Jenn Drummond - What Is Awe

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The following is a paid podcast. iHeartRadio's hosting of this
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Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to the Man in the Arena, where bold conversations,
real challenges, and unstoppable determination takes setter stage. This is
the show that brings you unfiltered insights from leaders, visionaries,
and everyday warriors who refuse to sit on the sidelines.
Join the movement brought to you by Life Fact, the
airway clearance device that has now saved over thirty five

(00:31):
hundred lives in thirty nine countries. Go to lifefac dot
net get the original authentic Life Fact. Use code MIITA
for discounts on protecting those you love. Teddy Roosevelt said
it best. It is not the critical accounts, not the
man who points out how the strong man stumbles. The
credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.

(00:52):
What inspired Arthur Lee protecting his daughter and then the
world's success Leaves Clues will explore each chapter of authors,
Sorry can't is a lie, and hear from other men
and women in their arenas. Get ready to be inspired.
Welcome to the Man in the Arena. I'm Rick Thatcher.
Along with Arthur Lee, today's guest is someone who redefines

(01:14):
what it means to take on the impossible. Jen Drummond
is a mother of seven let's stop right there, Yeah right,
stop right there, A driven entrepreneur, a mountaineer who has
scaled some of the daunting peaks in the world. But
her story is more than just about climbing mountains. It's
about resilience, reinvention, and refusing to let life's toughest challenges

(01:35):
keep her down. After surviving a near fatal car accident,
Jen made a promise to herself and her family she
would live fully, chase bold dreams, and show her children
and the world what it looks like to rise above
after being knocked down.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
You know about that.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
That promise led her all the way to the top
of Mount Everest. In this episode, we dive into gens
incredible journey, the lessons she learned on the mountain and
in motherhood, and what it takes to push past few
and how each of us can find the courage to
face the mountains in our own lives. She's also the
author of a great book called break Proof. Seven Strategies

(02:09):
to Build resilience and achieve your life Skoal amazing woman.

Speaker 4 (02:13):
Amazing and this is the foundation. You know, these things
fermented in my head. So I was at networking ding
and they met her and asked her what it was
like to stand on top of Everest and she glowed
and explained the awe. And for this episode, what stuck
in my head was that word awe.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
What is awe?

Speaker 5 (02:35):
Right now?

Speaker 4 (02:37):
It's not easy to climb ever, it's not easy to
take a device and save lives and the work that
can go into awe. Then there was, you know, the
birth of Jackie, and I still remember coming out and
seeing her for the first time.

Speaker 5 (02:50):
That was awe.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
Right, So I.

Speaker 4 (02:52):
Guess when I want to And you know the theme
here of her build resilience and achieve your life goals
seven strategies. The book is kind of that. It's kind
of lessons that taught us how to build our strategies right,
our foundations.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
You're comparing it to your book?

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, sorry, can't is a lie, which, of course we
should always mention. Life fact dot net go get yourself
a copy, and while you're there, be prepared for a
drunk emergency. Get your own life Act the original life
fact dot net use code mit A and could protect
those of plug.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
We got a plug once in a while.

Speaker 4 (03:27):
But the point is that AWE takes effort a lot
of times. I mean, you know, yeah, birthday of child.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Wasn't easy to get there, and that's what builds into yeah,
the moment.

Speaker 4 (03:37):
And I think, you know, and with her when I
was looking at her and she was describing that moment
and in my and I was backtracking how difficult it
is to get to the top averse, right, which she'll
elaborate on, and I think we delve into some of
the other effort that goes into these achievements. You know,
I have to watch a lot of this news TV.

(03:59):
It drives me crazy because our commercial runs and I
try and monitor it and make sure it's good and
make sure we're doing okay.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
And it's pretty much all crap.

Speaker 4 (04:07):
It's unbelievable crap, and it really is like almost painful,
And we have all these people giving opinions on things
that they didn't do and scrutinizing other people, and in
the arena is about people that actually have a life
that was built out of tragedy, out of effort, that

(04:29):
can help people, right, And I thought, in the back
of our heads, milk gens too. Oh right, give me
the ab one, come stop your head or a moment
of awe.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
When you describe seeing your daughter Jackie for the first time,
I immediately thought of my first daughter, Ryan, who was premature,
and it was I couldn't I couldn't speak.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
Yeah, I really couldn't speak. Yeah, I just got my
hairs to it. Because Jackie was cea sex. She popped
out and I swear she was looking at me and smiling,
and I was in awe. But I don't think there's
I think all is its own category. I don't think
it has degrees. It hits you. It's kind of like love.
You know, it hits you. And when we wrote into

(05:11):
the seventy, you got that feeling now having a baby,
an easy getting there, you know, the seven hours in
the van seeing So I think, Jen, I know that
we didn't prep you on this. So I think we
bring her in and I certainly want to.

Speaker 5 (05:31):
Explore a lot of her character.

Speaker 4 (05:33):
Because she certainly is a person of incredible character and courage,
which I think also is necessary to achieve awe.

Speaker 5 (05:43):
Did you did Hi? How are you hi?

Speaker 6 (05:45):
Friends, how are you?

Speaker 5 (05:47):
God? Did you remember the moment when I asked you?

Speaker 6 (05:50):
And you kind of explain that I do remember that moment,
and it's a moment I live often because there's moments
of non awe in our lives. We have to touch
those moments of aught to remind ourselves that this is
part of the journey.

Speaker 4 (06:04):
Now, how difficult was you know, you've you've climbed seven summits,
but Everest is, like, you know, everyone knows, right, how
difficult was that?

Speaker 6 (06:13):
Compared to the other mountains that I had to climb?
Everest is one of the easier mountains, which I know
is hard for people to hear, but yeah, okay. And
the reason why it's easy is because it's been so commercialized.
So there's so many teams and so many resources, and

(06:34):
it's been done so many ways that they've reiterated and
reiterated and reiterated to this smooth running machine that they have.
You have teams running oxygen, you have teams running rope,
you have teams running tents, you have teams running ladders.
You have so much that's all calculated and figured out
that for me as a climber, I just need to
show up now.

Speaker 4 (06:56):
Backing up to the Ore Foundation, give me an Everest
awe top.

Speaker 5 (07:02):
Of your head.

Speaker 6 (07:03):
Yeah, you know I could sound like. My first mountain
was Ahma de Blom, which is located in a pall
on the way to Everest. It's probably one of the
most photogenic mountains in the world. And that being your first, right,
there's something magical about your first experience of seeing everything.
And I just remember getting to the top of that
mountain and thinking, Wow, humans are capable of so much

(07:29):
more than we think, because on the way up that
mountain there was at least a thousand times I wanted
to turn around and quit, right, And I'm like, I'm
so glad I didn't. And so you sit up there
and you're just bathe in the fact that we continue what.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
We're click in your head with them, because I know
I had many in life back journey that wasn't an option.
As the famous Apollo line goes, what pushed you forward,
like when you said I don't know if I can
do this?

Speaker 5 (07:59):
What am I doing? What made you keep going?

Speaker 6 (08:02):
I would always make myself take one more step, And
if I could take one more step, then I knew
whatever wanted me to quit was bs and you know,
and so I was like, oh, well, yeah right. And
when you climb enough, you realize your body is designed
to keep you like safe and extra energy reserves and
all the little details. So for me it was like, oh,

(08:23):
my body thinks I'm done. I still have sixty percent left,
so we're good. We're going to keep going. And then
you you make it about something bigger than yourself. For
me it was very much I need to climb to
the top of this mountain to show moms that we
are allowed to chase our goals and be mothers and
have all the other roles that we have and enjoy it.

(08:44):
And so if I don't get up there and show
them that, who is.

Speaker 5 (08:48):
Well on you? Right now? The effort to awe? Do
you see that?

Speaker 6 (08:53):
Always?

Speaker 5 (08:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (08:55):
Always, Because to me, awe is this moment where you
feel the breath of society, Like all the emotions that
are available to us, you feel it in one moment.
And to bring it back to you, when your daughter
was born, you're just an awe, Like this human that

(09:15):
I created is here and healthy and fingers and toes
and like all these bodies, like all the things.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Unless than nine months didn't prepare you for it, right,
That's what I said. It was like we were thinking
about We've been thinking about this for nine months at least,
and now this words doesn't do it justice.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
The feelings are just overwhelming.

Speaker 6 (09:37):
Yeah, they leak out your eyes.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, do you mind?

Speaker 2 (09:40):
Do you mind going back to what inspired you to
take these incredible feats?

Speaker 4 (09:46):
Oh? You did a one eighty in life to some extent,
And I think that sounds my interpretation that the accident
kind of woke up and said what am I doing?

Speaker 5 (09:56):
What I need to live a life of.

Speaker 6 (10:00):
Significance?

Speaker 4 (10:01):
Yeah, because I was struggling and that wasn't I was
going and venture, but that's not what you did.

Speaker 6 (10:07):
No, because my life before the car accident was success.
Like I had the houses, I had the cars, I
had the children, I had the numbers, and you know,
the zeros in the bank account, and all of a
sudden I realized, like what does that even matter? Like
who even defines what success is? And to me, it
was all about No, life's about significance. It's about leaving

(10:27):
legacy and impacting others and making their lives better because
you existed. And that really made me get out of
this accumulation game into the Impact game.

Speaker 5 (10:39):
And what how'd you pick climbing a mountain?

Speaker 6 (10:42):
I mean it was I mean I look at it
and I think it was pretty random. But I think
the universe does random for us at times. And I
was looking at things I was interested in doing before
I died, because all of a sudden death was real,
and I'm like, I need to climb a mountain. I
live in the mountains, I live in Park City. I've
never climbed a mountain, and so I'm one of those
people that goes as Big or go Home. And I

(11:04):
asked friends of them, if you could climb one mountain
in the world, what would you climb? And they recommended
a mountain nmed Don with the blom that got elevated
to Everest and then my coach elevated it to setting
a world record.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (11:15):
Now, when you were on top of the first one,
and you know, I noticed you had the picture of
your family on Everest.

Speaker 5 (11:22):
I didn't see on top of every.

Speaker 6 (11:24):
One of them, every mountain. I took a picture of
my kids up to the top.

Speaker 4 (11:27):
When you on the first one, right where you're kind
of set something almost impossible in your sights to accomplish
you had thought about not, you know, giving up. I
would like to stand there with them kind of the
accumulation of life's or you're seven kids, yea in that mountain,

(11:48):
Like when you looked at their picture and looked at
what you did, did you get a kind of a
accumulation feeling?

Speaker 6 (11:56):
Definitely, Because when it got hard, sometimes I would dedicate
fifteen minutes to a child and I would just send
prayers and memories and good stories to them, even though
they were seventy five hundred miles away. And then I
would go to the next child to just get out
of my own way and just continue to climb and
think about other people. And so when I got to
the top, I'm like, how amazing it is? Is it

(12:19):
that I have these seven humans I get to call
me mom? And if I'm capable of doing this, they're superhumans.
I can't even wait to see what they're capable of doing.
And it just restored this faith in humanity that we
are so connected and so capable, and I'm so inspired
to see how they take their life and what they

(12:39):
decide to do with it.

Speaker 4 (12:40):
Do you think I know for me, I felt that
my you know, I was a good parent, I believe,
and I was a good coach. I think you know,
I was the same similar I had the zero's and
I was retiring at forty seven, but this was a
different mission. You know, do you think it's made you
better parent?

Speaker 6 (13:01):
A thousand? I think there's like zero question. And the
fun thing about climbing mountains later on in life and
being a beginner later on in life is that my
kids are beginners right now, and so when they're struggling
with their math homework, I'm like, yeah, I'm struggling with
this climbing wall, or I'm struggling to eat healthy, and
so are you. So we're doing life in parallel, which

(13:23):
allowed us to relate at a level that sometimes it's
harder to communicate because they don't get to see what
you're doing.

Speaker 5 (13:30):
I think that that's a really good point.

Speaker 4 (13:33):
I didn't even think about the fact that I had
no idea what it was doing.

Speaker 5 (13:36):
So that was an example in itself.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well, we have people that tell us what we're doing.
Sometimes we're good or for bad, yeah right, chiming in,
but giving their opinion.

Speaker 4 (13:45):
Well, they were usually you can't do that. You're gonna
get sued You're gonna go to jail, You're gonna fail.
You don't know what you're doing. You rip off your
taking adventage.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
You know, Jen, What did you do with those negative voices?
Are there any?

Speaker 7 (13:58):
Oh?

Speaker 6 (13:58):
Were there any? This was unbelievable because, like, my most
prized position is being a mom, And so when you
tell somebody that you're a mom and you love your
kids and you're gonna go climb Everest or like bs,
good moms don't climb Everest, right, And so for me
it was so important to show that actually, great moms
climb everst but just rewrite that narrative. So anything that

(14:21):
was negative was just fuel for me.

Speaker 4 (14:23):
But that goes through to the difficulty of achieving law,
the difficulty of learning more that makes you more valuable
in the face of not only the challenge either of
inventing your life saving device in your garage or climbing Everest.
People don't know that those things make you better.

Speaker 6 (14:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
Right.

Speaker 4 (14:45):
If you look back and say, you know the key question,
did it make you better mom? Heck yeah, and your
analogy you're parallel to them. Struggling with learning too was awesome.
I didn't think of that, right, But Our example is
that it makes us better parents. Right, So all that
negativity was not only you know concern or you know

(15:10):
that may it was misguided.

Speaker 5 (15:12):
You were better.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
We're coming up against the break. If it's okay, Jen
Drummer's going to stick around and we'll talk to her
after this message.

Speaker 4 (15:19):
Protect your family by Life Back Now.

Speaker 6 (15:21):
Thank you Dan.

Speaker 5 (15:22):
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Speaker 1 (16:20):
Now on iHeartRadio, more of the Man in the Arena,
the Life Back Radio Show. Here again are Arthur Lee
and Rick Thatcher, and.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
We're joined by super mom, superperson, super human being Jen Drummond,
who's talking to us about her incredible, incredible feats where
she's climbed. What do they call it the second highest six?

Speaker 5 (16:43):
Seven?

Speaker 6 (16:44):
Yeah, so they actually call it the seven second summits,
which seven the second second highest peak on each of
the seven continents.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
And how does it well, I'm obviously in size differs
from the top seven.

Speaker 6 (16:57):
Yeah, so basically they're just a little bit shorter. But
for sample, K two is the second highest point in Asia.
K two's eight hundred feet shorter than Everest, yet way
more technically difficult. Twenty five percent of the people that
climb K two die in its pursuit, where Everest is
only four percent, and a lot more people climb Everest
than K two.

Speaker 5 (17:18):
You ever have any close calls.

Speaker 6 (17:21):
I've probably had three close claws.

Speaker 4 (17:23):
On the mountain when anyone's sticking your head that you
really were like, this is it.

Speaker 6 (17:28):
One of them was the slow burn in a storm, right,
So a lot of them are these quick jerks that
scare you and you're like, oh my gosh, thank god
the rope was there, or this caught me, or we
missed that avalanche because we were running a few minutes late,
and that was God doing his work. But we were
in this storm for six days and it was pulling
at the tent and trying to rip it, and if

(17:48):
the tent ripped, we were going to be dead. And
at one point it got really really bad where my
guide was saying, put all your gear on, no where
everything is. Start writing notes on your phone to your
family so if they find that you have left them
something to tell them what's going on. And let's just
buckle down for the next fourteen hours. And that's almost
worse because you're sitting in it and you're like, I'm

(18:09):
metabolizing it and you don't know. I prefer like, let
me skydive and deal with it and be done versus
let it linger for days.

Speaker 5 (18:18):
I've had many of those whoa that was close. Yes, yes,
they go real quick and then you move on. Did
you read you read into thin air?

Speaker 3 (18:27):
Right?

Speaker 6 (18:28):
I did? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (18:29):
And you remember where I.

Speaker 4 (18:30):
Believe it was hole where he was stuck and he
knew and he was communicating with the knowledge that it
was eventually he was just going to die. And that
always stuck with me in the sense of what would
you do if you knew you were going to go?

Speaker 3 (18:45):
You know?

Speaker 4 (18:46):
And it's interesting that the guide said, you know, send
you notes, right, yeah, make sure those you hear the
calls from the planes on nine to eleven, and you know,
you compress that entire life into a few minutes or
you know, an hour day whole survive for like seventy

(19:06):
two hours because he was just superhuman. But another interesting
moment and there's someone on that right if you had that.
And now once again going back to the hold, you're crazy.

Speaker 5 (19:19):
You shouldn't do that. You're a bad mom too.

Speaker 4 (19:21):
I'm better mom, and I have so much more appreciation
for so many things that make me more useful.

Speaker 6 (19:29):
No, and you come back from those experiences, and I
know this is gonna sound crazy, but you come back
from those experiences and everything is amazing, Like everything I
remember coming back and looking at a weed growing through
the concrete, and I like it was cheering the weed on.
I'm like, I'm so proud of you for like being
out here by yourself and fight with a good fight

(19:50):
and good luck, and like you just like like why
is that rock there? Why is that tree there? Like
everything is just so beautiful because the alternative is you
don't gets experience it as we know it.

Speaker 4 (20:02):
You know, I think in the arena is our usefulness
as opposed to I think he should have said that
and did this is the lesson of that meaning you
don't have to climb everese. You don't have to invent
a life saving device. You have to pursue something. You
have to pursue good. You have to pursue something that

(20:25):
tests you and educates you. And I think the fundamental
thing that you brought out, I'm so glad you came on.
That helps us be better and helps us be better parents. Right,
you were cheering for the weed because you know what
it's like to grow through the cement. Yeah, definitely, because
you said dump some whatever on it and kill it.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
So you mentioned moms before doing it for moms and
setting an example, but for people who will never climb
everest as you do what's the everyday mountain? You think
most of your patriots or your contemporary space have seven kids.

Speaker 6 (21:04):
I know seven, Yeah, you know, I think we all
have mountains, right it's anything that's hard for us. In
our house, we use what's your everest because then I
know what the hardest thing is my kid is dealing
with at that moment, and I know how to treat
that because it might not be an everest to me,
but if he uses a word like this is my
everest right now, I know how to respond and support

(21:24):
and help and love through that. So we all have
an everest. It just looks different. I know mine right
now is dealing with the construction outside my house. It's nice, right,
and I want to like tell them how to do
it better, do it at night instead of drinking. Like
I have a lot of opinions on how this should
be done, and I just have to sit there and
be like, you know what, I'm grateful there's people that

(21:45):
are taking care of this road and it might look
different than I wanted it to, but I'm going to
just celebrate what I'm grateful for in this moment. And
we all have that challenge. We all have to find
what can may be grateful for and whatever moments were dealt.

Speaker 4 (21:57):
But I think it's important that what you said about
the fact that an everest, I used the term did
you hit an iceberg? Meaning was there a fatal flaw?
Did you hit something that is prevent you from moving forward?

Speaker 5 (22:10):
You know?

Speaker 4 (22:11):
And it's an iceberg meaning you sunk. There was no recovery.
But I like your term, and I think it's certainly
a benefit if people did that with roses and thorns
at the table.

Speaker 5 (22:26):
We used to do rosen thorns every night, right.

Speaker 4 (22:28):
It was best party day, worst party day, Right, And
we'd still do it. And I think it's a great
talking point. Like when Ben Carson I was talking to
him and they would pick a psalm, they would pick
something to talk about at dinner, right, And I think
what your everest is another cool gift that we can
give to people, particularly with this stupid thing, right, how

(22:51):
do we get out of that? How do we get
back to thinking what your evers?

Speaker 3 (22:55):
Right?

Speaker 4 (22:56):
How does this psalm affect you? How does this lesson?
What do you think? And I think that's a great term.
I'm going to use that.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
Did you have those thorns? Are nothing that did you
do that?

Speaker 6 (23:08):
I don't know if we call it roses and throat.
We had high and low. Give me your high, give
me a high low. This is what we called it.

Speaker 5 (23:14):
That's cool.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Have the kids did they show like you say their
novice is certainly in mountain climbing, but do they show interest?

Speaker 7 (23:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (23:22):
You know. I've taken my three oldest to kill them
in Jarrow and they climbed to kill them and Jarrow
with me and had great success. My younger ones, I'm
waiting till they're a little bit older, but I'm definitely
going to take them because it's just to write a
passage in our family.

Speaker 5 (23:35):
Now.

Speaker 6 (23:35):
It was their least favorite vacation until a month later
it became their favorite vacation. So I'm like, okay, this worked.
Why kill because kill em? And jar is the roof
of Africa. It's a gorgeous country. The people that climb
there with you are very enthusiastic. They love their jobs,
they're grateful. It takes seven days to climb it and
there's not any real hazard. So the only risk that

(23:57):
I would have if somebody got hurt is if they
got altitude sickness. But because we did the seven day
route that eliminated that pretty much. So for me, it
was giving them a chance to be out there, have
the experience without the risk.

Speaker 5 (24:09):
How high is coman jarn?

Speaker 6 (24:11):
I think it's nineteen thousand, three hundred and forty one
feet maybe.

Speaker 4 (24:15):
And where where do you Where does the oxygen issue
kick in?

Speaker 6 (24:19):
It can kick in at ten thousand feet for people
or six thousand.

Speaker 4 (24:22):
Feet for people sickness, but you know the dead zone
where you have.

Speaker 6 (24:25):
To go, oh, the death zone. I think the death
zone kicks in at about twenty five thousand.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Feet okay, yeah?

Speaker 5 (24:31):
And how high is ever.

Speaker 6 (24:33):
Evers is twenty nine to twenty nine, so two nine
oh two nine.

Speaker 5 (24:37):
These are good.

Speaker 4 (24:37):
Also some conversation we're talking about roads and doors that
are a didnit table?

Speaker 5 (24:43):
What altitude you die at?

Speaker 3 (24:44):
Right?

Speaker 4 (24:45):
And the person answering these questions in the same person
ridiculously coolert very well verse.

Speaker 5 (24:51):
Yeah, but that's pretty awesome, it is.

Speaker 4 (24:53):
But really I think the biggest point was that these
challenges bring us to be better parents.

Speaker 5 (24:59):
And better pep.

Speaker 4 (25:00):
Right, And you mentioned the word gratitude, which I love
because that's such an underlying, not appreciated emotion and thought right.
I remember when I helped kill you the first boy,
we say, little boy, and staring at the parents and
the grandparents, and for me, from my accident, the gratitude
was they didn't have to go through what I went through. Yeah,

(25:23):
And it really was, if I use our today's terminology,
I was in all. I was in all of two things,
one perfectly quiet and I'm holding this little dude, you know,
and then looking out at the parents and the grandparents
and knowing how destroyed they would have been from my
own heart, right, And I guess that's another moment of awe.

(25:46):
But it's all based on gratitude. I was grateful that
they didn't have to have that.

Speaker 6 (25:51):
Yeah. I think gratitude can drive a lot of our
behavior and experiences. And with my kids, I'm always like
compared to what? Right they're grumpy about something, I'm like
compared to what because there's a lot of other options
that would be even worse than the one you're dealing
with right now.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
Yeah, well, our parents, I'll give you something to cry about. Yeah,
that was a real quick cut off through your complaining.
I'll give you something to cry about, no problem.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
How long is the training for say, Killiman Jarrow. You
trained for it as if someone would train for a marathon.

Speaker 6 (26:23):
Yeah, I would say, like I think if you were
coming from the sofa, depending if you had like a
past of like any kind of fitness whatsoever, you could
probably be ready in like ten weeks. If you were
more active, you could probably be ready in six.

Speaker 5 (26:37):
What do you do? Do you climb or do you
do t hikes?

Speaker 6 (26:41):
Like it's carrying a weighted backpack. So I use my
go ruck and I'll walk and do laps around the neighborhood,
or I'll do step ups on a stair. I'll run
up and down staircases when I go to the mall
instead of parking at a level that I could use
an elevator. And you just pick those little spots to
put it in. I think your longest day on Killiman
gerro hiking is probably seven hours hours. But it's not

(27:01):
like running. I mean, you're going up altitude, so you're
feeling it, but it's just being able to move your
body consistently for a continuous period of time. Is how
you get up those mountains.

Speaker 5 (27:11):
What is that pack that you carry and train.

Speaker 6 (27:14):
With, Well, it depends on the mountain. So if you're
on Everest or Kilimanjaro, you can have lighter packs because
they're very supported mountains, so less than twenty pounds. When
I'm on Mount Logan and I'm carrying all the things
that we need, I'm in a forty pound backpack with
probably a sixty pound sled and I'm one hundred and
fifteen pound person.

Speaker 5 (27:34):
I'd rather carry her.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, and no animals involved now, like.

Speaker 6 (27:41):
So on Everest still have sometimes yaks involved. Killimanjaro, they
just have people. And then like on Mount Logan, you
just have yourself. There's no animals out there that's on
the you're on the glacier.

Speaker 4 (27:52):
If you were to inspire a mom to climb something,
what would it be?

Speaker 7 (27:57):
Oh?

Speaker 6 (27:57):
I think the most important thing that every but he
climbs is the demons inside them.

Speaker 4 (28:02):
I know, but and I agree, But our mission in
the arena and sharing a mind challenges is to inspire them.
And if someone looked at it and said, and I
guess I'm looking for the weed grown through the crack.
What is something that if you said, hey, look maybe
you can't go do this or that, what could you do?

(28:24):
Like if you had to pick them ount and just
say look, try it good place to start.

Speaker 6 (28:30):
I think kill Monjaral is a great place to start
in America. It's actually really easy to get to Ecuador too,
and Ecuador uses US dollars, so it's a very affordable trip.
Kill Manjarald. The flight can be pretty expensive to get over.

Speaker 4 (28:42):
Well, we create motorcycle trips. We're lazy, but that motor
has something to do.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
Oh.

Speaker 6 (28:49):
Absolutely, we should definitely motorcycle Africa. That'd be amazing. I'm
in for that adventure.

Speaker 5 (28:55):
I guess we have a new evil Cadievler.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
We do hard.

Speaker 4 (29:00):
That's she'd jump on that hard of course, very difficult
to believe.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
That you identify with the title of Arthur's book, Cancers Alive.

Speaker 5 (29:09):
Yeah, would you think of that on my book?

Speaker 6 (29:11):
Oh my gosh, that book has been inspiration for my
last twelve LinkedIn posts.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
That's awesome.

Speaker 4 (29:19):
You know what it stems from, kind of the what
you said about you know, doing it, and then all
the great things that happened because you shrugged off what
the mom is supposed to be and Lauren so much
and build beautiful children because they see their mother do
these things.

Speaker 5 (29:36):
Getting rid of that word is not a normal kind
of thought.

Speaker 4 (29:40):
Right, and I still catch myself and it's sometimes it's touched,
but sometimes it's hard because you want to just say,
you know, I can't make it tonight, and you have
me being meticulous now about it.

Speaker 5 (29:54):
I have to go.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
You know, I'd like to, but I have to do.
I have some other things to do. But the moment
of catching yourself on that word and going back to
being a kid and my dad insisting on it. Who
put a man on the moon? Definitely helped me. Yeah,
And I think that that was curious how someone who obviously.

Speaker 5 (30:15):
Has not used that word. I'm gonna go climb out. No,
you can't do that.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
Oh yeah, what's next?

Speaker 6 (30:25):
You know, right now I'm in the season of just
absorbing all that's happened. It's really easy for me to go.
And so for me, I want to show my kids
that we're not always in the season of being on
and it's okay to have a winter. So I'm being
very cautious about what I pick up because I want
to demonstrate that you can have a pause before you

(30:46):
pick up.

Speaker 4 (30:46):
I think maybe it's a god wing pause because I
think you have enough experience that you need to share.
And I mean a share in what you did today.
You know that I did this and I did that. Okay,
what'd you learn from it? What'd you feel from it?
As a mother of seven? Having done these things, I
think you have such value to parents men with right.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
I don't think I could father seven.

Speaker 6 (31:13):
Hey, it's fun practicing, So just keeping that up, Okay, But.

Speaker 4 (31:18):
Don't you think now do you feel that that direction
is important? Now that all that effort and everything you
learn and needs to be shared to get the person
who's maybe not even contemplating everest, they're contemplating, you know,
getting through homework to have a different outlook by sharing

(31:40):
your story.

Speaker 6 (31:41):
Oh, I love sharing my story. I love speaking on stages.
I love going to masterminds. I'm hosting masterminds, and so
for me, it's that obligation, right, you come back from
the hero's journey, and now you have to share the
journey to help others on theirs. And that's definitely the
phase that I'm in and enjoying. But I'm sure there's
gonna be another challenge gets me excited them and say yes.

Speaker 4 (32:01):
To I think so too when I agree, And I
struggle with that all the time. And it was funny
with I was, you know, me and Jack go out
and I'm a fire every night before she goes back
to school and sit on the island, and I was
contemplating riding around and living out of my van or
becoming president of the United States. Those are the ones
I was waiting and she's like, you know, only you

(32:24):
would have those two is the thoughts that you might
do when.

Speaker 5 (32:27):
You grow up.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
It's about possibility, it is.

Speaker 4 (32:29):
But it was funny that I shared those thoughts, like,
you know, something will come to you, But I think
the hope and I know you will, is to share
those thoughts like you did today, about the unassuming gifts
that you got from challenging yourself, the better parent, the
gratitude for the weed.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
Well how about the book? You know, when did break
Proof become a reality?

Speaker 6 (32:51):
Yeah? So that book came out in January of twenty four.
I mean, talk about them mountain to climb friends, that's work.
So but yeah, that came out and that's been awesome
just walking people through those different lessons that I learned.
Probably the key one being big mountains take big teams.
So if you're gonna have you set a big average

(33:12):
like goal, you better have a big team to help
bring it to fruition because otherwise it's going to get
hard fast. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (33:19):
Seven strategies, all right, so team.

Speaker 6 (33:22):
We're not going through all seven the bore everybody. They
need to buy the book us spoil.

Speaker 5 (33:27):
Next on the team.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
Where can people get the book?

Speaker 6 (33:30):
Yeah, so it's available on Amazon right now, so feel
free to buy it there. I have it on my website.
You can d M me too. I have some copies
at the house that I sign and send to people.
But I think one of the other concept is believe
in things others say can't be done.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
I know you have to you guessed, we have to
get called out, but you know what, it's time for
a break. Jen, Can you stick around a little bit longer?

Speaker 6 (33:56):
Sure, thank you?

Speaker 2 (33:56):
All right, we'll be back with more of Jen Drummond
on the man in this case, woman here more than
in the arena.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
We'll be right back.

Speaker 8 (34:03):
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its guidelines to include anti choking devices as an option
for choking emergencies. This life saving update recognizes the importance
of tools like life AAC designed to help when traditional
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(34:24):
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Speaker 3 (34:34):
She started to choke on a piece of candy.

Speaker 7 (34:36):
She wasn't breathing.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
Then Ray reached for the life back in it saved her.

Speaker 9 (34:41):
She could have easily died that day. A life back
saved her life. What I would say is, don't need
a life back and not have it. Have a life
back and hopefully never need it.

Speaker 4 (34:52):
Recently, the American Red Cross has added anti joking devices
as an option when standard protocol fails or is not feasible.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
Go to lifeback dot net or called eight seven seven
five four three three eight two to two. Now on
iHeartRadio more of the Man in the Arena the Life
Back Radio Show. Here and again are Arthur Lee and
Rick Thatcher.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Welcome back to The Woman in the Arena. Tonight's guests
Jen Drummond and We've been just enthralled with the stories
up for Supermom Mountaineer and also I wanted to touch on entrepreneur.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
Yeah, have we seen you on Shark Tech.

Speaker 6 (35:30):
I wish I want to be one of the judges.
So let's put that into the atmosphere.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
It's Stillett usually you were. I may see Mark Cuban
this weekend.

Speaker 6 (35:38):
So there you go. You put me in that little lineup. No,
never know. I went to college to become a doctor
because then my town that's the only person that made money,
and so I thought that's what I would do because
I like to help people and whatever else. My chemistry
teacher told me that I was not cut out for
such a career because I didn't like the library and
I didn't know one person's name in my classroom. So

(35:59):
then my business law teacher said, well, of course you
don't belong in there. Like get into finance. You have
a personality for people. And so I had started a
career in investment management, and then I got into institutional
investment management, thank god, because I'm expensive and I now
know how to manage money or I'd be in big trouble.
And then I kind of hired myself out of a

(36:20):
job so I could be home with the kids.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
Now do you feel you know, I think that in
our world you know, I didn't go into air free
because I had a mission, or I went because I
used to drive a truck, and then I did everything
else and I learned business frontimity, right, I'd think the
drive and determination were equal. It was actually really difficult business.

(36:42):
But do you feel that your next venture will have
kind of more heart and soul to it?

Speaker 5 (36:49):
Oh?

Speaker 6 (36:49):
A thousand percent. I think your first one is to
get to your foundation. And then once your foundation is created,
now all of a sudden you can be like, Okay,
how do I do this impact or how do I
leave legacy? Or where can I have impact that helps others?
Because the financial cards taken care of, so it's less
about how much can you accumulate.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
You asked me this on your show, and I think
this is the and I gave you the answer and
I said, you know legacy, right, legacy That guy went
in his garage and made that and changed the world.
It's not me right right. You have a similar thought
slash potential. Jen Drummond did that. It's there was a

(37:31):
mom of seven who went out and climbed them out.
There was a mom of seven who took on these challenges.

Speaker 5 (37:38):
I can do it. Do you feel that way.

Speaker 6 (37:41):
Yes, I feel that way inside and out. I feel
somebody else would have taken the calling if I didn't and.

Speaker 5 (37:46):
That, but I don't know.

Speaker 6 (37:48):
I feel like I like I I was like, okay,
I'm here, I'm I'm in for the assignment. Like sign
me up. I'll learn the things and do the things
and let's make it happen.

Speaker 4 (37:56):
Well, when I was a bank cars and I said this,
when I meet God, there's two questions, Why me?

Speaker 5 (38:02):
And why so hard?

Speaker 6 (38:04):
Exactly why did I like bond? Bonds? And watching movies
like where did I? Why me?

Speaker 5 (38:11):
And why so hard?

Speaker 4 (38:13):
But the legacy part is, you know, another venture that
you're going to go in and be amazing at is
not us.

Speaker 5 (38:22):
It's the spirit.

Speaker 4 (38:24):
The lessons, the the helpfulness to others that come about
from what we did. You know, we don't need a
statue in the park. We need to hear that conversation
someday that says that guy or that girl, that mom,
that guy.

Speaker 5 (38:39):
Did that, not us. It's that it can be done.

Speaker 4 (38:44):
It can be done, and I think it's important that
the lessons of it come out right. I think you
know today just hearing what you know, how it made
you a better parent, like and and made you think differently?

Speaker 5 (38:57):
Is a good fending off the fear?

Speaker 2 (39:00):
What was harder, climbing the mountain or writing the book?

Speaker 3 (39:05):
Writing the book was harder.

Speaker 6 (39:07):
Writing the book is harder because question for the seven
kids are the hardest. But the reason why writing a
book is hard because like a mountain, you start at
the bottom and you know, like, Okay, eventually, if I
just keep climbing up, I'm going to hit the top.
When you're writing a book, you're paying attention to, like
what details do you leave in so someone can follow along?

(39:29):
What details do you take out so it doesn't slow
them down so much they get bored. So you're balancing
this cadence of another human that you're not. You're trying
to explain something to them that they'll never really probably experience,
so how can they relate to that? And then you're
trying to work at this pace so that when they
take it in they're like, yeah, I learned something, I'm satisfied,
I want to read more. So there's just so many

(39:51):
components to a book. On this white page.

Speaker 4 (39:56):
Hard I told the story about talking to kid throwing
a rocket.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Guy, it was you weren't so you're saying you weren't
worried so much about the listener.

Speaker 4 (40:06):
Yeah, probably the reader, But I do appreciate that insight book.
I wrote another story today, no kidding, Yeah, coming home
on the plane about a rainbow that I saw that
ended that I didn't go see.

Speaker 5 (40:19):
So she's see she inspired me.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
Yeah. Is there is there another book?

Speaker 6 (40:24):
There is definitely another book, right because your first one,
you learned so much and you're inefficient and it's horrible
and it's sideways. And then all of a sudden you
start thinking in a like a writer or an author,
and you're like, oh, I have so many more stories
to share, just like art does to like get messages out.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
There's a great there's a great quote from the Odd
Couple that said I hate writing, but love having written. Yes,
and he attributes it this, but it's Oscar. It's Oscar Madison.
He says it about another author. Well, I can't remember,
so if anywhere writer, any odd couple Officionados out there.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
Here's the sports writer. But he was trying to write
a book. He was talking mountains. It was tough for him.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
But I always remember that I hate writing, but love.

Speaker 4 (41:09):
You ever see that kind of a writer in finding
himself in the mountains, and I always was intrigued both
from into thin Air, and it's in my book that
that's something I suggest people read. Just the Will, you know,
there's some tremendous will in that book.

Speaker 6 (41:28):
And Shackleton too, Yeah, that one is amazing.

Speaker 5 (41:31):
Yeah, to kind of bring this back together. Those are
inspired me.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
Perseverance, survival, right, the ultimate perseverance, that refusal back weathers
pops in the tent, Hey, what's up?

Speaker 2 (41:45):
So many great stories and you say, like, right now,
it's a period of time where the family can you know,
exhale and know that Jen is going to be around.

Speaker 4 (41:54):
Yeah, yeah, but she's gonna she's I mean, I'm.

Speaker 6 (41:59):
Gonna go climb lock in May or April of next year.
But that was I.

Speaker 5 (42:03):
Knew that was coming.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Reminds me of Brian tells me he's taking a break
from writing books. Our friend Brian killed me. He's writing books.
He's prolific, and he said he was going to take
a break because everyone always asks what's next, and he's
and he just signed a three book deal and he's, uh,
he's already writing on.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
Oh crazy.

Speaker 4 (42:21):
Yeah, Hey, thank you, And I really hope that you
come on as what's that word contributor?

Speaker 3 (42:28):
Thank you a woman in the arena contributor.

Speaker 5 (42:31):
We could you know when we have.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
A draw and inspiration.

Speaker 4 (42:34):
I love this hopping stuff because you have so much
wisdom to share that it really would be useful to
the people that they get to hear you.

Speaker 5 (42:44):
So I'm super grateful for you coming on.

Speaker 4 (42:47):
Thank you, Thank you for your candor and some really
great insight.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
It was just amazing you said it. Yeah, that's all.

Speaker 5 (42:55):
I didn't even write that.

Speaker 6 (42:57):
Unwritten, unwritten.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
Off the cup is best. So Jen, thank you so
much for joining us. Jen Drummond. Everyone get our book.
Thank you dear Breakfast, break break Breakfast a little longer
her Breakfast, Breakthrough seven Strategy Resilience, achieve your life.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
Goals and you'll get breakfast tomorrow morning. Good promise. Thank
you so much, Jen.

Speaker 6 (43:19):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (43:19):
Well, you're right back with.

Speaker 8 (43:20):
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(43:41):
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Speaker 1 (44:50):
Now on iHeartRadio more of The Man in the Arena
the Life Back Radio Show. Here again are Arthur Lee
and Rick Thatcher.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Of course we say the Woman in the Arena because
Jen Drummond has been with us and telling us the
stories of her path. It's just really incredible. Also, I
mean there's a lot of common tentions. We're going to
talking about mountains with you, Arthur Lee, but we're talking
about a near fatal car accident. Yeah, kind of changing
the trajectory.

Speaker 4 (45:17):
But I mean in you know, in my book, there's
a subtle nature of suicide pervention, and I think that
sharing that the most horrible things don't necessarily mean an end.
And you know, me, I wanted it, I would have,
you know, But I have compassion for my mom and

(45:38):
I'm grateful now that five thousand plus people are alive.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
But that's a subtle underlying message.

Speaker 4 (45:45):
Yeah, and you know, but she's going from great stuff, right.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
But going from and I don't know, we didn't talk
to Jen Drummond about how the darkest times were, but
she's certainly changed. But for you, there's survival and then
there are changing the world.

Speaker 3 (46:01):
There's a huge difference there.

Speaker 4 (46:03):
They think that for me and my side and that
there is hope that if you can survive, right, you
just put it off, like she said once she wanted
to quit, take another step. It's amazing what can happen,
Like you know, you can't say, hang in there, buddy,
you know, chin up, you're gonna be okay. That makes
you want to kill yourself, right, But if you can

(46:25):
see it and I don't highlight it, sticking it, it
comes out that it allows people to take one more
step because you don't know, and then people like her
and me that it made it through and did something.
There's a lesson, right, the painful as it is, there's
a lesson And at the beginning I was talking about

(46:46):
or on the pain. Right, you don't prance up a
mountains carrying a seven pound rocksack. Now, she made it
seem relatively painless, but I walked down the block with
that mountain pack or I'm gonna pay us out. So
there was a lot of pain to achieve that. There's
a lot of pain in my life to persevere.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
Physical pain, emotional pain.

Speaker 4 (47:08):
Yeah, you know, light at the end of the tunnel book,
potential for awe.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Potential for alle you know where what's on inspiring to me?
Maya privy, yes, maya preevy. And light at the end
of the tunnel. The light at the end of our
show is mister Ray Priby, mister three thousand.

Speaker 7 (47:27):
How everyone doing tonight?

Speaker 5 (47:28):
I got to go have a cup of coffee with him?
Last was it last week? I don't even know.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
Where my week?

Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yep, I'm glad that you guys got together. Not so
surprised with the coffee. Pretty much pretty much all he has.

Speaker 7 (47:42):
But yeah, but we got some. Uh. I'm gonna go
ahead and throw a prediction out there. We are sixty
days away from the number three thousand, well one year
from October twentieth, when when I saved my daughter. We
are sixty days away. I'm predicting four thousand, eight hundred
and twenty saves.

Speaker 4 (48:02):
Nice Now, how many would that be from when she
was saved to that day?

Speaker 7 (48:08):
One thousand, eight hundred and twenty For the year, we'll.

Speaker 4 (48:11):
Have saved oney eight and twenty in your bold prediction?

Speaker 7 (48:14):
That is my prediction.

Speaker 5 (48:16):
What's the date?

Speaker 7 (48:17):
October twentieth?

Speaker 4 (48:18):
Okay, let's we gotta make that that's another should have
in mind.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
Donna's right, Donna's going to lose.

Speaker 7 (48:24):
That's gon'd be a good one. But you know, here we.

Speaker 10 (48:29):
Are three hundred and five days from me saving my
daughter Maya, and we are one thousand, five hundred and
forty eight saves in four thousand, five hundred forty eight saves.

Speaker 5 (48:42):
Well, we haven't saved while we were on.

Speaker 7 (48:45):
We had to save apparently, because that's help.

Speaker 5 (48:48):
He gets it right for Donna.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
We don't even know. That's one of the benefits of
being on every week.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
He gets right around back, right straight through from Donna excited.

Speaker 11 (48:58):
Today's Today's highlight. Wow, Wow, this is a great one.
My brother was eating rice and hiccough and it got stuck.
He tried to wash it down with some diet coke,
which made it worse. He ran to the sink and
was spitting up diet coke, trying to breathe, but couldn't
even cough. I told him to lay on the ground

(49:21):
as I grabbed the life back from the top of
the refrigerator and pumped twice, and then he started to breathe.

Speaker 7 (49:29):
He coughed and rolled on his side. This truly saved
my brother's life. I'm so grateful for your product. I'm
so scared to think what could have happened if I
didn't have it. I met Arthur and his daughter on
a life back commercial set last year. I told him
I always wanted to get one for my two year

(49:50):
old son, but I hadn't yet. He gave me an
extra one that he had with him that day. I
am forever grateful after hearing about how wonderful of a
product this was and how all he wanted was to
save lives and have it everywhere. I always have it
on standby in the kitchen, and today was the day
I needed it. I still can't believe it. Thank you, Arthur.

(50:14):
I hope this message reaches you personally. Thank you, thank you,
thank you. Words truly don't explain how grateful I am
to your kindness that day.

Speaker 4 (50:27):
How way me and Jackie from the commercial wow, and
I gave it to her. Obviously they tend to do that,
you do that, but that saved their life. And I
texted Jackie this morning, I said, this starfish is okay, right,
you know that one right from the starfish back. So

(50:47):
when I sent it to this morning, and I sent
that and and you know she was impacted too. You know,
we were there and what the what beautiful words, you know,
And I think if you take it deeper, we never
know what our kindness could do.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
Right.

Speaker 4 (51:03):
And in my book I talk about waving to the
person who was going to commit suicide and change that
that direction.

Speaker 5 (51:09):
So I just thought it was cool.

Speaker 4 (51:11):
Me and Jackie made the commercial and we gave one
in the makeup lady saved it.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
Since since you opened up before about you know, a
dark time in your life, was there anyone that you
remember besides Uncle Roger that made that difference for you
may have waved or said something at the right time.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
That was so great to me because you know, I
was the guy. You know, it was very odd. It
was a very almost lonely still is to some extent
because I'm lucky. I never met anyone that had that happen.
But it was very lonely to some extent, and it
was all out of I think fear. You know, no

(51:49):
one wanted to bring it up, wanted to be gentle
to me. It was an interesting time.

Speaker 7 (51:54):
It's funny that you say that because that brings up
to two topics right off the bat. Number one, is
how many people stop to help people?

Speaker 5 (52:03):
Right?

Speaker 3 (52:03):
You said it in your account. I remember a lot.

Speaker 7 (52:06):
Of cars drive by. Very few people stop the help,
you know. And during my incident with my daughter, I
was fortunate to have two people, two people stop to help.
And again that that act of kindness. How far does
that go with people? You know? You that impacts I'll
never forget those people, right they stopped.

Speaker 4 (52:26):
Yeah, and I think that's a part of life back.
A lot of people get it because they do want
to be able to help others. We had a baseball
game the other day, like three people went run into
their cars.

Speaker 5 (52:35):
But those are the people.

Speaker 3 (52:37):
Absolutely thanks to you.

Speaker 5 (52:39):
It's beautiful to see.

Speaker 7 (52:40):
Before I get out of here, I got one more
thing for you, life back. Better to have it not
need it, than need it and not have it. The
life you say could be your own, to be a stranger,
could be a family member who knows. Just get a
life back. Love you guys, God bless them, good night.

Speaker 5 (52:55):
That's right, thank you.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
He's a good Wow, he's a good act. And we're
going to see him. We see him every week. Yeah,
and it's a blessing for us. You know what. An
incredible conversation.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
That we had with Jen Drummond, a mom, a mountaineer,
and a living example of what it means to step
boldly into the arena.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
Her story reminds us right that the.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
Greatest summits aren't just found in the mountains, but in
the challenges we face every day. If Jen's journey inspired, you,
share this episode with a friend who could use a
spark of courage, and don't forget to subscribe so you
never miss another story of resilience, grit, and relentless pursuit
of greatness Until next time. Keep showing up, keep fighting
the good fight, and remember the arena is where champions

(53:36):
are made. And we'll see you next week.

Speaker 3 (53:38):
I'm Rick.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
I'm with Arthur Lee, CEO and venor of Life BAC
on The Man in the Arena.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
The proceeding was a paid podcast. iHeartRadio's hosting of this
podcast constitutes neither an endorsement of the products offered or
the ideas expressed.