July 14, 2025 • 20 mins
Keith Dunnavant discusses the terrific new SEC Storied "Wishbone"
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The wishbone was the most devastating offense because on that
play somebody was going to get punished.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Who was the toughest because it was just a mean,
brutal game.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
In running the wishbone, Oh man, I think thirty four surgeries,
I'm going to equate thirty four of them to the wishbombe.
This offense revolutionized college football. There's no one thing you
can stop. I mean, curing yourself with victory.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I wish it was not easy.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
It was a great offense, and it was an offense
that was almost unstoppable.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Fifty eight yards to a postball home touch down.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I was going, what and the world is going on
out there?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
This offense was born out of desperation.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Coach Bryant was very close to hanging it up. Oklahoma,
Texas and Alabama. Those teams were in trouble and the
wishbone is what saved them. I think we all want
the same thing.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
We'd like to effects our defense in that way.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Football team, seven national championships in ten years.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
You deserve to me number one, and that's what you are.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
What they have in common, wish bung baby.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Welcome back to Sports Talk ninety ninety five Randy Kennedy
in the Thread at Faster Studios, And yes, the new
SEC story is Wishbone, and it is a college football masterpiece.
I dare say. We've got the executive producer with us
Keith done of it. A lot of people familiar with
his work, he joins us. Now, Keith, I'm calling it
a masterpiece. Man, I could not have been I know
(01:48):
I'm the target audience, but I couldn't have been more
thrilled with your latest production here.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Man, Well, can we just end the interview right now?
We just go from here.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I need you get away so you can get back
to working on something else I'll enjoy. But tell me,
tell me the origins of this Wishbone obviously pretty self explanatory.
You're doing the history of that offense, which people in
the state of Alabama certain they are familiar with. What
was the origin of doing this SEC story?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, this is something I think well over a decade,
I got the green la this fear though it's been
finished here for a while. Uh My buddy Chip reeves
as a fantastic job directing. Greatful with him and rest
the guys, and you know, we just the connective tissue
here of course that is that three of the greatest
(02:41):
programs in college football history, Texas, Oklahoma, and Alabama were uh,
we're just desperate enough to know but to try something
uh risky and new, and of course, uh that desperation
led to uh a lot of wins uh for for
those three And of course people in Alabama, of course
(03:02):
would remember that in nineteen seventy one, Alabama was was
pretty desperate. And I think one of the things with
Coach Bryant is that you if Coach Bryant had not
taken the risk of going to the Wishbone in nineteen
seventy one with the help of his good friend Daryl Royal,
(03:22):
of course in the offense of any Biamory Blard, if
he had not taken that chance, I think the Bear
Bryant that we know doesn't exist, the Bear Bryant that
we know in the twenty first century, as this icon
would not be the same without the seventies, those one
hundred and three victories. So it's a you know, it's
(03:46):
a story that's been close. You know, I've written about
this and done podcasts about this, in books and so forth.
But to do it in this way and to tie
it together. We're excited about people across the country and
to see getting see this gump, cause.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
You know, so much a sign of the time that
back when Alabama converted to the wishbone, nobody knew it.
And in fact, when you know, the one day when
writers came around, they ran the old offense. And even
in the pregame right out in Los Angeles, they ran
the old offense in the pregame warm ups. You couldn't
spring something like that on somebody now probably.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Oh gosh, well, two things of course. First of all,
would would Darrel Royle would have given it to Bryant?
First of all, would Daryl Royle have given it to
his harsh rival Oklahoma? Yeah, okay? And then would he
he had given it to his good friend Bear Bryant.
But yeah, the whole secrecy thing, I remember years ago
(04:42):
when I was when I was writing one of my
Alabama books talking about Darryl Royle and John McKay, who
were two of Bryant's best friends. And so the fact
that that Darrel Royal helped Bear Bryant uh spring a
trap on his other good friend, John McKay, You can't
make this stuff up. And so it's almost the secrecy
(05:04):
aspect of it. You talked to those guys, several of them,
you know that we have in the film, guys like
Joel Laboo and of course later on Major Ogilvy and
Rooster Rutledge was there for that switch. You know, it's
like something out of a spy novel, but it really happens.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Yeah, well, it seems like if it was a spy novel,
you would have to question the spy. That was Daryl
Royal when it came to Oklahoma. So obviously his friend
was there as the head coach, but little did Daryl
Royo know he was also giving those secrets to Barry Switzer,
who was on staff at the time. How do you
think that came about that Oklahoma got the offense from
(05:43):
Texas and then later went on to have great, great
success with it.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
You know, that was one of that storyline. I think
is one of the things that made me want to
do this film for years. Okay, because it is such
a it's so difficult to even put your arms around
that in the twenty first century looking back at that story.
For those people in Alabama, Uh, if you if you
(06:10):
aren't initiated on this stuff, Alabama people are. But if
you've been living in a cave, Texas and Oklahoma do
not like each other.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
In Alabama, all the people might be able to understand
that just a little bit. So the fact that that
Darryl told Emory to call up the then offensive coordinator
for Chuck Fairbanks, a guy named Barrius Switzer, and and
share the wishbone with him, just scratch your head and think,
(06:44):
did that really happen or because it just it seems unbelievable.
But it did, of course.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
And I guess you know, one thing I took away
from the documentary that I didn't really know Keith was
that man Daryl Royal was a was a nice guy.
I mean like a really nice guy, not only with
Oklahoma but also with Alabama. Of course, the nice guy
thing kind of definitely came back to bide him with
the success that Oklahoma had and how they kind of
(07:11):
took the whole premise and elevated it to a new
level with some of the players they had.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, you know, saying the film, that was the great
irony of the story is that is that Darryl shared
this twice and the offense was more powerful than his
ability to control it and so but Daryl was a
really super guy and you know, one of the great
coaches in college football history.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
We're talking to Keith Donovan. New series coming out on
the SEC network, SEC Story. It's called Wishbone. It'll be
out next week, right. We debut at.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Keith Thursday night on SEC Network at seven o'clock Eastern Time.
And of course they like to get their money worth
that at the ESPN network, so you will not be
able to avoided probably for the next six months.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
That's good. One thing that I knew that you would
hit on really hard was the role of Emory Ballard,
who I think has been you know, you're doing a
good job offsetting this, but a little bit lost to history.
And of course when you start to tell the Wishbone story,
that's kind of the origin, right Keith, it.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Is, and of course the desperation that we've talked about,
this is also a story about innovation and invention and
what Emory came up with. Emory, of course been a
successful high school coach. What he came up with was,
I mean, it's a stroke of genius and he's never
I think he got due at one point. But you know,
(08:41):
the time March is on, and I think he's been
a little bit lost to history. The full impact of
that story and his fingerprints on the entire era of
college football are pretty powerful, and hopefully in our story,
one of the things that across is that Emory Blard
(09:02):
gets his due as a as a real innovator in
kind of football.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
One of the things I found, just as a side note,
really interesting that you caught up with his wife and apparently,
like you know, she could go to the school down
the street and install the wishbone right now. She wanted
to do it seemed like, I mean, she she seemed
really involved with like she knew what she was talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Keith, Oh, absolutely absolutely. And of course Emory is a
ends up, you know, becoming ill and and with a
with a disease that a lot of Alabama people can
you know, are familiar with because of several Alabama players,
and and so it's a it's a sad story, but ultimately,
(09:42):
you know, Emory lives on in uh in the memories
of this film.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
So tell me we start out with you talking to
Bruce Arians, who's not exactly h readily associated with the Wishbone.
I mean if if you just told me to name
twenty people associated with the Wishbone, he wouldn't be one
of those. But why is he so connected to it
and why was he integral to this story?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Well, I'm gonna get my buddy Chip Breaths, the director,
the credit for that because, uh, we were talking. We're
sitting around one day and talking about that, and that
was Chip's idea, among many others. And the Chip is
a terrific storyteller and it's great to work with him
on this. The basically, of course, Bruce, a lot of
(10:25):
Alabama people would remember he was the element of offensive
coordinator back twenty five odd years ago. But of course
he went on to be a great Super Bowl winning coach.
He hee was a Wishbone quarterback briefly to Virginia Tech,
and so that kind of gives us the entree and
(10:45):
also allows us Bruce allows us to bring the coach's
element to it in terms of explaining it and connecting
it forward to you know, because the Wishbone in a
sense lived and things like the r p O today. Okay,
so uh, he brought that element to bear for.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Us and it really you know, you don't have to
be the biggest football fan in the world to see
some similarities between the offenses of the day and the
Wishbone if you if you look closely enough, right, I mean,
is there's a lot of that option d n A
in these offenses today.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah. I think college football or football in general is
kind of like Hollywood or television. Once something is successful,
people are going to copy it and uh and and
then they when they copy it, and then when it
becomes passe a or or they developed they're able to
uh to find a way to to stop it, then
(11:44):
they take elements of that and put it into something else.
So I think the reality of it is that that
that college football offenses there's there's a sort of an
organic nature. Uh if you go all the way back
that you know, one thing connects to the other to
uh one one offense becomes pass because you figure out
(12:04):
how to stop it. But then you you take this
part of the offense and you and you build it
into something else. And so that's one of the interesting
thing is about football is that it's this organic thing
that keeps evolving.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Keith Dunavan is the executive producer of the documentary Wishbone,
also the author of many books, including the UH Definity
biographies on Paul Bryant, Joe Montana, Bart Starr. You've been
around it a long time, Keith, in various forms of media.
What did you learn in doing this? Was there an
aha moment for you? I know that most of it
(12:40):
you would have already been familiar with, But was there
a moment where you're like, Oh, that's gonna be great
in this documentary?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
You know? Probably that's a really good question. Probably several things,
because you always learn something. But I think I think
I learned, for one thing that uh, the that the
the heartfelt feelings that a lot of people still have
for Amory Billard and the fact that his players, obviously
(13:11):
his wife others who felt like that he never kind
of got his due. And hopefully, I think I think
we all will have a really good appreciation for that
in this film. And as I said, one of the
things that I hope comes out of this film is
that is that Emory will get his due as a
college football innovator.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
You know, Keith, You're probably like me, like I can
watch a watch a game today and there could be
a ninety yard pass and I'm excited about it.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Or whatever.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
But man, when I watched that wishbone steel and the
quarterback gets right to the inflection point where what he's
going to do, it's almost like I'm on a roller coaster,
like when my stomach drops. You know. Do you have
that same sort of relationship to it.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Well, I do, and that's a really well put. And
the thing about it is, this was the offense my child. Yes,
And uh, you know, so I remember I remember the
seventies through the context the wishbone, like I remember the
seventies through the context of Steely Dan and you know,
and the Waltons and you know, all these other things
(14:15):
that were cultural touchstones. So the wishbone and the other
thing you know about the offense is that you know,
you had to, boy, you had to be toughest nails
as a quarterback to run this offense because you were
going to get clobbered if even if you didn't have
the ball. But you also had to be quick and
(14:37):
you had to you had to make really good decisions.
And so you know, for every body who talks about
all the skill that is required of all the modern
day fasters, and it's a completely different game in that respect,
I'm going to tell you something, those wishbone quarterbacks, Uh,
they had something special. Uh and of course you know
(14:59):
in Alabama talking about you know, guys like Terry Davis's,
Dedmond Sheeley and the two Rutlitches and Richard Todd and
all the others. Uh, they had something special and uh
they they did most of them, you know, didn't pass it,
you know, a mile. But of course the foot side
of that is is that if you, uh, if you
(15:21):
had a great a game breaker like an Ozzie Newsom,
you go get someone on one coverage. And Richard Todd
and Jeff Rutlinch they hit Ozzie with a few, so
uh it was also a great passing offense. They just
didn't pass it very often.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, you're absolutely right about that. You mentioned Terry Davis,
Keith he was, uh he was my first little league coach.
Like right after he graduated Alabama. He came to who
We're to coach my little league team?
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And I was like, Louisiana, I was like, this can't
be real.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Keith.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I was like that that guy's not a real person.
Like that's the quarterback at Alabama. What's he doing out here?
But uh, like you mentioned just this great touchstones from
your from your childhood for sure. Uh, just a great memories,
great memories of that.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Keith.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
The thing that one thing that strikes me from watching
Wishbone is that, you know, Texas wasn't immediately successful with
the first couple of games. I just started thinking, Wow,
what if they had started out like oh to eight,
you know, and fired Daryl Royal. Would we have even
had this documentary to make. Would we even know what
the word wishbone meant in a context of football?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Probably not. That's the you know, that's the thing about
about football as in life. Not to sound like a professor,
but you know, ambition is one thing, but you got
to take risks in life to get somewhere. And Darryl
understood that, and Paul Bryant understood that, and Chuck Fairbanks
(16:45):
understood that, and so the desperation led to the risk,
and the risk led to three really great eras uh,
three really good, great powerful programs during that era. So yeah,
what if and what if Paul Bryant had had had
failed with it miserably in nineteen seventy one.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah, even in that first game, if it had not
gone away, you'd be like this guy's lost his mind,
you know what's doing.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, and you think what exactly, and you think about,
h that was a very rudimentary bone at that point,
because you know, the did the Texas offensive coaches came
to they they met with the Alabama offensive coaches that
the old hop the day in across the river from Tusculution,
(17:35):
north side of Tuscalution, and the they crammed for three
or four days. And you know the reality of it
is they only that was a very rudimentary bone at
that point. Uh. And if Terry Davis doesn't soak that
offense up like a sponge mastering the read versus the pitch. Uh.
(17:57):
And if you don't have you know, guys like Johnny
Musso and Joe Blue and all the others, you know,
the things could have been very different. And of course,
the reality of it is, by about nineteen seventy three
that bone was much more sophisticated for Alabama. Of course,
by that point Oklahoma was just you know, was just
(18:19):
tearing it up. And so it was It's interesting that
I think in early on in seventy one, I think
Alabama was beating opponents well, first of all, the defense
became this is one of the untold stories in nineteen
seventy one. The defense with most of the same guys
(18:39):
was a ten times a better defense in seventy one.
So that was a huge help for Alabama because they've
been pretty horrible in sixty ninety seventy. But I think
one of the main reasons that they were able to
do as well as they did in seventy one is
the power of just being something new that they didn't
(19:00):
know how to defend. And so by the time they
became really a really sophisticated version of the woicebone Gosh,
by seventy three, Alabama was just about untouchable.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Mm hmmm. It's great stuff. And by the way, I
appreciate the fact that you fit it. You fit in
some chairway jerseys and should repads flapping in the air,
because again that's uh, that's my childhood too, Keith.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Oh absolutely, absolutely absolutely, But it's a it's a good
time to look back and at these three programs particularly
and also a little Mississippi State and in Texas A
and M and uh, I hope people will check it
out and uh, it's a uh, it's a powerful story.
I think that that UH looks back at UH at
(19:45):
a special time in college football history.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Keith, you guys knocked it out of the park. I
appreciate you taking a couple of minutes to talk to
us about it. And anytime you got something you want
to promote in the future, you know you can reach out.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
All right, Thanks Randy, you guys have a good day.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
There you go. That is Keith done of it. He
is the executive producer of this new SEC storied Wishbone.
It premieres on Thursday night on the SEC Network and
it is terrific. I've had a chance to watch it,
and I promise you it will not be a waste
of your time if you love football and love college football,
it is absolutely awesome. We appreciate Keick Donovant for being
(20:19):
with us there. Amri Ni Kennedy in the thread at
Fasteners Studio on Sports Talk ninety nine to five.
The wishbone was the most devastating offense because on that
play somebody was going to get punished.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Who was the toughest because it was just a mean,
brutal game.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
In running the wishbone, Oh man, I think thirty four surgeries,
I'm going to equate thirty four of them to the wishbombe.
This offense revolutionized college football. There's no one thing you
can stop. I mean, curing yourself with victory.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I wish it was not easy.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
It was a great offense, and it was an offense
that was almost unstoppable.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Fifty eight yards to a postball home touch down.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I was going, what and the world is going on
out there?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
This offense was born out of desperation.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Coach Bryant was very close to hanging it up. Oklahoma,
Texas and Alabama. Those teams were in trouble and the
wishbone is what saved them. I think we all want
the same thing.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
We'd like to effects our defense in that way.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Football team, seven national championships in ten years.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
You deserve to me number one, and that's what you are.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
What they have in common, wish bung baby.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Welcome back to Sports Talk ninety ninety five Randy Kennedy
in the Thread at Faster Studios, And yes, the new
SEC story is Wishbone, and it is a college football masterpiece.
I dare say. We've got the executive producer with us
Keith done of it. A lot of people familiar with
his work, he joins us. Now, Keith, I'm calling it
a masterpiece. Man, I could not have been I know
(01:48):
I'm the target audience, but I couldn't have been more
thrilled with your latest production here.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Man, Well, can we just end the interview right now?
We just go from here.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I need you get away so you can get back
to working on something else I'll enjoy. But tell me,
tell me the origins of this Wishbone obviously pretty self explanatory.
You're doing the history of that offense, which people in
the state of Alabama certain they are familiar with. What
was the origin of doing this SEC story?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, this is something I think well over a decade,
I got the green la this fear though it's been
finished here for a while. Uh My buddy Chip reeves
as a fantastic job directing. Greatful with him and rest
the guys, and you know, we just the connective tissue
here of course that is that three of the greatest
(02:41):
programs in college football history, Texas, Oklahoma, and Alabama were uh,
we're just desperate enough to know but to try something
uh risky and new, and of course, uh that desperation
led to uh a lot of wins uh for for
those three And of course people in Alabama, of course
(03:02):
would remember that in nineteen seventy one, Alabama was was
pretty desperate. And I think one of the things with
Coach Bryant is that you if Coach Bryant had not
taken the risk of going to the Wishbone in nineteen
seventy one with the help of his good friend Daryl Royal,
(03:22):
of course in the offense of any Biamory Blard, if
he had not taken that chance, I think the Bear
Bryant that we know doesn't exist, the Bear Bryant that
we know in the twenty first century, as this icon
would not be the same without the seventies, those one
hundred and three victories. So it's a you know, it's
(03:46):
a story that's been close. You know, I've written about
this and done podcasts about this, in books and so forth.
But to do it in this way and to tie
it together. We're excited about people across the country and
to see getting see this gump, cause.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
You know, so much a sign of the time that
back when Alabama converted to the wishbone, nobody knew it.
And in fact, when you know, the one day when
writers came around, they ran the old offense. And even
in the pregame right out in Los Angeles, they ran
the old offense in the pregame warm ups. You couldn't
spring something like that on somebody now probably.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Oh gosh, well, two things of course. First of all,
would would Darrel Royle would have given it to Bryant?
First of all, would Daryl Royle have given it to
his harsh rival Oklahoma? Yeah, okay? And then would he
he had given it to his good friend Bear Bryant.
But yeah, the whole secrecy thing, I remember years ago
(04:42):
when I was when I was writing one of my
Alabama books talking about Darryl Royle and John McKay, who
were two of Bryant's best friends. And so the fact
that that Darrel Royal helped Bear Bryant uh spring a
trap on his other good friend, John McKay, You can't
make this stuff up. And so it's almost the secrecy
(05:04):
aspect of it. You talked to those guys, several of them,
you know that we have in the film, guys like
Joel Laboo and of course later on Major Ogilvy and
Rooster Rutledge was there for that switch. You know, it's
like something out of a spy novel, but it really happens.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Yeah, well, it seems like if it was a spy novel,
you would have to question the spy. That was Daryl
Royal when it came to Oklahoma. So obviously his friend
was there as the head coach, but little did Daryl
Royo know he was also giving those secrets to Barry Switzer,
who was on staff at the time. How do you
think that came about that Oklahoma got the offense from
(05:43):
Texas and then later went on to have great, great
success with it.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
You know, that was one of that storyline. I think
is one of the things that made me want to
do this film for years. Okay, because it is such
a it's so difficult to even put your arms around
that in the twenty first century looking back at that story.
For those people in Alabama, Uh, if you if you
(06:10):
aren't initiated on this stuff, Alabama people are. But if
you've been living in a cave, Texas and Oklahoma do
not like each other.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
In Alabama, all the people might be able to understand
that just a little bit. So the fact that that
Darryl told Emory to call up the then offensive coordinator
for Chuck Fairbanks, a guy named Barrius Switzer, and and
share the wishbone with him, just scratch your head and think,
(06:44):
did that really happen or because it just it seems unbelievable.
But it did, of course.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
And I guess you know, one thing I took away
from the documentary that I didn't really know Keith was
that man Daryl Royal was a was a nice guy.
I mean like a really nice guy, not only with
Oklahoma but also with Alabama. Of course, the nice guy
thing kind of definitely came back to bide him with
the success that Oklahoma had and how they kind of
(07:11):
took the whole premise and elevated it to a new
level with some of the players they had.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, you know, saying the film, that was the great
irony of the story is that is that Darryl shared
this twice and the offense was more powerful than his
ability to control it and so but Daryl was a
really super guy and you know, one of the great
coaches in college football history.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
We're talking to Keith Donovan. New series coming out on
the SEC network, SEC Story. It's called Wishbone. It'll be
out next week, right. We debut at.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Keith Thursday night on SEC Network at seven o'clock Eastern Time.
And of course they like to get their money worth
that at the ESPN network, so you will not be
able to avoided probably for the next six months.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
That's good. One thing that I knew that you would
hit on really hard was the role of Emory Ballard,
who I think has been you know, you're doing a
good job offsetting this, but a little bit lost to history.
And of course when you start to tell the Wishbone story,
that's kind of the origin, right Keith, it.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Is, and of course the desperation that we've talked about,
this is also a story about innovation and invention and
what Emory came up with. Emory, of course been a
successful high school coach. What he came up with was,
I mean, it's a stroke of genius and he's never
I think he got due at one point. But you know,
(08:41):
the time March is on, and I think he's been
a little bit lost to history. The full impact of
that story and his fingerprints on the entire era of
college football are pretty powerful, and hopefully in our story,
one of the things that across is that Emory Blard
(09:02):
gets his due as a as a real innovator in
kind of football.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
One of the things I found, just as a side note,
really interesting that you caught up with his wife and apparently,
like you know, she could go to the school down
the street and install the wishbone right now. She wanted
to do it seemed like, I mean, she she seemed
really involved with like she knew what she was talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Keith, Oh, absolutely absolutely. And of course Emory is a
ends up, you know, becoming ill and and with a
with a disease that a lot of Alabama people can
you know, are familiar with because of several Alabama players,
and and so it's a it's a sad story, but ultimately,
(09:42):
you know, Emory lives on in uh in the memories
of this film.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
So tell me we start out with you talking to
Bruce Arians, who's not exactly h readily associated with the Wishbone.
I mean if if you just told me to name
twenty people associated with the Wishbone, he wouldn't be one
of those. But why is he so connected to it
and why was he integral to this story?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Well, I'm gonna get my buddy Chip Breaths, the director,
the credit for that because, uh, we were talking. We're
sitting around one day and talking about that, and that
was Chip's idea, among many others. And the Chip is
a terrific storyteller and it's great to work with him
on this. The basically, of course, Bruce, a lot of
(10:25):
Alabama people would remember he was the element of offensive
coordinator back twenty five odd years ago. But of course
he went on to be a great Super Bowl winning coach.
He hee was a Wishbone quarterback briefly to Virginia Tech,
and so that kind of gives us the entree and
(10:45):
also allows us Bruce allows us to bring the coach's
element to it in terms of explaining it and connecting
it forward to you know, because the Wishbone in a
sense lived and things like the r p O today. Okay,
so uh, he brought that element to bear for.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Us and it really you know, you don't have to
be the biggest football fan in the world to see
some similarities between the offenses of the day and the
Wishbone if you if you look closely enough, right, I mean,
is there's a lot of that option d n A
in these offenses today.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah. I think college football or football in general is
kind of like Hollywood or television. Once something is successful,
people are going to copy it and uh and and
then they when they copy it, and then when it
becomes passe a or or they developed they're able to
uh to find a way to to stop it, then
(11:44):
they take elements of that and put it into something else.
So I think the reality of it is that that
that college football offenses there's there's a sort of an
organic nature. Uh if you go all the way back
that you know, one thing connects to the other to
uh one one offense becomes pass because you figure out
(12:04):
how to stop it. But then you you take this
part of the offense and you and you build it
into something else. And so that's one of the interesting
thing is about football is that it's this organic thing
that keeps evolving.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Keith Dunavan is the executive producer of the documentary Wishbone,
also the author of many books, including the UH Definity
biographies on Paul Bryant, Joe Montana, Bart Starr. You've been
around it a long time, Keith, in various forms of media.
What did you learn in doing this? Was there an
aha moment for you? I know that most of it
(12:40):
you would have already been familiar with, But was there
a moment where you're like, Oh, that's gonna be great
in this documentary?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
You know? Probably that's a really good question. Probably several things,
because you always learn something. But I think I think
I learned, for one thing that uh, the that the
the heartfelt feelings that a lot of people still have
for Amory Billard and the fact that his players, obviously
(13:11):
his wife others who felt like that he never kind
of got his due. And hopefully, I think I think
we all will have a really good appreciation for that
in this film. And as I said, one of the
things that I hope comes out of this film is
that is that Emory will get his due as a
college football innovator.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
You know, Keith, You're probably like me, like I can
watch a watch a game today and there could be
a ninety yard pass and I'm excited about it.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Or whatever.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
But man, when I watched that wishbone steel and the
quarterback gets right to the inflection point where what he's
going to do, it's almost like I'm on a roller coaster,
like when my stomach drops. You know. Do you have
that same sort of relationship to it.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Well, I do, and that's a really well put. And
the thing about it is, this was the offense my child. Yes,
And uh, you know, so I remember I remember the
seventies through the context the wishbone, like I remember the
seventies through the context of Steely Dan and you know,
and the Waltons and you know, all these other things
(14:15):
that were cultural touchstones. So the wishbone and the other
thing you know about the offense is that you know,
you had to, boy, you had to be toughest nails
as a quarterback to run this offense because you were
going to get clobbered if even if you didn't have
the ball. But you also had to be quick and
(14:37):
you had to you had to make really good decisions.
And so you know, for every body who talks about
all the skill that is required of all the modern
day fasters, and it's a completely different game in that respect,
I'm going to tell you something, those wishbone quarterbacks, Uh,
they had something special. Uh and of course you know
(14:59):
in Alabama talking about you know, guys like Terry Davis's,
Dedmond Sheeley and the two Rutlitches and Richard Todd and
all the others. Uh, they had something special and uh
they they did most of them, you know, didn't pass it,
you know, a mile. But of course the foot side
of that is is that if you, uh, if you
(15:21):
had a great a game breaker like an Ozzie Newsom,
you go get someone on one coverage. And Richard Todd
and Jeff Rutlinch they hit Ozzie with a few, so
uh it was also a great passing offense. They just
didn't pass it very often.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, you're absolutely right about that. You mentioned Terry Davis,
Keith he was, uh he was my first little league coach.
Like right after he graduated Alabama. He came to who
We're to coach my little league team?
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And I was like, Louisiana, I was like, this can't
be real.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Keith.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I was like that that guy's not a real person.
Like that's the quarterback at Alabama. What's he doing out here?
But uh, like you mentioned just this great touchstones from
your from your childhood for sure. Uh, just a great memories,
great memories of that.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Keith.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
The thing that one thing that strikes me from watching
Wishbone is that, you know, Texas wasn't immediately successful with
the first couple of games. I just started thinking, Wow,
what if they had started out like oh to eight,
you know, and fired Daryl Royal. Would we have even
had this documentary to make. Would we even know what
the word wishbone meant in a context of football?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Probably not. That's the you know, that's the thing about
about football as in life. Not to sound like a professor,
but you know, ambition is one thing, but you got
to take risks in life to get somewhere. And Darryl
understood that, and Paul Bryant understood that, and Chuck Fairbanks
(16:45):
understood that, and so the desperation led to the risk,
and the risk led to three really great eras uh,
three really good, great powerful programs during that era. So yeah,
what if and what if Paul Bryant had had had
failed with it miserably in nineteen seventy one.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah, even in that first game, if it had not
gone away, you'd be like this guy's lost his mind,
you know what's doing.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, and you think what exactly, and you think about,
h that was a very rudimentary bone at that point,
because you know, the did the Texas offensive coaches came
to they they met with the Alabama offensive coaches that
the old hop the day in across the river from Tusculution,
(17:35):
north side of Tuscalution, and the they crammed for three
or four days. And you know the reality of it
is they only that was a very rudimentary bone at
that point. Uh. And if Terry Davis doesn't soak that
offense up like a sponge mastering the read versus the pitch. Uh.
(17:57):
And if you don't have you know, guys like Johnny
Musso and Joe Blue and all the others, you know,
the things could have been very different. And of course,
the reality of it is, by about nineteen seventy three
that bone was much more sophisticated for Alabama. Of course,
by that point Oklahoma was just you know, was just
(18:19):
tearing it up. And so it was It's interesting that
I think in early on in seventy one, I think
Alabama was beating opponents well, first of all, the defense
became this is one of the untold stories in nineteen
seventy one. The defense with most of the same guys
(18:39):
was a ten times a better defense in seventy one.
So that was a huge help for Alabama because they've
been pretty horrible in sixty ninety seventy. But I think
one of the main reasons that they were able to
do as well as they did in seventy one is
the power of just being something new that they didn't
(19:00):
know how to defend. And so by the time they
became really a really sophisticated version of the woicebone Gosh,
by seventy three, Alabama was just about untouchable.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Mm hmmm. It's great stuff. And by the way, I
appreciate the fact that you fit it. You fit in
some chairway jerseys and should repads flapping in the air,
because again that's uh, that's my childhood too, Keith.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Oh absolutely, absolutely absolutely, But it's a it's a good
time to look back and at these three programs particularly
and also a little Mississippi State and in Texas A
and M and uh, I hope people will check it
out and uh, it's a uh, it's a powerful story.
I think that that UH looks back at UH at
(19:45):
a special time in college football history.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Keith, you guys knocked it out of the park. I
appreciate you taking a couple of minutes to talk to
us about it. And anytime you got something you want
to promote in the future, you know you can reach out.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
All right, Thanks Randy, you guys have a good day.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
There you go. That is Keith done of it. He
is the executive producer of this new SEC storied Wishbone.
It premieres on Thursday night on the SEC Network and
it is terrific. I've had a chance to watch it,
and I promise you it will not be a waste
of your time if you love football and love college football,
it is absolutely awesome. We appreciate Keick Donovant for being
(20:19):
with us there. Amri Ni Kennedy in the thread at
Fasteners Studio on Sports Talk ninety nine to five.
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