November 10, 2022 • 23 mins
Why is anger like idolatry?
If anger doesn't translate into behavior, is it still a problem?
Can there ever be benefits to outrage?
These and other highly relevant questions are addressed when The Rabbi and the Shrink investigate the challenge of anger.
Here are a few highlights:
The world was not created to conform with our desires.
We have a responsibility to the world; the world is not responsible to us.
Shouldn't we respond to irresponsible behavior that puts others in danger with anger?
If we can channel anger in a positive direction it can be a force for good.
Anger often is an expression of our own ego.
Are we justified in taking it personally when others show no interest in setting the ethical bar where we've set it for ourselves?
Sister Rita's strategy: assuming responsibility for others.
Arrogance is the death of compassion.
Sometimes, being our authentic selves is not in anyone's best interest.
Civility is the filter through which we allow our authentic selves engage the world.
We're all wonderful; we're all awful. They're both true.
The lesson of the donkey, the rooster, and the lantern.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margarita Gurri (00:04):
Welcome to another episode of The Rabbi and
The Shrink. This is Dr.
Margarita Guri, your shrink. Andmy favorite rabbi,
Yonason Goldson (00:10):
Yonason Goldson
Margarita Gurri (00:12):
the two of us thought we'd put our heads
together and talk about anger.
Many of the guests we've had onour podcast address issues
related to anger, and ourreaction to it. So let's talk
about it. So Rabbi, let's startwith you. Why is anger such a
big deal in the world of ethics?
What's it got to do withanything anyway? Well, of
(00:35):
course,
Yonason Goldson (00:35):
my reference point is always my tradition.
And the sages make a veryinteresting observation. They
say that anger is like idolatry.
Because why don't we get upset?
Things are not the way we thinkthey should be. So if we believe
(00:56):
in a higher power, then thatmeans either the higher power
isn't in control. The higherpower doesn't know what he's
doing. Or the higher power isoff duty. Really isn't isn't
(01:17):
there at all. So even if we arenot coming from a spiritual
perspective, there is a sensethat the world was not created
to accommodate my immediatedesires. How rude. Yes, isn't it
convenient? Why doesn't theworld just get us at the end?
(01:38):
Yeah. Someone said zealot issomebody who's doing what God
would want him to do if Godunderstood what was really going
on.
Margarita Gurri (01:45):
That's very funny. Well, it
Yonason Goldson (01:47):
is. But it tells us so much about
ourselves. Because the momentlife does not conform to our
wishes and our desires, we getfrustrated, we get resentful, we
get bitter, we get angry. Andethics means that we recognize
that we have a responsibility tothe world. Not that the world
(02:10):
has a responsibility to us. Isthere a psychology behind that
that you can share with us?
Yeah,
Margarita Gurri (02:19):
so let's talk about anger. First off, what
Unknown (02:22):
is anger?
Margarita Gurri (02:24):
When I was reading, you recommended a book
to me when I asked you about itby Rabbi Avraham, yuckiness. Am
I saying his name, right? Soundsright. All right. And the book
is Arcos
Yonason Goldson (02:36):
said he can?
Yeah, yeah. Is that actually theauthor of the work? He is the
presenter?
Margarita Gurri (02:44):
Oh, he's the presenter of the stuff. And it's
a treasure for
Yonason Goldson (02:47):
ancient work that provided nonnamous. Otter
author. Yeah.
Margarita Gurri (02:51):
All right. So he speaks about what the sages
have said. And, and one of thethings he says is that angle
anger is an evil trait. Well,that's a philosophy that many
people have that it's a diseaseof the soul. So let's talk about
what anger is and what it isn't.
So anger is a feeling thatdoesn't hurt anybody, or does
it? So that's the first thing.
(03:13):
What is anger? If anger doesn'tbecome a behavior, is it still
problematic? And where doesanger come from? Well, we know
that that's actually acomplicated question, because
anger comes from some brainstates. So if we have too much
adrenaline, if we have ahormone, hogwash, that that
(03:34):
flows over us, we can get angry,if we have too much epinephrine.
If we're not sleeping, well, ifwe have some brain injuries,
suddenly, then anger is calledto the party, and then anger
please come forward. So what isanger? And is it always under
our control? So I'm going to sayfor the sake of ethics, and your
view on accountability? Let'sassume that from whatever source
(03:59):
the anger comes from, there aretwo parts of anger we need to
address versus versus theexperience of it. What do we do
with the feeling whether we'reaware of it or not? And the
second is, what do we do with abehavior? So I'm going to pose
that both can be harmful.
feelings and thoughts can bejust as harmful as behavior. But
(04:20):
I don't think they're evil. So Iknow that you sages, and I'm
going to include you as a modernday sage you sages love to do to
make dramatic statements thatanger is an evil trait. Well,
maybe it's not an evil traitjust by itself. Maybe it can be.
But maybe anger is aninvitation. So I think anger is
(04:42):
the gift that keeps on giving.
from whatever source, it invitesus to look at ourselves to maybe
ask for guidance and supportfrom other cells or from God or
Hashem. And also I think it's,it educates us about how we're
(05:03):
doing. So we're really angry.
It's an opportunity not just toput ourselves down. But to take
a moment. We also know that thebrain where, you know, there's
the amygdala and hypothalamusdifferent parts of the brain
that get energized withdifferent memories, experiences,
and whatever. And part of thatis, we know that it takes time
(05:26):
sometimes to calm down. Sowhether it's something in the
amygdala where you have toscratch, what's the emotional
center where you're not beinglogical, whatever it is, we know
that it's not like a helicopter,you zoom in and zoom out and get
out of anger. It's more like ajumbo jet. It takes time to get
there sometimes and certainlytime to land from it. So what
are your thoughts about thepractical aspects of, of anger?
Yonason Goldson (05:53):
Well, the book that you cited is the reason I
referred you to it. It's one ofmy favorite works on character
development.
Margarita Gurri (06:00):
I love it. Yes.
Yonason Goldson (06:02):
Here's what he says in the introduction there
is that there are no good or badcharacter traits. Yes, traits or
character traits are tools Iagree with. And if we think of
anger, or let's say perhaps thepredisposition predisposition
towards anger as a trait ratherthan a state of being, then it
(06:22):
does have its uses. There aretimes when it is proper to feel
outrage. I just saw online todaypodcaster, Mark MeTree posted a
report that was issued by some,I don't know, bored government,
(06:44):
something or other, listing thefoods that were the best to eat
the most healthy to eat. And thethird one on the list was
something like frosted MiniWheats are one of those cereals
that you don't want your kids.
Margarita Gurri (06:59):
I love them.
They're terrible, but they're sowonderful. And,
Yonason Goldson (07:03):
and he was outraged. And I think rightly
so. That here is some officialboard, giving their sanction to
food that anyone can figure outis not good for you. It's it's a
perversion, of medicine, ofscience of research. And it's
(07:24):
largely irresponsible. And whenwe see irresponsible behavior
that endangers others, we shouldget them out. We shouldn't be
upset.
Margarita Gurri (07:33):
Well, and that's the brain being call to
action for the sake of survivaland safety. Yeah,
Yonason Goldson (07:38):
then the question is, what do we do with
it? If we can shell it in aproductive way, then in a sense,
we're metabolizing, that anger,and we are using it to motivate
us to come up with an approachthat's not going to be
destructive, but it's going tobe productive and constructive.
(07:59):
If we don't find an outlet,that's when it gets dangerous
and unhealthy.
Margarita Gurri (08:05):
So I'm glad you said if we can channel it,
because unless you have aserious brain injury that's
permanent, that might interferewith your regulation of those
emotions, and inhibition ofcertain responses to emotions
and stimuli. We can indeed learnhow to channel and leverage the
power of anger, which is why Ithink it's the gift that keeps
(08:26):
giving it can be very motivatingto be angry. And you were
talking about then a righteousanger. The problem is, it's so
much of our angers, egoinvolved. I'll never forget one
of my first weeks as an adultdriving in Miami, I grew up in
Miami area, and I'm drivingalong and I'm going to speed
limit because you know, I'm akid right? Just got my license
(08:48):
16 years old, and 9000 lanehighway I'm just exaggerating a
bit, but it's a littleoverwhelming and I'm going to do
that. And so the people behindme are beeping their horns
giving me the Miami salute, youknow, special finger and I'm,
I'm later on so mad and uh, myinstinct is a slam on my brakes
(09:09):
or give it back to them orwhatever. And then I started to
laugh at myself. I'm thinkingabout my favorite nun, Sister
Rita balm, who said Margarita?
Why are you so important? Thatsomehow it is your fault just
because someone says it is. AndI had to laugh that you know you
do what you think is best andlet them solve their own
(09:29):
problems. And I'll never forgetthat that I was mad because they
should behave better and why arethey treating me so unfairly?
But it had nothing to do withthat it was their problem not
mine. I'm gonna go ahead andkeep doing my thing. We do get
so mad when someone's mad at uswhich is kind of funny.
Yonason Goldson (09:48):
There's an interesting angle here that I
know I suffer from and and maybeI can get on the couch and you
can help me with this problem.
Margarita Gurri (09:55):
I'm on board to the red Big Red Couch.
Yonason Goldson (09:58):
You know when we Hold her says ethical people,
we should try to hold her stancewhile we should hold ourselves
to to higher standards, andaspire to continuously move that
bar upward. Which doesn't meanwe're gonna we're gonna write
all the time. But it means weget it right all the time. We're
aspiring to that. And when wesee people around us, who don't
(10:22):
appear to be setting the baranywhere near what the US seems
reasonable. I take itpersonally. Why am I trying to
so hard to be a better person,when people around me have no
interest in at all that ismaking? That's an assault on me.
(10:45):
And my value of selfimprovement? And I take it
personally. Now, of course, it'ssilly. I know that the distance
from the head to the hardest isthe longest distance in the
world.
Margarita Gurri (10:59):
Until the brain, brain, right,
Yonason Goldson (11:02):
but so you know, you want what you just
said is we all need our sisterRita. We all need our sister
reader to remind us, oraldoesn't revolve around me.
Margarita Gurri (11:15):
Yeah, I know, she saved my life on more than
one occasion. I, you know, Icame as a refugee and English
was new. And I, I would have bigreactions to things at times.
And my, you know, I would justfeel so sad about why are people
doing what they're doing. And,and she told me once the
(11:37):
following as well, that shesaid, what she sometimes
recommends we do is thank youfor thinking this is all my
fault. Yes, I am indeedpowerful. It is all my fault,
because I have all the power inthe world. And not to say it
sarcastically but say it kindof, you know, in a gracious way,
and I invite you to blame me forthis, you know, that kind of
(11:59):
stuff. And the way she would doit, you would cancel out and you
feel like a fool. But withoutbeing made fun of and you'd go
here if I missed the boat onthat. So I mean, we do take it
so personally. So then, is angeralways bad? No. And yet, it's
confusing the way people talkabout even this book that you
recommend, which I'm loving, I'mgrateful for the recommendation.
(12:22):
Anger is an evil trait. I mean,it's such a provocative
statement. And I don't thinkit's an evil trait I think
giving into it is I think takingresponsibility for nothing is
not letting people be human andexpecting them to be perfect. Or
the rudeness of them notagreeing with us all the time. I
(12:45):
mean, how rude, especially whenwe're right. And we're always
right. And, you know, one thingsthat I love about about talking
with you is that you and I oftendisagree. And I like the way we
disagree. So okay, why did youget your wrong opinion. And, you
know, we don't say it that way,because we're mature and pie
with each other, but it's inthere. So it helped me
understand your opinion, I'llunderstand mine. And it always
(13:07):
informs my thinking and mybehavior. I mean, this is the
that's
Yonason Goldson (13:11):
the key to wisdom is to try to understand
why does somebody disagree withme,
Margarita Gurri (13:15):
right? And listen, to understand is just
such a hard thing to do.
Yonason Goldson (13:19):
And then maybe, you know, maybe we can, we can
see how what we really have aretwo different angles on the
truth. And that we don't reallyhave to disagree. We just are
just coming out from differentdirections. But to go to your
point on anger being an eventrade, in my mind is says that
the most evil of all charactertraits is arrogance. And he says
(13:41):
that in general, one should goto go to one extreme, go to the
other extreme and find abalancing point in between but
he says when it comes toarrogance, he says there there
is no positive aspect ofarrogance. And I
Margarita Gurri (13:58):
agree because I think arrogance is the death of
compassion. Okay,
Yonason Goldson (14:03):
but to finish the thought that I think that
our anger is often expression,you've said this, when you said
ego, right? What is ego isarrogance, right? That That
sense of self importance, thatsense of superiority. And my
anger is an expression that myfeelings of self importance are
(14:26):
coming in conflict with thereality that I'm not really as
important as I think I and inthat sense, it is a
manifestation of the most evilof traits, as my mind is
reporting.
Margarita Gurri (14:40):
Well, I would agree with my mind at ease. I
think that makes a lot.
Yonason Goldson (14:44):
It's a good default to agree with my
monitors.
Margarita Gurri (14:47):
Yeah, I used to consult with a school called my
mom or the sign I know aboutthat wise man. This is good
Catholic girls learning a thingor two along the way. So the
issue of anger Many peoplebelieve that it is wise and
righteous, to have a feeling.
And then be honest, authentic,and express it. Well, my dad who
(15:10):
was a Freudian shrink, and afunny guy would say it is
authentic to pick your nose atthe table and eat it. But it's
not polite, and it achievesnothing. And so he used to eat,
he would make funny things thatwere child friendly. And so I
think that sometimes being ourauthentic self, is not the goal.
(15:30):
I think it's better instead toseek civility, seek compassion,
seek to listen to understand,which is one of the things you
and I have been working on quitea bit with our podcast is to
encourage civility and discoursewith the purpose of
(15:52):
understanding
Yonason Goldson (15:55):
say that civility is the filter through
which we allow our authenticselves to I like that. I just
came up with that you see thatagain,
Margarita Gurri (16:06):
I'm gonna take that up civility
Yonason Goldson (16:09):
forget about forgot it already. So those
civility is the filter throughwhich we allow our authentic
selves to engage the world. Youreminded me of that when I was
in seminary, there was a fellowthere from New York. And I said
to him, as you know what I likeabout you, you say everything, I
think that's funny. And youknow, sometimes when you know,
(16:35):
it's better not to saysomething, and the person next
to you. Just lets it out. Youfeel oh, that was I'm so glad
somebody said that. But thetruth is, we really do have to
watch ourselves. And, and notsaying I'm being being authentic
doesn't mean you say everythingyou think
Margarita Gurri (16:53):
absolutely. And as my father would say to me
Margarita, it would have beenbetter to study the fuzz on your
knee. And we know that all ofthe the books on brain science
and managing our temper andexperiences that conflict with
others say that sometimes weneed that 1020 30 however many
minutes for the hot wash ofhormones, that our fight flight.
(17:20):
Trigger is inviting us to go andsave the world when we don't
always know in our brains wereseduced with a real threat. And
a virtual threat, a threat ofthe feeling of the heart. So
what I always tell everyone isto repeat after me, I'm
wonderful. And then it's alwaysfun to have the audience say I'm
wonderful. And then I say I'mawful. And they say I'm awful.
(17:44):
And now I say get over it.
They're both true. And thatspeaks to the heart of your your
whole thing about arrogance. Weare all wonderful, we're all
awful. And even like Will Smith,who I love at the was it at the
Oscars, forgot that lesson hegot into being self important.
And the stoics would have saidto him, that he forgot that
(18:05):
there's no difference between agood experience and a bad
experience. Good. Good luck, andbad luck is just all something
that happens, or modify the loveyour fate, and make the most of
what is happening. He tookhimself too seriously. And he
took over the Oscars with hisbig bad temper, which we all
have big bad tempers. So wecan't blame him for having a
(18:27):
temper. And yet we cannot beproud of the choice he made. If
we were there, we would have notbeen proud of the choice we made
to disrupt something, not onlyonce, but three times you
disrupted it. So none of us areimportant enough to let our
temper be the star of the show.
Yonason Goldson (18:48):
Yeah, that's probably a good place to wrap it
up that we we may feel anger.
The question is what do we donext. And sometimes that means
we recognize we have toextricate, extricate ourselves
from the situation because I'mnot going to be able to monitor
myself properly right now. Butthe larger the larger approach
(19:14):
is to adopt a worldview, wherewe recognize that the world is
not here to accommodate us. Muchbetter to think of ourselves as
here to find our way of fittinginto the world.
Margarita Gurri (19:32):
And to wrap ourselves around with the
goodness remember gratitude ofgood people in your life. Focus
on goodness, don't spend toomuch time watching the news and
reading up on in justices andbad things. I think that we can,
we can load our brain and ourfeelings with goodness. And I
(19:52):
think that's one of thesolutions. And when in doubt as
my mother who says if you'retaking yourself too seriously,
go go do a good deed for someoneNo, it's alright. Okay Mama, I
will do a good deed. So needlessto say we used to polish our
neighbours shoes and sweep theirPorsches, porches and all that,
because we had manyopportunities to try and go
(20:14):
beyond our anger and tempers andIll chosen actions and words.
You probably
Yonason Goldson (20:19):
might have a story I know you'll love my
stories. I do love your stories.
It's not mine. It's a story fromJudaism. So in the Talmud, and I
think recently, we madereference to Rebbi. Akiva. Yes.
So this is another story aboutRebbi. Akiva. He was traveling
and it came to a town. And heasked for a place for the night
and they told him, sorry, wecan't accommodate you. We have
no place for you. And you can'tyou can't loiter, you can't stay
(20:42):
in the town, you gotta go. So hewent off on the road, and he
looked around, and he found aclearing in the woods. And he
settled down for the night. Andhe said, he said a phrase that
he often said, he said thateverything the Almighty does, he
does for the best. And hesettled down for the night. And
(21:02):
then he had his his, his donkey,and you had a you had a rooster.
That was a that was the alarmclock of old. And he had a
lantern. And he settled down forthe night. And suddenly, there's
a noise and a Wildcat came outof the woods and, and attacked
the donkey and killed it. Andwhile he was distracted by that,
(21:24):
a weasel key out in the woodsand killed the rooster, ah, and
as he just taking stock of thatthe wind kicked up and blow out
the lantern. So there he is nowin the dark in the woods by
himself, and he says everythingthe Almighty does he does for
the best. Well, during thenight, he heard some horrible
(21:47):
sounds, couldn't make it soundfight violence was going on. And
in the morning, he discoveredthat the town had been attacked
by marauders. And that the townhad been burned down and
everybody there and he had beenkilled or taken, taken hostage.
And had he been staying in thetown which he wanted. He would
have been, he would have been avictim too. And have he kept his
(22:10):
head, his dog, keep it aroundthe donkey could have braid and
given him away, the chickencould have crawled and given him
away the land and would haveshown likely would have found
him the ones. It says it's as Isaid, everything the Almighty
does he does for the best, allof the things that happen that
he thought were terrible. Turnedout to save him from a terrible
(22:31):
fate. And that when we getangry, talked about feeling
foolish. Often that as we feelmost foolish is when we see
sooner or later, that whathappened was actually what was
best for us. We just didn'trealize it at the time.
Margarita Gurri (22:49):
That is so true. whether someone has to
move their house because of aflood which happens to a lot of
people or they get fired from ajob or whatever. I mean, I think
this the more faculty, you know,love the faith, and ask, you
know, ask what, what is it? Youknow, again, back to your
sister, Rita balm. What is Godtrying to teach you? And what is
(23:15):
he asking you to teach others orto learn enough to teach others
so that's good. Well, I think wetalked about the overview of, of
anger. And that's all we have tosay about that for now.
Excellent. Thank you. We'll seeyou on another. Thank you,
Rabbi. We'll see you on anotherepisode of The rabbi and the
shrink. Thank you for joiningus.
Welcome to another episode of The Rabbi and
The Shrink. This is Dr.
Margarita Guri, your shrink. Andmy favorite rabbi,
Yonason Goldson (00:10):
Yonason Goldson
Margarita Gurri (00:12):
the two of us thought we'd put our heads
together and talk about anger.
Many of the guests we've had onour podcast address issues
related to anger, and ourreaction to it. So let's talk
about it. So Rabbi, let's startwith you. Why is anger such a
big deal in the world of ethics?
What's it got to do withanything anyway? Well, of
(00:35):
course,
Yonason Goldson (00:35):
my reference point is always my tradition.
And the sages make a veryinteresting observation. They
say that anger is like idolatry.
Because why don't we get upset?
Things are not the way we thinkthey should be. So if we believe
(00:56):
in a higher power, then thatmeans either the higher power
isn't in control. The higherpower doesn't know what he's
doing. Or the higher power isoff duty. Really isn't isn't
(01:17):
there at all. So even if we arenot coming from a spiritual
perspective, there is a sensethat the world was not created
to accommodate my immediatedesires. How rude. Yes, isn't it
convenient? Why doesn't theworld just get us at the end?
(01:38):
Yeah. Someone said zealot issomebody who's doing what God
would want him to do if Godunderstood what was really going
on.
Margarita Gurri (01:45):
That's very funny. Well, it
Yonason Goldson (01:47):
is. But it tells us so much about
ourselves. Because the momentlife does not conform to our
wishes and our desires, we getfrustrated, we get resentful, we
get bitter, we get angry. Andethics means that we recognize
that we have a responsibility tothe world. Not that the world
(02:10):
has a responsibility to us. Isthere a psychology behind that
that you can share with us?
Yeah,
Margarita Gurri (02:19):
so let's talk about anger. First off, what
Unknown (02:22):
is anger?
Margarita Gurri (02:24):
When I was reading, you recommended a book
to me when I asked you about itby Rabbi Avraham, yuckiness. Am
I saying his name, right? Soundsright. All right. And the book
is Arcos
Yonason Goldson (02:36):
said he can?
Yeah, yeah. Is that actually theauthor of the work? He is the
presenter?
Margarita Gurri (02:44):
Oh, he's the presenter of the stuff. And it's
a treasure for
Yonason Goldson (02:47):
ancient work that provided nonnamous. Otter
author. Yeah.
Margarita Gurri (02:51):
All right. So he speaks about what the sages
have said. And, and one of thethings he says is that angle
anger is an evil trait. Well,that's a philosophy that many
people have that it's a diseaseof the soul. So let's talk about
what anger is and what it isn't.
So anger is a feeling thatdoesn't hurt anybody, or does
it? So that's the first thing.
(03:13):
What is anger? If anger doesn'tbecome a behavior, is it still
problematic? And where doesanger come from? Well, we know
that that's actually acomplicated question, because
anger comes from some brainstates. So if we have too much
adrenaline, if we have ahormone, hogwash, that that
(03:34):
flows over us, we can get angry,if we have too much epinephrine.
If we're not sleeping, well, ifwe have some brain injuries,
suddenly, then anger is calledto the party, and then anger
please come forward. So what isanger? And is it always under
our control? So I'm going to sayfor the sake of ethics, and your
view on accountability? Let'sassume that from whatever source
(03:59):
the anger comes from, there aretwo parts of anger we need to
address versus versus theexperience of it. What do we do
with the feeling whether we'reaware of it or not? And the
second is, what do we do with abehavior? So I'm going to pose
that both can be harmful.
feelings and thoughts can bejust as harmful as behavior. But
(04:20):
I don't think they're evil. So Iknow that you sages, and I'm
going to include you as a modernday sage you sages love to do to
make dramatic statements thatanger is an evil trait. Well,
maybe it's not an evil traitjust by itself. Maybe it can be.
But maybe anger is aninvitation. So I think anger is
(04:42):
the gift that keeps on giving.
from whatever source, it invitesus to look at ourselves to maybe
ask for guidance and supportfrom other cells or from God or
Hashem. And also I think it's,it educates us about how we're
(05:03):
doing. So we're really angry.
It's an opportunity not just toput ourselves down. But to take
a moment. We also know that thebrain where, you know, there's
the amygdala and hypothalamusdifferent parts of the brain
that get energized withdifferent memories, experiences,
and whatever. And part of thatis, we know that it takes time
(05:26):
sometimes to calm down. Sowhether it's something in the
amygdala where you have toscratch, what's the emotional
center where you're not beinglogical, whatever it is, we know
that it's not like a helicopter,you zoom in and zoom out and get
out of anger. It's more like ajumbo jet. It takes time to get
there sometimes and certainlytime to land from it. So what
are your thoughts about thepractical aspects of, of anger?
Yonason Goldson (05:53):
Well, the book that you cited is the reason I
referred you to it. It's one ofmy favorite works on character
development.
Margarita Gurri (06:00):
I love it. Yes.
Yonason Goldson (06:02):
Here's what he says in the introduction there
is that there are no good or badcharacter traits. Yes, traits or
character traits are tools Iagree with. And if we think of
anger, or let's say perhaps thepredisposition predisposition
towards anger as a trait ratherthan a state of being, then it
(06:22):
does have its uses. There aretimes when it is proper to feel
outrage. I just saw online todaypodcaster, Mark MeTree posted a
report that was issued by some,I don't know, bored government,
(06:44):
something or other, listing thefoods that were the best to eat
the most healthy to eat. And thethird one on the list was
something like frosted MiniWheats are one of those cereals
that you don't want your kids.
Margarita Gurri (06:59):
I love them.
They're terrible, but they're sowonderful. And,
Yonason Goldson (07:03):
and he was outraged. And I think rightly
so. That here is some officialboard, giving their sanction to
food that anyone can figure outis not good for you. It's it's a
perversion, of medicine, ofscience of research. And it's
(07:24):
largely irresponsible. And whenwe see irresponsible behavior
that endangers others, we shouldget them out. We shouldn't be
upset.
Margarita Gurri (07:33):
Well, and that's the brain being call to
action for the sake of survivaland safety. Yeah,
Yonason Goldson (07:38):
then the question is, what do we do with
it? If we can shell it in aproductive way, then in a sense,
we're metabolizing, that anger,and we are using it to motivate
us to come up with an approachthat's not going to be
destructive, but it's going tobe productive and constructive.
(07:59):
If we don't find an outlet,that's when it gets dangerous
and unhealthy.
Margarita Gurri (08:05):
So I'm glad you said if we can channel it,
because unless you have aserious brain injury that's
permanent, that might interferewith your regulation of those
emotions, and inhibition ofcertain responses to emotions
and stimuli. We can indeed learnhow to channel and leverage the
power of anger, which is why Ithink it's the gift that keeps
(08:26):
giving it can be very motivatingto be angry. And you were
talking about then a righteousanger. The problem is, it's so
much of our angers, egoinvolved. I'll never forget one
of my first weeks as an adultdriving in Miami, I grew up in
Miami area, and I'm drivingalong and I'm going to speed
limit because you know, I'm akid right? Just got my license
(08:48):
16 years old, and 9000 lanehighway I'm just exaggerating a
bit, but it's a littleoverwhelming and I'm going to do
that. And so the people behindme are beeping their horns
giving me the Miami salute, youknow, special finger and I'm,
I'm later on so mad and uh, myinstinct is a slam on my brakes
(09:09):
or give it back to them orwhatever. And then I started to
laugh at myself. I'm thinkingabout my favorite nun, Sister
Rita balm, who said Margarita?
Why are you so important? Thatsomehow it is your fault just
because someone says it is. AndI had to laugh that you know you
do what you think is best andlet them solve their own
(09:29):
problems. And I'll never forgetthat that I was mad because they
should behave better and why arethey treating me so unfairly?
But it had nothing to do withthat it was their problem not
mine. I'm gonna go ahead andkeep doing my thing. We do get
so mad when someone's mad at uswhich is kind of funny.
Yonason Goldson (09:48):
There's an interesting angle here that I
know I suffer from and and maybeI can get on the couch and you
can help me with this problem.
Margarita Gurri (09:55):
I'm on board to the red Big Red Couch.
Yonason Goldson (09:58):
You know when we Hold her says ethical people,
we should try to hold her stancewhile we should hold ourselves
to to higher standards, andaspire to continuously move that
bar upward. Which doesn't meanwe're gonna we're gonna write
all the time. But it means weget it right all the time. We're
aspiring to that. And when wesee people around us, who don't
(10:22):
appear to be setting the baranywhere near what the US seems
reasonable. I take itpersonally. Why am I trying to
so hard to be a better person,when people around me have no
interest in at all that ismaking? That's an assault on me.
(10:45):
And my value of selfimprovement? And I take it
personally. Now, of course, it'ssilly. I know that the distance
from the head to the hardest isthe longest distance in the
world.
Margarita Gurri (10:59):
Until the brain, brain, right,
Yonason Goldson (11:02):
but so you know, you want what you just
said is we all need our sisterRita. We all need our sister
reader to remind us, oraldoesn't revolve around me.
Margarita Gurri (11:15):
Yeah, I know, she saved my life on more than
one occasion. I, you know, Icame as a refugee and English
was new. And I, I would have bigreactions to things at times.
And my, you know, I would justfeel so sad about why are people
doing what they're doing. And,and she told me once the
(11:37):
following as well, that shesaid, what she sometimes
recommends we do is thank youfor thinking this is all my
fault. Yes, I am indeedpowerful. It is all my fault,
because I have all the power inthe world. And not to say it
sarcastically but say it kindof, you know, in a gracious way,
and I invite you to blame me forthis, you know, that kind of
(11:59):
stuff. And the way she would doit, you would cancel out and you
feel like a fool. But withoutbeing made fun of and you'd go
here if I missed the boat onthat. So I mean, we do take it
so personally. So then, is angeralways bad? No. And yet, it's
confusing the way people talkabout even this book that you
recommend, which I'm loving, I'mgrateful for the recommendation.
(12:22):
Anger is an evil trait. I mean,it's such a provocative
statement. And I don't thinkit's an evil trait I think
giving into it is I think takingresponsibility for nothing is
not letting people be human andexpecting them to be perfect. Or
the rudeness of them notagreeing with us all the time. I
(12:45):
mean, how rude, especially whenwe're right. And we're always
right. And, you know, one thingsthat I love about about talking
with you is that you and I oftendisagree. And I like the way we
disagree. So okay, why did youget your wrong opinion. And, you
know, we don't say it that way,because we're mature and pie
with each other, but it's inthere. So it helped me
understand your opinion, I'llunderstand mine. And it always
(13:07):
informs my thinking and mybehavior. I mean, this is the
that's
Yonason Goldson (13:11):
the key to wisdom is to try to understand
why does somebody disagree withme,
Margarita Gurri (13:15):
right? And listen, to understand is just
such a hard thing to do.
Yonason Goldson (13:19):
And then maybe, you know, maybe we can, we can
see how what we really have aretwo different angles on the
truth. And that we don't reallyhave to disagree. We just are
just coming out from differentdirections. But to go to your
point on anger being an eventrade, in my mind is says that
the most evil of all charactertraits is arrogance. And he says
(13:41):
that in general, one should goto go to one extreme, go to the
other extreme and find abalancing point in between but
he says when it comes toarrogance, he says there there
is no positive aspect ofarrogance. And I
Margarita Gurri (13:58):
agree because I think arrogance is the death of
compassion. Okay,
Yonason Goldson (14:03):
but to finish the thought that I think that
our anger is often expression,you've said this, when you said
ego, right? What is ego isarrogance, right? That That
sense of self importance, thatsense of superiority. And my
anger is an expression that myfeelings of self importance are
(14:26):
coming in conflict with thereality that I'm not really as
important as I think I and inthat sense, it is a
manifestation of the most evilof traits, as my mind is
reporting.
Margarita Gurri (14:40):
Well, I would agree with my mind at ease. I
think that makes a lot.
Yonason Goldson (14:44):
It's a good default to agree with my
monitors.
Margarita Gurri (14:47):
Yeah, I used to consult with a school called my
mom or the sign I know aboutthat wise man. This is good
Catholic girls learning a thingor two along the way. So the
issue of anger Many peoplebelieve that it is wise and
righteous, to have a feeling.
And then be honest, authentic,and express it. Well, my dad who
(15:10):
was a Freudian shrink, and afunny guy would say it is
authentic to pick your nose atthe table and eat it. But it's
not polite, and it achievesnothing. And so he used to eat,
he would make funny things thatwere child friendly. And so I
think that sometimes being ourauthentic self, is not the goal.
(15:30):
I think it's better instead toseek civility, seek compassion,
seek to listen to understand,which is one of the things you
and I have been working on quitea bit with our podcast is to
encourage civility and discoursewith the purpose of
(15:52):
understanding
Yonason Goldson (15:55):
say that civility is the filter through
which we allow our authenticselves to I like that. I just
came up with that you see thatagain,
Margarita Gurri (16:06):
I'm gonna take that up civility
Yonason Goldson (16:09):
forget about forgot it already. So those
civility is the filter throughwhich we allow our authentic
selves to engage the world. Youreminded me of that when I was
in seminary, there was a fellowthere from New York. And I said
to him, as you know what I likeabout you, you say everything, I
think that's funny. And youknow, sometimes when you know,
(16:35):
it's better not to saysomething, and the person next
to you. Just lets it out. Youfeel oh, that was I'm so glad
somebody said that. But thetruth is, we really do have to
watch ourselves. And, and notsaying I'm being being authentic
doesn't mean you say everythingyou think
Margarita Gurri (16:53):
absolutely. And as my father would say to me
Margarita, it would have beenbetter to study the fuzz on your
knee. And we know that all ofthe the books on brain science
and managing our temper andexperiences that conflict with
others say that sometimes weneed that 1020 30 however many
minutes for the hot wash ofhormones, that our fight flight.
(17:20):
Trigger is inviting us to go andsave the world when we don't
always know in our brains wereseduced with a real threat. And
a virtual threat, a threat ofthe feeling of the heart. So
what I always tell everyone isto repeat after me, I'm
wonderful. And then it's alwaysfun to have the audience say I'm
wonderful. And then I say I'mawful. And they say I'm awful.
(17:44):
And now I say get over it.
They're both true. And thatspeaks to the heart of your your
whole thing about arrogance. Weare all wonderful, we're all
awful. And even like Will Smith,who I love at the was it at the
Oscars, forgot that lesson hegot into being self important.
And the stoics would have saidto him, that he forgot that
(18:05):
there's no difference between agood experience and a bad
experience. Good. Good luck, andbad luck is just all something
that happens, or modify the loveyour fate, and make the most of
what is happening. He tookhimself too seriously. And he
took over the Oscars with hisbig bad temper, which we all
have big bad tempers. So wecan't blame him for having a
(18:27):
temper. And yet we cannot beproud of the choice he made. If
we were there, we would have notbeen proud of the choice we made
to disrupt something, not onlyonce, but three times you
disrupted it. So none of us areimportant enough to let our
temper be the star of the show.
Yonason Goldson (18:48):
Yeah, that's probably a good place to wrap it
up that we we may feel anger.
The question is what do we donext. And sometimes that means
we recognize we have toextricate, extricate ourselves
from the situation because I'mnot going to be able to monitor
myself properly right now. Butthe larger the larger approach
(19:14):
is to adopt a worldview, wherewe recognize that the world is
not here to accommodate us. Muchbetter to think of ourselves as
here to find our way of fittinginto the world.
Margarita Gurri (19:32):
And to wrap ourselves around with the
goodness remember gratitude ofgood people in your life. Focus
on goodness, don't spend toomuch time watching the news and
reading up on in justices andbad things. I think that we can,
we can load our brain and ourfeelings with goodness. And I
(19:52):
think that's one of thesolutions. And when in doubt as
my mother who says if you'retaking yourself too seriously,
go go do a good deed for someoneNo, it's alright. Okay Mama, I
will do a good deed. So needlessto say we used to polish our
neighbours shoes and sweep theirPorsches, porches and all that,
because we had manyopportunities to try and go
(20:14):
beyond our anger and tempers andIll chosen actions and words.
You probably
Yonason Goldson (20:19):
might have a story I know you'll love my
stories. I do love your stories.
It's not mine. It's a story fromJudaism. So in the Talmud, and I
think recently, we madereference to Rebbi. Akiva. Yes.
So this is another story aboutRebbi. Akiva. He was traveling
and it came to a town. And heasked for a place for the night
and they told him, sorry, wecan't accommodate you. We have
no place for you. And you can'tyou can't loiter, you can't stay
(20:42):
in the town, you gotta go. So hewent off on the road, and he
looked around, and he found aclearing in the woods. And he
settled down for the night. Andhe said, he said a phrase that
he often said, he said thateverything the Almighty does, he
does for the best. And hesettled down for the night. And
(21:02):
then he had his his, his donkey,and you had a you had a rooster.
That was a that was the alarmclock of old. And he had a
lantern. And he settled down forthe night. And suddenly, there's
a noise and a Wildcat came outof the woods and, and attacked
the donkey and killed it. Andwhile he was distracted by that,
(21:24):
a weasel key out in the woodsand killed the rooster, ah, and
as he just taking stock of thatthe wind kicked up and blow out
the lantern. So there he is nowin the dark in the woods by
himself, and he says everythingthe Almighty does he does for
the best. Well, during thenight, he heard some horrible
(21:47):
sounds, couldn't make it soundfight violence was going on. And
in the morning, he discoveredthat the town had been attacked
by marauders. And that the townhad been burned down and
everybody there and he had beenkilled or taken, taken hostage.
And had he been staying in thetown which he wanted. He would
have been, he would have been avictim too. And have he kept his
(22:10):
head, his dog, keep it aroundthe donkey could have braid and
given him away, the chickencould have crawled and given him
away the land and would haveshown likely would have found
him the ones. It says it's as Isaid, everything the Almighty
does he does for the best, allof the things that happen that
he thought were terrible. Turnedout to save him from a terrible
(22:31):
fate. And that when we getangry, talked about feeling
foolish. Often that as we feelmost foolish is when we see
sooner or later, that whathappened was actually what was
best for us. We just didn'trealize it at the time.
Margarita Gurri (22:49):
That is so true. whether someone has to
move their house because of aflood which happens to a lot of
people or they get fired from ajob or whatever. I mean, I think
this the more faculty, you know,love the faith, and ask, you
know, ask what, what is it? Youknow, again, back to your
sister, Rita balm. What is Godtrying to teach you? And what is
(23:15):
he asking you to teach others orto learn enough to teach others
so that's good. Well, I think wetalked about the overview of, of
anger. And that's all we have tosay about that for now.
Excellent. Thank you. We'll seeyou on another. Thank you,
Rabbi. We'll see you on anotherepisode of The rabbi and the
shrink. Thank you for joiningus.
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