October 27, 2025 • 22 mins
Loren speaks with Tim Ross and former Miss Delaware USA 2023 Noa Mills about Church Hurt, the belief of “praying mental health illnesses away”, dealing with public exposure, and more in a fantastic conversation at Seeds of Greatness bible church in Wilmington Delaware, this past weekend.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I'm a homegrow that knows a little bit about everything
and everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
You know, if you don't lie about that?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Right, la Hey, y'all's up.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
It's Lauren and Rosa and this is the latest with
Laura and Rosa. This is your daily dig on all
things pop culture, entertainment, news and all of the conversations
that are shaking the room. Now today you guys will
be joining me in conversation that not only shakes the room,
but it is shaken the churches, the houses, and all
of the places because church yard is a real thing.
(00:32):
The belief that we can just pray something away, whether
it's mental health or you know, trauma and things that
we experience, those are real things and people are beginning
to talk about it. So I had the pleasure of
sitting down with Tim Rawls, who is a best selling
author and host of the popular podcast The Basement and
Wide Open from Inglewood, California. A lot of you guys
(00:54):
have probably seen his clips heard his voice before because
he gets the people going. So along with so Timbross
along with Noah Mills, former Miss Delaware, USA twenty twenty three,
who is a huge mental health advocate and helps to
bring you know, mental health practices and different purpose into
corporate structures. Those two together sat down. We had a
(01:17):
conversation shout out to Seaz the Greatness which is my
church home. And it was a very honest conversation too,
about what that really looks like when you put mental
health practices and you just start saying the word the
words I need help inside of church, especially in churches
where you know, people just don't think therapy or even
(01:37):
needing help is a thing because God in prayer cures
it all. Let's get on into the conversation. Let me
know what you guys think about this. I'm Loyland Rosa
everywhere I want to hear from you. Let's get on
into it.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Everybody, how you doing.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Well.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I've never been up here this part of church on
the stage, so this is a little different. But I'm
excited for this conversation today, so I'm going to hop
right on into it. Y'all feeling well?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Morn has been great.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I want to talk a little bit about church. When
I got the just the theme and kind of the
background of.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
This pandel that was the first thing I thought of.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
There's a lot of conversation happening right now because people
are able to talk about it more about when people
are disappointed by the church or people in the church,
and how that turns it away from the church. And
that makes me think about mental health because people probably
don't process it this way, but you're dealing with something
mentally that you know turns your way.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
So, Tim, I'm want to ask.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You, as a you know, a leader of the church, and.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
You know you have your platform or your podcast, when
you hear about church or and you're speaking to people
who are going through that, how do you make them
understand that it is a person in a place and
not something that you should carry every.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Single church did you go through So when somebody first
tells me about their church hurt, and if their reaction
is to the extreme like I never want to go
to church again, or see this is why I don't
go to church, my retort is always, have you ever.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Got food poisoning.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
You? Did you start eating at restaurants? Did you just
become a meal prepper and just stay home and just
I only eat my own rockey? Down for the speak,
mister Childs made me throw up, right.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I'm not dismissing the hurt, but we have conflated. What
has happened to spiritual leaders with God? And what it
lets me know is that you made an idol out
of your leader. If your faith in God has been
compromised by the person that you were following, then you
were You weren't following them as they following Christ. You
(03:58):
were following them and you deified them. And to deify
we talk about dehumanized dehumanization. We always talk about the
degradation of an individual. But to degrade or deify is
to dehumanize. To make somebody sub or to make somebody
(04:19):
more than.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Is to dehumanize either.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
Way, And so we have to calibrate the fact that
these are human beings that we hope have their own
connection with God and their private life, and if we've
been hurt by that person, we are dealing with a
mental health a mental health aspect which is grief, and
we have to go through all stages of that grief,
(04:45):
not just the disappointment and maybe the depression that comes
with that, but also the sadness and the anger processing
like I can't believe you did this to me. And
a lot of people in church feel like they cannot
express anger towards the person that has fallen because we're
quick to rush people to forgiveness, not knowing that in
(05:06):
the process to forgive is to experience.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Other emotions that come with it.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
So I have spiritual leaders that have disappointed me, and
it's been so crushing to hear some of the stuff
that they've gotten into or that has been exposed, and
I want.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
To punch them in the net.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
That's how I feel.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I'm not going to do it, but the throat chot
is enticing because I'm like, how had you given us
this Bible every weekend but it wasn't.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Being received by you? Or when did you stop eating
your own food that you was cooking for everybody else?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
So it's a process and people need safe spaces to
be able to process their emotions.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
So that would be my answer.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Thinking on the other side of that, right, because you
you've been a pastor before, you know you're leading so
many different things speaking to the leaders in the church.
How do you handle being a person that disappoints someone
in the church.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
What's your mental on that side of it? How do
you get through that and how do you heal that.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
For that person and often for yourself that you're able
to continue to lead.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Yeah, so anytime I have disappointed my congregation, which I
can give you a for instance, in twenty nineteen, that
was like the worst year of me being a pastor. Okay,
it was my fourth year pastor and eight people that
I loved that year died five or very close. Three
(06:45):
I had to eulogize. The youngest was a fifteen year
old girl of my friends.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Their daughter died of a brain tumor, and the church
had double I was sad.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
I'm not normally a very sad person, but that year
took its toll. And I'm not an exploder. I'm an imploder,
So I'm not gonna like loop. I'm not gonna crash out.
I'm gonna crash in. And the way my crash in looked,
don't judge me.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
I wanted.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
I wanted like words in our fouryer, like for the church,
and like just the culture code of everything that we
did in the church like And I had asked our
team to do it for two years it had done it.
So my implosion looked like on a Saturday night, going
to home depot, grabbing six kids of spray paint and
(07:42):
stray painting all the words that I ever wanted on
the church walls.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
By myself, by myself, unbeknownst to anybody else.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
And I had a guest speaker the next day, and
I didn't go to church that day.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
I went to somebody else's church. Oh great about the idea.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
I felt great. I felt great. A third of the
church thought it was like the dopestting, like, oh my godness,
look at all this. Two thirds of the church was like,
including my staff, was like, somebody vandalized our buildings. And
I was like, with our culture, like, this is a
dope vandal right, and it's me. And so Juliette was
(08:27):
pissed and the elders were angry, and I was like,
I don't see the big deal.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And then I had my devotion.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
On Monday, and I just happened to.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Be reading the Exodus about the way that he wanted
the Tabernacle to be built, and it said according to
my pattern. And the Holy Spirit said, Tim, what you
did to my house. So as soon as he like
differentiated whose house it was, I.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Was like, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
He was like, what you did to my house is
not according to my path. Next weekend was communion Sunday, so.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
I had to get up in front of all three
services and apologize and repent for what I had done.
Now and I had to just repent and shut up,
and I started talking about you know what happened, Saint.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
I just felt depreshed. And I haven't asking for these
for these words for two years. And my staff, no, no,
leaders have to take ownership for what they've done.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
In the same way that we make alter calls for
everybody else to come forward, there has to be room
at the alter for ourselves as well. And if the
congregation can come to the altar, leaders need to be
able to step off the.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Platform and come to the altar as well.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
The moment we make it for them and not us,
as the moment we wind up being duplicitous. And that's
what leads us to living double lives. I gave my
life to Jesus January fourteenth of nineteen ninety six. I
(10:12):
preached my first sermon February twenty fifth of nineteen ninety six.
I did not want to do that, and then I
kept being invited to speak. And it's been that way
for twenty nine and a half years. So as private
as I am and like to be, my life is
very public. So how does one calibrate not only when okay,
(10:36):
you're on the major platforms, but also you don't even
want to be there. You would rather not be known, right,
And so my dream was to be like the Christian
version of Clarence Avon. I just wanted to be the
shadowhand behind like all the preachers. And the Lord's like, no,
(10:57):
I need you to be on the platforms, and I'm like, ah.
So the way that I handle and mitigate all the
things is at number one, I don't have any social media.
I always had a love hate relationship on it. I
was on it, I was off it.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I hate it.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
So I'm off of it, and so I don't know
what's going.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
On in too, like meet somebody or talk to somebody,
which is like very nineties.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Like I have no idea what's going on until somebody
tells them.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I'm like what.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
I see my friend's kids and I never see them
on social media, so I don't get to see them
like grow up on social media.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I see them, I'm like, oh my god, I bro,
it's very nineties.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I have my time with the Lord every single morning, and.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
I really have not forgotten January fourteenth to ninety six, Like,
I'm legitimately not over the day that I gave my
life to Jesus. So all of this is cool, But
if this was the last platform I was ever on,
(12:18):
I'm gucci, I ever needs to be nowhere. Everything besides
January fourteenth, nineteen ninety six has been a.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Nice little bonus. It has not been a requirement.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
He's really been good to me, and I'm very grateful
in his faithfulness in my life.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And so that's my answer. That a final question.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And both of you guys answered this, But them you said,
you know, God doesn't give you like an intro meeting
before he's like, hey, this is what I want you
to do.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Can you talk a bit about when you guys, you know,
I don't even.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Know if you feel your purpose or you're just in
the moment and it's like, ooh, I think that this
is thing.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
When that hits, that's you.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Feel good, and there's kind of almost like a I
feel complete feeling. But sometimes there are often feelings of
like am I doing enough? Am I doing it right?
Am I impacting people?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
You know what I mean? And there's a mental weight
that that comes with.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Can you talk about that as well, because I think
in church you hear a lot about faith and purpose
and you know, alignment, but people don't talk about the
heaviness of alignment and purpose and you know, walking.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
With her path. Yeah, so.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
This season, the last three years of my life have
been like all together, like beautiful and really frustrated.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Right. So, like.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Three and a half years ago, I was known in
some like Christian circles and I had like thirty two
thousand followers on Instagram, and I was like, that's a
small city.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I'm hyped, right, And then three and a half years later,
it's like are you a dude with the yellow glasses?
And I'm stopped in the airports in different countries and
I'm like you watch you.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Too, like you got over here.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
And so.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
That's still weird to me.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
And because I lived in the Bible Belt and everything,
all of the ministry that grew was in the Bible Belt,
I felt this heaviness that I just got to break
through one last week in New York City, Like this
is brand new, Okay, So y'all last week when I
was in New York City, right, I was preaching at
(14:46):
this church, my.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Own business right.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And so what happened was.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
After I was preaching, I was talking to two people
that lived in New York and they were like, we
might want to do a show with you, and I
was like.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
That sounds scary. So they were like, you have no
idea how effective.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
You are and how many people that are unbelievers listen
to you.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
And one of the dudes started.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Crying and he was like like, we need you here,
and I was like, Joe, I think wait a minute.
Like it was like they were telling me how effective
I have been, and I was like, I haven't felt
like that because I've been fighting.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
With people.
Speaker 6 (15:33):
And trying to convince people that don't understand my assignment
and don't want to know my assignment that this is
my assignment.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, And then I was.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
Like, wait a minute, I've been trying to convince the
wrong people in the wrong region. Like I was like, oh,
of course in the Bible Belt, you mad that I
cult because.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
You're in the Bible Belt. But New York don't care.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Yeah, California don't care, Chicago don't care, port stars don't care,
entertainers don't care, NBA players don't care.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
All these different people don't care. So that good old
cal Dan.
Speaker 6 (16:13):
Tom doesn't belong to Texas.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
And I have been fighting this fight for the last three.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Years with people that are already saying, I'm.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Like, why do you even care?
Speaker 4 (16:29):
You're already going to heaven.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I'm trying to get your brandchild who don't listen to
your sermons, but they listen to my clips.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
So I got free last week. Good feelings. It feels good.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
It feels good.
Speaker 6 (16:50):
But I have to acknowledge that for twenty seven years
I was serving in the church, so I really wanted
church people to get my assignment me and then I
was and now now I should have known because Pj's
my mentor.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
That's why I'm here.
Speaker 6 (17:05):
PJ, I've been at Seeds. I am proud to say
I've been at Seeds for twenty four twenty five of
these years ago, you know what I'm saying. And PJ
didn't bring me in when I was a preacher. He
brought me in when I was doing stand up comedy.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
He's seen every single version of.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
Me and has still supported me and prayed for me
and encouraged me.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
To so into me.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
So don't nobody say nothing bad about drome with a senior,
and I will dump that off'na be too far.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I love me introverts like you that just sent up
the things going. You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I like to get a cracking and then leaves and
I'm mad.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
I'm not bad at that. I let just die. Let
just die. I don't know if you had anything you
wanted to add. No, No you didn't, Yeah you didn't.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
That up, lady.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
This is a really straightforward question for both of you, guys.
How can churches better partner with programs advocate advocacy organizations,
mental health organizations?
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Because this is.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
New for a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Not all churches are progressive, So how can they better partner?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
And how do they start?
Speaker 6 (18:32):
Like?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Is it one small step?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Is it? You jump right in? There's a mental health hotline?
Like what should they do? And how should they do it?
Speaker 7 (18:39):
I think the beauty of it is that there's no
long way to do it. Sincerely, one of the things
that I really do love about this pretend through their
time in our lives is just that there's so the
conversations is not tabling anymore, Like we could just do
away with that. There's sincerely has just been less and
less less of a stigma associated with the honesty that
(19:02):
people do deal with things in their mind medically, mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally,
and sincerely. You can put your heads together and a
meeting to set up a production. We can put our
heads together in a meeting to set up a hob
hotline for people to struggle. If the lands together for
everything else about who should tie and who should go wear,
and who should wear what and where suppress that can stand.
(19:25):
We can talk to one another about how we want
to facilitate conversations.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
In the church.
Speaker 7 (19:30):
We're supposed to be the epicenter for the solutions that
we desire.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
They're not supposed to be looking for them or waiting
for Sione to come do it.
Speaker 7 (19:38):
If you have questions about something, answer it first, prey
God answer it, and then become that solution. There's a
lot of the things that I think, what is my
personal frustration in the church. It's just that there is
a wait for an outside answer. You don't have to oh,
well so and so every complaint you have is an
(20:01):
action for you to find an answer. If you don't
like something that needs God gave it to you to
go fix, to go find, to go bi solution to
that issue. Every single thing that we have problem with,
we also have the understanding to provide a solution to.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So I think in.
Speaker 7 (20:17):
Churches as far as starting, find a faith based PCP
that you can bring it into your church to talk
to your people. Find a faith based therapist that you
can bring it into your church to talk to people.
Have you have a list on your site for everybody's
name and face. Put some therapists that you have in
your church on the website. Put some hotlines on the website.
(20:39):
Figure out how to connect with your community leaders. Your
community leadership know what church you're at, how they need
to connect with you, what they need to be doing,
because teens to be they only know what you tell them.
I can't help you with funding this year where we're
talking about where it needs to go for your members,
for who they need to be connected with it.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I don't know that there's a problem. So we can sick,
we can communicate, we.
Speaker 7 (21:02):
Can, you know, figure out what it is that we
need to do, but also make it our responsibility to
do it.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
I just want to I just want to please Papa.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I want to co sign.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
When I was a lead pastor, I did a series
on mental health, and we had at the end of
every single service, we had information to two counseling centers
that we knew the owners personally, so and I have
been a client of one of them. So I was
(21:38):
doing out of the twenty nine and a half years
that I've been a believer in Jesus, I've been in
therapy for twenty seven It's.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
The reason why I haven't shot nobody.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
The reason why I'm telling you, it's the reason why
I haven't gone off with nobody.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
You know what I'm saying. It's the reason why I haven't.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Turned full Cat Williams on the Church. I'm being real serious.
If I ever win Cat Williams of the Church, I'll
scorch you. They would have to.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
They wouldn't have service tomorrow if I went off.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
I'm Laurna Rosa. This is the latest with Laura Rosa.
At the end of the day, I tell you, guys,
every episode my Lowriders, y'all could be anywhere with anybody
having a conversation about this, but y'all choose to be
right here with me. I appreciate y'all for that. I
will catch you in my next episode.
I'm a homegrow that knows a little bit about everything
and everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
You know, if you don't lie about that?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Right, la Hey, y'all's up.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
It's Lauren and Rosa and this is the latest with
Laura and Rosa. This is your daily dig on all
things pop culture, entertainment, news and all of the conversations
that are shaking the room. Now today you guys will
be joining me in conversation that not only shakes the room,
but it is shaken the churches, the houses, and all
of the places because church yard is a real thing.
(00:32):
The belief that we can just pray something away, whether
it's mental health or you know, trauma and things that
we experience, those are real things and people are beginning
to talk about it. So I had the pleasure of
sitting down with Tim Rawls, who is a best selling
author and host of the popular podcast The Basement and
Wide Open from Inglewood, California. A lot of you guys
(00:54):
have probably seen his clips heard his voice before because
he gets the people going. So along with so Timbross
along with Noah Mills, former Miss Delaware, USA twenty twenty three,
who is a huge mental health advocate and helps to
bring you know, mental health practices and different purpose into
corporate structures. Those two together sat down. We had a
(01:17):
conversation shout out to Seaz the Greatness which is my
church home. And it was a very honest conversation too,
about what that really looks like when you put mental
health practices and you just start saying the word the
words I need help inside of church, especially in churches
where you know, people just don't think therapy or even
(01:37):
needing help is a thing because God in prayer cures
it all. Let's get on into the conversation. Let me
know what you guys think about this. I'm Loyland Rosa
everywhere I want to hear from you. Let's get on
into it.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Everybody, how you doing.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Well.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I've never been up here this part of church on
the stage, so this is a little different. But I'm
excited for this conversation today, so I'm going to hop
right on into it. Y'all feeling well?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Morn has been great.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I want to talk a little bit about church. When
I got the just the theme and kind of the
background of.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
This pandel that was the first thing I thought of.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
There's a lot of conversation happening right now because people
are able to talk about it more about when people
are disappointed by the church or people in the church,
and how that turns it away from the church. And
that makes me think about mental health because people probably
don't process it this way, but you're dealing with something
mentally that you know turns your way.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
So, Tim, I'm want to ask.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You, as a you know, a leader of the church, and.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
You know you have your platform or your podcast, when
you hear about church or and you're speaking to people
who are going through that, how do you make them
understand that it is a person in a place and
not something that you should carry every.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Single church did you go through So when somebody first
tells me about their church hurt, and if their reaction
is to the extreme like I never want to go
to church again, or see this is why I don't
go to church, my retort is always, have you ever.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Got food poisoning.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
You? Did you start eating at restaurants? Did you just
become a meal prepper and just stay home and just
I only eat my own rockey? Down for the speak,
mister Childs made me throw up, right.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I'm not dismissing the hurt, but we have conflated. What
has happened to spiritual leaders with God? And what it
lets me know is that you made an idol out
of your leader. If your faith in God has been
compromised by the person that you were following, then you
were You weren't following them as they following Christ. You
(03:58):
were following them and you deified them. And to deify
we talk about dehumanized dehumanization. We always talk about the
degradation of an individual. But to degrade or deify is
to dehumanize. To make somebody sub or to make somebody
(04:19):
more than.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Is to dehumanize either.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
Way, And so we have to calibrate the fact that
these are human beings that we hope have their own
connection with God and their private life, and if we've
been hurt by that person, we are dealing with a
mental health a mental health aspect which is grief, and
we have to go through all stages of that grief,
(04:45):
not just the disappointment and maybe the depression that comes
with that, but also the sadness and the anger processing
like I can't believe you did this to me. And
a lot of people in church feel like they cannot
express anger towards the person that has fallen because we're
quick to rush people to forgiveness, not knowing that in
(05:06):
the process to forgive is to experience.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Other emotions that come with it.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
So I have spiritual leaders that have disappointed me, and
it's been so crushing to hear some of the stuff
that they've gotten into or that has been exposed, and
I want.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
To punch them in the net.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
That's how I feel.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I'm not going to do it, but the throat chot
is enticing because I'm like, how had you given us
this Bible every weekend but it wasn't.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Being received by you? Or when did you stop eating
your own food that you was cooking for everybody else?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
So it's a process and people need safe spaces to
be able to process their emotions.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
So that would be my answer.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Thinking on the other side of that, right, because you
you've been a pastor before, you know you're leading so
many different things speaking to the leaders in the church.
How do you handle being a person that disappoints someone
in the church.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
What's your mental on that side of it? How do
you get through that and how do you heal that.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
For that person and often for yourself that you're able
to continue to lead.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Yeah, so anytime I have disappointed my congregation, which I
can give you a for instance, in twenty nineteen, that
was like the worst year of me being a pastor. Okay,
it was my fourth year pastor and eight people that
I loved that year died five or very close. Three
(06:45):
I had to eulogize. The youngest was a fifteen year
old girl of my friends.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Their daughter died of a brain tumor, and the church
had double I was sad.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
I'm not normally a very sad person, but that year
took its toll. And I'm not an exploder. I'm an imploder,
So I'm not gonna like loop. I'm not gonna crash out.
I'm gonna crash in. And the way my crash in looked,
don't judge me.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
I wanted.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
I wanted like words in our fouryer, like for the church,
and like just the culture code of everything that we
did in the church like And I had asked our
team to do it for two years it had done it.
So my implosion looked like on a Saturday night, going
to home depot, grabbing six kids of spray paint and
(07:42):
stray painting all the words that I ever wanted on
the church walls.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
By myself, by myself, unbeknownst to anybody else.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
And I had a guest speaker the next day, and
I didn't go to church that day.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
I went to somebody else's church. Oh great about the idea.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
I felt great. I felt great. A third of the
church thought it was like the dopestting, like, oh my godness,
look at all this. Two thirds of the church was like,
including my staff, was like, somebody vandalized our buildings. And
I was like, with our culture, like, this is a
dope vandal right, and it's me. And so Juliette was
(08:27):
pissed and the elders were angry, and I was like,
I don't see the big deal.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And then I had my devotion.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
On Monday, and I just happened to.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Be reading the Exodus about the way that he wanted
the Tabernacle to be built, and it said according to
my pattern. And the Holy Spirit said, Tim, what you
did to my house. So as soon as he like
differentiated whose house it was, I.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Was like, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
He was like, what you did to my house is
not according to my path. Next weekend was communion Sunday, so.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
I had to get up in front of all three
services and apologize and repent for what I had done.
Now and I had to just repent and shut up,
and I started talking about you know what happened, Saint.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
I just felt depreshed. And I haven't asking for these
for these words for two years. And my staff, no, no,
leaders have to take ownership for what they've done.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
In the same way that we make alter calls for
everybody else to come forward, there has to be room
at the alter for ourselves as well. And if the
congregation can come to the altar, leaders need to be
able to step off the.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Platform and come to the altar as well.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
The moment we make it for them and not us,
as the moment we wind up being duplicitous. And that's
what leads us to living double lives. I gave my
life to Jesus January fourteenth of nineteen ninety six. I
(10:12):
preached my first sermon February twenty fifth of nineteen ninety six.
I did not want to do that, and then I
kept being invited to speak. And it's been that way
for twenty nine and a half years. So as private
as I am and like to be, my life is
very public. So how does one calibrate not only when okay,
(10:36):
you're on the major platforms, but also you don't even
want to be there. You would rather not be known, right,
And so my dream was to be like the Christian
version of Clarence Avon. I just wanted to be the
shadowhand behind like all the preachers. And the Lord's like, no,
(10:57):
I need you to be on the platforms, and I'm like, ah.
So the way that I handle and mitigate all the
things is at number one, I don't have any social media.
I always had a love hate relationship on it. I
was on it, I was off it.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I hate it.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
So I'm off of it, and so I don't know
what's going.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
On in too, like meet somebody or talk to somebody,
which is like very nineties.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Like I have no idea what's going on until somebody
tells them.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I'm like what.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
I see my friend's kids and I never see them
on social media, so I don't get to see them
like grow up on social media.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I see them, I'm like, oh my god, I bro,
it's very nineties.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I have my time with the Lord every single morning, and.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
I really have not forgotten January fourteenth to ninety six, Like,
I'm legitimately not over the day that I gave my
life to Jesus. So all of this is cool, But
if this was the last platform I was ever on,
(12:18):
I'm gucci, I ever needs to be nowhere. Everything besides
January fourteenth, nineteen ninety six has been a.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Nice little bonus. It has not been a requirement.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
He's really been good to me, and I'm very grateful
in his faithfulness in my life.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And so that's my answer. That a final question.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And both of you guys answered this, But them you said,
you know, God doesn't give you like an intro meeting
before he's like, hey, this is what I want you
to do.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Can you talk a bit about when you guys, you know,
I don't even.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Know if you feel your purpose or you're just in
the moment and it's like, ooh, I think that this
is thing.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
When that hits, that's you.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Feel good, and there's kind of almost like a I
feel complete feeling. But sometimes there are often feelings of
like am I doing enough? Am I doing it right?
Am I impacting people?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
You know what I mean? And there's a mental weight
that that comes with.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Can you talk about that as well, because I think
in church you hear a lot about faith and purpose
and you know, alignment, but people don't talk about the
heaviness of alignment and purpose and you know, walking.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
With her path. Yeah, so.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
This season, the last three years of my life have
been like all together, like beautiful and really frustrated.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Right. So, like.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Three and a half years ago, I was known in
some like Christian circles and I had like thirty two
thousand followers on Instagram, and I was like, that's a
small city.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I'm hyped, right, And then three and a half years later,
it's like are you a dude with the yellow glasses?
And I'm stopped in the airports in different countries and
I'm like you watch you.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Too, like you got over here.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
And so.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
That's still weird to me.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
And because I lived in the Bible Belt and everything,
all of the ministry that grew was in the Bible Belt,
I felt this heaviness that I just got to break
through one last week in New York City, Like this
is brand new, Okay, So y'all last week when I
was in New York City, right, I was preaching at
(14:46):
this church, my.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Own business right.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And so what happened was.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
After I was preaching, I was talking to two people
that lived in New York and they were like, we
might want to do a show with you, and I
was like.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
That sounds scary. So they were like, you have no
idea how effective.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
You are and how many people that are unbelievers listen
to you.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
And one of the dudes started.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Crying and he was like like, we need you here,
and I was like, Joe, I think wait a minute.
Like it was like they were telling me how effective
I have been, and I was like, I haven't felt
like that because I've been fighting.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
With people.
Speaker 6 (15:33):
And trying to convince people that don't understand my assignment
and don't want to know my assignment that this is
my assignment.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, And then I was.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
Like, wait a minute, I've been trying to convince the
wrong people in the wrong region. Like I was like, oh,
of course in the Bible Belt, you mad that I
cult because.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
You're in the Bible Belt. But New York don't care.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Yeah, California don't care, Chicago don't care, port stars don't care,
entertainers don't care, NBA players don't care.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
All these different people don't care. So that good old
cal Dan.
Speaker 6 (16:13):
Tom doesn't belong to Texas.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
And I have been fighting this fight for the last three.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Years with people that are already saying, I'm.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Like, why do you even care?
Speaker 4 (16:29):
You're already going to heaven.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I'm trying to get your brandchild who don't listen to
your sermons, but they listen to my clips.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
So I got free last week. Good feelings. It feels good.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
It feels good.
Speaker 6 (16:50):
But I have to acknowledge that for twenty seven years
I was serving in the church, so I really wanted
church people to get my assignment me and then I
was and now now I should have known because Pj's
my mentor.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
That's why I'm here.
Speaker 6 (17:05):
PJ, I've been at Seeds. I am proud to say
I've been at Seeds for twenty four twenty five of
these years ago, you know what I'm saying. And PJ
didn't bring me in when I was a preacher. He
brought me in when I was doing stand up comedy.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
He's seen every single version of.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
Me and has still supported me and prayed for me
and encouraged me.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
To so into me.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
So don't nobody say nothing bad about drome with a senior,
and I will dump that off'na be too far.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I love me introverts like you that just sent up
the things going. You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I like to get a cracking and then leaves and
I'm mad.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
I'm not bad at that. I let just die. Let
just die. I don't know if you had anything you
wanted to add. No, No you didn't, Yeah you didn't.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
That up, lady.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
This is a really straightforward question for both of you, guys.
How can churches better partner with programs advocate advocacy organizations,
mental health organizations?
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Because this is.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
New for a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Not all churches are progressive, So how can they better partner?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
And how do they start?
Speaker 6 (18:32):
Like?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Is it one small step?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Is it? You jump right in? There's a mental health hotline?
Like what should they do? And how should they do it?
Speaker 7 (18:39):
I think the beauty of it is that there's no
long way to do it. Sincerely, one of the things
that I really do love about this pretend through their
time in our lives is just that there's so the
conversations is not tabling anymore, Like we could just do
away with that. There's sincerely has just been less and
less less of a stigma associated with the honesty that
(19:02):
people do deal with things in their mind medically, mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally,
and sincerely. You can put your heads together and a
meeting to set up a production. We can put our
heads together in a meeting to set up a hob
hotline for people to struggle. If the lands together for
everything else about who should tie and who should go wear,
and who should wear what and where suppress that can stand.
(19:25):
We can talk to one another about how we want
to facilitate conversations.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
In the church.
Speaker 7 (19:30):
We're supposed to be the epicenter for the solutions that
we desire.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
They're not supposed to be looking for them or waiting
for Sione to come do it.
Speaker 7 (19:38):
If you have questions about something, answer it first, prey
God answer it, and then become that solution. There's a
lot of the things that I think, what is my
personal frustration in the church. It's just that there is
a wait for an outside answer. You don't have to oh,
well so and so every complaint you have is an
(20:01):
action for you to find an answer. If you don't
like something that needs God gave it to you to
go fix, to go find, to go bi solution to
that issue. Every single thing that we have problem with,
we also have the understanding to provide a solution to.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So I think in.
Speaker 7 (20:17):
Churches as far as starting, find a faith based PCP
that you can bring it into your church to talk
to your people. Find a faith based therapist that you
can bring it into your church to talk to people.
Have you have a list on your site for everybody's
name and face. Put some therapists that you have in
your church on the website. Put some hotlines on the website.
(20:39):
Figure out how to connect with your community leaders. Your
community leadership know what church you're at, how they need
to connect with you, what they need to be doing,
because teens to be they only know what you tell them.
I can't help you with funding this year where we're
talking about where it needs to go for your members,
for who they need to be connected with it.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I don't know that there's a problem. So we can sick,
we can communicate, we.
Speaker 7 (21:02):
Can, you know, figure out what it is that we
need to do, but also make it our responsibility to
do it.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
I just want to I just want to please Papa.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I want to co sign.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
When I was a lead pastor, I did a series
on mental health, and we had at the end of
every single service, we had information to two counseling centers
that we knew the owners personally, so and I have
been a client of one of them. So I was
(21:38):
doing out of the twenty nine and a half years
that I've been a believer in Jesus, I've been in
therapy for twenty seven It's.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
The reason why I haven't shot nobody.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
The reason why I'm telling you, it's the reason why
I haven't gone off with nobody.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
You know what I'm saying. It's the reason why I haven't.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Turned full Cat Williams on the Church. I'm being real serious.
If I ever win Cat Williams of the Church, I'll
scorch you. They would have to.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
They wouldn't have service tomorrow if I went off.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
I'm Laurna Rosa. This is the latest with Laura Rosa.
At the end of the day, I tell you, guys,
every episode my Lowriders, y'all could be anywhere with anybody
having a conversation about this, but y'all choose to be
right here with me. I appreciate y'all for that. I
will catch you in my next episode.
Host
Loren LoRosa
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