December 1, 2022 • 22 mins
How are fear and love two sides of the same coin?
How do we describe something that is truly awesome?
What are the foundations that allow love to flourish?
These are some of the questions addressed when The Rabbi and the Shrink explore the interplay of love and fear.
Here are the bullet points:
What does it mean to invest love in the people and institutions that fill our lives.
How are zeal and jealousy connected?
Love comes from investment; it's not about what we get, but about what we give.
The Four Loves:
Philia -- family
Eros -- romantic
Storge -- empathy
Agape - platonic
Mary Matalin and James Carville: how a conservative and a liberal can find love
Why love is like a flame
Shalom means harmony, when all the pieces fit and work together
Bravery is not the lack of fear, it is facing fear
Agreeing to disagree diminishes diversity
Engaging respectfully despite profound differences makes us stronger individually and collectively
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margarita Gurri (00:03):
Welcome to another episode of The Rabbi and
The Shrink. This is Dr.
Margarita Gurri, the shrink. Andhere's my favorite Rabbi
Yonason Goldson (00:11):
Yonason Goldson.
Margarita Gurri (00:13):
Well, the good rabbi and I have decided to put
together a series as you know,on different important emotions,
and sources of strength in thesedifficult times. Let's talk
about love and fear today. Andone thing we know is we're
living in a time of fear. We arein the midst of of serious
(00:33):
pandemic. That's been prettyscary. And I think it's caused
many people to reevaluate, howto handle fear. And to
understand love as one of themost powerful antidotes to fear
and the stressors that come fromsituations that seem beyond our
(00:54):
control. The rabbi as you know,he's one of my very favorite
thinkers and storytellers,Rabbi, why don't you kick it off
with your, your Sage view onlove because I love it.
Yonason Goldson (01:06):
Well, my view is guided by the sages, so I
won't take too much credit forit. But it's very much on my
mind as we record because we'rejust a few days out from Russia
Shana, which is not just Jewishnew year, but which marks the
beginning of what we call the 10days of repentance, the High
Holidays, starting with RoshHaShana, which the sages
described as a day characterizedby fear, it's a day of judgment,
(01:30):
were judged on the on ouractions of the past year to
determine the fortunes andcircumstances that will be
prepared for us for the comingyear. And the 10 days repentance
culminate in Yom Kippur, whichis described as a day of love.
So love, and fear are rightthere together in this 10 days
(01:55):
of the high holiday season,which are also called the days
all, at all is one of thosewords, that is a little tricky
for us. Because when everythingis awesome, how do you describe
something that is truly awesome.
And what is all? Well, it is infact, the synthesis, of fear,
and love. So it's a slightlydifferent formulation
(02:20):
formulation. But really the Ithink, the same core idea that
you suggested, Doctor with fear,or with love being the antidote
for fear, but rather, fear andlove are two elements of a far
more profound outlook. Thatbeing in fear means I'm worried
I'm afraid of what's in front ofme, I'm concerned about the
(02:44):
consequences. But when fear isfused with love, then it reaches
a higher level of awe. And myexperience. In feeling this, I
felt this really must profoundlywhen my family visited Niagara
Falls. And they take you out onthis little boat and get as
(03:08):
close as possible to the fallsof the Maid of the Mist, I think
they call it and if you haven'tdone it should be on everybody's
bucket list. Because you getvery close, and you just feel
this truly awesome power. You'renot afraid they've done this
lots of times, you're not reallyworried that it is bad's gonna
(03:30):
happen. But just that proximityto raw, seemingly limitless
power. That's all. And yes,there is that element of fear
not to get too close. Butthere's also an element of love
the grandeur, the majesty, thatthis was created as part of a
(03:52):
world that's here for us. And wehave had the privilege of living
in a world where there is suchthings as this, will develop the
idea of war. But that's thebeginning of the interplay
between fear and love. I love
Margarita Gurri (04:09):
that. When I my favorite philosophers, Lao Tzu
and the Dow teaching talks aboutlove and that with true love,
let me see the exact quotethrough love, one has no fear.
And some of the research hasborne that out. Now, that stated
in a in a big way. And obviouslyfear always exists and, and
(04:33):
hopefully we avail ourselves oflove and don't misuse it. But
the whole point is we know thatthe brain with love, even just
looking at someone's eyes thatyou love, gives you more
oxytocin and helps the amygdalawith emotions, and it helps undo
any of the negative effects ofthreats. fear, stress, it's it
(04:58):
is awe inspiring is And then
Yonason Goldson (05:01):
it is and the truth is the way you're phrasing
it, I think is very relevant.
Because we have a phrasefamiliarity breeds contempt. And
if you say I mean John Lennonsaid, All You Need Is Love. And
he was right. Well, it's a niceidea. But the truth is that love
has to be built on a foundation.
(05:23):
Yes, of respect, understandingboundaries, limits, and a sense
of concern that there areconsequences. To misusing the
blessings in our lives. Therehas to be an element of fear,
that precedes the feeling oflove. Otherwise love can go out
(05:48):
of control it can it can mutateit, can it can turn into it,
take the I mean, why do we takeour closest relationships for
granted? Because we we lose thatsense of trepidation we become
too comfortable, we become toosecure, complacent in what we
have, we don't appreciate it,and we don't treat it properly.
(06:10):
And therefore, love does notmanifest even when it seems to
be the driving force in our inour relationships, unless it's
predicated by that constantconceptual fear.
Margarita Gurri (06:24):
I agree. And back to the my favorite book
that you recommended, becauseshe could you say the name for
us,
Yonason Goldson (06:29):
or Hasidic Kim, the, the ways of the righteous.
Margarita Gurri (06:34):
And I love that, and it has a whole bunch
of traits, and then talks aboutthem. And one of the thoughts
that was shared in this bookfrom the sages is that the
biggest trait that are the traitthat has the biggest impact on
action is indeed love. Whenemployed by for the sake of
good, it's so powerful, butequally, when it's misused and
(06:56):
employed for evil, then it ismore evil. So it's like, it's
like the, the that pivotal pointthat if you use it for good,
yay, and of use it for bad Whoa.
And I think that one of thethings I've seen when people are
afraid, is they begin to confuseneed codependency lost with
love. And then they misuse theirpower over other people to do
(07:23):
things that are not in the bestinterest of both individuals or
the family or greater good orthe organization. And I think
that's one of the things we'vebeen seeing when, when we're
afraid many people forget toinvest in love for the greater
good, or even for the good ofjust the primary relationships,
(07:43):
that that hold us accountablefor better life.
Yonason Goldson (07:50):
I like that word accountable.
Margarita Gurri (07:52):
Because I know you do. It's a good word, isn't
it? Yeah,
Yonason Goldson (07:54):
it has to be an element of love. I mean, what
you're describing is really verypowerful. And in Hebrew, there's
a word Kena, which translates asjealousy, or as zeal or passion
Hina Kena k i n a H it would bean English.
Margarita Gurri (08:14):
Thank you.
Kena. And
Yonason Goldson (08:18):
it's a warning, that extreme emotion can be very
good or very bad. And we see itin we see it in politics,
certainly. That you know,there's no one more dangerous
than a true believer.
Margarita Gurri (08:34):
Isn't that a zealot? Yeah, if you if you open
up the gates for one point ofview, then you close the ears
and you close the heart.
Yonason Goldson (08:43):
Exactly. And but when you when you get to the
essence of love, I always goback to to Hebrew etymology,
etymology whenever I can. Thatthe word in Hebrew is I have a H
AVH. I have a and it comes fromthe root I have which means to
(09:04):
give. When you give when youinvest in a person, an ideal a
community, inevitably you cometo love the object in which you
have invested. This is whyparents inevitably love children
more than children love parents,because parents are the givers
(09:26):
in the relationship. Andchildren are the receivers and
when did children give backsometimes they give back later
in life, but most often theygive back to their own children.
They pay it forward with thelove that they pass on to their
own children. And so part of theproblem in our society is that
we've got it backwards. We thinkthat love is all about what I
(09:47):
get. And really, it's just theopposite. It's all about what I
give. What is one of the Beatlessay we quoted John Lennon a
minute ago that they the Thelove you love you take is equal
to the love you make. I thinkthat was it, something like
that.
Margarita Gurri (10:07):
Yeah, there was there's it doesn't always add up
that way, because it depends onus and how much we put in. Well,
and it depends on the otherperson's ability to give or
take. And sometimes people arestuck in their ability to either
receive, or to give. Andsometimes it's permanent. But
luckily, most times it'stemporary. And, and we can push
(10:28):
our way through it with enoughsupport and reflection. It's
interesting. So now that bringsus to them, the Greeks, the
Greeks talk about the fourloves, and it's Philia, which is
the friend bond. We have arrows,which is romantic love with or
without sex. Store j, theempathy bond, for those that,
(10:52):
you know, in an empathy versuscompassion, as you put yourself
in other place, and you had thecourage to really put yourself
at risk by feeling theirfeelings good and, and powerful
feelings or destructive andscary feelings. So they weren't
adopted the unconditional Godlove.
Yonason Goldson (11:10):
Yes. What was the third one? storagee? I'm not
sure I'm saying
Margarita Gurri (11:15):
it, right. What is the empathy bond? And I think
it's, it's a powerful one. And Ithink sometimes, what we're
missing is that, because ittakes a lot of courage, to have
compassion, let's say there's acontinuum of compassion. You're
very much keeps us in, let'ssay, the continuum is here. And
(11:37):
this is compassion. In themiddle, empathy here on this
side, though, is lack ofinterest. Compassion is is dead
center. This is something I'vecreated. So it's right, because
I made it up, you know. So ifyou're having compassion, you
have to have the courage to pushthrough to true empathy. That's
been contributing to you. And Italk about the canceled culture
(11:59):
that's been going on, wherepeople, if they don't agree
politically, are no longerfriends or family. We're
canceling people out, because wedon't have the courage to truly
listen, to understand. And wewant to bully people, or scare
them or blackmail thememotionally into agreeing to our
(12:20):
point of view or to doing ourneeds. We see that with couples
all the time. If you love me,you would, whenever that you
know, fill in the blank. Andthat is not love. That's
emotional blackmail.
Yonason Goldson (12:32):
Yeah. And then this idea that, you know, you're
talking about politics, whichis, of course very much on our
minds that the the politicaldivide is getting wider and
wider, and the two sides areunwilling or incapable of
talking to each other. You know,a couple of my heroes today are
James Carville and Mary matalin.
He was one of Clinton'sadvisors, and is very, very left
(12:52):
wing. And she's veryconservative. And they have a
successful marriage.
Margarita Gurri (13:02):
And their love story.
Yonason Goldson (13:04):
Yeah. And then they you know, they talked about
at the end, it's inspiring,because we can be very, we can
have very different outlooks onlife. And this goes back to the
word I have I mentioned that theroot is from heart, which means
give, but it's also related tothe word la Hava, which means
flame. So what is a flame?
What's the shape of a flame, aflame is brought to the base,
(13:27):
and then tapers to a point. Andthat is symbolic of a successful
partnership or relationship,that people can be quite far
apart from each other. We saythat opposites attract. And
that's for a good reason.
Because the best partnershipsare between people who are
(13:47):
different from one another.
Margarita Gurri (13:49):
And so you're talking about not just love
partnerships, but business andcommunity partnerships.
Yonason Goldson (13:53):
Exactly, exactly. I mean, love does not
have to be romantic I think appI think the the sages example of
the most profound love isbetween David and Jonathan. And
there's nothing romantic there.
But when two people are verydifferent, and it tapers to a
point, they have a common senseof purpose. They have common
core values. They may havedifferent ways of getting there.
(14:16):
But they want the same thing inlife, for the world, for each
other for everyone that allowsthat their their differences
become a source of strength,instead of a source of division.
Margarita Gurri (14:32):
I think that's what makes our partnership
strong. We're very differentpeople. You're, you're a white
rabbi, and I'm Hispanic,Catholic, Cuban. We have very
different points of view, but wehave very similar endpoint
goals. And I think that that isbeen one of the sources of
(14:54):
strength for our growingunderstanding of various issues.
I love disagreeing with you, Ialways learned something.
Yonason Goldson (15:03):
Well, and that's what the whole, I think
that's missing a lot in the inthe conversation about
diversity, we it is being a lotabout checking boxes, rather
than about the benefits to allof us from engaging in different
points of view, understandingdifferent points of view, seeing
(15:24):
things the way other people dohaving that empathy, not because
you're going to change my mind,or I'm going to change yours,
not because you're entitled tothis, or I'm entitled to that.
But because a team is made up ofdifferent people doing different
jobs working together inharmony. And that's the Hebrew
word shalom, which is translatedas peace. It really means
(15:47):
harmony, means all the piecesworking and fitting together and
fusing into an ultimate unity.
Margarita Gurri (15:54):
I had an interesting conversation, I have
a friend, you know, her LibbyKisner. And she's a woman of
faith. She's Orthodox, she livesin Israel. And she and I are
dear friends. One of the thingsthat she and I were talking
about was our, in our opinionabout various topics that we
(16:17):
know we would disagree on,whether it's a gay marriage, or
education for women, orwhatever, no, she and I agree on
education went for women, but wehave the most interesting
conversations because we reallycare about each other, we will
never agree on this issue. Youknow, and I'm all for love is
(16:39):
love. I mean, I didn't grow upthat way, being, you know,
growing up that certain thingswere bad or evil or whatever.
But I have a different point ofview now. And it's been really
lovely. Being able to talk toher about why we see this, and
how we see it, and what would bethe impact. And I think it takes
a lot of courage for her not forme, takes a lot of courage for
(17:00):
her because she could getcriticized. And I even you I've
asked does it cause you anysocial or political issues for
you to deal with me since I'mChristian? And since I'm more
liberal than you? Does thatcause you any, any pain? Does it
put you in peril, in terms ofyour social standing, and you
have had the courage to go pastfear, to lead it and build
(17:23):
something that can help othersdiscuss these issues in an
ethical, honorable way?
Yonason Goldson (17:32):
And you know that, it doesn't mean that there
is no fear?
Margarita Gurri (17:36):
Of course not.
Yonason Goldson (17:38):
The fear is put in its proper place. And, you
know, we had Scott Mason on ourpodcast a while back. Yes, we
had I asked him, I asked you andI asked him if he was willing to
have a conversation about howit's possible for someone come
from a biblical point of view,can have a can engage in and
have a cordial relationship withsomebody who's gay. And and he
(18:01):
was very excited to theprospect. And we had that
conversation, which ourlisteners can go go look up. But
he asked me, when I proposed, hesaid, Could you Could there be
any backlash against you? Yes,having this conversation with
me? And I said, Yeah. And hesaid, well, and there could be
some backlash against me forhaving a conversation with you.
(18:23):
Indeed. And we went ahead andyou know, just, I, when when we
were done, I sent I sent thevideo to the rabbi, my synagogue
is pretty seriously, in thewhat, what, what the media would
call the ultra orthodox camp.
And he loved it. He loved thatwe were able to have that
(18:45):
conversation respectfully. Well,that's true. But yeah, without
apologetics, and it's not evenagreeing to disagree. I think
that that doesn't frame itproperly.
Margarita Gurri (18:59):
I agree with you, I think diminishes it.
Yeah.
Yonason Goldson (19:02):
I think we do disagree.
Margarita Gurri (19:04):
I think it's agreeing to understand or to
understand. That's,
Yonason Goldson (19:07):
yeah, that's the point that you were making
earlier, Dr. Burton, we want tounderstand each other better, in
order to be able to empathize,to see the humanity in other
people. And the fear gives us acertain respect, it sets
boundaries. And it allows loveto flourish. That sense of
common bond that common we'reall human beings, we're all
(19:30):
created in the image of God. Weall have our our quirks and our
shortcomings and and our blindspots. And yet, by working
together by coming together, wecan we can all become much
greater than the sum of ourparts.
Margarita Gurri (19:48):
That's for sure. You know, in my in my work
with clients, and most recently,sometimes I do, couples
weekend's retreats and or I'llwork with teams in the top Book
of Love comes up. But thebiggest deficit that I have seen
in many groups is self love.
Many people have been scared tolove themselves, until they
(20:10):
perceive they hit certainmetrics for success, or for for
being good enough. And I thinkthat's backwards. I think we
have to know I mean, I'mCatholic. So I know that, you
know, God made you the wayyou're supposed to be. So of
course, you're supposed to loveyourself and quarks, and all
those are all the gifts. Infact, without the weirdnesses
that we have, I mean, youwouldn't be special. And that's
(20:32):
often the gateway to beingamazing. And to risking
excellence is to look at what'sweird or different about you and
go that route. So I'm going tourge everyone listening to say,
what are you doing to buildyourself love, but not at the
expense of others? And what areyou doing to use that self love?
Help yourself, listen morekindly, with more civility
Yonason Goldson (20:59):
to others. And that message is right there in
the starting point of it all.
Love your neighbor as yourself,love your fellow as yourself.
First, you have to loveyourself. Because if you don't,
you're not capable of lovinganybody else. We agree on that.
Margarita Gurri (21:19):
Well, I think we've hit the topic of loving
fear. In our quick littleepisode. And Rabbi, it's always
it's a pleasure chatting withyou on these things. If you guys
have questions or comments,please reach us at the rabbi and
the shrink.com. We have a placefor comments there. We'll see
you on another episode of Therabbi and the shrink. Thank you
(21:41):
for joining.
Unknown (21:42):
Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink
everyday ethics unscripted, twobook Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita
Guri, or Rabbi Jonas and Goldsonas speakers or advisors for your
organization, contact them atthe rabbi and the shrink.com.
This has been a doctor Red Shoeproduction
Welcome to another episode of The Rabbi and
The Shrink. This is Dr.
Margarita Gurri, the shrink. Andhere's my favorite Rabbi
Yonason Goldson (00:11):
Yonason Goldson.
Margarita Gurri (00:13):
Well, the good rabbi and I have decided to put
together a series as you know,on different important emotions,
and sources of strength in thesedifficult times. Let's talk
about love and fear today. Andone thing we know is we're
living in a time of fear. We arein the midst of of serious
(00:33):
pandemic. That's been prettyscary. And I think it's caused
many people to reevaluate, howto handle fear. And to
understand love as one of themost powerful antidotes to fear
and the stressors that come fromsituations that seem beyond our
(00:54):
control. The rabbi as you know,he's one of my very favorite
thinkers and storytellers,Rabbi, why don't you kick it off
with your, your Sage view onlove because I love it.
Yonason Goldson (01:06):
Well, my view is guided by the sages, so I
won't take too much credit forit. But it's very much on my
mind as we record because we'rejust a few days out from Russia
Shana, which is not just Jewishnew year, but which marks the
beginning of what we call the 10days of repentance, the High
Holidays, starting with RoshHaShana, which the sages
described as a day characterizedby fear, it's a day of judgment,
(01:30):
were judged on the on ouractions of the past year to
determine the fortunes andcircumstances that will be
prepared for us for the comingyear. And the 10 days repentance
culminate in Yom Kippur, whichis described as a day of love.
So love, and fear are rightthere together in this 10 days
(01:55):
of the high holiday season,which are also called the days
all, at all is one of thosewords, that is a little tricky
for us. Because when everythingis awesome, how do you describe
something that is truly awesome.
And what is all? Well, it is infact, the synthesis, of fear,
and love. So it's a slightlydifferent formulation
(02:20):
formulation. But really the Ithink, the same core idea that
you suggested, Doctor with fear,or with love being the antidote
for fear, but rather, fear andlove are two elements of a far
more profound outlook. Thatbeing in fear means I'm worried
I'm afraid of what's in front ofme, I'm concerned about the
(02:44):
consequences. But when fear isfused with love, then it reaches
a higher level of awe. And myexperience. In feeling this, I
felt this really must profoundlywhen my family visited Niagara
Falls. And they take you out onthis little boat and get as
(03:08):
close as possible to the fallsof the Maid of the Mist, I think
they call it and if you haven'tdone it should be on everybody's
bucket list. Because you getvery close, and you just feel
this truly awesome power. You'renot afraid they've done this
lots of times, you're not reallyworried that it is bad's gonna
(03:30):
happen. But just that proximityto raw, seemingly limitless
power. That's all. And yes,there is that element of fear
not to get too close. Butthere's also an element of love
the grandeur, the majesty, thatthis was created as part of a
(03:52):
world that's here for us. And wehave had the privilege of living
in a world where there is suchthings as this, will develop the
idea of war. But that's thebeginning of the interplay
between fear and love. I love
Margarita Gurri (04:09):
that. When I my favorite philosophers, Lao Tzu
and the Dow teaching talks aboutlove and that with true love,
let me see the exact quotethrough love, one has no fear.
And some of the research hasborne that out. Now, that stated
in a in a big way. And obviouslyfear always exists and, and
(04:33):
hopefully we avail ourselves oflove and don't misuse it. But
the whole point is we know thatthe brain with love, even just
looking at someone's eyes thatyou love, gives you more
oxytocin and helps the amygdalawith emotions, and it helps undo
any of the negative effects ofthreats. fear, stress, it's it
(04:58):
is awe inspiring is And then
Yonason Goldson (05:01):
it is and the truth is the way you're phrasing
it, I think is very relevant.
Because we have a phrasefamiliarity breeds contempt. And
if you say I mean John Lennonsaid, All You Need Is Love. And
he was right. Well, it's a niceidea. But the truth is that love
has to be built on a foundation.
(05:23):
Yes, of respect, understandingboundaries, limits, and a sense
of concern that there areconsequences. To misusing the
blessings in our lives. Therehas to be an element of fear,
that precedes the feeling oflove. Otherwise love can go out
(05:48):
of control it can it can mutateit, can it can turn into it,
take the I mean, why do we takeour closest relationships for
granted? Because we we lose thatsense of trepidation we become
too comfortable, we become toosecure, complacent in what we
have, we don't appreciate it,and we don't treat it properly.
(06:10):
And therefore, love does notmanifest even when it seems to
be the driving force in our inour relationships, unless it's
predicated by that constantconceptual fear.
Margarita Gurri (06:24):
I agree. And back to the my favorite book
that you recommended, becauseshe could you say the name for
us,
Yonason Goldson (06:29):
or Hasidic Kim, the, the ways of the righteous.
Margarita Gurri (06:34):
And I love that, and it has a whole bunch
of traits, and then talks aboutthem. And one of the thoughts
that was shared in this bookfrom the sages is that the
biggest trait that are the traitthat has the biggest impact on
action is indeed love. Whenemployed by for the sake of
good, it's so powerful, butequally, when it's misused and
(06:56):
employed for evil, then it ismore evil. So it's like, it's
like the, the that pivotal pointthat if you use it for good,
yay, and of use it for bad Whoa.
And I think that one of thethings I've seen when people are
afraid, is they begin to confuseneed codependency lost with
love. And then they misuse theirpower over other people to do
(07:23):
things that are not in the bestinterest of both individuals or
the family or greater good orthe organization. And I think
that's one of the things we'vebeen seeing when, when we're
afraid many people forget toinvest in love for the greater
good, or even for the good ofjust the primary relationships,
(07:43):
that that hold us accountablefor better life.
Yonason Goldson (07:50):
I like that word accountable.
Margarita Gurri (07:52):
Because I know you do. It's a good word, isn't
it? Yeah,
Yonason Goldson (07:54):
it has to be an element of love. I mean, what
you're describing is really verypowerful. And in Hebrew, there's
a word Kena, which translates asjealousy, or as zeal or passion
Hina Kena k i n a H it would bean English.
Margarita Gurri (08:14):
Thank you.
Kena. And
Yonason Goldson (08:18):
it's a warning, that extreme emotion can be very
good or very bad. And we see itin we see it in politics,
certainly. That you know,there's no one more dangerous
than a true believer.
Margarita Gurri (08:34):
Isn't that a zealot? Yeah, if you if you open
up the gates for one point ofview, then you close the ears
and you close the heart.
Yonason Goldson (08:43):
Exactly. And but when you when you get to the
essence of love, I always goback to to Hebrew etymology,
etymology whenever I can. Thatthe word in Hebrew is I have a H
AVH. I have a and it comes fromthe root I have which means to
(09:04):
give. When you give when youinvest in a person, an ideal a
community, inevitably you cometo love the object in which you
have invested. This is whyparents inevitably love children
more than children love parents,because parents are the givers
(09:26):
in the relationship. Andchildren are the receivers and
when did children give backsometimes they give back later
in life, but most often theygive back to their own children.
They pay it forward with thelove that they pass on to their
own children. And so part of theproblem in our society is that
we've got it backwards. We thinkthat love is all about what I
(09:47):
get. And really, it's just theopposite. It's all about what I
give. What is one of the Beatlessay we quoted John Lennon a
minute ago that they the Thelove you love you take is equal
to the love you make. I thinkthat was it, something like
that.
Margarita Gurri (10:07):
Yeah, there was there's it doesn't always add up
that way, because it depends onus and how much we put in. Well,
and it depends on the otherperson's ability to give or
take. And sometimes people arestuck in their ability to either
receive, or to give. Andsometimes it's permanent. But
luckily, most times it'stemporary. And, and we can push
(10:28):
our way through it with enoughsupport and reflection. It's
interesting. So now that bringsus to them, the Greeks, the
Greeks talk about the fourloves, and it's Philia, which is
the friend bond. We have arrows,which is romantic love with or
without sex. Store j, theempathy bond, for those that,
(10:52):
you know, in an empathy versuscompassion, as you put yourself
in other place, and you had thecourage to really put yourself
at risk by feeling theirfeelings good and, and powerful
feelings or destructive andscary feelings. So they weren't
adopted the unconditional Godlove.
Yonason Goldson (11:10):
Yes. What was the third one? storagee? I'm not
sure I'm saying
Margarita Gurri (11:15):
it, right. What is the empathy bond? And I think
it's, it's a powerful one. And Ithink sometimes, what we're
missing is that, because ittakes a lot of courage, to have
compassion, let's say there's acontinuum of compassion. You're
very much keeps us in, let'ssay, the continuum is here. And
(11:37):
this is compassion. In themiddle, empathy here on this
side, though, is lack ofinterest. Compassion is is dead
center. This is something I'vecreated. So it's right, because
I made it up, you know. So ifyou're having compassion, you
have to have the courage to pushthrough to true empathy. That's
been contributing to you. And Italk about the canceled culture
(11:59):
that's been going on, wherepeople, if they don't agree
politically, are no longerfriends or family. We're
canceling people out, because wedon't have the courage to truly
listen, to understand. And wewant to bully people, or scare
them or blackmail thememotionally into agreeing to our
(12:20):
point of view or to doing ourneeds. We see that with couples
all the time. If you love me,you would, whenever that you
know, fill in the blank. Andthat is not love. That's
emotional blackmail.
Yonason Goldson (12:32):
Yeah. And then this idea that, you know, you're
talking about politics, whichis, of course very much on our
minds that the the politicaldivide is getting wider and
wider, and the two sides areunwilling or incapable of
talking to each other. You know,a couple of my heroes today are
James Carville and Mary matalin.
He was one of Clinton'sadvisors, and is very, very left
(12:52):
wing. And she's veryconservative. And they have a
successful marriage.
Margarita Gurri (13:02):
And their love story.
Yonason Goldson (13:04):
Yeah. And then they you know, they talked about
at the end, it's inspiring,because we can be very, we can
have very different outlooks onlife. And this goes back to the
word I have I mentioned that theroot is from heart, which means
give, but it's also related tothe word la Hava, which means
flame. So what is a flame?
What's the shape of a flame, aflame is brought to the base,
(13:27):
and then tapers to a point. Andthat is symbolic of a successful
partnership or relationship,that people can be quite far
apart from each other. We saythat opposites attract. And
that's for a good reason.
Because the best partnershipsare between people who are
(13:47):
different from one another.
Margarita Gurri (13:49):
And so you're talking about not just love
partnerships, but business andcommunity partnerships.
Yonason Goldson (13:53):
Exactly, exactly. I mean, love does not
have to be romantic I think appI think the the sages example of
the most profound love isbetween David and Jonathan. And
there's nothing romantic there.
But when two people are verydifferent, and it tapers to a
point, they have a common senseof purpose. They have common
core values. They may havedifferent ways of getting there.
(14:16):
But they want the same thing inlife, for the world, for each
other for everyone that allowsthat their their differences
become a source of strength,instead of a source of division.
Margarita Gurri (14:32):
I think that's what makes our partnership
strong. We're very differentpeople. You're, you're a white
rabbi, and I'm Hispanic,Catholic, Cuban. We have very
different points of view, but wehave very similar endpoint
goals. And I think that that isbeen one of the sources of
(14:54):
strength for our growingunderstanding of various issues.
I love disagreeing with you, Ialways learned something.
Yonason Goldson (15:03):
Well, and that's what the whole, I think
that's missing a lot in the inthe conversation about
diversity, we it is being a lotabout checking boxes, rather
than about the benefits to allof us from engaging in different
points of view, understandingdifferent points of view, seeing
(15:24):
things the way other people dohaving that empathy, not because
you're going to change my mind,or I'm going to change yours,
not because you're entitled tothis, or I'm entitled to that.
But because a team is made up ofdifferent people doing different
jobs working together inharmony. And that's the Hebrew
word shalom, which is translatedas peace. It really means
(15:47):
harmony, means all the piecesworking and fitting together and
fusing into an ultimate unity.
Margarita Gurri (15:54):
I had an interesting conversation, I have
a friend, you know, her LibbyKisner. And she's a woman of
faith. She's Orthodox, she livesin Israel. And she and I are
dear friends. One of the thingsthat she and I were talking
about was our, in our opinionabout various topics that we
(16:17):
know we would disagree on,whether it's a gay marriage, or
education for women, orwhatever, no, she and I agree on
education went for women, but wehave the most interesting
conversations because we reallycare about each other, we will
never agree on this issue. Youknow, and I'm all for love is
(16:39):
love. I mean, I didn't grow upthat way, being, you know,
growing up that certain thingswere bad or evil or whatever.
But I have a different point ofview now. And it's been really
lovely. Being able to talk toher about why we see this, and
how we see it, and what would bethe impact. And I think it takes
a lot of courage for her not forme, takes a lot of courage for
(17:00):
her because she could getcriticized. And I even you I've
asked does it cause you anysocial or political issues for
you to deal with me since I'mChristian? And since I'm more
liberal than you? Does thatcause you any, any pain? Does it
put you in peril, in terms ofyour social standing, and you
have had the courage to go pastfear, to lead it and build
(17:23):
something that can help othersdiscuss these issues in an
ethical, honorable way?
Yonason Goldson (17:32):
And you know that, it doesn't mean that there
is no fear?
Margarita Gurri (17:36):
Of course not.
Yonason Goldson (17:38):
The fear is put in its proper place. And, you
know, we had Scott Mason on ourpodcast a while back. Yes, we
had I asked him, I asked you andI asked him if he was willing to
have a conversation about howit's possible for someone come
from a biblical point of view,can have a can engage in and
have a cordial relationship withsomebody who's gay. And and he
(18:01):
was very excited to theprospect. And we had that
conversation, which ourlisteners can go go look up. But
he asked me, when I proposed, hesaid, Could you Could there be
any backlash against you? Yes,having this conversation with
me? And I said, Yeah. And hesaid, well, and there could be
some backlash against me forhaving a conversation with you.
(18:23):
Indeed. And we went ahead andyou know, just, I, when when we
were done, I sent I sent thevideo to the rabbi, my synagogue
is pretty seriously, in thewhat, what, what the media would
call the ultra orthodox camp.
And he loved it. He loved thatwe were able to have that
(18:45):
conversation respectfully. Well,that's true. But yeah, without
apologetics, and it's not evenagreeing to disagree. I think
that that doesn't frame itproperly.
Margarita Gurri (18:59):
I agree with you, I think diminishes it.
Yeah.
Yonason Goldson (19:02):
I think we do disagree.
Margarita Gurri (19:04):
I think it's agreeing to understand or to
understand. That's,
Yonason Goldson (19:07):
yeah, that's the point that you were making
earlier, Dr. Burton, we want tounderstand each other better, in
order to be able to empathize,to see the humanity in other
people. And the fear gives us acertain respect, it sets
boundaries. And it allows loveto flourish. That sense of
common bond that common we'reall human beings, we're all
(19:30):
created in the image of God. Weall have our our quirks and our
shortcomings and and our blindspots. And yet, by working
together by coming together, wecan we can all become much
greater than the sum of ourparts.
Margarita Gurri (19:48):
That's for sure. You know, in my in my work
with clients, and most recently,sometimes I do, couples
weekend's retreats and or I'llwork with teams in the top Book
of Love comes up. But thebiggest deficit that I have seen
in many groups is self love.
Many people have been scared tolove themselves, until they
(20:10):
perceive they hit certainmetrics for success, or for for
being good enough. And I thinkthat's backwards. I think we
have to know I mean, I'mCatholic. So I know that, you
know, God made you the wayyou're supposed to be. So of
course, you're supposed to loveyourself and quarks, and all
those are all the gifts. Infact, without the weirdnesses
that we have, I mean, youwouldn't be special. And that's
(20:32):
often the gateway to beingamazing. And to risking
excellence is to look at what'sweird or different about you and
go that route. So I'm going tourge everyone listening to say,
what are you doing to buildyourself love, but not at the
expense of others? And what areyou doing to use that self love?
Help yourself, listen morekindly, with more civility
Yonason Goldson (20:59):
to others. And that message is right there in
the starting point of it all.
Love your neighbor as yourself,love your fellow as yourself.
First, you have to loveyourself. Because if you don't,
you're not capable of lovinganybody else. We agree on that.
Margarita Gurri (21:19):
Well, I think we've hit the topic of loving
fear. In our quick littleepisode. And Rabbi, it's always
it's a pleasure chatting withyou on these things. If you guys
have questions or comments,please reach us at the rabbi and
the shrink.com. We have a placefor comments there. We'll see
you on another episode of Therabbi and the shrink. Thank you
(21:41):
for joining.
Unknown (21:42):
Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink
everyday ethics unscripted, twobook Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita
Guri, or Rabbi Jonas and Goldsonas speakers or advisors for your
organization, contact them atthe rabbi and the shrink.com.
This has been a doctor Red Shoeproduction
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