The Rich Conwell Show - October 11, 2025

Rich talks with Brian Cairns, PGA Teaching Professional at Fox Hills Golf in Plymouth, MI, about the ins-and-outs of teaching the game, his personal accomplishments, and more.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Rich Komwell Goof Show. This week we
are going to talk about actually we're just going to
talk to one individual, very very intriguing individual, incredibly good player,
incredibly good teacher and actually overall an incredibly good golf professional.

(00:21):
But we were joined this week by Brian Cairns. Brian,
thanks for coming on with us this week.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Thank you Rich for having me. I really appreciate it, you.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Bet, you bet so as I do with everybody. Brian,
go ahead and tell us how you got your start
as a youngster and all that fun stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
I was lucky enough to grow up at a club,
and my dad was born and raised in Scotland and
obviously golf was in his blood. They moved over here
obviously after the war. My dad was sixteen seventeen, and
I've had a club in my hand every since, you know,
since I was four or five years old, and just
you know, learn learn most of my information from golf

(00:57):
from my father and some of the gentleman that red
round Golf Club with one, including Chuck Koschis and some
other grades. And then moving on to high school and
college and met Eddie Fergell and Eddie Fergule gave me
the passion to become an instructor and become a golfer,
tournament golfer. Eviily and still Tourednament golf and me and

(01:19):
me joined the PGA of America at the age twenty
three as an apprentice and then membership when I was
twenty seven. Kind of took golf them there. So I's
always been to my soul.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
So let me ask this, okay, because for those of
you who do not know Ed Fergel was unbelievably good
player and again an unbelievably good golf professional. So tell
me what, tell me, tell me how he helped you.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
It's funny because I went to a junior academy still alive,
doctor Gary Wyron, who really inspired me to be a
golf professional. I traveled with Meg Mallan down to Meg's
from the Commerce area here and we traveled down and
went to a junior golf camp in nineteen seventy I
believe it was seventy eight, and it was in July.

(02:09):
Of course, it's one hundred degrees in Boca RATONEA. We're
playing Boca West. And as it turns out, Gary Wyron,
all these golf professionals who a lot of my I
still play with Roger Kennedy anyway, ran these golf schools
for US for a week long. And who was in
the bunker with me the day after he won US
Open was Andy North Wow and Andy Norris in the bunker.

(02:33):
I'm like, Hey, didn't you just win the US Opened yesterday? Yeah,
I'm here to help you juniors out. So I kind
of got me thinking. And then Gary Wyron would stand
up on the stage every night, you know, with his
plus fours on, and you know, I'd be nine ten
o'clock at night. Gary Wyron had no stopping them, and
I'm like, I looked at the kids sitting next to me,
and I go, I want to be that guy who

(02:54):
knows anything about architecture, golf game, how to play tournament golf,
how to teach the game, how to the bunkers. I mean,
he knew everything. I was like, Oh, this guy is cool.
And then Eddie Bergel showed up at a few of
our a few days and helped me with my short game,
and and I kind of grabbed down Eddie then and
met him down to Miami Beach Miami Shores. After that,

(03:17):
when I was in high school, and then obviously in
college at bar University.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Wow, So basically you just dove in the deep end,
that's what you did.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
I went and head first, like everything you know, you know,
like everything I've ever done, I'm meeting OCD compulsive and
addictive personality. I just dove right into it. And I said, oh,
I got to play I want to play golf. I'll
play terma golf. I don't know how to do this,
and I kind of learned it through through high school
and then college. I did it. And after college I

(03:47):
really dove into it. You know, a lot of substance
abuse on my behalf that that hindered my progress. But
I learned a lot from the guys, and you know,
and even you know, mister Koshis had read on who
is I'll give you one of the best amateurs ever lived.
Taught me a lot. I learned a lot of guys
from Red Run and it was free. They gave me

(04:09):
all this information for nothing, And I honestly didn't know
what I was getting at the time.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Right right, you have no idea what what what you're
hearing until you hear it a little bit later. It's
pretty amazing and it comes back and echoes back and
you're like, Wow, that's that's what he meant, because it's
funny you say that. As I talked to Chris Cheddar
about her talking with mister Hogan, and and and she
and she said, she's like, you know, even to this day,

(04:36):
I'm not sure I really knew what he was trying
to tell me. Like I I have an idea what
he's trying to tell me, but I don't know exactly. Like,
you know, he was talking to me about playing the
US Open, and she goes, and she goes, I finished second.
He won it four times, so he had a different
level of information. But but she was he was he
was like, you just gotta do it like a certain

(04:58):
and he said a couple of things, and she was like,
I don't think I'll ever really know what he's saying
to me. I have an idea what he's saying to me,
but I don't really know what he's saying to me.
And she goes. And then I kind of as I
got better and played a little bit and you know,
finished second, and you know, I want on tours. I
kind of understood what he was talking about, but I

(05:19):
don't think I'll ever really like you talk about like
diving head like we were talking before about diving head first.
She goes, I'll never get to his knowledge, like never,
like you'll never know, Like I mean as hard as
you can work with to learn what you know, Like
you'll never know what Gary dwyern knew or knows. No,
you won't, you won't and there's no way to do it.

(05:40):
And like and like you know that old saying he
forgot more than we'll ever know. That's true.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
That's very true.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
That's very true.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
So I think I think the way we were learning
is it's memorization. It's not learning. Because I always ask
these kids that I teach. I was like, okay, what
did you learn in school? Say well, his history testings,
Like did you learn it? What do you mean? If
you learn it, you own it forever, right, If you

(06:10):
memorize it, it's gone.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
It's nineteen twelve, it's the war in nineteen twelve. That's
what happened eighteen twelve. Man, that's war eighteen twelve. I
know that. I know that, but you don't know it.
You remembered it.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Right, But they don't know what happened demographically, what the
wars were? You know, you know, in the Great Lakes
there was a War of eighteen twelve, you know, so
it was it is a different thing of learning it.
And you know when when mister Hogan spoke and I
went up there to the Masters with mister Fergel the

(06:42):
first time when I was a freshman in college that
I heard Hogan, you know, two tables over speaking and
he was talking to the one plane two playing guy anyway,
and Hogan slammed his fists on the table because that's
not when I said, that's not what I meant in
the book. And you know, everyone just shut up and
turned their head and went Ogan's talking. Button's talking.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Everybody looks, everybody listens, yeah, because he.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
I mean, they learned the hard way. Unfortunately, I think
they learned the hard way. You know. They hit balls,
they went and experimented and okay, it went this way.
Well how did it look. It looked pretty good, actually,
you know, but that was from trial and error. They
learned it by feel and no field. No, if that
doesn't work, nope, ball, it's not doing what I want
to do. Let's try this. So they did it. They

(07:33):
did the hard work for all of us.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Right when the ball curves when the ball curve. Now
we just go we know what caused that. They didn't.
They just figured it out.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
It out, I mean, pergo.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
You know.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
I played nine o's with Eddie Fergo, me and Mike
sam Filippo, another great club bro, really really good club
bro Mike. But Eddie would say, wow, he just keep swimming,
he keeps swinging that club in that direction, keep getting
that resolved. And he never told you what it was, right,
He just made you know, smart ale of comments like that.
And that's kind of how they taught us. And I

(08:11):
had to kind of just seventy eight their information slowly.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, It's like it's like people people. I've heard the
stories of people playing. I think it was Andy North
playing a practice round with Hogan the US Open and
he said, does that bunker on the left come into play?
He's like, no, you aimed to the right of that.
Play to the right of that, like and he wasn't
like being mean to him, but it was like, dude,
why would you ask me a question like like, the
bunker's over there and you don't want to be in there,

(08:34):
so play over there and just you know, you know,
it's it's like, you know, can I run into that
telephone pole. Yeah you can, but you drive to the
left of that, you know what I mean, like driving
the road. But like it's common sense. But like when
they say it, it's like, oh my god, he's right, Well, I.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Would I ever think like that. I would ever think
like that When you can think like that. Uh, And
now we're spending the dollars a year on these mental
coaches to think like this. It's like, h I love that.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
Uh, duh, duh. All right, So you tried to play
after college, right, yeah, and like how far did you get?

Speaker 2 (09:17):
I mean, I want a couple of minutie tour events
Florida Tour, you know, and I'll beat Kimmy Young and
John Houston the playoff one year and I was like,
but not pretty good, never even getting close after that,
because again, I that was a heavy drinker and that
definitely got my way, you know, or sight in Nindsight's
twenty twenty. But I just thought the business in itself

(09:41):
was intriguing, and I started working at La Gorse after
college for mister R. Chuck Hurt and then jay Or Condon,
and then took a job at Miami Shores and the
country Club of Detroit and then learned the business. I
just knew I wasn't good enough at that point, and
then I don't learn the business. So I came to

(10:02):
Country Glove of Detroit, which is in gross Point, where
I don't know Palmer won in nineteen fifty four. US
am in a really cool place, and I learned the business,
and I was off and running the PGA.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
So what year was that in America?

Speaker 2 (10:17):
That was eighty nine, okay, nineteen eighty nine.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yep, okay. So you learn from all these guys and
you start to figure out, first of all, let's let's
before we get into like how good of a teacher
you are and all that stuff. But you even though
you said you know it wasn't good enough and stuff
got in your way, you're really good. Like you're really

(10:42):
good like.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
Some people say. But I just don't believe it. I
just like I don't know. When I played golf with people,
I understand how to play golf. I was taught how
to play golf. I was never taught how to swing
the golf club like mister Kaschier's had a pretty golf swing.

(11:04):
He was, you know whatever. He won everything in the
thirties forties fifties, he lay in Augusta and mister Coashier's
was my idol obviously being at Red Run, but I
mean we were taught to play golf and play golf
and curve the ball this way or that way to
avoid trouble or to get the whole locations at Red Run,
and that's kind of how I. I still play golf

(11:25):
and people just laugh that. You know, I qualify for
the National Club Grow again this year and they're like, well,
I don't know how you get it done. It's like,
I don't even think about how I do it. I
just try to get the ball to go over here.
Whether I hit a thinner, fat, it doesn't matter. It
goes over there and I'm happy with the result.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, that's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
How I think of myself. And it ain't pretty, but
it's kind of it's kind of working, weird how it
gets done.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
It's kind of working because it's funny because I talked
to I talked the Butch Harmon, I mean Claude Harmon's son,
and when he was at Oak Hill and he was like, yeah,
I was gonna play and I was going to play
and I couldn't get there, and so I took. He goes,
I went out with my dad. I said, listen, we're
gonna play this all the way back and we're gonna go.
And he goes, my dad is six, fifty eight years

(12:18):
old or whatever, and he's like, we go out and play.
He goes, I hit it farther than him. I hit
it higher than him. I definitely hit it farther than him.
He's fifty eight years old. And he said, we got done,
and he goes, I shot seventy from all the way
back and he shot sixty eight. And I said, how
do you do that? And he goes, I have it
and you don't. And he was like, he was like,

(12:39):
he goes, it hurts so much for him to say that,
But it was actually the facts of the case he had.
I didn't.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
I did.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
I couldn't do that. I get mattered how I had
it to him, It didn't.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, it was a gift that a lot of those
old timers gave me. It was their way of going, hey,
this is how you play golf. And I didn't believe
it until May ninety four, ninety five. Whatever. I was
EJ member in ninety four and then I played in
my first Club Pro and I should have won it.
You know, I'm here in Michigan and I didn't win it.

(13:11):
And Jeff Roff, a good friend of mine who's a
great champion in his own right in Michigan, won the
National Club Pro. He's like, dude, just do what you do.
Hit'll all over the place and chip and putte and
just get it done. And I and that was a
was a marquee moment in my life when he just
confirmed what I was taught as a kid. And I said, yeah,
this is how I play golf, not how somebody else

(13:33):
wants me to play golf. Yeah. That's is really key,
you know, And I take that seriously into my coaching.
It's like you got to ask the player, how do
you want to play golf? Do you want to play
pretty golf? Okay, we can make you swing pretty, play
pretty golf, but how do you really want to play
golf and score the way you want to score?

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah? You know, Yeah, that's that's interesting because that that
is true because I teach a bunch of young kids
and like they all, well, I hit farther, and I'm
like I don't care, like like like like once you
shoot like what was your number? Like, like you know,
like I tell him all the time, like I had
a good friend of mine played at Penn State and

(14:14):
I at play the best onund of golf in my
entire life. You guys should sixty seventy at four greens?
What do I care? What do I care? Like some
who's writing down that I hit four greens? Nobody, they're
writing down I shot sixty seven. That's what they're writing down.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
That's fascinating the kids all the time. You guys have
electric school boards at your high school tournaments or college tournaments.
Well it's electronics. Yeah on whatever golf stat or Brettie
fire or whatever the other ones I want. Are there
swings next to your golf course, like, oh my god,
I could have got unbelievable swing. Or they're just scores

(14:54):
next to your name, right, And if there's just scores,
then that's what you concentrate on.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
It's in your number. It's clinical, it's the number.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
All we're accountable for is our scores.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, yeah, you know that's that is so very, very
very true. It's just that's fascinating to me. That's that's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
So okay, stuff that sitting in front of us. The
track bands in the video camera and that's it's cloudy.
It's cloudy.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah, you're you're a big tech guy.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
Are you. I see in straight lines, and I'm very
linear at some point, you know, and a lot of
the students that come into this bay are very linear.
And James Pidi deal with my stuff. I work with
them all this morning. But and he's like, just just
just give me the just just give me the dummy
down version, you know. So it's stee. You really have

(15:49):
to know how your students learned before you can start
talking about it. But it helps them, you know, if
they can see just one or two bits of technology
that can earned what I'm saying to him.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, Okay, when we come back from this commercial, we're
going to talk a little bit more about about your
playing and your teaching, and we're going to talk about
the PGA of America in general. This is the Rich
Comwoll Golf Show. Welcome back to the Rich Komboll Golf Show.
I'm pleased to be joined by Brian Cairns this week.
Brian's from Michigan and is in Michigan right now, and

(16:23):
an extremely good teacher, an extremely good player, but I
want to talk to you about your your playing a
little bit. Brian froming it. What is your biggest win
in your head? What's your biggest win?

Speaker 2 (16:38):
I think that believe well, I want to I want
a bunch of bigger events. But you know, when you
win a national event like a series event down in Florida,
you know, with one hundred and ten guys in it
with a pretty good field, I'd say that's in. I
won three or four of those. But I think me
win Michigan pg and getting my name on the trophy

(16:59):
with Walter Hagen, ed Fergal, Jimmy de Meritt, I think
will always be my biggest win. The Michigan PGA on
section event would be my biggest, and you know, winning
National Senior Player of the Year obviously, but I did
that because I played in champions Tour events and I
just had to accruit more points than anybody else. It's
kind of an unfair advantage that I had. But I

(17:22):
think that the the Michigan PGA Championship ninety six I
wonted my first one, was my biggest and probably will
always be my biggest win. I won four won for
those section championships in Michigan and a lot of match
plays because I was good at match play, because.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
I didn't care where it went. You're just gonna figure
it out to it in the hole.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah yeah, that kind of you know, kick people off
that I could make parts from anywhere. But you know,
winning the section championship always went, Okay, I'm the best
among my peers this year, right, And I took a
lot of pride in that, and I still do.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, I would think so, I would think, so, what
eight this year.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
In the section? I'm like, man, there's a bunch of
kids that hit it eighty yards eighty ninety yards by me.
It's like, dang, he did it so far, and I
can finish eighth in the section. All right, that's a
pretty good test. That was a pretty good that's a
pretty good event.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, that's a pretty good run right there. What who
who's the best player you ever played with in the
Michigan section?

Speaker 2 (18:29):
In the Michigan Section, you know, I would have to
say Lynn Janssen.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
Lynn Jansen obviously went to the U of M and
was very successful Michigan State, sorry, Michigan State, and he's
played in multiple PGA's, multiple US opens. These guys did
him and Randy Urskin did it. These were kind of
the guys that I grew up with idolizing in Michigan.
But Randy had or Lynn had all the game. He
had the length. He's a big guy, obviously, but man,

(19:00):
he had this ladies putter, not ladies, but a putter
that we wouldn't put with, a long blade ping putter
that made he made everything for a big guy, and
he pitched it well. And he was a head pro
at Green Green Rich Country Club which became Egypt Valley.
And Lynn still to this day is a general giant,

(19:22):
a nice man, and someone I looked up to in Michigan.
I think, obviously the best player playing at that time,
but obviously Chuck Koshi is probably the best player that
ever came out of Michigan, I think, And I, you know,
and got to see mister Koshier's play, but he was
in the seventies by that time when I got to
see him play golf.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
Did you play with Erskine?

Speaker 2 (19:43):
I still play with Erskin, Yeah. Yeah. Randy's just the sweeter,
the nicest guy in the world, such a nice man.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
Because I was talking to I was talking to because
I had Dave Kendall on here, and Kendall was telling
me about playing with He said, Erskine never ever, ever, ever,
no matter what happened to him, got a bad break
on the golf course. Ever, didn't matter, what didn't matter
what happened. It was not him. It wasn't a bad break.
He's like, all right, it's just over there. I had

(20:11):
to go over there and do it.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
He's just like the just like that nice mild manner,
gentleman on the golf course. And you know, God rest
Dave Kendall. Yeah, okay, what a great man what he
did for Michigan golf. And I mean for me, you know,
Dave mentored me, you know, in a lot of areas
in the business and how to act.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, Dave was big with that. He he that came
through loud and clear. He he, it was louder he.
I never ever ever wanted anybody to be embarrassed to
know me. I always wanted to be proud of how
I was.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
I was like, oh dang, yeah, I can't say enough
about Davy. Saved the golf course here in southeast Michigan,
washt It was going to go to grass, it was
going to go to whatever condo color would you make.
Dave saved it. COVID hit but that's you know, Dave
saved Michigan golf. He really, he really did. He was

(21:08):
president on the boards and ran through all the seats
and he gave way more than he got. You ever
took you that much?

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah, so okay, so talk to me about Okay, so
you're a good player, but you kind of settle in
on teaching, right, okay, So so tell me, like that's
kind of you just kind of have to decide like
what you want to teach or do you just kind

(21:38):
of say, Okay, what's this, what's this person have, what's
that person have?

Speaker 2 (21:43):
Like, let me back it up kind of rich. It's
like everything I've done in my life, I kind of
thinking about this who it has been? By default? I
became a golfer because that's all I knew about whatever.
A degree in theology and the master's in theology. But
you know, at the end of the day, it's like,
I can't be a school teacher. You've done to be

(22:03):
a school teacher, I can't do this. And I became
a golfer because I worked a laborious and I am
sure as anything. Looks up here on the golf course,
I can get the golf business. Got work really working
on the register. I can do this. And then I
worked at private clubs up here in Michigan, and I
just didn't like the whole routine working at the club.
And then was able to finally teach and I'm like,

(22:26):
I can do this, and I help some people and
they had success. I'm like, I can actually coach somebody
be a better golfer. I'm like, this is great. And
then having all that Gary Wyren information in the back
of my mind and seeing how he was, I mean,
I revered him and still revere him because that's the
guy I want to always be. And then going to

(22:48):
so many seminars and so many learning about how to
swing a golf club or how to score, how to
do this, how to do that. I guess that's a culmination.
After my last job in two thousand and three, I
was kind of washed out from a club and I
didn't get the job, and I really it really bruised
my ego not getting the job. But then I bought

(23:09):
a range and really worked the range hard, and go,
I can do this. I can teach, and you know,
I had a philosophy of my own that I kind
of adopted. But like you said, okay, what do you
want to do? And I remember John Trauv, a good
friend of mine, a national club professional champion for Michigan here,
asked me one day and I'm kind of scruffy, half

(23:30):
beer at half not shaved. He goes, what do you
want to do? You need to make up your mind,
and that kind of was a swift kick in the pants.
I'm going, okay, very do a deep dive in an
instruction or clean up your act and go get the
job at a club. And I decided to go into instruction,
and that was really the fighting mark in two thousand

(23:51):
and three of gone head over heels in this direction.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, that's isn't an interesting how people say things do
and it changes everything. But like, hey, did you do
you see what you're look look at yourself like what
are you doing? Like, hey man, what are you doing?

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, you're waffling? What are you doing? You're not doing this,
you're not doing that. What do you want to do?

Speaker 1 (24:11):
Yeah, we're pretty we're pretty confirmed with what we're not doing,
but we're not confirmed what we are.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Doing, right, And that's it. I guess everybody can see that,
like clear as day, except us as people, and even
to this day that I coach some people that are like,
what can you not doing this? I'm like, yeah, how
come we're doing that? You're right? You know a lot
of them are the vets? They give me that information. Yeah,

(24:38):
And it's like because they see things so black and white,
these guys, you know, life or desk situations, and they
see these simple things that we're struggling with that seem
like monumental things that are so simple to them, like
how come you just don't take this world? Why do
you keep going down this road with bottles? What are
you doing right? Right?

Speaker 1 (24:56):
It's just it's just like the whole the whole bunker
thing with Hogan, Like no, I just playing the right
of that man, playing the right of that. I don't
understand why would you even ask that question? Like how
do you not see that?

Speaker 2 (25:08):
I was directed in that. And then obviously the success
with my plane once I got the confidence and it,
you know, my pitching and chipping, which I've always been
prideful love, but I kind of dug that as a dirt,
so to speak, all my jobs I got there at
four thirty five o'clock in the morning and putted for
two hours. I just believe putting was the only thing

(25:29):
I could do because it was dark. I can put
in the dark ten footers you can see the ball going.
But besides, that has based everything off of the whole backwards,
and that's kind of the way I've taking my instruction on.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah, that's so so like. Okay, so let's talk about
that for a second. So how how how cool do
you think Operation thirty six is?

Speaker 2 (25:53):
Start brilliant, really brilliant that you draw the line in
the sand and say, listen, we got to get for
fishing at doing this. And you know, I don't know
why that's not just the way it is, and everybody
doesn't believe in that. He can't teach a beginning to
get the ball up in the air unless they know
how to roll up the ground first. You know, he

(26:17):
can't teach a kid to walk unless they crawl, I guess.
And it's the same way in golf. And that's what
I believe in. And you know, you got hold of
a lot of these aides teaching these kids. Okay, we've
got to roll the ball first, and then we can
chip the ball up in the air and then we
can swing the ball and get it up in the air.
So Operation thirty six is brilliant, it really is.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
That's cool. That's cool. So how much how much of
your time is spent with kids?

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Eighty two percent? It's funny. The people here at Heritage
Golf asked me that the other day. They own Fox
Sills and about thirty other properties, and they asked me
how much time you spend them with the kids? As
I got about the you know, I got an exact percent,
and it was like ninety one percent of the time.
And the rest is some adults that's struggle in but

(27:10):
pretty OCD about developing kids and being patient with kids
and you know, having you know, I lean on some
of the kids. You can lean on some of the
kids you can't. But you know, the kids that really
want to do a deep dive and playing college, you
can really take your time with them. And it's it's
not about money. It's never been money about the money
about me. You know, maybe that's my biggest fault is

(27:32):
a bad business, pardon person. But I really enjoy the
journey taking a kid from how many kids I got
in division, I schools last fifteen twenty years has been
I just had to think about it, but it was
quite a few, and even the Division two of the
three kids, it doesn't matter. They have a process of

(27:53):
understanding development and then patience, frustrations and how to work
the way to it through mental processes or through other processes,
physical processes that will help them in anything they do
in life. And I tell them that right in the beginning,
when they're twelve or thirteen, says this is going to
help you the rest of your life. Whether you know
it or not. Yeah, it was. It was conveyed to me.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, I do. I I for a couple of years,
I coached a Division two team in Wheeling, West Virginia,
and I used to tell the parents when I said listen,
I said, you know, I brought kids over from Indonesia,
you know, in New Zealand. And I'm like, look, and
I tell their parents like, here's what's going to happen.
They're going to come over here. I promise you in

(28:36):
four years they'll get a degree, they can get a
job with number two, nothing bad will happen to them
when they're here. Number three, they'll be a better person
than they walk than they will be when they walked in.
And number four, they might get better at golf because
the thing of it is is is by the time
I get you from in. You know, if I get
an eighteen year oh kid from Indonesia, I can get

(28:56):
them better. I'm pretty confident myself. I'm arrogant enough to
think that. But the flip side of it is, it's
really important for me to make sure the kid gets
his business degree because because you know, chances of him
playing the PGA Tour, Yeah, how about none?

Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yep. Yeah, it's very it's very minute. And I tell
these kids when they come in here in the twelve
or thirty Okay, we got to write a bio and
we need a video. We need to attach it to
your bio. We're going to add and we're going to
subtract from that bio as we go forward, and as
we go through this, there's journey together. And I remember,
it's your journey. It's not my journey. So everything that
you think you know, you don't know. And everything I

(29:35):
ask you to do, I don't want to know the answer.
You tell me when you come to your answers, but
don't tell me the struggles in between. I'll help you,
but I'm not going to give you all the answers.
It's self discovery that find these answers. But it's funny
when you get these kids to create their own bio
and they see after about three years, like i'mon like

(29:56):
the eight tournaments in three years, I'm like, yeah, h
stage that you've gone to. You've kind of won tournaments,
and that's kind of what you do. You develop and
you get better and better, and you win golf weeks
and you win agagas and you win a college tournament
and then you maybe you won a many tour event
and so on and so forth. But to attract these
kids and keeping themselves accountable, do.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
You and you don't have it? I'm assuming I'm just
going to ask for a little trade secret here. How
much trouble do you have with Parents's.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
The reason I have a lock on the door and
I will meet the parents inside my bay one time.
Now it's a female or it's a younger younger male,
I would ask for a parent to be there at
all times, right, so there's no communication, there's no you know,
I'm obviously the day and age, and we have to
be careful But besides that, I just really don't want

(30:49):
the parents there unless I'm doing a summary of where
we are and where we should be, and the parents
are the biggest problem with development of their own children.
But having said that, you know, a parent always apologizes
when they're sixteen. Now, I kind of screwed up, and
I said, you did screw up with your kid. You
did the best you could. I'm a parent too, and

(31:11):
believe me, I freaking screwed up a lot with my kids.
I mean, dang, and I regret every time I lay down.
I told my kids this when you're twelve or thirteen,
don't ever beat yourself up for not doing a good
enough job with your kids at that moment. History did
the best job you could. Whether it's in golf or
you know, baking a cookie or I.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
Don't care, a homework man exactly, yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
Or a homework don't ever beat yourself up. You were there,
You're a present, right. Just be happy with that.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, that's hard.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
That's very hard as a parent to take that non
guilt position with their children. It yet to make sure
that they're getting everything they need to succeed. And it's
not about money, No, it's never about money with me.
I just I mean, I had a social education when
I grew up that not everybody can get. I saw

(32:05):
the gamblers, and I saw the you know, I saw
every avenue around the game of golf, the gamblers, the
guys that played for fifty cents, the guys played for
ten thousand a hole. I mean, I saw everything. I
got the I got the education, I got to see
what the game was all about, but it was still
about just playing golf at the end of the day.
And having said about the parents, the parents, they said,

(32:29):
do the best they can, but I think they're unreal
expectations of their own children are their biggest is their
biggest problem? Yeah, And I can just strip it back
from parents and say, well, there's a Division two player. Yeah,
but you're shooting in the sixties and junior golf tournament.
So I'm like, but you're playing sixty four hundred yard

(32:50):
golf courses. We go to Division two, they're playing seventy
two hundred are golf courses with the flagsticks four cases
from the right or left, and this is the Division
two golf Mension one golf course. They are harder than
the PGA Tour.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Right, right, go down to Columbus and tee it up there.
When when Michigan and Illinois come and that's going to
be a different world. That's a different world.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
I couldn't believe it. And I really didn't realize it
until James went to Michigan State committed there as a
sophomore nigh school to go to Michigan State and played
in some tournaments and you know, shooting two three under,
I'm like, of course, kind of stink. And then I
went to saw some of the golf courses. God, yeah,
every holds three from the edge. I'm like, what are
they doing to these kids? Well, no kidding, these kids

(33:36):
can come out of college and win tour events.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
Right, Okay, when we come back, we are going to
talk about what's next for you and what you think
that is next for the PGA of America. This is
the rich Comonwell Golf Show. Welcome back to the rich
Comonwell Golf Show. We were joined buy with Brian Carens
this week. Brian as a Michigan PGA Hall of Famer

(34:02):
and a Michigan Golf Hall of Fame member. And those
things don't come, they don't happen just because you got
Ed McMahon to knock on your door. They're all very
well earned and and something that I think, Brian, you
should be very proud of. And we're going to go

(34:23):
back to kind of the beginning here when you talked
about becoming a PGA member in ninety was it ninety
three you told.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Me a member? But yeah, I started the apprentice program
in eighty nine. It took me a while to get
through it because I.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Was because you're, because you were you, because you were you. Congratulations,
you're you. So talk to me about Okay, excuse you
and I have kind of had some interactions about the
PGA of America, and I think we share frankly embarrassment
over the Ryder Cup. But let's go past that. Where

(34:56):
do you think the PGA of America is failing? It's
member professional? Which would be you, would be me, would
be anybody we could name.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
I don't know that you know in a discussion, I
guess rich and I we have later in our career
that I held I heard older PGA members older older
than me, that were members at my same stage. I
was obviously twenty years younger. ERNU. PGA just doesn't do
anything for me. And I really didn't know what it

(35:26):
meant because I was playing in PGA Championships and I
was playing in senior you know, in the playing in
senior PGA's and Senior US Opens. I'm like, this is crazy, man,
How can you not like the PGA. I get to
do this and do that. But fundamentally, I mean in
my profession, if I didn't go and dig it out
of the dirt and go watch Bobdowsky teach when I

(35:49):
was in college, or Eddie Fergel or elves Link or
you know, listen to mister Hogan speaker, you know, seeing
Jack Croud as a kid watching them teach, I I
probably wuldn't have learned anything to the PGA of America,
to be honest with you. I mean, I think we
went through the best time with the business schools. We
got pretty good instructors. Mimber, Mike Hebron was there, and

(36:13):
some other grade and stuff. Butch did some schools and
McClean did some schools, and I was like, now it's
not doing anything for me anymore outside the fact that
I can play in the Senior PGA or national club grow.
And I'm not embarrassed to say that but I think
it's a call to action to the PGA of America

(36:34):
to stand up and say, what are we doing for
our twenty five thousand It was paying members And if
we're not doing that, then what do we really need
to do here? Because it's gotten too big, it's gotten
too fat, it's gone in the wrong direction, and I
think we saw it. It was just a tip of
the iceberg. What we saw, which I believe is just

(36:56):
a tip of the iceberg, which really going on down
there in Frisco is just a loss of control of
the game of golf, and it's disconnect from Frisco, Texas
to Bay six at Fox Hills. It's a billion miles apart.
I might as well be at Mars teaching golf because
the pg of America isn't relevant to my business at all. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
My big, my big problem is, and I have I've
had this conversation with with people, is that is that
we are the only we are the only organization association
that you could come up with that were actually self
proclaimed experts. See, like, you're an expert at it because
you've done it and you've worked it and you've dug

(37:41):
it out of the ground, like and I'd like to
think I worked pretty hard. But the fact of the
matter is, you get a guy today that can, that can,
and I'll not picking on them, but I mean shoots
eighty one eighty one or eighty one eighty seventy eight
or superscores four playing ability tests, and he can. Actually,
he never has to work for a class a member

(38:03):
of the PGA of America. He has to he has
to pay them a lot of money to go down
Frisco to listen to them, tell them how great life's
going to be in a year or two. But then
in the year or two comes it's like, hey, by
the way, life ain't that good? Well, wait a minute,
what'd you put into it? Like I drove, I drove
to Naples, Florida, from North Carolina to watch Lous Smithers

(38:25):
and Dave Malone talk about stuff you know and like,
and like, I worked for a guy for five years
that would look at me and go, no, we're gonna
do it that way, because that's how you do this.
Now we can just just pick our pick our poison
and say, hey, I'm a I'm a PGA member.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
I don't know, I don't know what that means anymore.
I mean, we are not stewards of the game. We're
not protectors of the game. And god forbid that we
use the line that bring this for the embedded into
the game. This organization is not in this for the
impediment of the game. I'm not sure what they're in
it for. R really don't and whether you want to

(39:10):
get in the political end of it. Profit not for profit.
Ryder Cup not Ryder Cup, PGA championship. Profit's not trickling
down to us. It doesn't you can sell the Ryder Cup.
I don't care. I'm not going to see the money anyway.
I don't see it right now. And it's not about
seeing the money. It's about me getting twenty guys together
and just having a coaching for them, you know, and

(39:32):
just talking about golf or how do you do this? Well,
how do you do this? I'm not stealing your students,
You're not stealing my students. We're trying to help people here, right,
And that's what I really believe. And it's a dog
eat dog world. That's kind of what it's come down to,
because it's just another political organization. That's all the PGA is.
And I'm not sure why they exist. You take the

(39:53):
tournaments out of the equation. What are we good for?
What do we stand for? Because our mission statement certainly
has been long lost lost obviously after nineteen sixty eight
or seventy, whenever the tour a separated from us, gone
are we doing now?

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Right? We we spent? We spend. And then the other
thing is when we do come up with an idea
that actually is good for the game, we butcher it
both like PJ HiPE, we go, by the way, this
is a great idea. So you know, we're gonna put
all this money over here, and we're going to give
Brian you know whatever, five hundred bucks to teach these guys,
and we're going to take you know, we're gonna give
Rich five hundred bucks to teach these guys. And oh,

(40:34):
by the way, next year we won't teach those guys.
But you know, we don't have the five hundred dollars anymore.
But it's like, wait a minute, that was that?

Speaker 2 (40:45):
That really? And obviously yesterday we played in the fundraiser
and Michigan nice excuse me, seventy two holes, but trying
to raise you know, twenty five to thirty grand to
find our whole program for next year because we can't
expand it because it was cut because it was either
overfunded or now that it's underfunded, whatever way you want

(41:06):
to look at it. We have a CFO that disbelieve
it is overfunded, which I disagree. No program that helps people,
believe me. I saw this program help people, and they
help me, These veterans help me. So I have a
personal attachment to this program, and for it to be

(41:27):
cut is is well. I don't care you call political suicide.
It's it's wrong. It's not going to die in Michigan
on my on my watch. So I've got to get
guys together to Copley seventy two olds. Let's raise twenty
five thirty grand so we can have AP programs next year,
because there's people literally put on their calendar next year

(41:47):
here at Fox Hills. I got PGA hoped these six
weeks right, And if it means that much to them,
it's whatever. It's two three four hours out of my
time the week. That makes a lot of sense to
me personally and to these persons, these people, it means
the life the world to them.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
Honestly, Yeah, I know, I get people drive for two
hours they drives.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Far as the funding cuts, as far as the punding cuts,
I'm like, what, so, what are we doing this for?
What are we doing anything for if we're cutting funding
to help our members? Because after this program, I everything's
going to be self funded in Michigan. I hope. I
don't want to have to reach my hand out to
National PGA and say, hey, we need help doing this.

(42:34):
Mm hmm, I'm doing it Michigan. We're going to get
it done in Michigan. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
See, I think I think that's where. I think that's
really where this is going to end up going. I do,
I do. I think it's gonna end up going. Like
I don't know how. I don't know. I don't know
how your section works. But I've been told the Try
State Section we are to send all of our money
to nationals and they send it back to us. Like,
so we host host junior tour event we're supposed to spend,

(43:03):
we send all the entry fees to FRISCO and they
whatever they do with it, and then they send it
back to us. Well, I haven't been paid in ninety days.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
What I do disagree with it? I said the end
for the Michigan section began when we handed over our
checkbook and was like, oh, come on, it's not that bad.
I'm like when they they'd be like, the state's controlling
our budgets, how good is the indifederal government of controlling
their budgets, let alone the state's control in their own budgets.
And then whatever states, cities, townships, so on and so forth.

(43:39):
Nobody does a good job controlling their budget. Well, we
do in Michigan, because I told oried executive director, if
you ran our section like they do it national, you
would not have a job. We do a good job
in Michigan. Kevin Humps does an unbelievable job. Dustin phillips
A tournament. Are tournaments do an unbelievable job keeping our

(44:04):
Michigan PG straight and narrow and go in the right direction.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Did you guys, did you guys hand your checkbook over
to them?

Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yep? All forty one sections now have their checkbook going
through in the national PGA. And you know, whatever the
flavor of the month is, Golf genius, whatever, blue golf,
whatever it is, Well, wait a minute, it's going to
cost us forty grand to do it. Yeah, because you
have to oh, Okay, we'll do it. Huh. Yeah, that's
not autonomous. We have to do what they say we do,

(44:36):
or you're not going to get your your funding. I'm
like you, I want to get to a day where
I don't need your funding anymore. Give me the Michigan
PGA standalone.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
Yeah, I think. I think that's got to be the
only because I don't know. I don't know either that
or either that or we actually just put the full
core press on and go to nonprofit and just trying
to go for profit and just just just run it
like I mean, like, well, I still don't understand how
in the world we cannot have a national healthcare.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
Certain you would think. I mean, I ask any insurance agent,
would you like to have five thousand people automatically on
your lap you write it, you say, Oh my god,
the deal you'd get, it's unbelievable. I'm like, yeah, why
is this so hard? Oh, that's a Norman. I mean
here it comes back to this word in Norman, which
we the PGA of America has no idea what that
word means. Obviously we can go round and around about that,

(45:28):
but I don't know what it means, and they just
act subjectively or by themselves and make up their own
minds and what they think it means. But they really
don't represent our interest when they subjectively make a statement
without deep dive investigations and whether what they're doing now

(45:51):
with this firm in New York is going to get
it done or not, which I don't honestly trust anybody
up there or down there in Frisco right and to
give us the right answers. So we have to go
on a different avenue and try to get forensic reviews
of the financials which were being handcuffed or being told

(46:12):
not to do.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, and that's it. That's the other thing. The other
thing is like I I just don't. I asked Derek Sprague,
that's CEO, about about something and he actually called my
executive director. He's like, you know, he's calling me about
I'm like, first of all, Derek Sprague, the CEO this
company works for me. He does, and my executive director

(46:34):
really works for me.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
Yep, Well they do, but they don't.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
Well the way they set it up they don't. But
but but in real world they do.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
In the real world on paper, yes they do. But
you know your eds at your state level now work
for national which you know is another discussion. But anyway,
the way the governance, this is the PG of America
right now is outdated. It has gotten lost. The whole

(47:08):
process has gotten lost in this fat bureaucratic mess in Christco, Texas.
It's just a bunch of stones and glass buildings down
there with a bunch of empty ideas not going the
right way.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Yeah, there's no there's no uh, there's no clothes on
the emperor. Nope, Brian, I'll tell you what. I hate
to do this, but fifty two minutes flies by, man,
so you're done. See it wasn't that hard. I appreciate
first of all your honesty. Second of all hanging out
with me for an hour. It's always fun talking to you.
It's always fun talking to you.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
I appreciate it, all right.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
And and later on in the year, I'm probably gonna
I'll send you a copy of this show. But later
on the year, maybe we'll catch up and see what
you're doing coming out of actually coming out of spring.
Does that sound good?

Speaker 2 (47:57):
Yep, we'll do.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
Thank you, Brian, Thanks tons. I appreciate this is the
rich Come we'll go show