March 26, 2020 • 33 mins
We are in strange times, my friends. You know what the deal is — COVID-19 caused by the novel coronavirus is spreading, infecting and killing people on a scale we're entirely unprepared for. And on the front lines of its commercial victims, anyway, is the hospitality industry. My industry. Strange and scary times, indeed. So while we can't travel or even be within six feet of other people, we're going to shift our focus to the matter at hand. I'm bunkered down at home in Athens and while I'm here, I'll be talking to colleagues to try to figure out the scope of this thing and a way forward. This week, I'm talking to James Beard semi-finalist Chris Wilkins of Atlanta's Root Baking Co., about these shutdowns we are both still reeling from and figuring out, and what it could mean for the restaurant industry as a whole.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
I'm Hugh Atchison, and this is not really the passenger
because we don't travel right now. At least if you
do travel, you're one of the silly people in the world. Uh,
it's uh, it's a Wednesday. Woke up pretty early. I
got the news that a close chef friend of mine
(00:26):
had passed away from COVID nineteen. That chef is Floyd
Cardo's and uh, Floyd was the semilarly important chef of
back in the day of Tableau New York, and I
worked with him on Top Chef Masters and Floyd was
just uh an amazingly gifted cook and chef, but more
(00:51):
so he was just a loving man. So hats off
to Floyd, and may you rest in peace. But that's
a sad one and a hard one to take. Um,
we're in a really weird time. That's not just in
my industry. We're all in a really weird time. I
(01:12):
look at my industry as hospitality and restaurants as being
this sort of the first ravaged frontline from this pandemic.
And what's uplifting is how people are responding and helping
and trying to make sure the restaurant industry and hospitality
survives because at the end of the day, that's what
(01:35):
guess great restaurants have as hospitality, and they want to
serve and their communities and and help out in any
which way they can. And I think that that more
importantly than ever is is is it's it's time to
do that, and it's time to help out. Doing a
lot of strange things in my abode right now these days,
(01:58):
busy right, a lot of contracts because I put out
on social media on Instagram that would be happy to
you know, for you for people to pay in advance
for catering. Pay now and I'll cater it later once
the dust settles. I didn't expect much of an outpouring.
UM sixty catering contracts later that have been working on.
(02:20):
It shows that the backbone of my community of Atlanta
and Athens, Georgia UM believes in me and wants me
and my carew to survive. UM listen to a lot
of music these days. If you guys really want a
good three album set, starting to find on Spotify and stuff,
(02:43):
but you can find it on some music streaming services.
But Riza rs A from wood Tank Clan put together
a shoolin soul compilation a couple of years ago, came
out in like two three, number of years ago, but
it's phenomenally good. Oh what else wouldn't been doing? Uh
(03:04):
watching Chips Creek, which is the most uplifting, wonderful show
of all time to me and makes me think of
my good Canadian roots. UM doing a lot of doodles
and trying to manage the distant accounting of restaurants that
are dark. UM. Empire State South in Atlanta is still
(03:25):
doing to go food and trying to service the community
as best they can. But you know, we've we've really
thought about safety and how we're delivering that to the public,
and we're not delivering. We have a small window that
we open. Your food goes out your six feet away,
the window closes, you approach, pick up your food. All
the payments are done over the phone. UM, so there's
no cross contamination. I have the same cruise. Been diligently working, uh,
(03:49):
NonStop since since we started just doing that. And so
shout out to Lane and Anna running the front of
the house, and Sam Herndon and the back, and Corey
to Pollo who's the executive chefferd Empire doing great work
to Kelly Thorne and Stephen Grubbs and um a lot
of names some people in the area know and some
(04:09):
people don't know. Two Choppy A man. Um, these these
are good people. I'm gonna call in uh and get
my good friend Chris Wilkins on the phone, because Chris
is the person I talked to when when I want
to giggle and laugh, when I want to talk about
(04:33):
the funny perspective of the end times. But Chris Wilkins
is Root Baking in Atlanta, which is in Pont City Market,
which is all shut down, but within that space he
also runs an amazing little place called Pizza Jeans, which
makes amazing pizza. Um. But Chris, as Brad is, Chris
is a you know, six ft two, red headed Italian
(04:56):
guy from upstate New York who's uh wonderfully intelligent and
layered and the James Beard nominated best baker in America.
Uh more than that. Chris wokens to my parents. So
let's get him on the phone. Chris, and I'm just
(05:18):
gonna go straight to the chase. What the fund is
going on in the world right now? I don't know,
I don't know, well, I don't know. I guess we
I guess we know exactly what's going on, and also
we don't because I think, like, I don't know about you,
but it feels funereal. I we deliver bread all over
(05:39):
the city. We used to do anyway, and I still
see these people and the only way I can describe
how my interactions with them are now is like it
is like some someone or something died. You know, don't
actually go to a funeral though, because there's a county
in Georgia that's got the largest outbreak right now, Purdy County,
(06:00):
and that's everybody went to two funerals, is right about
COVID nineteen. Yeah, that's funny me. It's just strikes that
this thing is is terrible in so much that I
think it just strikes at, you know, the heart of
our industry, which is gathering and getting people together. This
this thing is just I don't know, Taylor made to
(06:23):
implode the thing that we are. Like every instinct I have, right,
every instinct you have, every instinct any chef or hospitality
person has is to bring people together and feed them, right,
And this thing says no, this thing, this thing says no,
you can't do this, And it is Yeah, it's terrible.
I mean we you know, like like everybody else, I
(06:43):
think in Atlanta and New York and everywhere else, we
had to let go most of our staff last week,
and and you know it, it was terrible, right, But
then then we try to be honest with them and
try to tell them what we could do, what we
could but we could not do. Uh, and then we
just kind of opened the bar for them, and so
(07:05):
we just kind of shiva for the food service, you know.
And it's like people were laughing, people were crying, people
words sad, people were elated, people were just to see
each other. Of course not for the news, but like
it was, it was I don't know. The best thing
I think we can do is kind of allow that
grieving process to happen. And we can't. We need to
(07:28):
be a quarantine grieving process. Well I know, I know, No,
you're right, and then and then once that, once that
when the quarantine grieving process is going to take a
while too, so you shut down when Tuesday of last week,
we yea shut down a Monday of last week, laid
off twenty people and we shut down five and ten
(07:51):
pretty much completely in Athens. But Empire State South is
still doing to go food, which has been a response
to the industry across the board, but it's not a
very it's not economically viable for the long term. So
you know, how are we without government bailout? How what's
(08:12):
what's the what's the end result that's going to happen
to this industry that employs fifteen million people in fourth
almost a trillion dollars. Uh? Yeah, So well, I don't know,
of course, but I can, I have I have my suspicions,
and I think that, um, first of all, I think
(08:33):
we should, we can and should mourn what restaurant life
and culture was for a long time until like a
week ago, right, and now I think our industry is
just going to change if you play out like what
this thing looks like. You know, let's let's say this
is all over and in two months it's not gonna
take It's like restaurants, aren't you gonna be back to it?
(08:56):
And in a week? Right, I mean, it's gonna take
people a long time. You get comfortable out and seeing
each other again in large groups. So what what restaurant
do you know? You know, you know every you know
everybody like what restaurant do you know that can have
the have the resources just open back up again, full bar,
perishable inventory, you know, all that kind of stuff that
(09:18):
costs thousans and thousands of dollars and also be that
busy they won. Yeah, it's it's not that we don't
have the wherewith all of the bandwidth to get it
operational quickly. It's a gain. I think it's really what
you're saying is about public perception. And then you know,
how comfortable do people feel getting in a room with
sixty people? And that may take years to reset properly.
(09:41):
So are we going to have to revert to you know,
clean kitchens, allowed to go food delivery service but a
lot of that too. I mean people are still doing that.
And I am kind of sounding a bit of an alarmist,
but I worry that so many hands touching food when
you order through of the meal services, that you don't
(10:02):
know where it's coming from. That's right, that's terrifying. I
mean the Empire stad South, you know, I've got five
people working there, all salaried people and there, but it's
the same people every day. And they made a pact
with themselves that they would just go home after the shift,
get rest, wake up the next day and get a
cup of coffee at their house and come to work.
(10:25):
So they're not socially engaged anywhere. They're not mingling with people.
We're not bringing in another crew where I don't exactly
know where they've been with for the last week. Um,
but you know, it's like, yeah, they The length of this,
I'm guessing is going to be July first, where we're
(10:46):
back to any sort of normalcy. You're probably right, and
and and you know, and even even normalcy, I think
is what's changed. What I'm what I'm arguing here. I
think that I don't think that I don't think the
normalcy that we knew three weeks ago is going to
be this thing that we can experience when this is over,
just because I think that it's funny. I was talking
(11:10):
to a friend of mine and she says, you know,
I'm not sure I'm gonna go to the grocery store again.
I just get it delivered. Now, this is great, and
I think that's you know, I think she she was kidding,
but there there is a real sense of like, this
is kind of the way we've been going for the
past twenty years or whatever, it's gonna be right of
like we've kind of been going in this direction that
(11:31):
that that encourages a certain amount of separation while maintaining connection,
like like we are right now, you know I can
see you. Yeah, but I'm not wearing pants. I know,
well you rarely are to be to be fair, we
we need to talk about that eventually. But I think that, like,
you know, we we've kind of been going in this direction.
(11:51):
I'm not sure that like, yeah, I don't think the
normalcy is going to return the way we way we
wanted to, but you know, we we'll get back to
normal eventually and people will come back. I think we're
gonna lose a lot of restaurants though, And that's something
that probably think about, is like we we're gonna I mean,
and when did all those people go? I mean, we've
(12:12):
talked about this before, but you know, it's it's imperative
now that we have a massive public works program that
that builds something that does something that that changes this
country for the good forever, uh and puts people to
work who were previously in a now virtually have dead industry.
I mean right now, restaurants are dead. I mean, they're
they're they're dark, and you know, we've got millions and
(12:34):
millions of people going on unemployment rules. Yet still we
have to have this debate on whether cruise ships are
going to get as big a buyout and a bailout
as we in the hospitality industry. They're worth like a
hundred times more than what their frunership industry is worth.
But I'm flying a librarian flag right now as well, um,
(12:58):
because that's who really speaks for me, because they let
me get away with a lot. But like, think about
this way, right, think about this way? So, Okay, I've
been arguing for this for like you know, listen, I've
got I've got certain political predispositions, and they are to
be like we need we have all these we have
(13:20):
all these kids around here, right, We have all these
twenty thirty year old kids who work in restaurants. That's
basically the population of like your restaurant workers. And it's
just like we have all these kids around Someone got
a fancy college education, someone got no education, someone just
worked really hard, you know what I mean. They're they're all,
they're all they're just people. And so like we've got
(13:40):
a lot of potholes to fix. We've got things to
do in this country. We could we can put them
to work feeding people and doing stuff if we if
we had the the world all to do such a
thing like the and the the appetite for a big
public program like that, and I would be the first
person to celebrate that, right, That's like, that's all I
want to see is I want to see us helping
our communities. And are you talking about doing your teaching
(14:01):
hospitality reserve? Yeah? Yeah, dude, I am get uniforms. We
get uniforms, right, we get uniforms, and it's incredible. I'm
not I'm actually not really kidding. I mean, like, if
you think about it, like during yeah, yeah, we'll get
We'll get We'll get the big brands behind it, right,
we get Carhart and Dickies and all those guys to
(14:22):
get behind this. And what I'm saying like, but think
about this, right, you think about like the like the
Norman Mailers and Kurt vonneget generation. Right, these guys were,
And we're artists and intellectuals and creatives just like us, right,
And we're not intellectuals, but we're definitely you know, in
a creative space. And like they went to work the renaissance.
(14:45):
Absolutely correct, you know what, finally we have a name,
get a team name, you know what I mean? And
so like, but you took these guys who had like
these men and women who have creative skills, like maybe
they can't lay a break to stay of their life,
but they do have skills, and they were de Lloyd.
Those skills were deployed to help to help their community,
their country or whatever you want to call it. Like
(15:08):
that's that's big thinking to me, right, like that, So
we we're using these kids. But not only do they
build a hoover, damn, they wrote the songs that make
that Like like what do you think of like Woody
Guthrie right writing songs about migrant fruit fruit pickers, and
like all all these all these all these folks were
doing their work in that they love to do anyway,
(15:29):
but they're they're putting it towards like greater community service.
That's wonderful to me, right. And so if you take
these kids who cook food, why are we why aren't
they cooking food for their neighbors who should be getting
this food? Maybe maybe private restaurants, I don't know, maybe
maybe we're all dead in the water. Maybe that's true,
but like gosh, I would I would hate to see
(15:50):
the day where where cooking for your neighbor goes away
and it's just it's everything's just dropped in your doorstep
by a person do not know, and we'll never know.
I think in in parallel to that is uh, a
lot of us in what I do in food, which
is more fine dining. You're in baking and have the
(16:11):
pizzeria and um, make fantastic bread. Chris is a James
Beard nominated baker. Um, I know it's awesome. Um, but
you know, in fine outing it's so hinged to service.
But you know there were cracks in that model uh
five years ago that we a lot of us chose
to ignore. And this is maybe giving us an opportunity
(16:33):
to reset, but the reset could be going you know,
the common want maybe way beyond like maybe getting rid
of service completely. And so if everything's delivered to our
door and you know, and things are like the you know,
salad chain restaurants of the world where people just breathe
(16:55):
by and pick that, that and that and then walk
out the door, I feel like all have lost my
will to live yeah, but but I don't do you
think it has to go that far? I mean, that's that,
that's that's I mean, I wonder if that's like where
you have to go if you either have fine dining
or sweet greens. I see them there. There's kind of
(17:16):
being there's always an in between, right, like the neighborhood.
Like this bar on the street that I love to
go to has servers, right, it's it's and it's just
like it's just a neighboring bar. It's like cheers in there, right.
But that's like one of my favorite restaurants the entire
city of Atlanta. And they they're they function like a restaurant,
they run like a restaurant bar situation. And that's when
(17:39):
when the lights come back on in our industry, I
will walk I will walk in there happily and happily
and comfortably because I know that they take it seriously.
Even though it's not a fine dying establishment. I still
think there was a world in which, like, restaurants are
not dead. Of course they're not dead, find dying. Yeah,
you're probably right wind not you're probably right in that,
(18:01):
Like you know, there's probably some flaw to that economically,
and you know with the labor labor we have available
to us. But like I I asked my question to
you with us right so there, this is terrible. No
one is denying this is terrible. We are not by
far the only We should remember we're not the only industry.
This is terrible. For there's a lot of people in
(18:22):
this country and in the world who are right now
in a bad place just like us, even though they
don't make food for a living, right like, not even
food adjacent people. But if you make if you make
cars right now, what are you doing? Yeah? No, yeah, yeah,
I think it is breaking havoc everywhere. Uh and which
which is just crazy to fathom. Um. The weird part
(18:44):
about the hospitality industry is I really felt like this
time we were the fodder, Like we were the first
line to just get mowed down by this, and we
didn't get up. And I don't think we're getting up
for a long time. And there's still people making really
the idiotic moves on not understanding how to really tamp
(19:05):
down that curve and the importance of social isolation and
and not transferring germs. It seems to be hell bent
on this new line from the white house of you know,
the cure can't be worse than the virus, which is
a weird like things saying don't wreck my economy bailing
(19:27):
out a bunch of poor people who are sick, or
you know, go ahead and let three percent of the population.
I mean, I don't think Trump knows how to spell
Thomas mouthless um. But I listen, I don't, I don't.
I don't think he's doing well, if that's what you're
a But I think that like, yeah, I listen, that's
(19:49):
clear that we don't we don't have a way forward,
because like it doesn't feel like we have a clear
direction on this. And that's part of the anxiety, right
It to me, anxiety always happens when it's like I
don't know what I'm worried about. It's just sort of
like I'm not a therapist obviously or any I didn't
even take psych one oh one. But it always seems
to me like anxiety comes from this like just worry
(20:10):
about nothing in particular, but about everything in general. And
so like I I think part of our part of
like kind of spinning our wheels about like our restaurants
over are is life over is partly an anxiousness that
comes from not having a timeline of what this thing
is because there's no beginning, middle, or end. There just
is where we are right, which is like a long
(20:32):
dull you know, long dull stretch stretch stretch, stretch right
and and then like you know, but it will probably
come to a more agreeable point at some point here
in the near or distant future. And then the question is, like,
what are we gonna do with all these people? They're
still gonna be here, Like, what are we gonna do
(20:53):
with all these people who have skills? Right the the
all these people who have because what are we gonna
do with them? To put them back to work so
they can pay their rents, they can pay their mortgage,
they can feed their children, so they can do what
they do, do what people want to do, which is
just live a life. What are we gonna do with them?
And that that is like so that morning period that
(21:14):
we've experienced and our experiencing now will pass eventually, and
then the question has to be what what is next?
Like what can we do? How can we be creative
in helping those around us and in our industry and
outside of our industry while also observing safety right, safety precaution.
I'm Hugh Attriston. You're listening to the Passenger from my
(21:35):
Heart Radio. We'll be back after this quick break. I'm
Hugh Attison. This is the Passenger. So, so what are
you doing? Like when you go home these days? What
do you do? You're a married man, You're sitting at
(21:56):
home just the two of you, Yeah, be playing? Are
playing scrap a lot? I mean yeah, not really man,
because like my my wife still works, she's got she's
got a life, she's gotta she's gotta, someone's gotta pay
the bills here because it's not me anymore. And so
like she still works, and like we're still delivering stuff.
(22:17):
We're still making bread for people because we see it
as a grocery item. So we're still trying to make
bread for the grocery stores. Uh, And so like what
do we do now is like you know, you read,
you watch a movie together, you know, stuff like that,
and what are you doing? Um? It's a matamon. When
there I'm here my girlfriend's place in Atlanta, I mean,
if I'm here, I generally like yesterday at six pm,
(22:40):
I decided that for lots of wine that I would
pitch the idea about selling future catering services, but you
pay me now, and it's like, yeah, it's kind of
like pay it forward and yeah, and then I, uh
so I wrote the most basic contract and then orders started.
I laning in so dollars or of future catering, which
(23:07):
is a great injection some of the core people. And
it's an awesome, a beautiful example of how people do
care about us and people's and that's where and we
should talk about that, right, So, like people do care
about us, but I do think we have to find
(23:28):
ways to make this sustainable if we're in this for
a while. Right, It's like there's gonna be at some point,
you know, the donation, like because of every because of
where we are as in as an industry, like and
because of the communities, because communities love us so much,
not just us, like obviously they love us being like
(23:49):
whatever their local place is, baker chef, you know, bar,
where it's gonna be, they're going to give that initial
infusion of you know, fifty bucks, like gosh, that's what
I would have spent there, you know last week or
this week where I was going to be. But you know,
eventually that's going to dry up because other industries are
hurting too, and so like, we have to find some
(24:10):
way to make this sustainable. And if that's just like,
I don't know what that answer to the answer to
that is, I've been racking my brain. What I was
spending my what I was spending my days doing is
like trying to think of a way to like be Yeah, first,
first of all, try and try and take care of
the people in our industry who are now have like
(24:30):
you know, financial and food insecurity, but also like, how
do we how do we how do we feed them sustainably?
How do we feed them safely? How do we like,
how do we do anything for anyone six months from
now if our restaurants are still closed? Yeah, but and
but even in the in the in the quick next
(24:50):
two weeks, what are we doing to have a viable
way of getting even small amounts of money into these
people's pockets so they can get you know, we you know,
what people need to be doing is really talking to
their city councils about you know, no eviction notices. You
cannot effict anybody in the next four months, you know
(25:10):
at all, you cannot do it. Um that unemployment benefits
that need to be expedited. SBA loan application. I don't
know if you've done yours, but I've done one on
the other Yeah, the SBA dis ask a loan website,
which has just been a nightmare to get on. Um,
you know, all those things need to be expediented. It
(25:32):
made more efficient to have us have any sort of
chance of getting by. But you know, the next you know,
this goes on, they'll I mean I really think JULLI
first is our warm up period of getting back to normal. Um,
and that's you know, that's April May June, and that's
three and a half months away. We've only been in
(25:53):
this for like six fuck days. I know I be
going bat ship crazy by then. Yeah. Well you know
what though, is that what you're doing? No, but it's
an idea. People. Hold on if you people buying, hold on,
(26:15):
if you decide that Macromay is your life and that
you need to do this for yourself. I need you
to call me as a friend and say, hey, I'm
thinking about Macromay, because then I will know that you've
gone around and around the bend. There's just that like
that is that the safe word for having an intervention?
With you, because I don't want to call all of
(26:39):
our friends and say, guys, he wants to sell macromay
on on Etsy. I know I'm going to do something though,
I mean, I can't still advance catering for the rest
of my life. Sometimes somebody's gonna want me to actually
come cook food. That's the that's the downside to all
these all these like kind of microlane things up and
(27:00):
now with restaurants is like, eventually we're not to do
these and we're gonna be like, oh wait, I have
all these guests in my restaurant and I need to
do this catering or because that person lent me. Essentially,
you know four grand and and you know five hundred
amazing people about gifts certificates to your restaurant the day
you reopened. But I met that money six months ago,
(27:21):
that's right. That's right. So yeah, for for the public's idea,
I mean, essentially, a gift certificate is a great, amazing
loan to a restaurant because it really doesn't have any
interest rate. We're burrowing it and often it's got a
bigger return because you lose them. That's right. So that's
(27:44):
the economy. That's why Starbucks is into you buying a
lot of those cards. Starbucks doing that right now? Is
that there's always happened. But yeah, I'm sure they're doing
that now. It was before you decided to do macromay.
Just call I Will Will, I would talk. Well, we'll
we'll do scrabble, We'll do a crossword, you know, digitally
(28:04):
or something. We'll figure out something like we played chess
online against each other. I love chess. You know. I
got my I got my butt kicked by this Russian kid.
Like last week at like three in the mornings. I
couldn't sleep. You beat me in like four moves. And
I've never felt stupider in my life. I think the
bottom line is that we're going to come back from
this and we're gonna be stronger than ever. It's just
(28:25):
gonna take a while. People out there support your independent restaurants,
your independent bakeries, your independent food people. Um, they need
you now more than ever. But they need your voice too.
They need to get out there and call your congress
people in your centators and make sure they do the
right thing. When bailout money starts to come that we
(28:46):
don't just bail out the airlines seem to be needing
bailing out a lot those airlines, airlines, airlines, cruise ships.
It's you wonder how places It boggles the mind to
think about how much money they make and how much money,
how how many times need to bail them out of
making not as much money as they used to make.
It is fascinating. I think we're all on the cruise ship. Now,
(29:08):
have you ever been on a cruise? I've been in
a cruise, yes, a number of times, guest Cheffing, I've
been on a cruise to Antarctica. But then uh, Steve
and um Matt Permley and I went on a cruise
in Europe that was amazing. But this is pre COVID
nineteen and pre you know, Um, I gotta tell you something.
I never trusted cruises. I never trust the cruise pre
(29:29):
COVID nineteen, post plague, pre plague. I don't trust cruises.
I don't do you think times probably? In fact, that's
where that's what hey, did you know that's where quarantine
comes from. How it's an Italian word? Yeah, for forty days.
That's how the at least of the Tians used to
make you wait and your boat before they left you
(29:50):
in the country during the plague. Take that America. Take
that little piece of knowledge. How about that? Put that
in your pipe and smoke it. Don't smoke, don't because
because upper respiratory infections and covid onto infect your Also,
the first sign I'm reading now is that people lose
a sense of smell. I saw that. That's creepy, I know.
(30:14):
So I'm gonna fired a lot to know. I'm still alive.
You're still alive. Yeah, smart when you can't spell them
canary in the coal mine, you know what I mean.
Chris Wilkins, get back to baking that fine ass bread.
You're a good man, and we will get through this,
all right, buddy. Thanks talking. Is there some really screwed
(30:37):
up times? I just uh, We're gonna come out of it, okay, okay,
But we're losing friends and family and people we adore,
and it's really hard to take in. But I'm hoping.
I'm hoping the dire predictions of people who I respect,
(31:00):
like Tom Cliquio saying sevent restaurants probably won't come back,
I'm hoping that's wrong. I'm ready for a reset of
an industry that was untenable in a lot of ways. UM,
But I don't want that reset to cause a lot
of anguish and a lot of unemployment. UM. You know,
in this country right now, we need a massive public
(31:21):
works program. We need to build dreams. We need to
build Hoover dams, we need to build the future. Um.
And we need to move a lot of people into
roles that they didn't necessarily see coming, that that they
get value from and they get work from, and they
provide because right now we need all to be providers. UM.
(31:42):
But we need to also just be good humans. We
need to care check in your neighbor safely, UM, check
on people you don't know safely, make sure everyone's okay. UM.
And that's not just from my community. In the hospitality industry,
that's just called a human. How about you'd be a
human not a human. That's me. You've been listening to
(32:12):
the passenger. This is the production of I Heart Radio
created by Hugh Atchison and Christopher Hassiotas. Were produced and
edited by Mike Johns. A researcher is Jesselyn Shields and
Christopher Hassiotas is our executive producer. Special thanks to Gabrielle Collins,
Crystal Waters and the rest of the crew. If you
(32:32):
like the Passenger, leave us a review on Apple podcast
It helps other people like you. I'm the show. If
you're a local and you want to let me know
what I missed and where should go on my next visit,
or if you've recently been a passenger like me and
want to share your experience, hit me up on Instagram
and Twitter at Hugh Atchison well more podcasts from my
(32:53):
Heart Radio use the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks for listening,
mm HM.
I'm Hugh Atchison, and this is not really the passenger
because we don't travel right now. At least if you
do travel, you're one of the silly people in the world. Uh,
it's uh, it's a Wednesday. Woke up pretty early. I
got the news that a close chef friend of mine
(00:26):
had passed away from COVID nineteen. That chef is Floyd
Cardo's and uh, Floyd was the semilarly important chef of
back in the day of Tableau New York, and I
worked with him on Top Chef Masters and Floyd was
just uh an amazingly gifted cook and chef, but more
(00:51):
so he was just a loving man. So hats off
to Floyd, and may you rest in peace. But that's
a sad one and a hard one to take. Um,
we're in a really weird time. That's not just in
my industry. We're all in a really weird time. I
(01:12):
look at my industry as hospitality and restaurants as being
this sort of the first ravaged frontline from this pandemic.
And what's uplifting is how people are responding and helping
and trying to make sure the restaurant industry and hospitality
survives because at the end of the day, that's what
(01:35):
guess great restaurants have as hospitality, and they want to
serve and their communities and and help out in any
which way they can. And I think that that more
importantly than ever is is is it's it's time to
do that, and it's time to help out. Doing a
lot of strange things in my abode right now these days,
(01:58):
busy right, a lot of contracts because I put out
on social media on Instagram that would be happy to
you know, for you for people to pay in advance
for catering. Pay now and I'll cater it later once
the dust settles. I didn't expect much of an outpouring.
UM sixty catering contracts later that have been working on.
(02:20):
It shows that the backbone of my community of Atlanta
and Athens, Georgia UM believes in me and wants me
and my carew to survive. UM listen to a lot
of music these days. If you guys really want a
good three album set, starting to find on Spotify and stuff,
(02:43):
but you can find it on some music streaming services.
But Riza rs A from wood Tank Clan put together
a shoolin soul compilation a couple of years ago, came
out in like two three, number of years ago, but
it's phenomenally good. Oh what else wouldn't been doing? Uh
(03:04):
watching Chips Creek, which is the most uplifting, wonderful show
of all time to me and makes me think of
my good Canadian roots. UM doing a lot of doodles
and trying to manage the distant accounting of restaurants that
are dark. UM. Empire State South in Atlanta is still
(03:25):
doing to go food and trying to service the community
as best they can. But you know, we've we've really
thought about safety and how we're delivering that to the public,
and we're not delivering. We have a small window that
we open. Your food goes out your six feet away,
the window closes, you approach, pick up your food. All
the payments are done over the phone. UM, so there's
no cross contamination. I have the same cruise. Been diligently working, uh,
(03:49):
NonStop since since we started just doing that. And so
shout out to Lane and Anna running the front of
the house, and Sam Herndon and the back, and Corey
to Pollo who's the executive chefferd Empire doing great work
to Kelly Thorne and Stephen Grubbs and um a lot
of names some people in the area know and some
(04:09):
people don't know. Two Choppy A man. Um, these these
are good people. I'm gonna call in uh and get
my good friend Chris Wilkins on the phone, because Chris
is the person I talked to when when I want
to giggle and laugh, when I want to talk about
(04:33):
the funny perspective of the end times. But Chris Wilkins
is Root Baking in Atlanta, which is in Pont City Market,
which is all shut down, but within that space he
also runs an amazing little place called Pizza Jeans, which
makes amazing pizza. Um. But Chris, as Brad is, Chris
is a you know, six ft two, red headed Italian
(04:56):
guy from upstate New York who's uh wonderfully intelligent and
layered and the James Beard nominated best baker in America.
Uh more than that. Chris wokens to my parents. So
let's get him on the phone. Chris, and I'm just
(05:18):
gonna go straight to the chase. What the fund is
going on in the world right now? I don't know,
I don't know, well, I don't know. I guess we
I guess we know exactly what's going on, and also
we don't because I think, like, I don't know about you,
but it feels funereal. I we deliver bread all over
(05:39):
the city. We used to do anyway, and I still
see these people and the only way I can describe
how my interactions with them are now is like it
is like some someone or something died. You know, don't
actually go to a funeral though, because there's a county
in Georgia that's got the largest outbreak right now, Purdy County,
(06:00):
and that's everybody went to two funerals, is right about
COVID nineteen. Yeah, that's funny me. It's just strikes that
this thing is is terrible in so much that I
think it just strikes at, you know, the heart of
our industry, which is gathering and getting people together. This
this thing is just I don't know, Taylor made to
(06:23):
implode the thing that we are. Like every instinct I have, right,
every instinct you have, every instinct any chef or hospitality
person has is to bring people together and feed them, right,
And this thing says no, this thing, this thing says no,
you can't do this, And it is Yeah, it's terrible.
I mean we you know, like like everybody else, I
(06:43):
think in Atlanta and New York and everywhere else, we
had to let go most of our staff last week,
and and you know it, it was terrible, right, But
then then we try to be honest with them and
try to tell them what we could do, what we
could but we could not do. Uh, and then we
just kind of opened the bar for them, and so
(07:05):
we just kind of shiva for the food service, you know.
And it's like people were laughing, people were crying, people
words sad, people were elated, people were just to see
each other. Of course not for the news, but like
it was, it was I don't know. The best thing
I think we can do is kind of allow that
grieving process to happen. And we can't. We need to
(07:28):
be a quarantine grieving process. Well I know, I know, No,
you're right, and then and then once that, once that
when the quarantine grieving process is going to take a
while too, so you shut down when Tuesday of last week,
we yea shut down a Monday of last week, laid
off twenty people and we shut down five and ten
(07:51):
pretty much completely in Athens. But Empire State South is
still doing to go food, which has been a response
to the industry across the board, but it's not a
very it's not economically viable for the long term. So
you know, how are we without government bailout? How what's
(08:12):
what's the what's the end result that's going to happen
to this industry that employs fifteen million people in fourth
almost a trillion dollars. Uh? Yeah, So well, I don't know,
of course, but I can, I have I have my suspicions,
and I think that, um, first of all, I think
(08:33):
we should, we can and should mourn what restaurant life
and culture was for a long time until like a
week ago, right, and now I think our industry is
just going to change if you play out like what
this thing looks like. You know, let's let's say this
is all over and in two months it's not gonna
take It's like restaurants, aren't you gonna be back to it?
(08:56):
And in a week? Right, I mean, it's gonna take
people a long time. You get comfortable out and seeing
each other again in large groups. So what what restaurant
do you know? You know, you know every you know
everybody like what restaurant do you know that can have
the have the resources just open back up again, full bar,
perishable inventory, you know, all that kind of stuff that
(09:18):
costs thousans and thousands of dollars and also be that
busy they won. Yeah, it's it's not that we don't
have the wherewith all of the bandwidth to get it
operational quickly. It's a gain. I think it's really what
you're saying is about public perception. And then you know,
how comfortable do people feel getting in a room with
sixty people? And that may take years to reset properly.
(09:41):
So are we going to have to revert to you know,
clean kitchens, allowed to go food delivery service but a
lot of that too. I mean people are still doing that.
And I am kind of sounding a bit of an alarmist,
but I worry that so many hands touching food when
you order through of the meal services, that you don't
(10:02):
know where it's coming from. That's right, that's terrifying. I
mean the Empire stad South, you know, I've got five
people working there, all salaried people and there, but it's
the same people every day. And they made a pact
with themselves that they would just go home after the shift,
get rest, wake up the next day and get a
cup of coffee at their house and come to work.
(10:25):
So they're not socially engaged anywhere. They're not mingling with people.
We're not bringing in another crew where I don't exactly
know where they've been with for the last week. Um,
but you know, it's like, yeah, they The length of this,
I'm guessing is going to be July first, where we're
(10:46):
back to any sort of normalcy. You're probably right, and
and and you know, and even even normalcy, I think
is what's changed. What I'm what I'm arguing here. I
think that I don't think that I don't think the
normalcy that we knew three weeks ago is going to
be this thing that we can experience when this is over,
just because I think that it's funny. I was talking
(11:10):
to a friend of mine and she says, you know,
I'm not sure I'm gonna go to the grocery store again.
I just get it delivered. Now, this is great, and
I think that's you know, I think she she was kidding,
but there there is a real sense of like, this
is kind of the way we've been going for the
past twenty years or whatever, it's gonna be right of
like we've kind of been going in this direction that
(11:31):
that that encourages a certain amount of separation while maintaining connection,
like like we are right now, you know I can
see you. Yeah, but I'm not wearing pants. I know,
well you rarely are to be to be fair, we
we need to talk about that eventually. But I think that, like,
you know, we we've kind of been going in this direction.
(11:51):
I'm not sure that like, yeah, I don't think the
normalcy is going to return the way we way we
wanted to, but you know, we we'll get back to
normal eventually and people will come back. I think we're
gonna lose a lot of restaurants though, And that's something
that probably think about, is like we we're gonna I mean,
and when did all those people go? I mean, we've
(12:12):
talked about this before, but you know, it's it's imperative
now that we have a massive public works program that
that builds something that does something that that changes this
country for the good forever, uh and puts people to
work who were previously in a now virtually have dead industry.
I mean right now, restaurants are dead. I mean, they're
they're they're dark, and you know, we've got millions and
(12:34):
millions of people going on unemployment rules. Yet still we
have to have this debate on whether cruise ships are
going to get as big a buyout and a bailout
as we in the hospitality industry. They're worth like a
hundred times more than what their frunership industry is worth.
But I'm flying a librarian flag right now as well, um,
(12:58):
because that's who really speaks for me, because they let
me get away with a lot. But like, think about
this way, right, think about this way? So, Okay, I've
been arguing for this for like you know, listen, I've
got I've got certain political predispositions, and they are to
be like we need we have all these we have
(13:20):
all these kids around here, right, We have all these
twenty thirty year old kids who work in restaurants. That's
basically the population of like your restaurant workers. And it's
just like we have all these kids around Someone got
a fancy college education, someone got no education, someone just
worked really hard, you know what I mean. They're they're all,
they're all they're just people. And so like we've got
(13:40):
a lot of potholes to fix. We've got things to
do in this country. We could we can put them
to work feeding people and doing stuff if we if
we had the the world all to do such a
thing like the and the the appetite for a big
public program like that, and I would be the first
person to celebrate that, right, That's like, that's all I
want to see is I want to see us helping
our communities. And are you talking about doing your teaching
(14:01):
hospitality reserve? Yeah? Yeah, dude, I am get uniforms. We
get uniforms, right, we get uniforms, and it's incredible. I'm
not I'm actually not really kidding. I mean, like, if
you think about it, like during yeah, yeah, we'll get
We'll get We'll get the big brands behind it, right,
we get Carhart and Dickies and all those guys to
(14:22):
get behind this. And what I'm saying like, but think
about this, right, you think about like the like the
Norman Mailers and Kurt vonneget generation. Right, these guys were,
And we're artists and intellectuals and creatives just like us, right,
And we're not intellectuals, but we're definitely you know, in
a creative space. And like they went to work the renaissance.
(14:45):
Absolutely correct, you know what, finally we have a name,
get a team name, you know what I mean? And
so like, but you took these guys who had like
these men and women who have creative skills, like maybe
they can't lay a break to stay of their life,
but they do have skills, and they were de Lloyd.
Those skills were deployed to help to help their community,
their country or whatever you want to call it. Like
(15:08):
that's that's big thinking to me, right, like that, So
we we're using these kids. But not only do they
build a hoover, damn, they wrote the songs that make
that Like like what do you think of like Woody
Guthrie right writing songs about migrant fruit fruit pickers, and
like all all these all these all these folks were
doing their work in that they love to do anyway,
(15:29):
but they're they're putting it towards like greater community service.
That's wonderful to me, right. And so if you take
these kids who cook food, why are we why aren't
they cooking food for their neighbors who should be getting
this food? Maybe maybe private restaurants, I don't know, maybe
maybe we're all dead in the water. Maybe that's true,
but like gosh, I would I would hate to see
(15:50):
the day where where cooking for your neighbor goes away
and it's just it's everything's just dropped in your doorstep
by a person do not know, and we'll never know.
I think in in parallel to that is uh, a
lot of us in what I do in food, which
is more fine dining. You're in baking and have the
(16:11):
pizzeria and um, make fantastic bread. Chris is a James
Beard nominated baker. Um, I know it's awesome. Um, but
you know, in fine outing it's so hinged to service.
But you know there were cracks in that model uh
five years ago that we a lot of us chose
to ignore. And this is maybe giving us an opportunity
(16:33):
to reset, but the reset could be going you know,
the common want maybe way beyond like maybe getting rid
of service completely. And so if everything's delivered to our
door and you know, and things are like the you know,
salad chain restaurants of the world where people just breathe
(16:55):
by and pick that, that and that and then walk
out the door, I feel like all have lost my
will to live yeah, but but I don't do you
think it has to go that far? I mean, that's that,
that's that's I mean, I wonder if that's like where
you have to go if you either have fine dining
or sweet greens. I see them there. There's kind of
(17:16):
being there's always an in between, right, like the neighborhood.
Like this bar on the street that I love to
go to has servers, right, it's it's and it's just
like it's just a neighboring bar. It's like cheers in there, right.
But that's like one of my favorite restaurants the entire
city of Atlanta. And they they're they function like a restaurant,
they run like a restaurant bar situation. And that's when
(17:39):
when the lights come back on in our industry, I
will walk I will walk in there happily and happily
and comfortably because I know that they take it seriously.
Even though it's not a fine dying establishment. I still
think there was a world in which, like, restaurants are
not dead. Of course they're not dead, find dying. Yeah,
you're probably right wind not you're probably right in that,
(18:01):
Like you know, there's probably some flaw to that economically,
and you know with the labor labor we have available
to us. But like I I asked my question to
you with us right so there, this is terrible. No
one is denying this is terrible. We are not by
far the only We should remember we're not the only industry.
This is terrible. For there's a lot of people in
(18:22):
this country and in the world who are right now
in a bad place just like us, even though they
don't make food for a living, right like, not even
food adjacent people. But if you make if you make
cars right now, what are you doing? Yeah? No, yeah, yeah,
I think it is breaking havoc everywhere. Uh and which
which is just crazy to fathom. Um. The weird part
(18:44):
about the hospitality industry is I really felt like this
time we were the fodder, Like we were the first
line to just get mowed down by this, and we
didn't get up. And I don't think we're getting up
for a long time. And there's still people making really
the idiotic moves on not understanding how to really tamp
(19:05):
down that curve and the importance of social isolation and
and not transferring germs. It seems to be hell bent
on this new line from the white house of you know,
the cure can't be worse than the virus, which is
a weird like things saying don't wreck my economy bailing
(19:27):
out a bunch of poor people who are sick, or
you know, go ahead and let three percent of the population.
I mean, I don't think Trump knows how to spell
Thomas mouthless um. But I listen, I don't, I don't.
I don't think he's doing well, if that's what you're
a But I think that like, yeah, I listen, that's
(19:49):
clear that we don't we don't have a way forward,
because like it doesn't feel like we have a clear
direction on this. And that's part of the anxiety, right
It to me, anxiety always happens when it's like I
don't know what I'm worried about. It's just sort of
like I'm not a therapist obviously or any I didn't
even take psych one oh one. But it always seems
to me like anxiety comes from this like just worry
(20:10):
about nothing in particular, but about everything in general. And
so like I I think part of our part of
like kind of spinning our wheels about like our restaurants
over are is life over is partly an anxiousness that
comes from not having a timeline of what this thing
is because there's no beginning, middle, or end. There just
is where we are right, which is like a long
(20:32):
dull you know, long dull stretch stretch stretch, stretch right
and and then like you know, but it will probably
come to a more agreeable point at some point here
in the near or distant future. And then the question is, like,
what are we gonna do with all these people? They're
still gonna be here, Like, what are we gonna do
(20:53):
with all these people who have skills? Right the the
all these people who have because what are we gonna
do with them? To put them back to work so
they can pay their rents, they can pay their mortgage,
they can feed their children, so they can do what
they do, do what people want to do, which is
just live a life. What are we gonna do with them?
And that that is like so that morning period that
(21:14):
we've experienced and our experiencing now will pass eventually, and
then the question has to be what what is next?
Like what can we do? How can we be creative
in helping those around us and in our industry and
outside of our industry while also observing safety right, safety precaution.
I'm Hugh Attriston. You're listening to the Passenger from my
(21:35):
Heart Radio. We'll be back after this quick break. I'm
Hugh Attison. This is the Passenger. So, so what are
you doing? Like when you go home these days? What
do you do? You're a married man, You're sitting at
(21:56):
home just the two of you, Yeah, be playing? Are
playing scrap a lot? I mean yeah, not really man,
because like my my wife still works, she's got she's
got a life, she's gotta she's gotta, someone's gotta pay
the bills here because it's not me anymore. And so
like she still works, and like we're still delivering stuff.
(22:17):
We're still making bread for people because we see it
as a grocery item. So we're still trying to make
bread for the grocery stores. Uh, And so like what
do we do now is like you know, you read,
you watch a movie together, you know, stuff like that,
and what are you doing? Um? It's a matamon. When
there I'm here my girlfriend's place in Atlanta, I mean,
if I'm here, I generally like yesterday at six pm,
(22:40):
I decided that for lots of wine that I would
pitch the idea about selling future catering services, but you
pay me now, and it's like, yeah, it's kind of
like pay it forward and yeah, and then I, uh
so I wrote the most basic contract and then orders started.
I laning in so dollars or of future catering, which
(23:07):
is a great injection some of the core people. And
it's an awesome, a beautiful example of how people do
care about us and people's and that's where and we
should talk about that, right, So, like people do care
about us, but I do think we have to find
(23:28):
ways to make this sustainable if we're in this for
a while. Right, It's like there's gonna be at some point,
you know, the donation, like because of every because of
where we are as in as an industry, like and
because of the communities, because communities love us so much,
not just us, like obviously they love us being like
(23:49):
whatever their local place is, baker chef, you know, bar,
where it's gonna be, they're going to give that initial
infusion of you know, fifty bucks, like gosh, that's what
I would have spent there, you know last week or
this week where I was going to be. But you know,
eventually that's going to dry up because other industries are
hurting too, and so like, we have to find some
(24:10):
way to make this sustainable. And if that's just like,
I don't know what that answer to the answer to
that is, I've been racking my brain. What I was
spending my what I was spending my days doing is
like trying to think of a way to like be Yeah, first,
first of all, try and try and take care of
the people in our industry who are now have like
(24:30):
you know, financial and food insecurity, but also like, how
do we how do we how do we feed them sustainably?
How do we feed them safely? How do we like,
how do we do anything for anyone six months from
now if our restaurants are still closed? Yeah, but and
but even in the in the in the quick next
(24:50):
two weeks, what are we doing to have a viable
way of getting even small amounts of money into these
people's pockets so they can get you know, we you know,
what people need to be doing is really talking to
their city councils about you know, no eviction notices. You
cannot effict anybody in the next four months, you know
(25:10):
at all, you cannot do it. Um that unemployment benefits
that need to be expedited. SBA loan application. I don't
know if you've done yours, but I've done one on
the other Yeah, the SBA dis ask a loan website,
which has just been a nightmare to get on. Um,
you know, all those things need to be expediented. It
(25:32):
made more efficient to have us have any sort of
chance of getting by. But you know, the next you know,
this goes on, they'll I mean I really think JULLI
first is our warm up period of getting back to normal. Um,
and that's you know, that's April May June, and that's
three and a half months away. We've only been in
(25:53):
this for like six fuck days. I know I be
going bat ship crazy by then. Yeah. Well you know
what though, is that what you're doing? No, but it's
an idea. People. Hold on if you people buying, hold on,
(26:15):
if you decide that Macromay is your life and that
you need to do this for yourself. I need you
to call me as a friend and say, hey, I'm
thinking about Macromay, because then I will know that you've
gone around and around the bend. There's just that like
that is that the safe word for having an intervention?
With you, because I don't want to call all of
(26:39):
our friends and say, guys, he wants to sell macromay
on on Etsy. I know I'm going to do something though,
I mean, I can't still advance catering for the rest
of my life. Sometimes somebody's gonna want me to actually
come cook food. That's the that's the downside to all
these all these like kind of microlane things up and
(27:00):
now with restaurants is like, eventually we're not to do
these and we're gonna be like, oh wait, I have
all these guests in my restaurant and I need to
do this catering or because that person lent me. Essentially,
you know four grand and and you know five hundred
amazing people about gifts certificates to your restaurant the day
you reopened. But I met that money six months ago,
(27:21):
that's right. That's right. So yeah, for for the public's idea,
I mean, essentially, a gift certificate is a great, amazing
loan to a restaurant because it really doesn't have any
interest rate. We're burrowing it and often it's got a
bigger return because you lose them. That's right. So that's
(27:44):
the economy. That's why Starbucks is into you buying a
lot of those cards. Starbucks doing that right now? Is
that there's always happened. But yeah, I'm sure they're doing
that now. It was before you decided to do macromay.
Just call I Will Will, I would talk. Well, we'll
we'll do scrabble, We'll do a crossword, you know, digitally
(28:04):
or something. We'll figure out something like we played chess
online against each other. I love chess. You know. I
got my I got my butt kicked by this Russian kid.
Like last week at like three in the mornings. I
couldn't sleep. You beat me in like four moves. And
I've never felt stupider in my life. I think the
bottom line is that we're going to come back from
this and we're gonna be stronger than ever. It's just
(28:25):
gonna take a while. People out there support your independent restaurants,
your independent bakeries, your independent food people. Um, they need
you now more than ever. But they need your voice too.
They need to get out there and call your congress
people in your centators and make sure they do the
right thing. When bailout money starts to come that we
(28:46):
don't just bail out the airlines seem to be needing
bailing out a lot those airlines, airlines, airlines, cruise ships.
It's you wonder how places It boggles the mind to
think about how much money they make and how much money,
how how many times need to bail them out of
making not as much money as they used to make.
It is fascinating. I think we're all on the cruise ship. Now,
(29:08):
have you ever been on a cruise? I've been in
a cruise, yes, a number of times, guest Cheffing, I've
been on a cruise to Antarctica. But then uh, Steve
and um Matt Permley and I went on a cruise
in Europe that was amazing. But this is pre COVID
nineteen and pre you know, Um, I gotta tell you something.
I never trusted cruises. I never trust the cruise pre
(29:29):
COVID nineteen, post plague, pre plague. I don't trust cruises.
I don't do you think times probably? In fact, that's
where that's what hey, did you know that's where quarantine
comes from. How it's an Italian word? Yeah, for forty days.
That's how the at least of the Tians used to
make you wait and your boat before they left you
(29:50):
in the country during the plague. Take that America. Take
that little piece of knowledge. How about that? Put that
in your pipe and smoke it. Don't smoke, don't because
because upper respiratory infections and covid onto infect your Also,
the first sign I'm reading now is that people lose
a sense of smell. I saw that. That's creepy, I know.
(30:14):
So I'm gonna fired a lot to know. I'm still alive.
You're still alive. Yeah, smart when you can't spell them
canary in the coal mine, you know what I mean.
Chris Wilkins, get back to baking that fine ass bread.
You're a good man, and we will get through this,
all right, buddy. Thanks talking. Is there some really screwed
(30:37):
up times? I just uh, We're gonna come out of it, okay, okay,
But we're losing friends and family and people we adore,
and it's really hard to take in. But I'm hoping.
I'm hoping the dire predictions of people who I respect,
(31:00):
like Tom Cliquio saying sevent restaurants probably won't come back,
I'm hoping that's wrong. I'm ready for a reset of
an industry that was untenable in a lot of ways. UM,
But I don't want that reset to cause a lot
of anguish and a lot of unemployment. UM. You know,
in this country right now, we need a massive public
(31:21):
works program. We need to build dreams. We need to
build Hoover dams, we need to build the future. Um.
And we need to move a lot of people into
roles that they didn't necessarily see coming, that that they
get value from and they get work from, and they
provide because right now we need all to be providers. UM.
(31:42):
But we need to also just be good humans. We
need to care check in your neighbor safely, UM, check
on people you don't know safely, make sure everyone's okay. UM.
And that's not just from my community. In the hospitality industry,
that's just called a human. How about you'd be a
human not a human. That's me. You've been listening to
(32:12):
the passenger. This is the production of I Heart Radio
created by Hugh Atchison and Christopher Hassiotas. Were produced and
edited by Mike Johns. A researcher is Jesselyn Shields and
Christopher Hassiotas is our executive producer. Special thanks to Gabrielle Collins,
Crystal Waters and the rest of the crew. If you
(32:32):
like the Passenger, leave us a review on Apple podcast
It helps other people like you. I'm the show. If
you're a local and you want to let me know
what I missed and where should go on my next visit,
or if you've recently been a passenger like me and
want to share your experience, hit me up on Instagram
and Twitter at Hugh Atchison well more podcasts from my
(32:53):
Heart Radio use the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks for listening,
mm HM.
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