October 24, 2025 • 9 mins
Author of DEVILS' ADVOCATES: The Hidden Story of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden & Washington Insiders on the Payrolls of Corrupt Foreign Interests, Kenneth P. Vogel, tells us about how foreign money impacts U.S. politics.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Joining me on the hotline. I have Kenneth Vogel, author
of Devil's Advocates, The Hidden story of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden,
and Washington insigners on the payrolls of corrupt foreign interests. Kenneth,
thanks so much for ticket a few minutes to come
on the show. Really appreciate it. You call this a
shadowy billion dollar industry. What does the average American voter
(00:24):
not realize about how foreign influence really works in Washington, DC.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah. One of the.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Things that was most interesting to me Ryan reporting out
this book was the degree to which this is really
a bipartisan phenomena.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
You know, there are people well.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Connected American consultants, lobbyists, family members of presidents who in
the United States we see them as they're on the
red team or the blue team, and they're fighting for
their ideals, you know, sometimes quite bitterly on the US stage.
But when they go abroad, they're willing to work for
deep pocketed folks who can throw huge of money at them,
(01:01):
who don't necessarily have the best interests of US taxpayers
or foreign policy at heart.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
And the well.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Connected Americans will from opposite sides of the aisle will
sometimes go to work for the same shadowy, deep pocketed
for an interests. So you see Republicans and Democrats who
in the US are fighting these ideological battles, setting aside
their ideological concerns about democracy or human rights to work
for sometimes brutal, bloodstained dictators on the same side in
(01:33):
a way that I think would surprise a lot of Americans.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
How prevalent in widespread is this how big? I mean,
you mentioned the billion dollar industry figure, but how big
of a setup do these foreign governments have in Washington,
DC for this kind of stuff?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Yeah, I mean it's there's an inverse relationship in some
ways between like how aligned these interests are with with
like traditional US idea about democracy and human rights, and
how much money they have to spend.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And that's because sometimes.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
You know, you have like dictators who are oligarchs who
have accrued these huge fortunes, sometimes in ill be gotten ways,
and so like there the types of people who would
typically be on the US radar, and the US would encourage,
you know, anti corruption prosecutions against them in their own
countries or would slap sanctions on them. So they have
a lot of money, they have a great they have
(02:26):
a lot writing on the results of US foreign policy,
and they're willing to pay more money to these lobbyists
to try to help them navigate Washington. And the lobbyists
also like they know that if they take a client
that's particularly noxious, it's going to exact some reputational costs
on them, So the payday better be worthwhile. And that's
(02:48):
why you know it's a multi billion dollar industry. And that's,
by the way, only the elements of it that are disclosed.
There's plenty of this type of behavior and action that
goes on behind the scenes and never gets disclosed. But
it sure has paid for a lot of vacation homes
on Maryland's eastern shore and a lot of private school
tuitions in Washington for a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Of very wealthy and well connected people.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
We're joined by The Vogel, author of Devil's Advocates The
Hidden Story of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden, and Washington insiders
on the payrolls of corrupt foreign interests. So when you've
got these foreign governments or oligarchs hiring US lobbyists, what
are they trying to buy? Is it just access? Is
it influence? Is it outcomes? Is it all of it?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, it's all of it.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I mean it ranges from you know, in cases where
there's like marginal allies who are facing concerns in the
US about like how they're using US military assistants or
US foreign policy assistants and they want to like keep
that money flowing. They hire lobbyists or they pay well
connected people around a president or vice president to sort
(03:56):
of allay the concerns that sometimes arise when you see
a regime that is supported by the US engaging in
activity that is not condoned by the US.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
And sometimes it is.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Getting out of trouble like they're you know, oligarch ser
or foreign leaders who get sanctioned by the US for
corruption or for human rights violations, and that really impinges
upon their ability to stay in power and to accrue
wealth and to set up their families, and so they're
willing to pay a lot of money to get off
of US sanctions. Sometimes it is just access that they
(04:31):
want a photo with the president or a vice president
that they can then go home and say like, look,
I'm supported by the US even if they're not. But
that just that proximity and that access is quite valuable
to them, and that's why they're willing to pay for it.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
You have two big, well known names in the title
of your book as examples of what's going on here.
Tell us about Rudy Giuliani and Hunter Biden and how
they're connected to all of this.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, yeah, I wanted to.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
That was an effort to show the bipartisan nature of this,
and we all know the sort of what's spilled over
into the public in a big scandalous way around the
first impeachment of Donald Trump, where Rudy Giuliani was encouraging
Trump to use the levers of power to pressure the
Ukrainians to essentially like dig up dirt on Hunter Biden.
(05:22):
This was in the run up to the twenty twenty
election where Trump was likely to face Biden ultimately did
face Biden, and so you could see why it would
be of political benefit to Trump and Juliani to be
able to sort of undercut Joe Biden's image as you know,
this fighter against corruption and sort of a very you know,
(05:42):
having an integrity filled track record in government, and you know,
there was like there there. Hunter Biden did, in fact
travel around the world, particularly during his father's vice presidency,
going to work for a number of shadowy foreign interests
who were averse to US foreign policy. This is in
Ukraine with the gas company and the oligarch who owned it.
(06:04):
This is in Romania with another oligarch who was a
property property developer. It was in China where he was
working with the Chinese Length Fund, Chinese Government Length Fund,
And so there was there there, there was stuff that,
like you know, that I think did undermine Joe Biden's
image as sort of an anti corruption champion and as
(06:27):
a global statesman. The interesting thing was that Rudy Giuliani
had a long history of working in this exact industry,
including with and for some of the very same foreign
interest that Hunter Biden had worked for. So in some
ways he had a little bit of a roadmap and
a home field advantage to be able to show this
(06:47):
type of corruption. In other ways, of course, it was
blatant hypocrisy for him to do so. So the intertwining
stories they're intertwining sort of journeys through this foreign influence industry,
I thought were like very evocative and interesting. Some of
the characters for whom they worked and tried to help
get out of Trouble were, you know, implicated US foreign
(07:08):
policy in a big way, So they were natural focuses
of the book.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Last question for you, you spent a long time covering money
in politics. How does foreign lobbying compare to say, domestic
political fundraising in terms of influence and outcomes.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of similarities in the
sense that, like the lobbyists and those who get access
and are there for the most sought after among both
domestic and foreign interests are those who are top fundraisers
for presidents or members of Congress, those who have close
family or outside business connections to them, and they use
(07:49):
some of the same techniques. Where the differences arise is
that on the forearn side it's just a lot more
opaque and it's harder to follow the money, uh, because
the reporting requirements in the US are sort of loophole ridden,
and because you know, for all the complaining that we
do about the American system and the transparency or lack thereof,
(08:10):
we have laws like the disclosure laws, transparency laws, conflict
of interest laws that are in many ways the envy
of the rest of world, or maybe they're not the
envy because there are probably people of the rest of
the world who want who benefit from the opacity and
the shadowy nature of their politics. But you know, but
but we're able to follow the money a lot more
on the domestic side, and you know, I think there
(08:32):
we like to think that those laws prevent corruption of
the sort that we see in the developing world and
in you know, the former Soviet world. What I found
in my book is now some of the same pay
to play mindset, despite these laws, is still present. So
we can follow the money a little bit better, not
as well as we con on the domestic side, but
there's still the same. It doesn't prevent the type of
(08:54):
pay to play access and influence pedaling that we see
around the world.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Tenne's p. Vogel, author of The Devil's advocates the hidden
story of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden, and Washington insiders on
the payrolls of corrupt foreign interests. Kenneth really appreciate the
time and insight and best of luck with the book.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, I enjoyed the chat. Thanks. It's a Ryan Gorman
Show five to nine every weekday morning on news radio WFLA.
Joining me on the hotline. I have Kenneth Vogel, author
of Devil's Advocates, The Hidden story of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden,
and Washington insigners on the payrolls of corrupt foreign interests. Kenneth,
thanks so much for ticket a few minutes to come
on the show. Really appreciate it. You call this a
shadowy billion dollar industry. What does the average American voter
(00:24):
not realize about how foreign influence really works in Washington, DC.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah. One of the.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Things that was most interesting to me Ryan reporting out
this book was the degree to which this is really
a bipartisan phenomena.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
You know, there are people well.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Connected American consultants, lobbyists, family members of presidents who in
the United States we see them as they're on the
red team or the blue team, and they're fighting for
their ideals, you know, sometimes quite bitterly on the US stage.
But when they go abroad, they're willing to work for
deep pocketed folks who can throw huge of money at them,
(01:01):
who don't necessarily have the best interests of US taxpayers
or foreign policy at heart.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
And the well.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Connected Americans will from opposite sides of the aisle will
sometimes go to work for the same shadowy, deep pocketed
for an interests. So you see Republicans and Democrats who
in the US are fighting these ideological battles, setting aside
their ideological concerns about democracy or human rights to work
for sometimes brutal, bloodstained dictators on the same side in
(01:33):
a way that I think would surprise a lot of Americans.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
How prevalent in widespread is this how big? I mean,
you mentioned the billion dollar industry figure, but how big
of a setup do these foreign governments have in Washington,
DC for this kind of stuff?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Yeah, I mean it's there's an inverse relationship in some
ways between like how aligned these interests are with with
like traditional US idea about democracy and human rights, and
how much money they have to spend.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And that's because sometimes.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
You know, you have like dictators who are oligarchs who
have accrued these huge fortunes, sometimes in ill be gotten ways,
and so like there the types of people who would
typically be on the US radar, and the US would encourage,
you know, anti corruption prosecutions against them in their own
countries or would slap sanctions on them. So they have
a lot of money, they have a great they have
(02:26):
a lot writing on the results of US foreign policy,
and they're willing to pay more money to these lobbyists
to try to help them navigate Washington. And the lobbyists
also like they know that if they take a client
that's particularly noxious, it's going to exact some reputational costs
on them, So the payday better be worthwhile. And that's
(02:48):
why you know it's a multi billion dollar industry. And that's,
by the way, only the elements of it that are disclosed.
There's plenty of this type of behavior and action that
goes on behind the scenes and never gets disclosed. But
it sure has paid for a lot of vacation homes
on Maryland's eastern shore and a lot of private school
tuitions in Washington for a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Of very wealthy and well connected people.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
We're joined by The Vogel, author of Devil's Advocates The
Hidden Story of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden, and Washington insiders
on the payrolls of corrupt foreign interests. So when you've
got these foreign governments or oligarchs hiring US lobbyists, what
are they trying to buy? Is it just access? Is
it influence? Is it outcomes? Is it all of it?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, it's all of it.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I mean it ranges from you know, in cases where
there's like marginal allies who are facing concerns in the
US about like how they're using US military assistants or
US foreign policy assistants and they want to like keep
that money flowing. They hire lobbyists or they pay well
connected people around a president or vice president to sort
(03:56):
of allay the concerns that sometimes arise when you see
a regime that is supported by the US engaging in
activity that is not condoned by the US.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
And sometimes it is.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Getting out of trouble like they're you know, oligarch ser
or foreign leaders who get sanctioned by the US for
corruption or for human rights violations, and that really impinges
upon their ability to stay in power and to accrue
wealth and to set up their families, and so they're
willing to pay a lot of money to get off
of US sanctions. Sometimes it is just access that they
(04:31):
want a photo with the president or a vice president
that they can then go home and say like, look,
I'm supported by the US even if they're not. But
that just that proximity and that access is quite valuable
to them, and that's why they're willing to pay for it.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
You have two big, well known names in the title
of your book as examples of what's going on here.
Tell us about Rudy Giuliani and Hunter Biden and how
they're connected to all of this.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, yeah, I wanted to.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
That was an effort to show the bipartisan nature of this,
and we all know the sort of what's spilled over
into the public in a big scandalous way around the
first impeachment of Donald Trump, where Rudy Giuliani was encouraging
Trump to use the levers of power to pressure the
Ukrainians to essentially like dig up dirt on Hunter Biden.
(05:22):
This was in the run up to the twenty twenty
election where Trump was likely to face Biden ultimately did
face Biden, and so you could see why it would
be of political benefit to Trump and Juliani to be
able to sort of undercut Joe Biden's image as you know,
this fighter against corruption and sort of a very you know,
(05:42):
having an integrity filled track record in government, and you know,
there was like there there. Hunter Biden did, in fact
travel around the world, particularly during his father's vice presidency,
going to work for a number of shadowy foreign interests
who were averse to US foreign policy. This is in
Ukraine with the gas company and the oligarch who owned it.
(06:04):
This is in Romania with another oligarch who was a
property property developer. It was in China where he was
working with the Chinese Length Fund, Chinese Government Length Fund,
And so there was there there, there was stuff that,
like you know, that I think did undermine Joe Biden's
image as sort of an anti corruption champion and as
(06:27):
a global statesman. The interesting thing was that Rudy Giuliani
had a long history of working in this exact industry,
including with and for some of the very same foreign
interest that Hunter Biden had worked for. So in some
ways he had a little bit of a roadmap and
a home field advantage to be able to show this
(06:47):
type of corruption. In other ways, of course, it was
blatant hypocrisy for him to do so. So the intertwining
stories they're intertwining sort of journeys through this foreign influence industry,
I thought were like very evocative and interesting. Some of
the characters for whom they worked and tried to help
get out of Trouble were, you know, implicated US foreign
(07:08):
policy in a big way, So they were natural focuses
of the book.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Last question for you, you spent a long time covering money
in politics. How does foreign lobbying compare to say, domestic
political fundraising in terms of influence and outcomes.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of similarities in the
sense that, like the lobbyists and those who get access
and are there for the most sought after among both
domestic and foreign interests are those who are top fundraisers
for presidents or members of Congress, those who have close
family or outside business connections to them, and they use
(07:49):
some of the same techniques. Where the differences arise is
that on the forearn side it's just a lot more
opaque and it's harder to follow the money, uh, because
the reporting requirements in the US are sort of loophole ridden,
and because you know, for all the complaining that we
do about the American system and the transparency or lack thereof,
(08:10):
we have laws like the disclosure laws, transparency laws, conflict
of interest laws that are in many ways the envy
of the rest of world, or maybe they're not the
envy because there are probably people of the rest of
the world who want who benefit from the opacity and
the shadowy nature of their politics. But you know, but
but we're able to follow the money a lot more
on the domestic side, and you know, I think there
(08:32):
we like to think that those laws prevent corruption of
the sort that we see in the developing world and
in you know, the former Soviet world. What I found
in my book is now some of the same pay
to play mindset, despite these laws, is still present. So
we can follow the money a little bit better, not
as well as we con on the domestic side, but
there's still the same. It doesn't prevent the type of
(08:54):
pay to play access and influence pedaling that we see
around the world.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Tenne's p. Vogel, author of The Devil's advocates the hidden
story of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden, and Washington insiders on
the payrolls of corrupt foreign interests. Kenneth really appreciate the
time and insight and best of luck with the book.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, I enjoyed the chat. Thanks. It's a Ryan Gorman
Show five to nine every weekday morning on news radio WFLA.
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