Wayne & Matt Talk Curly Lambeau with Author Herb Gould

Wayne and Matt are joined by Herb Gould, veteran Chicago Sun-Times reporter and author of Lambeau: The Epic Life of Earl Lewis “Curly” Lambeau, the Man Who Invented the Green Bay Packers. To get a copy of his book, visit bit.ly/GouldLambeauBook.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
But yeah, that was that was not a great relationship.
They were just opposites in so many ways. I mean,
Curly was a success at twenty twenty one years old
building a team, and even you know, when he was
a national guy at thirty something, Lombardi was still coaching
high school. You know, they just were so opposite that,

(00:22):
you know, publicly they would be you know, they would
needle each other in a fun way, but yeah, they didn't.
I don't think they really were what you'd call close.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
This is the Laravian La Pey Podcast, a production of
iHeartRadio Podcasts, with hosts Swayne Larvie, the voice of the
Green Bay Packers, and Matt Lapey, the voice of Wisconsin
Badgers football and men's basketball. The Larovian La Pey Podcast
is presented by Potawatamie Casino Hotel.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Your win is waiting.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
Hi everybody, I'm Wayne Laravie and I'm Matt Lapet. Welcome
to the Lerovie La Pey Podcast, present it by Padawanabe
Casino Hotel. Coming up on this episode, we welcome Herb Gould,
longtime Chicago Sun Times sportswriter and the author of Lambeau
The Epic Life of Earl Lewis Curley Lambeau, the man
who invented the Green Bay Packers. The Badgers wrapped up

(01:17):
their football campaign. What Now. The Packers and Bears played
for the two hundred and eleventh time this Sunday in
lambeau Field, but this time there's something more on the
table than just the rivalry to The winner goes first
place in the NFC North heading into the final month
of the NFL season. All of that coming up on
this episode of the Lerra Villa Pay Podcast. The Lerra

(01:39):
Villa Pay Podcast is brought to you by Padawanabe Hotel Casino.
Your win is waiting. We welcome in Herb Gould, author
of Lambeau, The Epic Life of Earl Lewis Curley Lambeau,
the man who've invented the Green Bay Packers. Herb, it's
great to see you. And I were in Chicago together
for a number of years. You were covering the beats,

(02:02):
different beats for the Chicago Sun Times. You're one of
the most versatile sports writers ever and I was broadcasting
the Bears, the Bulls and anything else they would let
me do with wg over those years. But it's great
to see hope everything's going well.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
It is and I have a lot of fond memories.
Wayne read those pickup basketball games in Platteville at Bears
training camp when we were young, and it's really great
to see you two.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
Good A question about those they were pick up basketball
games in Madison. I don't know if anybody ever had
an assist? Did you get did anybody share the ball
in your pickup games? Like? I just have to know,
you know.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
The one thing I do remember is I used to
hold on to Kenvalve the series Jersey to keep him
from getting away from me. And you may recall, Wayne
that Paul Christ's father, George or Lee, he was the
one who he was the athletic director plattfell and he
opened up the gym for us and and you couldn't

(03:05):
have been more congenial. But you're you're so right, Matt.
There was no there was no team sharing of the ball.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
You know, if I was open on the perimeter, the
ball was going up. It wasn't going out, it was
going up.

Speaker 4 (03:18):
Classic. That's classic.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (03:21):
I heard the book the first I guess it's a
it's a natural first question. There have been some things
written about Lambeau but when we think Packers, we think Lombardy,
the history of it. So what was what got you
into thinking of this and eventually writing this book about
Curly Lambeau.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Well, that that's that's a great place to start. Mat
you know, I grew up in Chicago, and I was
pretty much all Bears, although we I went to school
in Madison and and we always with vacation in Door
County and now live there. And I would hear people
calling out Lambeau, Lambeau. Everybody's dog was named Lambeau and

(04:00):
would be hiking, and I kind of wanted to know
about him, and I had no idea, you know, other
than that he had started the team and had won
a lot of games. And then I found out that
a lot of Packer fans had the same answer, and
so I started looking into it. And the man led
such a fascinating life that I one thing led to another,

(04:23):
and soon I was getting up every morning and pouring
over the old newspapers. I'm a history major from Madison,
and so that was a perfect fit for me, sports
and history, and I just found more and more interesting
parts about Curly Lambeau's life. I mean, he not only

(04:45):
started if he had just started the team and kept
it alive and turned it into the historic, iconic franchise
it is. That would be enough, but there were so
many other layers to his life. You know, he played
very briefly for Newt Rockney, just one season. I'm not

(05:05):
sure that he opened a book. He was only there
for several months. And I but yet, I think that
he was really influenced by Newt Rockney to the point
where he wanted to create the Notre Dame of the NFL.
And I think he did that. You know, the Packers
really are a national team. You know, they used to

(05:28):
call the Cowboys America's team, but honestly, that didn't survive
the way the Packers. You go everywhere and you see
Packers stuff. So I just kept looking and looking and
how did a team like the Packers survive in Green Bay?
And what was?

Speaker 4 (05:44):
You know?

Speaker 1 (05:44):
And then you find out that Curly was married three
times and divorced three times, and honestly, they were kind
of ugly situations. And then at the end of his life,
the love of his life was a woman who was
half his age in Door County. And so, you know,
there were just so many levels that made the book fascinating,

(06:06):
and I couldn't I couldn't resist, and I spent years
going over newspapers, found some older people who had known
Curly in dor County. When one guy who was actually
the son of a packer from the forties, he had
cut Curly's grass when Curley retired he lived in Fish Creek,

(06:29):
and you know, so many others. So it just snowballed.
And then you know, throwing into it the rivalry with
George Hallis. I mean, that's why the book is such
a big book, because I've had to put the backstories
of the Bears. The contrast between Hallis and Lombardi, Hallis
and Lambeau there we Go was so great, and yet

(06:53):
the partnership was also great. You know, they wanted to
kill each other on Sunday, but the rest of the
week they were business partners of the In the early
days before standard schedules, the Bears and Packers would play
three times a year. They'd play once in Green Bay
early and they would play twice in Chicago. And this
was in the days when it was an eleven or

(07:14):
twelve game schedule, and you know, there was just it
was about making some money and keeping the franchise alive.
So that's kind of a long version. I mean, when
I get going on this, I'm just I'm very excited
about the whole topic.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
You know, herb Lambo passed away in the mid nineteen sixties.
You and I were you and I and Matt were
actually kids back then. So how do you You mentioned
you dive into the newspaper articles, the history of and
all that. How difficult is it to write a six
hundred and two page document like this without ever having

(07:50):
met Curly Lambeau And what did you learn about him
as you chipped away at this project.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
Well, that's a great question to Wayne. Well, first of all,
the newspapers were huge. I mean I went over every
press gazette while Curley was there, and then later people
may not know. And that was another reason it's a
long book. Is after Curly left Green Bay, he became
the coach of the Chicago Cardinals for a couple of years,

(08:17):
and then the coach of the Washington Redskins for a
couple of years, and he also coached the College All
Stars and so there was a lot of you know,
material in the papers from those communities. And then I
was also fortunate that Cliff Crystal, the historian of the Packers,

(08:38):
did some terrific interviews with people who.

Speaker 4 (08:42):
Were while they were still alive.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
You know, they were gone when I was starting my project,
so that helped. And then I just noodled around wherever
I could find it. And I'm still bumping into people
in Door County who I didn't know when I was
doing the book, and I go, yeah, I was the
I was the night clerk when Curly's house proung down
and he stayed and so, you know, one thing led

(09:07):
to another and then there Curly was such a public
figure then. I mean when he would go to New York,
the big columnists would interview him and they because he
was a good talker, he was a great quote and
he cultivated it. So there was a lot of good
material in New York, even when he was the Green

(09:27):
Bay coach. And you know, you just keep noodling around
and you never know what you're gonna find. There were
there obviously were several books that you know about the
Packers that would mention things, and I even found his
third Curly's third wife was married to a Hollywood director

(09:49):
briefly and had a troubled daughter that was diagnosed with schizophrenia.
At any rate. There was a whole chapter about this
stepdaughter of his in this Hollywood book, and these guys
didn't know who Curly Lambeau was. You know, he said

(10:11):
her mother was married to some big lug of a
football coach from green from Wisconsin. They didn't even know
his name. So, you know, you kind of doing the
research was very interesting, and seeing people who really had
no appreciation for the Packers or Curly Lambeau was really interesting.

Speaker 4 (10:29):
It's a good word choice you're talking about the research
herb with the being interesting because, as you write, Curly
Lambeau had a way of stretching the truth, let's say.
And one of the first things he noticed in the
book is that, well, here's what was said, and then
you say, well, here's what probably really happened. I guess
that's part of what makes him a great character. But

(10:51):
I would imagine it added to the challenge of trying
to figure out exactly what was fact and what was
fiction about him.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, it really was. I mean the one that always
caught my eye was, you know, when he was all
three of his NFL coaching stints ended badly. I mean,
he basically, and that was another tribute to the greatness
of the man that the good citizens of Green Bay
ran him out of town for spending too much money
and not winning enough games, and then they put his

(11:20):
name on the stadium. I mean, what greater tribute could
there be? But yeah, and then when he was in Washington,
he worked for George Preston Marshall, who was a legendary
owner and they knew each other for twenty years because
Curly had functioned as an owner when he was with
the Packers. And at the end of their little two

(11:42):
year get together, they got into a dispute during an
exhibition after an exhibition loss in Sacramento, and they were
trying to hit each other. They were old enough that
nobody landed any punches. But then Curly had just come
out of the bar and the hotel and he said,
I wasn't drinking. I would never drink in the hotel bar.

(12:04):
That's where the players, and you go, oh yeah, right, Curly.
He so yeah. It really was hard to distinguish fact
from fiction, but it was if you embrace it and
then just put it out there. I'll let the reader
decide what the actual truth was. Because I'm not always
shoeing myself.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
This must been what it's like for the gospel writers,
you know what I mean, They had nothing concrete, They
had all these stories and yet you know, but at
data rate this it's fascinating way you put this thing together.
Because so much of what we know about Curly Lambeau
is the three wives, the dashing figure on the sidelines, this,

(12:44):
that and the other thing. But what I don't know
much about is what kind of a football coach was
he Could he really spin x's and o's and was
that a big part of the game back then?

Speaker 1 (12:56):
You know, early on he was really good at it.
I believe he pioneered passing. There are the statistics in
the twenties. This is another thing, and I went around
with Cliff Crystal on this is you know, Curly is
listed as the first thousand yard passer in the NFL,
and that was the year that he did it. In

(13:16):
the mid twenties, I think the Bears passed for eighty
three yards. I mean, there were a lot of teams
that just didn't even try, and so he was innovative
in that regard. And yet he also was Curly was
the fullback on the Notre Dame team. It was an
abbreviated season in nineteen eighteen, and it was all you know,
they played six or eight games and it was all

(13:38):
in the mud, and so they Rockney used the fullback.
But I think that he was innovative up to a
point he became you know, in those days, it was
a different kind of a game, and I'm sure you know,
the game has evolved over the years so much. But
he was based on the Notre Dame box, which was

(14:00):
four backs and then you would kind of hike it
to the guy who was going to do the thing
that you wanted to do, so you'd hike it to
the you know, they would move the box around and
one back would be the passer, another back would be the.

Speaker 4 (14:14):
Runner.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
So he was good at all that sort of thing.
And then when the T formation came in, when they
started getting which was really you know, everything has sort
of evolved from that. I mean, obviously, offenses are phenomenally
different now, but when you had a situation where the
quarterback took the ball, handed it off through it curly,

(14:36):
wasn't as good at that, and I think that's why
his team struggled. You know, he won six of the
first twenty five championships in the NFL, the last coming
in nineteen forty four, and then after that his coaching
record was kind of checkered. It was a combination. He

(14:56):
wasn't great at scheme and then there were even I
did see from a players who were surprised that he
kind of got sloppy. There was one defensive player who
ended up with the Giants after he was with the Packers,
and he said Curly didn't change the signals, so he'd
call something, you know, that they would call something out
and he recognized what they were going to do. I

(15:19):
think he got sloppier. Also, Curly coached old school by intimidation.
You know, he would like literally withhold the player's paychecks
and you know they would like supposedly dangle him out
the window until he paid them. And you know, that
kind of stuff didn't work even by you know, post

(15:40):
World War Two, you couldn't really do that effectively. So yeah,
he declined in his coaching skills and became more, you know,
an overseer. You know, he tried to get the job
back when he wanted to be the GM or and
or president. When the team hired Vince Lombardi and that

(16:01):
was never gonna happen, but he still thought that he could.
You know that he knew football, I guess is the
short way.

Speaker 4 (16:11):
A relationship with Lombardi wasn't great, right, I mean there's
the famous photo, but it took a little doing to
get that done.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, that's that's right, man. I mean Lombardi really didn't
want He didn't. I don't think he respected Lambeau as
a person because Vince Lombardi was a very devout and
and you know he was he was not you know,
he was not someone who would have admired Curley's you know,
crazy personal life. Also, Curley was not he was he

(16:44):
was not a good football coach in his last several
years on his record with the Packers after World War Two,
although part of that was because he didn't have the personnel.
But yeah, they didn't think they were can you genial publicly?
But I don't think they like each other. I think
that Lombardi probably didn't really want Curley's name on that stadium.

(17:09):
I mean it's pretty clear that he didn't and he
didn't want you know, he didn't want Lambeau encroaching on
his territory and yet towards the end, Lambeau became, you know,
sort of a cheerleader for the team. He briefly had
a little television show in Green Bay where pete callers

(17:29):
would ask ask Curly was the show? You know, they
would come in with questions. But yeah, they were just
different eras it really was. They only coached against each
other once when Lombardy was an assistant with the Giants.
They played the College All Star Game and that was
the only meeting. It was one of Curley's last appearances

(17:52):
as the College All Star coach. But yeah, that was
that was not a great relationship. They were just opposites
in so many ways. I mean, Curly was a success
at twenty twenty one years old building a team, and
even you know, when he was a national guy at
thirty something, Lombardi was still coaching high school. You know,

(18:14):
they just were so opposite that, you know, publicly they
would be you know, they would needle each other in
a fun way, but yeah, they didn't. I don't think
they really were what you'd call close.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
You know, that photo Met's talking about took place at
City Stadium then, But eventually Lambeau field And it's interesting
because if you look at the facial expression of the
two men, it seems very strained, you know what I mean.
I think they did this, but they really didn't want
to do this. And you're right, Herbert, you know, Lombardi

(18:46):
was total. He was one hundred and eighty degrees different
from Lambeau based on what I've read and everything. But
at any rate, Lombardy was taking over Lambeau was kind
of I wonder if Vince kind of thought Lambeau was
jumping onto the coattails here for one last reach of
glory on Lombardi's teams in the sixties. But Curly died

(19:07):
midway through the sixties. Was it sixty five? I believe
he passed away that shait unexpected a heart attack, nothing
any heart attacks expected, but unexpected death. And you know,
at that point then the stadium was named Lambeau Field,
and was what sixty five sixty six somewhere around there.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, you know, I think that, Like you said that,
you know, the shock of his death gave momentum to
his supporters in Green Bay. And there were supporters because
when when Lambeau left after the forty nine season, until
Lombardi got there, that team was not doing well right,

(19:46):
and so there were many people in Green Bay who
you know, they were people who wanted him to come back.
And then there was no way to stop the momentum
to put the Lambeau name on the stadium one, you know,
when you added the fact that he had these supporters,
and then he had died, you know, in a way,
you know, shockingly, because he'd been a very active nan

(20:12):
until he had the heart attack. It wasn't like he
faded away. Was it was only sixty seven, you know,
but in those years, a lot of people died younger,
I mean medicine, and we probably take care of us
those better as a as a group than they did.
So yeah, that was that was kind of a quick

(20:34):
deal and the momentum was was too strong to change
the name. And I think it was appropriate because if
you think about what he did to keep that franchise alive,
you know, when when the NFL started, That's why it's
such a big book. If I may go on for
a moment, it when when the NFL started, it was
a bunch of Green Bays, you know, Rock Island, Columbus,

(20:59):
Dayton in know, and even the Bears were in Decatur,
So then as it changed over the years, there became
a policy. You know, the president of the league wanted
to get to bigger cities because they needed bigger stadiums.
They all played in baseball stadiums except for the Packers

(21:19):
major league stadiums. So to keep the Packers alive during
all of that, it's a credit to what Lambeau did
and also the people of Green Bay because, face it,
he had a ton of people helping him. You know,
he did the organizing and was the face, but there
were you know, community leaders from every walk of life, businessman,

(21:43):
the team physician, you go down the list who helped
keep that team alive. And then it became unique, and
now it is. I don't know that we'll ever see
another franchise with a public ownership like the Packers or
you know, certainly not the history.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
I'm into this, but I'm still fairly early into this book.
But I just I get a sense that I could
get a feel for the times and how players actually,
you know, going to Green Bay was that was a
destination hotspot in the nineteen twenties. As you were putting
this together, was that a big emphasis for you to
try to give us as readers, you know, not just
the facts this happened on this date, this date, and

(22:24):
here's Curly Lambeau and what he did, but to really
try to take us back into those decades and feel
like we're a part of it.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, absolutely, man. You know, I did an earlier book
on the nineteen oh eight Cubs and it was the
same kind of the thing I want to give you
a feel for. I want to give readers a feel
for how that world worked, you know, because they were
traveling on trains. I mean there were years, most years
the Packers would play the first half of their schedule

(22:53):
in Green Bay and the second half of their schedule
would be traveling around the country land road games, you know.
And so now they're on trains. And that was actually
probably a big part of Curley's first divorce was they
left Green Bay and you know, the end of October
or early November, and they came home briefly, you know,

(23:16):
at the end of December, and then they had a
barnstorming trip out to Hawaii, which was fascinating, by the way,
set up by Johnny Blood, who was, you know, truly
the vagabond football player. So yeah, I love putting that
part of it in there. I want people to have
a flavor for how it all kind of came together.

(23:37):
You know. The stories are so compelling about how Packer
fans would all pile on to a train at six
am go down to Chicago to watch the football game,
you know, and there were these quotes or they take
the overnight train but nobody slept, you know, and the
churches in Green Bay would held their services early in

(23:59):
time so the people could get on the train. I mean,
I always thought that the train travel era was fascinating,
and yeah, there was just so many parts of it.
Now we take it for granted how big sports are.
I heard you guys talking with Rick Goslin about you know,
salaries and how you know people had day jobs even

(24:21):
when we were kids. I mean I remember the Bears
and the Colts kind of united had a day job.
You know, the greatest quarterack of his era. So yeah,
I think that that's important to have the flavor of
the times because it not only takes the reader back,
but it also explains how a team like the Packers

(24:41):
could survive. I mean, the dedication of the players, their fans,
it was just you know, we really just it was
just so pure in a lot of ways because there
wasn't the money involved that we have now.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
Yeah, you're talking about a three month road trip today,
we complained if it's a two fac to that games
on the road, you know what I mean, a two
road trips, so a lot different back then. Let me
ask you this, of all the players that he coached,
did he have a favorite one and who would that be?

Speaker 1 (25:16):
You know, I think that Don Hudson and Johnny Blood
were I think they were probably his most exciting players.
And I think that he had a special bond with
both of them because they stayed friendly many years afterward,
and they were you know, they also played into all

(25:37):
of Curly's stories. I mean, trying to figure out what
happened and what didn't happen when you look at the
quotes from from Hudson and Johnny Blood a very difficult.
But I think those two. I think Johnny Blood he
would compete with with Curly for women and and he
was a very eloquent guy. And he also he could

(25:59):
he would party. I mean, Johnny Blood was one of
the all time party guys, and so I think that
was a great relationship. I know Johnny mentioned that you know,
the night they both were in the inaugural Pro Football
Hall of Fame class, and they were both out in
La or Palm Springs, you know, in southern California, and

(26:21):
they went out to celebrate being named the first Hall
of Fame, and Johnny Blood said, yeah, we were in
a hotel and Chubby Checker was playing singing the Twist,
you know, doing his twist. That was right when the
Twist was big in the early sixties. And I looked
it up every which way that I could. I could
not find one appearance Spy Chubby Checker but that those

(26:41):
two guys could have gone to. I assumed that it
was another embellist story, but you know, they they definitely
were great friends. And the same thing with Don Hudson.
I mean, Don Hudson was such a not only you know,
the greatest receiver of his era and really, you guys,
I sort of think of him and Jerry Rice as

(27:03):
the all time greatest receivers if you're man an All
NFL team, but also was a terrific businessman after his
football career, and they stayed close. And I remember when
Kurt when the word came out that Curly had died
Don Hudson's wife took the call and she said that

(27:24):
he was so upset he couldn't really give a comment
at that point. Yeah, you know, so they were those
two guys really stand out. You know, there are other
guys that he was tied with. I mean Dick Weiskerber,
whose son I interviewed. Dick's our era played for Curly

(27:46):
around nineteen forty, you know, late thirties, early forties. He
owned the C and C Supper Club, which some of
our older listeners may remember, was a real hotspot in
Fish Creek in Dork County, and that's where Curly took
all his meals after his house gone down because he
lived in the carriage house and he didn't really have

(28:06):
a kitchen anymore. So, you know, he was pretty tight
with Dick Weiskerber. I mean, that was another fun story,
if I may go on. Dick and Curly helped out
the the Gibraltar High school team after Curly had retired
in and there were they had a young coach and
I talked to the son of the coach, who was

(28:28):
actually a good friend now, and Curly wanted to pull
the kids out of school to practice, and the principal said, no,
we're not doing that, and he told this young coach
that he had to fire Curly. So Curly got fired
from the Gibraltar Vikings as well as the Ackers, Chicago Cardinals,

(28:49):
and Washington Redskins, and you know, he was just you know,
it was just what a life. I guess that was
the thing. I talked to Upton Bell. The a Bert
Bell who was the NFL commissioner before Pete Rose Allen
and then Burt Bell was a very dynamic commissioner. And
Upton remembered going to pack or camp in the late

(29:13):
forties when he was like ten years old. He was
a precocious kid. They said, yeah, they trained at it
like it was like a hotel. Well, actually it was
retreat that had been built by the Norbertine of Order
about ten miles out of Green Bay. And if people
are listening and you go buy Bayshore Park, which is

(29:35):
a big campground, that's where this where Curly had the
guy's training. He talked the team into buying this retreat
and they couldn't practice at it. They found out very
quickly because there, you know, the soil was only about
an inch deep on the rocky Peninsula and any rate

(29:56):
I'm growing on, but I get excited about it because
it's it's just such a great bit of history. And
Curly was just you know, like like Upton Bell, Tom
the guy did it all. I mean, that was one
of my favorite quotes of the book.

Speaker 4 (30:11):
He had a thing to herb that he saw things
we are moving forward that no one dreamed of because
the growth of the league through television, and he saw
dome stadiums. So maybe in his perfect world it would
have been Lambeau Dome up in Green Bay, which it
which sounds like, oh my goodness, you can't, you can't
do that, But maybe if he had his way.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, isn't isn't that something Matt. It's one of the
great ironies that his name is on the ultimate cold
weather stadium and he hated cold weather. I mean he
was he was in California as quickly as he could be.
You guys, went scouting out there. And but he did
see domes because he I think that what happened was,
you know, the early days there there are many stories

(30:54):
where the packers' fortunes were hanging by a thread and
there would be there would be lousy weather, you know,
going back to the very earliest days, the team, you know,
had two or three bankruptcies, and a lot of that
could be attributed to, you know, poor attendance and allows
the weather, and so dome stadiums were an answer, and

(31:14):
if you think about it, it makes a lot of
sense from a business standpoint. He saw that. He also
saw that television was going to become a huge thing.
I mean he predicted, you know, a little bit overstated
that people wouldn't go to games because it was too
comfortable to sit on their couch and watch the game
in their comfort of their own home, you know. And

(31:38):
there is a large element of that. I mean when
you think about domes television, you know, he knew, he
knew where it was all going. I mean it really
was a visionary guy in a lot of ways.

Speaker 4 (31:50):
Yeah, he was.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
He was a very smart guy to her, because here's
a guy who really didn't have a college education and
yet was an entrepreneur and made a lot of money
and was very wealthy when he died. The Lerravila Pay
podcast is brought to you by Podawadamie Hotel Casino. Your
win is waiting. Herb Gould, the author of Lambeau. The

(32:12):
epic life of Earl Lewis Curley Lambeau, the man who
invented the Green Bay Packers, is our guest on the
Laravila Pay podcast, Herb I got to ask you. With
the Bears and Packers getting set to renew hostilities this weekend.
Jerry Kramer, in his book Instant Replay detailed and took

(32:33):
us inside of how Lombardi regarded the Bears Packers rivalry
and George Hallis and everything else. You touched on it
briefly earlier, but Lambeau and Hallis a unique relationship double
ended in that they were friends and business partners six
days a week, and when they met on Sundays they
were mortal enemies. How big a rivalry.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Was Bear's Packers in the early going of the league
was a huge way. And I mean, there's just no
way to say it anymore clearly. They were the anchors
of the league. I mean, when you look at it,
this was a league that started in the Midwest. Those
became the two strongest teams because there were a lot

(33:16):
of blue Laws in the East. Teams like you know
in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, other cities, they weren't even allowed to
play on Sunday, So you know, those teams came around later.
The Giants were in fairly early. But yeah, the Packers
and the Bears were the anchors of the league. They
also were the most important franchises in just about every way. Frequently,

(33:42):
George Hallis and Curly Lambeau would be on the rules committee,
I mean, the rules of the NFL. If you go back,
I was kind of surprised. You know, when a ball
went out abounds, until say n early thirties, they would
put the ball right on the edge of the sidelines.
You had to waste a play to get back into
the field. Well, you know, Curly and George Hallis and

(34:06):
a couple other owners said, hey, this is not a
good way to show our product. So they were, you know,
they were instrumental in rules. They and the rivalry at
the same time was just they were always accusing each
other of spying, which I think was probably true. You

(34:27):
know that I have a great photo at One of
my favorite moments was on Pearl Harbor Day. The Packers
season had ended, so they were waiting to find out
if the Bears beat the Cardinals on Pearl Harbor Day,
literally nineteen forty one, they would need to play the

(34:47):
first playoff game in NFL history, And Curly took his
whole team down to Comiski Park to watch the Bears
and Cardinals play. And uh, you know, Curly, there's this
great picture of Curly with binoculars. You know, he's it
just looks very surreptitious. They look like gangsters. They're all

(35:09):
in trench coats and stores. But yeah, they were. They
were the voice. They were they were the key owners
of the league, you know later on and that and
I think key owners, you know, with in quotes, because
Curly wasn't the owner that was. That was one of
the great unique facets of his life is that everybody

(35:30):
called him an owner, but he wasn't the owner. And
then he found out when he started losing that he
really wasn't the owner.

Speaker 4 (35:39):
So what this rivalry? Kind of a Tommy in cheek
question here her, But you being at the Sun Times
for four decades, all your you know, your readers, being
with you know, the overwhelming majority Bears fans and your
colleagues covered the Bears, did you get any good nature
ribbing that here you are writing a story that in
essens gives us a you know, the big chunk of
history of the green Bay Packers of teams.

Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yeah, you know, Matt, that's great.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
I really did you know. I went on I did
a Green Bay morning show, terrific show, Local five Alive,
and they asked me how a guy who grew up
on the Bears could become an authority on the Packers,
and and you know, I think it gives me more
of a perspective because if if I a guy who

(36:24):
grew up, you know, rooting for George Hallis's Vedora over
Vince Lombardi's could appreciate the Packers' story, and I really do.
I think it's a fascinating story. I think that it
gives me a way to tell it without being, you know,
sort of a member of the tribe. And I do
appreciate the Packers and them. I've always felt that way

(36:46):
about the Packers, the Saint Louis Cardinals in baseball, you know,
a couple of others, because these are these teams from
these smaller markets that have far fewer reasons to be successful,
and yet they are far more successful than my Chicago heroes.
So you know, I think I think it almost helps

(37:06):
because I'm a little more objective. I don't give the
packers any passage. If it's a good story, it's a
good story.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
Yeah, regardless of how it looks. You're right, hey, Herb.
It's a wonderful book. You know, I've thumbed through it
several times here and you know, in the process of
reading it as mad as. It's a big one, but gosh,
it's got to be the quintessential biography on on Curly Lambeau.
It's really well done, just a really good book. It

(37:37):
really enjoyed it well. Thank you, Wayne. I really appreciate it.
And it's great talking to you guys. You know, we
spent a lot of nights and days in arenas talking
about things and sharing a cup of coffee. It's really
great to connect with you again. And can I say
something about that. You know, somebody was asking me this
week about my time in Chicago, and the one thing

(37:59):
I miss is that there was between print media and
electronic media in Chicago, everybody kind of got along. In
other words, you know, we would spend time after hours,
you know, talking about the beat, or maybe i'd go
up to somebody at training camp like you or Mike

(38:19):
Mulligan and talk for about a half hour during practice
about what was going on, what was happening. You know,
what do you think about this and this guy and
that guy. That doesn't happen in every market, and it
certainly doesn't happen in this one here. But I thought
that that's the one thing I miss about Chicago because
the media was ingrained. And the other thing about Chicago

(38:40):
is the fans, the audience that we talked to that
you wrote for, embrace the journalists. They embrace the people
giving them the news. Unlike any other market I've seen,
including New York, Boston, where I've been in Kansas City,
other places, it's nothing like that. Chicago's very unique, and
it's part of what makes it great sports down now,

(39:02):
you're You're exactly right, you know. I always felt like Mike,
a big part of my job was to be the
eyes and ears of the average fan. I would say, well,
what what what does the guy who's watching and following
this team want to know?

Speaker 1 (39:16):
And I think that you're right. We were always close, you know,
I never felt any even my friends at the Tribune
and we had we had to compete on certain things
where there was breaking news, but if it was something
that was you know everybody, you know, common knowledge types
of things we were free to talk about that. We

(39:37):
didn't do that because you spend too much time together.
You know, you want to win when there's something to win.
But other than that, you got to be professional and
courteous to the guys that basically spend a lot of
time with.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
No question about it. Herb listen, thank you much, Good
luck with the book. What a project. Last question for me,
how long did it take you to put this together?
Was it a project that took years in the making. Yes,
it does, my wife says four years. I think I
probably spent like two or three and then spent the
last part of it cleaning it up and getting it

(40:16):
ready to publish. But yeah, I would get up every morning.
And you know, it's funny.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
I was a late night guy when I was working,
you know, in the newspaper business. But now I'm just
the opposite. I get up in the morning and I'm
fresh and do that research, you know, right off the
right out of the gate.

Speaker 3 (40:35):
In the books available Gone fall On Press.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
Gone fall On Press. Yes, and yeah, and you can
you know it's at Amazon. I love doing signed copies.
If you look on Facebook. I have a page that'll
have a lot of the access points there too.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Well, HERB can't thank you enough for taking time out
with us. Again, as I mentioned, good luck with the book,
Lambeau and keep in Touch will be taught soon.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
I'm sure that sounds great. Take care, guys.

Speaker 4 (41:03):
Guys are the Larva La Pay podcast is presented by
Padawana be Casino Hotel. Your win is waiting. Well, let's
stay on the Packers Bears theme here. As you mentioned,
they need again and like we all predicted, the stakes
are high because the Bears, as we as we speak,

(41:23):
are the number one seed. Obviously everything's subject to change,
but right now the number one seed in the NFC.
This is good. I think the casual fan will be
drawn to this reign right because the history behind this rivalry,
it's always a big deal with fans. It's a big

(41:44):
deal period now. And like I said, just like you
and I predicted back in August.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
Exactly, you know, you go back to nineteen ninety two
and the Packers have dominated this rivalry, but there have
been a handful of seasons where the Bears have been
equal to or better than the Packers. Two thousand and
six comes to mind when Lovey Smith led the Bears
to the Super Bowl. You know, recent years, twenty eighteen,

(42:09):
the Bears won both games against the Packers. But this
is an interesting rivalry in that now there's something tangible
to a stake, and I go back to twenty ten
that was the ultimate when you know, the Packers and
Bears split the regular season series and ended up meeting
in the NFC Championship game. This is what It's a

(42:30):
wonderful rivalry anyway, but when there's something more than rivalry
at stake, it really goes to the next level. And
they've met two hundred and ten times, including two postseason contests.
No two teams have played more than these two teams
against one another in NFL history. The Packers, after trailing
the Bears for decades, now have a lead of one

(42:51):
to eight ninety six. There have been six ties over
the years, So it becomes a big deal now because
so much is at stake. If the winner of this
game will have first place in the division in the
NFC North heading into the final month of the season.
And you're right, Matt, it's all fluid no matter who
wins this game anyway, because a lot is happening in

(43:13):
an NFC that really has no great team. There is
nobody of the ILK of the Lions of last year
or the Eagles of last year. Those two teams are
really a shell of their former selves. And so there's
the one team I would say maybe certainly has a

(43:34):
shot at beingcome one of those elite teams. The New
England Patriots have won like ten in a row something
like that. Nobody in the league has come close to
doing that. The Bears are a red hot team. They
won five in a row since starting zero to two.
They've won nine in their last ten. Nobody including the Rams,
have done that in the NFL NFC. So they've really
legitimately played the best of anybody over the last eleven

(43:56):
weeks in the league, and so it'll be interesting to
see how it all out. But it's going to be fascinating.
This Bears team has a lot going for it. They
just put two hundred and plus yards two hundred and
eighty one yards on the ground against Philadelphia, a team
that within the last three weeks have held the Packers
in check and the Lions in check, beating both of them,

(44:19):
and the Bears go in there and just dominated the
line of scrimmage in the big difference I see in
the Bears, Matt, they fixed the interior of their offensive line.
They've got two guards at a center who are really
playing well, and that is going to be strength upon
injury weakness for the Packers. The Packers lost Kenny Clark
in that trade with Dallas for Micah Parsons. Nobody's weeping

(44:41):
about that, but Kenny Clark was a significant figure defending
the run and rushing the quarterback on the interior of
the green Bay defensive line. He's gone. But here's the
other thing. The Packers can get away with that as
long as Devonte Wyatt was developing into a blue chip player,
and he was. Now he gets injured, lost for the season.
So the big question mark for green Bay defensively, how

(45:02):
do you shore up against the run on the interior,
because the Bears are coming right at them with Kyle
mananghai And and DeAndre Swift, They're coming right at him
and probably right between the tackles.

Speaker 4 (45:15):
Yeah, that's gonna be a fascinating game to watch. I
have to ask you before we move on here, how
surprised were you to see Matt Lafleur go for it
late in the game on fourth down near midfield, a
little page out of the Dan Campbell book. How surprised
were you to see them give it a whirl?

Speaker 3 (45:31):
Yeah, give it a whirl, and not only that throw
a pass, and but not only that, but the protection
broke down and Jordan Love had fling it, oh forirt
off his back foot. You know, yeah, I knew. And
Matt mentioned to his credit on our pregame show that
you know that this game would require them to be

(45:53):
aggressive both on the field and in terms of play calling.
You I think when he said aggressive, we got to
He said, we've got to be fish to go on
the field, we have to be aggressive, and he was
talking about play calling, and so to see them do that,
I thought, that's exactly what they had to do, and
really quick, Matt, I think some kudos to the Florida
his staff. Two very different games of play calling the

(46:17):
Minnesota game. I don't know if you're like this, but
I've been around this stuff so long I can tell
pretty much how the game is going to go two
series basically into the game unless you mess it up.
And there have been times when the Packers have done
that this year. Against Dallas against Cleveland. I could tell
the games is going to go Green Bay's way early
on in those two games, both that Cleveland and that Dallas.

(46:39):
But then the Packers did something special teams block punt
or field goal and not punt but extra point return
for a score in Dallas flipped the game, changed everything.
Same thing in Cleveland where a blocked extra point with
an interception.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
Late.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Those games flipped on situations like that. When they played
the Vikings, you could tell they had this thing in
hand two series in regardless of the score was might
have been seven nothing. But the only way they could
screw this up is to get help the Vikings. And
Lafleur didn't do that. He ran the football even though

(47:15):
they weren't that productive running it. They just kept maintain
ball control, didn't turn it over and took it away
a time or two down the road in that game.
And that was the formula against Minnesota. Very conservative. Oh
and by the way, settling for all those field goals,
that was actually getting their field goal kicker back in

(47:35):
the groove. I mean, yes, you know, I kept thinking
throughout that game. You know, yeah, they're settling for field goals.
The fans are booing and they're gonna get lit up
on social media, which they did. But you know this
is actually it's kind of like when you're putting and
your golfer and you're putting and you're missing putts, what
do you need to do? The first thing you need
to do is get up close to the hole, knock

(47:56):
the ball in, hear the ball drop into the bottom
of the hole. So the same thing with Brandon McManus,
who had struggled since coming back from his injury. Get him.
I don't care how close they were. Thirty two yard
field goal, chip shot field goals. Yeah, but he put
them through the uprights and boy, that's gonna make a
difference down the stretch. And he kicked really well in
Detroit as well, so you know, you got your field

(48:17):
goal kicker, which is a big part of the equation
late season on track again, or so it appears. Then
you go to Detroit and you got to be aggressive. Okay,
we're going forward and fourth down, Boom boom boom, we're
gonna be physical. We're gonna take take a take over
this game. That type of thing. I thought they got
the Lions best shot opening day. They did not get
the Lions best shot. And that was my point. That

(48:40):
opening day win was nice for the Packers, but they
didn't get the lions best shot. They got whatever the
Lions had left. They got it in this game, and
you know, the Packers prevailed. So I thought it was
a great win. And now, you know, we'll see where
the Packers go. They've won three in a row since
losing back to back games in lambeau Field. Their losses
to Dallas in Carolina are looking better and better. And

(49:03):
I mentioned Dallas being a lost because a tie, but
everybody felt like it was a loss in the Green
Bay organization. But nonetheless, those two teams are actually making
a bit, aren't they. Yeah, back then, Yeah, Panthers have been.

Speaker 4 (49:16):
They've been one of the surprise teams obviously in the league.
So yeah, we look forward to watching Packers Bears the
latest edition this weekend. I'll enjoy listening to you. I'm
done with football. There's a lot of basketball coming up, obviously,
but the Badgers wrapped up their season they needed to win,
and then I have a lot of other things happened
to be Bowl eligible. But that four wins, obviously, that's

(49:38):
all a moot point. Wayne We talked going into the game.
Wisconsin played better in November, two ranked teams that was
able to knock off in Washington and Illinois thought they
had something going for him. Going up to Minnesota last Saturday,
that was not the case. The offensive issues once again

(49:59):
became very evident. This is one of the least productive
offenses in the history of the program. Not the worst,
but among certainly in the conversation. When you're only scoring
a dozen points a game, and not even that in
Big Ten play, it would have been great for them
to win it, to get the trophy back here, to
get Paul Bunyan's ax, which is a big deal in
his rivalry, didn't happen. But regardless, you know, there are

(50:25):
times I think the word momentum and I'm guilty is charged.
I think the word momentum might be the most overused
word in sports, maybe within the course of a game,
but game to game, or in this case, one season
to the next. It would have been great to say, look,
you won three year, your last four after a very
very rough month of October, to say the least. But

(50:47):
the roster's going to look so much different next year
from the team that was on the field this year
full full of the Badgers. We're going to have guys
who leave. You're gonna have, obviously, guys whose eligibility are up,
and there are a number of players who are on
the field who are in that situation. So for Wisconsin
right now, it's about if you're looking to build momentum,

(51:10):
it's all about securing this high school class with the
signing period this Wednesday through Friday, the transfer portal which
is the second of January through the sixteenth, if I
have my dates right, and then see where you are,
see what your roster's gonna look like. When there's so
much in the world of college football right now, you

(51:30):
are seeing players flip their verbal commitments either from the
portal or with the high school, and a lot of
it now is transactional. I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm
just saying what's real. And you think you have a
player for X amount of money through reps share and

(51:50):
then whatever you think you can get for this player
through name, image and likeness, and then another school comes
up with the clock ticking saying well we can get you.
Yeah that plus this, So that's a if you're a
Wisconsin fan right now, or just a college sports fan
in general. There's gonna be a lot of transpires during

(52:12):
this week with the high school players, and certainly between
now and a month from now in the portal where
some guys you think you're gonna get, you're gonna lose,
and some you're gonna flip from whatever school he had
committed to and you're gonna get him in your place,
so that that roller coaster right continues. And then the
whole thing about momentum that's gonna be in the off

(52:33):
season whatever they can, you know, with springball, so on
and so forth. But this year to next year, I mean,
those are just much different stories.

Speaker 3 (52:41):
Yeah, man, I think it's really difficult as an old
school fan to follow this. And you know, we're not
talking about just programs folks that aren't going to playoffs
or bowl games where this turmoil is happening. In the
national championship tournament coming up, oh Miss will not have
their head coach. He's now at LSU Lane Kiffin. And

(53:03):
that bizarre thing that played out shows you that not
even the Blue b Lives, not even the teams that
are at the top of the game today are immune
to this. This transfer portal of both coaches and players,
and it makes for a bizarre type of situation. And
I wonder if we're really in the end getting the
best of college football here, no or not.

Speaker 4 (53:26):
And there's a lot of talk about the calendar, which
is screwed up. There's no question about that. Maybe the
portal should be a spring thing, maybe we should eliminate
December signing period or whatever. Okay, that's that's a part
of it. But if you're a Lane Kiffin, you don't
have to You didn't have to leave. Yeah, you didn't

(53:47):
have to take the LSU job. You could have stayed
there with your team which is going to be in
a national championship tournament.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
And as eleven to one, yeah yeah, but he didn't.

Speaker 4 (53:57):
And he has every right to make his move. But
it's going to go over very poorly obviously with all
miss fans. But just you know, the optics of it.
If you if you don't care about that, that's fine,
but it's it does speak to just how screwed up
this this is. I mean, it's like we were talking

(54:19):
to some folks a couple of weeks ago. You know,
if the Packers go on this run and never loses again,
in the regular season, but as you get into the playoffs,
Matt Lafor says, you know what, I think I got
a better chance if I move on to h to
the you name that team wherever that is. I want
to go from the Packers to some other NFL club

(54:40):
and coach them.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
And we got an opening. Yeah, yeah, go down to
Tennessee and LA so it's in hospitality ordinator there one time. Yeah,
I'll ask.

Speaker 4 (54:49):
The powers that be, you know, I'll still coach this
team through the playoffs. And which was what Lane Kiffen
wanted to do. And and you know he's going to
a conference rival, so no, they're not going to let
him do that. And now he's going to take us,
you know, his offensive staff with him. It just you know, again,
if you want to do that, fine, but you know,

(55:10):
I think a lot of these coaches need to get
off their high horse and and with players who are
going to make moves. Uh. You know, if you can't
finish what you start with the team that's going to
the playoffs, for crying out a loud, not not a
secondary bowl game, but to a championship tournament, then how
can we you know, throw up our hands in despair

(55:33):
when a player leaves in this situation, it's just in
the end we still watch. But man, is it it's muddy,
it is. It is a mud pit in many ways
right now.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
Yeah, I wish somehow they could get a handle line
up with the genies out of the bottle and she
ain't going back in, so no super happens will be
different in that regard. Well, Matt the best feature, by
the way, we were kidding about Matt Laflora and Tennessee
just for the yeah serious sounds he said, he's good
to No no, no, no, no, no, no, all right,

(56:07):
are the best feature we have on this program, folks,
is one that's not sponsored, matter of fact, not you
well at any rate. Former Badgers playing against the Packers.
Now we already covered the one ex Badger playing for
the Bears, right TJ. Edwards, who hasn't slaved the last
couple of weeks due to injury. But I believe he's
going to be back this week, So we've already done that. Man,

(56:29):
I can't think of any other Badgers to talk about
it this day to the game.

Speaker 4 (56:33):
No, I hope he's back. I you know again, it's
great at the Packers win again. Don't get me wrong
listening audience here, but I'm a fan of people. I
think as you are. You know people you follow them.
And TJ, as we mentioned in our last podcast, is
he was always a fun guy to talk to and
interviews or casual conversations, and it's been really fun to

(56:55):
watch his career blossom the way it has. So when
he and Jack Sambourne were together, that was a pretty
good duo, as Jeff jony I told us last year,
but you got TJ there, so yeah, that's the one
and only we'll see, you know, moving forward in the
Packers' schedule. You know, I'd watch the Steelers over the weekend.
I see Nick Herbig, I see Keanu Benton, obviously TJ Watts.

(57:16):
It's fun watching all of those guys. So I know
their team isn't great right now, but it's it's fun
to watch all those dudes. So yeah, we keep tracking
and I don't know how many additions will go in.
There'll be some I don't know how many will be
drafted off of this team, but you're going to have
guys who are going to get looks like a Ben
Bartner on the defensive line, Darryl Peterson outside linebacker, to

(57:40):
name a couple. Mason Reger edge player was really good
in his one year here. So hopefully this is a
tradition that will continue and maybe over the course of
time accelerate. Get more of these guys in the league.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
Sounds good and we'll talk. Hey, we get to talk
basketball next show, because yes, the football season is pretty
much behind us from a college standpoint, we're gonna start
focusing in on college basketball, really looking forward to it.
The season coming up, and we'll talk at that time.
Special thanks to our guest, Herb Gold, author of Lambeau,

(58:13):
The Epic Life of Earl Lewis. I didn't even notice
he had a name, Lewis. Earl Lewis Early Lambeau, the
man who invented the Green Bay Packers sort of or
founded him are both our engineer. Dave McCann, the executive
producer of the Lara Vi La Pay podcast on iHeart,
is Monica whitcop for Matthis is Wayne and we'll see

(58:33):
you next time on the Laravie La Pey Podcast.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
The Laravian La Pey podcast is a production of iHeartRadio
podcasts with hosts Way Larvy and Matt Lapey, with production
engineering by Dave McCann. The Laravian La Pey podcast is
presented by Potawatamy Casino Hotel.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Your Win Is Waiting.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
Listen to other episodes available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Eight