The Saturday Stein Line with Marc Stein (September 30, 2023) Full

The Mavericks' season is underway and we've got some insider whispers from training camp as well as an interview with longtime Mavs center Dwight Powell. All that, furthermore, is sandwiched by an in-depth breakdown of the Damian Lillard-to-Milwaukee blockbuster trade along with a bonus detour to Hollywood to check in with Rolling Stone's Alan Sepinwall for all the ins and outs of the demise of HBO's "Winning Time" series on the Showtime Lakers of the 1980s.

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Welcome to a Saturday Stein Line withMark Stein, presented by Panini Trading Cards
and Collectibles. On ninety seven one, the Freak the official homes will Dallas
Nevericks games, hosted by legendary NBAreporter and publisher of his substract, The
Stein Line. Here's Mark Stein.Welcome in everyone to the latest edition of

(00:32):
the Saturday Stein Line presented by PaniniTrading Cards and Collectibles. Yes, I
am back in studio after my lasthurrah escape before the season starts. Seven
thousand miles away from here. That'swhere I was hiding on the glorious picturesque

(00:57):
coast of the Mediterranean Sea. I'mall the way back now though, And
so friends, is the National BasketballAssociation. Come Monday, all thirty teams
on the NBA map will be officiallyback to work. And this past Wednesday,

(01:19):
yes, that's also when the DallasMavericks in the Minnesota Timberwolves became the
first two teams this season to returnto the practice floor. But no,
that was not the headline of theday. Damian Lillard traded from Portland to
Milwaukee in a genuine, first class, top shelf NBA blockbuster three team trade.

(01:47):
That was the headline of the day. Let's be honest, that was
the headline of the whole off season, really, and that is what we
are going to focus on here inthe opening stanza of this edition of the
Saturday Stein Line presented by Panini ofAmerica. Lots of Maverick's training camp talk

(02:10):
to come in segment two, specialguests Dwight Powell, a Maverick for nearly
a decade. Now we're gonna dosomething a little different. In segment three,
we're gonna welcome in Rolling Stones AlanSepinwall, their chief TV critic,
to break down what happened to HBO'swinning Time, the docu drama on the

(02:34):
nineteen eighties Showtime Lakers that I'm sure, even though the Lakers are not always
not always a welcome topic here inDFW, but I'm guessing the basketball fans
who listen to this show every Saturdayyou were watching that series abruptly canceled by
HBO after just two seasons. Butcome on, we've got to dig into

(02:57):
this trade. This was a truewhopper, true blockbuster on this scorecard.
Yes, Milwaukee, the Bucks ofMilwaukee instantly become my favorites to win the
Eastern Conference. Now I'm not willingto go farther than that, because,

(03:19):
listen, maybe this was always destinedto happen, given how much the NBA
world at large slept on Nicola Yokichand Jamal Murray until the Denver Nuggets actually
won the championship. Still, I'mhaving trouble computing it is astonishing to me

(03:40):
how little going into a season,how close we are to the start of
a season, how little we're talkingabout and hearing about the defending champions.
The Nuggets are still being disrespected afterwhat they did to Miami and the NBA
Finals, and what they did tothe Lakers and the Suns and the Timberwolves

(04:01):
and the Western Conference playoffs before that, Can we show a little love to
the champs? Seriously, barely hearda peep about them all week, and
the only one who is happy aboutthat, surely is Nuggets coach Michael Malone,
who loves loves to play that nobodytalks about us card. But that's

(04:28):
a subject for a different day.I do want to remind you that you
can always weigh in via the Steinlinetext line. Still in search by the
way of a sponsor for the Steinlinetext line, The season is here.
Everybody doesn't, doesn't someone in theDFW area. Isn't there a fine establishment

(04:49):
that wants to sponsor the steinline textline and get an hour's worth of shout
outs for me every Saturday? Comeon? Who could pass that up?
Two one four seven, eight sevenone nine seven one or eight one seven
seven eight seven one nine seven one. Let me know what you think about

(05:12):
the Bucks and the Nuggets and whois the true favorite to win the twenty
twenty three NBA Championship. And alsoyou can email me at Mark Stein one
word m r c S one word, excuse me, one word m r
c S. T e I Nat substack dot com if you want to

(05:38):
talk about the text line thing.Back to our primary focus, as I
worked through some coughs and try toget my radio voice back here. How
this trade soaking up all the oxygenin the NBA tells you how seismic it

(06:00):
was. How Portland flat out refusedto deal with the Miami Heat, pretty
much refusing at all to engage withthe Heat, the team that Damian Lillard
wanted to be traded to. Youhave to read my dear friend Chris Haynes
piece which posted Thursday on Bleacher Report, Chris and I, of course we

(06:25):
co host Ihearts This League Uncut podcast, So yes, I'm biased Chris's family,
but I'm telling you, man,he revealed so much in that piece
and takes the reader so deeply insidehow this trade really went down. The
determination of Portland's new GM Joe Cronanto send Lillard anywhere but Miami, which

(06:54):
means that the Heat after willingly bowingout of the Bradley Beale trade sweepstakes in
June, the Heat wanted to savetheir chips. They sensed that Damian Lillard
was about to become available, butthey wind up getting neither Beal nor Lillard,
while the Bucks after ingesting two veryscary interviews that Jannis Anti Kumpo gave

(07:19):
this summer, first to my PaletoniaGangouli in the New York Times and then
to the forty eight Minutes podcast thatfeatures my long time ESPN colleague and producer
Bruce Bernstein. Jannis. In thosetwo interviews he talked so openly about how
he was not going to commit hislong term future to the Bucks until he

(07:42):
had much more of a comfort levelwith Miami's ability to keep competing for championships
and what happens. The Bucks heardhim loudly, they heard him clearly.
They acted swiftly. Milwaukee surrenders thebeloved Drew Holiday to the Trailblazers to really

(08:05):
set this blockbuster in motion. Andbecause Milwaukee made this trade, they've enhanced
the likelihood the chances that Janice isindeed going to stay in Bruetown. He's
already been there for more than adecade. But you know, this certainly
gives Milwaukee much more hope that theycan keep him. It weakens the Heat

(08:28):
in the process because they don't getLillard, and we know that the Heat
or one of those teams like theMavericks that have always had fantasy designs of
trying to trying to lure Jannius awayfrom Milwaukee. I know there will be
skeptics who are very loud when theysay that Damian Lillard's defensive deficiencies and his
age because Dame is thirty three.Now, the skeptics are going to say

(08:54):
this trade is far riskier for Milwaukeethan it looks on paper, especially when
you've got Holidays, stellar excuse me, stellar, and sticky perimeter defense going
out the door at the same time, same time. But look, the
Bucks had to do this, peoplehad to do it for starters. It

(09:22):
makes Yannis happy, shows how seriousthe Bucks are about keeping him happy.
Most of all, though, nomatter what happens from here, no matter
what fate befalls the Bucks taking aswing this big, it enables Bucks officials

(09:45):
to be able to look their fanssquarely in the eye and say they've done
everything they possibly could to convince Jannisto stay in Milwaukee and that the Bucks
should always be the team for him. And that is the way you have
to approach it. When you havea Yanni sent to Koompa on the roster,

(10:07):
and frankly, if you have aLuca don chich on your roster,
every move you make, every movemust and should be made through the lens
of the Janni's goggles that you nevertake off, wear them at all times.

(10:33):
Now, when it comes to Portland, a firm grade on how the
Blazers fared here, that's gotta waituntil we see what happens with Drew Holiday
and what they get for him inthe next trade and a local fyi as
a Friday night. Based on mylatest information, Dallas was not among the
teams trying to get into the Holidaytrade mix as tantalizing as it surely is

(10:56):
for MAVs fans to imagine Drew Holidaypaying either with Luca or Kyrie irving in
the backcourt or playing as a thirdguard beside them. Let's face it,
the Blazers are trying to extract atleast two future first round picks from whichever

(11:16):
contender they send Holloway to Holiday two. And that's in addition to top young
talent and the Mavericks they don't havetwo first round picks available to put on
the table to get into that race. The Clippers, Boston, Philly,
those are the most frequently cited suitorsfor Holiday so far. And I am

(11:43):
definitely in the camp that says thatHoliday is going to be a huge difference
maker wherever he lands. I knowMAVs fans are also curious about the Phoenix
aspect of this. Why were theSuns willing to trade DeAndre eight into Portland
and established the Suns is the thirdteam facilitator in this deal after the Sun's
rejected a Draft night offer from Dallasfor eighton that featured Tim Hardaway Jr.

(12:07):
Rashaun Holmes and JaVale McGee. It'ssimple, really, and I know Maths
fans are not necessarily going to agreewith this stance, but Phoenix liked this
option better because the Sun see YusefNurkis is a starting level center, which
is something they weren't being offered intheir talks with Dallas. So in addition

(12:28):
to the depth that the Sun's acquired, they got Naser Little from the Blazers,
they got Grayson Allen from the Bucks. I mean, you can tell
as we try to work through allthese things, there are so many different
angles and different directions that we cango with this trade. And we're just
getting started really in our assessment ofwhat it means and how this blockbuster is

(12:52):
going to impact the NBA's seventy eighthseason. It's true up to seventy eight
seasons. The immediate conclusions for meMiami clear loser, having endured what probably
ranks is the most frustrating, dispiritingsummer on South Beach fits twenty eleven,

(13:13):
when a certain underdog team from NorthTexas stun Lebron James Dwyane Wade, Chris
Bosh and the Heatles in the NBAFinals. Or maybe if we're being a
touch more realistic the summer of twentyfourteen when Lebron James decided to go back
to Cleveland after four seasons as aheatle. Anyway, for Miami, it

(13:33):
is a serious l off season.The Bucks for me huge winners, no
matter what potential risks and downsides youwant to throw at me. Their playoff
problems in recent years have all comeat the offensive end, shot creation,
having something dynamic on the perimeter.They will have that now with Dame Lillard,
who, by the way, asmister Haynes, sat on our podcast

(13:56):
more than once, Janna and Game. These guys have been wanting to play
together and now they're going to getthat chance. Grading Phoenix and Portland.
As I said, that's gonna takeus some more time. But the season
is just getting started, y'all.Time is what we have in abundance,

(14:18):
albeit not exactly in this segment,because I've got Alan Ao behind the glass
telling me I need to grab abreak. Shout out to both Alan and
Grooves the glue guy, for helpingme assemble all the pieces to this week's
puzzle. On the other side ofthis break, we got so much more
goodness on the way on this SaturdayStein Line powered by Panini America. The

(14:41):
longest tenured MAV Dwight Powell, hejoins me next here on ninety seven one
The Freak. You're listening with MarkStein presenting cards and collectibles of Home.
The Freak Saturday Steinline dribbles on Indeedpowered by Panini America. Before we get

(15:07):
to our visit with Maverick Center DwightPole, let's discuss a few MAVs whispers
I've heard this week. After thefirst four official practices, and by the
way, the team is on thefloor as we speak with their Saturday practice.
They've already had a tweak to theschedule. Two days are over,
two practices on both Wednesday and Thursday. Before media Day Friday, they've gone

(15:28):
to only one session for today aftertwo were initially planned. One tomorrow before
the team flies direct to Abu Dhabi. And yes it is a direct flight,
but man, fifteen hours and changeis the estimate. I repeat fifteen
hours now. I am a seasontraveler. I love to travel. You

(15:52):
could even say I live to travel. I've been going abroad since I was
three or four years old. Buta fifteen hour straight shot not gonna lie.
Not the way that I would wantto start an NBA season. Just
wow. Some quick rumbles about what'sbeen going on on the floor. I'm

(16:14):
told Josh Green has looked quite sharpout of the gate, not too surprising
after his stint at the World Cupwith Australia. I'm told rookie center Derek
Lively the second continues to turn heads. I really think he's going to end
up starting at center for this team, starting against Wemby and San Antonio on

(16:40):
October twenty five. And Jason Kidd, the guest last week on the Saturday
Steine Line presented by Panini, heall but promised that, and so I
think we've we've really reached the pointalready. Lively would have to play his
way out of the starting spot inthe exhibition games. That's at least the
way it reads to me. Highenergy, great spirit. These are some

(17:03):
of the adjectives that have been sharedwith me about the first four practices from
various informants, The expected high marksfor Luca Donchich and Kyrie Irving and how
they look. I stopped by Wednesdayand Thursday to listen to both Lucas and
Kyrie's first press conferences of the season. Perhaps you already saw Thursday when I

(17:26):
tweeted out Kyrie irving standout line fromhis sit down. He acknowledged that he
hears the noise, but he insiststhat the Donchich Irving tag team, which
could only manage a five and elevenrecord last season when both stars were in
uniform, Kyrie insists it is goingto flourish. That they will flourish as

(17:48):
a duo with a training camp anda full season to coalesce. Quote where
both killers on the court, Irvingsaid, everybody knows it? Does everybody
buy it? League wide? Undeniably? There is still a degree of skepticism.
We can say this much though theaforementioned Dwight Powell MAVs lifer Dwight Powell

(18:15):
about to begin his tenth season inthe NBA, nine plus of them in
Dallas. He's sold, and hesays as much in our chat. So
let's pitch it to the convo withPowell, which leads off with some of
his reflection on his summer with theCanadian national team. So before we get

(18:36):
to the Mavericks third place finish atthe World Cup, Canada beats the United
States in the third place game,clinching a birth in next summer's Olympics in
Paris. Pretty good summer, Iwould say. For Dwight Powe, No,
definitely, definitely. That was agreat experience for sure, And I

(18:56):
think the Olympic dream was a bigone for all of us for quite some
time, and we'd come close toomany times. So to finally get that
done and in the fashion that wedid, it meant a lot to our
group, obviously meant a lot tothe Federation, our country. So definitely
great summer. Because it's true thereare a lot of international basketball nerds out

(19:18):
there like me who have been talkingabout Canada and the potential you guys have
had for years. To put thatall together and play against the United States.
What was that actually like to finallybe on the floor with those guys
a game that a lot of uson the outside have been wanting to see
for ages. No, it wasgreat. And I think the great thing
about international basketball, especially now,is they're great players all over the world,

(19:41):
and they're great teams all over theworld. So there's a great collection
of players now, especially in theNBA, that play for their country,
but there are also teams that havebeen together for a very long time,
and and teams that have had coachesand systems for a very long time.
So at that level, every singlegame that's a different challenge. So to

(20:02):
win in that environment and to puta group together that is of that caliber
was huge. And then you know, the the icing on the cake,
of course, play playing against theUS in that metal game. You know,
it's we play in America. Welive in America, so it's it's
something we think about, of course. So that was that was a great
experience. All right. That's probablyabout as much feedbaball as I can get

(20:23):
away with talking because everybody's got somany MAVs questions. But we will come
back to that later because obviously there'sgonna be a lot of Mavericks that next
Summer's Olympics. Here with Dwhite,pal of the Dallas Mavericks, here on
ninety seven one the Freak. Takeus inside training camp so far, what
you've seen, and maybe maybe giveus a Luca and Kyrie scattering report from
your veteran perspective. It's been great, it's been great. Guys are I

(20:48):
guess I think the first the biggesttakeaway is, guys are hitting the ground
running. I think everyone's locked in. Everybody's on the same page, and
guys are in shape, which iswhich makes things easier, It makes things
more fun, makes the competition about, you know, skill, about picking
up our principles, about finding waysto be effective, not so much catching
your breath. So that's that's huge. I think we're going to continue to
get even better shape, which iswhich is great. So it's exciting.

(21:11):
It's definitely exciting. There's been alot of talk about how challenging it's going
to be for you guys to goaway for almost two weeks and you've already
done your fair share of traveling havingplayed a far away World Cup with Canada.
What do you think that trip isgoing to be like? How how
demanding is it going to be onyou guys to be gone for so long

(21:33):
and then come back and get yourselvesback on us time before the NBA season
starts. I mean in terms ofgetting back on time after we're done.
We've got a great strength of conditioningstaff. We've got a great we have
great staff all around the board thatwill put us in position to make sure
we make that transition smoothing and asquickly as possible. But in terms of

(21:53):
the trip itself, I think it'sgreat. I think that having that much
time together in a new environment,experiencing a new culture. I think a
majority of our guys probably have notspent much time in the Middle East and
have not spent much time in theUAE. So to see some new sites
to learn together, especially things thatare non basketball related, I think has

(22:15):
a positive impact on the court.So to sharing those you know, these
are genuine life experiences. So we'revery fortunate to have this trip one because
we have to spend so much timetogether and to continue to grow and too,
we have so many young guys forthem to kind of broaden their horizons
and see the world and become someonemore you know, cultured and educated.

(22:37):
As much as it may not seemhas as much as it may not seem
to have an impact on the court, I am a firm believer that it
does. These sorts of trips buildyou know, team chemistry, they build
team camaraderie, but they also buildteam characters. So we'll have to go
through a lot of fun things andlearning things together. But like you said,
the coming back and getting back ontime and make sure I'm audies are

(23:00):
taken care of. We're going togo through that adversity together. So I
think it's it's good all around theMavericks. Dwight pal here with us on
ninety seven one, The Freak onthe Saturday Stein Line, presented by Panini
America. Before we get to thecenter spot, let me ask, let
me drill down again, just LucaKyrie. There's obviously a lot of curiosity
about how they're gonna mesh as aduo. I know it's early days,

(23:22):
only a few practices, but tellme what you've seen so far? Yeah,
I mean it's the game is soeasy for both of them, and
they both make the right plays regardless, So they're they're meshing, and they'll
continue to mesh and and they'll continueto mesh even better. So their their
chemistry is already there simply because theyknow how to play the game the right
way. But they're both so sotalented. As they learn more about each

(23:45):
other, and as we learn moreabout them and figure out ways that we
can support that their style of playand the different scenarios that we'll find ourselves
in will only get better and better. As as zeroes on so it's it's
exciting. I had Jason Kid onthe show last week and he said,
from his perspective, the center spot, the starting center spot, is up

(24:06):
for grabs, but it sounds likehe's giving the rookie Derek Lively the first
kind of crack at winning that.What's your approach as far as you know,
trying to win the job or arewe just where you see yourself slotting
into the team this year. Yeah, my focus in terms of winning is
games. So we all have arole that we need to play, and

(24:27):
we all have to do our bestwithin that role to help us be successful
as a team. First. Sowhatever it is that I'm asked to do,
I'm going to try and to I'mgonna try and execute to the best
of my ability. And whatever rolethat may be starting or not, or
whatever position it is, or whateverrole it is offensively defensively, it's my

(24:48):
job as a pro to execute that. So I look forward to whatever the
rotation may be. And and Derek'sdone a great job so far. He's
he's come in, he's got greatenergy. He's fifteen years old, so
he's jumping out of the gym stillis He's an amazing shape, which is
is tough. You got you havea long summer as a rookie. You
come right out of your season.You're jumping into tryouts and workouts and summer

(25:11):
league and trying to learn a newsystem, a new style of play.
And he's done a great job ofthat. He's picked up our stuff.
So he's coming in, like Isaid, hit the ground running, which
is super important. So I'm veryexcited for him. What's it like for
you now to be one of youknow, you're the longest tenured guy on
this team. When when you firstgot traded here, what did you imagine
about your time in Dallas? Yeah, when I first got here is definitely

(25:36):
a survival mode, just do whateverI can to see tomorrow. Just trying
to find ways to be effective,trying to find ways to help the team,
trying to find ways to prove Ibelong. So to be here looking
at season ten ahead of me istruly a blessing because you've been here so
long. How comfortable do you feelspeaking up and saying things because you do

(25:59):
have that tenure. Yeah, that'sdefinitely been been a growing process for me
over the years. Is learned touse my voice and point things out.
But I think this is gonna bea good year for that because we do
have a bunch of young guys andwe do have a bunch of veteran guys.
So communication is going to be key, not only on the floor as
we've always done, but more soin the locker room and outside of outside

(26:22):
of the line. So looking forwardto to developing that further. Our last
few moments here with the Mavericks Dwightpal here on ninety seven one. The
freak the way I heard at theHouston Rockets came after you in free agency.
How close were you to actually leavingthe MAVs. Yeah, Free agencies
is always a weird, weird thing. You know, I wanted to be

(26:44):
here from the jump, and butit's kind of you know, you do
sihare responsibility to see what situations areout there, but Dallas is home and
I always wanted to be here.The free agency process in general enjoyable,
stress, it's full. How wouldyou kind of characterize it? Yeah,
I'm honestly not a huge fan,not a huge fan. It's it's it's

(27:06):
a weird, it's a weird situation. It's you know, at my stage
in my career, you know,having been fortunate enough to play as many
seasons as I have, it's alwaysgood. It's a good feeling to have
teams interested in you. But butlike I said, I think I'm in
a unique spot where I've been herefor so long and and I love the
city, I love this franchise,and especially love what we have going on

(27:27):
right now, so I definitely wantto be here. What do you see
as realistic expectations for this team thiscoming season, Because it's it's hard for
people in my position to evaluate.Two years ago, you guys are in
the conference finals. Last year youfall all the way out of the playoffs
to eleventh, and we've now seena ton of roster change. Where should

(27:48):
we be projecting the MAVs in areally, really difficult Western conference. Yeah,
I think the conferences are always difficult, is the NBA. But I
think the goal has to be achampionship, otherwise you're selling yourself short.
I think a team has to win, and we're all at zero zero right
now, so we have we havea lot of opportunities to prove ourselves.

(28:10):
We have a lot of room forgrowth still in this training camp and as
we go through these preseason games andentering the season. But I don't I
think we'd be selling ourselves short sendinga goal anything lower than that last one
season ten? What can we doto protect the facial area? You seem
to take a lot many, manyshots to the face. I'm sure I'm

(28:30):
not the first person to point itout or ask you about it. How
are we going to protect you?In year ten? In Dallas? Prayer?
That's all we got. Yeah,ten years in of you know,
the looks are fading anyway, Soit is what it is. Thank you
for the time, mister Powell.Thank you for indulging the question about how

(28:52):
many how much facial damage you aresubjected to over the course of the season.
Thank you Alan Rikowski and Scott Tomlinfor their assistance in making that interview
happen. Congratulations are in order forScooter Tomlin. Rough start to the season
for his Bengals, but Tomlin announcedFriday that after two decades with the Mavericks,

(29:15):
he's going to work for a certainDirk Novitski as Dirk's full time communications
officer and executive director of the DirkDavitsky Foundation. End of an era in
MAVs Land and before I get emotionalabout that, we're gonna go to break.
But don't worry. Lots more ofthe Saturday Stein Line to come next.
Here on ninety seven one Free.This is Dirk Lewitsky and you're listening

(29:40):
to the Saturday Stein Line with myguys Steiny on ninety seven one the Freak.
We're gonna shift now to some newground show our range here on the
Saturday Stein Line presented by Panini TradingCards and Collectibles. A real treat to
take a trip into the workings ofHollywood. I'm guessing many of you are

(30:06):
familiar said this in the first secondas well. I know the basketball,
the hoop pets out there. Iknow you're well acquainted with the HBO docu
drama Winning Time about the Showtime Lakersof the nineteen eighties. Sadly, we
are not going to get to seehow this series handles the nineteen eighty eight
Western Conference Finals when the Lakers takeon the upstart Dallas Mavericks that that series

(30:30):
went seven games. HBO has stunninglyand swiftly canceled this series after just two
seasons. It was on for sevenstraight Sundays this summer or even this summer
and now it is gone. Iwas highly critical multiple times on my sub
stack about the way this series portrayedvarious real life characters twisted real life details

(30:56):
in the name of drama dramatization.Of course, basketball historian like me is
going to react like that. It'salso true, though, that the nineteen
eighties will forever be a strong contenderfor the number one decade of my life,
certainly my favorite NBA decade. SoI really did want this show to
work and continue trying to bring thenineteen eighties back to life. Let's take

(31:22):
a detailed look now at why itdidn't make it, why it met with
such a swift dismissal. I turnedto one of my favorite scribes out there,
Alan sepinwhile Rolling Stones lead TV critic. Here's Alan breaking down. While
we actually shouldn't have been stunned tosee this outcome, it's not a surprise.
Honestly, when I started watching theseason two screeners, I thought to

(31:45):
myself, like, this was supposedto be a big deal, and nobody
was really watching it, and nobodywas really talking about it more than anything,
and it didn't get any awards nominations, and so I remember when I
watched the original version of the finale, which just ended with Mad sitting on
the floor of the Boston Garden showerin his uniform. I thought, well,
if this is it, this isgoing to be a really terrible way

(32:07):
to end it. You are notjust a TV critic, You're a huge
basketball fan, one of the foremostKnicks fans I know, so obviously I'm
guessing you, like me, we'rerooting for this to hit and be good
and have a long run. BecauseI'm a child of the eighties and I
was a hugely vocal critic of somany things about the series. But I'm

(32:30):
sad to see it go. Iwanted it to keep going. Why do
you think it didn't work and catchon more. I think there's a few
things. I think One, there'sjust too many TV shows right now.
Like once upon a time, ifyou did a show about the Showtime Lakers
that was fronted by John c Riley, that would be all anybody would be
talking about. Riley would have gottenan Emmy nomination, it would have sort

(32:52):
of been a big deal, andnow it just got swallowed up by everything
else. But two, I think, like sports TV shows are often a
very tough sell because you run intothis thing where people who love sports would
really rather just watch actual sports,and people who love more of like the
soap opera, you know, ongoingdramatic aspects of it, are not necessarily

(33:15):
into sports. I heard this allthe time with Friday Night Lights, which
is an incredible show, much betterthan I thought Winning Time ultimately was.
And it just like you almost hadto trick people into watching it and realizing
that they would like it. SoI think that as much as anything.
And it was weird, like byepisode three or four of it, the
only chattery you were hearing at allwas the fact that Jerry West was mad

(33:37):
that Kareem was mad that a lotof basketball writers were sort of, who,
you know, we're covering the sportback then, we're complaining about inaccuracy
and were and beyond that there reallynobody seemed to care. Yeah, and
look, just to show kind ofmy naivete about how all of Hollywood and
the TV business works, I actuallythought in season two I was thinking,

(34:00):
Wow, August, this is awesome. When there's no basketball on this show
is coming back, and basketball junkieswho free agency is over, they're just
gonna love devouring this every Sunday nightbecause it's it's the deadest time of the
year for basketball fans, and thatturned out to be completely wrong. It
really seems like season one, whichdebuted in March, really benefited from being

(34:23):
a side dish to the NCAA Tournamentin the NBA playoffs, So I should
probably stick to basketball writing. Imean, it's a really tough decision.
I think you can look at iteither way. And it's not like the
ratings for season one were so goodfor having run it opposite the spring basketball
I mean, there's a reason thatthe producers of the show were warned the

(34:45):
season two might be it, soyou maybe want to film an ending of
some kind just in case. So, yeah, it was. They were
in trouble no matter what. Idon't think that the one ratings were very
good, and then the season tworatings just confirmed that. And this was
not a cheap show either. Whenyou've got all of that talent and you're
shooting actual sports action and trying torecreate the late seventies and early eighties and

(35:07):
doing all the things that they're doing, that is not like an inexpensive show,
and so you have to be drawingnumbers that they were never drawing.
Alan Sepinwall, Rolling Stones TV critic, joining us here on ninety seven one,
The Freak on the Saturday Stein Line, presented by Panini. I urge
you to read him. Alan alsohas his own substack, and from my

(35:29):
seat, he covers TV like anNBA beat writer covers the beat. So
that's why I love reading him aboutthe shows. I love, like you
know, I wanted this to bea success. How much do you think
we should buy the premise coming fromWinning Times creators and staff, that the
writers strike really hampered their efforts tomarket this show properly, and that that

(35:51):
played a significant role in its earlydemise. I mean, I don't think
it helps. You could have hadRiley, you could have had Quincy Isaiah,
you could have had a bunch ofdifferent people from the show going on
talk shows, doing podcasts. Somebodywould have gone on hot ones, done
all of these things, making therounds, and none of that was available.
But they did all those things inseason one and it didn't, unfortunately,

(36:13):
make much of a dent. SoI just think that this show was
kind of doomed from the start.And you mentioned Ted Lasso and That's an
interesting comparison because obviously that was abig hit, and it's about sports,
but A it's about like a fictionalteam within a sport. But b it's
this big feel good show. Soyou're not necessarily watching it because you care

(36:34):
about, you know, Premier Leaguefootball. You're watching it because you really
love ted and it makes you feelhappy. And look, I am exactly
one of those crotchety sports writers.You can't fictionalize real people, and that
was one of my big issues withit that I know. You know,
they throw the disclaimer up before everyepisode, but if you're thirty and under

(36:54):
watching this and you don't know theactual history, well you're going to take
this as gospel. And that that'ssomething that always bugged me about, you
know, some of the details thatyou know. I guess their argument is
we have to dramatize it to makeit a better show, and I'm like,
changing some of the details and fictionalizingthings really make it better, you

(37:16):
know. I'm I just didn't seethat. And I think in season two
especially, they just ran into thisproblem of you're trying to cover a team
that was together for about a decade. You know, if you take Kareem's
retirement as basically the end of showtime, even though they made the finals again
without him a couple of years later. And you're trying to cover it within

(37:37):
the span of a show that's onlygoing to run a few years. And
so season two. Season one wasten episodes for one season. Season two
was seven episodes for four seasons,and so they were just you know,
skipping along the surface of everything,and even the things that they were trying
to show fidelity to, there wasn'treally any room for it. So like

(37:57):
Magic and Kareem go from not reallypiking each other and not getting along to
having this kind of mutual, grudgingmutual respect that basically comes together in between
episodes. It was just above andbeyond the fictionalization. They were just really
struggling to make this work as anykind of ongoing drama. Yeah, I
think that was a clue that evenI picked up on that ten episodes for

(38:20):
season one covering exclusively the nineteen seventynine eighty season, and then seven episodes
in season two that zoomed through fouryears was probably a signal that this show
was in some sort of trouble.Alan Sepinwall from Rolling Stone our guests here
on the Saturday Steine Line presented byPannini only on ninety seven one The Freak.

(38:44):
You know again, I am notnearly as well rounded in my TV
viewing as you, so I'm goingto defer to your expertise here. Another
one of my favorite shows is CobraKai and we saw that it was a
very underwhelming response in its YouTube incarnationand then it goes to Netflix, and
all of a sudden erupts. Whatare the chances from your seat that another

(39:04):
streamer could pick this show up andbring winning time back? I can't imagine
it. It's Cobra Kai A.It's not remotely as expensive as this b
It was made for like a streamerthat was only making scripted original TV for
like a year if that, andthey got out of the business right away,
and so there was only like oneseason of the show that had been

(39:25):
made, and so it was aneasy acquisition. And you know, I
know most people that don't even haveany idea that it originally was on YouTube
at this point, whereas this waslooked at, it's kind of a high
profile failure for HBO, and againa costly failure at that. So I
just don't see anybody else swooping into pick it up. Yeah, and

(39:49):
you know what, again, itsaddens me, and people who have read
my coverage of the show will say, Stein, what are you talking about?
You ripped this show at every turn. And again I loved that it
was bringing back the eighties and thedetail that they poured into it to try
to recreate the eighties. So likeI came into this season fingers crossed,
Please tell me it's gonna be better, it's gonna last, And it really

(40:12):
doesn't bring me joy to see itmeet this this early ending. But again
they you know, you've laid outa zillion reasons why this will not carry
on. It's just it's so strangefor it to end a show called Winning
Time and it's with the worst lossin the entire Showtime era. It's very

(40:34):
strange. Let's end with a Knicksitem, because again you are an absolute
Nicks obsessive. Drew Holiday, he'sout there. Do you want to see
do you want to see your Knickspair Jalen Brunson very well known to our
audience here, You want to seea Jalen Brunson Drew Holiday backcourt at Madison
Square Garden. It's a very toughdecision because he's incredible. I think he

(40:59):
would be a great fit this seasonwith Jalen Brunson. I just don't know
that acquiring Drew Holiday like actually makesthe team a title contender. And then
you've given up a significant amount ofyour AMMO that you would use to try
to acquire somebody else. But onthe other hand, like, I don't
think Janis now wants to leave Milwaukee. I don't know if if and bead

(41:20):
Is ever gonna want to leave Philly. So at a certain point you've got
to, you know, get offthe pot and make a move. I
mean it, Beads the one andBeads the one who everybody links to the
Knicks and thinks that if he triesto force his way out of Philadelphia at
some stage, that he'll want totry to get himself to MSG. So
I guess that's what the Knicks aresaving their trade assets for, since you

(41:42):
know they didn't spend him Mondonovan Mitchell, and you know, we'll see if
they pass on Drew Holiday as well. But I mean it, look if
Portland loves or j Barrett and like, he would be the centerpiece of a
deal that wouldn't cost much else.Beyond that, I would absolutely bring in
Drew Holiday and just watch that backcourtlike menace the rest of the association.

(42:04):
Everyone. I'm sure you all haveyour favorite TV shows, and I'm sure
it's a more well rounded list thanI maintain. And I promise you this
man he covers it. He coversTV like a blanket. Alan Steppinwall from
Rolling Stone A pleasure is always myfriend to catch up with you anytime,
Mark, Thank you, great show. Pack show presented by Panini Trading Cards

(42:29):
and Collectibles. I have to hurrythe goodbye somewhat, but I really look
forward to being with you guys nextweek because we are going to be in
the next show assessing those traveling MAVsin Abu Dhabi and Madrid. And next
week this show, which is normallynoon Central Time, we've got to move

(42:52):
it up to nine thirty in themorning. It's going to be the pre
pregame show nine thirty Saturday, Steinelineten MAVs pregame with Mike Peasley eleven am
the MAVs second game against Minnesota inAbu Dhabi, second of two exhibitions.
All right, gotta go,