January 12, 2023 • 24 mins
How do we defend and secure free speech in a culture that is increasingly uncivil and disinterested in facts and logic?
This is the topic we take up when self-care guru, corporate trainer, and motivational speaker Breeda Miller joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.
Here are the bullet points:
The elements of free speech: ability, consequences, and responsibility.
Language and thought -- one can corrupt the other
Candor vs courtesy
The ability to disagree without being disagreeable
Is it okay to speak up when you don't understand the culture?
We can't legislate good behavior, but we can legislate responsible behavior.
Curiosity vs. judgmentalism.
Relationships can change hearts and minds.
Tone is integral to communication, and we have to give others the chance to know us.
We have to be willing to question where our beliefs come from.
Travel -- broadening our boundaries -- provides us the opportunity to appreciate different outlooks and perspectives.
Oppressive culture suppresses thought by controlling speech.
How do we engage people who reject facts and logic?
Challenge yourself to articulate opposing points of view.
Good intention, clear thinking, informed action lead to ethical decision making.
Free speech isn't free, freedom is earned, and rights go hand in hand with responsibilities.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margarita Gurri (00:03):
Welcome to an episode of The Rabbi in the
Shrink. This is Dr. MargaritaGurri. And then my favorite
Rabbi
Yonason Goldson (00:11):
Yonason Goldson
Margarita Gurri (00:12):
And today we have my dear friend, Breeda
Miller I Brita. Today the topicis free speech. My family had
escaped a communist country,Cuba. And the idea of free
speech is near and dear to me.
So I'm going to ask the two ofyou Why is free speech such a
big deal? Go ahead read.
Breeda Miller (00:38):
Well, I think it's a big deal, because it's
the essence of being in a freecountry, I think. But I think
the challenge today is theconfusion between the ability to
say anything you want, and theright to say, what you feel and
what you believe. But, butpeople seem to be confused about
(01:01):
there are often consequenceswhen you utilize that or you
have a misunderstanding about asense of the appropriate and if
someone suggests that somethingshould not be said, then they
are being canceled, or they arebeing harmed or limited in some
way. So some of it is courtesy.
Some of it is just I think, amis guided thought process about
(01:29):
what free speech really is.
Margarita Gurri (01:35):
How's that?
Great start robot?
Yonason Goldson (01:38):
Yeah, absolutely. One of my favorite
quotes is by George Orwell, thatif, if, if, if thought can crop
language, language can also cropthought, and freeze three, free
speaking and free thinking gotogether, we have to be able to
(01:59):
be articulate, to know whatwords mean to use words with
respect. And to your point foryou to about the canceled
culture, which is really just anextension of political
correctness, being afraid to saywhat things are, for fear of, of
giving offence, which is not tosay we shouldn't be civil, and
(02:20):
respectful. But we shouldn't beafraid of calling things by
their proper names. We shouldn'tbe afraid of ideas. When we
engage with one another,thoughtfully, respectfully.
Constructive disagreement meansthat we don't have to agree all
(02:40):
the time. But we're in search ofthe truth. We're trying to
understand each other better.
We're trying to understand ourdifferent perspectives better.
And if we shut that down, whatwe're doing is we're destroying
the integrity of thought. Andonce that happens, we're we're
headed in a really dangerousdirection. So we know fear
Margarita Gurri (03:02):
of consequences is one of the reasons why we may
not speak up. But there arecertainly other reasons,
including I think, I think we'relosing the understanding of how
to say things in a constructiveway. Is it okay
Breeda Miller (03:19):
for me, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Reminds me of
you know, the ability todisagree without being
disagreeable. Well said,
Margarita Gurri (03:30):
Rena Miller, and Kim, Rita is a perfect
choice for this topic, becausenot only is she a dear friend,
whose opinion I value greatly,but she is the creator, the
playwright, and the only performof a one woman show Mrs. Kelly's
journey home and talk about ajourney for free speech. Being
(03:53):
in a new culture, is it okay tospeak up when you don't
understand the culture? Well,isn't that what we are? Now?
Wherever we are, there's aculture we don't understand. The
young kids with their pronouns,I'm trying really hard. And I
have a grandchild who's 13.
Like, I call them the they haveone. And they are teaching me
about the culture of my abilityto have limited free speech with
(04:15):
pronouns out of respect. Anddoesn't it make sense to be
respectful, even if it explodesmy brain a little bit? Why is it
I mean, why can't we legislatethe issue of inappropriate
speech? Why can't we justlegislate that? That's the
question that Paula Tuchmanasked.
Yonason Goldson (04:37):
I think it really comes.
Breeda Miller (04:39):
I'm sorry, go ahead.
Yonason Goldson (04:40):
It comes down to what ethics is all about. The
difference between ethics andcompliance. Compliance is a
structure but you can't rely oncompliance to do your ethical
thinking for you. You can'tlegislate The good behavior it
(05:01):
has there has to be a desire tobehave well. And well we need
laws. Because those those arethe, that's the skeleton on
which holds a society erect. Theflesh and blood and sinew of a
society is our willingness tounderstand how we should behave,
(05:25):
how we should engage people,what's a proper way of
expressing ourselves?
Margarita Gurri (05:30):
Well, we so if, if I'm gonna, if I'm in
government, and I want to incitea crowd, to charge the Capitol,
why is that not okay? Don't wehave free speech? I know I'm
misbehaving by asking thisquestion. You are? I know.
(05:50):
Thanks for noticing. So thewhole issue is if I'm in a
theater, um, am I not allowed toshout out fire? No. So what are
the consequences, the injuriousconsequences. And sometimes this
speaking, thoughtlessly isincredibly irresponsible, that I
believe can be legislated theconsequences of what we say But
(06:14):
why am I not allowed to shoutfire in a crowded room
Breeda Miller (06:19):
because people can get hurt. And now if if
there was an actual fire, andyou were doing it with your
intent was to save lives, sopeople would evacuate in in a
safe manner. I guess that'sokay. But if your intent is to
cause chaos, if your intent isjust to see what would happen
and see if you could get areaction. And then as a result,
(06:42):
people would likely be trampledor hurt or damaged in some way.
I think that's it. One, currentcultural reference that when I
think about free speech, and youwere asking about, you know,
ask, being able to askquestions, or being able to have
difficult conversations, ourdear friend, the great
(07:04):
philosopher, Ted lasso, youknow, one of my favorite quotes
from from that television show,and I think it was originally
set by Mark Twain, so pleaseforgive me that I don't know the
the origin. But it's when youwhen you have a conversation to
be curious, not judgmental. AndI think there is a difference
between curiosity and askingpeople about their life or their
(07:29):
actions or their beliefs, versusbeing judgmental and phrasing
statements, or makingaccusations or judgmental, you
know, those kinds of things. I,I think that's a really
important caveat. So we do needto be able to talk about
difficult things, as you wellknow.
Margarita Gurri (07:49):
And the difference is mindfulness. If I
can stay curious, we had DarrellDavis, the rabbi and I on our
show, and he stay curious. He'sa jazz musician who happens to
be African American. And he gotcurious about keh, keh, keh, and
their thoughts and theirposition, and he started a
(08:10):
series of respectfulconversations where he listened.
And he ended up changing theworld. And he had a bunch of
guys hanging up their robes, mejust by being curious and
mindful, is also very powerfulperson personally,
Yonason Goldson (08:26):
over 200 members left the kk k, not
because he will, he started offconvincing them they were wrong.
But he simply gave them theopportunity to get to know him.
And he got to know them. Andthose relationships led them to
give up their their membership.
You know, you're what you'resaying, breed if I say to you,
(08:46):
what's that supposed to mean?
Well, it may be, it may belinguistically a question. But
it's not asking you a question.
I'm I'm making a statement, it'san attack. So tone is integral
to communication. And there hasto be that real desire to
(09:07):
understand where others arecoming from.
Margarita Gurri (09:12):
So beyond relationships, when we listen
the way Darrell Davis did, we'realso giving people a chance to
explain like what you talkedabout in your TED Talk by by
that? Do we question whose valueis it that we're espousing it?
And what makes me think that isit automatic? Because my mother
or father or grandfatherbelieved did or my favorite
(09:34):
teacher mean, questioningourselves without being mean or
harsh or judgmental? iscritical. Just as critical is
trying to understand someonewith curiosity? Rita, you had
something to say?
Breeda Miller (09:49):
Yeah, I'm thinking about travel and the
importance of experiencing othercultures firsthand and meeting
people where they are Are and,and learning that we are far
more alike than we aredifferent. But if you live in a
bubble, surrounded by people wholook like you believe as you do,
(10:10):
stay in the same place yourentire life. It's very easy, I
think for those people to feelthreatened by anyone who's
different, the other, and thento get sucked into this mindset
of they are in danger. And theyhave something to fear people
who look differently or believedifferently or behave
(10:33):
differently than themselves. Andyou know, that it's, it's
terrifying. And I unfortunately,I think COVID exacerbated that
problem where people nottraveling and staying hunkering
down for a good reason. But I,you know, this not travelled
(10:54):
just for pleasure, but reallywhat it does to one's brain in
one's mind and one's heart.
That's, that's one solution thatI, I, I hope people will be able
to do more of,
Yonason Goldson (11:05):
yeah, there's a there's a joke. Two guys are
sitting at a bar. And they sayto the bartender, settle a bet
for us. We have the LondonHilton or the Cairo Hilton. You
can travel. But if you followthe tourist path, you can
insulate yourself traveling justas well as you can insulate
(11:26):
yourself at home, can actuallygo out and make the effort to
meet people who are local, toengage them to try to understand
them, just learn about them.
That is broadening. And itteaches us that, you know, our
view, our outlook on the worldon humanity is not the same as
(11:46):
everybody else's.
Margarita Gurri (11:51):
And Kevin's, I think that's what makes his
business and family strong andcommunities.
Yonason Goldson (11:57):
Diversity should be all about his
different perspectives.
Margarita Gurri (12:00):
Yeah, a long time ago, I taught at a
progressive school, the ParkSchool in, in Maryland. And it
was amazing, just amazing. Andthere was a brilliant
administrator Louise was made toher last name. Anyway, she was
brilliant. And one of the thingsshe did when we were picking new
professors and teachers, wereshe invited kids from different
(12:22):
ages. And we were also for anyissue encouraged to invite
anyone who was a vendor, anyonewho was in our sphere of
awareness, to get input, and tryand understand all the
possibilities, and how to thinkabout something and how to
respond in terms of creative andthoughtful solutions to things.
(12:44):
I was very excited by being apart of that process. It's it
gets the creative juices goingto be sure.
Yonason Goldson (12:53):
I think go back to our original topic, the sages
ask why the Torah was not givento the Jews while they were
still in Egypt, why did theyhave to leave and go out into
the desert? Good question,Rabbi. And that? Well, it's not
my question. I'm just, I'm justrecording and reporting here.
But their answer is fascinating.
They said that speech in Egyptwas in exile. They said the
(13:17):
culture was so oppressive, wasso constrained, that it was
impossible to articulate depthof idea in a meaningful way. The
the labor was was dawn tonightfall. And it was
(13:39):
relentless. And its people wereso exhausted, were so completely
overwhelmed. That there simplywasn't the capacity to think and
you when you when you read 1984.
And you see that, that Orwelldescribes a society where it's
(14:02):
so oppressive, where peoplecan't even think the language is
being is being destroyed, toeliminate ideas that are
contrary to the party line. Andwhen you look at the the
movements in our society to dojust that, to limit speech to
(14:22):
control speech, and thechallenge is that on the other
side, what we're talking aboutis there is there has to be
civility, there has to beempathy, there has to be a
sensitivity at not all SP allspeech is appropriate and it's
the struggle to resolve thatgray area of what's proper.
(14:45):
What's improper. That's whereour humanity comes from. That's
where that was mixed societyhelping.
Margarita Gurri (14:52):
So let's let's wind down and talk now about
what we can do about it now. AndI'll ask each of you to Didn't
you both very wise, you bothvery practical people? What can
we do now? When there is aproblem with free speech?
Because when things are goingwell, we all know what to do you
(15:13):
encourage? I mean, that one's aneasy peasy one, right? But when
there's a problem, I think iswhen we are getting into Kancil
culture, or restricting speech.
being incredibly threatening, orfeeling threatened. So what can
we do now? The challenge that
Breeda Miller (15:37):
I have is, when I interact with people who I'm
related to, a, a belief system,they believe things that I know,
to not be true to be facts. Andthe best thing that I can do is
to be civil. I spoke with anindividual the other day about
(15:59):
COVID. And I said, that I'm sograteful that no one in my
household has contracted COVID.
And were vaccinated. And youknow, that's great. And his
response was, Well, you shouldcome down to Florida, you know,
we didn't have it here. And wedon't have it. It's fine. Nobody
was mad, it's fine. And I took adeep breath, and I paused,
knowing who I was speaking with.
(16:22):
And I said, millions of peopledied. And his response was,
Well, they probably would havedied anyway.
Unknown (16:31):
And I had
Breeda Miller (16:33):
nowhere to go.
And so I realized, I know whoI'm talking with, and I was
civil. And I made my I made apoint. But I really didn't think
I could go any further. Andthat's one of my frustrations
is, I guess, knowing youraudience is always important. It
wasn't a life or deathsituation. It wasn't threatening
to me. I certainly wasn't in anydanger. But it was just
(16:55):
espousing a point of view thatis simply false. And it's it, it
breaks my heart.
Margarita Gurri (17:05):
Well, logic certainly does not have to
interfere with anyone's opinionsat times. Not a constraint for
so many rabbis.
Yonason Goldson (17:14):
Yeah. And, you know, great in that type of
situation, all you can do is tosort of extricate yourself
politely, because there reallyis nowhere to go. But you know,
there are people on both sidesthat want to engage. You know, I
wrote an article after theJanuary 6, events. And, and I
(17:41):
said, I made a statement, Isaid, Donald Trump is
responsible for the insurrectionand should be prosecuted to the
full extent of the law. And thenI said, if you agree with this,
write a short essay supportingthe opposite point of view. And
if you disagree with it, do thesame. Now, I got it, I got a
(18:05):
significant amount of comments.
Some people said, There is noother side. I got that for both
sides. But I also had people whowrote me and said, I did what
you said. Andy, it was very, itwas very enlightening. It helped
me understand the other side,they got that for both sides,
too. So there is hope that wecan bridge this distance, you
(18:28):
know, we did it on this show. Wehad Scott Mason on and I come
from a big book biblical valuesystem, he is gay, and we had an
open conversation about how it'spossible for us to engage each
other. And I think that'sprobably the proudest moment I
have from this entire podcast,that we could do that. And we
(18:51):
can do in our private lunch. Wecan look for people who come
from different points of view,and we can say, you know, you
have that look, that's verydifferent from mine. Mine is
different from yours. Could wejust try to understand each
other a little bit better?
Margarita Gurri (19:08):
Yeah. And that was possible because Scott
Mason's a brilliant thinker,with a good heart, and he wanted
to understand and he wanted tobe understood and same as you.
And it was a pleasure to hearthe two of you talking about
that is fascinating. I was veryback down
Breeda Miller (19:27):
to the intent what what is our intent is
Margarita Gurri (19:30):
let's let's go back to intent because with the
fire if my intent is to savelives, I'm still being
irresponsible and dangerous andcausing arrived by shouting
fire. So we cannot have intentthat's free of understanding its
consequences, intense a goodplace to start. But we really do
(19:51):
also have to understand the lawsand the principles of human
behavior. You know, if theintent is to save lives, And I
think that the air pressure iswrong in an airplane and I break
a window. That doesn't mean thatwhat I did was safe. So I think
we have to inform our thinkingand our actions with questions
(20:14):
that we all ask ourselves, youknow, what goes behind that? Why
do I think that? Why why is thisis okay or not? Okay? Is there a
different way of looking at it?
And that was one of my questionsthat I raise a few kids. And I
would say, Well, how do youthink they thought about this?
What's their point of view? Andmy father would would also say,
(20:36):
so if you had the rock in yourhand, why did you throw at the
little Cuban girl, he would askus? And I thought, well, that's
not a good question next. But hemade us have empathy and
compassion, but also a 360 viewthat would help us have more
personal power. So I think forme, one of the answers is no
(20:59):
yourselves. Ask yourselves whatyou really believe in why? What
are the consequences of speakingup about it? Like, like, you
know, Brita, you decided it wasa conversation, that was a good
time to let it go. Right. Sothose are my thoughts. Anyone
else have final words for ourfree speech? Discussion?
Breeda Miller (21:27):
Maybe free speech isn't free. There are
consequences.
Margarita Gurri (21:33):
Freedom is earned by good choices and good
hearts.
Yonason Goldson (21:37):
Yeah. And then in this country, we have so much
focused on our rights, we reallyneed to focus more on our
responsibilities. Because theygo hand in hand, if we aren't
responsible, we aren't going tokeep those rights, because
society will disintegrate.
Margarita Gurri (21:53):
And I agree with that justice, freedom is
earned with the sacrifice of ourmilitary and other people who
have the courage to speak up oract well. And be kind. All
right, everyone will thanks forjoining the rabbi and the
shrink. Brito we're justdelighted that you joined us.
Why don't you spend one second,tell us about when is your play
(22:14):
up? When? Where can people buytickets, man?
Breeda Miller (22:17):
Oh, my goodness, you're so good to me. Well, my
website is Brida b r e damiller.com. And I keep things
posted there all the time. Butthe next performance will be
February 5 in Trenton, Michigan.
And it's available tickets areavailable on Eventbrite. And
then I'll be in Florida, onValentine's Day at Vero Beach,
Florida. And I just found out Iwill be in Chicago on March 10,
(22:39):
at the Beverly Art Center. Sothings are happening. Really
exciting. And probably
Margarita Gurri (22:47):
my join you in March.
Breeda Miller (22:48):
I would love that. That would be nice.
Margarita Gurri (22:50):
And how about Ireland? You're having an Irish
tour, too.
Breeda Miller (22:53):
Yes. Anybody who has ever dreamed of going to
Ireland Come with me. We'rehaving a great excursion and
Rabbi, you'll be happy to knowthat while we will have a group,
we will have plenty of time tointeract with people and get to
know people, many of them mycousin's, I think, but I it's
next September, and it's calledMrs. Kelly's Journey Home Tour
(23:14):
of Ireland. 10 days, we're goingto have a blast. And I'm also
going to have an opportunity toperform the show in Ireland,
which is
Margarita Gurri (23:24):
wonderful.
Well, I think it's wonderful. Iknew Brito when it was just an
idea in her head, and I saw itcome to fruition. And
Breeda Miller (23:36):
many times I think, you know, this script,
sorry,
Margarita Gurri (23:38):
I have seen it so many times. I do know the
script. And I have to saywithout sounding patronizing.
I'm very proud of our breederMiller. Talking about free
speech, she decided to take anissue and share it with the
world to open hearts and minds.
So there we go. Well, this hasbeen the rabbi and shrink and we
will see you in another episode.
Breeda Miller (24:00):
Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the
shrink every day ethicsunscripted to book Dr. Red Shoe
Dr. Margarita curry or RabbiJonas and Goldson as speakers or
advisors for your organization,contact them at the rabbi and
the shrink.com. This has been adoctor Red Shoe production
Welcome to an episode of The Rabbi in the
Shrink. This is Dr. MargaritaGurri. And then my favorite
Rabbi
Yonason Goldson (00:11):
Yonason Goldson
Margarita Gurri (00:12):
And today we have my dear friend, Breeda
Miller I Brita. Today the topicis free speech. My family had
escaped a communist country,Cuba. And the idea of free
speech is near and dear to me.
So I'm going to ask the two ofyou Why is free speech such a
big deal? Go ahead read.
Breeda Miller (00:38):
Well, I think it's a big deal, because it's
the essence of being in a freecountry, I think. But I think
the challenge today is theconfusion between the ability to
say anything you want, and theright to say, what you feel and
what you believe. But, butpeople seem to be confused about
(01:01):
there are often consequenceswhen you utilize that or you
have a misunderstanding about asense of the appropriate and if
someone suggests that somethingshould not be said, then they
are being canceled, or they arebeing harmed or limited in some
way. So some of it is courtesy.
Some of it is just I think, amis guided thought process about
(01:29):
what free speech really is.
Margarita Gurri (01:35):
How's that?
Great start robot?
Yonason Goldson (01:38):
Yeah, absolutely. One of my favorite
quotes is by George Orwell, thatif, if, if, if thought can crop
language, language can also cropthought, and freeze three, free
speaking and free thinking gotogether, we have to be able to
(01:59):
be articulate, to know whatwords mean to use words with
respect. And to your point foryou to about the canceled
culture, which is really just anextension of political
correctness, being afraid to saywhat things are, for fear of, of
giving offence, which is not tosay we shouldn't be civil, and
(02:20):
respectful. But we shouldn't beafraid of calling things by
their proper names. We shouldn'tbe afraid of ideas. When we
engage with one another,thoughtfully, respectfully.
Constructive disagreement meansthat we don't have to agree all
(02:40):
the time. But we're in search ofthe truth. We're trying to
understand each other better.
We're trying to understand ourdifferent perspectives better.
And if we shut that down, whatwe're doing is we're destroying
the integrity of thought. Andonce that happens, we're we're
headed in a really dangerousdirection. So we know fear
Margarita Gurri (03:02):
of consequences is one of the reasons why we may
not speak up. But there arecertainly other reasons,
including I think, I think we'relosing the understanding of how
to say things in a constructiveway. Is it okay
Breeda Miller (03:19):
for me, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Reminds me of
you know, the ability todisagree without being
disagreeable. Well said,
Margarita Gurri (03:30):
Rena Miller, and Kim, Rita is a perfect
choice for this topic, becausenot only is she a dear friend,
whose opinion I value greatly,but she is the creator, the
playwright, and the only performof a one woman show Mrs. Kelly's
journey home and talk about ajourney for free speech. Being
(03:53):
in a new culture, is it okay tospeak up when you don't
understand the culture? Well,isn't that what we are? Now?
Wherever we are, there's aculture we don't understand. The
young kids with their pronouns,I'm trying really hard. And I
have a grandchild who's 13.
Like, I call them the they haveone. And they are teaching me
about the culture of my abilityto have limited free speech with
(04:15):
pronouns out of respect. Anddoesn't it make sense to be
respectful, even if it explodesmy brain a little bit? Why is it
I mean, why can't we legislatethe issue of inappropriate
speech? Why can't we justlegislate that? That's the
question that Paula Tuchmanasked.
Yonason Goldson (04:37):
I think it really comes.
Breeda Miller (04:39):
I'm sorry, go ahead.
Yonason Goldson (04:40):
It comes down to what ethics is all about. The
difference between ethics andcompliance. Compliance is a
structure but you can't rely oncompliance to do your ethical
thinking for you. You can'tlegislate The good behavior it
(05:01):
has there has to be a desire tobehave well. And well we need
laws. Because those those arethe, that's the skeleton on
which holds a society erect. Theflesh and blood and sinew of a
society is our willingness tounderstand how we should behave,
(05:25):
how we should engage people,what's a proper way of
expressing ourselves?
Margarita Gurri (05:30):
Well, we so if, if I'm gonna, if I'm in
government, and I want to incitea crowd, to charge the Capitol,
why is that not okay? Don't wehave free speech? I know I'm
misbehaving by asking thisquestion. You are? I know.
(05:50):
Thanks for noticing. So thewhole issue is if I'm in a
theater, um, am I not allowed toshout out fire? No. So what are
the consequences, the injuriousconsequences. And sometimes this
speaking, thoughtlessly isincredibly irresponsible, that I
believe can be legislated theconsequences of what we say But
(06:14):
why am I not allowed to shoutfire in a crowded room
Breeda Miller (06:19):
because people can get hurt. And now if if
there was an actual fire, andyou were doing it with your
intent was to save lives, sopeople would evacuate in in a
safe manner. I guess that'sokay. But if your intent is to
cause chaos, if your intent isjust to see what would happen
and see if you could get areaction. And then as a result,
(06:42):
people would likely be trampledor hurt or damaged in some way.
I think that's it. One, currentcultural reference that when I
think about free speech, and youwere asking about, you know,
ask, being able to askquestions, or being able to have
difficult conversations, ourdear friend, the great
(07:04):
philosopher, Ted lasso, youknow, one of my favorite quotes
from from that television show,and I think it was originally
set by Mark Twain, so pleaseforgive me that I don't know the
the origin. But it's when youwhen you have a conversation to
be curious, not judgmental. AndI think there is a difference
between curiosity and askingpeople about their life or their
(07:29):
actions or their beliefs, versusbeing judgmental and phrasing
statements, or makingaccusations or judgmental, you
know, those kinds of things. I,I think that's a really
important caveat. So we do needto be able to talk about
difficult things, as you wellknow.
Margarita Gurri (07:49):
And the difference is mindfulness. If I
can stay curious, we had DarrellDavis, the rabbi and I on our
show, and he stay curious. He'sa jazz musician who happens to
be African American. And he gotcurious about keh, keh, keh, and
their thoughts and theirposition, and he started a
(08:10):
series of respectfulconversations where he listened.
And he ended up changing theworld. And he had a bunch of
guys hanging up their robes, mejust by being curious and
mindful, is also very powerfulperson personally,
Yonason Goldson (08:26):
over 200 members left the kk k, not
because he will, he started offconvincing them they were wrong.
But he simply gave them theopportunity to get to know him.
And he got to know them. Andthose relationships led them to
give up their their membership.
You know, you're what you'resaying, breed if I say to you,
(08:46):
what's that supposed to mean?
Well, it may be, it may belinguistically a question. But
it's not asking you a question.
I'm I'm making a statement, it'san attack. So tone is integral
to communication. And there hasto be that real desire to
(09:07):
understand where others arecoming from.
Margarita Gurri (09:12):
So beyond relationships, when we listen
the way Darrell Davis did, we'realso giving people a chance to
explain like what you talkedabout in your TED Talk by by
that? Do we question whose valueis it that we're espousing it?
And what makes me think that isit automatic? Because my mother
or father or grandfatherbelieved did or my favorite
(09:34):
teacher mean, questioningourselves without being mean or
harsh or judgmental? iscritical. Just as critical is
trying to understand someonewith curiosity? Rita, you had
something to say?
Breeda Miller (09:49):
Yeah, I'm thinking about travel and the
importance of experiencing othercultures firsthand and meeting
people where they are Are and,and learning that we are far
more alike than we aredifferent. But if you live in a
bubble, surrounded by people wholook like you believe as you do,
(10:10):
stay in the same place yourentire life. It's very easy, I
think for those people to feelthreatened by anyone who's
different, the other, and thento get sucked into this mindset
of they are in danger. And theyhave something to fear people
who look differently or believedifferently or behave
(10:33):
differently than themselves. Andyou know, that it's, it's
terrifying. And I unfortunately,I think COVID exacerbated that
problem where people nottraveling and staying hunkering
down for a good reason. But I,you know, this not travelled
(10:54):
just for pleasure, but reallywhat it does to one's brain in
one's mind and one's heart.
That's, that's one solution thatI, I, I hope people will be able
to do more of,
Yonason Goldson (11:05):
yeah, there's a there's a joke. Two guys are
sitting at a bar. And they sayto the bartender, settle a bet
for us. We have the LondonHilton or the Cairo Hilton. You
can travel. But if you followthe tourist path, you can
insulate yourself traveling justas well as you can insulate
(11:26):
yourself at home, can actuallygo out and make the effort to
meet people who are local, toengage them to try to understand
them, just learn about them.
That is broadening. And itteaches us that, you know, our
view, our outlook on the worldon humanity is not the same as
(11:46):
everybody else's.
Margarita Gurri (11:51):
And Kevin's, I think that's what makes his
business and family strong andcommunities.
Yonason Goldson (11:57):
Diversity should be all about his
different perspectives.
Margarita Gurri (12:00):
Yeah, a long time ago, I taught at a
progressive school, the ParkSchool in, in Maryland. And it
was amazing, just amazing. Andthere was a brilliant
administrator Louise was made toher last name. Anyway, she was
brilliant. And one of the thingsshe did when we were picking new
professors and teachers, wereshe invited kids from different
(12:22):
ages. And we were also for anyissue encouraged to invite
anyone who was a vendor, anyonewho was in our sphere of
awareness, to get input, and tryand understand all the
possibilities, and how to thinkabout something and how to
respond in terms of creative andthoughtful solutions to things.
(12:44):
I was very excited by being apart of that process. It's it
gets the creative juices goingto be sure.
Yonason Goldson (12:53):
I think go back to our original topic, the sages
ask why the Torah was not givento the Jews while they were
still in Egypt, why did theyhave to leave and go out into
the desert? Good question,Rabbi. And that? Well, it's not
my question. I'm just, I'm justrecording and reporting here.
But their answer is fascinating.
They said that speech in Egyptwas in exile. They said the
(13:17):
culture was so oppressive, wasso constrained, that it was
impossible to articulate depthof idea in a meaningful way. The
the labor was was dawn tonightfall. And it was
(13:39):
relentless. And its people wereso exhausted, were so completely
overwhelmed. That there simplywasn't the capacity to think and
you when you when you read 1984.
And you see that, that Orwelldescribes a society where it's
(14:02):
so oppressive, where peoplecan't even think the language is
being is being destroyed, toeliminate ideas that are
contrary to the party line. Andwhen you look at the the
movements in our society to dojust that, to limit speech to
(14:22):
control speech, and thechallenge is that on the other
side, what we're talking aboutis there is there has to be
civility, there has to beempathy, there has to be a
sensitivity at not all SP allspeech is appropriate and it's
the struggle to resolve thatgray area of what's proper.
(14:45):
What's improper. That's whereour humanity comes from. That's
where that was mixed societyhelping.
Margarita Gurri (14:52):
So let's let's wind down and talk now about
what we can do about it now. AndI'll ask each of you to Didn't
you both very wise, you bothvery practical people? What can
we do now? When there is aproblem with free speech?
Because when things are goingwell, we all know what to do you
(15:13):
encourage? I mean, that one's aneasy peasy one, right? But when
there's a problem, I think iswhen we are getting into Kancil
culture, or restricting speech.
being incredibly threatening, orfeeling threatened. So what can
we do now? The challenge that
Breeda Miller (15:37):
I have is, when I interact with people who I'm
related to, a, a belief system,they believe things that I know,
to not be true to be facts. Andthe best thing that I can do is
to be civil. I spoke with anindividual the other day about
(15:59):
COVID. And I said, that I'm sograteful that no one in my
household has contracted COVID.
And were vaccinated. And youknow, that's great. And his
response was, Well, you shouldcome down to Florida, you know,
we didn't have it here. And wedon't have it. It's fine. Nobody
was mad, it's fine. And I took adeep breath, and I paused,
knowing who I was speaking with.
(16:22):
And I said, millions of peopledied. And his response was,
Well, they probably would havedied anyway.
Unknown (16:31):
And I had
Breeda Miller (16:33):
nowhere to go.
And so I realized, I know whoI'm talking with, and I was
civil. And I made my I made apoint. But I really didn't think
I could go any further. Andthat's one of my frustrations
is, I guess, knowing youraudience is always important. It
wasn't a life or deathsituation. It wasn't threatening
to me. I certainly wasn't in anydanger. But it was just
(16:55):
espousing a point of view thatis simply false. And it's it, it
breaks my heart.
Margarita Gurri (17:05):
Well, logic certainly does not have to
interfere with anyone's opinionsat times. Not a constraint for
so many rabbis.
Yonason Goldson (17:14):
Yeah. And, you know, great in that type of
situation, all you can do is tosort of extricate yourself
politely, because there reallyis nowhere to go. But you know,
there are people on both sidesthat want to engage. You know, I
wrote an article after theJanuary 6, events. And, and I
(17:41):
said, I made a statement, Isaid, Donald Trump is
responsible for the insurrectionand should be prosecuted to the
full extent of the law. And thenI said, if you agree with this,
write a short essay supportingthe opposite point of view. And
if you disagree with it, do thesame. Now, I got it, I got a
(18:05):
significant amount of comments.
Some people said, There is noother side. I got that for both
sides. But I also had people whowrote me and said, I did what
you said. Andy, it was very, itwas very enlightening. It helped
me understand the other side,they got that for both sides,
too. So there is hope that wecan bridge this distance, you
(18:28):
know, we did it on this show. Wehad Scott Mason on and I come
from a big book biblical valuesystem, he is gay, and we had an
open conversation about how it'spossible for us to engage each
other. And I think that'sprobably the proudest moment I
have from this entire podcast,that we could do that. And we
(18:51):
can do in our private lunch. Wecan look for people who come
from different points of view,and we can say, you know, you
have that look, that's verydifferent from mine. Mine is
different from yours. Could wejust try to understand each
other a little bit better?
Margarita Gurri (19:08):
Yeah. And that was possible because Scott
Mason's a brilliant thinker,with a good heart, and he wanted
to understand and he wanted tobe understood and same as you.
And it was a pleasure to hearthe two of you talking about
that is fascinating. I was veryback down
Breeda Miller (19:27):
to the intent what what is our intent is
Margarita Gurri (19:30):
let's let's go back to intent because with the
fire if my intent is to savelives, I'm still being
irresponsible and dangerous andcausing arrived by shouting
fire. So we cannot have intentthat's free of understanding its
consequences, intense a goodplace to start. But we really do
(19:51):
also have to understand the lawsand the principles of human
behavior. You know, if theintent is to save lives, And I
think that the air pressure iswrong in an airplane and I break
a window. That doesn't mean thatwhat I did was safe. So I think
we have to inform our thinkingand our actions with questions
(20:14):
that we all ask ourselves, youknow, what goes behind that? Why
do I think that? Why why is thisis okay or not? Okay? Is there a
different way of looking at it?
And that was one of my questionsthat I raise a few kids. And I
would say, Well, how do youthink they thought about this?
What's their point of view? Andmy father would would also say,
(20:36):
so if you had the rock in yourhand, why did you throw at the
little Cuban girl, he would askus? And I thought, well, that's
not a good question next. But hemade us have empathy and
compassion, but also a 360 viewthat would help us have more
personal power. So I think forme, one of the answers is no
(20:59):
yourselves. Ask yourselves whatyou really believe in why? What
are the consequences of speakingup about it? Like, like, you
know, Brita, you decided it wasa conversation, that was a good
time to let it go. Right. Sothose are my thoughts. Anyone
else have final words for ourfree speech? Discussion?
Breeda Miller (21:27):
Maybe free speech isn't free. There are
consequences.
Margarita Gurri (21:33):
Freedom is earned by good choices and good
hearts.
Yonason Goldson (21:37):
Yeah. And then in this country, we have so much
focused on our rights, we reallyneed to focus more on our
responsibilities. Because theygo hand in hand, if we aren't
responsible, we aren't going tokeep those rights, because
society will disintegrate.
Margarita Gurri (21:53):
And I agree with that justice, freedom is
earned with the sacrifice of ourmilitary and other people who
have the courage to speak up oract well. And be kind. All
right, everyone will thanks forjoining the rabbi and the
shrink. Brito we're justdelighted that you joined us.
Why don't you spend one second,tell us about when is your play
(22:14):
up? When? Where can people buytickets, man?
Breeda Miller (22:17):
Oh, my goodness, you're so good to me. Well, my
website is Brida b r e damiller.com. And I keep things
posted there all the time. Butthe next performance will be
February 5 in Trenton, Michigan.
And it's available tickets areavailable on Eventbrite. And
then I'll be in Florida, onValentine's Day at Vero Beach,
Florida. And I just found out Iwill be in Chicago on March 10,
(22:39):
at the Beverly Art Center. Sothings are happening. Really
exciting. And probably
Margarita Gurri (22:47):
my join you in March.
Breeda Miller (22:48):
I would love that. That would be nice.
Margarita Gurri (22:50):
And how about Ireland? You're having an Irish
tour, too.
Breeda Miller (22:53):
Yes. Anybody who has ever dreamed of going to
Ireland Come with me. We'rehaving a great excursion and
Rabbi, you'll be happy to knowthat while we will have a group,
we will have plenty of time tointeract with people and get to
know people, many of them mycousin's, I think, but I it's
next September, and it's calledMrs. Kelly's Journey Home Tour
(23:14):
of Ireland. 10 days, we're goingto have a blast. And I'm also
going to have an opportunity toperform the show in Ireland,
which is
Margarita Gurri (23:24):
wonderful.
Well, I think it's wonderful. Iknew Brito when it was just an
idea in her head, and I saw itcome to fruition. And
Breeda Miller (23:36):
many times I think, you know, this script,
sorry,
Margarita Gurri (23:38):
I have seen it so many times. I do know the
script. And I have to saywithout sounding patronizing.
I'm very proud of our breederMiller. Talking about free
speech, she decided to take anissue and share it with the
world to open hearts and minds.
So there we go. Well, this hasbeen the rabbi and shrink and we
will see you in another episode.
Breeda Miller (24:00):
Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the
shrink every day ethicsunscripted to book Dr. Red Shoe
Dr. Margarita curry or RabbiJonas and Goldson as speakers or
advisors for your organization,contact them at the rabbi and
the shrink.com. This has been adoctor Red Shoe production
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