne left to go to Chicago and WGN,
I was lucky enough to audition and get the job,
following in his footsteps, which was not easy. But Wayne
Larevie in my career is as about a bigger force

(02:24):
and impact as anybody who has had as much as
maybe my dad and a couple others. So I owe
a lot to Wayne. And he spotted me at a
at A when I I said, when I was in college,
and so I owe so much to him and everything
he's he's done for me and my family with his
guidance and mentorship and his example that I followed closely

(02:45):
when I was learning the business of broadcasting.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, you know, I got to tell you guys this.
You know what we hired at ca CMO Kevin Harland
to do was put together the first two hour pregame
show ever in the NFL on radio. And he put it.
You know, Kevin, you kind of overdid it a little bit.
You're you filled those two hours. It was phenomenal programming, folks.

(03:09):
You know, the thing that people don't realize is Kevin Harlan.
If he wasn't on air broadcasting, he would be flat
out the best producer ever in radio. He put together
a two hour program. Understand, nobody had ever done this.
This is like I want to say, nineteen seventy nine
nineteen eighties. Yes, yes, yes, most of the time your
pregame show was like, you know, thirty minutes before kickoff,

(03:31):
that kind of thing. But this is a bad Chiefs team.
Wasn't win. Oh we were bad as Chiefs team. People
think the Chiefs have always been Mahomes and Amy. They
have no idea. And Kevin, you recall Arrowhead Stadium eighty
thousand seats in that player, seventy eight thousand, and they
could only sell out for two games a year. When

(03:52):
the Raiders came to town. The hated Raiders. And when
John l Way and the Broncos came to town, only
games they sold out. They couldn't sell other games. Marvelieve
he was in the infancy of his head coaching career.
They were putting together building this team. They had a
five year plan of the whole bit, and they were
pretty dreadful those first couple of years. So Kevin puts
together this pregame show, and you must have contacted every

(04:15):
reporter in every city they became, you know, just household
names around Kansas City, build a Fabio and Pittsburgh and
all these other guys. Someone in Cleveland at every game
was previewed by someone in the city where the game
is being played. It was phenomenal stuff. And Kevin, you
could you could be you as successful as you are

(04:37):
as a play by play guy, you'd be pretty successful
as an executive producer as well, because that's what you
did as like I don't know, twenty one twenty year
old kid, with that show. You just took it and
went with it, and it was phenomenal radio.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Really, it was great. The best part of a way
you'll recall, and Matt, you'll appreciate this with your long
life in the broadcasting business. As we were looking for
a dynamic wa to open the show and give it
some real heft. And whether I asked Wayne to do
this or not, I called and left a message on

(05:10):
the voicemail machine of John facendat NFL Films and I
explained what I wanted to do. Have him open this
two hour network radio pregame show and be a part
of the Chiefs broadcast every Sunday along a vast Midwest
network led by KCMO Radio which is now w HB

(05:34):
Radio in Kansas City. And he called back and he said,
can you send me or can someone you know give
me a feel for what I'm gonna say. And we
sent him a script and they recorded it free, which
was unbelievable. I mean John Ferson of the Voice of God,
and he'd come on and but I got I have

(05:57):
the raw Wayne, the raw reel to real tape that
NFL film sent me in my basement at home in
Kansas City.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh wow.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
And he read it a couple times and he said, oh,
hold on, hold on here one second, let me change
this line right here. Then he then he re records
it and only the way for Senda can do and
uh and and at the end of it, he is
he's finished it. He's nailed it. There's about a five
second pause and he goes, no, that's a horse that

(06:30):
I can ride.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
That is the story I've never heard. Yes, yeah, yeah,
you got him to open the show, which was just phenomenal.
But I didn't realize the story behind that.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah yeah. And he didn't charge us one cent. He
he had he had narrated his highlights of the NFL
back in the day, there were nothing like we've got now.
Was this is back in the in the late seventies,
early eighties, and uh. And he proved to be just
an incredible addition to that show, which was a lot
of fun, and Wayne's idea and and uh we kind

(07:08):
of hit an unlimited budget for a while until they
came in. Do you remember that kid and said, who
are these people that keep looking for money? Who bought these?
These these all of our sinners. These are all about
reporters and and me have been decent coming up with
ideas for the show. But maybe my accounting was a
little bit a little bit sketchy, so but anyway, it
was It was a wonderful way to be brought in

(07:29):
the business, and Wayne was the reason why I was
there and doing it.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
You're the one that blamed now because the Packer pregame
show starts two days before kicking.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well what about Wisconsin's predamn show.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
It's about the same.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, Well, these shows are just unbelievable. They can sell them,
and they're sure fun for the fan to listen to,
aren't they leading up right driving to the game or
in a tailgate, parking lots on place and listening after
they gave me out.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
The thing that I think a lot of people, I mean,
we all know this, and people at our age Brad
could know this. But John Facenda, what have. His day
job was that of a news anchor right in Philadelphia.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
The story goes is that Ed Seble who began NFL films,
and then his son Steve, who played small college football
then joined his dad was sitting at a bar in
Philadelphia in the mid sixties when they kind of began
NFL films and John Facenda was looking at the TV

(08:24):
in this bar and narrating what was going on on
the TV in this Philadelphia bar, and Ed Sable was
sitting in back of him or close to and could
hear it and said, BINGO came on and I have
found my narrator for NFL films. Now they had Pat
Summer all do some. I think Ray Scott did a

(08:45):
little bit. But John Facenda, who just was put it,
got the Rosella Ward a couple of years ago. Even
in the wake of his passing, he was put in
the Pro Football Hall of Fame, as Wayne will be someday,
and and that was a monumental moment for a guy,
as I think the three of us would agree, had

(09:05):
such a impact in the way the NFL framed their
product every Sunday, and he clearly was the soundtrack for it.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Kevin is being very kind. I'll be lucky to get
into any Hall of Fame, which ls the Pro Football
Hall of Fame. Hey, Kevin Arland is our guest on
the lerre Vie Lapey podcast. Kevin, I want to ask
you to go back to when you were a KAU
and you went to KU from Green Bay. What was
your high school? Was it Preble?

Speaker 1 (09:34):
It was a Primontre Premontre High School, and they had
a radio station. I think I've told you this Wayne
run by students. It was a tech radio station. And
I tried out for the job and got it and
did that for a couple of years finishing up my
high school. I caught the bug. And then when I
was in high school, I got to work in Lambeau's
press box and handout statistics at the end of quarters.

(09:57):
I got to spot for visiting radio NFL networks or
the big networks NBC or CBS when they come to
Lambeau to broadcast. Got to be in the truck. I
remember one of the most indelible memories I have that
really really just accelerated my interest was in the booth
when Jim Simpson and John Brody were the NBC broadcasters,

(10:21):
and I was in the back of the booth on
a headset with New York and all the other stadiums
that NBC was broadcasting from that afternoon, giving scoring updates.
So unlike today, we'll see James Brown or whoever you know,
bust into a broadcast and say, you know, in Philadelphia
moments ago, you can give the highlight. They would read it,

(10:44):
or they would have the chiron, the printing, the graphics
at the bottom of the screen generated from the truck
on a new score from a new press box. And
I was as called the interlink, and I was on
this headset but in front of me literally within an
arms reach, where Jim Simpson and John Brody, and I

(11:05):
just thought Jim Simpson was one of the early voices
that I really really gravitated toward. I just I loved
his style, think of him often. He then left NBC
and worked for ESPN. But watching the inner workings behind
the curtain, so to speak, with such an advantage that
most kids don't have. But I was lucky enough to
be in that position and just really embrace that. And

(11:28):
if you are what you think, if you act the
way you think, the way I thought was was that
was that would be my life. That's what I wanted
to do, and and by the grace of God, it's happened.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
So did you ever anticipate that you would become, you know,
at the top of the business like you are a
three time national sportscaster of the Year NBA on T
and T football and NFL on CBS and all the
other things you've done. Did you when you were a
KU did you think what was your objective? Were you
thinking that bigger? Were you thinking something smaller than that?

Speaker 1 (12:05):
Well, you guys will realize I appreciate this too. At
the time when I was producing Wayne's pregame in Kansas City,
Mutual Radio was broadcasting their game of the week on
Sunday afternoons, and for whatever reason, sometimes they would come
into Arrow had probably because the opponent was so big,
they were on the road and had just stood out

(12:27):
in that timeslot. And a guy named Tony Roberts who
also did Notre Dame football, So we'd do a Notre
Dame football game on Saturday. He'd race to the airport.
He'd get to some NFL city Saturday night or Sunday
morning and do the game on national radio. And that
was my goal. My goal was to be Tony Roberts,

(12:48):
let alone a Wade lairvie, but just radio play by play,
sports play by play was my goal. The TV kind
of happened. I just was lucky enough to fall into that.
But my my heart still is with radio. I know
the two of you love radio, clearly. The TV stuff
is nice, but radio gives you the chance to use

(13:11):
everything in your toolkit, right your imagination, your words, you're pacing,
your inflection, all of it is right there. It's the
purest form of broadcasting because there's nothing scripted. It's all
what do I see? How quickly can I convey it?
How can I do it even more powerfully and impactfully
with words and voice inflection? And I love that challenge.

(13:34):
I think it's helped me in other parts of my broadcasting,
But my happiest moments are doing Monday Night football then
and then in the playoffs on network radio. I agree,
you know what.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
I dabbled in television with baseball with the Brewers. It
was such a dramatic you know, the sports are so
different too, I mean at the pace and all of
that stuff. But yeah, radio is much more unscripted I mean,
obviously there's a grid and you're following a certain rundown,
but it's much more free flowing. And I don't know
if I ever got completely comfortable because I only worked
fifty five or sixty games max. Maybe you know more

(14:07):
so towards the end that in the beginning. But how
long Kevin for you is and maybe Wayne you as well,
when you make the adjustment those first couple of years
on a television broadcaster, how long did it take before
you felt like, Okay, I think I've got I've got
a good feel for how all of this works and
how I want to deliver.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
A game when you start, because you did a lot
in Chicago and Big ten Network and esp you did
all kinds of stuff on TV. But I'll let you be.
I'll let you begin with that. Then I'll chime it
at the end.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
You know, I always found the television. It's interesting because
when I would do a Big ten football game on
Saturday and then a radio game in the NFL, be
at the Bears or the Packers on Sunday, I always
felt more exhausted after the game on Saturday than I
did on Sunday. And the thing about television that. You know,

(14:57):
I tell people this all the time. Television is the
ultimate team sport in broadcasting. Okay, when you do a telecast,
you got a producer and a director in your head.
That's just two people there. You've got all these camera people.
You've got you know, a director cutting the game, make
getting new shots. You've got stories that you planned to
get into this telecast somehow. You've got a sideline reporter,

(15:20):
you've got your analyst, and really what you are as
a traffic cop on television and you you know, you're
trying to frame something that happened that somebody saw with
the right phrase or words that will kind of elevate
that visual a little bit. And that's not easy to do.
And I also felt that, you know, it's funny because

(15:42):
one time I was talking about something and the TV
the screen was showing something else. And I remember Tim
Sutton was our director at the time, and we had
a discussion after the game and Tim said, wait, if
it's not on the screen, it's not happening. So talk
about what you see on the street. So you're really restricted.

(16:03):
Now you get to radio the next day. The canvas
is yours. Just start painting, you know, anything you want
or how you want to do it, whereas television, you know,
you're restricted a little bit. And I thought also, Kevin,
the preparation for TV is much different. You know, you
you it's more story oriented. When you're on radio, you
don't have time for a flowery story about so and

(16:24):
so doing something in the community or whatever like that.
You're going play to play and you got to reset
the play every doubt. Television you can tell those stories.
And that's that's a different preparation, uh, for and then
and then it is for a radio game.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, a lot more notes and you both know this.
And the number one job in radio time and score
who's on the field and the play as it is unfolding,
and on TV you're the play by play guy is
probably fourth, and importance the pictures number one, picture says

(17:01):
it all. Then the analyst because they want to explain
what's going on, why or why not that play worked.
Third is the replay, the graphics and all the swishes
and all the little toys they've got to play with.
And then fourth is the play by play announcer. But
you can accent and that there's a challenge there, clearly
that is so great, But Wayne, you said some which

(17:23):
is so true. When I was getting ready for TV,
I remember one time it arrow hit when I was
doing the Chiefs, looking through the glass window at the
network TV better than broadcast booth and watching Michaels al
Michaels do a game on ABC, and he looked at
that monitor. I'd say ninety seven percent of the time

(17:46):
every time I looked, he was looking there. And I
threw a couple of different people. I had someone ask
him why does he look so much of the monitor?
Just like you said, Wayne, they said, talk about what
people can see and not about something that maybe you're
looking at. And radio you can look all over the
field pick what you want to talk about. But in
TV you've got your kind of a slave to what
the what the picture is showing, how you can actcentate,

(18:07):
and how you can you know, make it even come
to life more. And sometimes you say nothing. If a
picture's worth a thousand words, you have to say nothing
at all. So yeah, it's it's a little it's a
little tricky, a nice challenge. Radio to me is the
purest form of broadcasting because it's voice, it's reporting skills,
it's word usage, it's like it's all these things inflection,

(18:30):
it's all these things that pink that picture. I've always
contended and now you probably feel this way with so
many of your games listen to on radio, both football
and basketball, that if you call a play a big
shot or a big big play by the Badgers in football,

(18:51):
it can almost have more impact than if you saw
it with your own eyes because of the warrior twisting,
leaping two headed and falling down on the corner the
end zone. You know, like you can really build up
your voice and and it's it's like old time radio
because if your imagination is such a strong part of
your emotions, theater, the imagination, it can be I think

(19:13):
more powerful then if people saw the play themselves. I
think sometimes people are more disappointed the replay after they've
seen it. Maybe they've heard it now they've seen it
goes gosh, I thought it was even a greater catch
than that. But you can make it so indelible in
somebody's mind by the call on radio.

Speaker 3 (19:31):
That might be the only benefit, Kevin of social media
is that they will replay that. Sometimes it will be
a network broadcast. We'll put the radio call under it,
so like people who are at the game say, I
wonder how that keeps sure Wayne, you get this all
the time. I wonder how that sounded the big Jordan
Love touched out past late in the game, or the
or the big Wisconsin moment. It may be the only

(19:52):
thing that's positive about social media, but that is maybe
he help keep us somewhat relevant.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
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Speaker 2 (20:04):
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Speaker 3 (20:23):
Curious Kevin I asked Wayne about this a little bit
earlier in the preseason, but just preparing for preseason football
games where you could have, you know, college games like
for me, I don't know a ton about Western Michigan
until the last, you know, week ten days, where you're
boning up on a bunch of names and guys that

(20:43):
you don't know a whole lot about. But a preseason
game for you, I mean, sure, it's great. It's kind
of the equivalent of batting practice. You get a little
bit of the rhythm of a game, but just trying
to get the rosters down Walker's I know it's a
little bit in the weeds here, I get it, but
I think it's I think listeners with be fascinated to
how you guys prep for a preseason game when who

(21:04):
knows how many.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
Guys are going to get all the field. Well, I'll
be quick because because Wayne's got the chore that that
you know you've got one hundred and eighty guys that
could possibly play, and that that becomes a and you
certainly can't memorize them in one week on TV. UH,
we concentrate by doing the Packers games for the team.

(21:25):
Ninety nine percent of our stuff is on the Packers, UH,
information on individual players, and I guess they spend more
time on that than I do on other things. Like
Wayne was talking about that you might use on a
TV broadcast, you know, other stories, they're all Packer centric.

(21:45):
So I've got little notes on each one of the players,
you know, kind of introducing them to our audience on TV,
and spend a lot of July doing that, and then
in August just read the stories and and watch the
TV reports and try to stay up with conversations. In
a press box, Larry or Wayne O will offer it

(22:07):
tidbit that they'd noticed in practice because they're there every day,
and uh, we use that. John Coon is there, my
partner on TV, and that's a huge benefit because he
is there every day watching, knowing talking to the coaching staff.
We then talked to the coaching staff the morning of
the game. Wayne is in that conversation too, so so
it's it's very little on the Browns, Broncos or Ravens,

(22:30):
with just a couple headlines about the other team, but
all Patrick Packers centric. And I, uh then then find
that because after a while, you're in the rhythm of
every practice, you know, the competition of various positions, and
and then Wayne, the only thing just from a from
a from a broadcasting standpoint, I'll give a beat or

(22:53):
two until I get the number down, like I said,
always completed the pass and there we go, goes down
the sideline. It's here, you know, well whatever the kid like,
You've got to instantly identify these guys on radio. Yeah,
and I can't even imagine in the point mean I
did it for a long time, but I can't imagine.
It is so difficult to do and I've probably forgotten that,

(23:14):
but I can on TV give it a couple of
beatses and I don't use a spotter, so I'm I'm
trying to who's just some guy's never caught a pass,
taking three snaps in the game out of right state,
and here he's caught the pass and there he goes
it's Wayne Lard, Tovie tell this, you know, yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
The preseason is a it's a great rehearsal for the
regular season. It's enough to do pre season games on radio,
it really is, you know your team. But I get
to the point with training camp, and so the Packers
have ninety guys in camp and I'm trying to watch
practice in it. At some point it's it say, who
the hell is never forty one? You look down my
ro because I've got so many mains numbers.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
You know.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
It's just like, and I'm trying to think about the
Cleveland team coming up and everything that just after a
while to say, you know what, I really don't know anybody,
Thank you, no open, You're really right? Yeah exactly.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
And then mag we went to college every Saturday, is right,
I mean every and some of the I might have
to duplicate numbers, which yeah, be difficult, right, Yeah, they
do it.

Speaker 3 (24:22):
As a matter of fact, before the first game this
year was constant. They were like the week up there
were guys who were switching jersey numbers. So I mean, now,
I mean I'm at most of the practices, but all
of a sudden, number ten is wearing number three. The
what okay, what else do I need to know here?
A number two is now number twelve and vice versa.
But yeah, the duplicate numbers, it's always a uh, that's

(24:43):
where the the luxury and uh, I know at the
college level, not all coaches do it. I've been lucky
at Wisconsin where they'll they'll let us in. Uh, you know,
myself and my broadcast partner Mark Tusher to it. Does
it at least get a sneak peek of what they're doing,
most importantly, you know, preparing for their opponent. But then yeah,
those little things that aren't so little need to know

(25:06):
that a cornerback by the name of Nisier for Cury.
So yeah, it's it adds to the challenge. We don't
get the warm ups like you guys do at the
college level. But at the part of me is a
little envious of you guys. Another part of me says,
y'all can have it, even have those preseason games.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
But Wayne's right, it is a great ramp up for
the regular season. Now since then, I've started to go
back to my radio stuff from last year. Uh and
my first radio game will be Thursday at Arrowhead with
with with Baltimore and Kansas City. But the TV stuff,
for me, at least, it takes more just getting the rhythm,
and I think the three of us would agree pacing

(25:48):
and rhythm is such an important part of radio, in
particular to capturing it so you're not talking too fast
and still making sense yet able to you know, you know,
like there's a lot and those preseason games are just
invaluable I think when you're doing television and getting ready
for the season.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, absolutely, Kevin. You know, one of the things I
would say to everybody out there, and Matt and I
have talked about this, television is analyst driven. The analyst
is really the guy in television, whereas radio is play
by play driven. And I think the analyst job on
radio is really hard because quite frankly, he's got little
less of thirty seconds to make a sailient point, to

(26:31):
try to embellish what the listener just heard. And that's
a tough trick. It doesn't really have pictures to rely
on that much. I mean, he can look at the
play and that type of thing, but the analyst on
radio has a tough job. The play by play guy
on radio's painting the picture, so he's kind of in
the forefront, whereas in television it's exactly the opposite, and

(26:53):
you're relying on that color guy that really embellish and
give depth to what that replay means and how it
happened and why it happened like it did.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Now I I I would say that the radio NFL
analyst has, and when you've done so many NBA games
has like like like when we're doing NBA on TNT,
it's like, really they should the the action is so fast,

(27:24):
you're trying to get people up to date on scoring
or blocks or whatever that by the time that comes
out of your mouth at the other end and they're
they're shooting or doing whatever they're doing. And and really
the times that the analyst should speak in the NBA
or probably on dead balls, free throws, all those kinds
of things, when they are those pockets of space that

(27:45):
are available. I've always thought that college basketball on radio
and on television, excuse me, is the perfect is the
perfect pace, longer play clock, shot clock. The kids aren't fast,
they don't shoot as well, so there's time for the
analyst in college basketball and television to put their point in.

(28:09):
Probably more in radio and then football it's kind of
like a march, right. Basketball is like just so back
and forth, it's like a windshield wiper. But in football,
if you can get out the call and be efficient
with it, there is that fifteen second pocket there that
the analyst can get in. So on football games on

(28:29):
radio it sounds more together. I don't know you to
do radio analysts work in the NBA, like it would
be impossible. Basketball at the college level, I think is different.
Colleges has a nice tempo to it where there's space,
there's room for each lane to be filled by play

(28:51):
by play analysts and sideline, and I think radio NFL
has that. But it's got to be pretty struck it, right.
I mean, you've got to you gotta make your call,
but then come in quickly set up. I mean it's
boom boom boom uh and basketball just a completely different
animal and tackle.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Let me ask you, both of you, guys this, Matt
and Kevin. When you go and you do a football
season and football is kind of for broadcast, it's pretty
good because it you know, it has a pace, it
has a ramp up in that kind of thing. It's
not frantic back and forth necessarily in a football game.
But when you go from football to basketball, be radio

(29:32):
or TV, especially radio, I find, oh my god, this
game is really fast, a lot faster what I'm used
to calling.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Absolutely right.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yeah, one thing one thing for me, guys Wisconsin as
as people who follow the Big tendo play a slower pace.
Historically I show the last thirty or so years, so, but.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
It's still a little bit more up and down.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
And that said, last year they played a little bit
a little bit quicker under Greg Dard. But for me, yeah,
I would say the transition like when you do some
basketball games in November early December and then you go
back to a Wisconsin Bowl game, for instance, the transition
basketball to football for me is probably a little better
or a little easier, I guess than the other way around.

(30:18):
You go for even though it was constant with football,
is try to play at a little faster pace than
what fans have been used to seeing for three decades,
but going from football, or excuse me, going from basketball
to football, for me has been probably a more manageable
transition than the other way around.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
I've tried to do it where when there's an NFL
play on radio, call it almost like I'm calling a
basketball play. In other words, you know, love is under center,
receivers to the left and rights, you know right, and
more of a you know, here's the passage top the key.
They get it to the pay in the corner of
where I being fifteen foot jump shot off the rim,

(30:59):
picked up by Jones. He'll go the other way with
the right end dribble, and and and and so I've
I've almost Wane and Matt gone to taking what is
a nice rhythm pacing tempo on my basketball and then
tried to put that insert that as a call radio football.

(31:22):
I'm sure it drives people crazy, probably drives most people crazy.
But but that at least to me, keeps up with
the the all the different movement that's going on with
an offensive set, guys in motion, sub packages, all this
stuff going on, Like like I I think there's got
to be if it's if it's too like like streaky,

(31:43):
too clipped. I don't know. I I guess I'm just
such a book. When I talked to college kids and
high school kids, I'll always say, you know, the number
one thing if you're sending in a tape of reel
that that that a perspective employer would listen to is
delivery and voice quality, because the other stuff can be

(32:07):
worked with, like information. How can you become a better reporter?
I think there's something instinctual clearly, but you can. You
can follow more of a program that way. But boy,
if your delivery is off, if you're stumbling over words,
if you can't get that thought out, if there's not
a comfortable feeling, and the way that you appear on
camera or sound on radio, you're in trouble. And sometimes

(32:31):
you've either kind of got it or you don't. That's
kind of a god given quality. You can practice it
and probably improve it if you need to, but that
becomes the number one thing you listen. Like like when
you guys, if a kid sends you a reel or
a tape or whatever a link and say, hey, can
you listen to how I sound? Can you guys not
tell in thirty seconds, I can't. Like I within thirty seconds,

(32:53):
I can say, ooh, you can think about five things
they would You don't have to watch the ten minutes
they've sent you or the for the five minute radio clip.
I mean I can tell almost instantly, just because I
go over my own stuff and I know what it
is pleasing in my ear and in what I would
like to hear within seconds as right, Yeah, you know,

(33:14):
and that if they catch you in those.

Speaker 3 (33:15):
First thirty seconds, you listen to thirty more and then
you look at all the you listen for all the basics.
How do you how do you reset what's going on
in the game, how you go into and come out
of a commercial break, and and all of that, And yes,
that is that is something they try to think, all
of us probably try to stress to the to the
to the young aspiring broadcasters. The one thing that I
found though, too, I mean, you guys have probably sent

(33:36):
stuff all the time. There's a lot of young talent
out there. I mean any of this business where we
know that you know, there's a lot of not so
pleasant things going on in the world of broadcasting, no
matter the platform. But man, the talent out there is
really it's kind of exciting to think about these these young.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
Men and Willen who are wanting to get into the business.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah, you know, it really is. And I look listen
to some of these guys and I'm saying to myself, Yeah,
that guy's better than that was it. And I'm glad
I'm on this end of my career other end, because.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
I'm wided up by successor right now.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
This guy's good.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
I like, I like this person of that person.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Are there?

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, I'm great.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
I think there are all a lot of them are good,
really good.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah. I mean I mean, like, how about how about
where you're driving home from Madison or from Green Bay
and you're picking up like another NFL broadcast or another
college broadcaster, maybe a high school games. You're going to
a game and going, holy smokes, this guy might be
and and and who knows where Wisconsin and and you like,
oh man, oh man, that's he sounds or she sounds terrific.

(34:44):
And you know, so I I I've I've always the
thing that caught my ear, which I again I'm going
to facenda when I was about we've all had that
that moment like when we were a kid where we
said well that might be kind of a that. Damn,
I'm really infatuated and seduced by by what I'm watching
or listening to. When John Facenda narrated the highlights to

(35:08):
the Packer Chief Super Bowl one on NFL films, and
I was about seven at the time, Uh, it wasn't
necessarily the game that I was glued to. It was
his delivery, it was his voice. I never heard someone
like Facenda before, and and that was the early days

(35:29):
of his NFL films run. So I was more attracted
to voice and delivery almost before I was to the games.
We're all sports fans, clearly, and and and but but
I when when I heard that, I go what what?
I was captivated by his by his delivery, his call,
his his narration of that game.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
One of the.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
Broadcast nerd things that I do. And I got a
lot of nerd things, I guess with broadcasting and people.
You get this on YouTube, just look up. They call
it Pro Football. One of the first NFL films with
John Facenda and Brian Anderson, and I've had his chatting.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Brian's measured a to.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Any number of people.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
The NFL has been so smart and going back to
the sables where they make those half hour hour programs
many times better than the games themselves, right, I mean,
it's just an incredible marketing tool. I know baseball is different,
but I think to some extent it's missed out a
little bit. The NBA has certainly done some of pro

(36:31):
football with what John Facenda and that NFL films in general.
That's actually the golden marketing tool maybe of all high.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Isn't it. And they're all in the Hall of Fame.
That's the disables. Ed and Steve both now not with
us Facenda and in all the subsequent announcers. I work
with the guy at Westwood One named Scott Graham, who
is now the new voice of NFL films, or has
been in that role for a long time. But he
he I don't know if he took for send us

(37:01):
place or or if he came maybe a broadcaster or
two after. But but Scott Graham is based in Philadelphia,
and so much of our businesses. It's like the whole
country is tilted toward who are the New York Announced
Susan put these guys on, you know, mean, like it's
so in the Midwest. Sometimes it's hard to get but
there are so many great broadcasters there that I and

(37:21):
that's through these people that had these networks and NFL films.
Here most they hear Eastern broadcasters, but Scott Graham is
there and he's been the voice, and he's also our
our host on on along with Rich Eismen on on
Westwood One broadcast, so I get to work with Scott.
He has some great for Senda stories. But voice is

(37:43):
such a big delivery, is such a big part of
our business. And I always tell the kids, I know
how you guys are, but when you listen, I think
we're always I'm I'll speak for myself. I hear stuff
every broadcast that I want to tweet, change, push harder,
bring back more. I'm constantly evolving and and back to
your point about the young broadcasters, I don't if you're

(38:05):
not doing that, you're gonna fall behind. You've got to
constantly try to improve, even in our stature in the business,
what we're doing, our positions. I think if you're not
getting as Madden and said, if you're not getting better,
you're getting worse. And so constantly listening to your call
your product is am I staying up to date? Am
I getting better? Is my voice quality still good? Am

(38:27):
I calling the things I need to call in a
football or basketball game? And it's like a torture chamber, right,
I go, Oh my god, I could have Yeah. I
think hundreds of things I would have said better than
what I said, but that hopefully leads to something better
down the road for you.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
You're exactly right, Kevin, and I will listen to snippets
of my work during the season. But this is something
I've done recently over the last ten years or more.
I go back and start listening to my football stuff
in June for two reasons. Number one, to kind of
get my head back into that space. But number two,
when I don't know what happened on the next play,

(39:04):
I don't know what I was feeling like, you know.
Whereas if I listened to the Sunday game on Monday
or Tuesday, I can my head goes back to exactly
where I was exactly and so I you know, and
I know what's coming up next. But when I go
back and listen to it in June, I might put
it on in the car or something, and I'm trying
to figure out, did I how did that call come out?
And then then I find I beat myself up during

(39:25):
the regular season, and don't I feel like I'm really
you know, because I hear the bad stuff, But when
you go back and listen to it like a listener
hears it, it's a whole different sound. It's a whole
different thing. And so I don't know if you guys
use that technique or not, but it's it's amazing to
go back or listen to something you did three years
ago or whatever, and that kind of gives you an

(39:47):
idea where are you at? Especially in radio? Are you
telling people what the score is? Are you telling you
where's the ball, who's out to the left and right sides,
and describing the play and all that. You know, that's
when I can really sit there and say, well, this
is how a listener is taking in our broadcast, because that,
you know, I don't know what's coming up next. I
forgot about that game or this player or whatever. So

(40:10):
but you're exactly right, Kevin. There's so many times after
a big play saying to myself, boy, I thought of
the perfect words. About twenty minutes after that play, I
had the perfect call, but unfortunately the moment is best.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah, exactly exactly now. You listen to your stuff, don't you.
I do it.

Speaker 3 (40:27):
It's a very similar way in to what you do.
I like to let some time elapse and then I'm up. Recently,
I'm driving around and I have serious ECCEM radio on
the Big ten radio channel, and they're playing back a
game Wiscontinent Nebraska, and I'm cringing, thinking what are you doing?
You know, be copy Like Mark Tauscher. My analyst will
mention something and he'll use a football term skip pull,

(40:50):
and I'm thinking, how many I'm driving around again a
couple weeks ago. How many people know what skip pool is?
Why didn't you ask him what that is? That's one
example of many. And yeah, there's a score time ball
and am I give it a football delivery? Or am
I giving a baseball delivery of a game on a
Tuesday night at the middle of May?

Speaker 1 (41:08):
You know, this is kind of a big deal.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
Let's get into this a little bit.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
It is a be a very humbling thing.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
It can be. And you know, like I said, I
beat myself up during the season about different things that happened.
But here's the nether thing. The flagship station for the
Packers ninety seven to three. The game in Milwaukee plays
back on Sunday afternoons in the summer because they don't
have baseball, so they play back some of these big
Packers games over the years. And one time I'm driving

(41:38):
back from the golf course, driving back coll It's about
a twenty minute drive, and they're playing back this Packers
Dallas playoff game where Jared Cook caught a pass of
the sideline Mason Crosby hit a fifty two yard field
goal to upset the Cowboys and send the Packers to
the NFC title game. So, and I'm listening to this,
and I'm getting to the driveway and the thing is

(41:59):
going on. I stop, I'm in the car, I'm turned
off the car, and now I'm still listening to the
radio and saying, what am I doing here? I know
what happens in this game, but you know, the broadcast
itself was apparently captivating enough that I said, I want
to hear how this comes out, you know, even though
I kind of knew what was going to happen, but
it was one of those things. So it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah, it's it's hard to listen to your own work
a little bit less painful maybe down the road, because
you do forget how you were feeling at that moment,
or what was being said in your headset, or or
what the circumstance was for whatever. Maybe you're cold, maybe
we're you know whatever, maybe battling a cold, who knows.
But all those moments, I do the exact same thing

(42:42):
about June. When I get a free afternoon, go back
and watch and short and take notes. I'm constantly taking
notes what I like and what I don't like, and
and a lot of times I'm rewriting the same thing.
You know, talk slower or or or you know how
many in the secondary here here's why I'm gonna do

(43:02):
this year. With every NFL coach that we interview with
CBS on Thursday or Friday, some of these things like
like had you had you ever heard Matt Lafleur Wayne
talk about the strain and play you know it used
to be effort. Yeah, And I'd never heard a coach
said I don't think we strained enough.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
I took that to mean effort. Is that something that?
Is that a term that he uses? I had never
heard a coach use it in that way, and now
I love it. I love because it's another good adjective.
It's another good word that you can you know, he
strains as he tries to get the ball over the
thirty five yard line or and I thought that that's

(43:46):
another good word, I can you And he was using
in terms of effort and how hard guys we're working.
I love and I love that term.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
Yeah, you know what this summer after the Denver game
at Denver was the first right I heard that, you.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
Know, I know, me too, me too.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
So we just didn't strain enough. And I'm sEH. It
wasn't quite sure how that was meshing in, but it
became kind of a new term. You're right and it
and I think, Kevin, it probably is related to effort.
You know what else could it be?

Speaker 1 (44:16):
But so so wait, wait, like when you see it
like here, here's another one. When I see a jet sweep,
it's it's we know what a jet sweep is? And
the guy hands off. What is it called when there's
a jet sweep but he throws it a foot in
front of him, which is officially a pass. So I've
been calling it a jet sweep pass because they don't

(44:38):
know how you guys see the same what do you
guys going go on?

Speaker 3 (44:42):
We call it a pop pass, pop pop pass, like
with the average, And I always think, what is the
average listener? No, they may not even know what a
jet sweep is, I say, And then I then they
go back over and say it was a pass as
a guy. As a guy was in motion, he just
literally flipped it in front a foot or two and
the guy got it in stride.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
And that's a pass. But if you say a pass,
I'm thinking sideline pass, dominant, you know what. So so
I called a jet sweep. I don't know what to
call it. And I'm gonna ask every coach what do
you call this? But a pop maybe? Maybe that's way.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Don't want Kevin, You're gonna get different. I know it.
I know they all have different terms for these things. Yeah,
I'm the same way because I asked the packers people
about that as well. When the floor got to town
they started doing some of this stuff and and yeah,
everybody had a different term for it. But yeah, I
think jet sweet passes about well. But the listener's got

(45:35):
a note on.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
A jet it's jet sweep it.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, there's that motion, but instead of going behind the quarterback,
the motion is in front of the quarterback and he
just flips him the ball and it technically is a
pass you know, Yeah, that bread was still a run.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
And you've got to paint the picture. And a lot
of people that are listening. I always think I'm talking
to my eighty five year old mom, like like if
I would I, what would I say? And I say,
in motion comes look at a and he runs in
front of the quarterback and it's a small pitch in
front there. That's a passage at sweet pant.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
You know.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
I kind of have to retread a little bit and
kind of walk people through the play because it can
be a little bit a little You want to paint
the clearest picture of all and sometimes you know, I yeah,
I mean like.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
A bubble, a bubble, like a bubble screen like like
like some I don't know if that the average maybe
they do.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
Maybe I'm the dumb one. I probably am, like, like,
you know, a bubble screen, like with the average football fan,
the average I'm not talking about the guy that's sitting
in her or the gall it's betting money every play,
every quarter, but they know everything and they're devouring, you know,
things online and they're watching and they're listening talking about

(46:47):
just the ad, just drawing the picture as clearly as
I can in the mind of the of the listener,
and that that is a little bit tough.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
That is a challenge. You guys saw about the term
strain though very avais all.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
The time, did he? Yeah, I never live that.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
I love it. I love it.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
I told him the other day. I told Matt, I said,
I love that war that was it was. He was
talking with Harbaught and we were there and I said,
I love that, and John goes, I like that too.
I think John is gonna be used it in ball before,
but I thought it was such a great I'm guessing
one of his assistants, or maybe maybe maybe Jeff Afflee,
I don't know, bought that from from some Coats that
he had worked for before and used it in the

(47:26):
meeting and Matt liked it.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
But I've never heard him say I'm glad Wayne yep,
because I had never heard that. I love I love
the way he paints the perfect picture strained, the strain.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
Of the strain of football. Yeah, and the game is
a strain. It's a strain. I mean, that's that best
describes football really does. I wonder if Shanahan said that
to somebody and and they'll.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
Maybe maybe yeah, yeah, or maybe maybe even Peyton. You know,
Sean Payton's good with that stuff. He's he's terrific, h
like Matt is. But but Sean has been at it
for so long that I wonder if he may have
used that turn out in Denver. But he sure he
clearly got that from somebody. And I'm gonna keep track
this year of how many NFL coaches you use that seems.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
Hey, Kevin's as we kind of wind down here with you,
and we appreciate your time so much. This has been
so much fun for Matt and I to visit with
you on all these different topics. Give us your thumbnail.
As you get ready for the season. What do you
see in the NFL coming up this year?

Speaker 1 (48:26):
I think the division the Packers are in with the
Lions and what they accomplished and where I think they're
still added and and improved Chicago team that that that
those three teams including Green Bay. Uh, it's gonna be
survival of the fittest, right That division is going to
be so difficult and you got eight, you get all

(48:46):
those games in the division and even even the Vikings
they've they've still got talent and that's a tough place
to win, and they're not. And when you in the division,
you know your opponents. So clearly, right, Philadelphia is gonna
be interesting with new coordinator. You'll see them down in
Brazil Wayna here in a couple days, and that's gonna
be That'll be a terrific look at where they are

(49:08):
with Hurts. But to me, it's so overloaded now quarterback
play in the AFC that any of those teams Buffalo, Cincinnati,
Kansas City, the Chargers, Baltimore, Houston, like they're all so strong.
I mean, my goodness, it's going to be a dogfight
in the AFC, and mainly because they've got so many

(49:28):
headline making quarterbacks that are so terrific. The Chiefs are
chasing history.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
If ever there's a team that could actually reach it,
are they the one?

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Well, they seem to be going for three in a
row like like you allude to. And they got the quarterback,
they've got the coach, and they did not sit pat
this past offseason. They tried to improve, they added bodies,
They've reworked a little bit of their offense. They're trying
to evolve, as Andy has told us so often. Former
Packer tight end or offensive line coach to Andy Reid, and

(50:02):
I just think that they continue to be motivated as
they chase history. I thought last year would be difficult.
I think this year they're energized by the chance to
do something that no one has ever done. One three
in a row. They've been four of the last five
Super Bowls. I mean, this is a many dynasty or
a dynastic team to begin with, and now they've got

(50:23):
some history in front of them, and I could just
see them, if the distractions aren't too numerous, them making
another strong run, and they would seem to me to
be the team to beat. Certainly.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
I agree with to Kevin. You know the thing about
the Super Bowl, though, in the playoff right of the NFL,
it is so hard to pull off because you know,
you go back when the Lombardi Packers won three championships
in a row. One of them was not a Super Bowl,
but they won three in a row. You talk about
sixteen team NFL, and then you had the AFL that
you didn't see and you only had to worry about

(50:56):
one team. There the team you faced in the Super Bowl.
This is a wholly different endeavor now in the NFL
with thirty two teams. And I find also, guys, I
think a lot of the run to a championship is mystical.
I don't think it's physical. I don't think it's coaching.
I don't think it's players. You have to be good

(51:17):
in all those areas just to be in the picture.
But I think in the end, the bounce of the ball,
the luck of the injuries, all that stuff come into play,
and it is not easy to get back there. That
The thing that we as layman I think struggle and
most fans struggle to deal with is this. You can't
you know, the Chiefs don't get to start back at

(51:38):
the Super Bowl. We all think they do well. Most
of their roster is back, Mahomes is back, Andy Reid's back. Well, sure,
so they're starting a super Bowl level. No, No, there's
a whole process here, and you start way back at
the bottom, and there's no guarantee you'll ever get back
to where you were, none whatsoever. The greatest team I
was ever around the eighty five Bears. They were the
best team I will single see I've ever seen. They

(52:01):
made one Super Bowl and that was it. They never
got back to the Super Bowl, that group of players.
And that's back before free agency, before you lost twenty
five percent or thirty percent of your roster. Just threw
a trich attrition and that type of thing. But so
this is really a hard task. Personally, I'm kind of

(52:22):
I'm looking forward to watching them play. I thought last
year they got by on their defense. I thought they
were kind of shot. And you know that that loss
to the Raiders in Kansas City on Christmas Day, everybody
kind of left them for dead, and they found something
down the stretch. They caught fire in a bottle. Super
Bowl teams are not super early in the season. Sometimes
they're not super untill very late in the season. And

(52:44):
that team became super very late in the season. And
I just think there's an evolution here. I think there's
a lot of mystical things that have to come together
for you to win that Super Bowl. Now Belichick and
Brady and now Mahomes and Reed are kind of dispelling
some of them with their repeat performances. But nonetheless, a
third in a row, this is gonna be tough.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
I agree, it'll be worth watching. But boy, there's so
much quarterback town that AFC it is. It is really popping.
I have to go. Do you remember the sports reporters
on ESPN YO. Yeah, Jeremy Shapp his dad Dick Shep
used to host it, wrote instant replay with Jerry Kramer.
They're they're kicking up the sports reporters again, and I

(53:27):
am on with those guys in about thirty seconds.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
Well, we'll let you go. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
I had to give a little bit of a reason,
and that that is Marie. I'm so sorry. Kevin, thank
you guys, forever forever, my gosh, thank you. How fun
to be on. I admire you both so much. Some
day can we get Brian on here too? Brian Anderson, absolutely,
and the four of us can visit because I read
well great, I would love to sit and listen.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
We'll do that.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
We'll do that, well, can we please? I would love
that absolutely?

Speaker 2 (53:57):
All right, Kevin, thank.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
You, thank you, my honor to be on. Thank you, guys.
What a privilege. Thank you so much, thank you, thank you.
UW your credit Union is Mobile.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
Banking offers a simple wad aid to check accounts make
transfers and ward Now that's a smart play from the pocket.
Join at u w CU dot org ensured by nc
U A. Always fun to catch up with with Kevin Harlan.
We had in the weeds a little bit, but I
think that that's fun. I mean, I got I learned
something just listening to you guys talk about your techniques

(54:32):
and how you go about your business and how you
evaluate yourself. From both of you during the course of
the summer, it was it's always enjoyable.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
Well, you know, I got to tell you now, you
can't steal any of our stuff, man, you have to
get your own.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
Well, I've stolen all of it.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
I've taken taken very very diligent notes here.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
Yeah, we all have. But no, it's great to have
Kevin on and uh, you know, like I said, I've
known him since he was a KU in his junior
year at Kansas and and we have a long relationship
with his family and his dad, Bob and mom and
all and just they're great people, they really are, and
it's great to see Kevin have the kind of success

(55:11):
he's having. So special thanks for our guest, Kevin Harland
of CBS Sports and t and t our producer engineer
Dave McCann, our executive producer Jeff Tyler. For Matt, this
is Wayne, thank you for listening to the Lay of
viel Pay podcast.

Speaker 4 (55:27):
The Laravian La Pay podcast is a production of iHeartRadio
Podcasts with hosts Wayne Larvy and Matt Lapey, with production
engineering by Dave McCann. The Lrea VI and La Pey
podcast is presented by UW Credit Union. Here for every
you listen to other episodes available on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.