October 28, 2025 • 48 mins
Dick Smith Jr., PGA Professional at Out Door Country Club in York, PA, joins Rich to discuss the importance of mentorship for younger professionals looking to get into the business. Plus, the future of the business, the impact Dick's dad had on the PGA of America, and more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Rich Kalmonell Golf Show. As we move
into boy almost November and it gets colder and colder
in the Northeast, things are starting to slow down the
golf operations. But I I want to thank my guest
for coming on this week. This is a We are
(00:24):
joined by Dick Smith Junior, who is a PGA professional
in York, Pennsylvania, has an incredible, incredibly good golf story
and I have a little bit of a personal connection
with Dick's father. But so first off, thanks for thanks
for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Oh my pleasure, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You bet so. As I start with everybody, tell me,
tell me how it all started for you in the
game of golf.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Well, you mentioned my father. I mean I grew up
in a golf family. So I have a father who
passed away two years ago, but he was a fifty
five year PGA member and my uncle who is still living,
he's a fifty five fifty six year PGA member. So
I grew up around it and was never forced into it.
(01:17):
But that's all I've known since I can remember hanging
out the golf course, you know, trying to drive a
golf cart before I was allowed doing all that fun
stuff and eventually just just got into the business started running,
you know, running clubs and cleaning clubs and picking range
(01:38):
balls and doing all that stuff. That's all I've known
since since I was ten, twelve, thirteen years old.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
That's awesome. So so for those who do not know,
Dick's father was the is the former is a past
president of pg of America and incredibly respected. And say
this because you're on the radio with me, because he's
been incredibly respected forever, incredibly respected. PGA professional has never, ever,
(02:08):
ever been anything but the ultimate definition of professional and courteous,
kind and class. I've only met him a few times,
I've speak several times. And you know, so where did
you where was where were your formative years?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Now?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Obviously I know you're cleaning, cleaning clubs and picking range
balls and things like that, but as you turn professional, like,
where did you work?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, I mean I went to work for him and
for at first as an assistant while I was a
back room and then worked my way up to be
as assistant at Woodcrest Country Club in Cherry Hill, New Jersey.
You know, I played high school golf. I didn't want
to go to college I wasn't the school type, so
(02:57):
I just went to work and I would hang out
at the club all day work when I needed to practice, play,
do whatever, and that was that was kind of what
I did. And lucky enough, like you said, my father
was president of the PGA, he was traveling, we were
(03:17):
covering for him at the club, and then when he
left office nineteen ninety two, he wound up leaving Woodcrest
to go build Galloway National Golf Club down the Jersey
Shore with a group of guys, and I was lucky
enough to get the head professional job at Woodcrest, So
when he left, I was there for eighteen years after
(03:39):
he left there, So that's kind of where I spend
most of my time and from about twelve thirteen years
old till I left in God, I remember when it
was twenty fifteen or twenty.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Sixteen, right, So Smith was on the payroll for forever
and ever and ever at Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
This that's where at Woodcrest for almost over thirty years. Yeah,
So that was a big part of our family and
our life.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
That's that's unbelievable. So all right, so you learn from him,
and you and you do and you learn the golf business.
And I realize everybody has a view of the golf business,
but like, how did ad I'm gonna talk about your
dad for a second. How did he learn to be
that professional? Like I know you are too, but I mean,
(04:27):
like I'd like to think I'm somewhat like that, But
how did he learn to do that?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well? I think I think it's the way we all
do it. Rich you've done it, We've all done it.
We surround ourselves with the right people, and we're fortunate
enough to go to work for some good people. I mean,
he grew up in Baltimore, met some folks down there,
and one of the gentlemen that took him kind of
under his wing a little bit to John by him
(04:55):
and Dick Hendrickson, who a lot of people in our
area will know. He They became great friends, and he
mentored him and kind of my father up and moved
to Philadelphia, took his first job and worked for some
very highly respected golf pros in his early time. I
(05:16):
don't remember a lot of their names, but they were
great golf professionals in the Philadelphia area. And that's kind
of how you did it, how you learned it back then,
you work for the right people. They they mouledj In,
mentoredj In and told you, you know, talked to you
the right way to do it. And I think we
respected those people and we listened to them, and when
(05:39):
they told you to do something, you did it and
you learn from it. So that's kind of where he went,
you know, from And then he got involved in PJA
politics and again surrounded himself with the right people. And
he wasn't the only person doing it. He listened to
a lot of people and it was a team and
(06:00):
people made him look good. But you gotta trust people
around you.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah, that's interesting because you know, I was, I was
thinking about this this morning because I knew we would
eventually talk about this or at some point during our conversation.
But you know, one of the one of the big
pushes in the in the golf business now or in
the last five years or so maybe ten, has been
like this mentor thing. And and I think it's a
I think it's a I think it's an overused term.
(06:29):
I think it's just go to work for somebody, you know,
go to work for somebody and and and watch how
they do things, and then and then maybe just maybe
you know, let's say there's ten things, nine that they
do really well and one you're like, I can do
that better, but I'll try to do these nine just
as well, and that just turns you out that much better.
(06:51):
And I just I just don't. I think I think
we make it. I guess maybe what I'm saying is
I think we make it too complicated.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, I think I think we do. And I think
in nature of I think the people that are coming
out today and the kids that are coming out today,
when we were coming out and getting into the business,
that was just the norm. We took it all in.
(07:19):
We absorbed it, we watched it, we listened. We wouldn't
I wouldn't think to any of the golf professionals that
I worked for to tell them no, or tell them
I think I could do it better. I listened, and
I just took it all in. And these kids today,
in my opinion, they come in and they think they
know more than they do. And I think that's why
(07:42):
you're getting back to the need and people using that
mentor where I was at the Philly Section meeting on
Monday and they're said they're coming out with a big
mentor program in twenty twenty six, and I thought the
same thing. I said, it's just what we do every day.
I think it's the it's the young kids today don't
(08:06):
know any better, and they're coming in gung ho, whether
it's what they've been taught or the college that they
come from or whatever, and they think they know more
than they really do, and they should just sit back
and take it all in from some of the great
golf professionals that could go to work for.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, it's interesting to say because I was remember sitting
at the merchandise show in the hotel room and I
was talking and I was working for Tom Trophy at
Williams for a country club, and then I was and
he was sitting in his hotel room with Carter Murkison,
who would forever and ever in Florida was a great player,
great golf professional. And they're they're sitting there talking about
a format like that nine hole match around, because that
(08:40):
had just come out, you know, that nine hole match
around for remember guests. And I'm sitting there, I'm thinking
to myself, you know, and like I remember, I got
up all this nervous, say can I ask a question?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
You know?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
And I think and they were like, yeah, well, you know,
like you know how to avoid a tie and you
know how all this stuff. And I was just like,
I just an idea, and I thought thought they should.
I would ask the opportunity to share my idea. But today,
like you wouldn't even I mean, and I'm not beating
on people. I'm just stating facts today, and you wouldn't
even have that conversation, like you would just say, well,
(09:15):
we'll do it that way. Wait a minute, man, what
are you talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yeah, I think it's a little bit on both sides.
I mean, I've had the fortunate a chance in my
career and my life with the people my father has
gotten to know and introduced me to to sit around
some tables with some people that I've just been in
all with and to listen to them talk and they
(09:40):
The one big piece I've taken away from some of
the great people I've been able to have conversations with
is they include everybody. It's not just them dictating down
or steering the conversation. It's it's inclusive. And I think
you get that a lot of that. You get some
of these kids coming out of some of these PGM
programs at all today that just think they they know more,
(10:04):
they expect more, or are they they're the experts coming
in and they don't want to listen. And you have
some guys in our positions GMS, director of golfs, what
have you, that are dictators and they're just going to
say this is the way we're doing it and not
give anybody a voice. The thing that I've tried to
do my whole career is let my assistance make decisions
(10:29):
and run things. And if they trip over themselves, that's
fine because that's how I learned, and that to me's mentorship.
Give them, give them, give them some rope, go ahead,
and they're not going to screw And what are we
really doing running? You know how bad are they going
to screw up? But if you dictate to them, they're
not going to learn. And and I think that's how
(10:50):
we're training these kids coming out. They've got this thought
that they know it all already and until your hands
on you really don't.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And I think the other thing is, and you mentioned
the professional golf management programs. I think the other thing
that what happens is and I applaud them for doing this,
but they try to get these all the schools try
to get them to internships that are absolutely awesome on resumes.
Well what happens. What happens when when you go to
and I'm not picking on anybody, it's just X y
Z top tier club as a as a freshman in
(11:23):
college or a sophomore in college. You go in there
and you and you can put that on your resume,
But what did you really do there? What did you
really learn?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Now?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
You know, like you know, I had I had three
kids from school work for me one time, and I'm like,
you know, you guys, you go to the junior program,
you go do it. You you have this session right now,
go and I'll stand up here. I'll be right on
the other side of that window and I'll watch what
you're doing. But you know, like you said, what are
(11:53):
you really going to mess up? I mean, I mean,
like you know, like you know, you forget to tell
the nine year old kid that his weight's going to
be on his left foot. I get it. You know,
everybody makes those mistakes, So like, go make them now
so then then you won't make them when you're when
you're actually really in charge.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Right, And most of those internships at least when I
was hiring them, they were backroom kids, or they were
cart kids, they were ranged kids, and you know, that's
that's what you were hiring them for in the Northeast.
I mean, you know, the three month internship coming in
middle of Maine, leaving the middle of August. What were
they really serving for us? Right? I needed a kid
(12:35):
longer than that, and so it was really tough for me.
And but anyway, they serve, they serve a purpose and
and there's some really good ones that have come out.
And I mean I've I've had great relationships with several
of the programs. So I'm not I'm not beating on
the programs. I just think expectation of a lot of
(12:57):
these kids is to come out and walk great in
and I think you need to lean on some of
I consider myself close to one of the old timers,
lean on some of the old timers that have been there,
done that, and learn learn, you know, from experience, not
just from kind of book and studying and sitting in
(13:20):
the classroom. I think it's way more important. And that's
how we learned, right, I mean, that's that's how I mean.
My son's now a PG member, just over almost a year.
And he didn't go to PGM school, you know, universities.
He went and worked, right, and he went and worked
for different professionals and learned and understood what it was like.
(13:41):
And he's going to be a great golf pro because
of that, not because he's got great books, you know,
book skills.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, it's interesting, you know, you start to realize that
that the better you can as a twenty four or
a twenty one or an eighteen year old kid, you
can run a back room, the easier it is to
walk inside that golf shop and go, okay, I can
run this, because that that's it's it's that's like unsupervised
like involvement, like you're it, like you're in charge. Go
(14:11):
what's gonna happen? Like you said, what's gonna happen? Nobody's
gonna say anything on fire? You know it's gonna be
And then you just carry that with you forever and ever.
So so I guess maybe, I guess maybe I know
we come at this in similar similar avenues, but like
I I have a concern for the for the and
(14:35):
and we'll get into this and next segment or so,
but but I have a concern for like what prof
what young professionals were pulling out, you know, like like
what do we what are we offering them to to
become good golf professionals? See that that's what That's what
scares me. It's literally scares me, like like where is
(14:56):
the profession fire years?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Where is the business in five years? Well, I mean
it's changed a lot obviously in the thirty years that
we've been doing this, So it's definitely not the same
as when we got in, and it's not going to
be the same five and ten and fifteen years from now.
I mean, I'm I never looked, never thought I'd be
(15:21):
sitting here as a general manager and director of golf
of the facility and spending spending a week now on
you know, club budgets and that kind of stuff. But
you know, that's that's where my career has taken me,
and and I'm not unhappy with it. It's it's a
(15:41):
it's a great avenue, but I think you got to
think outside the box, and that's kind of what I've
done to keep my deal going. I think it's become
more administrative, whether you're a equity club, that's kind of
in the you know, non not for profit arena or
(16:04):
like I am right now in a for profit company
that I work for. We manage a club that used
to be a non for profit equity club that's had
some struggles that we've come in and we're now running
the operation as a for profit entity. So you have
(16:25):
to think of it a little different. So I think that's,
you know, where people have to approach things in our
business a little different than it was ten years ago.
And I go back to how these kids are being taught.
I don't know that they're being groomed for that. I
think they're being painted this picture of this glamorous golf professional.
(16:49):
You know, you're going to work in the shop, and
you're going to teach, and you're gonna play, and you're
gonna do all this stuff. And at the end of
the day, there's some of those jobs out there rich,
but not many of them. A lot of these clubs,
whether it's a board of a club or I'll take
my company for example, they're looking at bottom line stuff.
(17:09):
They want you to come in and work and how
can we raise revenues and save expenses and put money
to the bottom line. So it's a business, it's definitely
a business mentality in our industry today, and it probably
(17:30):
should have been twenty years ago. A lot of those
clubs like Woodcrest wouldn't have gone belly up. The club
I'm sitting there right now. The members still would have it,
they wouldn't have gone belly up. So you see a
lot of that around. So I think that's what people
need to focus on, is whether you own your own
(17:50):
golf shop or you're working for a club, you need
to look at it more like a business and not
like the old equity club that gave stuff away and
ran it like uh, you know, fraternity the loss or
a break even operation. It just doesn't work that way anymore.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Okay, So when we come back from this, we're gonna
talk about that right there. So we're gonna talk about
like the future. This is the rich Comwoll Golf Show.
Welcome back to the rich Congwall Golf Show. We're joined
this week by Dick Smith Junior. He is the general
manager and director of golf at Outdoor Country Club in
just outside of York, Pennsylvania, and has a great golf story,
(18:32):
has a great golf family history, uh and continuing it
with his son being a PGA member as well. And
when we left off, we were just talking about the
golf business and everybody's all, you know, you're about the
same age I am. You know, we it's the golf.
There was always a golf business, but now it's really
a golf business because now it's it's not it's not hey,
(18:54):
you know, you know head professional owns the shop, you know,
and he's gonna have a you know, we'll have a
junior program and everybody is happy to pay dues and
things like that. People sit down and say, Okay, they're
now recognizing that joining a private club is a bad
economic choice. And I'm not I'm not minimizing anybody does it,
(19:15):
but it is, you know, because you're gonna pay a
lot of money for I don't you know. And there's
other opportunities out there, So you know, I think it
would be whove the PGA of America to start to
turn people out kind of like what your what what
you and I have experienced, Like let's get let's get
a let's sharpen our pencil. You know, how do how
(19:38):
do we do this? You know, how do we raise income?
How do we raise activity? How do we grow and
at the same time keeping eye on an eye on expenses.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, I mean it's it's a tough one. I mean
it's you know, everybody, Hey, I believe PGA of America,
So don't get me wrong, but everybody leans back and says,
you know, the PGA of America's got to step in
and help here and help there and help here. And
(20:13):
I think we have to help ourselves. I mean that's
just been my opinion for a long long time. The
only person that can help me, I can use them
as an asset and get information and all, but the
only person that's going to better my job, better my
(20:33):
opportunity here do different things with numbers is me. And
I think if golf pros and whether you're an assistant
at a club or a head professional, I think if
you approach it that way, instead of sitting back and go,
what's the PGA going to do the better my job,
I think you have to look at it and say,
how am I going to do better? What am I
(20:55):
going to bring to the table for the club? And
if I can for an assistant, proof I can bring
a PGA Junior League, which is a tool that they
give us and race and bring some members in or
raise some value to a member or keep some members,
and everybody shares in a wealth, well then all of
a sudden, we can pay that assistant more money. So
(21:19):
I really don't like when I hear I read it
all the time online about what's the PGA done for
me today? And I don't look at it that way.
And I'll be the first to pick the phone up
and call somebody a PGA and ask for help or
ask for advice or ask a question. But I'm not
looking for them to come in here and make my
(21:43):
job better. That's up to me. And if I trip
over myself, then shame on me. And I think that's
the culture of today's golf professional is they want to
pay their dues and what am I going to get
out of it? Just like sometimes, like you mentioned, like
club members approach the clubs. If you're going to join
a club and look at it as a as a
(22:06):
as a money thing, well you're nobody that ever.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Joined a club, right, exactly, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
So I think we have to do it and really
use the tools that are provided to us, but work
on on our own behalf to better our opportunities.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, I agree, I can agree with a lot of that.
I do. I think that the I I would tell
you that I I do agree with a lot of that.
I think looking in the mirror is a really, really,
really good way to improve. I mean, I mean, you know,
you stand, you know, you you golf balls and standing, Okay,
but that ball's going Know where I wanted to who
(22:45):
you're gonna blame? You know, it's you. It's your golf clubs,
it's you, it's your golf swing. But like it's your
it's your job, you know. I mean, like if if
I if I sat down right now in October and said, okay,
you know what, we didn't grow rounds, or we didn't
grow revenue, or we didn't you know, the food and
beverage operation didn't increase, improve or increase, you know, Okay,
(23:08):
then what did I learn? And how do I How
do I get better? But you can't, you can't. Hey,
I have the answer. I'll call somebody in Fresco, Texas.
I get that. But I guess maybe my whole thing
with the PGA of America and I think we're kind
of on the same page here is I think we
need to to ensure that the PGA of America is
(23:32):
turning out or educating, or or rigorously educating. I guess
I would say real life golf professionals. And that's me.
I mean, I just think, I just think that that
the fact that that you can become a PGA member
(23:52):
without ever having to work for a PGA member is
a problem. I truly believe that. I don't know how
you feel.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
About it, but I mean, I again, we can agree
that there's some things that are broken, you know, I'm
I'm not trying to to jump on a lot of that.
I brought up PG PGM programs. You know, we can
agree that there's some things that are broken, and and
(24:22):
and yeah, how do we fix it? Then? And you know,
there there could be, Richard, we could be at a
point where we're too far past it even try to
fix it, you know. And you know, it's just we're
(24:45):
we're to a point here where again, I've been out
of the loop from pg politics for quite a while
after my serving a section. I was I'm still in
loop on a little stuff and I get information here
and there, and I try to keep myself involved. But
(25:08):
you know, every time you have a change at the top,
there's different priorities, and we have two years of a
change and then there's a different priority. And I look
back at, you know, fifteen years ago the administrations that
were in some of those programs. Those programs don't even exist,
(25:31):
you know. I think there's bigger problems from that standpoint. Well,
my father was involved in pat Riley and Gary Shall
and Tom Addis and those guys back in the eighties
and nineties. They weren't in it for their name or
for recognition or for programs that they wanted to institute.
(25:53):
They were in it to make our lives better. And
there was a change in there somewhere, and I know where,
I know where I believe it happened. But I'm not
going to get into personal things. But it became what
do I get out of it as being an officer
(26:13):
or and so on, and who do I meet, where
do I go, you know, whatever, what do I get
out of it? And it's not about the member. And
I don't know if we can fix it, you know,
And I think there's there's other issues that when I
(26:35):
was getting ready to go on the board or the
you know, I could have gone on to the Board
of National you know, I was in line to do that.
My club wouldn't have allowed me. We were in financial trouble.
I wouldn't even asked them to do it. Right, you
have that problem. Now you get the good guys that
might be the guys that you could throw out there.
(26:55):
You look at the people that are serving their owners
of their facilities, and there you know they're there. It's
just a different ballgame than the true grass roots professionals
that were serving back in the day. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Really, that's a really good that's a really good point.
I actually never really examined that you are correct. I
mean it's easy for and I'll just say you if
you owned your place and and the district director job
came open, our position came open, and the Philadelphia section
called you and said, hey can you do this? Yeah,
I can do this. I can leave whenever I want.
I own the place. But like me, I got to
(27:35):
go to an owner and go all right, look, I
really want to spend I don't know, nine hours a
week doing this. Well, what you want to do? What
you can't do that we were paying you to do that?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
God forbid you become a national officer. I mean, my
father when he was president for two years, was on
the road two hundred and some days a year, right right,
completely volunteer, no compensation back to this club, know nothing,
you know, his expenses were paid, right. But and you
(28:07):
know what, the club loved it. The club loved to
see when he was on TV. You know, Oh, there
he's sitting there at the rules official at the Masters,
or he's handing the PGA Championship trophy. That was great.
That's what they were, that's what they lived for. Those
days are gone. Those club members are gone. They couldn't
they couldn't give a whot if their pro was on
(28:29):
TV on Sunday at PGA Championship. They want to know
why isn't he here at the club? So the and
again I've known, I've known all these guys, you know,
over the last twenty of They're good, they're good guys.
I just think some of the focus has gotten away
from what can we do for the member and what
(28:51):
is it I'm going to get out of it? And
how can I parlay my this job as a national
officer into something something more right? Right?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And yeah, I won't get into those names, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
When you can, you look in you can look at
the names and take it from there. And I have
no problem in saying that. My my father would probably
kick me for saying it, but I don't. I don't
really care. That's that's the problem with with how that
position is evolved. So anyway, I think we're going down
(29:30):
a rabbit hole we don't need to go down. But
that's that's why the how the business has changed. And
I don't know that you can flip it around as
much as I'll say it again, old timers like that
want to fix it, right, I think it's I think
it's you know, I think the rank and file golf
(29:54):
pro today really just says, you know, it's fine, this
just keep going. I'm just going to go teach and
I'm just going to go do what I do.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
And right, that's it's hurting us because we're the traditional
guy that knows what it was and is not real
happy where it's gotten to. Right, We're actually we're to
the point, we might be to the point where the
entire sink is full of toothpaste and we have a tube.
There ain't no way it's getting back in there, right
what So yeah, and that's and that's actually that's actually
(30:26):
kind of and I know you are too. That's it's
disappointing or sad or whatever phrase you want to use.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
But so.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Okay, so go back then and let's see we're not
going to talk about people. But how do you think
that the the PGA of America should better educate its members.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I think they should provide education opportunities to its members,
and the member it's to the members to educate themselves.
So if I want to, if I want to educate
myself in a certain career path or in certain areas,
(31:17):
then yes, I think a lot of you know, the
you got the pg have America on a national level,
then you have your sections. So do I think some
of the education over the last thirty years I've gone
to I felt like it was a waste of my
time going to and it was just I got six
points and I moved on. Yeah, but I think the
(31:42):
national stuff I don't. I don't know how much you
know whether you're at the merchandise show, I don't know
where else. And online stuff, yeah, I just used to
do certified programs. I don't. I don't have the desire
or the time to go down all those different rabbit
holes to do that. At my at my stage of
(32:02):
my career. So I think the onus is then on
your section, right, and I and.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I agree with that. I just I just I think
we'd and maybe we've Maybe this is more toothpaste than
the sink, but I think we've crossed into the into
the area where we've we've become self proclaimed experts as
opposed to proven experts. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Maybe I don't. I don't know. I mean, I think
I think you could probably argue that either way. I
think the onus is on the individual to better educate
themselves over time. And maybe the argument might be, should
(32:57):
recertification be more difficult and not as easy to get recertified?
Because I think it's pretty easy, And maybe there should
be more substance to your recertification and more education and
(33:18):
more you know, something like that, that that might be
the direction to go. But it goes back to, you know,
the only person that can improve me sitting here and
yay is me, And if I feel like educating myself
and bettering myself, and you know, but hey, I might not.
(33:42):
I might not want to be a great teacher or
teach a lot, So why why should I be forced
to go take teaching you know programs or I might
not want to, you know, be in the food and
bevery Why so I got to find my career path
and then I need to become the best in that
in that.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Area probably the best way to put it. Okay, when
we come back from this this commercial, we are going
to talk a little bit about what you're into in
York and about kind of the kind of really cool
career path you're on. This is the Rich Combo Golf Show.
Welcome back to Rich Combogolf Show. We're joined this week
(34:20):
by Dick Smith Junior, or with Dick Smith Junior, who
is the general manager and director of golf at Outdoor
Country Club in York, Pennsylvania, who has a storied family
history in the PGA of America and with that means
that he's been surrounded by great golf professionals in his family.
(34:44):
So all right, so you touched on a little bit
about being at Woodcrest for you, say, eighteen years.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, as a head professional director of golf after my
father left. I was there eighteen.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Years all right. And then so then obviously that felt,
as you mentioned, fell in a little bit of hard time.
So what did you do after that?
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Well, I was. I was ahead of that completely closing,
so I was lucky enough to get the position up
in the Mets section at Manhattan Wood's Golf Club. I
was the director of golf, general manager there for eight years.
Really wonderful facility, privately owned. So it was a little
change of pace for me getting into, like we talked earlier,
the for profit, privately owned avenue working in a you know,
(35:35):
the high ticket area of Manhattan. So I worked there
for eight years, had an ownership change, made a move,
took some time off, COVID hit you know, the whole
nine yards, and then I went to work in Houston,
Texas for three years at probably the largest private club
(35:57):
in America, Clubs at Kingwood's got five golf courses and
three thousand members. As a director of golf. It's a
club court facility now known as Invited. So that was
an interesting again, a third different kind of set up,
management company owned facility, big, big, big operation. And then
(36:24):
kind of found my way back home here to Philadelphia
to York when I was contacted by this company to
come be the general manager director of golf here at
Outdoor Country Club.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
So let me let me just ask you one question,
what's it like to go to a facility with five
golf courses?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
You know, I was asked that question in the interview
and I said, well, it's just the way I approached
it was, we do it. We do it with eighteen holes.
Just think of it times five. I mean, it sounds
so simple, but it was an awesome responsibility. We had
(37:12):
four courses right on site at the main clubhouse, and
then we had our fifth course, which was like two
miles down the street, which was a kind of a
higher end, more pro, exclusively private club that was run
kind of separate, but I oversaw all five. But yeah,
three thousand members, three driving ranges. We would do Monday outings,
(37:34):
charity outings up here. You do what one hundred players
on a Monday on your eighteen whole golf course. We
do a Monday outing and have six hundred players.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
I'm sorry, that's fun.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
All five golf courses going just a just a totally
different side of the business, but just incredible. So and
then when you have just member played in a week,
you can have so much going on with different associations
and member play, and there was never a dull moment there.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yeah, I gotta tell you that you gotta get you
got to get next to some serious fun there. There's
a lot of stuff going on there.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Now.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
You can't be bored. You can't be bored.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Uh No. We had a mantra there what's next, And
something would happened and we put that fire out and
then we'd look at each other and go what's next.
Sure enough, a few minutes later and everybody got onto
that what's next mode, And that's the only way you
could survive there.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
That's funny, because.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
What's next.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
My dad had a saying, get your head up. Things
gonna be worse. And I got my head up, and
sure enough, they got worse. You know, it's the same
kind of thing, you know, the same kind of things like, yeah,
what's next, Well just give it a second, it'll be here.
So so talk to me about Outdoor. You like it?
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, it's great. It's you know, being in Philadelphia for
as long as I was and and a lot of golf,
I played a lot of tournament golf, I'd always knew
about Door and never played here, and I mean it's
an awesome golf course. It's a great club. They you know,
fell in a little struggle times there like a lot
of clubs do. And the company I workforce a company
(39:16):
out of Virginia called Resort Development Partners. We don't call
ourselves a management company. We'd like to say we're owner
operators that go in and help these clubs. And we're
a little boutique company with five golf courses around the
country and we basically leased the operation back from the
(39:37):
clubs and run the club for them. And we've been
in here five or so years. I'm coming up on
two years here and it's great. The members coming and
enjoy the facilities and don't have any of the business
or any of that things to worry about. And it's
(39:57):
a phenomenal golf course. But you know, we have yeah,
pool and tennis and great banquet facility of the weddings.
We do all the everything a country club would do
right in the heart of York, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
That's neat because that's the cool thing about that situation is,
like you said, the members go, they play some golf,
gets something to eat, and they go home and they
have no real angst about, Okay, how come the golf
courses that way, or how come the golf.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
We have a small equity group that owns the asset
that that helped get them out of bankruptcy, and we
meet with them, you know, quarterly and let them know
what's going on. And but other than that, we have
some advisory committees that we put members together to help us,
you know, steer us. But we run it like a business.
And that's a little change for a club that's been
(40:50):
in you know, been around for a long time that
is used to you know, running their own club and
charging the prices at equity club price, you know charge.
But it's the only way this club survives if if
if it's not done this way, it's going away. And
this club's been here since eighteen ninety two, which not
(41:10):
a lot of people realize Outdoor Country Club has been
in York for that long and we've been at this
at this location since the nineteen fifties. But Outdoor Country
Club's got a storied history in Pennsylvania and it'd be
a shame to see it go away.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
York's are cool town. York's a really cool town. You know,
you got Harley Davidson plant.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Yeah, yeah, we got Country Club at York in the area.
They've they're you know, they're they're kind of the varying
of the area. And they just announced they're holding a
couple of USGA championships there coming up, the four ball
and I think the Junior AM, one of the junior ams.
So we got Lancaster Country Club not too far away.
(41:56):
So there's some really good golf out here. And again
now a lot of people know the area, but it's outdoor.
Is a phenomenal golf course, in great shape and pleasure
to come to every day.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Plus you have the peppermint patties. You can't never never
forget that. You have the peppermint patties. All right, let's
be really clear. And then if you too many of those,
you go down the York bar bell and just lift
some weights and you kind of burn that off.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Yeah, it's right up the streets in my house. I
see it every day. I can say I've not stopped
in there yet.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I know where it is, I haven't stopped in there yet.
I like that. So all right, So what's next for
your facility?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well, I mean we're thrall on up here. We're busy
in the next two and a half months with holiday
stuff and you know, fall stuff. The rest of October
and then we ramp into holidays and then we're in
a planning process for twenty twenty six. We're starting to
plan out capital projects for next year to see where
we go. I mean, I think the next big project
(43:02):
will take on as redoing our bunkers. They need to
be done. So I think that's that's on the planning
stages here and just continue to grow. We just we
have to continue to grow, you know, in the economy
the way it is, with costs going up, we have
to continue to grow on the other side. And that's
that's the biggest challenge I think in our business right now,
(43:24):
is costs are going up, so you have to figure
out how you keep the revenues coming in and picking
the right time to do these big projects. So we're
not as clubs that have the huge you know, the
huge pockets. So we just want to keep and maintain,
(43:45):
you know, the good quality product we have out there,
and keep the ball rolling and pick and choose you know,
where where we are where we do the right things.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting you say that because because
you know, you were saying kind of continue to grow,
continue to go, continue to grow. I mean, like the
benchmark for for Our business has always been rounds of golf, right.
I mean, now I'm just talking about the golf course
side of it. Obviously you have banquets and so do I.
But but you know, like coming out of October, you know,
(44:16):
we're looking at rounds of golf, right, So so that's
got to grow. That's got to grow. But it's interesting
that with the increased expenses it used to or the
increased costs, it used to be easier to sit down
and say, Okay, you know we can save a little
bit of money if we do this, this and this.
Those doors are shut now because those expenses are going on,
(44:39):
those costs are going up, So now you have to
focus on growth.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, it's a it's a it's not a fun time
to be in in in that area because if you
cut expenses, and you cut expenses and cut expenses, it's
going to hurt on the other side. Right, So we
have to keep the we have to keep the momentum
(45:06):
going and spend I've always believe you spend money to
make money money, you have to spend it wisely. So uh,
and again I'm in the middle, right in the middle
of our budget process for next year and trying to
put it all together and figure out. You know, the
challenge is what is the growth going to be and
how do we get there? And you know, you can't
(45:29):
price yourself out, you can't cross certain thresholds, and but
at the same time, how do we also minimize the
expenses because there's there's not a lot of different avenues
in our business, right, right. You got dues, you got
cart fees, and you got food and beverage, and then
(45:49):
you got a lot of payroll so and and chemicals
and stuff for the golf course. I mean, there's not
a lot of different things there to increase or cut right, right, right,
something has to give somewhere.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Right, It's not it's not like you can say, well,
this year we spent one hundred thousand dollars on chemicals,
but next year we don't have to spend fifty No,
that's not true.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
You guys. Well, then the golf course goes down and
the people leave, and then it's, as my father always said, now.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
You're in the spiral and the death spiral. So yeah,
that that's that, that's that is exactly true. It's not
a whole lot of fun to be to be in
this it's actually fun but not fun.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
So yeah, I still enjoy it, but it's different. It's different.
As I said before, it's different than when we got
in it.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah, so I got to tell you, so twenty five
years ago, there's no way you'd be sitting nor would
I be thinking that we would be sitting down going okay, spreadsheet,
all these expenses, all this income, this payroll. No, you know,
it was always like, Okay, what merchandise we buying, where
are we displaying it? When's the junior program? And who
(46:59):
we tea.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Let's go twenty five years ago, I owned my own
golf shop. I didn't have a plan. I bought what
I wanted, I sold what I wanted. I figured it out.
I you know, I just I didn't have it on paper. Now,
you know, you want buying plans and you want you know,
inventory plans and selling plans. It's like I did better
(47:24):
when I didn't have any of that.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
The seat of my pants was a whole lot of
a whole lot of it.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Was my money, and you know it was Yeah, I mean,
but that's that's the nature of our business and all today,
and we gotta we gotta do it the right way.
So we know what the heck's going on.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Dick. I just want to tell you thanks again. I
appreciate this. I mean, I know you're a really busy guy,
and I do appreciate it. I will check back with
you in the spring and see how all that's going.
And good luck the rest of the way this.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Year, no my pleasure. Thanks, thanks for the invite anytime,
and and good luck to you and all the best
for a great end of the season and happy holidays.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Thanks. Take care. This is the take care. This is
the rich Goof show.
Welcome to the Rich Kalmonell Golf Show. As we move
into boy almost November and it gets colder and colder
in the Northeast, things are starting to slow down the
golf operations. But I I want to thank my guest
for coming on this week. This is a We are
(00:24):
joined by Dick Smith Junior, who is a PGA professional
in York, Pennsylvania, has an incredible, incredibly good golf story
and I have a little bit of a personal connection
with Dick's father. But so first off, thanks for thanks
for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Oh my pleasure, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You bet so. As I start with everybody, tell me,
tell me how it all started for you in the
game of golf.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Well, you mentioned my father. I mean I grew up
in a golf family. So I have a father who
passed away two years ago, but he was a fifty
five year PGA member and my uncle who is still living,
he's a fifty five fifty six year PGA member. So
I grew up around it and was never forced into it.
(01:17):
But that's all I've known since I can remember hanging
out the golf course, you know, trying to drive a
golf cart before I was allowed doing all that fun
stuff and eventually just just got into the business started running,
you know, running clubs and cleaning clubs and picking range
(01:38):
balls and doing all that stuff. That's all I've known
since since I was ten, twelve, thirteen years old.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
That's awesome. So so for those who do not know,
Dick's father was the is the former is a past
president of pg of America and incredibly respected. And say
this because you're on the radio with me, because he's
been incredibly respected forever, incredibly respected. PGA professional has never, ever,
(02:08):
ever been anything but the ultimate definition of professional and courteous,
kind and class. I've only met him a few times,
I've speak several times. And you know, so where did
you where was where were your formative years?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Now?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Obviously I know you're cleaning, cleaning clubs and picking range
balls and things like that, but as you turn professional, like,
where did you work?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, I mean I went to work for him and
for at first as an assistant while I was a
back room and then worked my way up to be
as assistant at Woodcrest Country Club in Cherry Hill, New Jersey.
You know, I played high school golf. I didn't want
to go to college I wasn't the school type, so
(02:57):
I just went to work and I would hang out
at the club all day work when I needed to practice, play,
do whatever, and that was that was kind of what
I did. And lucky enough, like you said, my father
was president of the PGA, he was traveling, we were
(03:17):
covering for him at the club, and then when he
left office nineteen ninety two, he wound up leaving Woodcrest
to go build Galloway National Golf Club down the Jersey
Shore with a group of guys, and I was lucky
enough to get the head professional job at Woodcrest, So
when he left, I was there for eighteen years after
(03:39):
he left there, So that's kind of where I spend
most of my time and from about twelve thirteen years
old till I left in God, I remember when it
was twenty fifteen or twenty.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Sixteen, right, So Smith was on the payroll for forever
and ever and ever at Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
This that's where at Woodcrest for almost over thirty years. Yeah,
So that was a big part of our family and
our life.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
That's that's unbelievable. So all right, so you learn from him,
and you and you do and you learn the golf business.
And I realize everybody has a view of the golf business,
but like, how did ad I'm gonna talk about your
dad for a second. How did he learn to be
that professional? Like I know you are too, but I mean,
(04:27):
like I'd like to think I'm somewhat like that, But
how did he learn to do that?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well? I think I think it's the way we all
do it. Rich you've done it, We've all done it.
We surround ourselves with the right people, and we're fortunate
enough to go to work for some good people. I mean,
he grew up in Baltimore, met some folks down there,
and one of the gentlemen that took him kind of
under his wing a little bit to John by him
(04:55):
and Dick Hendrickson, who a lot of people in our
area will know. He They became great friends, and he
mentored him and kind of my father up and moved
to Philadelphia, took his first job and worked for some
very highly respected golf pros in his early time. I
(05:16):
don't remember a lot of their names, but they were
great golf professionals in the Philadelphia area. And that's kind
of how you did it, how you learned it back then,
you work for the right people. They they mouledj In,
mentoredj In and told you, you know, talked to you
the right way to do it. And I think we
respected those people and we listened to them, and when
(05:39):
they told you to do something, you did it and
you learn from it. So that's kind of where he went,
you know, from And then he got involved in PJA
politics and again surrounded himself with the right people. And
he wasn't the only person doing it. He listened to
a lot of people and it was a team and
(06:00):
people made him look good. But you gotta trust people
around you.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah, that's interesting because you know, I was, I was
thinking about this this morning because I knew we would
eventually talk about this or at some point during our conversation.
But you know, one of the one of the big
pushes in the in the golf business now or in
the last five years or so maybe ten, has been
like this mentor thing. And and I think it's a
I think it's a I think it's an overused term.
(06:29):
I think it's just go to work for somebody, you know,
go to work for somebody and and and watch how
they do things, and then and then maybe just maybe
you know, let's say there's ten things, nine that they
do really well and one you're like, I can do
that better, but I'll try to do these nine just
as well, and that just turns you out that much better.
(06:51):
And I just I just don't. I think I think
we make it. I guess maybe what I'm saying is
I think we make it too complicated.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, I think I think we do. And I think
in nature of I think the people that are coming
out today and the kids that are coming out today,
when we were coming out and getting into the business,
that was just the norm. We took it all in.
(07:19):
We absorbed it, we watched it, we listened. We wouldn't
I wouldn't think to any of the golf professionals that
I worked for to tell them no, or tell them
I think I could do it better. I listened, and
I just took it all in. And these kids today,
in my opinion, they come in and they think they
know more than they do. And I think that's why
(07:42):
you're getting back to the need and people using that
mentor where I was at the Philly Section meeting on
Monday and they're said they're coming out with a big
mentor program in twenty twenty six, and I thought the
same thing. I said, it's just what we do every day.
I think it's the it's the young kids today don't
(08:06):
know any better, and they're coming in gung ho, whether
it's what they've been taught or the college that they
come from or whatever, and they think they know more
than they really do, and they should just sit back
and take it all in from some of the great
golf professionals that could go to work for.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, it's interesting to say because I was remember sitting
at the merchandise show in the hotel room and I
was talking and I was working for Tom Trophy at
Williams for a country club, and then I was and
he was sitting in his hotel room with Carter Murkison,
who would forever and ever in Florida was a great player,
great golf professional. And they're they're sitting there talking about
a format like that nine hole match around, because that
(08:40):
had just come out, you know, that nine hole match
around for remember guests. And I'm sitting there, I'm thinking
to myself, you know, and like I remember, I got
up all this nervous, say can I ask a question?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
You know?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
And I think and they were like, yeah, well, you know,
like you know how to avoid a tie and you
know how all this stuff. And I was just like,
I just an idea, and I thought thought they should.
I would ask the opportunity to share my idea. But today,
like you wouldn't even I mean, and I'm not beating
on people. I'm just stating facts today, and you wouldn't
even have that conversation, like you would just say, well,
(09:15):
we'll do it that way. Wait a minute, man, what
are you talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yeah, I think it's a little bit on both sides.
I mean, I've had the fortunate a chance in my
career and my life with the people my father has
gotten to know and introduced me to to sit around
some tables with some people that I've just been in
all with and to listen to them talk and they
(09:40):
The one big piece I've taken away from some of
the great people I've been able to have conversations with
is they include everybody. It's not just them dictating down
or steering the conversation. It's it's inclusive. And I think
you get that a lot of that. You get some
of these kids coming out of some of these PGM
programs at all today that just think they they know more,
(10:04):
they expect more, or are they they're the experts coming
in and they don't want to listen. And you have
some guys in our positions GMS, director of golfs, what
have you, that are dictators and they're just going to
say this is the way we're doing it and not
give anybody a voice. The thing that I've tried to
do my whole career is let my assistance make decisions
(10:29):
and run things. And if they trip over themselves, that's
fine because that's how I learned, and that to me's mentorship.
Give them, give them, give them some rope, go ahead,
and they're not going to screw And what are we
really doing running? You know how bad are they going
to screw up? But if you dictate to them, they're
not going to learn. And and I think that's how
(10:50):
we're training these kids coming out. They've got this thought
that they know it all already and until your hands
on you really don't.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And I think the other thing is, and you mentioned
the professional golf management programs. I think the other thing
that what happens is and I applaud them for doing this,
but they try to get these all the schools try
to get them to internships that are absolutely awesome on resumes.
Well what happens. What happens when when you go to
and I'm not picking on anybody, it's just X y
Z top tier club as a as a freshman in
(11:23):
college or a sophomore in college. You go in there
and you and you can put that on your resume,
But what did you really do there? What did you
really learn?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Now?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
You know, like you know, I had I had three
kids from school work for me one time, and I'm like,
you know, you guys, you go to the junior program,
you go do it. You you have this session right now,
go and I'll stand up here. I'll be right on
the other side of that window and I'll watch what
you're doing. But you know, like you said, what are
(11:53):
you really going to mess up? I mean, I mean,
like you know, like you know, you forget to tell
the nine year old kid that his weight's going to
be on his left foot. I get it. You know,
everybody makes those mistakes, So like, go make them now
so then then you won't make them when you're when
you're actually really in charge.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Right, And most of those internships at least when I
was hiring them, they were backroom kids, or they were
cart kids, they were ranged kids, and you know, that's
that's what you were hiring them for in the Northeast.
I mean, you know, the three month internship coming in
middle of Maine, leaving the middle of August. What were
they really serving for us? Right? I needed a kid
(12:35):
longer than that, and so it was really tough for me.
And but anyway, they serve, they serve a purpose and
and there's some really good ones that have come out.
And I mean I've I've had great relationships with several
of the programs. So I'm not I'm not beating on
the programs. I just think expectation of a lot of
(12:57):
these kids is to come out and walk great in
and I think you need to lean on some of
I consider myself close to one of the old timers,
lean on some of the old timers that have been there,
done that, and learn learn, you know, from experience, not
just from kind of book and studying and sitting in
(13:20):
the classroom. I think it's way more important. And that's
how we learned, right, I mean, that's that's how I mean.
My son's now a PG member, just over almost a year.
And he didn't go to PGM school, you know, universities.
He went and worked, right, and he went and worked
for different professionals and learned and understood what it was like.
(13:41):
And he's going to be a great golf pro because
of that, not because he's got great books, you know,
book skills.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, it's interesting, you know, you start to realize that
that the better you can as a twenty four or
a twenty one or an eighteen year old kid, you
can run a back room, the easier it is to
walk inside that golf shop and go, okay, I can
run this, because that that's it's it's that's like unsupervised
like involvement, like you're it, like you're in charge. Go
(14:11):
what's gonna happen? Like you said, what's gonna happen? Nobody's
gonna say anything on fire? You know it's gonna be
And then you just carry that with you forever and ever.
So so I guess maybe, I guess maybe I know
we come at this in similar similar avenues, but like
I I have a concern for the for the and
(14:35):
and we'll get into this and next segment or so,
but but I have a concern for like what prof
what young professionals were pulling out, you know, like like
what do we what are we offering them to to
become good golf professionals? See that that's what That's what
scares me. It's literally scares me, like like where is
(14:56):
the profession fire years?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Where is the business in five years? Well, I mean
it's changed a lot obviously in the thirty years that
we've been doing this, So it's definitely not the same
as when we got in, and it's not going to
be the same five and ten and fifteen years from now.
I mean, I'm I never looked, never thought I'd be
(15:21):
sitting here as a general manager and director of golf
of the facility and spending spending a week now on
you know, club budgets and that kind of stuff. But
you know, that's that's where my career has taken me,
and and I'm not unhappy with it. It's it's a
(15:41):
it's a great avenue, but I think you got to
think outside the box, and that's kind of what I've
done to keep my deal going. I think it's become
more administrative, whether you're a equity club, that's kind of
in the you know, non not for profit arena or
(16:04):
like I am right now in a for profit company
that I work for. We manage a club that used
to be a non for profit equity club that's had
some struggles that we've come in and we're now running
the operation as a for profit entity. So you have
(16:25):
to think of it a little different. So I think that's,
you know, where people have to approach things in our
business a little different than it was ten years ago.
And I go back to how these kids are being taught.
I don't know that they're being groomed for that. I
think they're being painted this picture of this glamorous golf professional.
(16:49):
You know, you're going to work in the shop, and
you're going to teach, and you're gonna play, and you're
gonna do all this stuff. And at the end of
the day, there's some of those jobs out there rich,
but not many of them. A lot of these clubs,
whether it's a board of a club or I'll take
my company for example, they're looking at bottom line stuff.
(17:09):
They want you to come in and work and how
can we raise revenues and save expenses and put money
to the bottom line. So it's a business, it's definitely
a business mentality in our industry today, and it probably
(17:30):
should have been twenty years ago. A lot of those
clubs like Woodcrest wouldn't have gone belly up. The club
I'm sitting there right now. The members still would have it,
they wouldn't have gone belly up. So you see a
lot of that around. So I think that's what people
need to focus on, is whether you own your own
(17:50):
golf shop or you're working for a club, you need
to look at it more like a business and not
like the old equity club that gave stuff away and
ran it like uh, you know, fraternity the loss or
a break even operation. It just doesn't work that way anymore.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Okay, So when we come back from this, we're gonna
talk about that right there. So we're gonna talk about
like the future. This is the rich Comwoll Golf Show.
Welcome back to the rich Congwall Golf Show. We're joined
this week by Dick Smith Junior. He is the general
manager and director of golf at Outdoor Country Club in
just outside of York, Pennsylvania, and has a great golf story,
(18:32):
has a great golf family history, uh and continuing it
with his son being a PGA member as well. And
when we left off, we were just talking about the
golf business and everybody's all, you know, you're about the
same age I am. You know, we it's the golf.
There was always a golf business, but now it's really
a golf business because now it's it's not it's not hey,
(18:54):
you know, you know head professional owns the shop, you know,
and he's gonna have a you know, we'll have a
junior program and everybody is happy to pay dues and
things like that. People sit down and say, Okay, they're
now recognizing that joining a private club is a bad
economic choice. And I'm not I'm not minimizing anybody does it,
(19:15):
but it is, you know, because you're gonna pay a
lot of money for I don't you know. And there's
other opportunities out there, So you know, I think it
would be whove the PGA of America to start to
turn people out kind of like what your what what
you and I have experienced, Like let's get let's get
a let's sharpen our pencil. You know, how do how
(19:38):
do we do this? You know, how do we raise income?
How do we raise activity? How do we grow and
at the same time keeping eye on an eye on expenses.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, I mean it's it's a tough one. I mean
it's you know, everybody, Hey, I believe PGA of America,
So don't get me wrong, but everybody leans back and says,
you know, the PGA of America's got to step in
and help here and help there and help here. And
(20:13):
I think we have to help ourselves. I mean that's
just been my opinion for a long long time. The
only person that can help me, I can use them
as an asset and get information and all, but the
only person that's going to better my job, better my
(20:33):
opportunity here do different things with numbers is me. And
I think if golf pros and whether you're an assistant
at a club or a head professional, I think if
you approach it that way, instead of sitting back and go,
what's the PGA going to do the better my job,
I think you have to look at it and say,
how am I going to do better? What am I
(20:55):
going to bring to the table for the club? And
if I can for an assistant, proof I can bring
a PGA Junior League, which is a tool that they
give us and race and bring some members in or
raise some value to a member or keep some members,
and everybody shares in a wealth, well then all of
a sudden, we can pay that assistant more money. So
(21:19):
I really don't like when I hear I read it
all the time online about what's the PGA done for
me today? And I don't look at it that way.
And I'll be the first to pick the phone up
and call somebody a PGA and ask for help or
ask for advice or ask a question. But I'm not
looking for them to come in here and make my
(21:43):
job better. That's up to me. And if I trip
over myself, then shame on me. And I think that's
the culture of today's golf professional is they want to
pay their dues and what am I going to get
out of it? Just like sometimes, like you mentioned, like
club members approach the clubs. If you're going to join
a club and look at it as a as a
(22:06):
as a money thing, well you're nobody that ever.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Joined a club, right, exactly, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
So I think we have to do it and really
use the tools that are provided to us, but work
on on our own behalf to better our opportunities.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, I agree, I can agree with a lot of that.
I do. I think that the I I would tell
you that I I do agree with a lot of that.
I think looking in the mirror is a really, really,
really good way to improve. I mean, I mean, you know,
you stand, you know, you you golf balls and standing, Okay,
but that ball's going Know where I wanted to who
(22:45):
you're gonna blame? You know, it's you. It's your golf clubs,
it's you, it's your golf swing. But like it's your
it's your job, you know. I mean, like if if
I if I sat down right now in October and said, okay,
you know what, we didn't grow rounds, or we didn't
grow revenue, or we didn't you know, the food and
beverage operation didn't increase, improve or increase, you know, Okay,
(23:08):
then what did I learn? And how do I How
do I get better? But you can't, you can't. Hey,
I have the answer. I'll call somebody in Fresco, Texas.
I get that. But I guess maybe my whole thing
with the PGA of America and I think we're kind
of on the same page here is I think we
need to to ensure that the PGA of America is
(23:32):
turning out or educating, or or rigorously educating. I guess
I would say real life golf professionals. And that's me.
I mean, I just think, I just think that that
the fact that that you can become a PGA member
(23:52):
without ever having to work for a PGA member is
a problem. I truly believe that. I don't know how
you feel.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
About it, but I mean, I again, we can agree
that there's some things that are broken, you know, I'm
I'm not trying to to jump on a lot of that.
I brought up PG PGM programs. You know, we can
agree that there's some things that are broken, and and
(24:22):
and yeah, how do we fix it? Then? And you know,
there there could be, Richard, we could be at a
point where we're too far past it even try to
fix it, you know. And you know, it's just we're
(24:45):
we're to a point here where again, I've been out
of the loop from pg politics for quite a while
after my serving a section. I was I'm still in
loop on a little stuff and I get information here
and there, and I try to keep myself involved. But
(25:08):
you know, every time you have a change at the top,
there's different priorities, and we have two years of a
change and then there's a different priority. And I look
back at, you know, fifteen years ago the administrations that
were in some of those programs. Those programs don't even exist,
(25:31):
you know. I think there's bigger problems from that standpoint. Well,
my father was involved in pat Riley and Gary Shall
and Tom Addis and those guys back in the eighties
and nineties. They weren't in it for their name or
for recognition or for programs that they wanted to institute.
(25:53):
They were in it to make our lives better. And
there was a change in there somewhere, and I know where,
I know where I believe it happened. But I'm not
going to get into personal things. But it became what
do I get out of it as being an officer
(26:13):
or and so on, and who do I meet, where
do I go, you know, whatever, what do I get
out of it? And it's not about the member. And
I don't know if we can fix it, you know,
And I think there's there's other issues that when I
(26:35):
was getting ready to go on the board or the
you know, I could have gone on to the Board
of National you know, I was in line to do that.
My club wouldn't have allowed me. We were in financial trouble.
I wouldn't even asked them to do it. Right, you
have that problem. Now you get the good guys that
might be the guys that you could throw out there.
(26:55):
You look at the people that are serving their owners
of their facilities, and there you know they're there. It's
just a different ballgame than the true grass roots professionals
that were serving back in the day. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Really, that's a really good that's a really good point.
I actually never really examined that you are correct. I
mean it's easy for and I'll just say you if
you owned your place and and the district director job
came open, our position came open, and the Philadelphia section
called you and said, hey can you do this? Yeah,
I can do this. I can leave whenever I want.
I own the place. But like me, I got to
(27:35):
go to an owner and go all right, look, I
really want to spend I don't know, nine hours a
week doing this. Well, what you want to do? What
you can't do that we were paying you to do that?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
God forbid you become a national officer. I mean, my
father when he was president for two years, was on
the road two hundred and some days a year, right right,
completely volunteer, no compensation back to this club, know nothing,
you know, his expenses were paid, right. But and you
(28:07):
know what, the club loved it. The club loved to
see when he was on TV. You know, Oh, there
he's sitting there at the rules official at the Masters,
or he's handing the PGA Championship trophy. That was great.
That's what they were, that's what they lived for. Those
days are gone. Those club members are gone. They couldn't
they couldn't give a whot if their pro was on
(28:29):
TV on Sunday at PGA Championship. They want to know
why isn't he here at the club? So the and
again I've known, I've known all these guys, you know,
over the last twenty of They're good, they're good guys.
I just think some of the focus has gotten away
from what can we do for the member and what
(28:51):
is it I'm going to get out of it? And
how can I parlay my this job as a national
officer into something something more right? Right?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And yeah, I won't get into those names, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
When you can, you look in you can look at
the names and take it from there. And I have
no problem in saying that. My my father would probably
kick me for saying it, but I don't. I don't
really care. That's that's the problem with with how that
position is evolved. So anyway, I think we're going down
(29:30):
a rabbit hole we don't need to go down. But
that's that's why the how the business has changed. And
I don't know that you can flip it around as
much as I'll say it again, old timers like that
want to fix it, right, I think it's I think
it's you know, I think the rank and file golf
(29:54):
pro today really just says, you know, it's fine, this
just keep going. I'm just going to go teach and
I'm just going to go do what I do.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
And right, that's it's hurting us because we're the traditional
guy that knows what it was and is not real
happy where it's gotten to. Right, We're actually we're to
the point, we might be to the point where the
entire sink is full of toothpaste and we have a tube.
There ain't no way it's getting back in there, right
what So yeah, and that's and that's actually that's actually
(30:26):
kind of and I know you are too. That's it's
disappointing or sad or whatever phrase you want to use.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
But so.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Okay, so go back then and let's see we're not
going to talk about people. But how do you think
that the the PGA of America should better educate its members.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I think they should provide education opportunities to its members,
and the member it's to the members to educate themselves.
So if I want to, if I want to educate
myself in a certain career path or in certain areas,
(31:17):
then yes, I think a lot of you know, the
you got the pg have America on a national level,
then you have your sections. So do I think some
of the education over the last thirty years I've gone
to I felt like it was a waste of my
time going to and it was just I got six
points and I moved on. Yeah, but I think the
(31:42):
national stuff I don't. I don't know how much you
know whether you're at the merchandise show, I don't know
where else. And online stuff, yeah, I just used to
do certified programs. I don't. I don't have the desire
or the time to go down all those different rabbit
holes to do that. At my at my stage of
(32:02):
my career. So I think the onus is then on
your section, right, and I and.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I agree with that. I just I just I think
we'd and maybe we've Maybe this is more toothpaste than
the sink, but I think we've crossed into the into
the area where we've we've become self proclaimed experts as
opposed to proven experts. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Maybe I don't. I don't know. I mean, I think
I think you could probably argue that either way. I
think the onus is on the individual to better educate
themselves over time. And maybe the argument might be, should
(32:57):
recertification be more difficult and not as easy to get recertified?
Because I think it's pretty easy, And maybe there should
be more substance to your recertification and more education and
(33:18):
more you know, something like that, that that might be
the direction to go. But it goes back to, you know,
the only person that can improve me sitting here and
yay is me, And if I feel like educating myself
and bettering myself, and you know, but hey, I might not.
(33:42):
I might not want to be a great teacher or
teach a lot, So why why should I be forced
to go take teaching you know programs or I might
not want to, you know, be in the food and
bevery Why so I got to find my career path
and then I need to become the best in that
in that.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Area probably the best way to put it. Okay, when
we come back from this this commercial, we are going
to talk a little bit about what you're into in
York and about kind of the kind of really cool
career path you're on. This is the Rich Combo Golf Show.
Welcome back to Rich Combogolf Show. We're joined this week
(34:20):
by Dick Smith Junior, or with Dick Smith Junior, who
is the general manager and director of golf at Outdoor
Country Club in York, Pennsylvania, who has a storied family
history in the PGA of America and with that means
that he's been surrounded by great golf professionals in his family.
(34:44):
So all right, so you touched on a little bit
about being at Woodcrest for you, say, eighteen years.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, as a head professional director of golf after my
father left. I was there eighteen.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Years all right. And then so then obviously that felt,
as you mentioned, fell in a little bit of hard time.
So what did you do after that?
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Well, I was. I was ahead of that completely closing,
so I was lucky enough to get the position up
in the Mets section at Manhattan Wood's Golf Club. I
was the director of golf, general manager there for eight years.
Really wonderful facility, privately owned. So it was a little
change of pace for me getting into, like we talked earlier,
the for profit, privately owned avenue working in a you know,
(35:35):
the high ticket area of Manhattan. So I worked there
for eight years, had an ownership change, made a move,
took some time off, COVID hit you know, the whole
nine yards, and then I went to work in Houston,
Texas for three years at probably the largest private club
(35:57):
in America, Clubs at Kingwood's got five golf courses and
three thousand members. As a director of golf. It's a
club court facility now known as Invited. So that was
an interesting again, a third different kind of set up,
management company owned facility, big, big, big operation. And then
(36:24):
kind of found my way back home here to Philadelphia
to York when I was contacted by this company to
come be the general manager director of golf here at
Outdoor Country Club.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
So let me let me just ask you one question,
what's it like to go to a facility with five
golf courses?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
You know, I was asked that question in the interview
and I said, well, it's just the way I approached
it was, we do it. We do it with eighteen holes.
Just think of it times five. I mean, it sounds
so simple, but it was an awesome responsibility. We had
(37:12):
four courses right on site at the main clubhouse, and
then we had our fifth course, which was like two
miles down the street, which was a kind of a
higher end, more pro, exclusively private club that was run
kind of separate, but I oversaw all five. But yeah,
three thousand members, three driving ranges. We would do Monday outings,
(37:34):
charity outings up here. You do what one hundred players
on a Monday on your eighteen whole golf course. We
do a Monday outing and have six hundred players.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
I'm sorry, that's fun.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
All five golf courses going just a just a totally
different side of the business, but just incredible. So and
then when you have just member played in a week,
you can have so much going on with different associations
and member play, and there was never a dull moment there.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yeah, I gotta tell you that you gotta get you
got to get next to some serious fun there. There's
a lot of stuff going on there.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Now.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
You can't be bored. You can't be bored.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Uh No. We had a mantra there what's next, And
something would happened and we put that fire out and
then we'd look at each other and go what's next.
Sure enough, a few minutes later and everybody got onto
that what's next mode, And that's the only way you
could survive there.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
That's funny, because.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
What's next.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
My dad had a saying, get your head up. Things
gonna be worse. And I got my head up, and
sure enough, they got worse. You know, it's the same
kind of thing, you know, the same kind of things like, yeah,
what's next, Well just give it a second, it'll be here.
So so talk to me about Outdoor. You like it?
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, it's great. It's you know, being in Philadelphia for
as long as I was and and a lot of golf,
I played a lot of tournament golf, I'd always knew
about Door and never played here, and I mean it's
an awesome golf course. It's a great club. They you know,
fell in a little struggle times there like a lot
of clubs do. And the company I workforce a company
(39:16):
out of Virginia called Resort Development Partners. We don't call
ourselves a management company. We'd like to say we're owner
operators that go in and help these clubs. And we're
a little boutique company with five golf courses around the
country and we basically leased the operation back from the
(39:37):
clubs and run the club for them. And we've been
in here five or so years. I'm coming up on
two years here and it's great. The members coming and
enjoy the facilities and don't have any of the business
or any of that things to worry about. And it's
(39:57):
a phenomenal golf course. But you know, we have yeah,
pool and tennis and great banquet facility of the weddings.
We do all the everything a country club would do
right in the heart of York, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
That's neat because that's the cool thing about that situation is,
like you said, the members go, they play some golf,
gets something to eat, and they go home and they
have no real angst about, Okay, how come the golf
courses that way, or how come the golf.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
We have a small equity group that owns the asset
that that helped get them out of bankruptcy, and we
meet with them, you know, quarterly and let them know
what's going on. And but other than that, we have
some advisory committees that we put members together to help us,
you know, steer us. But we run it like a business.
And that's a little change for a club that's been
(40:50):
in you know, been around for a long time that
is used to you know, running their own club and
charging the prices at equity club price, you know charge.
But it's the only way this club survives if if
if it's not done this way, it's going away. And
this club's been here since eighteen ninety two, which not
(41:10):
a lot of people realize Outdoor Country Club has been
in York for that long and we've been at this
at this location since the nineteen fifties. But Outdoor Country
Club's got a storied history in Pennsylvania and it'd be
a shame to see it go away.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
York's are cool town. York's a really cool town. You know,
you got Harley Davidson plant.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Yeah, yeah, we got Country Club at York in the area.
They've they're you know, they're they're kind of the varying
of the area. And they just announced they're holding a
couple of USGA championships there coming up, the four ball
and I think the Junior AM, one of the junior ams.
So we got Lancaster Country Club not too far away.
(41:56):
So there's some really good golf out here. And again
now a lot of people know the area, but it's outdoor.
Is a phenomenal golf course, in great shape and pleasure
to come to every day.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Plus you have the peppermint patties. You can't never never
forget that. You have the peppermint patties. All right, let's
be really clear. And then if you too many of those,
you go down the York bar bell and just lift
some weights and you kind of burn that off.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Yeah, it's right up the streets in my house. I
see it every day. I can say I've not stopped
in there yet.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I know where it is, I haven't stopped in there yet.
I like that. So all right, So what's next for
your facility?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well, I mean we're thrall on up here. We're busy
in the next two and a half months with holiday
stuff and you know, fall stuff. The rest of October
and then we ramp into holidays and then we're in
a planning process for twenty twenty six. We're starting to
plan out capital projects for next year to see where
we go. I mean, I think the next big project
(43:02):
will take on as redoing our bunkers. They need to
be done. So I think that's that's on the planning
stages here and just continue to grow. We just we
have to continue to grow, you know, in the economy
the way it is, with costs going up, we have
to continue to grow on the other side. And that's
that's the biggest challenge I think in our business right now,
(43:24):
is costs are going up, so you have to figure
out how you keep the revenues coming in and picking
the right time to do these big projects. So we're
not as clubs that have the huge you know, the
huge pockets. So we just want to keep and maintain,
(43:45):
you know, the good quality product we have out there,
and keep the ball rolling and pick and choose you know,
where where we are where we do the right things.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting you say that because because
you know, you were saying kind of continue to grow,
continue to go, continue to grow. I mean, like the
benchmark for for Our business has always been rounds of golf, right.
I mean, now I'm just talking about the golf course
side of it. Obviously you have banquets and so do I.
But but you know, like coming out of October, you know,
(44:16):
we're looking at rounds of golf, right, So so that's
got to grow. That's got to grow. But it's interesting
that with the increased expenses it used to or the
increased costs, it used to be easier to sit down
and say, Okay, you know we can save a little
bit of money if we do this, this and this.
Those doors are shut now because those expenses are going on,
(44:39):
those costs are going up, So now you have to
focus on growth.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, it's a it's a it's not a fun time
to be in in in that area because if you
cut expenses, and you cut expenses and cut expenses, it's
going to hurt on the other side. Right, So we
have to keep the we have to keep the momentum
(45:06):
going and spend I've always believe you spend money to
make money money, you have to spend it wisely. So uh,
and again I'm in the middle, right in the middle
of our budget process for next year and trying to
put it all together and figure out. You know, the
challenge is what is the growth going to be and
how do we get there? And you know, you can't
(45:29):
price yourself out, you can't cross certain thresholds, and but
at the same time, how do we also minimize the
expenses because there's there's not a lot of different avenues
in our business, right, right. You got dues, you got
cart fees, and you got food and beverage, and then
(45:49):
you got a lot of payroll so and and chemicals
and stuff for the golf course. I mean, there's not
a lot of different things there to increase or cut right, right, right,
something has to give somewhere.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Right, It's not it's not like you can say, well,
this year we spent one hundred thousand dollars on chemicals,
but next year we don't have to spend fifty No,
that's not true.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
You guys. Well, then the golf course goes down and
the people leave, and then it's, as my father always said, now.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
You're in the spiral and the death spiral. So yeah,
that that's that, that's that is exactly true. It's not
a whole lot of fun to be to be in
this it's actually fun but not fun.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
So yeah, I still enjoy it, but it's different. It's different.
As I said before, it's different than when we got
in it.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah, so I got to tell you, so twenty five
years ago, there's no way you'd be sitting nor would
I be thinking that we would be sitting down going okay, spreadsheet,
all these expenses, all this income, this payroll. No, you know,
it was always like, Okay, what merchandise we buying, where
are we displaying it? When's the junior program? And who
(46:59):
we tea.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Let's go twenty five years ago, I owned my own
golf shop. I didn't have a plan. I bought what
I wanted, I sold what I wanted. I figured it out.
I you know, I just I didn't have it on paper. Now,
you know, you want buying plans and you want you know,
inventory plans and selling plans. It's like I did better
(47:24):
when I didn't have any of that.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
The seat of my pants was a whole lot of
a whole lot of it.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Was my money, and you know it was Yeah, I mean,
but that's that's the nature of our business and all today,
and we gotta we gotta do it the right way.
So we know what the heck's going on.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Dick. I just want to tell you thanks again. I
appreciate this. I mean, I know you're a really busy guy,
and I do appreciate it. I will check back with
you in the spring and see how all that's going.
And good luck the rest of the way this.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Year, no my pleasure. Thanks, thanks for the invite anytime,
and and good luck to you and all the best
for a great end of the season and happy holidays.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Thanks. Take care. This is the take care. This is
the rich Goof show.
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