December 8, 2022 • 24 mins
How can we be happy if we don't have an accurate definition of what joy is or where it comes from?
That's the question we address in this episode of The Rabbi and the Shrink.
Here are the bullet points:
Eight words in Hebrew translate as joy or happiness -- all have root meanings of growth or progress.
Budding -- the joy of potential about to be brought into the world
Blossoming -- the joy of growth about to reach fruition
Satisfaction -- absolute fulfillment, which succeeds joy, but is often followed by letdown
In the West, we conflate happiness and pleasure. Pleasure is not a source of happiness, but distraction from unhappiness
Pleasure and pain are not opposites; they go hand in hand
Joy contains an element of the transcendent
Is joy a function of purpose or of connection? Or are these really the same?
Find joy in correcting our mistakes
Happiness is a choice we make that emerges from gratitude
If I'm entitled, I have no gratitude and nothing to work toward
Achievement without struggle can be deeply dissatisfying
Happiness comes from choosing the things that matter most and relinquishing the things that matter less
We have to let go of pettiness if we want to attach ourselves to nobility
Investment is not sacrifice; maturity is recognizing that we can't have everything
Don't be a monkey trapped by its own unwillingness to let go
What's in your monkey trap?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margarita Gurri (00:03):
Welcome to another episode of The Rabbi and
the Shrink. This is Dr.
Margarita Gurri, the shrink. Andhere's my favorite rabbi,
Yonason Goldso (00:11):
Yonason Goldson.
Margarita Gurri (00:12):
And today's topic is joy. Oh to joy, I can
just hear it in the background.
The rabbi in our are talkingabout a variety of different
feeling states and blessingsthat can help us on our path,
leading amazing lives ofexcellence and ethical richness
forever. I talk to us about joy,sir,
Yonason Goldson (00:36):
I would love to and this is also on my mind, we
recently recorded a conversationabout fear and love, because
we're approaching High HolidaysRosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur
war. And then those days areimmediately followed by the
festival of Sukkot. So Sukkotlet's call the festival
Tabernacles. And that isdescribed by the sages as a
(00:57):
season of joy. And so it's verymuch on my mind right now in
some minds of Jewish peopleright now. Now in in, in Hebrew
and biblical Hebrew, they'reeight words that all translate
as some form of joy orhappiness, and they all relate
to some form of growth orprogress. And I'll start off by
(01:23):
by sharing two of them. One isthe word Simcha which is
phonetically related to a rootmeaning to bud and another is
the word Sawsan which, which hasthe meaning of blossom. So if
(01:44):
you think about going out toyour garden in the springtime,
and you're looking at yourrosebush, and it's been dormant
through the winter, and then theleaves are starting to come
back, and then you see the firstbud. And you feel this surge of
emotion. This is why you havethe rosebush to produce the
(02:05):
flower. While the flower is notout yet. The bud is potential
joy is the sense of potentialthat is about to be implemented.
So it's about you're about toembark on a journey on a mission
(02:26):
with a purpose. And then as youwork your way through that, it
blossoms. It comes into beingand as the flower blossoms
that's a different manifestationof joy. You're approaching the
fulfillment of, of your desireof your purpose of your mission.
(02:51):
Now, what's interesting is thatwhen that mission or purpose is
fulfilled, there's thismomentary elation of
satisfaction, but then it'soften followed by a kind of a
depression, a letdown. You'rereading a really good book,
you're watching a really goodmovie, you listen to a wonderful
song, you get to the end, andit's over. Now what where do we
(03:12):
go from here? So that's not joy.
You know, we seek satisfaction,but satisfaction is a it's a
double edged sword. Joy is theis being involved in reaching
and attaining a meaningfulpurpose, that is going to give
us satisfaction. And beinginvolved in that process, is
(03:32):
what is ultimately the source ofgenuine happiness and joy.
Margarita Gurri (03:40):
So that goes to the heart of a lot of conflict
in various researchers andphilosophers. And I'll just put
out the questions and then wecan discuss them. Is happiness a
choice? is joy choice. is joyavailable to everyone? Or is it
predicated on good deeds or goodthoughts? The whole idea of
(04:01):
deserving joy and happiness isan issue that has been very
controversial. So let's go backto that, but that potential is
that been available to everyone?
Yonason Goldson (04:18):
It is but not always in the way that we have
come to expect it. In, in inmodern society in Western
society. I think our biggestproblem is that we conflate
happy happiness and pleasure.
Yes, we do. And pleasures,great. Ice creams, wonderful.
sensual pleasures are part oflife and should be enjoyed.
Margarita Gurri (04:47):
Well, I'm getting dark juices on my foot
right now. So yes,
Yonason Goldson (04:51):
I can help with that. But it's not there's
nothing joyful because what'sthe evidence? Same thing we just
talked about. You finish thebowl of ice cream, you finish
the the chocolate bar, you youfinish the central pleasure that
you're you're reveling in. Andwhat do you have? What's left?
Margarita Gurri (05:13):
A great memory and sensation?
Yonason Goldson (05:15):
Yeah, except Except the sensation doesn't
last very long.
Margarita Gurri (05:18):
But you can't recall it.
Yonason Goldson (05:20):
But you can.
But what all that does is itmakes you want more? Yes, it
does, right. And when a personis in a state of joy, they're
gonna be upset, they're gonna bedowns. You know, there's really
there doesn't have to be acontradiction between joy and
pain. Some pains are good,right? I have not personally
(05:45):
been through childbirth. I haveI have I have it on good
authority. It's not the mostpleasant experience.
Margarita Gurri (05:55):
Oh, we wasn't bad. And it was so exciting.
Yonason Goldson (05:59):
Why do women put themselves in a position
especially when they've beenthrough a once? Why do they put
themselves in that position?
Because they know that that painis necessary to bring about
something that is supremelyvaluable. It is so worth it. And
and you know, one of one of ourrecent rabbis Rabbi know,
Weinberg, he said, you askpeople, what's the opposite of
(06:20):
pleasure? They say pain. Butthen you ask them, what's your
greatest pleasure? And they say,your children? What's your
greatest pain your children?
That's the universe universal.
They go hand in hand. It's theit's the struggle. And I think
even there, again, it's amisunderstanding of the word
pleasure, because children arenot necessarily pleasurable. But
(06:43):
they certainly can bring us joy.
Well, and they
Margarita Gurri (06:49):
can be very pleasurable, but nothing's with
kids, because they're growingup, of course, is not pleasure
palace, you know, on a, youknow, 100%, you know? So let's
go back to the issue ofhappiness then, in looking at
some of the research and some ofthe philosophers, that no one
(07:10):
seems to agree on what joy andhappiness is. And one of the
things that you and I weretalking about is that maybe we
don't agree on much, but thatjoy does seem to be blessed with
a bit of grace, that there'ssome sort of spiritual component
too much of joy. And notnecessarily to happiness is that
(07:32):
are we in agreement on that as aas a starting point for this
discussion? Or nowhere?
Yonason Goldson (07:37):
Can you develop that idea a little bit more for
me, for sure.
Margarita Gurri (07:40):
So some of the more controversial
Unknown (07:45):
readings that I've
Margarita Gurri (07:47):
that I've come across, and people with whom
I've spoken, take it to adifferent level that I don't
agree with that. That joy iscomes from God and Heaven only
and happiness is secular. Itsday to day and one's internal
one's external. I don't agreethat my point of view is that I
believe, for me, joy, could be ahappiness that's imbued with
(08:12):
grace, some spiritual extras,supersize element of connection,
of pleasure, of ecstasy andwhatever. And that's how I see
it. Now. I don't know if youagree with that. What do you
think, Rabbi?
Yonason Goldson (08:31):
I think there's definitely something to that.
You know, I had a guest on my onmy ethics panel, JC Glick. He's
a former Army Ranger LieutenantColonel, we should have him on
the podcast. Oh, yeah, let's doa really, really remarkable
fella. And I we got into thistopic, and I explained my
formulation of joy and happinessas a function of purpose. And he
(08:56):
pushed back. And he said hethinks that's wrong, because he
said he thinks that people canhave misguided purpose. And he
felt that joy was really afunction of connection. Yes,
that's the grace. I agreeexactly. And and I said that I
didn't disagree with him, thatwhen I say that joy is a
function of purpose, one has tohave a worthy purpose. And then
(09:17):
one is connected to the goal,the ideal, which could be God.
And at the same time, one isconnected to all those who are
engaged in the same purpose,which is what we talked about in
the previous segment about love,that sense of connection through
(09:41):
common purpose. So I don't seethat there is an either or
there. Certainly, people canmake themselves very unhappy by
pursuing the wrong goals and thewrong ideals and engaging in in
in purposes that are notbeneficial to them or to
(10:02):
mankind.
Margarita Gurri (10:03):
And yet that is part of happiness, realizing
that you're going down the wrongpath, and getting excited about
the failure or the frustrationand then switching gears. So
even in that misguided effort, Ithink there's a lot of happiness
enjoy to find your, your mainpurpose or where you need to be
(10:26):
to achieve the goals that youthought were good, maybe rewrite
the goals, or rewrite the pathto those stated
Yonason Goldson (10:32):
goals. Now that requires tremendous emotional
maturity. You know, we don'tlike being wrong. You know what
my my college professor Maxbirdie said, I don't understand
why people complain about beingdisillusioned. I would like to
be relieved of my illusions. Andeven as a college student, I I
push back and I said, Well,yeah, but that's fine. Who wants
(10:57):
that? are illusions we like,yeah,
Margarita Gurri (11:01):
no, I think I think many of us die die on that
hill defending an illusion thatcan no longer be defended. I
mean,
Yonason Goldson (11:09):
if you've ever had the unpleasant experience of
being an argument, and suddenlyrealizing in the midst of the
heated debate, you realizeyou're wrong.
Margarita Gurri (11:16):
Oh, anyway, double down and start arguing
harder. Anyone with childrenknows the experience of
discovering that they're wrong,as they tell us all the time.
It's kind of interesting. Solet's talk about happiness for a
second. You know, I came to thiscountry as a refugee. And I
learned something very early on,when we were in Flagler Street
(11:37):
in Miami. Not the bestneighborhood in the world, we
were in a little house with anorange sectional couch, I mean,
just when we first arrived, nextto the cemetery, and behind the
firehouse, if that tells you it.
And what I learned is that wechoose happiness, because many
other refugees came. And many ofthem brought their, their
(11:59):
service, is that the right wayyou're saying with them, and
they brought their pain, theirtheir grief with them. And
instead of embracing thefreedom, the United States, my
parents taught me happiness,because they would say I weird,
my mother would say, We're inAmerica now. We are free. Of
course, we're happy. We arefree. We don't have to talk
(12:22):
about that. That man. She wouldnever say Castro that man. We
don't have to talk about him. Weare Americans now. And we are
grateful. So they chose to nottell me they were wealthy in
Cuba. They didn't ever talkabout what they lost, ever. I
never heard them oncecomplaining. Now maybe they did
to my older siblings, as my twinsister and I were the two
youngest by quite a few years.
(12:45):
But I never heard it. In all theyears I knew them. I never heard
them complain, not once. No, shewould complain about our
manners. I have been. We've beenin America too long. These
children have bad manners, youknow that? That kind of thing.
But I learned that happiness wasa choice. It's not only a state
of mind. But it's in that sense,a state of grace. You choose
(13:06):
your gratitude. You choosepeople that you hang with, you
choose the news, you watch. Ifit's too negative, it's not
going to make you happy. Ithappiness, I believe, is a
choice. Do you agree or disagreewith that? Steve?
Yonason Goldson (13:20):
I think that's absolutely right. And I think
that that that really sums up somuch of the popular discontent
of our age, that sense ofentitlement, if I'm entitled,
that I really have nothing towork for. And so I have no
purpose and why are so many richpeople on Happy wire. Why do
(13:42):
vital to successful people. Imean, I heard this story a while
back, and I wish I couldremember the name of the artist.
Because I heard her tell it onin an interview and it was just
so compelling to what she was alittle girl. And she she was at
her first school play. Shewanted to be in the play. And so
the next day, she tried out shegot in the play. And then when
she got the play well now shewanted to have a starring role.
(14:05):
And she got the next time shegot the starring role. And then
she wanted to sing a solo. Shecan sing a song. And then she
wanted to be a performanceartist. And she became she
wanted to record a song and shedid and she wanted to record an
album and she did and she wantedit to be successful. It wasn't
she wanted to go gold and itdid. And then the next one went
platinum or the next one doubleplatinum. And then she attempted
(14:28):
suicide because she was in herearly 20s. And what else is
there? There was nothing else tostrive for. And here's somebody
who got everything she wanted.
Perhaps too easy, perhaps toosoon. And was left with now
(14:48):
what's the rest of my life goingto be about? It was such a sad
story.
Margarita Gurri (14:58):
When see I see as psychologists have seen that
so many times. And I think weforget that achievement.
Whatever the metric is, whetherit's money or certain levels of
success, in our striving forthat we can neglect our self
love, but we can also neglectour relationships. Because
(15:18):
without someone to share itwith, without cultivating the
love of good people all aroundus, life is indeed empty.
Yonason Goldson (15:29):
And to go back to your point about grace, when
King David says in the Psalmsserve God with joy, which
suggests that if you're notjoyful, you're not serving God.
And if you are serving God, thenjoy should be the natural
outcome of that that connection,that purpose, exactly we've been
(15:52):
talking about. And it's not justGod, it's, it's the divinity of
every human being, yes, findrelationships,
Margarita Gurri (16:02):
including ourselves. We have to treat each
other as if we are dear. Youknow, it's interesting. And so
many religions, cultures andsuperstitions dictate that love
that happiness comes fromsuffering, that we must suffer.
And I certainly don't agree withthat. If we suffer, we can use
(16:23):
that and as, as a calling cardto, to dive into more joy and
love and whatever. But I do notbelieve that suffering is a
necessary element to happiness.
Enjoy sacrifices, though. Well,yeah, I don't this is my there's
my take on it. I don't believethat we can have joy and
(16:45):
happiness without sacrifice. Andlet me explain. If I want to
have a great relationship withsomeone, I have to sacrifice
pettiness grudges, I have tosacrifice. Let's say someone's
married, and they see someonethat might be cuter or sexier.
Will you sacrifice? Because yousay no, because you work on the
(17:06):
relationship that you hold dear.
So I do not believe that we canhave everything. I think we get
happiness by choosing the thingsthat matter. And by being
grateful for those things wehave, and back to the stoics a
motor Fathi. If we have a badthing happen, find a way to love
(17:29):
it and look for the grace there.
And there is happiness and joywithin all events that feel good
or feel bad. Without I thinksome sacrifice, not pain and
suffering. I believe you cannothave joy.
Yonason Goldson (17:46):
I think that's a good try. Mic drop moment.
Doctor and I made this dough onyou rabbinic ordination. Oh,
well, thank you. I was I was ata virtual lecture yesterday last
night, and this was exactly therabbi's point, that we have to
let go pettiness, if we want toattach ourselves to more noble
(18:11):
ideals, I would I would tweak ita little bit and say, you know,
in the in the temple inJerusalem, they would bring
offerings of animals on thealtar. And that's often
translated into English assacrifices. But that's not
really the word that's used. Theword for offering shares a route
(18:34):
with a word for for intimacy.
And what we talked about beforeof giving, we talked about love
investment. Investing, isinvesting really a sacrifice.
You're giving up something now,but I'm not really giving it up.
I'm simply channeling it in adirection. I used to tell my
(18:56):
students that when I was young,I had two goals in life. I
wanted to be a trapeze artist inthe circus I wanted to be and I
wanted to be a sumo wrestler.
Now, of course, I never reallywanted either of things, things
blinded by the making the point,you know, I could choose one or
the other if I really wanted it,but I couldn't do both. Now,
(19:17):
different body types. Andmaturity is recognizing you
can't have everything. And ifyou try to have everything I
mean, you know, we knowdilettantes we've got 27
different degrees and neverworked. Because they just can't
narrow down your people whocan't form intimate
relationships. Because, well ifI commit to this person, that
(19:39):
means I can't play the fieldanymore. I can't all those other
people out there.
Margarita Gurri (19:43):
Well, but that's when they're thinking of
love is external to them. Youhave to have self love first.
Love yourself, then it's easierto make those choices.
Yonason Goldson (19:53):
But it's also that focus that investment and
yes, the inevitable a I'm goingto cut out other options when I
make one choice, but to think ofas a sacrifice is perhaps not so
helpful. Because then it get thesense of I'm looking at what I'm
(20:15):
giving up. Well, I have to giveup something to get anything.
Margarita Gurri (20:21):
But it is a sacrifice. But for the for the
greater good. It is a sacrifice.
But it's also for my good. Yes,it's also Yes. Also for your
good, I agree.
Yonason Goldson (20:33):
You don't have to think of it as a sacrifice.
Margarita Gurri (20:36):
Well, that's because you're you're mature.
But for people who are greedy orscared, they have to accept any
sacrifice, if you've chosenWell, begins to be a blessing.
It feels like a blessing.
Yonason Goldson (20:48):
But you'd have to work through it. And that's
why I prefer to call itinvestments. But Well, I
Margarita Gurri (20:51):
agree it's an investment because but because I
deal with so many people who areholding on one of my favorite
images in like Homer Simpson iswhen he was trying to get the
coke from the machine, the thesoda machine, and he had his
hand in there, but he couldn'tget his hand down. But he had to
let go of the coke. So hecouldn't make a choice. He he
(21:14):
could not invest in his freedom.
He was stuck in the machine. Ijust
Yonason Goldson (21:18):
need to work on that one. But there is the
famous monkey trap. Yes, yes.
Where they put the wherever isthe marbles or the whatever the
monkeys want, they put it in, ina big burden where vase or urn
around with a narrow opening andthe monkey reaches in grabs a
Margarita Gurri (21:34):
handful, and then can't pull its hand out.
Right.
Yonason Goldson (21:38):
And the hunter just walks up with a club and
hits it over the head. Itdoesn't run away, because it
can't let go.
Margarita Gurri (21:45):
Well, and life is a monkey trap. I mean, many
ways. It's fascinating, isn'tit? I love that
Yonason Goldson (21:54):
I decided to say grab too much you grab
nothing. Grab, my
Margarita Gurri (21:58):
mother used to say, you can't ride. You can't
ride two horses with one seat.
And she would often say how manyhorses you're working on right
now. You know, just likemultitasking. So let's talk
about multitasking. Two peopleget joy by looking at their
texts and whatever. But theyalso have a tremendous sense of
dread. And they're losing theopportunity to join other people
(22:21):
to create new info. I
Yonason Goldson (22:24):
don't think they're getting any joy from
that, oh, they're just getting adopamine buzz?
Margarita Gurri (22:28):
Well, I think there can be a joy. There's a
habit, but some of it isartificial joy. It's the brain
chemistry.
Yonason Goldson (22:35):
That's and I think it's important to make
that distinction that yes,you're
Margarita Gurri (22:39):
right. It is not true joy. But for some
people if they have a joy in atopic or a community, that's a
little different. But that'smore complicated.
Yonason Goldson (22:51):
So as pleasure distracts us from the lack of
joy in our lives,
Margarita Gurri (22:55):
it absolutely can. And one of the antidotes to
friendship, let's go back to topicking people and deciding is
not letting go of things likeresentment, and dread. That is
one of the monkey traps, or theidea of being right all the
time, or being loved byeveryone, or having everyone
(23:17):
agree with us so so I'm going toask everyone out there, what is
what's in your monkey trap?
What's keeping you in that inthat container? Trap so anyone
can bop you on the head? Andtake a look at it and what are
you going to do about it? That'sthat's my thought about joy and
happiness.
Yonason Goldson (23:36):
That's a great place to leave off and then I'd
like to we can we can use thatas a meme or, or a future
article. What's in your monkeytrip?
Margarita Gurri (23:43):
What's in your monkey chat? Let's do that. But
actually, you and I shouldcreate a TED talk about that in
a keynote. I like it. I thinkit's a good too. Well, as
always, Rabbi it's been fun.
This has been an episode of Therabbi in the shrink. Check us
out on the rabbi in theshrink.com and join us for
another episode. Thank you itmay you find yourself allowing
joy into your
Unknown (24:07):
thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink
every day ethics unscripted tobook Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita
Guri or Rabbi Jonas and Goldsonas speakers or advisors for your
organization, contact them atthe rabbi and the shrink.com.
This has been a doctor Red Shoeproduction
Welcome to another episode of The Rabbi and
the Shrink. This is Dr.
Margarita Gurri, the shrink. Andhere's my favorite rabbi,
Yonason Goldso (00:11):
Yonason Goldson.
Margarita Gurri (00:12):
And today's topic is joy. Oh to joy, I can
just hear it in the background.
The rabbi in our are talkingabout a variety of different
feeling states and blessingsthat can help us on our path,
leading amazing lives ofexcellence and ethical richness
forever. I talk to us about joy,sir,
Yonason Goldson (00:36):
I would love to and this is also on my mind, we
recently recorded a conversationabout fear and love, because
we're approaching High HolidaysRosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur
war. And then those days areimmediately followed by the
festival of Sukkot. So Sukkotlet's call the festival
Tabernacles. And that isdescribed by the sages as a
(00:57):
season of joy. And so it's verymuch on my mind right now in
some minds of Jewish peopleright now. Now in in, in Hebrew
and biblical Hebrew, they'reeight words that all translate
as some form of joy orhappiness, and they all relate
to some form of growth orprogress. And I'll start off by
(01:23):
by sharing two of them. One isthe word Simcha which is
phonetically related to a rootmeaning to bud and another is
the word Sawsan which, which hasthe meaning of blossom. So if
(01:44):
you think about going out toyour garden in the springtime,
and you're looking at yourrosebush, and it's been dormant
through the winter, and then theleaves are starting to come
back, and then you see the firstbud. And you feel this surge of
emotion. This is why you havethe rosebush to produce the
(02:05):
flower. While the flower is notout yet. The bud is potential
joy is the sense of potentialthat is about to be implemented.
So it's about you're about toembark on a journey on a mission
(02:26):
with a purpose. And then as youwork your way through that, it
blossoms. It comes into beingand as the flower blossoms
that's a different manifestationof joy. You're approaching the
fulfillment of, of your desireof your purpose of your mission.
(02:51):
Now, what's interesting is thatwhen that mission or purpose is
fulfilled, there's thismomentary elation of
satisfaction, but then it'soften followed by a kind of a
depression, a letdown. You'rereading a really good book,
you're watching a really goodmovie, you listen to a wonderful
song, you get to the end, andit's over. Now what where do we
(03:12):
go from here? So that's not joy.
You know, we seek satisfaction,but satisfaction is a it's a
double edged sword. Joy is theis being involved in reaching
and attaining a meaningfulpurpose, that is going to give
us satisfaction. And beinginvolved in that process, is
(03:32):
what is ultimately the source ofgenuine happiness and joy.
Margarita Gurri (03:40):
So that goes to the heart of a lot of conflict
in various researchers andphilosophers. And I'll just put
out the questions and then wecan discuss them. Is happiness a
choice? is joy choice. is joyavailable to everyone? Or is it
predicated on good deeds or goodthoughts? The whole idea of
(04:01):
deserving joy and happiness isan issue that has been very
controversial. So let's go backto that, but that potential is
that been available to everyone?
Yonason Goldson (04:18):
It is but not always in the way that we have
come to expect it. In, in inmodern society in Western
society. I think our biggestproblem is that we conflate
happy happiness and pleasure.
Yes, we do. And pleasures,great. Ice creams, wonderful.
sensual pleasures are part oflife and should be enjoyed.
Margarita Gurri (04:47):
Well, I'm getting dark juices on my foot
right now. So yes,
Yonason Goldson (04:51):
I can help with that. But it's not there's
nothing joyful because what'sthe evidence? Same thing we just
talked about. You finish thebowl of ice cream, you finish
the the chocolate bar, you youfinish the central pleasure that
you're you're reveling in. Andwhat do you have? What's left?
Margarita Gurri (05:13):
A great memory and sensation?
Yonason Goldson (05:15):
Yeah, except Except the sensation doesn't
last very long.
Margarita Gurri (05:18):
But you can't recall it.
Yonason Goldson (05:20):
But you can.
But what all that does is itmakes you want more? Yes, it
does, right. And when a personis in a state of joy, they're
gonna be upset, they're gonna bedowns. You know, there's really
there doesn't have to be acontradiction between joy and
pain. Some pains are good,right? I have not personally
(05:45):
been through childbirth. I haveI have I have it on good
authority. It's not the mostpleasant experience.
Margarita Gurri (05:55):
Oh, we wasn't bad. And it was so exciting.
Yonason Goldson (05:59):
Why do women put themselves in a position
especially when they've beenthrough a once? Why do they put
themselves in that position?
Because they know that that painis necessary to bring about
something that is supremelyvaluable. It is so worth it. And
and you know, one of one of ourrecent rabbis Rabbi know,
Weinberg, he said, you askpeople, what's the opposite of
(06:20):
pleasure? They say pain. Butthen you ask them, what's your
greatest pleasure? And they say,your children? What's your
greatest pain your children?
That's the universe universal.
They go hand in hand. It's theit's the struggle. And I think
even there, again, it's amisunderstanding of the word
pleasure, because children arenot necessarily pleasurable. But
(06:43):
they certainly can bring us joy.
Well, and they
Margarita Gurri (06:49):
can be very pleasurable, but nothing's with
kids, because they're growingup, of course, is not pleasure
palace, you know, on a, youknow, 100%, you know? So let's
go back to the issue ofhappiness then, in looking at
some of the research and some ofthe philosophers, that no one
(07:10):
seems to agree on what joy andhappiness is. And one of the
things that you and I weretalking about is that maybe we
don't agree on much, but thatjoy does seem to be blessed with
a bit of grace, that there'ssome sort of spiritual component
too much of joy. And notnecessarily to happiness is that
(07:32):
are we in agreement on that as aas a starting point for this
discussion? Or nowhere?
Yonason Goldson (07:37):
Can you develop that idea a little bit more for
me, for sure.
Margarita Gurri (07:40):
So some of the more controversial
Unknown (07:45):
readings that I've
Margarita Gurri (07:47):
that I've come across, and people with whom
I've spoken, take it to adifferent level that I don't
agree with that. That joy iscomes from God and Heaven only
and happiness is secular. Itsday to day and one's internal
one's external. I don't agreethat my point of view is that I
believe, for me, joy, could be ahappiness that's imbued with
(08:12):
grace, some spiritual extras,supersize element of connection,
of pleasure, of ecstasy andwhatever. And that's how I see
it. Now. I don't know if youagree with that. What do you
think, Rabbi?
Yonason Goldson (08:31):
I think there's definitely something to that.
You know, I had a guest on my onmy ethics panel, JC Glick. He's
a former Army Ranger LieutenantColonel, we should have him on
the podcast. Oh, yeah, let's doa really, really remarkable
fella. And I we got into thistopic, and I explained my
formulation of joy and happinessas a function of purpose. And he
(08:56):
pushed back. And he said hethinks that's wrong, because he
said he thinks that people canhave misguided purpose. And he
felt that joy was really afunction of connection. Yes,
that's the grace. I agreeexactly. And and I said that I
didn't disagree with him, thatwhen I say that joy is a
function of purpose, one has tohave a worthy purpose. And then
(09:17):
one is connected to the goal,the ideal, which could be God.
And at the same time, one isconnected to all those who are
engaged in the same purpose,which is what we talked about in
the previous segment about love,that sense of connection through
(09:41):
common purpose. So I don't seethat there is an either or
there. Certainly, people canmake themselves very unhappy by
pursuing the wrong goals and thewrong ideals and engaging in in
in purposes that are notbeneficial to them or to
(10:02):
mankind.
Margarita Gurri (10:03):
And yet that is part of happiness, realizing
that you're going down the wrongpath, and getting excited about
the failure or the frustrationand then switching gears. So
even in that misguided effort, Ithink there's a lot of happiness
enjoy to find your, your mainpurpose or where you need to be
(10:26):
to achieve the goals that youthought were good, maybe rewrite
the goals, or rewrite the pathto those stated
Yonason Goldson (10:32):
goals. Now that requires tremendous emotional
maturity. You know, we don'tlike being wrong. You know what
my my college professor Maxbirdie said, I don't understand
why people complain about beingdisillusioned. I would like to
be relieved of my illusions. Andeven as a college student, I I
push back and I said, Well,yeah, but that's fine. Who wants
(10:57):
that? are illusions we like,yeah,
Margarita Gurri (11:01):
no, I think I think many of us die die on that
hill defending an illusion thatcan no longer be defended. I
mean,
Yonason Goldson (11:09):
if you've ever had the unpleasant experience of
being an argument, and suddenlyrealizing in the midst of the
heated debate, you realizeyou're wrong.
Margarita Gurri (11:16):
Oh, anyway, double down and start arguing
harder. Anyone with childrenknows the experience of
discovering that they're wrong,as they tell us all the time.
It's kind of interesting. Solet's talk about happiness for a
second. You know, I came to thiscountry as a refugee. And I
learned something very early on,when we were in Flagler Street
(11:37):
in Miami. Not the bestneighborhood in the world, we
were in a little house with anorange sectional couch, I mean,
just when we first arrived, nextto the cemetery, and behind the
firehouse, if that tells you it.
And what I learned is that wechoose happiness, because many
other refugees came. And many ofthem brought their, their
(11:59):
service, is that the right wayyou're saying with them, and
they brought their pain, theirtheir grief with them. And
instead of embracing thefreedom, the United States, my
parents taught me happiness,because they would say I weird,
my mother would say, We're inAmerica now. We are free. Of
course, we're happy. We arefree. We don't have to talk
(12:22):
about that. That man. She wouldnever say Castro that man. We
don't have to talk about him. Weare Americans now. And we are
grateful. So they chose to nottell me they were wealthy in
Cuba. They didn't ever talkabout what they lost, ever. I
never heard them oncecomplaining. Now maybe they did
to my older siblings, as my twinsister and I were the two
youngest by quite a few years.
(12:45):
But I never heard it. In all theyears I knew them. I never heard
them complain, not once. No, shewould complain about our
manners. I have been. We've beenin America too long. These
children have bad manners, youknow that? That kind of thing.
But I learned that happiness wasa choice. It's not only a state
of mind. But it's in that sense,a state of grace. You choose
(13:06):
your gratitude. You choosepeople that you hang with, you
choose the news, you watch. Ifit's too negative, it's not
going to make you happy. Ithappiness, I believe, is a
choice. Do you agree or disagreewith that? Steve?
Yonason Goldson (13:20):
I think that's absolutely right. And I think
that that that really sums up somuch of the popular discontent
of our age, that sense ofentitlement, if I'm entitled,
that I really have nothing towork for. And so I have no
purpose and why are so many richpeople on Happy wire. Why do
(13:42):
vital to successful people. Imean, I heard this story a while
back, and I wish I couldremember the name of the artist.
Because I heard her tell it onin an interview and it was just
so compelling to what she was alittle girl. And she she was at
her first school play. Shewanted to be in the play. And so
the next day, she tried out shegot in the play. And then when
she got the play well now shewanted to have a starring role.
(14:05):
And she got the next time shegot the starring role. And then
she wanted to sing a solo. Shecan sing a song. And then she
wanted to be a performanceartist. And she became she
wanted to record a song and shedid and she wanted to record an
album and she did and she wantedit to be successful. It wasn't
she wanted to go gold and itdid. And then the next one went
platinum or the next one doubleplatinum. And then she attempted
(14:28):
suicide because she was in herearly 20s. And what else is
there? There was nothing else tostrive for. And here's somebody
who got everything she wanted.
Perhaps too easy, perhaps toosoon. And was left with now
(14:48):
what's the rest of my life goingto be about? It was such a sad
story.
Margarita Gurri (14:58):
When see I see as psychologists have seen that
so many times. And I think weforget that achievement.
Whatever the metric is, whetherit's money or certain levels of
success, in our striving forthat we can neglect our self
love, but we can also neglectour relationships. Because
(15:18):
without someone to share itwith, without cultivating the
love of good people all aroundus, life is indeed empty.
Yonason Goldson (15:29):
And to go back to your point about grace, when
King David says in the Psalmsserve God with joy, which
suggests that if you're notjoyful, you're not serving God.
And if you are serving God, thenjoy should be the natural
outcome of that that connection,that purpose, exactly we've been
(15:52):
talking about. And it's not justGod, it's, it's the divinity of
every human being, yes, findrelationships,
Margarita Gurri (16:02):
including ourselves. We have to treat each
other as if we are dear. Youknow, it's interesting. And so
many religions, cultures andsuperstitions dictate that love
that happiness comes fromsuffering, that we must suffer.
And I certainly don't agree withthat. If we suffer, we can use
(16:23):
that and as, as a calling cardto, to dive into more joy and
love and whatever. But I do notbelieve that suffering is a
necessary element to happiness.
Enjoy sacrifices, though. Well,yeah, I don't this is my there's
my take on it. I don't believethat we can have joy and
(16:45):
happiness without sacrifice. Andlet me explain. If I want to
have a great relationship withsomeone, I have to sacrifice
pettiness grudges, I have tosacrifice. Let's say someone's
married, and they see someonethat might be cuter or sexier.
Will you sacrifice? Because yousay no, because you work on the
(17:06):
relationship that you hold dear.
So I do not believe that we canhave everything. I think we get
happiness by choosing the thingsthat matter. And by being
grateful for those things wehave, and back to the stoics a
motor Fathi. If we have a badthing happen, find a way to love
(17:29):
it and look for the grace there.
And there is happiness and joywithin all events that feel good
or feel bad. Without I thinksome sacrifice, not pain and
suffering. I believe you cannothave joy.
Yonason Goldson (17:46):
I think that's a good try. Mic drop moment.
Doctor and I made this dough onyou rabbinic ordination. Oh,
well, thank you. I was I was ata virtual lecture yesterday last
night, and this was exactly therabbi's point, that we have to
let go pettiness, if we want toattach ourselves to more noble
(18:11):
ideals, I would I would tweak ita little bit and say, you know,
in the in the temple inJerusalem, they would bring
offerings of animals on thealtar. And that's often
translated into English assacrifices. But that's not
really the word that's used. Theword for offering shares a route
(18:34):
with a word for for intimacy.
And what we talked about beforeof giving, we talked about love
investment. Investing, isinvesting really a sacrifice.
You're giving up something now,but I'm not really giving it up.
I'm simply channeling it in adirection. I used to tell my
(18:56):
students that when I was young,I had two goals in life. I
wanted to be a trapeze artist inthe circus I wanted to be and I
wanted to be a sumo wrestler.
Now, of course, I never reallywanted either of things, things
blinded by the making the point,you know, I could choose one or
the other if I really wanted it,but I couldn't do both. Now,
(19:17):
different body types. Andmaturity is recognizing you
can't have everything. And ifyou try to have everything I
mean, you know, we knowdilettantes we've got 27
different degrees and neverworked. Because they just can't
narrow down your people whocan't form intimate
relationships. Because, well ifI commit to this person, that
(19:39):
means I can't play the fieldanymore. I can't all those other
people out there.
Margarita Gurri (19:43):
Well, but that's when they're thinking of
love is external to them. Youhave to have self love first.
Love yourself, then it's easierto make those choices.
Yonason Goldson (19:53):
But it's also that focus that investment and
yes, the inevitable a I'm goingto cut out other options when I
make one choice, but to think ofas a sacrifice is perhaps not so
helpful. Because then it get thesense of I'm looking at what I'm
(20:15):
giving up. Well, I have to giveup something to get anything.
Margarita Gurri (20:21):
But it is a sacrifice. But for the for the
greater good. It is a sacrifice.
But it's also for my good. Yes,it's also Yes. Also for your
good, I agree.
Yonason Goldson (20:33):
You don't have to think of it as a sacrifice.
Margarita Gurri (20:36):
Well, that's because you're you're mature.
But for people who are greedy orscared, they have to accept any
sacrifice, if you've chosenWell, begins to be a blessing.
It feels like a blessing.
Yonason Goldson (20:48):
But you'd have to work through it. And that's
why I prefer to call itinvestments. But Well, I
Margarita Gurri (20:51):
agree it's an investment because but because I
deal with so many people who areholding on one of my favorite
images in like Homer Simpson iswhen he was trying to get the
coke from the machine, the thesoda machine, and he had his
hand in there, but he couldn'tget his hand down. But he had to
let go of the coke. So hecouldn't make a choice. He he
(21:14):
could not invest in his freedom.
He was stuck in the machine. Ijust
Yonason Goldson (21:18):
need to work on that one. But there is the
famous monkey trap. Yes, yes.
Where they put the wherever isthe marbles or the whatever the
monkeys want, they put it in, ina big burden where vase or urn
around with a narrow opening andthe monkey reaches in grabs a
Margarita Gurri (21:34):
handful, and then can't pull its hand out.
Right.
Yonason Goldson (21:38):
And the hunter just walks up with a club and
hits it over the head. Itdoesn't run away, because it
can't let go.
Margarita Gurri (21:45):
Well, and life is a monkey trap. I mean, many
ways. It's fascinating, isn'tit? I love that
Yonason Goldson (21:54):
I decided to say grab too much you grab
nothing. Grab, my
Margarita Gurri (21:58):
mother used to say, you can't ride. You can't
ride two horses with one seat.
And she would often say how manyhorses you're working on right
now. You know, just likemultitasking. So let's talk
about multitasking. Two peopleget joy by looking at their
texts and whatever. But theyalso have a tremendous sense of
dread. And they're losing theopportunity to join other people
(22:21):
to create new info. I
Yonason Goldson (22:24):
don't think they're getting any joy from
that, oh, they're just getting adopamine buzz?
Margarita Gurri (22:28):
Well, I think there can be a joy. There's a
habit, but some of it isartificial joy. It's the brain
chemistry.
Yonason Goldson (22:35):
That's and I think it's important to make
that distinction that yes,you're
Margarita Gurri (22:39):
right. It is not true joy. But for some
people if they have a joy in atopic or a community, that's a
little different. But that'smore complicated.
Yonason Goldson (22:51):
So as pleasure distracts us from the lack of
joy in our lives,
Margarita Gurri (22:55):
it absolutely can. And one of the antidotes to
friendship, let's go back to topicking people and deciding is
not letting go of things likeresentment, and dread. That is
one of the monkey traps, or theidea of being right all the
time, or being loved byeveryone, or having everyone
(23:17):
agree with us so so I'm going toask everyone out there, what is
what's in your monkey trap?
What's keeping you in that inthat container? Trap so anyone
can bop you on the head? Andtake a look at it and what are
you going to do about it? That'sthat's my thought about joy and
happiness.
Yonason Goldson (23:36):
That's a great place to leave off and then I'd
like to we can we can use thatas a meme or, or a future
article. What's in your monkeytrip?
Margarita Gurri (23:43):
What's in your monkey chat? Let's do that. But
actually, you and I shouldcreate a TED talk about that in
a keynote. I like it. I thinkit's a good too. Well, as
always, Rabbi it's been fun.
This has been an episode of Therabbi in the shrink. Check us
out on the rabbi in theshrink.com and join us for
another episode. Thank you itmay you find yourself allowing
joy into your
Unknown (24:07):
thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink
every day ethics unscripted tobook Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita
Guri or Rabbi Jonas and Goldsonas speakers or advisors for your
organization, contact them atthe rabbi and the shrink.com.
This has been a doctor Red Shoeproduction
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