November 6, 2025 • 4 mins
ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl discusses his new book Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Let's go to the hotline and bring in ABC News
chief Washington correspondent and author of the new book Retribution,
Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America, Jonathan carl
Is with us this morning. Jonathan really appreciate it taking
a few minutes to come on the show. And my
first question, when you are looking to write a book
on Trump and that twenty twenty four presidential campaign, how
(00:24):
in the world did you whittle the content down to
a fifth what you wanted in? There's so much to
unpack from all of that.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Oh my god, it's such a good question. It was
a campaign for the ages. I knew that. I knew.
That's why I wanted to write the book. I kept
a very detailed journal day to day and was able
to go back and try to answer questions you just
can't get answered in the crush of news over the
course of the campaign. But of course the news kept
(00:55):
calming the transition, Trump's entry into the White House, deep
sad exit of Joe Biden. So I you know, it
was one of the great things about writing a book
is you get to take a step back and think
what really mattered, what were the key moments. But trust me,
it wasn't easy. And this is the longest book I've
ever written because there's so much.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
So I think one of the most interesting aspects to
this book is your focus on this new group that
is around Trump. And this was a team and a
group who came in in this second Trump term with
some goals and some ideas, and it's much different than
(01:38):
what we saw back in twenty seventeen, right.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Entirely different. First of all, you know, it's a very
small band of people. It's just a handful of people
who are still with Trump. When he leaves the White
House in twenty twenty one, you know, he's impeached, Senate
trial is coming, the criminal cases are coming, and a
lot of the Republicans, a lot of the people who
served him have basically abandoned him. And it's, you know,
(02:03):
a small group of people. It's people like Steven Miller,
Steve Bannon, Boris Epstein. They are still with him, and
they begin plotting his return to power, and not just
his return to power, but what he would do if
he got back to the White House. So when Trump
came in the first time, you know, he relied on
(02:23):
outside people, people he didn't know very well. He got
four star generals like Mattison Kelly to come with him.
He brought in the excellent CEO Rex Tillerson to be
a Secretary of State. He thought all of those people
basically betrayed him. So this time around, the people that
were with him and the people that were getting ready
(02:43):
for this second Trump White House were driven almost entirely
by personal loyalty to Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
We're joined by ABC News chief Washington correspondent Jonathan Carl,
author of the new book Retribution Donald Trump in the
Campaign That Changed America. You're around Trump all the time.
You have interesting exchanges. Sometimes they're more pleasant than others.
What is something about the president, about what you see
every day, about what you saw in the writing of
(03:13):
this book, that the general public would have no idea
is going on? Is happening? Doesn't have any insight into well.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
One of the extraordinary things about this campaign that is different.
I've known Trump for thirty one years now. I met
as a young reporter for the New York Post. I
was the first interview that he did on network television
when he of the twenty sixteen cycle. I mean this
was two years before he came down the escalators known
him well, But what was different this time is I
(03:45):
started talking to him directly over the phone, calling him up.
The first call was right after the shooting in Butler,
and then as the fall campaign came on. I think
people might be surprised that the former president of the
United States, future president of the United States, the Republican nominee, that,
even in the crushing all that was happening during that campaign,
(04:08):
would almost always pick up the phone when I called,
and was also, you know, frequently asking me questions. So
I'm calling him. I'm a reporter and I want to
see where his heads it. But he he I think
one of the big reasons why he did take calls
from people like me is he's getting input. What's it going,
(04:28):
how's it going, what's it looking like out there? And
he may want to argue with me about it or not,
but he wants to know what I'm seeing.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Well, I want to let you go because that might
have been him who just called you. I heard the
phone ring even in the background. ABC News chief Washington
correspondent and author of the new book Retribution Donald Trump
in the Campaign That Changed America Jonathan Carl with US
Jonathan really appreciate the time.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Thanks so much, you got it, took care. Bye,
Let's go to the hotline and bring in ABC News
chief Washington correspondent and author of the new book Retribution,
Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America, Jonathan carl
Is with us this morning. Jonathan really appreciate it taking
a few minutes to come on the show. And my
first question, when you are looking to write a book
on Trump and that twenty twenty four presidential campaign, how
(00:24):
in the world did you whittle the content down to
a fifth what you wanted in? There's so much to
unpack from all of that.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Oh my god, it's such a good question. It was
a campaign for the ages. I knew that. I knew.
That's why I wanted to write the book. I kept
a very detailed journal day to day and was able
to go back and try to answer questions you just
can't get answered in the crush of news over the
course of the campaign. But of course the news kept
(00:55):
calming the transition, Trump's entry into the White House, deep
sad exit of Joe Biden. So I you know, it
was one of the great things about writing a book
is you get to take a step back and think
what really mattered, what were the key moments. But trust me,
it wasn't easy. And this is the longest book I've
ever written because there's so much.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
So I think one of the most interesting aspects to
this book is your focus on this new group that
is around Trump. And this was a team and a
group who came in in this second Trump term with
some goals and some ideas, and it's much different than
(01:38):
what we saw back in twenty seventeen, right.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Entirely different. First of all, you know, it's a very
small band of people. It's just a handful of people
who are still with Trump. When he leaves the White
House in twenty twenty one, you know, he's impeached, Senate
trial is coming, the criminal cases are coming, and a
lot of the Republicans, a lot of the people who
served him have basically abandoned him. And it's, you know,
(02:03):
a small group of people. It's people like Steven Miller,
Steve Bannon, Boris Epstein. They are still with him, and
they begin plotting his return to power, and not just
his return to power, but what he would do if
he got back to the White House. So when Trump
came in the first time, you know, he relied on
(02:23):
outside people, people he didn't know very well. He got
four star generals like Mattison Kelly to come with him.
He brought in the excellent CEO Rex Tillerson to be
a Secretary of State. He thought all of those people
basically betrayed him. So this time around, the people that
were with him and the people that were getting ready
(02:43):
for this second Trump White House were driven almost entirely
by personal loyalty to Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
We're joined by ABC News chief Washington correspondent Jonathan Carl,
author of the new book Retribution Donald Trump in the
Campaign That Changed America. You're around Trump all the time.
You have interesting exchanges. Sometimes they're more pleasant than others.
What is something about the president, about what you see
every day, about what you saw in the writing of
(03:13):
this book, that the general public would have no idea
is going on? Is happening? Doesn't have any insight into well.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
One of the extraordinary things about this campaign that is different.
I've known Trump for thirty one years now. I met
as a young reporter for the New York Post. I
was the first interview that he did on network television
when he of the twenty sixteen cycle. I mean this
was two years before he came down the escalators known
him well, But what was different this time is I
(03:45):
started talking to him directly over the phone, calling him up.
The first call was right after the shooting in Butler,
and then as the fall campaign came on. I think
people might be surprised that the former president of the
United States, future president of the United States, the Republican nominee, that,
even in the crushing all that was happening during that campaign,
(04:08):
would almost always pick up the phone when I called,
and was also, you know, frequently asking me questions. So
I'm calling him. I'm a reporter and I want to
see where his heads it. But he he I think
one of the big reasons why he did take calls
from people like me is he's getting input. What's it going,
(04:28):
how's it going, what's it looking like out there? And
he may want to argue with me about it or not,
but he wants to know what I'm seeing.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Well, I want to let you go because that might
have been him who just called you. I heard the
phone ring even in the background. ABC News chief Washington
correspondent and author of the new book Retribution Donald Trump
in the Campaign That Changed America Jonathan Carl with US
Jonathan really appreciate the time.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Thanks so much, you got it, took care. Bye,
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