11-25-25 - 9 am - Government Run Grocery Stores

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanksgiving and nobody gives a redsass, so they just no
talkbacks today.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Why don't you give me a talkback? Why don't you
talk back to me? Grant? Mister Grant, who's so happy
to be here today. My punishment from KOA for Thanksgiving
and being here during the holiday season is working with you,
Michael Brown. So I'm thankful to be here, aren't you
just aren't.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
You just exciting to be back there behind the glass today?

Speaker 2 (00:23):
So excited, so excited.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
I can just tell, I can just tell how excited
you are. Grant's about as excited to be here with
me today as I was. Open to today's Wall Street
Journal and read this headline, Are you ready inside Atlanta's
first government funded supermarket? Yes, King super Safeway Public's uh,

(00:48):
Harris Teeter, all of you, Pigley wiggily, there's a reference
for you. I'll just go away because the government's going
to come in and take over your grocery stores. Holy crap.
You know, of course, we're still dealing with Zophram, you know,
the newly elected mayor of New York City who has
said all along that he wanted to have government run
grocery stores because what says that the private sector isn't

(01:12):
doing their job as much as hearing that the federal
government or state government or local government was to come
in and take over a private sector operation. Talk about
mission creep.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
There you go. The sub ed in the Wall Street
Journal is this the goal?

Speaker 1 (01:31):
The goal is for the store to become profitable without
any government subsidies within three years. Anybody won't take any bets.
Here's the first paragraph. When the Azale fresh Market opened
this summer, it became the only supermarket to operate in
the city's downtown in two decades. Hmm gee, I wonder

(01:56):
why that a grocery store, you know, particularly when the
major chains now Mom and pop. I understand why Mom
and Pop probably doesn't want to uprate in downtown Atlanta.
When's the last time you were in downtown Atlanta? And
I don't mean like, you know, at the CNN Center
or the Olympic Center Square or whatever it's called, But
when were you in downtown Atlanta last and you know,

(02:20):
at one o'clock in the morning, you were like Jiminy Christmas,
I'd like to go grocery shopping, or I'd like to
just leave the hotel and just go you know, just
go for a jog at two o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yeah. I wouldn't do it either.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
I wonder why there aren't any major grocery chains in
downtown Atlanta.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
The next sentence in the first paragraph says this, to
make that happen, you know, in other words, to make
this grocery store in Atlanta happen, the city.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
No, wait a minute, the city didn't do this.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
It says the city contributed eight million dollars in cash
and other grants. The city did not do that. The
taxpayers in Atlanta did that. Yeah, they So everybody that's
that lives in anywhere in Atlanta doesn't make many difference
with whether you're in downtown or you're you know, on
the prefer somewhere. You if you pay Atlanta taxes, then

(03:19):
you helped pay for this grocery store. Now, this twenty
thousand square foot store is the beginning of what officials
hope will be public will be more publicly funded but
privately run supermarkets to come. Because the goal, they write
is for the store to become profitable without any government
subsidy within three years. In other words, taxpayers are not

(03:41):
paying for it. The city is already aiding the construction
of a second planned store six miles away, expected to
open next year. This is insane, absolutely insane government subsidized
grocery stores like Atlanta's Aziya fresh Market. This is a
clear case case study in the tensions. And I think

(04:03):
the practical challenges of public intervention, of government intervention in
markets that are already covered by private enterprise. So let's
go to an end depth analysis that I want to
address the fundamental market fallacies behind these kind of back crazy,
you know, back crazy experiments, the requirements for self sustainability,

(04:26):
in other words, how do you how do you keep
this thing open without subsidies? The history has similar attempts
than in this country. And quite frankly, the broader question
of government's proper role in retail food distribution. Man, we've
got government run schools, and can we see how well
those are working? Just look at test scores. And now

(04:47):
you want to think about what's the broader question of
the government's proper role in retail food distribution? What are
we all going to do?

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Now?

Speaker 1 (04:55):
Just start getting calorie you know, caloric allocations.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Food stamps.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
You'll get calorie stamps, so you can decide I mean,
you're only a looted you know, what do you need
a lot of places post? You know, the average mail
needs two thousand calories a day to survive.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
So you can get a calorie stamp.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Now they don't care how you, you know, spend your
calorie stamp. But you know, so if you want to
do it all on candy bars and potato chips and
you know, you know fully let in coca cola, well
then have at it. But if you want broccoli and
asparagus and some you know, a really nice bone in
Rabbi steak or whatever, now you.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
Can't do that.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
Why Why do you think these subsidized stores struggle Because
there's a primary fallacy in assuming that publicly publicly funded
grocery stores can somehow become profitable and self sustaining. And
that lies in a complete misunderstanding of the market forces
that drive private retailers away from servant certain neighborhoods. Have

(05:55):
you thought about why that it's been six years that
nobody been in downtown Atlanta?

Speaker 2 (06:02):
Have you thought about that.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
A market operator, you know, whether it's a major change,
a major chain, you know, like it like a safe way.
I don't really know I think probably publics is down
in Atlanta. Major chains are an entrepreneurial, independent grocery store.
They make their location decisions based on factors like, well,
what's the disposable income in that neighborhood, what's the local demand,

(06:28):
what's the risk of theft and crime, and what are
going to be my operating costs? What are the costs
of operating in this particular geographic area. So when government
officials feel so called food deserts by subsidizing grocery stores,
they don't even deal with those core economic realities. It's

(06:50):
not even part of their consideration. They just here, here's
eight million dollars. You know, cash and grants. I mean,
what's the what's the difference between cash and grant? You
give them the cash or give them a grant, and
the grant's not something you have to pay back, so
it's not alone. So you just gave them eight million
dollars a taxpayer money. They got eight million dollars in
public cash and grands. But the officials hope it will

(07:12):
become profitable within three years despite opening in a location
where private grocers have historically failed to make sustainable returns.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
So the risks.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Think about the risk of operating in that area low
spend per trip, high security costs, and uneven demand. Now
do you think that's going to disappear simply because the
taxpayers are paying for it? No, they simply get postponed.
Kansas City Grade is a great example of that. Kansas

(07:46):
City public investment of eighteen million dollars over a decade
did not make a city funder grocery source sustainable, and
it ultimately closed because of crime and a dwindling customer base.
So don't you think that if if you look at
an area you look at you look at downtown Denver,
or you look at now there actually is a grocery

(08:07):
store in downtown Denver. I think that there is. I
think there's a King Super still in Spirit Boulevard somewhere.
Haven't been there in ages and ages, but I think
there's one still there. If you consider that area still
part of downtown Denver, have you thought or take Atlanta
or downtown Chicago. I don't care, just in any downtown area,
any central business district.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Any CBD.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
If the problem is that the private companies don't want
to go there because the low spin per trip, the
high security costs, and uneven demand. Well, what's probably the
most what's the largest factor in that probably the security costs,
the crime, the theft, the pilfering, the losses. So wouldn't

(08:54):
it make more sense for the government to fulfill one
of its core function, which is policing, crime prevention, crime investigations,
just basically policing. That's one of the things that the
citizens of Atlanta or the citizens of Denver pay for,
is to have an effective police department. So without that,

(09:19):
what is it giving eight million dollars to somebody else
to open a grocery store. How does that alleviate one
of those market factors that kept the private sector out?
So what would you have to have in order for
this grocery store to become profitable or sustainable? So for
a government backed grocery store to stand on its own,

(09:40):
it's going to have to generate consistent customer volume with
adequate basket size. In other words, everyone comes in and
enough goods are sold per trip to cover the fixed
and all the variable costs that you have in operating.
Because remember, I don't care where the money comes from.
Well I'm I do care, but it doesn't make any

(10:02):
difference where the money comes from. Because you still have
the same basic problems. You're gonna have to provide security
unless you just are gonna give here, here's eight million dollars,
open your giant grocery store and then don't provide any security,
and everybody else's you know, continue to steal everything. And
so you'll once again either have the embedded cost that

(10:23):
you'll have to put in to you know, put everything behind,
you know, a plastic shield, you know, so that you
can't get into it, or you're gonna have to have
a lot of security people or more policemen you know,
out in the parking lots or patrolling inside to prevent
the crime, to prevent the theft. So you're gonna have
to manage the shrinkage, whether it's from theft or from spoilage,

(10:45):
at the same levels competitive with the private enterprise that
doesn't go away. Those facts remain the same on the ground.
And then think about this, they're pricing and supply chain
leverage is going to have to at least match or
beat all the neighboring stores, including the discount chains and
all the little mom and pop corner markets which became
you know, the little bodegas that you'll see in a

(11:07):
major city like Atlanta, New York. I'm not sure we
really really have any of bodegas in Denver. But most critically,
it's going to have to turn a profit without ongoing
municipal taxes, meaning that all of the operating expenses are
going to have to be covered by sales without subsidies
or reduced rent or now we're on a new pathway

(11:28):
of spending a lot of taxpayer money on something that's
better handled by the private sector. Now, currently this Azalea
Fresh Market relies on city funds to subsidize their operations
and the construction. Essentially right now, they're operating at a
loss that they're touting all these early sales trends, but

(11:49):
we don't know about consistency yet because without consistent larger
footprint purchases and community buy in, all that profitability that
they claim really early in the process, where it is,
you know, you don't how it's profitable because they don't
have to worry about revenue. The revenue came from the taxpayers,
so they don't care what something sells for. Government run

(12:11):
stores in Southwest Atlanta face even greater challenges. Why because
disposable income is lower and previous private grocers collapse because
of insufficient demand.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
How does eight.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Million dollars of taxpayer money create demand. Well, it's artificial
demand and it's not sustainable. And we know that in
the past. Other places have tried to do this too,
these attempts to create these municipal, nonprofit or public grocery stores.
It goes back decades. Let me give you an example.

(12:45):
Let me give you a few examples. Kansas City, Missouri,
they funded their city funded store closed after ten years
and eighteen million dollars that they invested from taxpayers because
of crime and declining shoppers.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
You see, the reality on the.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
Ground is going to remain the same unless you do
something to change the reality on the ground. But if
you change the reality on the ground by actually doing
what your government responsibility is, like preventing crime, making sure
there's enough effective policing in a particular area, then the
reality of crime will not disappear. So just like in

(13:24):
Kansas City, you're gonna spend eighteen million dollars, who knows
what Atlanta will spend, and it will still go down
the crapper Madison, Wisconsin, one of the most liberal places
in the entire country. It makes Bold Colorado look like
you know, conservative, you know Conservativeville. They have plans underway.
But also in Wisconsin, similar towns fail or struggle to

(13:45):
maintain viable public grocery outlets. So Madison, Wisconsin, you'll fail too.
And then you have some small towns. Baltimore City, Kansas
is a good example. But there have been a lot
of experiments with public or nonprofit stores that always and
in closure. It's just like socialism. Oh well, we've just

(14:05):
never done the right way. Well, you just never tried
it the way right way. Oh, Michael, you're just full
of crap, because you know, we understand that, we just
never we Atlanta's going to do it the right way. Really,
what's Atlanta doing any different than what Kansas City did
or Madison, Wisconsin, for that matter, of Balden City, Kansas.
They're not doing anything different. In almost every single case,

(14:25):
these stores lose momentum because the initial city support begins
to fade away. It rarely achieves the volume, well the
cost advantages that are necessary to compete with existing retailers.
And then I would add, I mean I don't use
mass transit, not locally anyway. I mean I will if

(14:47):
I'm in Europe. I might if I'm in DC. But
they have supposedly light ray. In fact, I don't know supposedly.
In fact, I know because I've ridden the train in Atlanta.
So they have public facilities to get people if they
want to go somewhere to do their grocery stopping. I
understand it's inconvenient, but then maybe you ought to be

(15:09):
demanding that crime in your area be reduced so that
there's an incity for a King Supers or a Safeway
or a Heris Teter or somebody else, or a public's
to come and move into your downtown area. But you
what really bugs me about this Mission creep. What's the
government's role and the issue of Mission creep. Municipal, state,

(15:32):
federal governments have a legitimate role in ensuring public health
and welfare, you know, in order to support the general
welfare of this, you know, the country. But that doesn't
mean literally welfare, and it doesn't mean that you have
to provide everything. So groceries, food obviously is a necessity,

(15:55):
so is water, and water is something that is provided
by municipal government, but so is clothing.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
You know, it was it was a little chilly.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
When I walked the dogs at about six o'clock this morning,
it was like, you know, thirty five degrees, slight breeze,
kind of cool. In fact, it was just like it
wasn't colder than a well digger's ass, but it was.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
It was fairly cold. Clothing was necessary.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
I needed a you know, I needed to jacket on
a little you know, a little hoodie and some gloves
and I walk the dogs. Well, why couldn't I go
to a government run clothing store to get those? When
government uses taxpayer money to subsidize grocery stores, that ends
up distorting the local market. It risks wasting public money
on ventures that are unlikely to succeed without continuing support.

(16:45):
So it's it it And then that feeds into the
mission creep, because once you start doing this, when do
you stop? The mission creep moves governments beyond basic service provisions,
public safety, utilities, infrastructure, and moves it into sectors where
robust private competition already exists. And the argument that private

(17:06):
change do not adequately serve poor neighborhoods that ignores alternative interventions,
targeted food assistance, zoning reform, incentivizing private expansion through maybe
temporary tax credits or actually law enforcement actually enforcing the
laws to make the neighborhood safe so that private sector

(17:27):
can move back in. You're still at a maybe a
B minus or so. If you want me to read
text messages, the number for this program, like for the
weekend program, is three three one zero three three three
one zero three. Keyword micro Michael, couple of good ones
ninety seven to ninety eight, rights Michael. I used to

(17:49):
live in the apartment's right over the King Supers at
thirteenth and Spear.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
It was awesome.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
I could walk to work at an oil and gas
company at seventeenth in Tremont. I would never do that today.
I saw the other day that they changed the apartments
there into offices for Denver Health. There's also a King
Supers around twentieth in Chestnut. Think about the City of
Denver's plans to take a lot of the empty office
space and turn it into air quotes here affordable housing.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
Can you imagine they took all the apartment complexes around
the King Supers that was on Spear and turn that
into affordable housing. How long do you think the King
Supers at Spear would remain intact, or the one around
twentieth in Chestnut. I'm not familiar with that one. I
think guber number twelve sixty four rights.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Local goober number.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
No, your goober numbers not thirty three, thirty three, thirty three,
Your goober numbers one two sixty four. You're twelve sixty four.
Get your goober number right, or seek help, get some
therapy rights and a local bodega owner.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
I got a bodega owner.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yay, tell me how the operations this is such a
this is this shows me this text message that you
understand the difference between the public sector and the private sector.
Because listen to what guber number twelve sixty four rights
as a bodega owner. Now, just tell me how these
operations handle regulatory burden. What exemptions do they get from licensing,

(19:21):
certification requirements, record keeping, employment requirements, EPA, et cetera? Do
they get to offer them pair of benefits to entry
level jobs? Think about that, a government run grocery store
in Colorado. Now you're a government employee, so guess what
you'll get onto the Public Employees' Retirement Association. That fantastic, Yes,
you see, this is the mission creep I'm talking about.

(19:43):
And here's a budega owner already complaining and thinking about,
Wait a minute, I got to comply with this, this, this, this,
and this. Who's going to make that you know, government
run grocery store comply with all the same rules and regulations.
I think it might be a great opportunity. They write
to move young minds full of mush gosh, I love
that phrase. Don't you missing to young? To move young

(20:05):
minds full of mush that can't count change with both
hands and toes into lifelong employment. Yes, they could just
go to work for the government grocery store, become in essence,
a new like like a food bureau crat. We'll just
call them food bureaucrats, and they'll get you know, a
wonderful pension program. And of course they'll be on a

(20:25):
track no matter how good or bad they do their job.
They'll be on a track just like a regular you know,
civil servant to just get you know, regular pay raises.
But what happens if the local government shuts down like
the federal government does sometime, who's going to run the
grocery store?

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Then?

Speaker 1 (20:42):
Uh, I'm not sure how they're gonna deal with the
biological ability of dud y chromosomest types to count one,
to count one more than x x without preferential treatment.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Touche.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
So again, the text line for this program is three
three one zero three keyword Micromichael. But let's go back,
because that's a good segue into the whole idea of
Mission Creep, because if you take the general welfare clause,
I don't think that there was ever any intention on
the founding fathers to think that, you know, to provide

(21:18):
for the general welfare meant that we need to provide
welfare for the general public, you know, a little play
on words there.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
I don't think that was the purpose of it.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
And now they're going to go into direct competition with
private grocers, and that really is a problematic expansion of
government domain because if if you're going to make the
argument that food is a necessity, so therefore the government
must provide it, you know, kind of like police protection.
We all agree that we want law enforcement, so we

(21:50):
agree that that is an inherently government function, law enforcement.
And why do we think it's inherently governmental because we
want that function to treat everybody equally. It's like when
you have a publicly provided utility like water and sewer.
We want everybody to treat it absolutely equally, and we

(22:14):
don't do it for a profit. We do it so
that we can maintain you know, we do it. I
don't want to use the word profit. That we charge
a rate that means that we can reinvest capital to
keep the infrastructure up to date, keep it working, and
of course allow for growth and if we need if
you're in a place where that's growing rapidly, then you

(22:35):
might charge a developer, you know, the connection fees, that
sort of thing. So if we're going to go down
this path that suddenly we think that groceries are an
inherently government function, then I would posit what isn't an
inherently government function because I, you know, it's necessary, Well,

(22:58):
it's not really technically necessary. I suppose I could be
doing the program from my home studio if I wanted to,
But I like to be in the studio. So I
get up every morning and I drive to work. Is
it the government's responsibility to provide me transportation to get
to my job, which by the way, is a private
sector job. But it's necessary for me to be there,

(23:20):
and I need food. I need shelter? What about housing?

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Is housing?

Speaker 1 (23:26):
You know you hear all of these crazy ass liberals
talk about how you know such and such as are right?
Healthcare is a right, Housing is a right. Groceries are
a right. Well, so is clothing, so is just about
everything if you apply their logic. So this mission creep
that really does bug me moves governments beyond basic services

(23:51):
like public safety, utilities, and infrastructure and moves them into
sectors where we already have robust private competition, which provides
us what that robust private competition provides us, the ability
think about this, We'll think will the government run grocery store?
For those of you listen to me for a long time,
know that I like to use grocery stores as an

(24:14):
example of how capitalism really does work. Go to your
local grocery store. Since this is kind of a new audience,
I know many of you follow me over and I
appreciate that, But do one of my experiments. If you
want to understand how capitalism works. Go into a Safeway,
a Whole foods or King Soupers, and go to the

(24:37):
bottled water aisle and just stand at the end of
it and kind of glaze all the way, you know,
your eyes just kind of look down the entire aisle
and then just slowly walk down the aisle and look
at the plethora of different options you have.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
For bottled water. Why is that possible?

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Because the private sector peats and they market and they
try to grab market share. And they do that by marketing,
by pricing, by you know, producing a product that's better
than the other product, or at least they try to
convince you that it is.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
It's still bottled water, and.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
You pay more for the bottle of water than you
do for a gallon of gas. Yeah, you bitch about
the gallon of gas, but you don't bitch about the
gallon of water that you pay for. I never understood
that logic. Now, the question then becomes what kind of
different offerings was a government run grocery store offer?

Speaker 2 (25:33):
Oh, just one, Yes, the government branded water.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
And then I would ask you, do you really want
to drink water that is I don't care whether they say,
you know, they can talk about it. Cane Neil's Rocky
Mountain spring water, you know, like Coors that hit it.
We trapped it as the snow melt came down, you know,
from the Indian Peaks Wilderness. Do you really trust them
to do that or are they just gonna get recycled

(26:01):
water from you know, the sewer plant and just you know,
put that. It's brown water. You may think it's whisky,
but it's not. It's just kind of brown water. I
don't think I necessarily want to trust the government to
provide me a product that I'm going to put in
my body, you know, kind of like oh.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, sorts CoV too.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yeah, that jab that they called a vaccine, which surely
wasn't a vaccine. But yet you're going to trust them
to put that kind of stuff into a grocery store.
You're some kind of stupid, really, some kind of stupid.
Public grocery ventures typically failed because they substitute for, rather
than supplement, private market mechanisms. They underestimate persistent operating challenges

(26:44):
they're going to have. Why do you think that there's
not a grocery store in a particular area now because
of the operating challenges? Because it doesn't make any economic sense,
but somehow the government coming in will make it make
economic sense. The repeated failure, I mean, the historical repeated
failure government run grocery stores is not incidental. It's not accidental.

(27:05):
It is fundamental. It is a result of persistent disregard
for the competitive market realities that govern food retail, sustainable profitability, demands.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
Discipline.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Now what you think about one of the demands in
the private sector, and it see if you can say that,
oh yeah, the government could do that too. Discipline, flexibility,
market calibrated operations, all of which are compromised when the
government steps in as an operator or a less or
or a financier. The proper, more effective role for public

(27:39):
policy is to incentivize, rather than replace, private innovation and expansion,
and you know, support residents access to food without distorting
the underlying market. If you got a food desert, maybe
you get an underlying problem that you really ought to address,
which more than likely than not is crime. You know.
The closer we get to Thanksgiving, there they all get.

(28:01):
But that's fine with me because I don't mind. I
don't mind a little bit of crazy you myself. Do
you remember the summer of mostly peaceful protests back in
twenty twenty well, a new court petition filed by former
Minneapolis police officer Derek Shaven I remember him. His defense
team accuses the Minnesota State Prosecutors of misconduct during his

(28:23):
trial for the death of George Floyd. They resulted in
those mostly peaceful protests in which we saw this like
CNN and MSNBC and the others reporting about how this
is really peaceful as the you know, the local hardware
store and the local auto shop, you know, burned like crazy.

Speaker 2 (28:41):
Behind them, Yes, that summer.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
But what's interesting is this particular filing has gained a
lot of attention because it argues that the Minnesota Police
Department Inspectors Katie Blackwell's testimony, which was that the restraint
technique used by Darren Shaven was not standard practice, has
actually been contradicted by over fifty current and former police
officers of the Minnesota Police Department. According to sworn declarations

(29:08):
by the officers, blackwell statements do not align with the
Minneapolis Police departments procedures either then or now. And then
they claim that the pomonologist, doctor Martin Tobin, who testified
that he never performed an autopsy, He never examined George
Floyd's body, so how could he testify as to He

(29:31):
kept saying that the pressure on Floyd was akin to
being on the left side as an advice and contrast
that with the Hinnepin County Chief medical examiner, who did
perform the autopsy, concluded that Floyd's death was because of
cardiac arrest, not asphyxiation. Now that discrepancy has further fueled

(29:53):
calls for a new trial. Now the prosecutors have forty
five days file response. It was noted back in March
that the public competition advocating for Chauven to receive a
pardon from President Trump had more than five hundred thousand signatures.
I don't know that Trump would ever do this, but
I think this petition for a new trial is probably

(30:14):
one of the best petitions for a new trial that
I've seen. So you have a medical poemonologist who testified that, oh, yeah,
it was because of the asphyxiation, Yet he never examined
the body, he didn't perform the autopsy, and the person
who actually performed the autopsy, the Henipen County Medical Examiner,
said he died not from cardiac died from cardiac arrest,

(30:37):
not from asphyxiation. So then how could Darren Chauvin actually
be responsible for the death of George Floyd for which
we paid a really heavy societal price, The truth eventually
makes its way out