October 20, 2022 • 48 mins
How does the story we tell ourselves determine who we become?
How do we determine which values are authentic and which are misdirected?
How do we find the courage to reject fear-based decision-making?
These and other fascinating topics are addressed when executive coach and anxiogenics expert Mary Kutheis joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/marykutheis/
http://www.mckcoaching.com/
What choice can I make or action can I take in this moment to create the greatest possible value?
Can we change neuropathways to steer ourselves on a more successful course?
Why do we choose to repeat the same mistakes over and over again?
The sooner we recognize and correct unhealthy thinking patterns the more quickly we can reduce anxiety and discover solutions.
Knowing our fears and our triggers empowers us to change our behavior.
What appears to be failure is often success.
If we can't lead ourselves, how can we successfully lead other people?
Word of the Day: macadamize
To pave by laying and compacting successive layers of broken stone, often with asphalt or hot tar. Broken pieces can be repurposed to build and progress; success emerges out of failure.
"What's the best mistake that happened today?"
How snowplow parents do their children a disservice by denying them the benefit of learning from failure.
The difference between flipflopping and principled change of outlook.
Ponder fearlessly and don't be afraid of silence.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margarita Gurri (00:03):
Welcome to The Rabbi and The Shrink. This is
Dr. Margarita Guri, the shrink.
And here's my favorite rabbi.
Yonason Goldson (00:11):
Yonason Goldson.
Margarita Gurri (00:12):
Well the good rabbi and I have with us, Mary
Kutheis. Welcome, Mary.
Mary Kutheis (00:18):
Thank you for having me. I'm here.
Margarita Gurri (00:20):
We're delighted Actually, today we're talking
about linking thinking to longterm success. And I know you on
the rabbi's grappling with agreat podcast. And he said how
excited you were about when heasked about x eugenics? So I
thought, why don't we startthere? And then I'll brag a
little about you. So tell us whyare you so excited about x
(00:43):
oragenics? Well,
Mary Kutheis (00:45):
most people haven't heard of the term x
eugenics, it's fairly new. Andwhat it is, is the axiology is
the science of value. Andneuroscience, as we know, is a
study of the brain. So when youbring the science of value and
the study of the brain together,you get access to eugenics. And
essentially, what it is, is howwe think. So how we think is at
(01:11):
the root of everything we do. Imean, if you put that
practically think aboutsomething that you do, that
doesn't start in your braindoesn't start with thinking
unconsciously or consciously orsubconsciously, it's all there.
So when we can have moreunderstanding about how we
think, and we can be moreproactive about thinking in ways
(01:35):
that are helpful, we can changeall sorts of results, not only
for ourselves, but for ourcommunity and the world at
large.
Yonason Goldson (01:43):
There's a story I heard, I remember where I
heard his on Tom, Bill uspodcast, I remember who was
telling it is talking aboutabout someone who was became a
very, very successful publisher.
And he had been an unsuccessfulhigh school student, and figured
he may not even graduate, it wasgoing to find some menial job.
(02:04):
And he got his SATs score back.
And he got in the 1300s 1400s.
That, wow, I never did well onanything before. Maybe I'm not
as dumb as I think I am. And hestarted working a little bit.
And he finished high schoolstrong, went to college did well
became extremely successful inbusiness. And I think it was
(02:28):
like 10, or 15 years later, hegot a letter from the sap board.
And it said, we're letting youknow, there was an error in the
results. And this is your realscore. And it was like in the
nine hundreds. Wow. And, youknow, he just looked back on
(02:53):
this, he thought, because Ithought I was smart. I started
acting smart. And I becamesuccessful. And if he would have
gotten his regular scores back,he would have just confirmed his
belief that he was never goingto go anywhere in life. And we
never would We wouldn't betelling this story right now.
But it just I think it speaks tothe essence of of your, how you
(03:16):
just summed up Axia Genex. This,this intersection between the
story we tell ourselves and whowe actually become.
Mary Kutheis (03:32):
Yeah, it's so fascinating when you think about
I mean, most people who havestudied any kind of parenting
know, it's terrible to tell yourchild you're not a good reader
or all those terrible things.
Because the more we tell them,that kind of thing, the more
they will absorb it and believethat. And the same thing. When
(03:53):
they do well. Not saying you'reso smart. But you put in such
effort, and it really paid offfor you. And then they learned
that it's effort, not justnatural smarts that got them
where they are.
Margarita Gurri (04:09):
Absolutely. And there's several studies about
that. They tell half the peoplein a room, that they're really
smart. And then they give him abunch of hard problems to solve.
And then they the other half,they tell them you guys are
super hard working. And you're Iknow you'll persevere. Well, in
(04:30):
the end, the smart kids ended upcheating or quitting because
they thought when they couldn'tget it that they weren't smart.
And the kids who were told thateffort was more important. Keep
at it, and so of course they didbetter. So I think that's
important. How did you get intoall this? I mean, what were you
doing before? I know you'reyou're a coach of lots of
(04:51):
coaching certificates,professional executive exogenic
foundational team coaching. Howdid you get to this exogenic
part of your life? Well,
Mary Kutheis (05:02):
I started my business 22 years ago, I was
disenchanted with corporateAmerica. And so you'll say No, I
know, I know, we were in theprocess of adopting our son. And
I thought, boy, I can't, I can'tgo back into a job that I really
do not enjoy, and put our sonthat we work so hard to get in
(05:24):
daycare, and so on. So myhusband said, well quit and
figure something else out. Soit's kind of morphed over the
years. But I had been fascinatedsince really, since I was a
little kid, about how we think,how we behave. How we, as
humans, communicate andinteract. And so it's really all
(05:47):
built on itself as this has gonealong. And then I have actually
been using this, the hierarchyof value is the assessment. And
I've been using it withsomething else. But it was very
dense, very sciency. And when Icame across Peter Demarest and
his work, and I thought, Oh, mygoodness, here's this assessment
that I think is so, sobrilliant. But what comes out of
(06:11):
it is something that the averageperson can use, that's when I
got really excited about it,because you can take this, it's
a fairly dense axiology is afairly dense science. But the
outcome of it understanding ourthinking from both self
perspectives and worldperspectives, it just can create
such enormous shifts for us, andit's the power behind it is
(06:35):
amazing. And, and even, we,you've probably heard of how
important emotional intelligenceis. And I completely agree. And
as a precursor to that, I mean,because we can change our EQ if
we work on it. But if we canchange our Learn to change our
thinking, it's going to make anyother self or professional
(06:57):
development that we do better,because at the root of any
change we're trying to make ishow we think.
Margarita Gurri (07:03):
Which brings us back to ethics rabbi,
Yonason Goldson (07:06):
yeah. And it really got me thinking, it's a
continuous form of thought, forme that I come from a very sort
of structured, theologicalorientation. So for me values
are taught they're handed down.
When you talk to people whodon't have that religious
(07:26):
background, or religiousfoundation orientation, that
values can become a much morecomplicated conversation, do you
have a way of approaching theconcept of what are whether we
call them authentic values areuniversal values or healthy
values? What happens if somebodysays, Well, my values are XY and
(07:48):
Z, and most of us wouldn'tactually think of those as
appropriate values.
Mary Kutheis (07:56):
I think we're seeing a lot of it more publicly
these days than we, that atleast I have in my lifetime.
When we value money, or when wevalue power, or when we value,
prestige, all those kinds ofthings. Those are legitimate
(08:21):
values, I suppose. And yet, theycan also be separators, if you
will, if someone may value moneyabove all else, but that's going
(08:41):
to impact how other peopleinteract with them, and probably
narrow the circle to people whofind that to be a an acceptable
value.
Yonason Goldson (08:54):
When you're associated with people whose
values may not be ultimatelyhealthy. So now you got the
compounded problem of mycommunity is not supporting me
and one out the way either.
Mary Kutheis (09:06):
Yeah. And when they see that old thing, spend
your time around the fivepeople, you become the five
people that you spend your timearound. So be very careful.
choose very carefully. And yeah,I think when we when we are in
alignment, with our core values,were in a good place. When we
(09:27):
are out of alignment, it's verydifficult for us. And just
because we have a value doesn'tmean we're always in alignment
with it. But we try.
Margarita Gurri (09:38):
Yeah, we do.
And I think one of the thingsthat the rabbi and I have seen
that as people have moreconfidence and more emotional
intelligence, they're morelikely to abandon a fear based
philosophy of I need more power,so I value power. I need to have
all these plastic surgeriesbecause I I value looking good,
(09:58):
because that's the best I've gotor, you know, things like that.
And we're noticing how. Andwe're trying to contaminate the
world with values baseddiscussions, where people have
the courage to explore ideas andthoughts that are different from
what they thought they had aredifferent from other people.
Mary Kutheis (10:23):
I've written some about how, in terms of
leadership, what always gets inthe way of being a good leader
is one or more of the followingpower, insecurity and greed. And
insecurity is remarkably at theroot of a lot. Because an
(10:47):
insecure person seeks the powerand the money to build up
something that they don't haveinside.
Yonason Goldson (10:57):
You know, that that insecurity also leads to
more extreme outlooks on life,because those tend to be more
simplistic. And if I haven'treason to my way, to a solid
outlook, that, by necessity,acknowledges the complexities
(11:19):
and the gray areas and theparadoxes and contradictions
that I'm, I'm secure with theunderstanding that life is
complicated, then I'm going toretreat into these more
simplistic worldviews andassociated with people who are
similar like simplistic in theirviews, and now we have
(11:42):
groupthink. And we havetribalism. And we have this sort
of political mess that we, weread so much about in the
headlines.
Margarita Gurri (11:50):
And it's, it's frightening. If, if you could
save the world with a questionor something for people to
ponder, what would it be? Howcan you because I know you talk
about little, little minute orminute shifts you were talking
about this wonderful play onwere very clever. What would be
(12:11):
the question that you would havepeople ponder to inspire that
shift?
Mary Kutheis (12:16):
I'm so glad you asked that. Well, me too. As
part of X eugenics, there is thecentral question. And it is at
the core of how we choose tomove forward at any time. And it
is this what choice can I make?
And action? Can I take in thismoment, to create the greatest
net value?
Margarita Gurri (12:42):
Could you say that, again, that was profound?
Mary Kutheis (12:44):
I can, what choice can I make, and action can I
take in this moment, to createthe greatest net value. And a
couple of the important thingsin there is that we don't give
value and we don't get value, wecreate value, we have the
ability to create value. And netvalue doesn't necessarily mean
(13:08):
everyone will be happy for it,if someone is failing terribly
at their job, and you've triedand tried and try to work them
through that, but ultimately,it's going to be better for the
company and the team and theclient that they work with. And
and even maybe the person that'sbeing let go, I would
Margarita Gurri (13:28):
say especially the person being like go, it
should be exciting and scary.
But if we don't belongsomewhere, that means somewhere
else needs us or we belong.
Yeah.
Mary Kutheis (13:40):
The even in the moment, if they don't, they
might not think oh, this isgreat for me. But ultimately,
the net value is better for thembecause they find a place where
they do fit where they canthrive. And so it's looking at
all of those different aspectsof any situation where what is
not just not what's the best forme. And it also not completely
(14:03):
negating oneself and say what'sbest for everybody else that I
shouldn't, nothing matters aboutme. It's it's looking at all the
pieces, and how can we createthe greatest net value?
Yonason Goldson (14:16):
Message, isn't it?
Margarita Gurri (14:18):
I'm sorry, Rob, I
Yonason Goldson (14:19):
think it's an empowering message. I don't
know, I don't feel that I am avictim of circumstance. I don't
feel that I really have to justgo along with whatever my
circumstances are. But rather Ibecome the one who defines the
environment I live in and I takeresponsibility for the change
(14:43):
that I can make in the world.
And if we, you know, if more ofus feel that way. Then we're
going to be looking for partnerscollaborators, opportunities to
take advantage of and society isgoing to benefit as a Hallward
benefits individuals No.
Margarita Gurri (15:02):
And we have to create systems to follow that
up. Because I think sometimespeople say, Okay, I've, I've
thought about my values. I'vepicked my five people. I'm just
gonna coast. And the problemwith coasting is the rabbi and
I, you know, and you know, very,is that there's ethical fading.
And we have to rethink things,constantly asking the question
(15:26):
again, what's the right thing todo? What fits? So what are you
doing it help people refreshthis commitment to the
institute? Genex?
Mary Kutheis (15:39):
Well, it's a little bit of a, it's a little
bit of a conundrum in thismoment, because it's, it's new.
In the 90s, emotionalintelligence was new, not very
many people had heard of EQ. Andnow, lots of lots and lots of
people have, it's a very commonthing. Well, the queue is kind
of in the 90s EQ stage, wherepeople are just not as they're
(16:05):
not aware of it at all. And thenunderstanding how it applies to
one's own development is alittle bit of a challenge to I
think there's only there's lessthan 30 of us that are currently
certified in the assessment andthe training and that kind of
thing. So we're working hard togrow it. And, and the idea that
(16:28):
it's putting the power in thehands of the people to utilize
their best ways of thinking. Sohopefully, people find that
intriguing. And think it's notabout motivational posters, or
affirmations. It's really aboutunderstanding how you think,
(16:50):
shifting away from less helpfulways. And using our more helpful
ways of thinking which we donaturally we do habitually,
we're just not aware of
Margarita Gurri (17:01):
it. So tell us about the brain. Because we're
talking about, you know, thescience and the study of the
brain as well. What is it weneed to remember about the brain
a for going to move forward inthe most productive way?
Mary Kutheis (17:20):
That's a really scary question, because I have a
limited knowledge. However, Ithink the thing that I can I
mean about scientifically aboutthe brain. But I think the one
thing that is exciting is theplasticity of the brain, that
for a long time, people thoughtthat the way it is is the way it
(17:41):
is. But what we know now is thatwe can change neural pathways to
ones that are more helpful in inprograms, I'll put a picture of
a rutted road on the screen. Andif you were to be driving your
truck down that rutted road inthe middle of the field, and you
let go of the wheel, you'd stayright where are those ruts are,
the wheels would just keepgoing. If you wanted to drive
(18:04):
somewhere else down that road,you need to steer yourself out
of the ruts. And you need tohold the wheel there.
Ultimately, you will make a newpath going a different
direction, but it takes sometime. And it takes some
consistency. And so it's thesame way with our brains. We've
(18:26):
if we've done things the sameway for 20 3040 5060 years,
we've got some pretty deeppathways in our brain, we can
shift them, but it doesn'thappen in 21 days. It doesn't
happen in 30 days. It's there'sthere's not science to back
those 21 days to a new habitthings up. Yeah. So we can
(18:50):
change if we want to, and ifwe're willing to be put the
consistent effort and I thinkthat's exciting.
Margarita Gurri (18:55):
What are some steps we can take to change?
Mary Kutheis (19:00):
The first is being aware of our thinking, have you
ever been in one of thosesituations where I like to call
it being wrapped around thespoke of something unhelpful?
It's just you know, maybe yousaid something or you did
something or you forgotsomething, and you just can't
you think about it every day alittle bit? Or just you realize
(19:26):
you've been thinking about it alot for a week or a month? Well,
if we can think realize thatwe're thinking in that pattern,
that unhelpful patterns soonerand and proactively shift our
way out of it. Think about howmuch stress we'd save. But the
(19:47):
problem is our brain kind ofgoes on its path like it's like
it's got a mind of its own. Andand all of a sudden we realize
we've been worried about something for a week, that that
hasn't changed anything, theworry, or the regret or the
whatever. If we didn't catch itin the first hour and say, let
(20:11):
me shift this to a more helpfulway of thinking so that it will
be useful. And I'll be creatingvalue instead of just eating
away at my brain for a
Yonason Goldson (20:20):
week. So what are some
Margarita Gurri (20:22):
other steps, then
Mary Kutheis (20:25):
the understanding what triggers a person, knowing
what your triggers are knowingwhether situations or the way
people talk to you, oroccasions, have stage fright, or
going to a party, or all thedifferent kinds of things that
(20:48):
can trigger our unhelpful waysof thinking. Because if we, if
we know what a trigger is, andthen we're aware, when we're
approaching a trigger, we can beeven more proactive about
shifting our thinking. The idea,in fact, it's one of the ideas
behind meditation is simply tobe aware of our thinking.
Yonason Goldson (21:16):
I learned
Mary Kutheis (21:19):
several years ago, we people get frustrated about
meditation, because it's like,oh, I can't clear my mind, I
can't clear my mind. Well, oneof the things about it, is, it's
not really about clearing yourmind, or what I learned, and you
probably already know, was whenyou are focusing on your
breathing, and then you realize,oh, I'm not focusing on my
breathing anymore. You'resuccessfully meditating. Because
(21:42):
what you're trying to do isbeing aware of your thoughts.
And to not let them run away. Soif you are meditating for five
minutes, and 30 times in thatfive minutes, you realize you
have veered away from focusingon your breath, you have six,
you're successfully meditating,because you're practicing to be
aware of your thoughts forlonger and longer periods of
(22:05):
time.
Yonason Goldson (22:06):
That's a really interesting point is, you know,
I heard Daniel Goleman speakingabout this in a lecture. And it
was it was a tremendous insightfor me. And it's something that
really has many ramifications,that what appears to be failure
is often success. And until theapproach meditation with that
(22:30):
idea, we know that our thoughtsare going to drift. And the
whole idea is to catch them asthey drift, and then bring,
bring our focus back. And youmentioned a couple of things
that challenge some of theconventional wisdom that's
become very popular that 2021day, rewiring your brain model.
(22:53):
And, and you also talked aboutabout aphorisms, or some have
been calling the visualizations.
And I've heard a number ofpeople saying that that changed
their lives, when they startedthe affirmations. Is there a
place for that? In your model?
Mary Kutheis (23:14):
Yeah, so absolutely. I think, honestly, I
think it's whatever works forsomeone. I mean, there's a I
mean, I, when I was when I waswriting my book on time, I think
I went out there and there was,I don't know, some crazy million
number of books on timemanagement. And the reason that
they're out there is becausethey worked for at least the
(23:34):
person who wrote it for me, butthere is no one right answer for
anything really. People willdiffer on on just about
everything. And if theaffirmation worked great. That
is, that's all that matters. Theproblem that I had with the 21
(23:58):
day and I talked about this alot is because people beat
themselves up because they can'tsucceed it that I did it for 21
days. And on the 22nd day, Icompletely forgot. And now I
mean, I guess I'm a failurebecause it didn't work for me.
Well, it doesn't work foranybody. I figured out where it
came from, by accident wherethat whole myth started. And it
(24:21):
was never meant to be that youcould create a new behavioral,
new behavior in 21 days thatwould stick without thinking
about it. Because that new habithabit,
Margarita Gurri (24:35):
right, was about habit development. Yeah. I
think it's funny that any of uswould think that one thing would
work for everyone. Yeah, yeah,exactly. We don't all agree on
whether salt is good or not. Youknow, we can agree on. You know,
that Latin music is the bestroute rabbi. I mean, really. We
(24:57):
can't even agree on that. Hitthe
Yonason Goldson (24:59):
play button dark. You're on.
Margarita Gurri (25:03):
It's interesting. Well, it's exciting
what you're doing. I think thatleadership is a great time for
folks to understand how muchthey impact others. And so let's
discuss this. So I am a leader.
And I'm in the audience. And I'mwanting to take the the
assessment, right that youtalked about Peter Donruss
(25:26):
assessment that I see his name,right.
Mary Kutheis (25:31):
Yeah. Peter.
Peter. Well, there's there'sthree people Peter Demarest
Harvey Show. And, and Tracyduez, who created this
particular. I mean, RobertHartman created the assessment,
but this report that comes outof it was created by those
Margarita Gurri (25:47):
guys. So if I want to take the assessment,
what do I get back in thisreport? And then how does that
impact me as a leader?
Mary Kutheis (25:55):
Well, what comes back in the report is we have
36, different perspectives. Andthere are 18 worldview, and 18
self view. So in the fullreport, you find out where you
land on these 36 differentperspectives. And with that
(26:18):
information, there are biases,which is the unhelpful ways of
thinking or liabilities, andthen there are assets. And so
what you learn is, what yourbiases are, we use biases and
liabilities is synonymous, youlearn what those are, and then
(26:40):
through some self reflection,you learn what triggers those
ways of thinking. And and thenyou become more aware of your
assets. Because both your biasesin your assets are habitual, we
think that we without evenknowing we're thinking that way.
So if we can proactively say,oh, here I am with a bias not
(27:03):
this isn't good. Asking yourselfthe central question, what
choice? Can I make an action?
Can I take Well, in this moment,I can shift to this asset. That
is a much more helpful way toapproach this than the way I
was. And so that I mean, that'skey that's foundational to the
training. And it's called selfleadership. Because we've all
(27:23):
run into ineffective leaders outthere. And one of the challenges
is that if we can't leadourselves, how can we
effectively lead other people?
It happens, but we'd be so muchbetter if we understood
ourselves before we start tryingto lead others.
Margarita Gurri (27:45):
There doesn't seem to be a requirement for
many people in leadershippositions. Sadly, I I vote that
they all take this assessmentand yeah, be invited to ponder
thoughtfully, that would begood. Well, Robert, we've been
talking about some lovelythings. I'm thinking it's time
for the word of the day. Or the
Yonason Goldson (28:07):
day I'm actually debating between two
but I think I'm going to choosemechem and dies.
Margarita Gurri (28:14):
I don't know that one. Oh,
Yonason Goldson (28:16):
I don't think I pronounced it right. Maybe
Margarita Gurri (28:20):
that's okay. I wouldn't know. If we don't know
is it wrong? I mean, reallymagical interesting. The
Yonason Goldson (28:31):
word is epistemology then we can get
into that. mathematize No, wemay have to edit this out. No, I
gotta write maca. Maca. macadamlives. There we go. All right,
we'll get there sooner or later.
Well, what the heck is hasnothing to deal with with
(28:53):
Hawaiian nuts?
Margarita Gurri (28:58):
Well, what a shame because I knew that's the
fork I knew.
Yonason Goldson (29:02):
It means to pave by laying and compacting
successive layers of brokenstone. Oh, you guessed I was
going to talk about this. Not atall. Thank you. But it occurred
to me Mary because you use theexample of the of the rutted
road. And and the two kinds ofroads one one kind of road will
(29:25):
steer us where we want to gowithout us doing much work. But
if we want to change course,it's going to be very difficult.
And we also talked about howapparent failure is often
success or that puts us on thepath to success. So the idea of
(29:46):
taking broken stones, which aregenerally thought of as rubble
or waste or something that hasno use, finding a way to
repurpose those, and to put themin a context where now They
become something that isbeneficial. Just because we see
that situations around us arebroken. Maybe we feel we're
(30:11):
broken at times, because wehaven't succeeded. But out of
that failure, and I often quoteWinston Churchill that the
definition of success is goingfrom failure to failure with no
loss of enthusiasm, to takethose broken pieces and put them
together, we can often createsomething that is going to lead
us forward in ways that mayultimately be more beneficial.
(30:35):
And had things gone smoothly forus in the beginning. Yeah,
Mary Kutheis (30:46):
the, the challenging way is always going
to be more educational.
Especially if you're going tohelp other people come along
that path behind you. If it waseasy, then there won't be any
understanding of the challengesthat other people face.
Yonason Goldson (31:03):
You know, they often say that the best coaches
were the were more mediocreplayers. Because the natural
athletes don't really know howto teach other people to be
successful. Yeah, went out thereand did it. Yeah, who really
struggled. They're the ones wholearned the process and can now
use that to teach others.
Margarita Gurri (31:25):
failures, a good teacher.
Mary Kutheis (31:29):
And the end the idea of using using the broken
rocks, it also kind of goes backto letting nothing go to waste.
Everything has a use, everythinghas a value, if we just look at
it properly.
Margarita Gurri (31:47):
And yet, look at how often speaking of EQ,
look at how often people full ofshame or blame and hide the
mistakes they've made. Theydistort the failures to be
someone else's fault or alltheir fault. And they don't
understand that they're makinguseful rebel, that and they
decide that is not meaningful,so they distort it, then we look
(32:10):
good all those athletes or otherfamous leaders who cheat who
distort the facts, who do allsorts of things. Because somehow
they're not valuing the rubbleof just everyday experience,
it's interesting.
Mary Kutheis (32:30):
kind of goes back to that whole insecurity thing,
when we can be vulnerable andadmit our shortcomings or the
time when we did not live up toour own values. Well, and let's
go
Margarita Gurri (32:45):
beyond that admit to revel in our revel in
our value struggles. I think itgoes back to shame and blame.
Mary Kutheis (32:56):
That's a good point.
Margarita Gurri (32:58):
Let's revel in it. You know, my father used to
ask, what's the best mistake youmake today? At the dinner table
and want to talk about it. Myfather was a Freudian shrink. I
know you could smell it on me.
But we'd ask questions likethat. So what was the best
mistake that President made? Orthe whoever was on TV at the
moment? What do you thinkhappened with everyone in the
(33:21):
world when they saw thatmistake? Questions like that,
like he would think about the360 point of view. And I think
that's what crushed leaders.
Sorry, bad pun, Rabbi. I thinkcrushed leaders often don't look
at what was the advantage of mymistake, and how did it impact
people positively. So they hidethe mistakes or shift the blame
(33:47):
to someone else?
Yonason Goldson (33:48):
You know, I you know, I often look for biblical
references, but the first kingof Israel was King Saul, and he
was not successful. And thesages explained that he had
lived kind of a charmed lifebefore he became king. He was
tall, he was handsome, he wastalented, he people people
adored him and revered him. Andwhen he became king, he was
(34:14):
untested. And so he didn't haveconfidence in himself back again
to our insecurity. And so he waseasily he relied too much on his
advisors and his advisors becameobsessed with their own power.
And they misled him andunfortunately, eventually led
him into into failure. He wassucceeded by King David. King
(34:37):
David had had a very difficultyouth. He had struggled, he had
not been respected, he had toovercome tremendous obstacles.
And when he became king, he waspoised to not take the step up
to that leadership role. Becausehe'd come through so much he was
confident in his own abilitiesand so on. You know, we really
(35:01):
do like, if we take it into intochild racing, the these
terminologies that have becomepopular, the helicopter parent
who hovers or the drill sergeantparent who says we're gonna do
this and do that, and now theytalk about the, the snowplow
parent who just wants to pushall the obstacles out of the
way, we're not doing ourchildren disservice by not
(35:24):
letting them fail and learn fromtheir failures. That's what
leadership really is. It's, it'sempowering others to be the best
they can be.
Mary Kutheis (35:37):
One of the worst things that people seem to think
they can call others is a flipflopper changing their opinion,
because they decided somethingone way 10 years ago, and now
they think differently. And Ithink, Boy, what about a person
who can say, You know what, Igot new information. And now I
think differently. I thinkthat's actually a pretty smart
(36:00):
thing. And also to be willing tosay, I've changed my mind. I
think that says a whole lotabout a person.
Margarita Gurri (36:09):
I think so too.
And especially if they can say,if you have new experiences or
new information, new data, new,whatever, new ponderings that is
not just a flip flop, it maylook like a flip flop. I love
people who are always growing. Ithink it's very exciting. It's
fun to fun to talk about, aboutthe changes, you know, wisdom.
(36:31):
Around the time of COVID. Manypeople were so embarrassed that
they couldn't pay their billsand stuff. But many people say
hey, I was struggling. And thisis what I did. And those are the
people who had, I think moreauthentic leadership. Because we
followed those people. They werescared and they admitted it and
they move forward. So I thinkthat what you're giving is a
(36:53):
model for people to lovethemselves, and ponder
fearlessly.
Mary Kutheis (37:04):
I love the way I love that how that sounds.
Margarita Gurri (37:11):
The rabbi and I are big fans of pondering.
Mary Kutheis (37:14):
I could I could have been a professional ponder.
I think can you are actuallypeople who sit around in coffee
shops and just chat and talkabout things. And I that would
have been a great way to livehardware. We started thinking
Yonason Goldson (37:29):
the same thing.
Margarita Gurri (37:31):
Well, there you go. Or maybe it was good
funding, or maybe a podcastrather. So actually, the rabbi
and I were talking about howmany of us when we get too busy,
stop reading or stop doingwasting time activities. And
that is actually the time whenwe're pondering fearlessly. I
mean, we meander, we have ideas,and when people are fed up with
what they're doing, so whatwould you do? Without any, any
(37:57):
limits? What would you rather bedoing? What do you know? Ask
people the big question withoutlimits. And I think that's kind
of fun. Well, speaking oflimits, are we've coming to a
certain time? So Eric, what,what would be some words of
wisdom that you would share withall the listeners?
Mary Kutheis (38:17):
It's gonna be repeating myself a little bit,
but that central question whenyou when you know it, and before
I committed it to memory, I hadit on sticky notes everywhere.
It is, it's astounding how oftenit is useful in big ways and
small.
Margarita Gurri (38:37):
So what is it again? What is the central
question?
Mary Kutheis (38:41):
Again, central question is, what choice? Can I
make an action? Can I take inthis moment, to create the
greatest net value? I mean, itcan be, am I going to say that
thing? Or am I not gonna saythat thing? Am I going to do
this chore or not do that chore?
Am I gonna get involved in thisassociation or not? I mean,
it's, it's, it's just a way topurposefully think about the
(39:06):
choices that we're making. Andwe have lots of them. And I
think it's very empowering. Andit also takes back our, our
control is strong our freewill,I suppose. You know, it's just
we can decide what we're goingto do.
Margarita Gurri (39:30):
Having a thought does not compel us to
action. There's a concept. Yeah.
How
Mary Kutheis (39:35):
about that? Yeah.
Yonason Goldson (39:36):
That doesn't make us an authentic either. No,
correct.
Margarita Gurri (39:41):
So what is the next what is it you're doing for
fun these days? What are youlooking forward to doing? Well,
Mary Kutheis (39:47):
this might just be as boring as can be, but I love
my work so much. It took me avery long time. I mean, I'm 61
now and it took me a long timeto get to the place where I No,
I'm doing exactly what I was puthere to do. So congratulations.
Thank you. So when I, when I getto work with with clients, when
(40:09):
I get to have conversations likethis, I'm just as happy as can
be. Aside from that, lovelies, Ilove my dogs spending time and I
started a couple of hobbiesbecause I've never been
artistic. And so I've started tolearn calligraphy. And I'm doing
this thing called Zentangle.
Margarita Gurri (40:32):
I don't know what that is, let's pretend I
don't understand it. What is
Mary Kutheis (40:35):
it? Zentangle is essentially this sport. It's
it's artistic meditation, whereyou make designs on a four inch
square of paper, and there's noway to do it wrong. And so, and
you do it in ink, there is nobut there are no mistakes. But
(40:57):
it's it's kind of a way to justimmerse yourself in the little
piece of work that you're doing.
And know that there is no,you're not drawing specific
pictures that are supposed tolook like anything, it's
designs. And so for someone whois fearful of making terrible
art, it's a wonderful art form.
Margarita Gurri (41:20):
And the eyes are open. Pardon? The eyes are
open when you're doingZentangle.
Mary Kutheis (41:25):
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's literally you're using
these little Micron pens. Andyou draw I mean, you just draw
designs. And there's, you know,there's a method behind it.
There's actually a weighted,maybe even Certified Zentangle
Teacher, but it's just a verymeditative way to do art. And
for some, again, for someonewho, oh, I'm not artistic, I can
(41:46):
write, but I've never been, likevisually artistic and it, it
kind of opens it up and says,Well, yeah, I can be,
Margarita Gurri (41:54):
well, how fun for you that you're branching
out and doing these cool things.
That's really neat.
Yonason Goldson (42:00):
Yeah, that's me about athletes, friends,
baseball players. Many of themplay golf. And they do it
specifically because golf usesdifferent muscles, and different
coordination than baseball. Andso why should they be doing
something like that, because youhave to develop the whole
(42:22):
person. And so we always sayplay to your strengths, do the
things you're good at. And thatmay be true most of the time.
But to not completely neglectthose other parts of ourselves.
Because we need, we need all ofour brains, we all have our
bodies, we need to be integratedand holistic in what we do and
(42:43):
giving ourselves outlets. Thatmay seem a little frivolous, may
in fact, be something that'sserving us much more later in
the work that is our mostmeaningful work. Rather,
Margarita Gurri (42:57):
what is your creative outlet these days?
Yonason Goldson (43:03):
My creative outlet? That's a good question.
I should work on that.
Margarita Gurri (43:08):
You can ponder I'll do that. Yeah, I know
you've been working awfullyhard. It's funny when we're on a
on a path. Sometimes we get soinvolved in it that and maybe
that's okay to do it that youjust focus on something for a
(43:28):
while. I don't think I don'tthink we have to balance every
moment. Nor every week. I thinkit's okay to dive into stuff.
And then take a break. I reallydon't think we have to have you
know, total balance all thetime.
Yonason Goldson (43:44):
Yeah, I think for me, it's really exercise. I
work out five or six days aweek. And I can't miss it. It's
it's so important to my health,not my physical health. I mean
that too, but my mental healthto be able to have that time
when I'm just by my side, I godownstairs in my basement I have
(44:06):
some rudimentary equipment andjust to have that time by myself
focusing on working up a sweatgetting my muscles working it's
so it
Margarita Gurri (44:17):
clears the mind to doesn't you know for like all
of us like calligraphy. I mean,that's certainly a great way to
clear the mind.
Mary Kutheis (44:24):
What would you think if someone said their
habit hobby was sitting on theirporch swing?
Margarita Gurri (44:31):
That's a fine hobby is because they're
outside. They're seeing peopleand animals. I mean, I have my
cup of coffee every morning withone of my daughters, wherever
I'm visiting. And we we call iteither porch time or deck time
wherever we are. And we have acup of coffee and we talk or we
don't and it's lovely. I lovethat anchors my for me the mid
(44:56):
mornings I wake up super early,but it anchors my mid morning
you know like No
Yonason Goldson (45:01):
matter where you live in St. Louis, where I
do and the amount of days we canactually sit on the porch, with
the minimal weather are prettylimited. So, opportunities
arrive.
Margarita Gurri (45:14):
Again, I think that even if it's really cold,
it's like being camping and youjust bundle up and go outside, I
think it's very nice. I thinkthat there's a lot of pressure
to look productive. And so a lotof people lose productivity by
working too hard. And I think wehave to spend time wasting time
and playing and be creative, anddoing things that don't look
(45:37):
productive. I think it helps usbe more productive.
Mary Kutheis (45:42):
In my, in my book I talked about I'm not a fan of
productivity. I mean, it'sagain, one of the reasons is
because people will people don'tever think of a productive nap.
Margarita Gurri (45:54):
Well, but they can be very productive. But if
we have you one of your famousmind shifts, they do. Yeah, I
think that depends on how wedefine productivity. But I think
productivity is like mydefinition of being a grown up.
People who do what they need todo in a timely manner. So you
can play play play, that, forme, productivity is the same as
efficiency, you've got thesystems that people the
(46:16):
resources, the mindset thatprocesses and lay and then you
work at it, and then you'd like.
And I think we have to giveourselves up. Playtime is kind
of it's fascinating.
Mary Kutheis (46:25):
I agree that productivity is part of the
process, not the end goal.
Margarita Gurri (46:30):
Yeah, I think so. So that you can have time to
play. And, you know, with COVID,the rabbi and I started a bunch
of new projects separately andtogether. And it's been
interesting, it's been fun, butit's a lot of work. So we're
both learning how to have morefun again. And it's been I mean,
(46:50):
we have fun, both of us nomatter what we do, but more on
purpose fun, you know, off task,one that I think has been very
helpful to our thinking so well,you've been really generous with
your time and we reallyappreciate your input. I could
only see that as your successfulgrow more and more. What is the
(47:11):
best way to reach you?
Mary Kutheis (47:15):
Probably via my website, which is pretty easy.
It's m c k coaching.com. And aMary in front of that, Mary at
is my email. So definitely, youcan contact me through my
website, and I happy to chatwith anybody about this kind of
stuff could talk all day.
Margarita Gurri (47:36):
And they can certainly explore your you know,
the assessment, or sure they arewith their values and all so
that would be good. Yeah. Well,Rabbi, do you have any last
word, sir?
Yonason Goldson (47:48):
No, I think we've left in a good place.
Margarita Gurri (47:51):
I think so too.
Well, we thank everyone forbeing on this episode of The
rabbi in the shrink with Marycouth. Nice learning about
thinking and it's important toattach it to our values, and
they can set you free. We'll seeyou on another episode of The
rabbi in a shrink be well andhave fun.
Unknown (48:13):
Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink
every day ethics unscripted, twobook Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita
Drewery, or Rabbi Jonas andGoldson as speakers or advisors
for your organization, contactthem at the rabbi and the
shrink.com. This has been adoctor Red Shoe production
Welcome to The Rabbi and The Shrink. This is
Dr. Margarita Guri, the shrink.
And here's my favorite rabbi.
Yonason Goldson (00:11):
Yonason Goldson.
Margarita Gurri (00:12):
Well the good rabbi and I have with us, Mary
Kutheis. Welcome, Mary.
Mary Kutheis (00:18):
Thank you for having me. I'm here.
Margarita Gurri (00:20):
We're delighted Actually, today we're talking
about linking thinking to longterm success. And I know you on
the rabbi's grappling with agreat podcast. And he said how
excited you were about when heasked about x eugenics? So I
thought, why don't we startthere? And then I'll brag a
little about you. So tell us whyare you so excited about x
(00:43):
oragenics? Well,
Mary Kutheis (00:45):
most people haven't heard of the term x
eugenics, it's fairly new. Andwhat it is, is the axiology is
the science of value. Andneuroscience, as we know, is a
study of the brain. So when youbring the science of value and
the study of the brain together,you get access to eugenics. And
essentially, what it is, is howwe think. So how we think is at
(01:11):
the root of everything we do. Imean, if you put that
practically think aboutsomething that you do, that
doesn't start in your braindoesn't start with thinking
unconsciously or consciously orsubconsciously, it's all there.
So when we can have moreunderstanding about how we
think, and we can be moreproactive about thinking in ways
(01:35):
that are helpful, we can changeall sorts of results, not only
for ourselves, but for ourcommunity and the world at
large.
Yonason Goldson (01:43):
There's a story I heard, I remember where I
heard his on Tom, Bill uspodcast, I remember who was
telling it is talking aboutabout someone who was became a
very, very successful publisher.
And he had been an unsuccessfulhigh school student, and figured
he may not even graduate, it wasgoing to find some menial job.
(02:04):
And he got his SATs score back.
And he got in the 1300s 1400s.
That, wow, I never did well onanything before. Maybe I'm not
as dumb as I think I am. And hestarted working a little bit.
And he finished high schoolstrong, went to college did well
became extremely successful inbusiness. And I think it was
(02:28):
like 10, or 15 years later, hegot a letter from the sap board.
And it said, we're letting youknow, there was an error in the
results. And this is your realscore. And it was like in the
nine hundreds. Wow. And, youknow, he just looked back on
(02:53):
this, he thought, because Ithought I was smart. I started
acting smart. And I becamesuccessful. And if he would have
gotten his regular scores back,he would have just confirmed his
belief that he was never goingto go anywhere in life. And we
never would We wouldn't betelling this story right now.
But it just I think it speaks tothe essence of of your, how you
(03:16):
just summed up Axia Genex. This,this intersection between the
story we tell ourselves and whowe actually become.
Mary Kutheis (03:32):
Yeah, it's so fascinating when you think about
I mean, most people who havestudied any kind of parenting
know, it's terrible to tell yourchild you're not a good reader
or all those terrible things.
Because the more we tell them,that kind of thing, the more
they will absorb it and believethat. And the same thing. When
(03:53):
they do well. Not saying you'reso smart. But you put in such
effort, and it really paid offfor you. And then they learned
that it's effort, not justnatural smarts that got them
where they are.
Margarita Gurri (04:09):
Absolutely. And there's several studies about
that. They tell half the peoplein a room, that they're really
smart. And then they give him abunch of hard problems to solve.
And then they the other half,they tell them you guys are
super hard working. And you're Iknow you'll persevere. Well, in
(04:30):
the end, the smart kids ended upcheating or quitting because
they thought when they couldn'tget it that they weren't smart.
And the kids who were told thateffort was more important. Keep
at it, and so of course they didbetter. So I think that's
important. How did you get intoall this? I mean, what were you
doing before? I know you'reyou're a coach of lots of
(04:51):
coaching certificates,professional executive exogenic
foundational team coaching. Howdid you get to this exogenic
part of your life? Well,
Mary Kutheis (05:02):
I started my business 22 years ago, I was
disenchanted with corporateAmerica. And so you'll say No, I
know, I know, we were in theprocess of adopting our son. And
I thought, boy, I can't, I can'tgo back into a job that I really
do not enjoy, and put our sonthat we work so hard to get in
(05:24):
daycare, and so on. So myhusband said, well quit and
figure something else out. Soit's kind of morphed over the
years. But I had been fascinatedsince really, since I was a
little kid, about how we think,how we behave. How we, as
humans, communicate andinteract. And so it's really all
(05:47):
built on itself as this has gonealong. And then I have actually
been using this, the hierarchyof value is the assessment. And
I've been using it withsomething else. But it was very
dense, very sciency. And when Icame across Peter Demarest and
his work, and I thought, Oh, mygoodness, here's this assessment
that I think is so, sobrilliant. But what comes out of
(06:11):
it is something that the averageperson can use, that's when I
got really excited about it,because you can take this, it's
a fairly dense axiology is afairly dense science. But the
outcome of it understanding ourthinking from both self
perspectives and worldperspectives, it just can create
such enormous shifts for us, andit's the power behind it is
(06:35):
amazing. And, and even, we,you've probably heard of how
important emotional intelligenceis. And I completely agree. And
as a precursor to that, I mean,because we can change our EQ if
we work on it. But if we canchange our Learn to change our
thinking, it's going to make anyother self or professional
(06:57):
development that we do better,because at the root of any
change we're trying to make ishow we think.
Margarita Gurri (07:03):
Which brings us back to ethics rabbi,
Yonason Goldson (07:06):
yeah. And it really got me thinking, it's a
continuous form of thought, forme that I come from a very sort
of structured, theologicalorientation. So for me values
are taught they're handed down.
When you talk to people whodon't have that religious
(07:26):
background, or religiousfoundation orientation, that
values can become a much morecomplicated conversation, do you
have a way of approaching theconcept of what are whether we
call them authentic values areuniversal values or healthy
values? What happens if somebodysays, Well, my values are XY and
(07:48):
Z, and most of us wouldn'tactually think of those as
appropriate values.
Mary Kutheis (07:56):
I think we're seeing a lot of it more publicly
these days than we, that atleast I have in my lifetime.
When we value money, or when wevalue power, or when we value,
prestige, all those kinds ofthings. Those are legitimate
(08:21):
values, I suppose. And yet, theycan also be separators, if you
will, if someone may value moneyabove all else, but that's going
(08:41):
to impact how other peopleinteract with them, and probably
narrow the circle to people whofind that to be a an acceptable
value.
Yonason Goldson (08:54):
When you're associated with people whose
values may not be ultimatelyhealthy. So now you got the
compounded problem of mycommunity is not supporting me
and one out the way either.
Mary Kutheis (09:06):
Yeah. And when they see that old thing, spend
your time around the fivepeople, you become the five
people that you spend your timearound. So be very careful.
choose very carefully. And yeah,I think when we when we are in
alignment, with our core values,were in a good place. When we
(09:27):
are out of alignment, it's verydifficult for us. And just
because we have a value doesn'tmean we're always in alignment
with it. But we try.
Margarita Gurri (09:38):
Yeah, we do.
And I think one of the thingsthat the rabbi and I have seen
that as people have moreconfidence and more emotional
intelligence, they're morelikely to abandon a fear based
philosophy of I need more power,so I value power. I need to have
all these plastic surgeriesbecause I I value looking good,
(09:58):
because that's the best I've gotor, you know, things like that.
And we're noticing how. Andwe're trying to contaminate the
world with values baseddiscussions, where people have
the courage to explore ideas andthoughts that are different from
what they thought they had aredifferent from other people.
Mary Kutheis (10:23):
I've written some about how, in terms of
leadership, what always gets inthe way of being a good leader
is one or more of the followingpower, insecurity and greed. And
insecurity is remarkably at theroot of a lot. Because an
(10:47):
insecure person seeks the powerand the money to build up
something that they don't haveinside.
Yonason Goldson (10:57):
You know, that that insecurity also leads to
more extreme outlooks on life,because those tend to be more
simplistic. And if I haven'treason to my way, to a solid
outlook, that, by necessity,acknowledges the complexities
(11:19):
and the gray areas and theparadoxes and contradictions
that I'm, I'm secure with theunderstanding that life is
complicated, then I'm going toretreat into these more
simplistic worldviews andassociated with people who are
similar like simplistic in theirviews, and now we have
(11:42):
groupthink. And we havetribalism. And we have this sort
of political mess that we, weread so much about in the
headlines.
Margarita Gurri (11:50):
And it's, it's frightening. If, if you could
save the world with a questionor something for people to
ponder, what would it be? Howcan you because I know you talk
about little, little minute orminute shifts you were talking
about this wonderful play onwere very clever. What would be
(12:11):
the question that you would havepeople ponder to inspire that
shift?
Mary Kutheis (12:16):
I'm so glad you asked that. Well, me too. As
part of X eugenics, there is thecentral question. And it is at
the core of how we choose tomove forward at any time. And it
is this what choice can I make?
And action? Can I take in thismoment, to create the greatest
net value?
Margarita Gurri (12:42):
Could you say that, again, that was profound?
Mary Kutheis (12:44):
I can, what choice can I make, and action can I
take in this moment, to createthe greatest net value. And a
couple of the important thingsin there is that we don't give
value and we don't get value, wecreate value, we have the
ability to create value. And netvalue doesn't necessarily mean
(13:08):
everyone will be happy for it,if someone is failing terribly
at their job, and you've triedand tried and try to work them
through that, but ultimately,it's going to be better for the
company and the team and theclient that they work with. And
and even maybe the person that'sbeing let go, I would
Margarita Gurri (13:28):
say especially the person being like go, it
should be exciting and scary.
But if we don't belongsomewhere, that means somewhere
else needs us or we belong.
Yeah.
Mary Kutheis (13:40):
The even in the moment, if they don't, they
might not think oh, this isgreat for me. But ultimately,
the net value is better for thembecause they find a place where
they do fit where they canthrive. And so it's looking at
all of those different aspectsof any situation where what is
not just not what's the best forme. And it also not completely
(14:03):
negating oneself and say what'sbest for everybody else that I
shouldn't, nothing matters aboutme. It's it's looking at all the
pieces, and how can we createthe greatest net value?
Yonason Goldson (14:16):
Message, isn't it?
Margarita Gurri (14:18):
I'm sorry, Rob, I
Yonason Goldson (14:19):
think it's an empowering message. I don't
know, I don't feel that I am avictim of circumstance. I don't
feel that I really have to justgo along with whatever my
circumstances are. But rather Ibecome the one who defines the
environment I live in and I takeresponsibility for the change
(14:43):
that I can make in the world.
And if we, you know, if more ofus feel that way. Then we're
going to be looking for partnerscollaborators, opportunities to
take advantage of and society isgoing to benefit as a Hallward
benefits individuals No.
Margarita Gurri (15:02):
And we have to create systems to follow that
up. Because I think sometimespeople say, Okay, I've, I've
thought about my values. I'vepicked my five people. I'm just
gonna coast. And the problemwith coasting is the rabbi and
I, you know, and you know, very,is that there's ethical fading.
And we have to rethink things,constantly asking the question
(15:26):
again, what's the right thing todo? What fits? So what are you
doing it help people refreshthis commitment to the
institute? Genex?
Mary Kutheis (15:39):
Well, it's a little bit of a, it's a little
bit of a conundrum in thismoment, because it's, it's new.
In the 90s, emotionalintelligence was new, not very
many people had heard of EQ. Andnow, lots of lots and lots of
people have, it's a very commonthing. Well, the queue is kind
of in the 90s EQ stage, wherepeople are just not as they're
(16:05):
not aware of it at all. And thenunderstanding how it applies to
one's own development is alittle bit of a challenge to I
think there's only there's lessthan 30 of us that are currently
certified in the assessment andthe training and that kind of
thing. So we're working hard togrow it. And, and the idea that
(16:28):
it's putting the power in thehands of the people to utilize
their best ways of thinking. Sohopefully, people find that
intriguing. And think it's notabout motivational posters, or
affirmations. It's really aboutunderstanding how you think,
(16:50):
shifting away from less helpfulways. And using our more helpful
ways of thinking which we donaturally we do habitually,
we're just not aware of
Margarita Gurri (17:01):
it. So tell us about the brain. Because we're
talking about, you know, thescience and the study of the
brain as well. What is it weneed to remember about the brain
a for going to move forward inthe most productive way?
Mary Kutheis (17:20):
That's a really scary question, because I have a
limited knowledge. However, Ithink the thing that I can I
mean about scientifically aboutthe brain. But I think the one
thing that is exciting is theplasticity of the brain, that
for a long time, people thoughtthat the way it is is the way it
(17:41):
is. But what we know now is thatwe can change neural pathways to
ones that are more helpful in inprograms, I'll put a picture of
a rutted road on the screen. Andif you were to be driving your
truck down that rutted road inthe middle of the field, and you
let go of the wheel, you'd stayright where are those ruts are,
the wheels would just keepgoing. If you wanted to drive
(18:04):
somewhere else down that road,you need to steer yourself out
of the ruts. And you need tohold the wheel there.
Ultimately, you will make a newpath going a different
direction, but it takes sometime. And it takes some
consistency. And so it's thesame way with our brains. We've
(18:26):
if we've done things the sameway for 20 3040 5060 years,
we've got some pretty deeppathways in our brain, we can
shift them, but it doesn'thappen in 21 days. It doesn't
happen in 30 days. It's there'sthere's not science to back
those 21 days to a new habitthings up. Yeah. So we can
(18:50):
change if we want to, and ifwe're willing to be put the
consistent effort and I thinkthat's exciting.
Margarita Gurri (18:55):
What are some steps we can take to change?
Mary Kutheis (19:00):
The first is being aware of our thinking, have you
ever been in one of thosesituations where I like to call
it being wrapped around thespoke of something unhelpful?
It's just you know, maybe yousaid something or you did
something or you forgotsomething, and you just can't
you think about it every day alittle bit? Or just you realize
(19:26):
you've been thinking about it alot for a week or a month? Well,
if we can think realize thatwe're thinking in that pattern,
that unhelpful patterns soonerand and proactively shift our
way out of it. Think about howmuch stress we'd save. But the
(19:47):
problem is our brain kind ofgoes on its path like it's like
it's got a mind of its own. Andand all of a sudden we realize
we've been worried about something for a week, that that
hasn't changed anything, theworry, or the regret or the
whatever. If we didn't catch itin the first hour and say, let
(20:11):
me shift this to a more helpfulway of thinking so that it will
be useful. And I'll be creatingvalue instead of just eating
away at my brain for a
Yonason Goldson (20:20):
week. So what are some
Margarita Gurri (20:22):
other steps, then
Mary Kutheis (20:25):
the understanding what triggers a person, knowing
what your triggers are knowingwhether situations or the way
people talk to you, oroccasions, have stage fright, or
going to a party, or all thedifferent kinds of things that
(20:48):
can trigger our unhelpful waysof thinking. Because if we, if
we know what a trigger is, andthen we're aware, when we're
approaching a trigger, we can beeven more proactive about
shifting our thinking. The idea,in fact, it's one of the ideas
behind meditation is simply tobe aware of our thinking.
Yonason Goldson (21:16):
I learned
Mary Kutheis (21:19):
several years ago, we people get frustrated about
meditation, because it's like,oh, I can't clear my mind, I
can't clear my mind. Well, oneof the things about it, is, it's
not really about clearing yourmind, or what I learned, and you
probably already know, was whenyou are focusing on your
breathing, and then you realize,oh, I'm not focusing on my
breathing anymore. You'resuccessfully meditating. Because
(21:42):
what you're trying to do isbeing aware of your thoughts.
And to not let them run away. Soif you are meditating for five
minutes, and 30 times in thatfive minutes, you realize you
have veered away from focusingon your breath, you have six,
you're successfully meditating,because you're practicing to be
aware of your thoughts forlonger and longer periods of
(22:05):
time.
Yonason Goldson (22:06):
That's a really interesting point is, you know,
I heard Daniel Goleman speakingabout this in a lecture. And it
was it was a tremendous insightfor me. And it's something that
really has many ramifications,that what appears to be failure
is often success. And until theapproach meditation with that
(22:30):
idea, we know that our thoughtsare going to drift. And the
whole idea is to catch them asthey drift, and then bring,
bring our focus back. And youmentioned a couple of things
that challenge some of theconventional wisdom that's
become very popular that 2021day, rewiring your brain model.
(22:53):
And, and you also talked aboutabout aphorisms, or some have
been calling the visualizations.
And I've heard a number ofpeople saying that that changed
their lives, when they startedthe affirmations. Is there a
place for that? In your model?
Mary Kutheis (23:14):
Yeah, so absolutely. I think, honestly, I
think it's whatever works forsomeone. I mean, there's a I
mean, I, when I was when I waswriting my book on time, I think
I went out there and there was,I don't know, some crazy million
number of books on timemanagement. And the reason that
they're out there is becausethey worked for at least the
(23:34):
person who wrote it for me, butthere is no one right answer for
anything really. People willdiffer on on just about
everything. And if theaffirmation worked great. That
is, that's all that matters. Theproblem that I had with the 21
(23:58):
day and I talked about this alot is because people beat
themselves up because they can'tsucceed it that I did it for 21
days. And on the 22nd day, Icompletely forgot. And now I
mean, I guess I'm a failurebecause it didn't work for me.
Well, it doesn't work foranybody. I figured out where it
came from, by accident wherethat whole myth started. And it
(24:21):
was never meant to be that youcould create a new behavioral,
new behavior in 21 days thatwould stick without thinking
about it. Because that new habithabit,
Margarita Gurri (24:35):
right, was about habit development. Yeah. I
think it's funny that any of uswould think that one thing would
work for everyone. Yeah, yeah,exactly. We don't all agree on
whether salt is good or not. Youknow, we can agree on. You know,
that Latin music is the bestroute rabbi. I mean, really. We
(24:57):
can't even agree on that. Hitthe
Yonason Goldson (24:59):
play button dark. You're on.
Margarita Gurri (25:03):
It's interesting. Well, it's exciting
what you're doing. I think thatleadership is a great time for
folks to understand how muchthey impact others. And so let's
discuss this. So I am a leader.
And I'm in the audience. And I'mwanting to take the the
assessment, right that youtalked about Peter Donruss
(25:26):
assessment that I see his name,right.
Mary Kutheis (25:31):
Yeah. Peter.
Peter. Well, there's there'sthree people Peter Demarest
Harvey Show. And, and Tracyduez, who created this
particular. I mean, RobertHartman created the assessment,
but this report that comes outof it was created by those
Margarita Gurri (25:47):
guys. So if I want to take the assessment,
what do I get back in thisreport? And then how does that
impact me as a leader?
Mary Kutheis (25:55):
Well, what comes back in the report is we have
36, different perspectives. Andthere are 18 worldview, and 18
self view. So in the fullreport, you find out where you
land on these 36 differentperspectives. And with that
(26:18):
information, there are biases,which is the unhelpful ways of
thinking or liabilities, andthen there are assets. And so
what you learn is, what yourbiases are, we use biases and
liabilities is synonymous, youlearn what those are, and then
(26:40):
through some self reflection,you learn what triggers those
ways of thinking. And and thenyou become more aware of your
assets. Because both your biasesin your assets are habitual, we
think that we without evenknowing we're thinking that way.
So if we can proactively say,oh, here I am with a bias not
(27:03):
this isn't good. Asking yourselfthe central question, what
choice? Can I make an action?
Can I take Well, in this moment,I can shift to this asset. That
is a much more helpful way toapproach this than the way I
was. And so that I mean, that'skey that's foundational to the
training. And it's called selfleadership. Because we've all
(27:23):
run into ineffective leaders outthere. And one of the challenges
is that if we can't leadourselves, how can we
effectively lead other people?
It happens, but we'd be so muchbetter if we understood
ourselves before we start tryingto lead others.
Margarita Gurri (27:45):
There doesn't seem to be a requirement for
many people in leadershippositions. Sadly, I I vote that
they all take this assessmentand yeah, be invited to ponder
thoughtfully, that would begood. Well, Robert, we've been
talking about some lovelythings. I'm thinking it's time
for the word of the day. Or the
Yonason Goldson (28:07):
day I'm actually debating between two
but I think I'm going to choosemechem and dies.
Margarita Gurri (28:14):
I don't know that one. Oh,
Yonason Goldson (28:16):
I don't think I pronounced it right. Maybe
Margarita Gurri (28:20):
that's okay. I wouldn't know. If we don't know
is it wrong? I mean, reallymagical interesting. The
Yonason Goldson (28:31):
word is epistemology then we can get
into that. mathematize No, wemay have to edit this out. No, I
gotta write maca. Maca. macadamlives. There we go. All right,
we'll get there sooner or later.
Well, what the heck is hasnothing to deal with with
(28:53):
Hawaiian nuts?
Margarita Gurri (28:58):
Well, what a shame because I knew that's the
fork I knew.
Yonason Goldson (29:02):
It means to pave by laying and compacting
successive layers of brokenstone. Oh, you guessed I was
going to talk about this. Not atall. Thank you. But it occurred
to me Mary because you use theexample of the of the rutted
road. And and the two kinds ofroads one one kind of road will
(29:25):
steer us where we want to gowithout us doing much work. But
if we want to change course,it's going to be very difficult.
And we also talked about howapparent failure is often
success or that puts us on thepath to success. So the idea of
(29:46):
taking broken stones, which aregenerally thought of as rubble
or waste or something that hasno use, finding a way to
repurpose those, and to put themin a context where now They
become something that isbeneficial. Just because we see
that situations around us arebroken. Maybe we feel we're
(30:11):
broken at times, because wehaven't succeeded. But out of
that failure, and I often quoteWinston Churchill that the
definition of success is goingfrom failure to failure with no
loss of enthusiasm, to takethose broken pieces and put them
together, we can often createsomething that is going to lead
us forward in ways that mayultimately be more beneficial.
(30:35):
And had things gone smoothly forus in the beginning. Yeah,
Mary Kutheis (30:46):
the, the challenging way is always going
to be more educational.
Especially if you're going tohelp other people come along
that path behind you. If it waseasy, then there won't be any
understanding of the challengesthat other people face.
Yonason Goldson (31:03):
You know, they often say that the best coaches
were the were more mediocreplayers. Because the natural
athletes don't really know howto teach other people to be
successful. Yeah, went out thereand did it. Yeah, who really
struggled. They're the ones wholearned the process and can now
use that to teach others.
Margarita Gurri (31:25):
failures, a good teacher.
Mary Kutheis (31:29):
And the end the idea of using using the broken
rocks, it also kind of goes backto letting nothing go to waste.
Everything has a use, everythinghas a value, if we just look at
it properly.
Margarita Gurri (31:47):
And yet, look at how often speaking of EQ,
look at how often people full ofshame or blame and hide the
mistakes they've made. Theydistort the failures to be
someone else's fault or alltheir fault. And they don't
understand that they're makinguseful rebel, that and they
decide that is not meaningful,so they distort it, then we look
(32:10):
good all those athletes or otherfamous leaders who cheat who
distort the facts, who do allsorts of things. Because somehow
they're not valuing the rubbleof just everyday experience,
it's interesting.
Mary Kutheis (32:30):
kind of goes back to that whole insecurity thing,
when we can be vulnerable andadmit our shortcomings or the
time when we did not live up toour own values. Well, and let's
go
Margarita Gurri (32:45):
beyond that admit to revel in our revel in
our value struggles. I think itgoes back to shame and blame.
Mary Kutheis (32:56):
That's a good point.
Margarita Gurri (32:58):
Let's revel in it. You know, my father used to
ask, what's the best mistake youmake today? At the dinner table
and want to talk about it. Myfather was a Freudian shrink. I
know you could smell it on me.
But we'd ask questions likethat. So what was the best
mistake that President made? Orthe whoever was on TV at the
moment? What do you thinkhappened with everyone in the
(33:21):
world when they saw thatmistake? Questions like that,
like he would think about the360 point of view. And I think
that's what crushed leaders.
Sorry, bad pun, Rabbi. I thinkcrushed leaders often don't look
at what was the advantage of mymistake, and how did it impact
people positively. So they hidethe mistakes or shift the blame
(33:47):
to someone else?
Yonason Goldson (33:48):
You know, I you know, I often look for biblical
references, but the first kingof Israel was King Saul, and he
was not successful. And thesages explained that he had
lived kind of a charmed lifebefore he became king. He was
tall, he was handsome, he wastalented, he people people
adored him and revered him. Andwhen he became king, he was
(34:14):
untested. And so he didn't haveconfidence in himself back again
to our insecurity. And so he waseasily he relied too much on his
advisors and his advisors becameobsessed with their own power.
And they misled him andunfortunately, eventually led
him into into failure. He wassucceeded by King David. King
(34:37):
David had had a very difficultyouth. He had struggled, he had
not been respected, he had toovercome tremendous obstacles.
And when he became king, he waspoised to not take the step up
to that leadership role. Becausehe'd come through so much he was
confident in his own abilitiesand so on. You know, we really
(35:01):
do like, if we take it into intochild racing, the these
terminologies that have becomepopular, the helicopter parent
who hovers or the drill sergeantparent who says we're gonna do
this and do that, and now theytalk about the, the snowplow
parent who just wants to pushall the obstacles out of the
way, we're not doing ourchildren disservice by not
(35:24):
letting them fail and learn fromtheir failures. That's what
leadership really is. It's, it'sempowering others to be the best
they can be.
Mary Kutheis (35:37):
One of the worst things that people seem to think
they can call others is a flipflopper changing their opinion,
because they decided somethingone way 10 years ago, and now
they think differently. And Ithink, Boy, what about a person
who can say, You know what, Igot new information. And now I
think differently. I thinkthat's actually a pretty smart
(36:00):
thing. And also to be willing tosay, I've changed my mind. I
think that says a whole lotabout a person.
Margarita Gurri (36:09):
I think so too.
And especially if they can say,if you have new experiences or
new information, new data, new,whatever, new ponderings that is
not just a flip flop, it maylook like a flip flop. I love
people who are always growing. Ithink it's very exciting. It's
fun to fun to talk about, aboutthe changes, you know, wisdom.
(36:31):
Around the time of COVID. Manypeople were so embarrassed that
they couldn't pay their billsand stuff. But many people say
hey, I was struggling. And thisis what I did. And those are the
people who had, I think moreauthentic leadership. Because we
followed those people. They werescared and they admitted it and
they move forward. So I thinkthat what you're giving is a
(36:53):
model for people to lovethemselves, and ponder
fearlessly.
Mary Kutheis (37:04):
I love the way I love that how that sounds.
Margarita Gurri (37:11):
The rabbi and I are big fans of pondering.
Mary Kutheis (37:14):
I could I could have been a professional ponder.
I think can you are actuallypeople who sit around in coffee
shops and just chat and talkabout things. And I that would
have been a great way to livehardware. We started thinking
Yonason Goldson (37:29):
the same thing.
Margarita Gurri (37:31):
Well, there you go. Or maybe it was good
funding, or maybe a podcastrather. So actually, the rabbi
and I were talking about howmany of us when we get too busy,
stop reading or stop doingwasting time activities. And
that is actually the time whenwe're pondering fearlessly. I
mean, we meander, we have ideas,and when people are fed up with
what they're doing, so whatwould you do? Without any, any
(37:57):
limits? What would you rather bedoing? What do you know? Ask
people the big question withoutlimits. And I think that's kind
of fun. Well, speaking oflimits, are we've coming to a
certain time? So Eric, what,what would be some words of
wisdom that you would share withall the listeners?
Mary Kutheis (38:17):
It's gonna be repeating myself a little bit,
but that central question whenyou when you know it, and before
I committed it to memory, I hadit on sticky notes everywhere.
It is, it's astounding how oftenit is useful in big ways and
small.
Margarita Gurri (38:37):
So what is it again? What is the central
question?
Mary Kutheis (38:41):
Again, central question is, what choice? Can I
make an action? Can I take inthis moment, to create the
greatest net value? I mean, itcan be, am I going to say that
thing? Or am I not gonna saythat thing? Am I going to do
this chore or not do that chore?
Am I gonna get involved in thisassociation or not? I mean,
it's, it's, it's just a way topurposefully think about the
(39:06):
choices that we're making. Andwe have lots of them. And I
think it's very empowering. Andit also takes back our, our
control is strong our freewill,I suppose. You know, it's just
we can decide what we're goingto do.
Margarita Gurri (39:30):
Having a thought does not compel us to
action. There's a concept. Yeah.
How
Mary Kutheis (39:35):
about that? Yeah.
Yonason Goldson (39:36):
That doesn't make us an authentic either. No,
correct.
Margarita Gurri (39:41):
So what is the next what is it you're doing for
fun these days? What are youlooking forward to doing? Well,
Mary Kutheis (39:47):
this might just be as boring as can be, but I love
my work so much. It took me avery long time. I mean, I'm 61
now and it took me a long timeto get to the place where I No,
I'm doing exactly what I was puthere to do. So congratulations.
Thank you. So when I, when I getto work with with clients, when
(40:09):
I get to have conversations likethis, I'm just as happy as can
be. Aside from that, lovelies, Ilove my dogs spending time and I
started a couple of hobbiesbecause I've never been
artistic. And so I've started tolearn calligraphy. And I'm doing
this thing called Zentangle.
Margarita Gurri (40:32):
I don't know what that is, let's pretend I
don't understand it. What is
Mary Kutheis (40:35):
it? Zentangle is essentially this sport. It's
it's artistic meditation, whereyou make designs on a four inch
square of paper, and there's noway to do it wrong. And so, and
you do it in ink, there is nobut there are no mistakes. But
(40:57):
it's it's kind of a way to justimmerse yourself in the little
piece of work that you're doing.
And know that there is no,you're not drawing specific
pictures that are supposed tolook like anything, it's
designs. And so for someone whois fearful of making terrible
art, it's a wonderful art form.
Margarita Gurri (41:20):
And the eyes are open. Pardon? The eyes are
open when you're doingZentangle.
Mary Kutheis (41:25):
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's literally you're using
these little Micron pens. Andyou draw I mean, you just draw
designs. And there's, you know,there's a method behind it.
There's actually a weighted,maybe even Certified Zentangle
Teacher, but it's just a verymeditative way to do art. And
for some, again, for someonewho, oh, I'm not artistic, I can
(41:46):
write, but I've never been, likevisually artistic and it, it
kind of opens it up and says,Well, yeah, I can be,
Margarita Gurri (41:54):
well, how fun for you that you're branching
out and doing these cool things.
That's really neat.
Yonason Goldson (42:00):
Yeah, that's me about athletes, friends,
baseball players. Many of themplay golf. And they do it
specifically because golf usesdifferent muscles, and different
coordination than baseball. Andso why should they be doing
something like that, because youhave to develop the whole
(42:22):
person. And so we always sayplay to your strengths, do the
things you're good at. And thatmay be true most of the time.
But to not completely neglectthose other parts of ourselves.
Because we need, we need all ofour brains, we all have our
bodies, we need to be integratedand holistic in what we do and
(42:43):
giving ourselves outlets. Thatmay seem a little frivolous, may
in fact, be something that'sserving us much more later in
the work that is our mostmeaningful work. Rather,
Margarita Gurri (42:57):
what is your creative outlet these days?
Yonason Goldson (43:03):
My creative outlet? That's a good question.
I should work on that.
Margarita Gurri (43:08):
You can ponder I'll do that. Yeah, I know
you've been working awfullyhard. It's funny when we're on a
on a path. Sometimes we get soinvolved in it that and maybe
that's okay to do it that youjust focus on something for a
(43:28):
while. I don't think I don'tthink we have to balance every
moment. Nor every week. I thinkit's okay to dive into stuff.
And then take a break. I reallydon't think we have to have you
know, total balance all thetime.
Yonason Goldson (43:44):
Yeah, I think for me, it's really exercise. I
work out five or six days aweek. And I can't miss it. It's
it's so important to my health,not my physical health. I mean
that too, but my mental healthto be able to have that time
when I'm just by my side, I godownstairs in my basement I have
(44:06):
some rudimentary equipment andjust to have that time by myself
focusing on working up a sweatgetting my muscles working it's
so it
Margarita Gurri (44:17):
clears the mind to doesn't you know for like all
of us like calligraphy. I mean,that's certainly a great way to
clear the mind.
Mary Kutheis (44:24):
What would you think if someone said their
habit hobby was sitting on theirporch swing?
Margarita Gurri (44:31):
That's a fine hobby is because they're
outside. They're seeing peopleand animals. I mean, I have my
cup of coffee every morning withone of my daughters, wherever
I'm visiting. And we we call iteither porch time or deck time
wherever we are. And we have acup of coffee and we talk or we
don't and it's lovely. I lovethat anchors my for me the mid
(44:56):
mornings I wake up super early,but it anchors my mid morning
you know like No
Yonason Goldson (45:01):
matter where you live in St. Louis, where I
do and the amount of days we canactually sit on the porch, with
the minimal weather are prettylimited. So, opportunities
arrive.
Margarita Gurri (45:14):
Again, I think that even if it's really cold,
it's like being camping and youjust bundle up and go outside, I
think it's very nice. I thinkthat there's a lot of pressure
to look productive. And so a lotof people lose productivity by
working too hard. And I think wehave to spend time wasting time
and playing and be creative, anddoing things that don't look
(45:37):
productive. I think it helps usbe more productive.
Mary Kutheis (45:42):
In my, in my book I talked about I'm not a fan of
productivity. I mean, it'sagain, one of the reasons is
because people will people don'tever think of a productive nap.
Margarita Gurri (45:54):
Well, but they can be very productive. But if
we have you one of your famousmind shifts, they do. Yeah, I
think that depends on how wedefine productivity. But I think
productivity is like mydefinition of being a grown up.
People who do what they need todo in a timely manner. So you
can play play play, that, forme, productivity is the same as
efficiency, you've got thesystems that people the
(46:16):
resources, the mindset thatprocesses and lay and then you
work at it, and then you'd like.
And I think we have to giveourselves up. Playtime is kind
of it's fascinating.
Mary Kutheis (46:25):
I agree that productivity is part of the
process, not the end goal.
Margarita Gurri (46:30):
Yeah, I think so. So that you can have time to
play. And, you know, with COVID,the rabbi and I started a bunch
of new projects separately andtogether. And it's been
interesting, it's been fun, butit's a lot of work. So we're
both learning how to have morefun again. And it's been I mean,
(46:50):
we have fun, both of us nomatter what we do, but more on
purpose fun, you know, off task,one that I think has been very
helpful to our thinking so well,you've been really generous with
your time and we reallyappreciate your input. I could
only see that as your successfulgrow more and more. What is the
(47:11):
best way to reach you?
Mary Kutheis (47:15):
Probably via my website, which is pretty easy.
It's m c k coaching.com. And aMary in front of that, Mary at
is my email. So definitely, youcan contact me through my
website, and I happy to chatwith anybody about this kind of
stuff could talk all day.
Margarita Gurri (47:36):
And they can certainly explore your you know,
the assessment, or sure they arewith their values and all so
that would be good. Yeah. Well,Rabbi, do you have any last
word, sir?
Yonason Goldson (47:48):
No, I think we've left in a good place.
Margarita Gurri (47:51):
I think so too.
Well, we thank everyone forbeing on this episode of The
rabbi in the shrink with Marycouth. Nice learning about
thinking and it's important toattach it to our values, and
they can set you free. We'll seeyou on another episode of The
rabbi in a shrink be well andhave fun.
Unknown (48:13):
Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink
every day ethics unscripted, twobook Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita
Drewery, or Rabbi Jonas andGoldson as speakers or advisors
for your organization, contactthem at the rabbi and the
shrink.com. This has been adoctor Red Shoe production
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