December 15, 2022 • 40 mins
Does our proclivity to manipulation disprove free will?
If human beings have free will, do animals?
Is surrendering to a Higher Power an act of free will, or the abdication of free will?
These are some of the questions we address in this episode of The Rabbi and the Shrink.
Bullet points:
Can the paradox of free will and predestination be resolved?
Some biologists assert that we are merely products of our genetics and environments, which program us how to respond.
We have to live an examined life in order to make ourselves aware of the forces at play on us.
If our minds are lazy, why do some of us like to think, study, and debate?
If the body is lazy, why are so many people at the gym?
The wisdom of Flip Wilson: "The devil made me do it."
No, he didn't.
The word Satan means "adversary." We have a moral sparring partner that trains us to be stronger.
Free will takes place on the battlefront. Struggle is the evidence that free will exists.
Mindfulness model: the daily struggle with temptation.
Awareness and discernment
The struggle to choose good
The struggle to resist evil
We need trusted advisors to give us a reality check when we ask or impose and intervention when we don't.
We have to be grateful for challenges and criticism to protect us from ethical fading.
Three steps to right action according to The Path of the Just:
In times of calm, evaluate objectively what is right and what is wrong.
In times of decision, apply our conclusions to our decision-making process.
After the fact, intuit whether our choice felt right.
Meeting emotion with logic inevitably fails.
What made the Framers different from politicians today?
Our temperament, our family, and our friends largely influence our political outlooks. How do we avoid being slaves to circumstance?
You learn the most from those with whom you disagree.
Constructive disagreement: conservatives and liberals need each other.
The best professor I ever had.
The wisdom of Sister Rita.
Don't react, but respond -- which is the root of responsibility.
What kind of person do you want to become?
The word of the day: azimuth
A bearing from where I am to where I want to get
We need to know and see our destination, or else we'll travel in circles.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margarita Gurri (00:04):
Welcome to The Rabbi and the Shrink. This is
Dr. Margarita Gurri, the shrink.
And my favorite Rabbi,
Yonason Goldson (00:10):
Yonason Goldson.
Margarita Gurri (00:11):
Today we're doing something different. We're
talking about freewill andaccountability. The good rabbi,
and I've had the privilege oftalking with some amazing minds
and hearts. And we keep comingback to the some of the excuses
people give themselves. Andmaybe even we give ourselves
from time to time about what isreally up to us and what isn't.
(00:33):
And are we held accountable. SoRabbi, let's start with you. I
always love your stories andyour point of view on things.
Yonason Goldson (00:41):
What do you think about freewill? Well, it's
topic came up very often when Itaught high school. I'm sure it
did, particularly since I taughtJewish Studies and theology, and
it is a cornerstone of Jewishbelief. And I would I would try
to get my students riled up bytelling them that their their
(01:03):
pet dog has no free will. Andthey would often get miffed.
Yes, he does. Yes, she does.
Because if I give them this kindof a biscuit, and that kind of a
biscuit, they'll always takethis kind of this, they're
choosing which biscuit theywant. And I would explain that's
not a choice. That's an internalprogramming, one of them's more
(01:25):
attractive. And so they, they gofor the one that's more
attractive, because they areprogrammed to do that there's no
inner, they're not looking atthe box asking themselves, Well,
which one has more calories? Andis it worth the meat to pass up
the one that tastes better forthe marten, nutritious one that
doesn't go through a dog's mind.
(01:50):
It's simply what is programmedto respond to. And human beings
are different. We can makeevaluations, we can make our pro
and con list, we can evaluatethe choices that are available
to us. And we can make selfindulgent choices, or we can
make informed choices that areinterested in our long term best
(02:14):
interest. And ultimately, andwe'll get into this more, it's
the struggle between thoseoptions. That is really the
indication of genuine freedom.
Does that I'm sure that has apsychological component that
you'd you'd hone in on as well.
Margarita Gurri (02:33):
Yeah, it does.
And I liked that. I also, youdid share, the part of the story
that I loved the most was thepart of that story where you
tell them their dog doesn't lovethem.
Yonason Goldson (02:43):
You know, I don't want to be too
controversial.
Margarita Gurri (02:47):
I love that you rile your students up to incite
them to thinking
Yonason Goldson (02:53):
I'm talking about than any of the hot topics
today, talking about people'spets. I mean, people are so
emotional.
Margarita Gurri (02:59):
I know. I know.
And honestly, I had to laugh,because that's something my big
brother might have told me isyour dog doesn't love you. I
mean, just just to rile me. So Ithink we're not trying to say
anything just to rile people up.
I just love that. He said thatand gave, and everyone respected
him up to listen to what is thisman saying? Now, psychologically
(03:21):
speaking, the idea of free will,gets in, into my mind, because a
lot of people want to surrender.
They want to do a trust fall. Ihave free will. But my free will
is to surrender to God's will.
And so it's all up to God, it'sin God's hands, or the universe,
(03:42):
or whoever is there. So I'mgoing to do a trust falling
foul. And it's not up to me,because I've already made a high
order decision. That is notmine, not me, you know, and I
give up. I think that that is adangerous word. I don't think I
know that that's a dangerouschoice to make. And as a
dangerous point of view.
Yonason Goldson (04:03):
It actually comes from a very deep and
challenging the illogicaldilemma. The conflict or paradox
between freewill andpredestination? If God has a
plan for the world, and how canI possibly change it? How can I
possibly be in control if Godknows the future, and that's
(04:24):
what I'm going to do? How can Ihave any control over my
actions? Now, this isn't reallythe forum to get into that. But
but there are answers to thosequestions. And as you say, the
abdication of freewill. It'skind of interesting because
you're saying the person whosays Well, I'm giving up my
(04:46):
freewill. On the other side ofthe spectrum. You have the
biologists who will say there isno free will or just a packet of
neurons and genetics and andmaybe experience So those that
have shaped us, and we merelyreact to our environment and the
stimuli, according to our priorprogramming, we're really no
(05:09):
different from the dog waschoosing the biscuit that's
attractive to it. Either way,this is an abdication of
responsibility. If I'm notreally choosing, I'm not really
responsible for my actions. Andthat creates a whole different
problem. How can we? How can wehave laws? How can we appeal
system?
Margarita Gurri (05:27):
And how can you make any plans? I mean, one of
my favorite conversations aboutfreewill and its limits came
from a discussion I had with ahigh school student that was a
magician. And we got to talkingabout freewill in a class I was
doing a drug and alcohol class.
And we got to talk about are youpre programmed in your brain to
be an alcoholic to be a drugaddict. So if I take some of
(05:51):
alcohol and someone else takesalcohol, that person may become
an alcoholic or not because oftheir brain. So we got into
esoteric discussions and braintopics. And we were exploring
all the possibilities. And thenthe student comes up and says, I
believe that since I'm amagician, I know about the
brain, the brain wants to belazy, it wants to do what's
(06:14):
easy. And if I know what thebrain wants, I can get people to
see things the way I want themto see it. So if I have cards in
front of me, and I say hand meone, I know right handed people
will hand me probably the thirdcard, facing them, and left
handed the second one becauseit's the easiest. I mean, I'd
never thought of that my mindwas blown with that. And then he
(06:36):
went on and on to talk about allsorts of things of freewill,
including them where we ended upas a group deciding that one of
the issues that limits freewill,for those of us who believe in
free will, and I do, we'relimited by our awareness of how
we are influenced, and howinfluenceable we are, by things
(06:58):
such as our programming, our dogbrain, our human brain, bias,
visual cues, our mood, ourfears, our pre programming
culturally, or whatever. Do weever really see everything
that's there. So our idea offreewill then requires those of
us who hold on to the fact we doindeed have freewill. And we're
(07:23):
going to use it to make theworld a better place for
ourselves and our loved ones inthe, in the greater world is
that we have to live an examinedlife, which is what you and I
are talking about all the timewith ethics, you have to ask
yourself, How, if at all, I ambeing influenced? What are those
influences? What is the impactof that influence? And if we
(07:45):
don't ask those questions, we'renot actually operating
Yonason Goldson (07:51):
from true free will. And I think that's where
that's where freewill reallycomes into play. And And up next
buzzword of the day ismindfulness. Exactly what it
means to ask ourselves thosequestions. You know, yes, we all
have unconscious biases, we allhave them. How do we deal with
them? It's by making themconscious. By asking ourselves,
(08:14):
what's actually motivating mehere? What are what's lying
beneath the surface isinfluencing my actions because
the more conscious of them Ibecome, the less influence they
have over me. And thewillingness to take a look at
ourselves, you know, you usethis example of the mind is
lazy. That's true. The body islazy, too. So why are there so
(08:37):
many people at the gym? I mean,who wants to be sweating and
huffing and puffing and beingsore and picking up big pieces
of iron and putting them downagain, running in place and
going nowhere? Why would anyrational person do this, because
we understand that we are makingour bodies healthier. Yes, by
(08:59):
engaging in this type ofbehavior. And the more we do it,
the easier it gets after a whileyou move up to strong to heavier
weights, and you turn theresistance up on the elliptical
or the treadmill because you'vegotten stronger and the brain
does exactly the same way. Whenwe use it, it gets stronger.
When we don't use it. It getsweaker and flabbier and so we
(09:23):
can abdicate freewill simply bybeing lazy. And eventually we
will become slaves to our ownhabits. You know that there's
theologically people question.
How could God harden Pharaoh'sheart? If you read Scripture
carefully, the first fiveplagues, Pharaoh hardens his own
(09:44):
heart. Added at some point CADsystem you've chosen the path
you want to go. I'm now going tomake sure you take it all the
way to the end. Fairhead choicein the beginning, you didn't
have to do the things he did. Hemade those choices. And
(10:06):
eventually he had to live withthem. And it's the same way for
us.
Margarita Gurri (10:11):
And unfortunately, taking that into
a more modern world, a lot oftimes we say what you gave me no
choice. You know, you may be myfavorite is when my two
daughters were young. One ofthem said, It's not my fault,
she made me hit her. And Ialways laugh about that. But
it's really not funny when it'sgrownups doing it. And so the
(10:34):
whole issue is to be graciousenough to know that we are
influenced, of course, we'reinfluenced, I have an identical
twin sister, you have brought upa topic of identical twins. I
have an identical twin. We weredifferent from birth. So the
people that say your geneticsdetermine your choices? Well,
(10:55):
obviously, some of our geneticsdetermined some of our choices,
we're gonna like these foodsmore than others because of our
taste buds and whatever youknow, and how our tummy feels
when we eat them. Is it forallergic or not? There's so many
influences that we may considerto be free will if we just float
with it. So free wills, not apreference. freewill goes beyond
(11:17):
preference, to really examiningthings to make choices that are
hard to make. I don't think FreeWill lives in an easy place.
It's not a flamingo float on abeautiful pool on a nice sunny
day.
Yonason Goldson (11:33):
No, in fact, it's a battle. And I'm gonna get
to that in a moment. But you didme. You reminded me of when I
was growing up. One of myfavorite comments was Wilson.
Yes, I remember. And youremember one of his famous lines
is the devil made
Margarita Gurri (11:46):
me do it.
Right. Right.
Yonason Goldson (11:49):
I think a former president said something
very similar in one of hismemoirs.
Margarita Gurri (11:55):
You know, it's the devil doesn't
Yonason Goldson (11:57):
make us do anything. The devil tempts us.
In fact, in Hebrew, the wordsatan, pronounced soften in
Hebrew, it means an adversary anopponent. And what's the point
of having an opponent if you'retraining to be a boxer, you spar
with an opponent. If you'relearning, martial arts, you spar
(12:18):
with anybody it makes you that'show you learn to become a
master. Right? And temptation isan opportunity for us to summon
our better angels. So yeah, andif we do, we're choosing to
resist temptation. If we don't,we are choosing to give into
temptation. When I say it's abattle, one of the classic
(12:40):
discussions of this in Jewishthought is by Rabbi Eliyahu
Dessler. And he says that lifeis like a battlefield. There's
conquered territory. And thisterritory we're trying to
conquer. And the conqueredterritory are the habits that
we've developed. And theunconquered territory are the
(13:04):
skills, the aspirations thatwe're trying to achieve, and to
and to and to acquire, and thatsome things are going to be out
of reach right now. Because I'msimply not there yet. And other
things are going to be relegatedto the past. I don't have to
struggle, getting out of bed ontime in the morning, I did at
(13:26):
one point in my life. It's not astruggle anymore, because I have
conditioned myself, I set thealarm, it rings, I get up,
there's no struggle involvedthere. But there was at one
time, so what's changed, I'vechanged. Because the struggle
happens on the Battlefront,wherever I am right now.
(13:48):
Wherever my, my, I'm poisedevenly between what my impulses
compel me to do, and what myconvictions tell me I should do.
As soon as you have an evenmatch there, that's where free
will takes place in the signthat is free will is that it's a
struggle. When we feel ourselvesstruggling, that's the proof of
(14:10):
our freewill. And if we pushourselves that point is going to
change. It's going to moveforward. We don't push
ourselves, it's going to slipbackwards.
Margarita Gurri (14:20):
And I have developed a model for looking at
mindfulness, which for merepresents the daily struggle
with with that temptation orwith the conflict. It's about
reexamining and I believethere's three times in our
(14:41):
struggle where we're really moresusceptible to making gains or
to losing ground. So if you'retalking about a battlefield, and
it's when we're totally aware,and in this headspace where
we're living an examined life,and it's and we're with other
people who do it and we'vecreated this environment, you
We're trying to be aware ofourselves and others and the
(15:02):
environments in which we findourselves that kind of
discerning, sentient look. Andthen the other two times is when
we're struggling, either we'restruggling to do good, or we're
struggling because we want to dobad, either of those two
struggles. And I'm putting in asimple way just to make it
easier. So whether you believein the God or not, or you
(15:23):
believe in the devil or not,obviously, you're, you're an
orthodox man, I am a Catholicwoman. So obviously, we are two
people of faith. But many of thepeople we know do not believe in
God or the devil or angels.
That's a separate issue. Becausethe mindfulness is something
that if we decide we have thecourage to take a look at that
(15:44):
and have partners in our lives,like I know, I can call you
anytime and say, Hey, I'mstruggling with this dilemma.
Could you help me think itthrough, and I'm going to tell
me what to do. But you help methink it through and I have, I
have my twin sister, I can talkto it anytime. And her husband
and my friends, the wetters, mychildren, my children always
have an opinion about what I'mdoing. So I can always ask them,
and even my grandchildren, nowthey're teaching me with their
(16:07):
eye rolls. Alright, so there'salways someone to help you leave
on a more examined life.
Yonason Goldson (16:14):
That's a great point. Because what that that
very successful game show waswhere you have a lifeline. Yes,
that's the lifeline. And that's,that's very real device. Because
if I feel that I'm struggling,maybe I'm right, in the moment,
you know, it's so easy now thatwe have cell phones. I could
(16:35):
call it I could call you up. Icall it one of my trusted
advisors and say, you know, I'mreally struggling like this, I'm
in the heat of the moment, youknow, help me get a reality
check.
Margarita Gurri (16:44):
And maybe you and I are struggling, but don't
know it, maybe we've had someethical fading. And we've gotten
used to something that's, youknow, grappling with the gray
list successfully. That's whenour friends or the people that
our advisors that we've chosenwill call us and say, I'm
worried about how you'rethinking about this, or I'm
worried that you're thinkingabout doing X, Y, or Z. Let's
(17:08):
talk about ya
Yonason Goldson (17:11):
know, I posted a video this week, one of my
ethics videos. And in thecomments, somebody challenged me
that my content was not ethical.
Margarita Gurri (17:20):
Really, what was the point?
Yonason Goldson (17:23):
That I was presenting one side of the
argument and not the other?
Margarita Gurri (17:27):
Okay, which I was. And how is that?
Yonason Goldson (17:31):
Well, because as we've been through many
times, you know, till you seeboth sides of the issue, you
don't have a clear picture. Iwas doing it as satire. But I'm
willing to entertain thepossibility that maybe I've
crossed a line, maybe I, I needto reconsider whether this is an
appropriate format. And I'veactually scheduled a panel
(17:54):
discussion.
Margarita Gurri (17:57):
Great to see, I think that when, especially when
we're in the world of ethics, Ithink sometimes we know where
our hearts and souls are, andthen our minds and so we assume
other people know it. And we maynot represent ourselves in a way
that looks more balanced. And Ilike when I get criticism for my
(18:17):
point of view, because I'mthinking, this is how someone's
looking at it, what have Imissed? How can I continue to
present this in a way that ismore compelling, that reaches
more more people in a way thatthey'll ask themselves rather
than just refute what I'msaying, right? But I think it's
important for us, all of us tosay, you know, what have I
(18:38):
missed?
Yonason Goldson (18:40):
Because we all make mistakes, we all miss
calculate. You mentioned that.
You have this. You want to callit describe it your three
different criteria. It's
Margarita Gurri (18:52):
called Big Red Couch, right? It's my
mindfulness model.
Yonason Goldson (18:56):
Yeah. So I spend every morning after my
morning prayers, I spent a fewminutes reading, studying on
self development and selfimprovement. And literally just
this morning, not in preparationfor this class, but it just
happened. That's where I wasn'tthe text. Classic work called
the path of the just where theauthor talks about three steps
(19:18):
to take in making the rightchoices. Oh, I'd love a link of
that. And well, it's verysimple. The first is to
objectively evaluate what'swhat's good, what's evil, what's
right, what's wrong, what'sethical, what's not ethical, in
a in a sort of universalisticsense? Not when we're in the
(19:39):
heat of the moment, but just tocalibrate our moral compass,
then when we find ourselves atthe time of decision making, to
take those insights and thoseunderstandings that we've
acquired and apply them to thespecific situation. And then
afterwards, How to feel to sensewas how did that feel I made a
(20:06):
logical choice that it was theright thing to do. Sometimes it
still feels wrong after thefact. And by having this sort of
process of developing ethicalprinciples, reasoning out
ethical choices, and thenintuiting, the choices
(20:29):
afterwards, we go through lifelike that, we're going to be
raising the bar consistently,throughout the course of our
lives.
Margarita Gurri (20:38):
I agree, and you've addressed and one of my
other pet peeves is that peoplethink well, that feels right. So
it feels right. And it goes withmy instinct, it must be right,
as well. No, not necessarily. Itmight not. It might be it might
just be this is what I'm wishingis right. So I think that
(20:59):
examining things, even if weknow in our hearts, they're true
and real and right, and just andunkind. I think we have to re
examine. Now, people look, hearthis all the time of being
biased, because we both comefrom a religious point of view.
And you're going to be biasedabout some things because you're
an orthodox man who has certainfaith. And you believe certain
(21:24):
things, whether it's about menand women, or garden, and
behavior, whatever, and I havecertain faith. So we're going to
be accused of prejudice. Andmaybe it is prejudice. Maybe it
is bias. But it is a point ofview. So my point is, we're
never going to get everyone tosay you're not being biased. The
point is living an examinedlife, and being able to have
(21:49):
conversations with people whoare annoyed with us, for our
point of view, and learn fromthem. And examine, have I missed
this? What can I include? Somepeople are just not logical. And
so helping them think thingsthrough may not be a successful
endeavor. Some people'sreadiness is delayed or absent,
(22:13):
and maybe later, they'll get it.
Maybe they won't, I don't know.
Yonason Goldson (22:17):
And it's one of my great frustrations in life.
That when you engage somebodywho's thinking, I shouldn't say
that way. Who is speakingemotionally? Yes. The worst
thing you can do is speak tothem logically.
Margarita Gurri (22:37):
Yeah, or point out that they're being
illogical, which feelspatronizing and yucky. I mean,
Yonason Goldson (22:43):
they just doubled down.
Margarita Gurri (22:44):
Yeah, learning the skills needed to invite
logic into a conversation is achallenge. And I think all of us
must do that. What am I
Yonason Goldson (22:55):
to say? That is a I should make it politically
right. Human beings arepsychological, not logical
creatures.
Margarita Gurri (23:07):
Yeah, that's true, actually. But I think that
we can aim to master logicalarguments. Maybe we never make
an illogical decision, becausemaybe it's complicated, but
mastering the arguments andhaving cogent points and, and
updating our opinions. And wecan just say that, one of the
(23:29):
things that you and I've talkedabout that I'll speak for
myself, but I believe you agreewith and I was very disappointed
with some of the debates thatwe've had in the political
arena. Because I think that ifwe have bright minds, who love
our country, can't we listen toeach other and speak in such a
way that civil and sharesinformation rather than tearing
(23:51):
other people down? Or slams themin the cancel culture? I'm
taking my bass home and youcan't play with me anymore. I
think that I think that you andI are trying to call people to
action to do a better job ofreally listening and
understanding ourselves andothers.
Yonason Goldson (24:11):
Yeah. And then, you know, it's, it's, it's
interesting when you when youstudy the beginnings of this
country. And I mean, it'sextraordinary that the
brilliance of the minds of themen who started the United
States, I mean, it's it's almostlike being I would say, God put
all these people together at onetime when plans to create
(24:32):
something that had never beenconceived or, or enacted before,
but they were still humanbeings. And they were
passionate. And they were notalways civil, the way we might
hope they would be. They werenot always ethical or moral.
Know, the way we might hope theywould be. But they were. They
were operating from points ofview that were so soundly
(24:57):
reasoned and That's somethingthat we're not seeing a lot of
today. No, not consistently ofpeople holding positions because
they feel right. Yes. And youknow, there's another point
that's worth making here. Andthis is an idea that I've just
(25:18):
entered interdistrict recently.
There, there are apparently fivecategories of personalities, you
probably know this better than Ido, like openness and
agreeableness and orderliness.
And a person who is strong inorderliness is more likely to be
politically conservative. And aperson who is more prone more
(25:40):
naturally open, is going to bemore inclined to be more liberal
politically. So then if I havethat predisposition, and then I
live in a home where my parentshappen to be of that same mind
and reinforce it, and then I go,and I find peers that I'm
attractive, attracted to whohave the same predisposition,
(26:01):
then you go to a university,where I encountered more of the
same? Well, I haven't reallychosen my political instincts.
Nope. I've simply been led in adirection by a combination of
nature and environment. But thenit goes back to your point. How
(26:22):
mindful Are ya, because as soonas I make myself aware that I
have these predispositions, andI make a conscious decision to
try to understand the otherside. At least now I can restore
some kind of balance offreewill. But if I don't do
that, then I really am a slaveto my impulses in my
(26:42):
environment,
Margarita Gurri (26:43):
you are, and it is not the kind of listening
where I'm listening to you. So Ican then refute the point,
right? It's brutal listening,which takes a lot of patience
and courage, because some peoplejust have ideas that we think
are so wrong and crazy, and I'mnot listening to that. But
trying to understand that hasmade my life richer. It doesn't
(27:08):
mean that we're going tobefriend those people, maybe we
will, maybe we'll come to ameeting of the minds. But they
do have something to teach us.
My, my brother used to say,listen to the people who you
disagree with my brother, my bigbrother, Joe, and you will learn
more about yourself than myfather used to say, go to
(27:29):
meetings. And hopefully, you'llfind someone that you disagree
with what they say totally, andyou don't like how they're
presenting it. And you're goingto have the best education
possible. Because you'll knowthat's not how you want to come
across, or how you want toteach. So that take it as a
blessing really, the people whoare out there, and I'm sure when
(27:53):
I'm wrong, I'm teaching peoplethings to
Yonason Goldson (27:58):
do. And you know, the Yale professor Stephen
L. Carter has written somewonderful books, integrity and
civility. And he introduced meto the concept of constructive
disagreement. And, you know,when you put it in the political
context, conservatives andliberals need each other.
Because if you go back to thepolitical philosophies, who say
(28:19):
Edmund Burke, who was claimed byboth the liberals and the
conservatives, as one of thefathers of their movement, you
know, conservative ism is isbasically a respect for
tradition. And, and convention,and liberalism is basically a
desire to progress and improve.
And possibly,
Margarita Gurri (28:45):
sometimes liberalism is just tearing down
to this sometimes,
Yonason Goldson (28:50):
but you are right. And sometimes
conservative ism is justreactionary ism and
calcifications, right, andthat's why they need each other.
Yes, I agree. If we don't engageeach other, then we will retreat
into those stereotypicalextremes that make us dangerous,
(29:11):
that make compromise and findingcommon ground the impossible.
But if we engage, and we keepeach other honest, we can chart
a course that's going to beeverybody's benefit. Yeah,
Margarita Gurri (29:24):
you and I just did a podcast with David Hanson
us who, whose mission is toteach critical thinking he's got
Critical Thinking project. And Ifound that fascinating because
you and I can talk about allthis forever. But the whole
point is, how do we get thisidea into the education system?
(29:48):
one conversation at a time oneclassroom at a time when
district at a time when statedat a time, so that we're all
elevating which is one of ourgoals to elevate critical
thinking? We We elevate theexpectations and the ability to,
and the desire to really thinkthings through. And I find that
(30:08):
exciting that we know people whoare doing concrete things that
will make the world a betterplace.
Yonason Goldson (30:14):
I mean, I think about the best professors I had
in college and there weren't alot of, I'm sorry to say, but
there were a few. And andprobably the most influential
was a professor hadn'tShakespeare. And Shakespeare is
a wonderful topic of study,because there's so much couched
(30:39):
in his narrative in his drama.
And his use of language isunlike any other writer. And you
can just go deeper and deeperand deeper, and this professor
did not stand in front of theclass and pontificate. He
challenged us to explain whatwas going on. And he encouraged
us to argue with him good if hedid if we didn't see his way of,
(31:06):
of interpreting it. And I neverhad such a stimulating class in
my college career.
Margarita Gurri (31:17):
Well, I'm, I'm glad that you had that. I mean,
I think so many people. And itwas smart that he did it on
something that wasn't modernday. Because then you're not
cancelling each other out.
You're not something that waswritten in the past, and you're
learning how to think andexpress and, and ask questions.
I think I
Yonason Goldson (31:36):
became a teacher. That was the style that
I tried to use in the classroom.
And for the most part, mystudents really found my classes
valuable.
Margarita Gurri (31:45):
Did you tell him that you learn from him?
Does he know?
Yonason Goldson (31:49):
I've tried to reach him. I was never able to
get ahold of him after I had
Margarita Gurri (31:53):
two people that were very influential. Dr.
Burgess, who is my psychologyprofessor, and I did not want to
be a psychologist. I was deadset against it. Many people in
my family are psychiatrists,psychologists, and no, I didn't
want to do one. And I got stuckwith a psych one on one class.
She was brilliant. She askedquestions. She had us observe
(32:15):
people, she had us come up withtheir own answers, and then
taught us about the classics. Itwas exciting. I was on the edge
of my seat. It was like thatkind of book that you read. And
you can't wait to get to theend. I mean, she was and I don't
even remember her first name.
But I tried to reach her tothank her. And the other one was
a nun sister, Paul Joseph. Nowshe system, read a bomb. Back
(32:37):
then the nuns took men's name.
And she when people were beingmean to me, because I was a
Cuban refugee, and they werebeing harsh. And I started being
harsh, she would ask me, Is thatwho you want to become? Why are
they? I have a question for you.
Why are they doing this to you?
(33:00):
What are they thinking andfeeling? What do they need? What
is your job? And I had to laughthat she didn't scold me for
wanting to hit him. I mean, theywere hitting me and yelling and
stuff. She didn't scold me forthat she just challenged me to
be better than them and not letthem set the tone. So part of
freewill is having the skillsand the power to not just react
(33:22):
to people, but to really thinkthrough how we're going to
think, feel and act in responseto any situation.
Yonason Goldson (33:30):
It's pointed out to me not long ago, that
response is the is the root ofresponsibility, which is Yeah,
but you know, you just saidsomething that I think is really
critical, this conversation thatshe asked you, whom do you want
to become? Yes. And, you know, Ithink it all starts and maybe
(33:52):
ends right there. I think sotoday, if if I have a vision of
myself and I'm willing to putthe effort into becoming that I
mean, we do it with careers. Wedo it in the gym. Certainly we
(34:13):
should do it in terms of thequality of who we are. And and
the vision that we have for thetype of person I want to be I
want to be the kind of personthat other people are inspired
by that other people want tolearn from the UK, I want to be
around I want to attract peopleof quality and that means I have
(34:34):
to become a person of quality.
And so with this story, you havereally set up the word of the
day which is Azmuth
Margarita Gurri (34:49):
Okay, say that again, please?
Yonason Goldson (34:50):
Azmuth Okay.
All right. Azmuth is an arc ofthe horizon measured clockwise
from Southpointe In astronomyare from North Point navigation.
But essentially what it is, itis a bearing from where I am, to
where I want to get. So if I'mif I'm in gunnery, if I'm a man
(35:13):
and the big, the big, thehowitzers, right, so I need an
Asmus, to be able to plot wherethe shells going to land. If I'm
navigating my way throughunknown territory, I have to
know where my destination is,you know, maybe you've heard me
say, this is one of my favoritestudies I've ever heard. They
(35:33):
blindfolded people. And theyasked them to walk a straight
line 100% of the time, theyended up going in circles. And
they didn't just limit it towalking. They asked people to
(35:53):
swim the straight line, they putthe link, go karts, nessuno
drive a straight line, we alwaysend up circling back to where we
started. And they tried allsorts of and they could never
figure out a pattern. It's notlike if you're right handed
people go right, left handed,and now there are no patterns.
So how do you stay on track?
(36:16):
Very simple. You keep your eyefocused on a destination point.
And if we know where we want toend up, then we can we can plot
that Asmath we can plot thatcourse, we may have to take
detours along the way. But we weneed the resolution to want to
get there. And that is our freewill conserve us.
Margarita Gurri (36:40):
What a great word. What a lot a great word.
And I think then we're circlingback to the issue that many
people believe that free willshould be so natural and it
should flow. But you and I areasserting that it is the
struggle. That is not only proofof freewill, but the essential
(37:04):
requirement to allow freewill tohave its most positive impact.
Yonason Goldson (37:12):
Yeah, my what my rabbi said, if we're there's
no friction, there's nomovement. We need something to
push off against.
Margarita Gurri (37:20):
Yeah, and that doesn't mean we have to pick
fights on purpose, the fights inthere, that conflicts are there
internally and externally. Imean, I think we, we have to
really give ourselves a time. Soyou and I both do something in
the morning that I don't knowwhere you got the habit of
examining things and doing someprofessional development. I got
it from Sister Rita Bom. Everymorning, she says, as you're
(37:44):
brushing your teeth, think aboutyour day, think about who you
want to be. Think aboutyesterday and what did you learn
from the mistakes you made fromthe conflicts you had? Look at
the things that were great andthe things that weren't great
and examine them because that'swhat where you're being guided
(38:06):
and then I have cleaner teeth sothere you go and that's
professional development withouta computer but then you know as
grown ups now we you know youand I both sit to the computer
and do some professionaldevelopment just about every day
not only out of curiosity but Ido believe that if if I don't
(38:26):
keep asking questions I'm goingto begin to drink my own Kool
Aid and think that I'm beyondthat and i None of us are ever
beyond missing the boat.
Yonason Goldson (38:36):
Yeah, that's a really good expression to use
here the drinking the Kool Aid Irepeat if anybody remembers you
know, Jim Jones, the cult leaderand Deanna gave his followers
kool aid that laced with I'm notsure what kind of poison and I
think 900 or so have themessentially committed suicide
(38:56):
whether knowingly orunknowingly. So the the
expression drinking the Kool Aidmeans that you simply do what
those around you are doing. Andwe call it groupthink.
Margarita Gurri (39:09):
Or even your own kool aid that right and
create your own dogma, your ownwhatever. And
Yonason Goldson (39:16):
then once we do that, we've abdicated our
Margarita Gurri (39:18):
freewill. We have we have, but freewill it
comes at the price of some painand the price of of some
creative and courageousthinking.
Yonason Goldson (39:31):
Like anything valuable in life.
Margarita Gurri (39:34):
Not the truth as my brother used to say it is
if it's easy, why would we wantit? You know, that was good.
Rabbi, this has been fun. Weneed to do this more often.
Yonason Goldson (39:46):
I think we will. Yeah,
Margarita Gurri (39:47):
we'll pick different topics and we will
talk about him. So this is hasbeen an episode on freewill, the
rabbi in the shrink, and checkout some of our other episodes,
and we'll see you done. Thankyou.
Unknown (40:01):
Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink
everyday ethics unscripted tobook Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita
Guri or Rabbi Jonas and Goldsonas speakers or advisors for your
organization, contact them atthe rabbi and the shrink.com.
This has been a doctor Red Shoeproduction
Welcome to The Rabbi and the Shrink. This is
Dr. Margarita Gurri, the shrink.
And my favorite Rabbi,
Yonason Goldson (00:10):
Yonason Goldson.
Margarita Gurri (00:11):
Today we're doing something different. We're
talking about freewill andaccountability. The good rabbi,
and I've had the privilege oftalking with some amazing minds
and hearts. And we keep comingback to the some of the excuses
people give themselves. Andmaybe even we give ourselves
from time to time about what isreally up to us and what isn't.
(00:33):
And are we held accountable. SoRabbi, let's start with you. I
always love your stories andyour point of view on things.
Yonason Goldson (00:41):
What do you think about freewill? Well, it's
topic came up very often when Itaught high school. I'm sure it
did, particularly since I taughtJewish Studies and theology, and
it is a cornerstone of Jewishbelief. And I would I would try
to get my students riled up bytelling them that their their
(01:03):
pet dog has no free will. Andthey would often get miffed.
Yes, he does. Yes, she does.
Because if I give them this kindof a biscuit, and that kind of a
biscuit, they'll always takethis kind of this, they're
choosing which biscuit theywant. And I would explain that's
not a choice. That's an internalprogramming, one of them's more
(01:25):
attractive. And so they, they gofor the one that's more
attractive, because they areprogrammed to do that there's no
inner, they're not looking atthe box asking themselves, Well,
which one has more calories? Andis it worth the meat to pass up
the one that tastes better forthe marten, nutritious one that
doesn't go through a dog's mind.
(01:50):
It's simply what is programmedto respond to. And human beings
are different. We can makeevaluations, we can make our pro
and con list, we can evaluatethe choices that are available
to us. And we can make selfindulgent choices, or we can
make informed choices that areinterested in our long term best
(02:14):
interest. And ultimately, andwe'll get into this more, it's
the struggle between thoseoptions. That is really the
indication of genuine freedom.
Does that I'm sure that has apsychological component that
you'd you'd hone in on as well.
Margarita Gurri (02:33):
Yeah, it does.
And I liked that. I also, youdid share, the part of the story
that I loved the most was thepart of that story where you
tell them their dog doesn't lovethem.
Yonason Goldson (02:43):
You know, I don't want to be too
controversial.
Margarita Gurri (02:47):
I love that you rile your students up to incite
them to thinking
Yonason Goldson (02:53):
I'm talking about than any of the hot topics
today, talking about people'spets. I mean, people are so
emotional.
Margarita Gurri (02:59):
I know. I know.
And honestly, I had to laugh,because that's something my big
brother might have told me isyour dog doesn't love you. I
mean, just just to rile me. So Ithink we're not trying to say
anything just to rile people up.
I just love that. He said thatand gave, and everyone respected
him up to listen to what is thisman saying? Now, psychologically
(03:21):
speaking, the idea of free will,gets in, into my mind, because a
lot of people want to surrender.
They want to do a trust fall. Ihave free will. But my free will
is to surrender to God's will.
And so it's all up to God, it'sin God's hands, or the universe,
(03:42):
or whoever is there. So I'mgoing to do a trust falling
foul. And it's not up to me,because I've already made a high
order decision. That is notmine, not me, you know, and I
give up. I think that that is adangerous word. I don't think I
know that that's a dangerouschoice to make. And as a
dangerous point of view.
Yonason Goldson (04:03):
It actually comes from a very deep and
challenging the illogicaldilemma. The conflict or paradox
between freewill andpredestination? If God has a
plan for the world, and how canI possibly change it? How can I
possibly be in control if Godknows the future, and that's
(04:24):
what I'm going to do? How can Ihave any control over my
actions? Now, this isn't reallythe forum to get into that. But
but there are answers to thosequestions. And as you say, the
abdication of freewill. It'skind of interesting because
you're saying the person whosays Well, I'm giving up my
(04:46):
freewill. On the other side ofthe spectrum. You have the
biologists who will say there isno free will or just a packet of
neurons and genetics and andmaybe experience So those that
have shaped us, and we merelyreact to our environment and the
stimuli, according to our priorprogramming, we're really no
(05:09):
different from the dog waschoosing the biscuit that's
attractive to it. Either way,this is an abdication of
responsibility. If I'm notreally choosing, I'm not really
responsible for my actions. Andthat creates a whole different
problem. How can we? How can wehave laws? How can we appeal
system?
Margarita Gurri (05:27):
And how can you make any plans? I mean, one of
my favorite conversations aboutfreewill and its limits came
from a discussion I had with ahigh school student that was a
magician. And we got to talkingabout freewill in a class I was
doing a drug and alcohol class.
And we got to talk about are youpre programmed in your brain to
be an alcoholic to be a drugaddict. So if I take some of
(05:51):
alcohol and someone else takesalcohol, that person may become
an alcoholic or not because oftheir brain. So we got into
esoteric discussions and braintopics. And we were exploring
all the possibilities. And thenthe student comes up and says, I
believe that since I'm amagician, I know about the
brain, the brain wants to belazy, it wants to do what's
(06:14):
easy. And if I know what thebrain wants, I can get people to
see things the way I want themto see it. So if I have cards in
front of me, and I say hand meone, I know right handed people
will hand me probably the thirdcard, facing them, and left
handed the second one becauseit's the easiest. I mean, I'd
never thought of that my mindwas blown with that. And then he
(06:36):
went on and on to talk about allsorts of things of freewill,
including them where we ended upas a group deciding that one of
the issues that limits freewill,for those of us who believe in
free will, and I do, we'relimited by our awareness of how
we are influenced, and howinfluenceable we are, by things
(06:58):
such as our programming, our dogbrain, our human brain, bias,
visual cues, our mood, ourfears, our pre programming
culturally, or whatever. Do weever really see everything
that's there. So our idea offreewill then requires those of
us who hold on to the fact we doindeed have freewill. And we're
(07:23):
going to use it to make theworld a better place for
ourselves and our loved ones inthe, in the greater world is
that we have to live an examinedlife, which is what you and I
are talking about all the timewith ethics, you have to ask
yourself, How, if at all, I ambeing influenced? What are those
influences? What is the impactof that influence? And if we
(07:45):
don't ask those questions, we'renot actually operating
Yonason Goldson (07:51):
from true free will. And I think that's where
that's where freewill reallycomes into play. And And up next
buzzword of the day ismindfulness. Exactly what it
means to ask ourselves thosequestions. You know, yes, we all
have unconscious biases, we allhave them. How do we deal with
them? It's by making themconscious. By asking ourselves,
(08:14):
what's actually motivating mehere? What are what's lying
beneath the surface isinfluencing my actions because
the more conscious of them Ibecome, the less influence they
have over me. And thewillingness to take a look at
ourselves, you know, you usethis example of the mind is
lazy. That's true. The body islazy, too. So why are there so
(08:37):
many people at the gym? I mean,who wants to be sweating and
huffing and puffing and beingsore and picking up big pieces
of iron and putting them downagain, running in place and
going nowhere? Why would anyrational person do this, because
we understand that we are makingour bodies healthier. Yes, by
(08:59):
engaging in this type ofbehavior. And the more we do it,
the easier it gets after a whileyou move up to strong to heavier
weights, and you turn theresistance up on the elliptical
or the treadmill because you'vegotten stronger and the brain
does exactly the same way. Whenwe use it, it gets stronger.
When we don't use it. It getsweaker and flabbier and so we
(09:23):
can abdicate freewill simply bybeing lazy. And eventually we
will become slaves to our ownhabits. You know that there's
theologically people question.
How could God harden Pharaoh'sheart? If you read Scripture
carefully, the first fiveplagues, Pharaoh hardens his own
(09:44):
heart. Added at some point CADsystem you've chosen the path
you want to go. I'm now going tomake sure you take it all the
way to the end. Fairhead choicein the beginning, you didn't
have to do the things he did. Hemade those choices. And
(10:06):
eventually he had to live withthem. And it's the same way for
us.
Margarita Gurri (10:11):
And unfortunately, taking that into
a more modern world, a lot oftimes we say what you gave me no
choice. You know, you may be myfavorite is when my two
daughters were young. One ofthem said, It's not my fault,
she made me hit her. And Ialways laugh about that. But
it's really not funny when it'sgrownups doing it. And so the
(10:34):
whole issue is to be graciousenough to know that we are
influenced, of course, we'reinfluenced, I have an identical
twin sister, you have brought upa topic of identical twins. I
have an identical twin. We weredifferent from birth. So the
people that say your geneticsdetermine your choices? Well,
(10:55):
obviously, some of our geneticsdetermined some of our choices,
we're gonna like these foodsmore than others because of our
taste buds and whatever youknow, and how our tummy feels
when we eat them. Is it forallergic or not? There's so many
influences that we may considerto be free will if we just float
with it. So free wills, not apreference. freewill goes beyond
(11:17):
preference, to really examiningthings to make choices that are
hard to make. I don't think FreeWill lives in an easy place.
It's not a flamingo float on abeautiful pool on a nice sunny
day.
Yonason Goldson (11:33):
No, in fact, it's a battle. And I'm gonna get
to that in a moment. But you didme. You reminded me of when I
was growing up. One of myfavorite comments was Wilson.
Yes, I remember. And youremember one of his famous lines
is the devil made
Margarita Gurri (11:46):
me do it.
Right. Right.
Yonason Goldson (11:49):
I think a former president said something
very similar in one of hismemoirs.
Margarita Gurri (11:55):
You know, it's the devil doesn't
Yonason Goldson (11:57):
make us do anything. The devil tempts us.
In fact, in Hebrew, the wordsatan, pronounced soften in
Hebrew, it means an adversary anopponent. And what's the point
of having an opponent if you'retraining to be a boxer, you spar
with an opponent. If you'relearning, martial arts, you spar
(12:18):
with anybody it makes you that'show you learn to become a
master. Right? And temptation isan opportunity for us to summon
our better angels. So yeah, andif we do, we're choosing to
resist temptation. If we don't,we are choosing to give into
temptation. When I say it's abattle, one of the classic
(12:40):
discussions of this in Jewishthought is by Rabbi Eliyahu
Dessler. And he says that lifeis like a battlefield. There's
conquered territory. And thisterritory we're trying to
conquer. And the conqueredterritory are the habits that
we've developed. And theunconquered territory are the
(13:04):
skills, the aspirations thatwe're trying to achieve, and to
and to and to acquire, and thatsome things are going to be out
of reach right now. Because I'msimply not there yet. And other
things are going to be relegatedto the past. I don't have to
struggle, getting out of bed ontime in the morning, I did at
(13:26):
one point in my life. It's not astruggle anymore, because I have
conditioned myself, I set thealarm, it rings, I get up,
there's no struggle involvedthere. But there was at one
time, so what's changed, I'vechanged. Because the struggle
happens on the Battlefront,wherever I am right now.
(13:48):
Wherever my, my, I'm poisedevenly between what my impulses
compel me to do, and what myconvictions tell me I should do.
As soon as you have an evenmatch there, that's where free
will takes place in the signthat is free will is that it's a
struggle. When we feel ourselvesstruggling, that's the proof of
(14:10):
our freewill. And if we pushourselves that point is going to
change. It's going to moveforward. We don't push
ourselves, it's going to slipbackwards.
Margarita Gurri (14:20):
And I have developed a model for looking at
mindfulness, which for merepresents the daily struggle
with with that temptation orwith the conflict. It's about
reexamining and I believethere's three times in our
(14:41):
struggle where we're really moresusceptible to making gains or
to losing ground. So if you'retalking about a battlefield, and
it's when we're totally aware,and in this headspace where
we're living an examined life,and it's and we're with other
people who do it and we'vecreated this environment, you
We're trying to be aware ofourselves and others and the
(15:02):
environments in which we findourselves that kind of
discerning, sentient look. Andthen the other two times is when
we're struggling, either we'restruggling to do good, or we're
struggling because we want to dobad, either of those two
struggles. And I'm putting in asimple way just to make it
easier. So whether you believein the God or not, or you
(15:23):
believe in the devil or not,obviously, you're, you're an
orthodox man, I am a Catholicwoman. So obviously, we are two
people of faith. But many of thepeople we know do not believe in
God or the devil or angels.
That's a separate issue. Becausethe mindfulness is something
that if we decide we have thecourage to take a look at that
(15:44):
and have partners in our lives,like I know, I can call you
anytime and say, Hey, I'mstruggling with this dilemma.
Could you help me think itthrough, and I'm going to tell
me what to do. But you help methink it through and I have, I
have my twin sister, I can talkto it anytime. And her husband
and my friends, the wetters, mychildren, my children always
have an opinion about what I'mdoing. So I can always ask them,
and even my grandchildren, nowthey're teaching me with their
(16:07):
eye rolls. Alright, so there'salways someone to help you leave
on a more examined life.
Yonason Goldson (16:14):
That's a great point. Because what that that
very successful game show waswhere you have a lifeline. Yes,
that's the lifeline. And that's,that's very real device. Because
if I feel that I'm struggling,maybe I'm right, in the moment,
you know, it's so easy now thatwe have cell phones. I could
(16:35):
call it I could call you up. Icall it one of my trusted
advisors and say, you know, I'mreally struggling like this, I'm
in the heat of the moment, youknow, help me get a reality
check.
Margarita Gurri (16:44):
And maybe you and I are struggling, but don't
know it, maybe we've had someethical fading. And we've gotten
used to something that's, youknow, grappling with the gray
list successfully. That's whenour friends or the people that
our advisors that we've chosenwill call us and say, I'm
worried about how you'rethinking about this, or I'm
worried that you're thinkingabout doing X, Y, or Z. Let's
(17:08):
talk about ya
Yonason Goldson (17:11):
know, I posted a video this week, one of my
ethics videos. And in thecomments, somebody challenged me
that my content was not ethical.
Margarita Gurri (17:20):
Really, what was the point?
Yonason Goldson (17:23):
That I was presenting one side of the
argument and not the other?
Margarita Gurri (17:27):
Okay, which I was. And how is that?
Yonason Goldson (17:31):
Well, because as we've been through many
times, you know, till you seeboth sides of the issue, you
don't have a clear picture. Iwas doing it as satire. But I'm
willing to entertain thepossibility that maybe I've
crossed a line, maybe I, I needto reconsider whether this is an
appropriate format. And I'veactually scheduled a panel
(17:54):
discussion.
Margarita Gurri (17:57):
Great to see, I think that when, especially when
we're in the world of ethics, Ithink sometimes we know where
our hearts and souls are, andthen our minds and so we assume
other people know it. And we maynot represent ourselves in a way
that looks more balanced. And Ilike when I get criticism for my
(18:17):
point of view, because I'mthinking, this is how someone's
looking at it, what have Imissed? How can I continue to
present this in a way that ismore compelling, that reaches
more more people in a way thatthey'll ask themselves rather
than just refute what I'msaying, right? But I think it's
important for us, all of us tosay, you know, what have I
(18:38):
missed?
Yonason Goldson (18:40):
Because we all make mistakes, we all miss
calculate. You mentioned that.
You have this. You want to callit describe it your three
different criteria. It's
Margarita Gurri (18:52):
called Big Red Couch, right? It's my
mindfulness model.
Yonason Goldson (18:56):
Yeah. So I spend every morning after my
morning prayers, I spent a fewminutes reading, studying on
self development and selfimprovement. And literally just
this morning, not in preparationfor this class, but it just
happened. That's where I wasn'tthe text. Classic work called
the path of the just where theauthor talks about three steps
(19:18):
to take in making the rightchoices. Oh, I'd love a link of
that. And well, it's verysimple. The first is to
objectively evaluate what'swhat's good, what's evil, what's
right, what's wrong, what'sethical, what's not ethical, in
a in a sort of universalisticsense? Not when we're in the
(19:39):
heat of the moment, but just tocalibrate our moral compass,
then when we find ourselves atthe time of decision making, to
take those insights and thoseunderstandings that we've
acquired and apply them to thespecific situation. And then
afterwards, How to feel to sensewas how did that feel I made a
(20:06):
logical choice that it was theright thing to do. Sometimes it
still feels wrong after thefact. And by having this sort of
process of developing ethicalprinciples, reasoning out
ethical choices, and thenintuiting, the choices
(20:29):
afterwards, we go through lifelike that, we're going to be
raising the bar consistently,throughout the course of our
lives.
Margarita Gurri (20:38):
I agree, and you've addressed and one of my
other pet peeves is that peoplethink well, that feels right. So
it feels right. And it goes withmy instinct, it must be right,
as well. No, not necessarily. Itmight not. It might be it might
just be this is what I'm wishingis right. So I think that
(20:59):
examining things, even if weknow in our hearts, they're true
and real and right, and just andunkind. I think we have to re
examine. Now, people look, hearthis all the time of being
biased, because we both comefrom a religious point of view.
And you're going to be biasedabout some things because you're
an orthodox man who has certainfaith. And you believe certain
(21:24):
things, whether it's about menand women, or garden, and
behavior, whatever, and I havecertain faith. So we're going to
be accused of prejudice. Andmaybe it is prejudice. Maybe it
is bias. But it is a point ofview. So my point is, we're
never going to get everyone tosay you're not being biased. The
point is living an examinedlife, and being able to have
(21:49):
conversations with people whoare annoyed with us, for our
point of view, and learn fromthem. And examine, have I missed
this? What can I include? Somepeople are just not logical. And
so helping them think thingsthrough may not be a successful
endeavor. Some people'sreadiness is delayed or absent,
(22:13):
and maybe later, they'll get it.
Maybe they won't, I don't know.
Yonason Goldson (22:17):
And it's one of my great frustrations in life.
That when you engage somebodywho's thinking, I shouldn't say
that way. Who is speakingemotionally? Yes. The worst
thing you can do is speak tothem logically.
Margarita Gurri (22:37):
Yeah, or point out that they're being
illogical, which feelspatronizing and yucky. I mean,
Yonason Goldson (22:43):
they just doubled down.
Margarita Gurri (22:44):
Yeah, learning the skills needed to invite
logic into a conversation is achallenge. And I think all of us
must do that. What am I
Yonason Goldson (22:55):
to say? That is a I should make it politically
right. Human beings arepsychological, not logical
creatures.
Margarita Gurri (23:07):
Yeah, that's true, actually. But I think that
we can aim to master logicalarguments. Maybe we never make
an illogical decision, becausemaybe it's complicated, but
mastering the arguments andhaving cogent points and, and
updating our opinions. And wecan just say that, one of the
(23:29):
things that you and I've talkedabout that I'll speak for
myself, but I believe you agreewith and I was very disappointed
with some of the debates thatwe've had in the political
arena. Because I think that ifwe have bright minds, who love
our country, can't we listen toeach other and speak in such a
way that civil and sharesinformation rather than tearing
(23:51):
other people down? Or slams themin the cancel culture? I'm
taking my bass home and youcan't play with me anymore. I
think that I think that you andI are trying to call people to
action to do a better job ofreally listening and
understanding ourselves andothers.
Yonason Goldson (24:11):
Yeah. And then, you know, it's, it's, it's
interesting when you when youstudy the beginnings of this
country. And I mean, it'sextraordinary that the
brilliance of the minds of themen who started the United
States, I mean, it's it's almostlike being I would say, God put
all these people together at onetime when plans to create
(24:32):
something that had never beenconceived or, or enacted before,
but they were still humanbeings. And they were
passionate. And they were notalways civil, the way we might
hope they would be. They werenot always ethical or moral.
Know, the way we might hope theywould be. But they were. They
were operating from points ofview that were so soundly
(24:57):
reasoned and That's somethingthat we're not seeing a lot of
today. No, not consistently ofpeople holding positions because
they feel right. Yes. And youknow, there's another point
that's worth making here. Andthis is an idea that I've just
(25:18):
entered interdistrict recently.
There, there are apparently fivecategories of personalities, you
probably know this better than Ido, like openness and
agreeableness and orderliness.
And a person who is strong inorderliness is more likely to be
politically conservative. And aperson who is more prone more
(25:40):
naturally open, is going to bemore inclined to be more liberal
politically. So then if I havethat predisposition, and then I
live in a home where my parentshappen to be of that same mind
and reinforce it, and then I go,and I find peers that I'm
attractive, attracted to whohave the same predisposition,
(26:01):
then you go to a university,where I encountered more of the
same? Well, I haven't reallychosen my political instincts.
Nope. I've simply been led in adirection by a combination of
nature and environment. But thenit goes back to your point. How
(26:22):
mindful Are ya, because as soonas I make myself aware that I
have these predispositions, andI make a conscious decision to
try to understand the otherside. At least now I can restore
some kind of balance offreewill. But if I don't do
that, then I really am a slaveto my impulses in my
(26:42):
environment,
Margarita Gurri (26:43):
you are, and it is not the kind of listening
where I'm listening to you. So Ican then refute the point,
right? It's brutal listening,which takes a lot of patience
and courage, because some peoplejust have ideas that we think
are so wrong and crazy, and I'mnot listening to that. But
trying to understand that hasmade my life richer. It doesn't
(27:08):
mean that we're going tobefriend those people, maybe we
will, maybe we'll come to ameeting of the minds. But they
do have something to teach us.
My, my brother used to say,listen to the people who you
disagree with my brother, my bigbrother, Joe, and you will learn
more about yourself than myfather used to say, go to
(27:29):
meetings. And hopefully, you'llfind someone that you disagree
with what they say totally, andyou don't like how they're
presenting it. And you're goingto have the best education
possible. Because you'll knowthat's not how you want to come
across, or how you want toteach. So that take it as a
blessing really, the people whoare out there, and I'm sure when
(27:53):
I'm wrong, I'm teaching peoplethings to
Yonason Goldson (27:58):
do. And you know, the Yale professor Stephen
L. Carter has written somewonderful books, integrity and
civility. And he introduced meto the concept of constructive
disagreement. And, you know,when you put it in the political
context, conservatives andliberals need each other.
Because if you go back to thepolitical philosophies, who say
(28:19):
Edmund Burke, who was claimed byboth the liberals and the
conservatives, as one of thefathers of their movement, you
know, conservative ism is isbasically a respect for
tradition. And, and convention,and liberalism is basically a
desire to progress and improve.
And possibly,
Margarita Gurri (28:45):
sometimes liberalism is just tearing down
to this sometimes,
Yonason Goldson (28:50):
but you are right. And sometimes
conservative ism is justreactionary ism and
calcifications, right, andthat's why they need each other.
Yes, I agree. If we don't engageeach other, then we will retreat
into those stereotypicalextremes that make us dangerous,
(29:11):
that make compromise and findingcommon ground the impossible.
But if we engage, and we keepeach other honest, we can chart
a course that's going to beeverybody's benefit. Yeah,
Margarita Gurri (29:24):
you and I just did a podcast with David Hanson
us who, whose mission is toteach critical thinking he's got
Critical Thinking project. And Ifound that fascinating because
you and I can talk about allthis forever. But the whole
point is, how do we get thisidea into the education system?
(29:48):
one conversation at a time oneclassroom at a time when
district at a time when statedat a time, so that we're all
elevating which is one of ourgoals to elevate critical
thinking? We We elevate theexpectations and the ability to,
and the desire to really thinkthings through. And I find that
(30:08):
exciting that we know people whoare doing concrete things that
will make the world a betterplace.
Yonason Goldson (30:14):
I mean, I think about the best professors I had
in college and there weren't alot of, I'm sorry to say, but
there were a few. And andprobably the most influential
was a professor hadn'tShakespeare. And Shakespeare is
a wonderful topic of study,because there's so much couched
(30:39):
in his narrative in his drama.
And his use of language isunlike any other writer. And you
can just go deeper and deeperand deeper, and this professor
did not stand in front of theclass and pontificate. He
challenged us to explain whatwas going on. And he encouraged
us to argue with him good if hedid if we didn't see his way of,
(31:06):
of interpreting it. And I neverhad such a stimulating class in
my college career.
Margarita Gurri (31:17):
Well, I'm, I'm glad that you had that. I mean,
I think so many people. And itwas smart that he did it on
something that wasn't modernday. Because then you're not
cancelling each other out.
You're not something that waswritten in the past, and you're
learning how to think andexpress and, and ask questions.
I think I
Yonason Goldson (31:36):
became a teacher. That was the style that
I tried to use in the classroom.
And for the most part, mystudents really found my classes
valuable.
Margarita Gurri (31:45):
Did you tell him that you learn from him?
Does he know?
Yonason Goldson (31:49):
I've tried to reach him. I was never able to
get ahold of him after I had
Margarita Gurri (31:53):
two people that were very influential. Dr.
Burgess, who is my psychologyprofessor, and I did not want to
be a psychologist. I was deadset against it. Many people in
my family are psychiatrists,psychologists, and no, I didn't
want to do one. And I got stuckwith a psych one on one class.
She was brilliant. She askedquestions. She had us observe
(32:15):
people, she had us come up withtheir own answers, and then
taught us about the classics. Itwas exciting. I was on the edge
of my seat. It was like thatkind of book that you read. And
you can't wait to get to theend. I mean, she was and I don't
even remember her first name.
But I tried to reach her tothank her. And the other one was
a nun sister, Paul Joseph. Nowshe system, read a bomb. Back
(32:37):
then the nuns took men's name.
And she when people were beingmean to me, because I was a
Cuban refugee, and they werebeing harsh. And I started being
harsh, she would ask me, Is thatwho you want to become? Why are
they? I have a question for you.
Why are they doing this to you?
(33:00):
What are they thinking andfeeling? What do they need? What
is your job? And I had to laughthat she didn't scold me for
wanting to hit him. I mean, theywere hitting me and yelling and
stuff. She didn't scold me forthat she just challenged me to
be better than them and not letthem set the tone. So part of
freewill is having the skillsand the power to not just react
(33:22):
to people, but to really thinkthrough how we're going to
think, feel and act in responseto any situation.
Yonason Goldson (33:30):
It's pointed out to me not long ago, that
response is the is the root ofresponsibility, which is Yeah,
but you know, you just saidsomething that I think is really
critical, this conversation thatshe asked you, whom do you want
to become? Yes. And, you know, Ithink it all starts and maybe
(33:52):
ends right there. I think sotoday, if if I have a vision of
myself and I'm willing to putthe effort into becoming that I
mean, we do it with careers. Wedo it in the gym. Certainly we
(34:13):
should do it in terms of thequality of who we are. And and
the vision that we have for thetype of person I want to be I
want to be the kind of personthat other people are inspired
by that other people want tolearn from the UK, I want to be
around I want to attract peopleof quality and that means I have
(34:34):
to become a person of quality.
And so with this story, you havereally set up the word of the
day which is Azmuth
Margarita Gurri (34:49):
Okay, say that again, please?
Yonason Goldson (34:50):
Azmuth Okay.
All right. Azmuth is an arc ofthe horizon measured clockwise
from Southpointe In astronomyare from North Point navigation.
But essentially what it is, itis a bearing from where I am, to
where I want to get. So if I'mif I'm in gunnery, if I'm a man
(35:13):
and the big, the big, thehowitzers, right, so I need an
Asmus, to be able to plot wherethe shells going to land. If I'm
navigating my way throughunknown territory, I have to
know where my destination is,you know, maybe you've heard me
say, this is one of my favoritestudies I've ever heard. They
(35:33):
blindfolded people. And theyasked them to walk a straight
line 100% of the time, theyended up going in circles. And
they didn't just limit it towalking. They asked people to
(35:53):
swim the straight line, they putthe link, go karts, nessuno
drive a straight line, we alwaysend up circling back to where we
started. And they tried allsorts of and they could never
figure out a pattern. It's notlike if you're right handed
people go right, left handed,and now there are no patterns.
So how do you stay on track?
(36:16):
Very simple. You keep your eyefocused on a destination point.
And if we know where we want toend up, then we can we can plot
that Asmath we can plot thatcourse, we may have to take
detours along the way. But we weneed the resolution to want to
get there. And that is our freewill conserve us.
Margarita Gurri (36:40):
What a great word. What a lot a great word.
And I think then we're circlingback to the issue that many
people believe that free willshould be so natural and it
should flow. But you and I areasserting that it is the
struggle. That is not only proofof freewill, but the essential
(37:04):
requirement to allow freewill tohave its most positive impact.
Yonason Goldson (37:12):
Yeah, my what my rabbi said, if we're there's
no friction, there's nomovement. We need something to
push off against.
Margarita Gurri (37:20):
Yeah, and that doesn't mean we have to pick
fights on purpose, the fights inthere, that conflicts are there
internally and externally. Imean, I think we, we have to
really give ourselves a time. Soyou and I both do something in
the morning that I don't knowwhere you got the habit of
examining things and doing someprofessional development. I got
it from Sister Rita Bom. Everymorning, she says, as you're
(37:44):
brushing your teeth, think aboutyour day, think about who you
want to be. Think aboutyesterday and what did you learn
from the mistakes you made fromthe conflicts you had? Look at
the things that were great andthe things that weren't great
and examine them because that'swhat where you're being guided
(38:06):
and then I have cleaner teeth sothere you go and that's
professional development withouta computer but then you know as
grown ups now we you know youand I both sit to the computer
and do some professionaldevelopment just about every day
not only out of curiosity but Ido believe that if if I don't
(38:26):
keep asking questions I'm goingto begin to drink my own Kool
Aid and think that I'm beyondthat and i None of us are ever
beyond missing the boat.
Yonason Goldson (38:36):
Yeah, that's a really good expression to use
here the drinking the Kool Aid Irepeat if anybody remembers you
know, Jim Jones, the cult leaderand Deanna gave his followers
kool aid that laced with I'm notsure what kind of poison and I
think 900 or so have themessentially committed suicide
(38:56):
whether knowingly orunknowingly. So the the
expression drinking the Kool Aidmeans that you simply do what
those around you are doing. Andwe call it groupthink.
Margarita Gurri (39:09):
Or even your own kool aid that right and
create your own dogma, your ownwhatever. And
Yonason Goldson (39:16):
then once we do that, we've abdicated our
Margarita Gurri (39:18):
freewill. We have we have, but freewill it
comes at the price of some painand the price of of some
creative and courageousthinking.
Yonason Goldson (39:31):
Like anything valuable in life.
Margarita Gurri (39:34):
Not the truth as my brother used to say it is
if it's easy, why would we wantit? You know, that was good.
Rabbi, this has been fun. Weneed to do this more often.
Yonason Goldson (39:46):
I think we will. Yeah,
Margarita Gurri (39:47):
we'll pick different topics and we will
talk about him. So this is hasbeen an episode on freewill, the
rabbi in the shrink, and checkout some of our other episodes,
and we'll see you done. Thankyou.
Unknown (40:01):
Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink
everyday ethics unscripted tobook Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita
Guri or Rabbi Jonas and Goldsonas speakers or advisors for your
organization, contact them atthe rabbi and the shrink.com.
This has been a doctor Red Shoeproduction
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