Rich Podolsky on How Madden and Summerall Changed NFL Broadcasting, Plus Packers and Badgers Discussion

Wayne and Matt catch up with author Rich Podolsky to talk about his book Madden and Summerall: How They Revolutionized NFL Broadcasting. They also dive into Badgers football & basketball and share their thoughts on the Packers.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's a great story about he almost getting a summer
all on Brookshire late for an NFC Championship game in
Tampa because they were two loaded from Bloody Mary's at
brunch and cook find his car. When somebody asks asked
Brendel after they were looking in the parking lot for

(00:22):
our half hour for the car, what kind of a
car was it? Brendle said, it's a hurtz.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
This is the Larovian La Pey Podcast, a production of
iHeartRadio Podcasts with hosts Wayne Larvy, the voice of the
Green Bay Packers, and Matt Lapey, the voice of Wisconsin
Badgers football and men's basketball. The Laravian La Pey Podcast
is presented by Potawatamie Casino Hotel.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
Your win is waiting. Hi everybody, I'm Wayne Laravie and
I'm Matt Lapey. Welcome to the Lerovie La Pey Podcast,
present by Patawana Me Casino Hotel. Coming up on this episode,
we welcome author Rich Podowski to the Lara Vi La
pay Podcast. His latest book is entitled Madden and Summer
All How They Revolutionized NFL Broadcasting. Meanwhile, the Badgers football

(01:15):
team snapped their losing Streagle to win over Washington at
Camp Randall Stadium on Saturday. The Packers Monday Night game
was as entertaining as ten to seven could be. Let's
put it that way. Two great defenses going at it,
but the offense for the Packers just wasn't able to
make this one happen. So we'll dive into all that.

(01:36):
Coming up on the Lara Vie La Pey Podcast, we
welcome in Rich Podowski, the author of Madden and Summer
all how they revolutionized NFL broadcasting. Rich, welcome back to
the Lara vi La Pey Podcast. When last we talked,
your book, You Are Looking Live was the story of
the CBS pregame show from that era. Brett Musburger, Phillis,

(01:59):
George or Across, Jimmy the Greek Snyder. Just great, great
book on the inner workings of that crew. For this one,
you head out into the field to the play by
play broadcast booth with this book. What did you find
out about these guys that you didn't know?

Speaker 1 (02:16):
That's a great question, Wayne, I didn't know that when
they offered John Madden the Miller like commercial, it was
because they offered it first to Al Davis, who didn't
want to do it, and he suggested that they go
to John because they had a whole bunch of retired

(02:37):
football players and they said, John just retired. Al said,
and why didn't you offer it to him? So they
did offer it to him to John, who had this
great personality on the sideline, screaming at the refs, and
he said, well, let me talk it over with my family.
And you know, he had on nothing really going for

(03:00):
him at the time, and he sits down with his
two sons and his wife Virginia, and he says, well,
why should I do this. I don't even drink beer
hardly at all. That's what I didn't know that John
wasn't a beer drinker at all. And he gets this
commercial and he comes bursting through the wall and the

(03:21):
commercial and America falls in love with him, those who
weren't football fans already. So that was really the key
to John getting the number one job at CBS, and
those commercials started in the middle of nineteen eighty. That

(03:41):
was John's second season with CBS as a broadcaster. As
you know from reading the book that in the very
first chapter, in his first year as a broadcaster in
seventy nine, he almost got fired. He wasn't good at
all in the beginning. He didn't know how to become
an analyst. He didn't know what to do with nobody

(04:03):
at CBS was helping him. So it was a situation
where he had to train himself and watch the tapes
and he wasn't getting any help from the CBS producers
because they kept putting him with a different producer, a
different director, and a different partner for all four of

(04:24):
his games that first season, And finally he started to
get a little bit better and a little bit better,
and in his fourth game, he was oddly paired with
Pat Summerle, who was the number one play by play
guy at the time, and his partner, Tom Brookshire, was
off that Sunday. It was the Sunday after Thanksgiving. Tom's

(04:47):
daughter was coming out and one of those coming out
parties in Philadelphia on the main Line, and Summervill needed
a partner. And when he got fixed up with John,
so to speak, it was a game at Tampa and
they put him out on a ledge at the top

(05:10):
of the stadium to do the pregame introductions, and John,
who was claustrophobic, was sweating bullets and some are all
was thinking to himself, this guy sweating through his shirt
and his jacket and his forehead, and he's never going
to make it in TV. And finally, when they got

(05:32):
to a commercial, Madden explained to him that he was claustrophobic,
and some are all. I was just a great professional
and really saved John's rear ran from then on and
kept him under wraps and made sure he didn't have
to do anything like that for the rest of the

(05:52):
Gate summer. All thought Madden shared promise. I watched that tape.
John wasn't anywhere near the John Madden that he grew
to become with the sound effects or anything like that.
But it was the first time they had ever met,
and that was the end of his first season, and

(06:13):
it wasn't enough to get him to be invited back.

Speaker 4 (06:17):
You mentioned that the lack of tutoring, if that's the
right word, which is a pretty common complaint, it seems
like to me in the television world. But you do
mention in the book that Gary Bender, who is a
name that people in our state certainly recognize. Gary Bender,
helped him out quite a bit, though, didn't he What
kind of advice did he get.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
That was the second season. Gary just calmed him down,
you know. And what happened was at the end of
that first season, CBS had the Super Bowl and they
had a big luncheon at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel with
five hundred people, media people, advertisers, and it was like

(07:01):
two or three days before the game itself, and they
had a dais with Brent Musberger as the main host
at one end of the day is Pete Roselle at
the other end, and in between they had three Super
Bowl coaches who were working for CBS at the time,
George Allen, Hankstram, and John and somebody in the audience

(07:25):
asked a question, would any of you guys go back
to coaching? And George Allen kind of hampden hawd and
really didn't answer the question. Hankstram, who was the number
two part of the number two team Vince Scully, said
how much he loved it at CBS, and he wouldn't

(07:46):
do it. And then it was Maddenstern and instead of
just sitting there and giving him an answer, because he
didn't know whether he was going to be invited back,
he got up from his seat. He walked down the
row of the dais, he stood behind Pete Roselle. He
took his hand and he squeezed Pete Roselle's shoulder and

(08:06):
he said, you know, people ask me all the time
what I think about NFL officiating. And it cracked up
the whole place. Five hundred people started laughing. And then
John goes into this five minute routine about officials and
how they screw up a call when it's fourth in
inches and what it does to a coach's brain. And

(08:31):
he had the entire audience in the palm of his hand,
and all of a sudden, the CBS executives came to
the conclusion that we better give this guy another year
because we haven't let that part of his personality come
out in the broadcasts. And that's how he got invited back,
and that's how he got paired with Gary Bender the

(08:53):
second year. They gave him the same play by play guy,
the same producer, in the same director for all of
his games the second year. And at that time CBS
had a new president, Van Gordon Sawder, who had seen
the Miller like commercials and fell in love with John

(09:14):
from them. And what happened was he hired Terry O'Neil
from ABC to run NFL production for CBS. And when
Terry got there, Terry was only thirty one years old,
but he was a genius. And when he got there,
he asked saorder how he came to the conclusion that

(09:37):
John should be the number one analyst. He said, he
hasn't even had a game. That's going back to New York.
How did you decide? Did you watch some of his games?
And sort of said no, no, no, no, no, no, I
haven't seen any of his games on tape. And finally
he admitted it was the Miller like commercials that he
fell in love with John.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
You know, Rich Podowski, the author of madd mid Summer Off,
How they revolutionized NFL broadcasting, is our guest on the
lay review of the pay podcast. Rich. I'm so glad
you told that story because that really stood out to me.
That cocktail party where John Mann all of a sudden,
this is where his personality emerged and the CBS guys,
and it's so like our business decisions are made not

(10:19):
based on talent necessarily. Greg Kelser once told me this.
The great Guard of Magic, Johnson of Michigan State. We
were working together, and he said, Wayne, this is one
of the few businesses where talent doesn't matter. Who you know,
timing and how they perceive you sometimes off the air
makes all the difference of the world. And that story

(10:40):
just rings home for me.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, it's true. Yeah, And what made it even more
possible is that Ban Soder, the new president of CBS,
he wasn't even a sports fan.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
He was brought in at the last minute because they
had to get rid of the guy who had the
who couldn't hold his liquor. So I'm not going to
mention any names now, but it's in the book and
what he did to get the boot. But Soda came in,
and Soda knew television and he knew talent, but he

(11:17):
didn't know sports, and he relied on his executives. And
he wanted Vince Scully to be the play by play guy,
to be a Madden's partner. And when Terry O'Neill, the
guy he hired to run the NFL for CBS, wanted
Pat summer All and they came to an understanding. And

(11:41):
the understanding was the chapter I called the Contest. The
first four weeks of the nineteen eighty one season, Scully
would work with Madden. The second four weeks summer all
would work for Madden. And then on the Monday following
that Monday, October twenty sixth, nineteen eighty one, all the
CBS sports executives with Soorder would meet in the CBS

(12:05):
boardroom for lunch and vote on who should be the
play by play guy. And it was so important to
choose that person because CBS had the Super Bowl that
year in eighty one, and that was a Super Bowl sixteen.
And they got together and they all voted for some

(12:25):
are All except for Soorder, who still liked Scully and
wanted Scully. And O'Neil was smart enough to know that
Scully liked to talk all the time he worked all
those baseball games without annihilis. Madden liked to talk and
tell his stories, and O'Neill said the viewer would be

(12:45):
wrung out by halftime.

Speaker 4 (12:48):
Well, in a business, and there are a lot of
good people, great people in broadcasting, but we all know
there's a lot of ego too, especially at the network level.
Would it be fair to say that some are All's
lack of an ego help make this click where he
was okay, being the minimalist, well, John Madden was obviously
perfectly suited to be the more bombastic still tell you stuff,

(13:11):
but really entertain the viewer as well.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Some Are All was just a great, great, perfect partner
for Madden because he was willing to give himself up.
He was willing he could have added so much more
to a broadcast, but he recognized what he had captured
and having a partner like John Madden and what Madden
could mean for a broadcast with his personality and with

(13:39):
he knew what he knew. You know, Madden could capture
a player's mannerisms, his nicknames, his habits, and at the
same time, while he's doing that on a broadcast, he
could coach both teams simultaneously better than they were being
coached on the field. But getting back to Summer All,

(14:00):
Some Are All learned his minimalistic style from Ray Scott,
another Wisconsin broadcaster. Ray Scott was CBS's number one play
by play guy in the sixties, and he in fact
broadcast the first Super Bowl for CBS and wound up

(14:23):
leaving the network over a dispute over wearing the new
IFB equipment that he refused to wear. The IFB allowed
the producers and directors to give instructions to their announcers,
so Ray Scott was going, some are All moved over

(14:43):
to play by play. When the president of CBS in
nineteen seventy four, a gun named Bob Wessler, who invented
the NFL Today Show as we know it, called some
are All to have lunch with him and said, I
got bad news for you. I'm going to take you
off the number one team. He was the analyst with

(15:04):
Jack Buckets to play by play guy that year, and
he said the reason is, you guys sound too much alike.
And somer All said, well, if you're going to do that,
I'd like to try play by play. And he said,
who are you going to? Who do you want to
work with? You have any idea? And he said, I
work with this guy, Tom Brookshire are weekends in Philadelphia
doing NFL films highlights. I'd like to work with him.

(15:26):
And three days later they worked the first game together
and they were the number one team for the next
six and a half years.

Speaker 3 (15:33):
Yeah, exactly. And they really had a chemistry about them,
because you're right, Rich Before there was Summer Ale and Madden,
there was Somemmer All in Brookshire and they, as you mentioned,
for six years. The thing, they were really compatible. They
were really good friends. They partied too hard obviously, as

(15:54):
you pointed out very well in the book, very eloquently,
but that chemistry that they had was pretty special too,
and that's kind of gotten lost in the Summer All
and Madden persona that would take place in the next
twenty years.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, Brookshire and Summer All, they just loved each other.
They love being together. They loved hanging out, going to the bars,
going to restaurants. As Summer All pointed out, from the
time we left on Thursday, we started our first margaritas

(16:30):
together on the way to the game, and we didn't
stop until we got back on Tuesday. We didn't stop drinking.
And they got in a lot of bar arguments, let's
call them arguments. Brookshire started most of them. Some of
them are detailed historically in the book. By the way,

(16:53):
and the trouble they got into, let me put it
this way. On the games, they were fine, They held
their liquor. You can never tell that they were drinking
the whole weekend or getting in fights. The night before.
Summer All said, people had to tell them what happened

(17:14):
the night before because he couldn't remember any of it.
But the stories got back to Van sort Er at
CBS and he decided to split them up in nineteen eighty.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
Those and even going back to the sixties though Rich,
it wasn't uncommon if it was executives, broadcast executives or
executives period. I mean, there's a reason why there's the
old line that three martine lunch, right. I mean, now,
they took it to excess, as has been well documented,
but it wasn't uncommon. I mean, cocktails were just a

(17:49):
part of it, right for everybody, no matter what level
of management you were a part.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Of it was the Madman days, Yeah, and summer all
became buddies with had a CBS Sports in the sixties.
He got hired in sixty two. God I can't think
of his name who was running it, but he liked
to drink too, and they used to go to twenty

(18:13):
one for lunch. They used to go to famous restaurants
with celebrities down the street from CBS and there were
two and three more teenis, you know. And there was
a famous pr man at CBS named Bill Brendle, and
Bill Brendle one time said to the waiter at who

(18:36):
was giving him his bill at lunch at the Rose
restaurant next to CBS, he said, date this for tomorrow
because I used up today last night. And he was
talking about on his credit card expense account. He was
always way ahead. And Brendle just was one of the

(19:01):
most hysterical guys who worked at CBS. And there's a
great story about he almost getting Summer all on Brookshire
late for an NFC Championship game in Tampa because they
were two load different Bloody Mary's at brunch and couldn't
find his car. When somebody asked, asked Brendle after they

(19:26):
were looking in the parking lot for a half hour
for the car, what kind of a car was it.
Brundle said, it's a Hurtz.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
That's sure. Help of the search. Oh my gosh, you know,
it's amazing, okay. And I met Pat Summer on a
number of occasions. What a gracious individual, what a good
guy that he was, and we talked about the fact
that he also was giving and he gave of himself
in these broadcasts. I think it goes back to his

(19:58):
you know, probably his playing days team sports. I mean,
there's a lot of giving going on there. But Rich Podolski,
what did some are All and Madden come together? From
a social standpoint? They're not nearly the fit of Summer
All in Brookshire, So how did the chemistry evolve when
they hit the airwaves?

Speaker 1 (20:19):
I think, you know, there's just so much respect for
each other. Some are all in it. As you mentioned,
he was a great athlete. He played five sports in
high school and he was people don't know and I
brought out in the book he was one of the
five best tennis players in the country under the age

(20:41):
of eighteen. Back in nineteen forty six, he beat a
guy at the Florida Junior Championships who four years later
played for the national championship at far Pars Health. But
somemrra Aw was a renaissance guy in the broadcasting world.
He started out as a morning man doing radio shows

(21:08):
for WCBS radio, weather, news, celebrity interviews, that kind of stuff.
And only because they went to all news all the
time did he even try to go over to the
TV side, and he became the analyst for Giants games.
In nineteen sixty two, CBS had two sets of announcers

(21:31):
for each game. One set did the game back to
the visiting team and one set back to the home team.
Summer Will work with Chris Shankle back to the home team,
and the Giants fans got to know him that way.
He had been a Giants, a famous Giants player, a
kicker who helped get him to the greatest game ever

(21:54):
played in the nineteen fifty eight Championship game by kicking
a great fifty yard field goal. But anyhow, summer All
did it all. He went from the field to the
analysts side, to the he was the first guy to
go to the play by play side, and then he
gets fitted with Madden after he had been the number

(22:14):
one guy for almost seven years and he didn't want
to give up the job. He wasn't happy about being
in this contest against Vince Scully, and for the first
time in twenty years, he got himself an agent, and
then the agent advised him to say, if I don't
get the number one job, I'm going to NBC. And

(22:35):
while they were trying to decide that, in the month
of October that year, where it comes out that somemmrll
is considering running for the Senate on the Republican side
in the state of Florida. So CBS had a lot
to think about. But Somerole really gave himself of himself
when he went to work with Madden. To get back

(22:59):
to your original question, they didn't socialize away from the games.
They were the greatest when the red light went on,
but they want their separate, separate ways. Madden liked to
hang out with the kids, the young guys that they
hired out of college, and some are all like to
go and have dinner with the executives from the other

(23:19):
teams or the NFL executives and have stake and martiniz
when they went on these weekend atings. There's a quick
story when they came to Washington, d c. For a game.
Madden gets to the hotel to check in and there's
a note for him. It's from Ethel Kennedy, who is

(23:43):
the widow of RFK, the brother the late JFK, the
President of the United States, and the letter and they
notes that John, we're huge fans of yours. We'd love
to have lunch and dinner with you this weekend while
you're here for the game. One of these young kids
came by the name of Mike Arnold, who is now
CBS's number one director, says he looks up at John says, geez, John,

(24:08):
are you gonna have dinner with Ethel Kennedy and John
who's about a foot tower the Mike Arnold looks down
at him and says, Nah, I'm gonna have Mexican food
with you guys. That's who John Madden was. Yeah, he
didn't want to go out and have Martiniz with the executives.
He wanted to hang out with the kids. And John Robinson,

(24:32):
his best friend as a former coach, used to complain
that John Madden didn't like to go to any restaurant
that had a tablecloth.

Speaker 4 (24:45):
Well, you touch out in the book too. He grew
to respect the industry, right, because Madden didn't really have
much respect for those who were in it until he
got in the industry.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Correct, You're absolutely right. He didn't think much of announcers
at all. In fact, he hated Howard Cosell and he
thought his opinion of most of the NFL announcers where
they didn't do their homework, they made mistakes, and they

(25:19):
didn't know the rules of the game, and when first
offered a job. Barry Frank came to him, the famous
agent at IMG, and said, you know, CBS wants to
hire you for four or five games. We could get
a nice guarantee. And he said, I don't know, I

(25:39):
don't think so. Maybe in a few years. And Barry
Frank wisely said to him, you know, John, in a
few years they may not want you. And he thought
about that, and he thought about what he had said
to some of the young players who thought about quitting
it in training camp and said, you know, once you quit,

(26:02):
it's really hard to get back. And he said, okay,
I'll try it. I'll give it a try. And that's
Howie he started his first year. But he really didn't
have any respect at all four announcers until really he
got with Gary Bender and then the great Pat Summer.
I spoke with Gary Bender for the book. Gary was

(26:24):
fabulous and he still sounds like the guy I knew
forty years ago.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
Yeah, you know, Gary Bender one of the best. He
worked a little bit in this state with Packers Man.
I want to say back in the early seventies he
did play by play following you know, the sixties. I
want to say he was seventies seventy one seventy two.
Then he went to CBS and just a great broadcaster,

(26:49):
you know, guys like him and Frank lieber Rich. They
were so much a part of CBS and the play
by playing love it. They had Ray Scott and you
mentioned Jack buck and and just some really splendid play
by play guys, and Summer all evolves as a play
by play guy after being an analyst. He was a
sideline guy. He was, you know, an analyst, and then

(27:12):
evolved into a play by play guy. And you know,
I really think that that was rare in those days
for a player to become a play by play guy.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Absolutely, yeah, I think he was the first for that
to happen, you know. And I think one of the
reasons was that he felt like he didn't have to
criticize as a play by play guy. He'd leave that
to the analysts. In fact, there was an executive at
CBS in the early days of his days as an

(27:45):
analyst who wanted to get rid of him because he
wouldn't criticize anybody for no matter how bad the play
was or the coaching decision was. He didn't like criticizing anyone.
So yeah, I think that was part of it, and
it became easy for him to slide into the play

(28:08):
by play chair because he felt like he didn't have
to come up with anything clever to say, and he
was great at leading Johnny and especially his little ways
to get John out of trouble when John was going
too far.

Speaker 4 (28:25):
My question for both of you, could Pete Pat summer Ale,
could that style with everything he did football, golf, tennis,
even the NBA for a time. Could that style work today?
I'd like to think it could.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
Well, there's a guy at NBC who is doing all that,
but I don't think it's nearly as good. He does the.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
Sunday night game, Mike Jerrico, Mike.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Arrica, Yeah, he does a Sunday night game. He did
their their golf, and I think he does just about
everything the Olympics or he's there everything guy, and he's
quite adequate, But I don't think he's anywhere near what
Summer summerw was, for sure the face of CBS when

(29:17):
the audience was ten times as large, when there were
only three networks.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
Potawataby Casino, Hotel, Your win is waiting. Rich Podolski, our
guest on the Larra Villa Pey podcast. His latest book
is entitled Madden and Summer All, How they Revolutionized NFL
Broadcasting Rich getting back to Matt's question, I think it's
a valid one because today it seems to me that

(29:44):
they want television play by play guys when the play
really hits a crescendo, to be like a radio guy
in description and in terms of valume.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
I was.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
When I came up through the ranks in television, I
was always told this is a cool medium, this is different,
this is a And I did radio on Sundays and
TV on Saturdays on football for a long time, and
that was what I always had to remind myself. Yeah,
they can see what yard line the ball is on.
They can see this, that and the other thing. And
it was a great challenge just to try to frame

(30:17):
what people can see and maybe add something to enhance
their vision. But on radio, you're describing the play, your energy,
the way you call the play, all of that stuff
comes into play, whereas in television it was always a
cooler medium, but today that seems to have changed. And
Matt's question is interesting because would Summer All be successful

(30:38):
today with that low key, understated minimalist play by play
based on what you've seen on the air now, because
I think it's a lot of noise on the air
right now.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
I think Joe Buck comes as close as possible to that.
I can't remember a single time Joe Buck screamed yeah
and I agree. You know, and the team of Joe
Buck and Troy Aikman, I was honored to have them
write the forwards for the book. They each told great
stories about a Madden in Summer aw. I think they're

(31:13):
as close as you come today to the Madden and
Summer All Team, and they've been twenty three years, if
you don't mind, I wanted to tell a quick story
about Gary Bender.

Speaker 3 (31:27):
Gary.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
I tell the story in the book. Gary had been
trying to get to the network, sending tapes to the
executives at CBS and NBC. He was doing the Big
ten Game of the week and nobody ever got back
to him. And then Bob Wessler, the president CBS, is

(31:50):
having lunch with an agent at a deli near CBS
and at the end of the lunch he said, oh,
by the way, Jack Buck told he's going to go
to NBC. We need a new play by play guide
do you know anyone? And the guy from the next
table gets up and says, Uh, you don't really know me,

(32:11):
but I overheard your conversation and I like to suggest
Gary Bender. He does the Big ten Game of the Week.
And the guy says, who are you? And he said,
I'm so and so I worked for TVs Network and
we do the Big ten Game of the Week and
Gary Bender's great in case you don't know, and they
wound up hiring him because of this lunch. Lunch that's

(32:34):
away saying Gary, here's Gary trying for years to try
to get his tapes seen over it the networks, and
it's it's really who you know. You're absolutely right.

Speaker 4 (32:45):
No, I think it's it is a great story. And
if you're he's a I never I never got to
know Gary. But when you do, like everybody speaks so
highly of him as a person, that doesn't hurt to be.
It's fun for me just to hear these names iconic
names in the industry. Obviously Madden in Summer aw but
Tom Brookshire, Vince Gully, Joe Buck. I mean, what an

(33:07):
incredible era of broadcasting that was Rich. You bring up
a great point too, that was back when we didn't
have four hundred different options of what platform I mean
for me. For me, it was great fun. But how
let's summarize this a little bit here the difference in
personalities between Brookshire and Madden. It couldn't be more opposite,

(33:31):
could it? Between the two and their approach to how
they prepare for a game.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, Tom was one of the Tom Brookshire was one
of those guys that everybody loved who work with him.
He was a great storyteller. He had everybody in hysterics.
He loved to go out and party, and nobody at
CBS who was a part of the entourage, including myself

(33:59):
some of those times, had ever had the nerve to say, Tom,
you've had one too many. You know it's time to
get to work. Tom didn't do a lot of research.
Tom didn't like to go and talk to the players
and the coaches before the game. And Madden started that
that whole thing. I mean, that's part of the revolution
of the broadcasting. Before Madden came to CBS, before he

(34:25):
came to television, what a producer and the director would
do is they take the play by play guy and
the analyst. They'd meet with the two pr guys from
the two teams. A day or two before the game,
the pr guys would tell them who was hurt, who
wasn't going to play. They give him the three deep roster,
and they give him how to pronounce the tough names

(34:47):
of the players, and that was it. That was the
pregame meeting. Madden gets there, he arrives two three days early.
He starts going to practices on his own because he
was taking the train. He wouldn't fly anymore from the claustrophobia.
And he starts talking to the coaches about strategy. And

(35:09):
then Terry O'Neil gets involved, gets permission from the NFL
because he and men wanted to talk to the players too.
They talked to the they interviewed the star players and
the coaches. They taped them before the game, they find
out the strategy. Then the night before the game, O'Neil
and man the whold teaching with the crew and the

(35:33):
camera guys, and they showed them the plays to expect
during the game. So you know, if you were going
to have a test and you knew all the questions
ahead of time, you do much better. Also, so they
wound up with the best broadcasts the best preparation, and
my god, the level of the broadcast went way up

(35:56):
and so did the audience.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
Yeah, and you know, I think it had an industry
wide impact, as you point out in the book So
Well Rich, that preparation that Madden brought, that taught everybody
how to really prepare for a game, and many of
us still use the same techniques. Now you're looking at
tape and that kind of thing, knowing what's going on.

(36:19):
Last question from me, the Madden Cruiser, that whole thing.
How did they pull that off? Because that became a
big story and a big commercial story as well.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Well, John was going to all these games by train,
you know, and when they had to go to Dallas,
Amtrak didn't go any further south than Meridian, Mississippi, and
then they had to get a car and driver and
drive ten hours to get to Dallas from there, So
that didn't work that well. Plus it took a lot

(36:51):
longer to go a cross country and Amtrak often was
a day late doing that, and it wasn't the most
economical way to do things. And then one Madden started
becoming really popular, especially after he did Saturday Night Live,

(37:13):
and they decided to book him to do a pool
billiard event with Minnesota Facts up in Minnesota, and they
had to find a way to get him from the
game to the billiard thing and then back to the
next game in time. And Terry O'Neill found a way
to rent Dolly Parton's bus for the week. And once

(37:38):
Madden got on that bus, he said to his team
of helpers, this is the way to go, and we
got to do that. We got to get one of these. Yeah,
And you know, and somebody did an article and the
word got out and the head of the Greyhound bus

(37:59):
line come and he read it and he contacted John's
agents and said, you know, we like to make a
deal with him. And the deal was they gave him
his own bus, had it custom made the way he
wanted it, and in exchange, when he got to some
of the places that they were going for games, he

(38:22):
would meet at the Greyhound stations and give twenty minute
talks to the Greyhound workers. So they were like pep
talks and little stories. And he did that for several years. Wow,
he he loved meeting people anyhow.

Speaker 3 (38:40):
Oh wow, that's a great, great story, great story.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yeah. John was really quite an interesting guy and he
wound up. Although they weren't close friends away from the
broadcast booth, he wound up loving Pat summer All. On
Pat's funeral, John said, there were voices before Pat Summerles,

(39:05):
and there were voices after, but Pats was the voice
of the NFL, and when you heard that voice at
one o'clock Eastern time, you know it was going to
be a.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
Big game, no doubt, no doubt. Rich. I want to
thank you so much for taking time out with us.
Good luck with the book. It's a great read. You
know Madden in summer All and how they revolutionized the
NFL broadcasting they really did. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
You have it? Can you show the cover?

Speaker 3 (39:36):
Yeah, I've got it in the I've got in my
bedroom actually, but yeah, there it is.

Speaker 4 (39:42):
He's got it.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yeah, you got it.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
Go That's what you look for when you go to Amazon.

Speaker 5 (39:47):
Yep, the guys here. You rand you so much. The Layer,
VI and Lapay Podcast is presented by Potawatamy Casingo Hotel.
Your win is waiting the Badgers a big ten game.
We last week, then way finally and beat a rank
team for the first time in four years. It was
it was made for good cinema for the social media

(40:09):
folks at wisconstant because he had the snowfallen an old
school defensive game, maybe an ode to the Big ten West,
as some people would put it. Not a lot of offense,
but a thirteen to ten win for Wisconsin and man,
the timing of.

Speaker 4 (40:24):
It was terrific. It was very therapeutic. I reused the
old line at Barry Alvarez brought out years ago after
a big win, said winning is good for the soul,
and for that program, it was great for the soul
wayan A lot went on last week with the announcement
that Luke Fickle would return in twenty twenty six, which

(40:46):
was not met with great enthusiasm for much of the
fan base. Can't cannot have my head in the sand
on that, but to see the guys out there play
as hard as they did. They're extremely limited offensively, but
man defensive, and they've been doing this here for the
last couple of ball games against good teams. Were flying around.
Veterans were making plays, true freshmen were making plays. It

(41:11):
was it was good to see those guys smile because
it's been more than a calendar year since they won
a conference game.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
Just to watch the joy on the field. I mean,
the fans storm the field. I don't care that. I
understand where they are folks. Some people scoff at that,
but it just showed you the joy that's there and
the support this program has. You know, hey, listen, the
Badgers lost another quarterback right in that game and still

(41:40):
were able to beat number twenty four Washington, and I
just thought it was great. You're exactly right the Barry
Alvarez line. Appropriate winning is great for the soul. But
last week you mentioned a lot of things going on,
and one of the big things was Chris McIntosh came
out and said Luke Fickle will return and coach this program.
A lot of people scoffed at that. I among others,

(42:03):
did not because here's the thing in mind. Now you
could correct me if I'm wrong, but they hired Luke
Fickel what about three or four years ago, all right,
it was at the time hailed as one of the
great hires here. Luke Fickel had led Cincinnati to the
National Championship tournament. You know, for him to come to
Wisconsin with all its history and resource, you would think

(42:26):
that'd be great. And this is going to be a
great hire. It kind of didn't work out quite that way.
But every year he's been in this job, Matt, I
think the landscape has changed year to year to year.
I mean, we're still evolving in college football, and you know,
the athletic director said, hey, listen, we got to support

(42:47):
the program better with more resources, and we'll see if
that makes a difference. But from your perspective, Luke Fickel
and his staff and they're recruiting, and I know they've
got to do a better job in which the state
of Wisconsin, but I mean the way recruiting is today,
everything has changed so much. I just think, you know,

(43:08):
they decided that, hey, this was a good hire. Now
the landscape has changed, and you know a lot of
that is beyond his control, so we've got to make
the adjustment.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
Yeah, it is a it's interesting way because I've heard
some college coaches, not just in football, what other sports, say,
why do we even call it recruiting. It's almost like
you're identified, identifying, your evaluating, and then acquiring because there's
such a business component. I still use the word recruiting.
I know Luke Fickle will as well. He's talked and

(43:42):
he mentioned this to me back in the summer about
how they need to try to find more players where
the w of Wisconsin means something means a lot, and
that certainly can mean recruiting more inside out depending on
how many Division one players are available in your state
in a given year. And here it does. Watch you wait,

(44:04):
But I also I know that fans and I would
probably be included in that, or not. Probably I would
be included in that. You'd love to see more of
Wisconsin kids come into the program. But there is the
business component, you know, can you develop Wisconsin has been
a developmental program that's been the lifeblood of it ever

(44:25):
since Barry Alvarez, right, for sure? Can you do that now?
If someone isn't cracking the lineup after a couple of years,
does that player move on somewhere else where he knows
he can play, or does he ride it out to
continue to get better within within the Wisconsin program. The
Badgers through the years have had a number of players

(44:46):
who have had to really wait their turn, and it
isn't until the second half of their college career where
they get in there and get a lot of snaps.
So can you get those kind of guys I'd like
to think he could get some, maybe not as many
as you use to, but you know, obviously there's been
a lot of angst, a lot of anger with some

(45:07):
maybe apathy has set in because this program has not
been very good for the last few years. But I
do think wayne alignment is always important and it's never
been more important in my opinion than it is now,
and not just with coach and athletic director, coach, athletic director,
university chancellor or university president. We call them chancellors here

(45:30):
Chancellor Jennifer Minukin And I don't think it's any great secret,
even though there is a very frustrating lack of transparency
at the college game as to who has the better
the better sum of money through NIL channels. There's revenue
sharing and then there's third party NIL. But it's pretty
clear that wisconstants playing catchup, and that's probably joint blame.

(45:55):
It's not just athletic administration. It could be the head
football coach. It could be a lot of things where
there was maybe an underestimation of what was required. And
I think a lot of caution too, because there was
talk about having rules that were enforced with all of this,
and that really hasn't happened, and Wisconsin has got behind.

(46:16):
A lot of schools were front load front loading, which
was legal because the clearing house didn't go into effect
until July first. That's where if you're a third party
enters into an NIL agreement with an athlete from July
first on, you have to go through a clearinghouse to
make sure that what is being done for the money

(46:38):
falls within what they call a range of compensation cute
way of saying fair market value. So there's a lot
to that. It's a worthy little monologue of going on here,
but I think the bottom line Wisconsin is trying to
play catch up in that category of NIL for these athletes.
Now there's still the question of Okay, can you evaluate, identify, evaluate,

(47:00):
and bring in the right players to get the program
back on track. And that's I think that's the burning
question that the fans have right now. But you know,
one of the things that they've talked about with Fickle
a lot of critics, Yes, they did very well at Cincinnati.
That was pre nil. Yeah, well pre nil for everybody,
you know. But you look the other thing too, when

(47:22):
you look at the top teams in the college football
playoff rankings, Ohio State. You know, Indiana has clearly made
a big commitment with resources. Texas A and M, Alabama, Georgia, Oregon,
Texas Tech, Notre Dame. I would think that their inil
is pretty good, you know, for all of those. And
so the skeptics will say, you can't just have the money. Well,

(47:45):
of course not. But if you look at the having
the money doesn't guarantee you're going to to reach greatness.
But the teams that do have the money. This is
no different than Major League Baseball. You know, the breweries
have been remote parkably successful onlimited resources. But the teams
that win it or the last two standing are high

(48:08):
payroll teams. We know about the Dodgers.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Well, the Blue.

Speaker 4 (48:10):
Jays are pretty high there too. So it's it's one
of those like having having a ton of money doesn't
guarantee success. Not having a ton of money makes it,
i don't want to say impossible, but makes it enormously
more difficult.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
Yeah, and I agree with you, man, if you have
the resources, you still have to make the right call
on talent. Okay, absolutely, Still that's the most critical thing.
If you have the resources, you have to make the
right choices with that resource, and that's not always as
easy as we all think it is on the outside.

Speaker 4 (48:44):
And I really give Indiana so much credit. I've been
looking at video obviously of the Hoosiers in preparation for
Saturdays Wisconsin in and when Kurtzignetti made the move from
James Madison to Bloomington, Indiana, he brought thirteen players. They
it was thirteen players last year and there were still
seven or so from James Madison, so probably players people

(49:07):
didn't know anything about. But they're really good. I mean
they're legit good. And they've identified many other players like
a Fernando Mendoza, who might be the first quarterback off
the board now you know the the NFL scouts have
been drooling over him. And they're not only really talented.
Their turnover margins plus thirteen, they don't commit a lot

(49:29):
of penalties. They are just a fundamentally sound football team.
So you have to bring in the talent, you have
to develop them as best you can for as long
as you have them. A lot of these guys are
in their final year of eligibility at IU, so the
big question to me, and I think Indiana is certainly
on a path. Can you have a program in the

(49:53):
way that we would describe a team being a program,
you know, through development, through recruiting, development, guys getting better
or is it a matter of year to year wafter
construction like it is in professional sports. That's the that's
the big question. There were a lot of people think
the answer is the latter. You know, we're seeing this
with Wisconsin basketball, a bunch of different looking rosters, some

(50:14):
mainstays to be sure, but that's the that's the thing
with college with college athletics and football. Here for for
the purpose of this conversation, can you do that? What's
Indiana going to look like in two or three years?

Speaker 1 (50:27):
Well?

Speaker 4 (50:27):
What's stay outly? Good teams? Are teams? Are they going
to rise and fall more? Those are questions that I
think we're all eager to find out the answers.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
To, Well, Indiana is paying Signetti like an NFL coach,
so they better be good three years now. You know,
he's pretty Victo's off, he's a pretty good Hey, you
mentioned the Badgers basketball program off to a two and
zero start, twenty fourth rank. You know, when we talk
about and Greg Gard has navigated this stuff as well
as anyone. I've seen this changing landscape a lot of

(51:00):
easier to do in basketball, folks, because of the numbers
of players, that's all. Football is a much different animal.
And I saw the Bulls win all those games in
the nineties, win all those titles, and is you know,
why can't the Bears do it? Why can't the Packers
win every Well? You know, football's fifty three men on
your roster or more in college, and you know, to

(51:21):
get all those guys on the same page not as easy.
And whereas in basketball you had a group of fifteen
maybe eight, make a difference and you go and if
you can keep that group together, you're going to contend
much different situation. But the Badger basketball, what are we
looking at this year? Yeah, they look like they have

(51:42):
hit through the portal.

Speaker 4 (51:43):
Certainly two years ago with aj Store that worked out
really well from them for them. Last year John Toanjay
was outstanding. Nick Boyd is really an exciting, young, sighting
young player. He's in his final year at eligibility, but
he gives them a burst of from the guard position.
That is that I think fans enjoy watching. Andrew Roadie,

(52:04):
who's from Brookfield Central but started his college career Saint
Thomas and then was at Virginia for the last couple
of years. He can do a little bit of just
about anything. He's grown as a defensive player. He has
really good vision on the floor.

Speaker 3 (52:19):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (52:19):
It's a good mix. But you have the main stage
too in the in the starting lineup. You've got three
transfers in the starting lineup, and then you've got John Blackwell,
who I think is one of the better guards in
the league, and Nolan Winter as a frontliner who just
continues to get better and better.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
It's it's a.

Speaker 4 (52:36):
Different look in Wisconsin style, Wayne, from the style that
when you were calling the games on Big ten. Plus
with with these guys there, there's more pace. They loved it,
a little bit of the NBA model, shoot a lot
of threes, getting layups and dunks. Not big fans of
the mid ranch game, but they through their first couple

(52:56):
of games, they've been scoring into the nineties. The scheduled
ramp up pretty soon though. They've got the ball State
game on Tuesday night, SIU Edwardsville next Monday, then it's BYU,
then it's Providence, then it could be the Rainning National Champs.
Florida so it ramps up and they'll continue to learn
quite a bit about themselves. Eure up the next couple

(53:16):
of three weeks.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
Well, I've held the Monday night football game Packers and
Eagles two of the very last year, because last at least,
what what can you say about that game? Half to pay?

Speaker 4 (53:34):
You know, it was interesting in the open to the
pod you say it is about as entertaining as a
ten to seven game as you could as you could imagine,
And it was entertaining slash maddening, I think, because you're
looking at this team and going they're better than that,
I think, but you know, to still have a chance

(53:56):
and waiting. For the life of me, I'm still not
quite sure what the Eagles were thinking on fourth down
in the final minute, taking a deep shot rather than punting.
But they are banged up, you know, I've talked about
that with Wisconsin football. They've had a lot of injuries.
They're mounting with the Green Bay Packers right now. But
to me, Wayne, and you see this, you know, obviously

(54:19):
much much closer than I do. This season, they played
to their competition, but they didn't on Monday Night. You know,
they they escaped with the tie against Dallas, you lose
to Cleveland, you lose to the Panthers, and the way
you know they played it, particularly in the opener against
the Lions, going WHOA, Okay, but I guess I sit

(54:41):
here as a fan, I'm a little concerned. But you
see this up close? How still a long way to
go here? How concerned should fans be with this team?

Speaker 3 (54:51):
Well, the offense obviously has some issues, and it starts
in the offensive line, and Matt the offensive line has
You know, the Packers over the last several years have
had a top five offensive line of the league. This year,
their offensive line is okay in pass protection, but they
have not run the football effectively, and a lot of

(55:11):
it falls on the offensive line. There's this stat out
there going into the game last night in a Monday
night game Philadelphia and Green Bay. But there's a stat
Josh Jacobs of his rushing yards, eighty one percent have
come after contact. Now that's an offensive line stat in
my book. Okay, you know, you got to keep your

(55:34):
runner clean at least to the line of scrimmage and
maybe a yard or two beyond if you're gonna hit
big plays. And they were unable to do so. Jacobs
ran hard, He's run hard all year. I asked Larry Mchaerron,
who watches every practice, is Jacob's healthy? Is he okay?
And Larry says there's nothing wrong with Jacobs, and that
left me to okay. We got an offensive line problem here.

(55:55):
Elton Jenkins, the starting center, goes out with an injury
ankle injury last night. Didn't return. Don't know what his
status will be going forward. But there's some attrition on
that offensive line, and in fact, they just have not
performed the way we all thought they would. Secondly, you've
got injuries at the receiver position. Golden wasn't available last night.
They could have used him obviously, but he has a

(56:16):
shoulder injury. The loss of Tucker Craft. You know, one
point last night, I think it was on the air.
Maybe it wasn't, you know. Larry mccaerron said, they're really
struggling to find out. Okay, how do we navigate without
Tucker Craft? Okay? And people say, well, he's just a
tight end. No, he was heart and soul. He was

(56:36):
a playmaker. When he got the ball in his hands,
he made plays. He would became Jordan Love's go to
receiver when the Chips were down as was the case
in Arizona and fourth down and did not have him.
This is a huge adjustment that they had to make
on the fly this week. I understand the NFL their
injuries all over, these are not excuses, but the fact

(56:57):
is they are struggling in that regard. Offensively, the Eagles
got consistent pressure on Jordan Love, and for the first
time consistently I saw Jordan get in the pocket, hesitate, weight, maneuver,
and at times it cost him. He got a big
fourteen yard sack early in the ballgame on their first
drive that basically sucked the air out of the drive

(57:19):
and the building. You know. He I'm not sure if
the coverage was anything special by Philadelphia, but it seemed
to me like Packers' receivers were not getting opened very consistently,
and you know, that was a credit to Philadelphia. The
other factor is this last night. In that game, Philadelphia

(57:40):
got pressure on forty percent of Jordan Love's dropbacks. That's huge,
you know, and and that's he He struggled, as most
quarterbacks do when defenses are able to get consistent pressure,
and that's what they did. So where are the Packers
this was a big measuring stick game. They measured up defensively,

(58:03):
but boy, the offense it looks like it needs a fix.
And I know Matt Lafleura feels that way, and they'll
see what they can do. They go to the Giants.
I will say this. People are saying, well, listen, it
should be an easy win for the Packers. Yeah, and no,
the Giants have an excellent defensive front. They are very athletic,
Cavon Thibodeau, Brian Burns. I mean, they are just outstanding.

(58:26):
And if the offensive line is in the state it's
in right now, that's gonna be tough road to hope.

Speaker 4 (58:33):
Yeah, and they've already lost to Cleveland and Carolina, so
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
I mean, yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (58:37):
Guess that first glance, you going, this is one that
they should get. But we've seen this team at its
best be really good, and when it's not, it's vulnerable
to anybody. So our tour of former Badgers not a
late you have list from this week though, right.

Speaker 3 (58:52):
Yeah, you know, I scoured the New York Giants rostered
for Wisconsin players and found one Matt in our in
our feature here in the Larra viv La Pey podcast,
we pick out a Packers opponent with Wisconsin ties, and
this one would be Wisconsin quarterback Russell Wilson, who played
one magical season in Madison. Tell me something I don't

(59:16):
know about Russell Wilson in that magical season in Madison.

Speaker 4 (59:19):
Well, here's a reminder, because I have a lot of
fans telling me they really don't like the transfer world. Well,
he was in the portal before we called it a portal.
But he arrived in the summer of twenty eleven from
North Carolina State because the coach of the football coach
at the time really didn't want to play in baseball.
And well there was no baseball question here at the
University of Wisconsin. But he had a great opportunity to

(59:41):
come here. It became, if I remember correctly, it came
down to Wisconsin and Auburn, and the fit was really good.
Brett Beelm did a great job of establishing a relationship,
developing a relationship. Paul Christ was the offensive coordinator at
the time. And I know Russell these days is more polarizing.

(01:00:03):
Probably you know, his play has not been as good
and he's extremely measured with everything that he says and
He was like that here as well. When he was here,
he was as a as a college guy, really meticulous.
There were there were a lot of media folks locally
nationally who came in, and even with the newspaper interviews,

(01:00:23):
he wanted to make sure he was dressed appropriately. Uh
you know, he wanted the collared shirt and you know,
should I wear a sport coach? Should I not? It
was all of me.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
This is like, no, it's.

Speaker 4 (01:00:34):
A newspaper reporter. But he but that that's the way
that That's the way he was. And I don't know Wyane,
how many of his teammates really got to know him. Now.
You know, he arrives at late June and you know,
plays the one season and then he's getting ready for
the draft. But as he was as a quarterback that year,

(01:00:55):
he was just electrifying a ton of touchdowns, very few intercepts.
And I would say that you know that that season
they were really good. They won the Big Ten Championship
and beating Michigan State and as entertaining a Big Ten
Championship game, I think as there has been since that
went into existence. But he was somebody who had Heisman moments,

(01:01:17):
but the games didn't end right. You want us talk
about this at the college world, you know, media folks,
So you know Fernando Mendoza had a Heisman moment for
Indiana with the late touchdown pass last week against Penn State.
Russell had a couple of them in games that Wisconsin
ended up losing against Michigan State, led a rally to

(01:01:39):
give his get his team in a position to go
to overtime. Michigan wins at the Kirk Cousins Hail Mary.
The following week, they come from behind, grab a lead
over Luke Fickles Ohio State Buckeyes, and then Wisconsin gives
up a late touchdown with twenty seconds left. But had
those other had the back end of those things not
happened that they Russell would have been in line to not,

(01:02:02):
you know, not just lead a team that might have
been playing for a national title. But he certainly would
have been a Heisman Trophy caliber player. He was pretty
close to it, which certainly was in the conversation as
it was. But I mean, he was terrific when he
was here. He was very polite, very respectful, very measured,
and like I said, I don't know how many of

(01:02:25):
his teammates really got to know him that well. Jesse Temple,
who used to write for The Athletic, he writes for
what's called Badger Connect now, did a story on Russ
a couple of years ago, and a lot of the
players said as much. Yeah, great, Y know, great talent.
Yeah I could throw it, not real big, but his
lack of height was not a detriment. And Pete Russell Wilson,

(01:02:46):
you could say the same thing. In the NFL. Lack
of heth was was not a detriment. But really getting
to know that was probably very probably very few folks did.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
It's interesting, and that was an exciting season twenty eleven.
And you know, Matt, of all the quarterbacks and all
the teams you've seen, is Russell Wilson the most gifted
to the quarterbacks that you've seen it at Wisconsin.

Speaker 4 (01:03:07):
Yeah, that year was tremendous. I mean that was a
team that scored like forty two, forty three points a game.
It could score from anywhere in the field, had great
offensive line, terrific running backs. He had Nick toon Jared
aberderis his outstanding his outstanding receivers. Mark Touscher and I
talk about this and he's a little biased as am.

(01:03:28):
I I think over the course of the career, Brooks
Bollinger for me was just was outstanding. But I just
think in terms of talent, you know, for one year,
it's pretty it's pretty hard to say anybody was more
so at the position than Russell Wilson, because that was
an offense that could score from anywhere on the field
at any times, as tough, as much as it's squeezing

(01:03:51):
blood from a turn up right now, for this offense,
it was the opposite of that. Back in twenty eleven.
They were electrifying offense.

Speaker 3 (01:03:59):
Yeah, and Wilson may start for the Giants against the
Packers this weekend. Jackson Dart suffered a concussion, we were told,
in the game last weekend and Chicago and did not return.
So that'll all be up in the air. But we
could see Russell Wilson and the Packers have history with
Thrussell Wilson, and from a Green Bay standpoint, much of

(01:04:19):
it isn't good.

Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
Yes, say, we don't need to rehass that right now.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
We don't, nor do we have time to do so. Matt, thankfully,
good luck with the Badgers basketball this week, and best
of luck with the football this weekend. That'll do it
for us on the Larvie la Pay podcast thanks to
our guest Rich Podowski, author of Madden and Summer All,
our engineer Dave McCann. Our executive producer of the Larva
La Pay podcast on iHeartMedia is Monica whitcop For Matt,

(01:04:46):
this is Wayne. We'll see you next time of the
larre Vie la Pay podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
The Laravian La Pay podcast is a production of iHeartRadio
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