Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
John, you sound like a leftist.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Everyone's going to.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Die, that's usually what they say. But I guess in
your instance, it's probably true. People will die if they
don't have access to adequate electricity and to energy, they
will die.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Ban you, I never said everybody's going to die. You know,
very healthy young people will probably survive during the energy crisis,
but it's true people will die. So we've got an
energy crisis coming to Colorado thanks to our energy policy.
And just to make your happiness even happier, we have
(00:41):
an economic crisis which is going to come. I don't know.
Sometime you've heard a lot of people say that's why
I buy gold. You hear all the advertisements for gold
on radio because gold is safe. I think that something
even better than gold. It's bitcoin. And it took me
(01:06):
years to wrap my head around bitcoin. By the way,
I'm John Caldera in for the Vacationing and ailing Michael Brown.
And there's a guy that I've been reading his work
for for a long time. David Byrne runs a substack
called the Bitcoin Role. We've gotten to become friends. He's
a great guy and one of the better communicators on bitcoin.
(01:27):
We've done this routine a couple of times, David, thanks
for joining us.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Hey Joy, how you doing to say?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I'm doing terrific? All right, let's do the preliminary stuff
people hear about bitcoin. It is at an roughly all
time high. One bitcoin is worth almost one hundred and
twenty grand right now, when fifteen years ago it was
worth a penny. What is it?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, bitcoin is the first and that's truly open source,
decentralized permission to this network that allows you to send
economic value across the internet for very low feed, with
confirmation that your value has been transferred to that party
(02:20):
you see within about ten minutes.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
It would be a fair thing to say that bitcoin
is basically digital gold, in that there's only so much
gold to go around, and the beauty of bitcoin is
there's only so much bitcoin to go around. Unlike the dollar,
and unlike pictures of kittens on the internet, you cannot
copy bitcoin. It cannot you cannot make more of it
(02:46):
out of thin air. So like gold, it is a
fixed supply and therein is the beauty of it.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, it's a fair shorthand of course, bitcoiners can point
out many ways in which bitcoin point is vastly superior
to gold. But that is a good way to look
at it, you know, for the person trying to get
into it and understand it.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
And a lot of particularly talk show listeners, get why
gold is important. They get that the American dollar is
now a faith based dollar, and that inflation is not
a natural thing. It's actually an unnatural thing, and it
happens because governments print up dollars out of nothing. When
(03:30):
your currency is locked to a commodity, or locked is
something that doesn't grow, well, then it stays, it stays solid.
We used to have solid money in the United States,
and then we got off the gold standard, and now
we don't. And along comes bitcoin, which in my mind
(03:50):
is kind of like putting us back on the gold standard.
We used to be able to trade dollars, and those
dollars rep resented a limited supply of something. Bitcoin does
the same, and therefore, while everything else gets inflated, the
(04:11):
value of bitcoin just keeps growing, kind of like your gold.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, And what really makes it even better is that
no one can stop you from using bitcoin, whereas historically,
even in the United States, people were banned from owning gold.
It was impossible to transact in gold without people knowing
about it, because gold is physical and you have to
bring it with you. I can go anywhere in the
(04:36):
world with my bitcoin and no one can stop me
from doing it. So there's a lot of advantages bitcoin
over gold, but it's essential properties in terms of it's
monetary policy, the low new supply rate, the ability to
just create bitcoin, as you said, out of thin air.
(04:58):
Those are very similar to gold. Indeed, and that's part
of what Satoshi Nakamoto was thinking about when he created it.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Okay, so let's just do the basics for people who
who are mostly scared of this thing called bitcoin, because
I'm amazed how do invest in bitcoin? I want to
make it illegal. I think it's the tool of drug
users that is very, very unsafe. So let's go through
some of these. One, Yeah, only criminals want bitcoin.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well true, oddly enough, you know in the early days
when you know bitcoin is being used at silk market,
silk Road, excuse me, at the black market site where
people could buy a lot of drugs defected criminals or
drug users. I wanted to use Bitcoin proved one of
its use cases, which is that it's censorship resistance and permissionless.
(05:56):
No one can stop you from sending that value to
buy whatever you want. Of course, you know, in a
world in which we have legal tender laws where the
dollar is the only currency that is legal to use
the United States, someone using bitcoin will be using it
for illegal things more likely. But it's bitcoins matured over
(06:18):
the years, people have seen its value and then they
start to use it for more things than just that.
So it's unsurprising to me that in the early days
of bitcoin that was a true statement. But you know,
as bitcoin is matured over the years and it's embraced
by people who see its value beyond that it's use cases,
they're more diverse. And I think anybody going to steak
(06:40):
and shake and buying bitcoin with buying steak and shake
with bitcoin today, which is accepted out their locations, isn't
buying drugs or buying hamburgers. So we're gonna see more
and more of that as time goes on, and the
days of bitcoin bedrug us will be longer.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Drug dealers, yeah, drug dealers used bitcoin, but they also
use dollars, and it doesn't mean that dollars aren't necessarily bad,
you know. And now we see that we have these
bitcoin ETFs that major financial institutions are looking at bitcoin.
(07:17):
We've got companies like micro Strategy that have realized, wait
a second, Bitcoin grows in value, will continue to grow
in value. So instead of putting money into a bank account,
I'm just going to buy more bitcoin and therefore our
savings is going to continue growing. It's been it's been
wonderful for them. All right, let's do this one real fast.
(07:40):
Bitcoin isn't safe. You looked at all these scam artists
who have ripped people off, and it's all because a bitcoin.
Bitcoin is the hour sure.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
And you know, you may notice that bitcoiners have, if
you get to know them, have a lot of bittrial,
a lot of hatred for alt coins, theoryum xrpiece and
lonaka don all the rest. But that's because so many
coins came along promoted by scammers when they saw that
bitcoin had value and that people wanted it. And you
(08:15):
have to remember that the financial industry has always had
a lot of scammers, and also there's a dentist industry.
You know that this part of who we are as people,
and a lot of them looked at the opportunities to
scam and fraud within the cryptocurrency space. After the success
of bitcoin and jumped in and said, here's my new
(08:35):
shiny coin and you're going to love it because it
has X, Y and Z, and no one really understood
these things, and they would jump in and then get
rugg cooled. There was also, you know, a lot of
problems with exchanges in the early days. The Mount Cox
getting hacked was a big one back in twenty fourteen,
eleven years in the rear view mirror. But people still
(08:56):
remember that. Of course you had FTX, the great scammer,
ambigmin Freed, who didn't even have the bitcoins he said
he had. But bitcoiners over the years have been really
staunched and advising people that if you want to be
safe in bitcoin, you're number one. If you're gonna use exchanges,
these reputable bitcoin only exchanges, to take self custody er bitcoin,
(09:19):
be your own bank, protect your own private key, in
which case if you do that right, no one, and
I mean no one can ever take your bitcoin ever.
And then don't babble in anything else other than bitcoin.
Bitcoin only. There is no second best, the only cryptocurrency
asset worth owning. The rest are all going to zero
(09:39):
against bitcoin eventually, So.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Just for people who don't know. I don't know nothing
about no bitcoin. What you're talking about is, if you
want to buy a bitcoin, you go to something called
in exchange. It's like coin base or river or swan
or some of these sites, and you can buy the
bitcoin can they put it in your account on their exchange.
(10:05):
But the problem is if their exchange gets hacked or
if they steal it. It's like putting money into a
shady bank. You'd never know when somebody might come in
and steal the money at gunpoint or otherwise. But with bitcoin,
much like gold, you can either own gold on your
balance sheet by buying gold stocks, or you can actually
(10:27):
buy a coin or a bar of gold and you
keep it with you. You can do the same thing
with bitcoin, and that's called self custody. And there's a
million videos on how to do that and what to do.
But I want to get into real quickly why guys
like you and guys like me we go crazy over
bitcoin because we understand the basics of monetary policy, that
(10:52):
bitcoin wouldn't be necessary if we never lost the gold standard,
that if our dollar were limited, then we wouldn't have
the problems we're having with the dollar, and all fiat currencies,
which are all dangerous and always always end up getting
inflated and causing economic ruin. Would you be as excited
(11:16):
about bitcoin if we never went off a gold standard.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Well, it's funny, John in that tragic, funny kind of way.
One of the great bitcoin economists, safety in the Most,
points out that governments can't kill bitcoin, but if they really,
really really wanted to get rid of it, what they
could do is go back on the gold standards, because
that would reduce some of the primary use case of bitcoin,
(11:43):
which is to protect yourself from currency debasement. Of course,
governments are never going to do that because their addicts
and addiction only gets worse. So no, I wouldn't be
as excited about bitcoin. But I was super excited because
ultimately bitcoin does have a better stock to flow ratio
than gold, and it will always have a better stock
(12:05):
of plow ratio than gold, meaning there will always be
less new supply of bitcoin coming to the market compared
to its existing supply than gold has. So it should
always gain a value against gold even in a gold
standard scenario, but it wouldn't be as dramatic a gain
(12:25):
and dramatic a need as you have under the current
global fiat regime.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Let me let me ask you this, how old are you?
You're about fifty years old, correct.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Now turn fifty one on the back half of the century.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Now, all right, so I've got a decade on you.
And you look at gold. You look at bitcoin as
the ultimate savings tool that if you have an extra
dollar to spend and you want to save it for
your retirement, David Burns, you're gonna put it in bit coin.
Explain to me why you think it is the ultimate
(13:04):
way to save money.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Well, it's the ultimate way to save money because it's
the hardest money ever invented. What do you mean by
hardness of money? And what we mean is that, like
I was saying, it is the hardest money to increase
the supply of relative to the existing stock that's out
there now, it's hard to increase the supply of goal,
(13:29):
but we managed to do it at about one and
a half to two percent per year on average. Right
now under the current code of bitcoin, the current epic
that we're in, the bitcoin supply increases at about zero
point eight percent per year, about less than one percent,
(13:49):
and every four years for the asansie I can see
bitcoin will be reduced in half in terms of its
supply ford so it's new supply just so people will
get this new supply reduced to about point four percent
in twenty twenty eight, and then point two and twenty
(14:09):
twenty two. I try there two excuse me, and so
on and so forth. So the the hardness of bitcoin
makes it a better asset. That's one point. The other
is actually, let.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Me grab that because I want to illustrate that real fast.
So when the price of gold goes up, uh, people
and minors go, well, now we have more incentive to
go mine for more gold because it's it's worthwhile. What
wasn't profitable last year is now profitable because gold's over
you know, three grand an ounce, we're going to go
(14:41):
out and find more gold. But with bitcoin, even though
the price has gone up to one hundred and twenty
grand a coin, it's not like you can invest more
money and get more bitcoin mined. The amount of bitcoin
that is created every year, every day, every ten minutes
is a finite and shrinking amounts. So it is going
(15:02):
to become more and more rare to have a bitcoin.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Well, and that's one of the problems, especially with silver,
you look at the history of the Hunt Brothers and
how they tried to corner the market, and of course
they were heavily levered on margin and stuff like that,
and that really really hurt them. But if you look
at the decade from when the Hunt Brothers started their
silver play until silver essentially completely created out by a
(15:27):
decade later, the supply of silver that miners produced doubled
over that decade. That can never happen bitcoin, It's programmatically impossible.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Do you feel that coin is I mean, as far
as knowing that you have something that's going to stay
of value people buy gold. Do you feel that bitcoin
is safer than owning gold?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I do if you take the time to understand it.
And of course there's going to be a hurdle there.
It's a new technology. Just like when you first started
using the Internet, that wasn't safer than using the post
office to send email. People had to learn not to
click on spam links, right, But the value of the
Internet proved itself over time and people were aalized that hey,
(16:20):
I need to at least take four seconds of my
life and understand I don't click on spam links. And
then it's just as safe. It's using the postal mail, right,
and that's essentially what you have with bitcoin. The hurdles
to understanding how to secure your bitcoin aren't very large
at all, but they're hurdles, and humans are resistant to
(16:42):
any hurdle whatsoever that inconveniences them. They have to see
the value proposition first, and people are starting to understand that.
But the vast majority of people still would rather just
go about their lives without bitcoin and suffer the economic consequences,
which allows you, if you take the time to study it,
quite the advantage.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
So let me wrap it into this. By the way,
can you hang around through a break if you wouldn't mind,
I'd love to keep this going. David Burns. David Burns
does a substack called the Bitcoin Roll. Just go ahead
and google the Bitcoin Roll get on his list. The
best way to learn about bitcoin is on his substack,
(17:27):
and it is wonderful. It's one of the must reads
of my life. R O L L r O L
L Bitcoin roll back after this.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Hey, John, I have the ilso second dead about diesel
exhaust youte.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I was always into the impression.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
It was just to make the appearance better so that
trucks and equipment weren't so sooty. But I grade roads
for a county here in Colorado every day, and I
go through three jugs two and a half gallon jugs
of death every week, plus the cardboard. Plus there's forty
(18:03):
seven of us.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
I'm learning a lot about the environmental damage of being
environmentally sound. Go figure that. Hey, I'm John Caldera in
for the ailing mister Brown, who is down. But give
me a call three h three seven to one three
eight two five five or we've just had a break.
But I've been talking to buddy Mine David Burns, who
runs a substack, and a substack is a great publishers service, writers,
(18:30):
commentators put their stuff on there and check out his.
It's called the Bitcoin Roll spelled rol like it's rolling.
And we've been talking about what bitcoin is, and it's
hard to wrap your mind around if if you don't,
because there's no there there. You can't hold a bitcoin,
but you also can't hold a dollar. Most of your
(18:54):
money is digital right now. I mean only two percent
of our money is actually printed in in pieces of
paper or coins. So I've always wondered why people have this,
this fear of bitcoin because it doesn't actually exist compared
to your dollar, which ninety eight percent of those don't
(19:17):
actually exist. David, let me ask you this. If you
had let's say, you know, four thousand dollars, and you
want the best return for those four thousand dollars in
a decade. Would you keep your four thousand dollars in cash?
Would you buy a ounce of gold. Let's just assume
(19:40):
that's the price of an ounce of gold. Would you
put it in you know, the S and P five hundred,
or would you buy four thousand dollars worth of bitcoin
today wanting the best benefit in ten years?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
All right, well, let's walk through this, right, So you
buy it in dollars, You put it in dollaries, Hold dollars, right.
The money supply gets debated at about seven and a
half to eight percent per year. Right, Your Your CPI
says we lose value about three point nine percent per year.
A lot of people think it's two percent, but that's
actually just the target. Right, So you're gonna lose, oh
(20:18):
about half of its value over ten years. Right, rule
is seventy two. So to lose four to seven percent
per year, we should lose about half of our value
in ten years. So that's obviously no gold can see
the coupling of the gold standard is going up about
eight percent per year, okay, so not that a little
bit better than your currency debasement rate the S and
(20:41):
P five hundred about nine or ten percent per year
if you go, if you want to just invest only
in the mag seven right, your Facebook, Amazon, whatever the
rest of them are, that's that's about twenty percent per year.
That's really good, right, It's really good, assuming those digital
tech monopolies are maintained. Right. Coin's about fifty percent per
(21:01):
year right now, or even though the fifty percent and going,
even though the volatility of bitcoin should gently decline over
the years, and the return should decline a bit as
the volatility does, as that ocean gets bigger and bigger,
that lake grows. So see at least twenty percent returns
well into the late twenty thirty Okay, so that's fifteen
(21:22):
years from now. So I don't I don't think that
there's really a choice. If you want to hold it
for ten years, your best bet is bitcoin. I don't
think there's any doubt about that. It is.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
It is amazing how secure bitcoin is, given that it's
only fifteen years old. And that that bothers me too,
is that you know, the S and P five hundred
has been around forever, the dollar has been around forever,
gold has been around since the dawn of man. You
(21:53):
know these things I know, and I am comfortable with.
I am uncomfortable with bitcoin because well I don't know
a lot about it, and it it's scary because I
can't hold it. My real estate I can hold, I
can live in a house. I know it's going to
be around, but it's it's scary. So just for those
(22:17):
people who haven't learned about bitcoin, address the fear of bitcoin,
because my guess is you haven't been into bitcoin but
for a few years as well.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
That's right, you know, active from the gold bug background,
very similar to yours, probably reading a lot of the
same Austrian economics writers over the years.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Right, You and I are both fans of Robert Wenzeld,
late great economists and others.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, yes, changed my life.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
And in Rothbart and all these other guys who who
understood the Austrian school of monetary policy, right right.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And so what really helps is if you know someone
who can set you up with a wallet and send
you a little bit of bitcoin, and you send it back,
and what you'll find is that you can, if that
person has some knowledge, you can go on the internet,
pull up a website like mempool, that space, that's em
pool dot space, and then you can explore the blockchain
(23:13):
there and you can actually see the bitcoins move from
their wallet to your wallet, verified and on the ledger,
forever confirmed and now part of history and can never
be altered. And then when you see that, that changes
things because now you realize it's not just something I
(23:33):
can't hold, it's something that's verifiable and immutable, and that
gives it a tremendous advantage over something like goal. You
cannot verify the supply of gold we have. We can guess,
we can kind of get close maybe to how much
gold is out there who owns it, But you can't
verify it. That's why we don't know how much is
(23:55):
an bordox. We have a video of one vault on
one room or something like that from forty years ago.
We have no idea how much gold was in four ducks.
We have no idea how much gold is available in
terms of total supply. But you can verify every aspect
of bitcoin. So when you start to explore it in
that sense, you start to look at it and say, hey,
(24:16):
I can actually audit this. I can audit my own holds.
I can verify as someone who says they sent me
bitcoin actually did, and it's on the blockchain forever. Then
that fear goes goes away.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I can't afford to buy a bitcoin, dude. I might
have been able to do that, you know, ten years
ago when it was one hundred bucks a coin. But
it's one hundred and twenty a coin. There's no way
I can buy a coin. We can't afford it.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, bitcoin is infinitely divisible in theory and in practice
right now with the current software code's divisible to eight
decimal places. We call that smallest unit of bitcoin as
a toshi in honor of the Socioco motor, the inventor of bitcoin.
But you can buy any fractional amount of bitcoin. The
(25:10):
total supply of bitcoin will never change. It's still going
to be twenty one million bitcoins. But it's infinitely divisible forever.
So when I buy gold, this was been divided further record.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yeah, when I buy gold, I can buy an ounce
of gold. That's you know, three four hundred dollars right now,
I can buy a half ounce, I can buy a
quarter ounce. I can buy a tenth of an ounce.
But that is kind of the smallest divisible ounce of
gold I can buy. That's like the it's really hard
to buy small pieces of gold, and the smaller the
(25:42):
piece of gold, the higher the transaction costs. You know,
it's more expensive to buy in bulk. That's why it's
cheaper buy a you know, three pounds of gold than
it is, you know, three hundred ounces. Bitcoin isn't like that.
It costs the same no matter how much you buy,
and you can divide it so you can get a
(26:03):
little tiny bit. And everyone should get a little tiny
bit to play with until they feel comfortable of what
it is.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah, I mean the reason why, you know, when after
Western nations like Germany went off the silver standard, silver's
only role was to fulfill that small change a use
case where the gold's divisibility wasn't the best. Bitcoin is
instantly divisible, so it's another way in which superior to gold.
You don't need another money for small change transactions.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Why are you convinced that out of the thousands of
cryptocurrencies out there. Bitcoin is going to be the granddaddy
and remain the granddaddy in years to come. I mean,
why there's so many other alternatives and some of them
go go hot and they go cold. But why do
you think bitcoin will be the gold standard of crypto.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Well, I think it's hard to invent a new money
that actually works, and it works better than what's in existence.
And I think that history has proven that that new
moneies that come along that are better, that provide people
the incentives they need are rare. They either come about
(27:20):
that way, which is a very rare case every you know,
I don't know how thousands of years, or they come
about by force and coercion to accept the lesson money.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
So it's much harder.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
To invent something that's even better and provides a centive
for people that's the money. It's very easy to create
fraudulent coins that are thin air. We've seen that. I
think there's one hundred thousand or so fraudulent coins out
there that you could co invest your money and if
you want to lose it all. But to create a
money that's actually valuable to people, that solves the real
(27:55):
challenges that money presents, especially in an economy of eight
people and growing, that's a really hard thing to do.
I suspect that we won't see it in our lifetime,
but I don't have a crystal ball. I suspect that
going our thousand years before another money it's better than
bitcoin is invented. But what I do know is that
(28:16):
if something did come along, just lightning strikes again, okay, wow,
I'd rather be selling bitcoin to buy that than selling dollars.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
That's the that's the important part. In fact, how to
put this, and you've you've done a post on this
that's so so crucial. Dollars deflating value over time. It's
just it's just how how fiat currency acts. That one
hundred dollars today is worth, you know, or it's going
(28:46):
to be worth ninety five dollars tomorrow. And I look
at young people who are trying to buy a house,
at least in the Denver area, and home prices just
keep going crazy. That you've got to, you know, at
the price of dollars, home prices keep going up, but
in the in the price of bitcoin, home prices are plummeting.
(29:08):
Homes have never been less expensive in bitcoin they're actually
deflating the price of a home, that is when bitcoin.
Let's just go ten years ago. How how much bitcoin
did you need to get an average house?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Off on my head, I don't remember, but I do
know that in Q four twenty nineteen, because I did
just do a post on this. That's six years ago,
it was forty big coins to buy the median home.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Forty bitcoins. You needed forty of these coins. So if
you had if you had ten coins back then, you
you wouldn't be able to get buy a fourth of
a house. What about today?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
It is less than four. The median home prices around
four hundred and thirty thousand dollars and the price of
a bitcoin is about one eighteen right now, so less.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Than four all right, So jump ahead four years from now,
what do you think that same price of a median
home is going to be priced in bitcoin?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Well, it would certainly be less. It would probably be
a couple of bitcoin.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
It's incredible, it's just incredible.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Ten years from now, fifteen years now, you're talking probably
about a sixth of a bitcoin a points start.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I'm going to say goodbye to ye. I got to
run to a break, David, thank you so much. Everybody
go to bitcoin roll ro LLL if you want to
learn about bitcoin. It's a great place to start. David,
thank you and keep it right here. You're on six
thirty KL. Hey John.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
I don't know if you remember, and I'm not sure
it's just correct or not, but when I was a kid,
we were deforesting the country, so we had to go
from paper bags.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
They made us do the plastic bags.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
But I can remember they were devising a corn based
grocery bag, and that's what I always thought that they
were made of, because you leave it out in the
sun for a month and it just falls apart.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
You're absolutely right. The plastic bag when it came out
was the environmental choice. Let's remember that it was the
environmental choice because well, we wanted to save the forests
and we wanted to save the trees. This is why
science is never really settled. You don't know what the
(31:31):
science is going to be. Our eggs bad or eggs good.
It's chocolate goods chocolate bad. We have grants. I don't know.
The science keeps changing against an argument, and those who
virtue signal and use the power of government to force
you to live the way they want you to live.
They work on this assumption that they are right now
(31:53):
and they will forever be right, That they know what's right. Remember,
the al are scared, and the Way scared and all
the rest. The only problem is they keep getting it wrong.
If they just leave us alone, we'll figure it out
on our own. Better chance, we're gonna get it right,
(32:16):
and they will. Hey, I had a bunch of questions
about the one big, beautiful bill. So I've got someone
coming on next hour to answer these questions from the
Tax Foundation. I'm John Calderic. Keep it here, you're on
kow
John, you sound like a leftist.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Everyone's going to.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Die, that's usually what they say. But I guess in
your instance, it's probably true. People will die if they
don't have access to adequate electricity and to energy, they
will die.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Ban you, I never said everybody's going to die. You know,
very healthy young people will probably survive during the energy crisis,
but it's true people will die. So we've got an
energy crisis coming to Colorado thanks to our energy policy.
And just to make your happiness even happier, we have
(00:41):
an economic crisis which is going to come. I don't know.
Sometime you've heard a lot of people say that's why
I buy gold. You hear all the advertisements for gold
on radio because gold is safe. I think that something
even better than gold. It's bitcoin. And it took me
(01:06):
years to wrap my head around bitcoin. By the way,
I'm John Caldera in for the Vacationing and ailing Michael Brown.
And there's a guy that I've been reading his work
for for a long time. David Byrne runs a substack
called the Bitcoin Role. We've gotten to become friends. He's
a great guy and one of the better communicators on bitcoin.
(01:27):
We've done this routine a couple of times, David, thanks
for joining us.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Hey Joy, how you doing to say?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I'm doing terrific? All right, let's do the preliminary stuff
people hear about bitcoin. It is at an roughly all
time high. One bitcoin is worth almost one hundred and
twenty grand right now, when fifteen years ago it was
worth a penny. What is it?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, bitcoin is the first and that's truly open source,
decentralized permission to this network that allows you to send
economic value across the internet for very low feed, with
confirmation that your value has been transferred to that party
(02:20):
you see within about ten minutes.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
It would be a fair thing to say that bitcoin
is basically digital gold, in that there's only so much
gold to go around, and the beauty of bitcoin is
there's only so much bitcoin to go around. Unlike the dollar,
and unlike pictures of kittens on the internet, you cannot
copy bitcoin. It cannot you cannot make more of it
(02:46):
out of thin air. So like gold, it is a
fixed supply and therein is the beauty of it.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, it's a fair shorthand of course, bitcoiners can point
out many ways in which bitcoin point is vastly superior
to gold. But that is a good way to look
at it, you know, for the person trying to get
into it and understand it.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
And a lot of particularly talk show listeners, get why
gold is important. They get that the American dollar is
now a faith based dollar, and that inflation is not
a natural thing. It's actually an unnatural thing, and it
happens because governments print up dollars out of nothing. When
(03:30):
your currency is locked to a commodity, or locked is
something that doesn't grow, well, then it stays, it stays solid.
We used to have solid money in the United States,
and then we got off the gold standard, and now
we don't. And along comes bitcoin, which in my mind
(03:50):
is kind of like putting us back on the gold standard.
We used to be able to trade dollars, and those
dollars rep resented a limited supply of something. Bitcoin does
the same, and therefore, while everything else gets inflated, the
(04:11):
value of bitcoin just keeps growing, kind of like your gold.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, And what really makes it even better is that
no one can stop you from using bitcoin, whereas historically,
even in the United States, people were banned from owning gold.
It was impossible to transact in gold without people knowing
about it, because gold is physical and you have to
bring it with you. I can go anywhere in the
(04:36):
world with my bitcoin and no one can stop me
from doing it. So there's a lot of advantages bitcoin
over gold, but it's essential properties in terms of it's
monetary policy, the low new supply rate, the ability to
just create bitcoin, as you said, out of thin air.
(04:58):
Those are very similar to gold. Indeed, and that's part
of what Satoshi Nakamoto was thinking about when he created it.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Okay, so let's just do the basics for people who
who are mostly scared of this thing called bitcoin, because
I'm amazed how do invest in bitcoin? I want to
make it illegal. I think it's the tool of drug
users that is very, very unsafe. So let's go through
some of these. One, Yeah, only criminals want bitcoin.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well true, oddly enough, you know in the early days
when you know bitcoin is being used at silk market,
silk Road, excuse me, at the black market site where
people could buy a lot of drugs defected criminals or
drug users. I wanted to use Bitcoin proved one of
its use cases, which is that it's censorship resistance and permissionless.
(05:56):
No one can stop you from sending that value to
buy whatever you want. Of course, you know, in a
world in which we have legal tender laws where the
dollar is the only currency that is legal to use
the United States, someone using bitcoin will be using it
for illegal things more likely. But it's bitcoins matured over
(06:18):
the years, people have seen its value and then they
start to use it for more things than just that.
So it's unsurprising to me that in the early days
of bitcoin that was a true statement. But you know,
as bitcoin is matured over the years and it's embraced
by people who see its value beyond that it's use cases,
they're more diverse. And I think anybody going to steak
(06:40):
and shake and buying bitcoin with buying steak and shake
with bitcoin today, which is accepted out their locations, isn't
buying drugs or buying hamburgers. So we're gonna see more
and more of that as time goes on, and the
days of bitcoin bedrug us will be longer.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Drug dealers, yeah, drug dealers used bitcoin, but they also
use dollars, and it doesn't mean that dollars aren't necessarily bad,
you know. And now we see that we have these
bitcoin ETFs that major financial institutions are looking at bitcoin.
(07:17):
We've got companies like micro Strategy that have realized, wait
a second, Bitcoin grows in value, will continue to grow
in value. So instead of putting money into a bank account,
I'm just going to buy more bitcoin and therefore our
savings is going to continue growing. It's been it's been
wonderful for them. All right, let's do this one real fast.
(07:40):
Bitcoin isn't safe. You looked at all these scam artists
who have ripped people off, and it's all because a bitcoin.
Bitcoin is the hour sure.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
And you know, you may notice that bitcoiners have, if
you get to know them, have a lot of bittrial,
a lot of hatred for alt coins, theoryum xrpiece and
lonaka don all the rest. But that's because so many
coins came along promoted by scammers when they saw that
bitcoin had value and that people wanted it. And you
(08:15):
have to remember that the financial industry has always had
a lot of scammers, and also there's a dentist industry.
You know that this part of who we are as people,
and a lot of them looked at the opportunities to
scam and fraud within the cryptocurrency space. After the success
of bitcoin and jumped in and said, here's my new
(08:35):
shiny coin and you're going to love it because it
has X, Y and Z, and no one really understood
these things, and they would jump in and then get
rugg cooled. There was also, you know, a lot of
problems with exchanges in the early days. The Mount Cox
getting hacked was a big one back in twenty fourteen,
eleven years in the rear view mirror. But people still
(08:56):
remember that. Of course you had FTX, the great scammer,
ambigmin Freed, who didn't even have the bitcoins he said
he had. But bitcoiners over the years have been really
staunched and advising people that if you want to be
safe in bitcoin, you're number one. If you're gonna use exchanges,
these reputable bitcoin only exchanges, to take self custody er bitcoin,
(09:19):
be your own bank, protect your own private key, in
which case if you do that right, no one, and
I mean no one can ever take your bitcoin ever.
And then don't babble in anything else other than bitcoin.
Bitcoin only. There is no second best, the only cryptocurrency
asset worth owning. The rest are all going to zero
(09:39):
against bitcoin eventually, So.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Just for people who don't know. I don't know nothing
about no bitcoin. What you're talking about is, if you
want to buy a bitcoin, you go to something called
in exchange. It's like coin base or river or swan
or some of these sites, and you can buy the
bitcoin can they put it in your account on their exchange.
(10:05):
But the problem is if their exchange gets hacked or
if they steal it. It's like putting money into a
shady bank. You'd never know when somebody might come in
and steal the money at gunpoint or otherwise. But with bitcoin,
much like gold, you can either own gold on your
balance sheet by buying gold stocks, or you can actually
(10:27):
buy a coin or a bar of gold and you
keep it with you. You can do the same thing
with bitcoin, and that's called self custody. And there's a
million videos on how to do that and what to do.
But I want to get into real quickly why guys
like you and guys like me we go crazy over
bitcoin because we understand the basics of monetary policy, that
(10:52):
bitcoin wouldn't be necessary if we never lost the gold standard,
that if our dollar were limited, then we wouldn't have
the problems we're having with the dollar, and all fiat currencies,
which are all dangerous and always always end up getting
inflated and causing economic ruin. Would you be as excited
(11:16):
about bitcoin if we never went off a gold standard.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Well, it's funny, John in that tragic, funny kind of way.
One of the great bitcoin economists, safety in the Most,
points out that governments can't kill bitcoin, but if they really,
really really wanted to get rid of it, what they
could do is go back on the gold standards, because
that would reduce some of the primary use case of bitcoin,
(11:43):
which is to protect yourself from currency debasement. Of course,
governments are never going to do that because their addicts
and addiction only gets worse. So no, I wouldn't be
as excited about bitcoin. But I was super excited because
ultimately bitcoin does have a better stock to flow ratio
than gold, and it will always have a better stock
(12:05):
of plow ratio than gold, meaning there will always be
less new supply of bitcoin coming to the market compared
to its existing supply than gold has. So it should
always gain a value against gold even in a gold
standard scenario, but it wouldn't be as dramatic a gain
(12:25):
and dramatic a need as you have under the current
global fiat regime.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Let me let me ask you this, how old are you?
You're about fifty years old, correct.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Now turn fifty one on the back half of the century.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Now, all right, so I've got a decade on you.
And you look at gold. You look at bitcoin as
the ultimate savings tool that if you have an extra
dollar to spend and you want to save it for
your retirement, David Burns, you're gonna put it in bit coin.
Explain to me why you think it is the ultimate
(13:04):
way to save money.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Well, it's the ultimate way to save money because it's
the hardest money ever invented. What do you mean by
hardness of money? And what we mean is that, like
I was saying, it is the hardest money to increase
the supply of relative to the existing stock that's out
there now, it's hard to increase the supply of goal,
(13:29):
but we managed to do it at about one and
a half to two percent per year on average. Right
now under the current code of bitcoin, the current epic
that we're in, the bitcoin supply increases at about zero
point eight percent per year, about less than one percent,
(13:49):
and every four years for the asansie I can see
bitcoin will be reduced in half in terms of its
supply ford so it's new supply just so people will
get this new supply reduced to about point four percent
in twenty twenty eight, and then point two and twenty
(14:09):
twenty two. I try there two excuse me, and so
on and so forth. So the the hardness of bitcoin
makes it a better asset. That's one point. The other
is actually, let.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Me grab that because I want to illustrate that real fast.
So when the price of gold goes up, uh, people
and minors go, well, now we have more incentive to
go mine for more gold because it's it's worthwhile. What
wasn't profitable last year is now profitable because gold's over
you know, three grand an ounce, we're going to go
(14:41):
out and find more gold. But with bitcoin, even though
the price has gone up to one hundred and twenty
grand a coin, it's not like you can invest more
money and get more bitcoin mined. The amount of bitcoin
that is created every year, every day, every ten minutes
is a finite and shrinking amounts. So it is going
(15:02):
to become more and more rare to have a bitcoin.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Well, and that's one of the problems, especially with silver,
you look at the history of the Hunt Brothers and
how they tried to corner the market, and of course
they were heavily levered on margin and stuff like that,
and that really really hurt them. But if you look
at the decade from when the Hunt Brothers started their
silver play until silver essentially completely created out by a
(15:27):
decade later, the supply of silver that miners produced doubled
over that decade. That can never happen bitcoin, It's programmatically impossible.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Do you feel that coin is I mean, as far
as knowing that you have something that's going to stay
of value people buy gold. Do you feel that bitcoin
is safer than owning gold?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I do if you take the time to understand it.
And of course there's going to be a hurdle there.
It's a new technology. Just like when you first started
using the Internet, that wasn't safer than using the post
office to send email. People had to learn not to
click on spam links, right, But the value of the
Internet proved itself over time and people were aalized that hey,
(16:20):
I need to at least take four seconds of my
life and understand I don't click on spam links. And
then it's just as safe. It's using the postal mail, right,
and that's essentially what you have with bitcoin. The hurdles
to understanding how to secure your bitcoin aren't very large
at all, but they're hurdles, and humans are resistant to
(16:42):
any hurdle whatsoever that inconveniences them. They have to see
the value proposition first, and people are starting to understand that.
But the vast majority of people still would rather just
go about their lives without bitcoin and suffer the economic consequences,
which allows you, if you take the time to study it,
quite the advantage.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
So let me wrap it into this. By the way,
can you hang around through a break if you wouldn't mind,
I'd love to keep this going. David Burns. David Burns
does a substack called the Bitcoin Roll. Just go ahead
and google the Bitcoin Roll get on his list. The
best way to learn about bitcoin is on his substack,
(17:27):
and it is wonderful. It's one of the must reads
of my life. R O L L r O L
L Bitcoin roll back after this.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Hey, John, I have the ilso second dead about diesel
exhaust youte.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I was always into the impression.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
It was just to make the appearance better so that
trucks and equipment weren't so sooty. But I grade roads
for a county here in Colorado every day, and I
go through three jugs two and a half gallon jugs
of death every week, plus the cardboard. Plus there's forty
(18:03):
seven of us.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
I'm learning a lot about the environmental damage of being
environmentally sound. Go figure that. Hey, I'm John Caldera in
for the ailing mister Brown, who is down. But give
me a call three h three seven to one three
eight two five five or we've just had a break.
But I've been talking to buddy Mine David Burns, who
runs a substack, and a substack is a great publishers service, writers,
(18:30):
commentators put their stuff on there and check out his.
It's called the Bitcoin Roll spelled rol like it's rolling.
And we've been talking about what bitcoin is, and it's
hard to wrap your mind around if if you don't,
because there's no there there. You can't hold a bitcoin,
but you also can't hold a dollar. Most of your
(18:54):
money is digital right now. I mean only two percent
of our money is actually printed in in pieces of
paper or coins. So I've always wondered why people have this,
this fear of bitcoin because it doesn't actually exist compared
to your dollar, which ninety eight percent of those don't
(19:17):
actually exist. David, let me ask you this. If you
had let's say, you know, four thousand dollars, and you
want the best return for those four thousand dollars in
a decade. Would you keep your four thousand dollars in cash?
Would you buy a ounce of gold. Let's just assume
(19:40):
that's the price of an ounce of gold. Would you
put it in you know, the S and P five hundred,
or would you buy four thousand dollars worth of bitcoin
today wanting the best benefit in ten years?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
All right, well, let's walk through this, right, So you
buy it in dollars, You put it in dollaries, Hold dollars, right.
The money supply gets debated at about seven and a
half to eight percent per year. Right, Your Your CPI
says we lose value about three point nine percent per year.
A lot of people think it's two percent, but that's
actually just the target. Right, So you're gonna lose, oh
(20:18):
about half of its value over ten years. Right, rule
is seventy two. So to lose four to seven percent
per year, we should lose about half of our value
in ten years. So that's obviously no gold can see
the coupling of the gold standard is going up about
eight percent per year, okay, so not that a little
bit better than your currency debasement rate the S and
(20:41):
P five hundred about nine or ten percent per year
if you go, if you want to just invest only
in the mag seven right, your Facebook, Amazon, whatever the
rest of them are, that's that's about twenty percent per year.
That's really good, right, It's really good, assuming those digital
tech monopolies are maintained. Right. Coin's about fifty percent per
(21:01):
year right now, or even though the fifty percent and going,
even though the volatility of bitcoin should gently decline over
the years, and the return should decline a bit as
the volatility does, as that ocean gets bigger and bigger,
that lake grows. So see at least twenty percent returns
well into the late twenty thirty Okay, so that's fifteen
(21:22):
years from now. So I don't I don't think that
there's really a choice. If you want to hold it
for ten years, your best bet is bitcoin. I don't
think there's any doubt about that. It is.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
It is amazing how secure bitcoin is, given that it's
only fifteen years old. And that that bothers me too,
is that you know, the S and P five hundred
has been around forever, the dollar has been around forever,
gold has been around since the dawn of man. You
(21:53):
know these things I know, and I am comfortable with.
I am uncomfortable with bitcoin because well I don't know
a lot about it, and it it's scary because I
can't hold it. My real estate I can hold, I
can live in a house. I know it's going to
be around, but it's it's scary. So just for those
(22:17):
people who haven't learned about bitcoin, address the fear of bitcoin,
because my guess is you haven't been into bitcoin but
for a few years as well.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
That's right, you know, active from the gold bug background,
very similar to yours, probably reading a lot of the
same Austrian economics writers over the years.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Right, You and I are both fans of Robert Wenzeld,
late great economists and others.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, yes, changed my life.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
And in Rothbart and all these other guys who who
understood the Austrian school of monetary policy, right right.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And so what really helps is if you know someone
who can set you up with a wallet and send
you a little bit of bitcoin, and you send it back,
and what you'll find is that you can, if that
person has some knowledge, you can go on the internet,
pull up a website like mempool, that space, that's em
pool dot space, and then you can explore the blockchain
(23:13):
there and you can actually see the bitcoins move from
their wallet to your wallet, verified and on the ledger,
forever confirmed and now part of history and can never
be altered. And then when you see that, that changes
things because now you realize it's not just something I
(23:33):
can't hold, it's something that's verifiable and immutable, and that
gives it a tremendous advantage over something like goal. You
cannot verify the supply of gold we have. We can guess,
we can kind of get close maybe to how much
gold is out there who owns it, But you can't
verify it. That's why we don't know how much is
(23:55):
an bordox. We have a video of one vault on
one room or something like that from forty years ago.
We have no idea how much gold was in four ducks.
We have no idea how much gold is available in
terms of total supply. But you can verify every aspect
of bitcoin. So when you start to explore it in
that sense, you start to look at it and say, hey,
(24:16):
I can actually audit this. I can audit my own holds.
I can verify as someone who says they sent me
bitcoin actually did, and it's on the blockchain forever. Then
that fear goes goes away.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I can't afford to buy a bitcoin, dude. I might
have been able to do that, you know, ten years
ago when it was one hundred bucks a coin. But
it's one hundred and twenty a coin. There's no way
I can buy a coin. We can't afford it.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, bitcoin is infinitely divisible in theory and in practice
right now with the current software code's divisible to eight
decimal places. We call that smallest unit of bitcoin as
a toshi in honor of the Socioco motor, the inventor of bitcoin.
But you can buy any fractional amount of bitcoin. The
(25:10):
total supply of bitcoin will never change. It's still going
to be twenty one million bitcoins. But it's infinitely divisible forever.
So when I buy gold, this was been divided further record.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yeah, when I buy gold, I can buy an ounce
of gold. That's you know, three four hundred dollars right now,
I can buy a half ounce, I can buy a
quarter ounce. I can buy a tenth of an ounce.
But that is kind of the smallest divisible ounce of
gold I can buy. That's like the it's really hard
to buy small pieces of gold, and the smaller the
(25:42):
piece of gold, the higher the transaction costs. You know,
it's more expensive to buy in bulk. That's why it's
cheaper buy a you know, three pounds of gold than
it is, you know, three hundred ounces. Bitcoin isn't like that.
It costs the same no matter how much you buy,
and you can divide it so you can get a
(26:03):
little tiny bit. And everyone should get a little tiny
bit to play with until they feel comfortable of what
it is.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah, I mean the reason why, you know, when after
Western nations like Germany went off the silver standard, silver's
only role was to fulfill that small change a use
case where the gold's divisibility wasn't the best. Bitcoin is
instantly divisible, so it's another way in which superior to gold.
You don't need another money for small change transactions.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Why are you convinced that out of the thousands of
cryptocurrencies out there. Bitcoin is going to be the granddaddy
and remain the granddaddy in years to come. I mean,
why there's so many other alternatives and some of them
go go hot and they go cold. But why do
you think bitcoin will be the gold standard of crypto.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Well, I think it's hard to invent a new money
that actually works, and it works better than what's in existence.
And I think that history has proven that that new
moneies that come along that are better, that provide people
the incentives they need are rare. They either come about
(27:20):
that way, which is a very rare case every you know,
I don't know how thousands of years, or they come
about by force and coercion to accept the lesson money.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
So it's much harder.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
To invent something that's even better and provides a centive
for people that's the money. It's very easy to create
fraudulent coins that are thin air. We've seen that. I
think there's one hundred thousand or so fraudulent coins out
there that you could co invest your money and if
you want to lose it all. But to create a
money that's actually valuable to people, that solves the real
(27:55):
challenges that money presents, especially in an economy of eight
people and growing, that's a really hard thing to do.
I suspect that we won't see it in our lifetime,
but I don't have a crystal ball. I suspect that
going our thousand years before another money it's better than
bitcoin is invented. But what I do know is that
(28:16):
if something did come along, just lightning strikes again, okay, wow,
I'd rather be selling bitcoin to buy that than selling dollars.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
That's the that's the important part. In fact, how to
put this, and you've you've done a post on this
that's so so crucial. Dollars deflating value over time. It's
just it's just how how fiat currency acts. That one
hundred dollars today is worth, you know, or it's going
(28:46):
to be worth ninety five dollars tomorrow. And I look
at young people who are trying to buy a house,
at least in the Denver area, and home prices just
keep going crazy. That you've got to, you know, at
the price of dollars, home prices keep going up, but
in the in the price of bitcoin, home prices are plummeting.
(29:08):
Homes have never been less expensive in bitcoin they're actually
deflating the price of a home, that is when bitcoin.
Let's just go ten years ago. How how much bitcoin
did you need to get an average house?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Off on my head, I don't remember, but I do
know that in Q four twenty nineteen, because I did
just do a post on this. That's six years ago,
it was forty big coins to buy the median home.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Forty bitcoins. You needed forty of these coins. So if
you had if you had ten coins back then, you
you wouldn't be able to get buy a fourth of
a house. What about today?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
It is less than four. The median home prices around
four hundred and thirty thousand dollars and the price of
a bitcoin is about one eighteen right now, so less.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Than four all right, So jump ahead four years from now,
what do you think that same price of a median
home is going to be priced in bitcoin?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Well, it would certainly be less. It would probably be
a couple of bitcoin.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
It's incredible, it's just incredible.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Ten years from now, fifteen years now, you're talking probably
about a sixth of a bitcoin a points start.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I'm going to say goodbye to ye. I got to
run to a break, David, thank you so much. Everybody
go to bitcoin roll ro LLL if you want to
learn about bitcoin. It's a great place to start. David,
thank you and keep it right here. You're on six
thirty KL. Hey John.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
I don't know if you remember, and I'm not sure
it's just correct or not, but when I was a kid,
we were deforesting the country, so we had to go
from paper bags.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
They made us do the plastic bags.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
But I can remember they were devising a corn based
grocery bag, and that's what I always thought that they
were made of, because you leave it out in the
sun for a month and it just falls apart.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
You're absolutely right. The plastic bag when it came out
was the environmental choice. Let's remember that it was the
environmental choice because well, we wanted to save the forests
and we wanted to save the trees. This is why
science is never really settled. You don't know what the
(31:31):
science is going to be. Our eggs bad or eggs good.
It's chocolate goods chocolate bad. We have grants. I don't know.
The science keeps changing against an argument, and those who
virtue signal and use the power of government to force
you to live the way they want you to live.
They work on this assumption that they are right now
(31:53):
and they will forever be right, That they know what's right. Remember,
the al are scared, and the Way scared and all
the rest. The only problem is they keep getting it wrong.
If they just leave us alone, we'll figure it out
on our own. Better chance, we're gonna get it right,
(32:16):
and they will. Hey, I had a bunch of questions
about the one big, beautiful bill. So I've got someone
coming on next hour to answer these questions from the
Tax Foundation. I'm John Calderic. Keep it here, you're on
kow
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