D-Von Dudley

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This week on The Undisputed Podcast w/Bobby Fish we're joined by WWE Hall of Famer D-Von Dudley. D-Von shares his thought on some of the pro wrestling facilities that are in operation right now. He talks to Bobby about ring philosophy and the "why" things happen during a match. He also gets into some of the best advise that he got when he was just getting started in the business and tells us who gave him that sound advise.
 
It's a great pro wrestling conversation that you don't want to miss. 
 
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Episode Transcript

(00:02):
The professionals the show and I mean, folks, where's the Lines Podcast with
Bobby Fish And we're back on avery special episode of the Understood podcast with

(00:24):
a tag team specialism, right,Bobby Fish, our tag team partner Scott
and one of the most arguably decoratedtag team chambs of all time, probably
on the Mount Rushmore tag teams.I would agree, you would agree,
we would Yeah, who would yoube agreeing with? Frank? You myself?

(00:47):
Myself? Okay, But we gotBobby, we got Devon Dudley,
We got the Master of the ThreeD himself as well, one half of
the Masters, Pearl of the ThreeD. Yes, Stevon Dudley. How
are you, my friend, dMaster? I'm good, brother. Yeahs.

(01:15):
I'm nervous about what you told mebefore we got on the air,
but I'll keep that hush hush.Yeah that's all right. That's to that.
I just say, I'm afraid todo that. Yeah. Yeah,
you don't want to give anybody ideas? Yeah, yes, sir? How
we doing? Devon doing all right? Man? Not bad. I came

(01:40):
down to the rest of the schoolthe team. I thought I was gonna
be a half a day and woundup, my trainer went, Both of
my trainers went home. One hadthe other one was stuck. His flight
got cancered coming home from Houston.So I was like, I guess I
will be all night. Yes,well, somebody's got to man the ship,

(02:01):
right when you when you own thebusiness, you're the one that if
somebody's taking it on the chin,it's gonna be you. And I guess
I guess so what a person?Right? Yeah, exactly, No,
no punching out when you own thebusiness. Done what whoever? My friend?

(02:23):
Yes, sir, yes, sir? Well, I mean I don't
know, Frank, is that asegue? I mean maybe we jump around
a little bit. But like Divon, you've had a hand in training.
I mean, could you even puta number on the number of you know,

(02:43):
wrestlers all time currently whatever whatever specificationsyou want to put on it,
but in training a lot of people, Yeah, I mean I would say,
well over fifteen people that have madeit to either and macdown Raw to
Japan all Japan ae w. Imean the list goes on and on,

(03:07):
you know, love but myself andwent to Connecticut, opened up the school
over there. We basically we justyou know, graduating people left and right
and make getting uh, getting contractsand everything everywhere and still doing it,
still doing it. Yeah, well, obviously you know what the fuck you're

(03:31):
doing, you know, And Imean that that goes a long way because
in today's day and age, andand we'll get into this, you know,
because we've had divon and I havehad long chats about this sort of
thing. But there's a lot ofpardon the French, once again, my

(03:55):
my mouth is pretty colorful tonight.But there's a lot of buckery out there
these days. There is. Andthat's one of the reasons why bubb and
I originally opened our first pool intwo thousand and seven, because we saw
that when we left WWE in twothousand and five, we went on the

(04:15):
indie circuit to try to get readyfor Japan, and we noticed how a
lot of these kids were being schooled, the wrong way they were taught,
and there was a lot of holesand what they were learning. So me
and Bubba decided to open up theschool in two thousand and seven and we
off running from there. Yeah.I love it because, to be honest,

(04:41):
it's it's got a message and Frankand Dennis you can speak to this
as well, because you know thisgentleman. But Matt Halleck a friend of
ours, and Matt has been theperson most pivotal in making me see that.
Like, you know, there's areal benefit to uh serving others and

(05:02):
to passing on the knowledge and fillingthe void of you know, what's missing
and what you're describing. As faras the motivation that you and Bubba had,
it was to correct something that yousaw was wrong with this thing,

(05:25):
in this case pro wrestling that youloved absolutely. And you know Bubba has
a great mind for this business.You know, you hear him on his
show, his show Busted Open Radio. He breaks things on how it should
be. And a lot of timesyou can't deny how good he is,
you know, even when I'm Iwould like to deny how good he is,

(05:46):
but I can't because really, youknow, he's stuff. And you
know, we've both learned from alot of great people. Uh. You
know, of course Paul Haman.You know, we spent six is with
him in the e c W.Uh rode up and down the highways with
him, had launched Dinner Breakfast,you name it, we did it,
and we picked his brain. Youknow, one Vince vinceic Man even when

(06:14):
we first came in, you know, he pretty much gave us the learning
tree, and we learned a lotfrom him, and of course one of
the all time greats, Pat Patterson. Uh any better than Pat Patterson.
I mean, the man was agenius, God rest his soul when it
came to putting finishes together, hstorylines, you name it. I mean,

(06:36):
that was Vince's right hand man atthe time. You know, it's
very happy to learn from him,and just all three people who taught me
and Bubba's so much. And thenlearning from guys like Ravishing, Rick Rude
Bam Bam Bigelow, Tommy Rogers,Tommy Rich all those names that came through
the c W doores. When wewere in e c W we were considered

(06:58):
young boys. We learned a lotfrom you know, Terry Funk, Jane
Douglas. I mean, those guysreally a lot, and now it's time
for us to pass the knowledge down. Yeah. Well, I mean that's
the tradition of the business, right, That's that's what it was all these
years ago, like you know,the timeframe that I grew up watching.

(07:19):
That's what it's rumoreders at least saidto be is that it was a business
tradition to get passed down generation togeneration. And I think where that,
you know, at times, haskind of fallen off to the side and

(07:44):
it's been less traditional. I thinkyou're seeing some of the some of the
detractions that have been a result ofthat in the current you know, you
speak of the indies, I mean, especially you just I don't want to
be negative, I really really don't, so I'm gonna try not to be

(08:11):
this whole conversation. But there's there'sjust some people that, you know,
they've seen how the donuts are made, and they were never supposed to see
that. Yeah, you know,and I look at it this way.
You know a lot of guys whonever made it in the business, couldn't
draw a dime or what have you. They're opening up wrestling schools and pretty

(08:35):
much trying to teach the youth.My question to people that look for a
repeable record wrestling school is find areplical wrestling school, someone that's been somewhere,
someone that told you how to getto where they want to be.
If they've never been, oh,they're going to be able to show you.
That's That's one of the things Ididn't understand. It's like, if

(08:56):
I want to become a brain surgeon, I'm going to go to the best
school who there is that's gonna teachme how to be a brain surgeon?
So why would I go to anybody? Less? If this person who opened
up a university never made it,but yet he's taking millions of dollars to
teach, So you know, whywould I want to go to his school?
Go to somebody you know myself,Bubba A Booker, t land Storm.

(09:20):
I mean, the list goes onand on of guys all the time.
The question the school that came from? Did he ever go to?
Did he Was he ever on MondayNight Raw? No? Okay? Was
he ever on Backdown? No?Was he ever in the next No?
Was he ever at WrestleMania? Not? Really? Divine? All right?

(09:43):
Did he ever steal the show twoyears in a row at WrestleMania? Really?
I'm sorry? What has he done? Well? Never really been anywhere?
Okay? So if he's never beenin any of those places that I
want to go to, that cool. It doesn't make any He's not gonna
teach you how to act in thering. As long as and just as

(10:07):
much. He's not gonna teach youto act outside of the ring with your
career if you don't know how toact outside. Guys you know unheard that
have done stupid stuff outside of beingin the ring and lost their career.
That's being in the ring. AndI don't think a lot of people understand
that. The respect level that goesto this business is huge, you know,

(10:31):
learn You know, you see aveteran like you walk in the room
and Rick Flair walks in the room, and all the chairs to take it,
everybody should be out of their seatgoing hey, Rick, would you
like to sit down? Hey?Here's you know, that man helped pay
the way, whether you liked himor not, he was there before what
you was, and he helped putasses in the seats. Why wouldn't you

(10:52):
respect the man that has done thatand helped change them from the from the
sixties and fifties to the seventies andeighties, nineties and even during the attitude
of a Why wouldn't you get upa man much in this business? And
that's what I don't understand. There'sa lot of young guys now that just
don't respect yesterday. And that's wrong. I totally agree, and I think

(11:16):
the root cause of this is whatwe talked about before, was that there's
tradition that gets passed down and whensome of that gets left out of these
people's teachings. The respect is oneof those things that I think at times
has been left out. You know, you can teach somebody, you know,

(11:39):
how to put on a headlock,correctly or incorrectly. It's still you
know, the person might still beteaching you how to run a universal or
whatever, but that does not meanthat they are capable of teaching you the
etiquette that is expected in a litelocker room like you just spoke of,

(12:01):
like Rick walks in. Yeah,if there's no chair, goddamn right,
you get up and give the manage. Give the man your chair, absolutely
as much as he's done for thebusiness, and you know, just teaching
psychology, you know, on thebusiness, you know, if that person
has you know. That was theone thing Bubb and I proud ourselves on.

(12:22):
We didn't do a whole lot offlipping and flying. We really we
really did any We really didn't doanything, you know, But what we
did was we told a good story. That's exactly what we did. We
told stories in our matches. Wemade you invest in us, we made
you kill us. We made youeither want to hate the Dudley Boys or
love the Dudley Boys, whether anyw fu Devon you know, or Bubba

(12:45):
was bad no offense Bubba. Youknow. We made those people do that.
We controlled them, We had theknowledge to be able that. But
again we learned from those who camebefore us, who taught us, who
was there willing to give that informationand to be a teacher of the game

(13:07):
right, and it all goes Imean, for me, it just all
comes back to tradition, and that'swhat I think this business was built on.
And the loss of it is truly, you know, it's a travesty.
It is such a shame that someof that is losing its foothold.

(13:33):
Unfortunately, there was something though thatthat you you just said, Dimon,
that got me to thinking a bitabout the conversation you and I were having.
It was at your school, youknow, the one I'm referencing,

(13:54):
uh, And there was something justnow that made me think of that.
I think it was about what youand Bubba had learned and the way,
oh Man, concussions are real peoplethe Uh, well, anyway, I

(14:18):
know that you know what I'm talkingabout. And I didn't really share this
with the boys, but there waslike, I mean, I would have
asked Devon to be on the showregardless. But we had a conversation one
day at his school after we didsome work together, and that conversation it
just the light bulb went off midwaythrough that conversation and I was like,

(14:43):
this could help so much of theyoung talent coming up right now to be
a fly on the wall of thisconversation right now, And it was predominantly
because of Devon's perspective. So,dev you're aware of the one that I'm
talking about. Do you mind kindof going down that route here? Yeah?

(15:07):
Sure. So I kind of saidsomething in terms of, you know,
like indie workers, where there's areason why you have a heel and
a babyface. There's certain times whenyou see indie shows that people don't react.
Number one, they don't know whoyou are, So you have to
you have to show them your characterand invest the time into it. If

(15:30):
you're gonna be a babyface, bea babyface. If you're gonna be a
heel, be a heel. Andone of the things I told Bobby was
I said, listen, there wasone time we were in West Virginia and
I cut this promo about Little Bobby'sbrother, a Little Bobby's mom and dad
are early brother and sisters and allof this, but asked. I was
coming down the Otway, I'm lookingat the audience and there's like maybe out

(15:54):
of twenty thousand I could see,and I'm sure there's probably more, but
what I could see it was likegonna be fifteen Africans because that was it.
I was like, they're one ofthe only brothers they were looking at.
I was wrestling Shelton Benjamin and there'sone, uh, there's one heavy
said a black lady comes to therail. Yes, so you ain't shit,
and blah blah blah. And Iwas like, yeah, I may

(16:15):
not be shit, but he's butyou're a fat bitch. And I just
and I just I kept walking.Now, as I'm walking to the ring,
she's trying to get to me,to get my I'm not sitting there
having a conversation with her. Whywould I do that? I said what
I said, and the people heardthat and they popped huge. I walk

(16:38):
away. Don't give her the benefitof the doubt and letting her argue back
and forth with me. She wantsto be a part of the show,
whether she believed in what she saidor not. She wants to be a
part of the show. But I'mnot going to let her so trying to
get me, trying to get myattention, and I'm just completely annoying her.
So I'm in the ring with SheltonBenjamin. I pick him up and

(17:00):
I slam him. As I goup to the top rope, I look
up and it's getting silent. Ilook up. I go, yeah,
yeah, who's the man. Igo up as I'm about to go off,
I see the girl in the frontrow, and I go, oh,
by the way, you're still afat bitch, the head bud.
You know, everybody's laughing at her. Now she's serious. Now she's trying

(17:25):
to come over the railing. ButI'm not engaging in a conversation with her.
I said that little bit when sheleast expected, and then that was
it. And then I went toyou know, the head but off the
top, I missed it. Humblowsto come back, you know. Boom
boom boom. We go through everythingone, two, three, he beats
me. I leave him laying inthe middle of the ring. After the

(17:45):
match. As I'm walking towards theramp, she gets out of her seat.
She's following me up, following meup, trying to get my attention,
and I'm not paying any attention toit. And that makes it even
more matter because I'm not paying attentionto it because everybody else laughed at what
I said about her, And eventhough she might have had a good comeback,
I never registered in my head tolet her think that I heard her.

(18:07):
And once I did that, thatpiste her off even more so.
As I started to get back tothe curtain, she's like almost in the
hourway, security stopped her and she'slike, f you, devon, f
you. I can't stand you.I hope you die. And I go,
yeah, I hope you stop eating. I go to the curtain tower.

(18:29):
Everything is good. I get myrental car, and you know,
the fans wait for her outside andas they wait for us outside, you
know, just to say hi,I'll see a glimpse of us. I
see her in the middle of thecrowd. Now remind you, she's in
the middle of the crowd, soshe can't really run that fast because you
know there's people around her. Soas I'm driving off, I look,
I see I rolled the windows doopon head. I was like, Craig

(18:52):
is calling your fat bitch. Andthey lose it and I and put I
speed off from on our feet offthere's a red light. As they're a
red light, she sees that.She starts charging towards the car. Fuck
you, ask how I can't standI'll kill you and blah blah blah.
And as she does that, thelight turns green. She gets to the

(19:15):
car in the back of the truckand I just peel off. I just
doing this and you can see this. That's but you do. You don't
sit there and engage in a conversationwith him. Nobody's paying attention to her.
Let them pay attention and you getthem and then get off. A

(19:36):
lot of indie workers make the mistakeof sitting there having a conversation with them.
You don't have a company. You'remaking them part of the show.
Don't have dictated. You dictated,You wrote the script, you wrote the
story, you follow through it.Don't ever give them a chance to do
that. That's that's what we didin ECW. Yeah, and that that's

(19:59):
why I I think it's so beneficialfor guys to hear it from you or
Bubba or something like just it's alost art. It's subtle. It's not
don't abandon the interaction whatsoever, like, oh, I'm not going to give
them that satisfaction that it needs tobe tempered in a way. You you

(20:27):
you can interact and let them bepart of the show, but leave them,
not leave them unsatisfied. I rememberthere was something you had said that
day and it was to that effect, and it was like, that's exactly

(20:48):
it. Like you you you know, you bring them to the party,
but then you don't let them inthe door. Like there's just you know,
it's kind that a little bit ofa I hate to say it,
a little bit of a mind fuckingLike at the end of the day,
this is all psychology. And Ithink times if you've gotten into an argument

(21:11):
with somebody and you know, yourpride gotten away because you wanted to say
something to them the point across,but somebody either stopped you, or they
walked away, or you never gota chance to. Now you're steaming inside
your heart this scenario. Never letthem get the last word and you get
the last round. And I haveso many indie workers sitting there arguing back

(21:33):
and forth for what lit everybody thesecrets out? You know they are not
gonna hit them. They all knowthat you're not, because that's a lawsuit
waiting to happen, especially nowadays,stands a lot more smarter than you know.
So sit there and go, I'llkick your hairs on. How about
you take your energy towards your opponentin the ring and get you that way.

(21:56):
Not with the people on the outside, because they already know, they
already know, they already figured thewrestling out. This is not the nineteen
seventies and fifties and sixties anymore,right, that you're gonna jump the rail
and the whoop they ask, believeit's not believeable. I have to get
locked up right right bout of mine. So I pready know that. Plus

(22:19):
they're waiting to they're waiting to sueyou. They don't know you're not tens
of thouars, Andy Targut. Theyjust know that you're a wrestler and you're
wanting to be a star in mind. You're probably are a star in their
mind, but they have try tomake newsworthy, and that's exactly what they
do. Yeah, yeah, Ithink what it comes down to is just

(22:41):
the people that have applied the trade, they understand the nuance that is in
the the human psychology element that's toit. But like we had said at
the start of this conversation, thosethat were never supposed to to see the
way that doughnuts were made, butthey did. When they try to apply

(23:06):
to the trade, they don't havethe on the job experience that has given
them privy to this knowledge. Therefore, it's like it's Halloween. It's like
it turns into cosplay. They're notactually pro wrestlers. They're playing pro wrestlers,
so they're applying the psychology that theythink applies absolutely absolutely. I mean

(23:33):
again, once you figure out theauto wrestling and how it works, that's
become a star. That's when youbecome a true professional wrestler, once you
figure out in Disgui's limit. Fromthat point on, think of all the
people that have Dusty Rose, RickFlair, All Cogan, the Rock,
you know, Stonecoas, Steve Boston. Think about how they were before they

(23:56):
became who they were, and thenfigure out they became the stars that they
are that we know of them tobe today. You know, so important
to watch documentaries like they have onA and E and all that, to
see what these guys went through andhow they learn the business. It's the
best thing. I think A andE is doing the best thing to show

(24:18):
in this stuff, not only tothe fans, but to us to see
what we actually do to put ourbodies and our lives on the line the
second that we make. Listen,you may not like the guy that's in
the ring, who gets beat upall the time, you know, and
all of that, but guess what, he's leaving his family. He's on
the road, he's traveling, doingthe hustle. He's doing everything you're not

(24:42):
doing. But yet you could sayhe sucks or he's not good enough.
He's something just to get on thatlevel. You know. Somebody told me.
One body told me one time.They said, you know what,
think about how good you have tobe to play in the NBA, to
just be on the bench. Yeah, they played time, but think of
how how good you have to be. Now, look at that guy,

(25:02):
how good he has to be.Now, think about Michael Jordan, how
good he is? Think? Yeah, right on, they so you know,
when you're saying this guy sucks,this guy sucks, but here's the
deal, he'll whoop your ass rightright by saying he sucks, but he'll

(25:22):
whoop your ass. Yeah, Itotally agree. I think another if you
look at, like the example ofthe guys that you just brought up,
the Dusty Rhodes and the guys thatreally got it, but they had to

(25:42):
come up that certain way to learnthat psychology, I think so if we
were to put that in modern dayterms, you look at it like the
rise of we'll say very modern daybut would be Cody Rhodes. But also

(26:03):
I look at Roman Reigns and thebacklash that he got for those years where
he was kind of getting that goaway heat, and dare I say,
like, that's some of the stuffthat was probably some of the most important
elements into creating the performer that youjust saw headline mania and do you know

(26:29):
the bloodline for what feels like it'sbeen you know, two years and and
become this like epically rounded out performerthat like has reached the level that a
you know, few ever do mh. I mean, you know,
people got to understand that, youknow, we got to start somewhere.

(26:52):
And I remember when I used towatch wrestling when you were in your twenty
you know, nowadays it's a youngman's business. You know, you're in
your twenties, you're great, longJeff. But when you were in the
seventies and the eighties, when youwere in your twenties, you were a
guy that basically, you know,got beat up all. Yeah, you
never want to. But if youwere in your thirties, you were lucky

(27:12):
if you won ten matches that year. You know, by the time you
got in your mid thirties to yourforties, now you became a mid carter.
By the time you have forties intoyour fifties, now you're a main
event because that's how long it tookto learn the business. Yeah, you
know, some days when you're inyour forties and fifties, now you're considered

(27:33):
the George Foreman of the of theprofessional wrestling world, and you know,
and it's like, you know,it's like what do you do with that?
You know, how do you tellthem no? Because that means they
don't understand how this business used towork, which is what business made as
much money as it did back then. Listen, I'm saying when I'm making
money now, because we are,of course, but think about it,

(27:56):
the Internet and all of that,all the tools that we have to get
the word out and this and thatto make the money that we make today.
Back then, they didn't have that. Yeah. No, was it
the VHS tapes and that was it. We didn't have the We didn't have
They didn't have nothing like that likewe do today today. We have channels,

(28:18):
all of this, are streaming allof that. How we make money
today to be able to produce largerchecks for restless today. Back then they
didn't have that, you know,So you have to keep in mind when
we think about stuff like that.Yeah, I mean, there's not a
word that's come out of your mouthin the last ten minutes that isn't Dare

(28:41):
I say gospel testify? I seehow I did that? See you're looking
at a pro here, gentlemen,you're looking at a pro. You celebate
bit you keep it up. We'regoing to talk about the stuff we talked

(29:02):
about before we came out there.That No, no, it'll definitely get
one of us canceled. So devon, then, I my question for you,
if you had to give if youhad to boil it down to one

(29:22):
piece of advice that you would giveto a young guy considering getting into wrestling,
like that, let's say that hassome options but has always loved wrestling,
maybe he played college sports, andyou know what would the what would

(29:47):
the number one piece of advice tobe be to that person? Like let's
say I'll just give you a fourinstance just so we have some kind of
point of reference here, but likea on test forward, like if he
was, you know, hadn't fullycommitted yet and he he said like,
yeah, I think I want todo this, what would that? Do

(30:10):
you have one piece of advice thatyou think is like the tip of the
spear, Find a repeable school witha repable person that will teach you the
right way, and stay in therefor the long horn. Don't try to
walk before you can crawl. Don'ttry to before you can do any of
that. And you have to learnhow to crawl first, then walk,

(30:33):
and if it's possible fly, youknow, learn all that aspects first before
you even try to attempt to leavea wrestling school and not know what you're
doing. Take your time, becausethis business is nothing but time. Because
if you don't. You'll have setbacksafter setbacks, So you need to learn
first before you even eventually start tomove on to somewhere else, because you

(30:55):
could only be here for a cupof coffee, and that's all it'll be
for you if you don't. Okay, okay, Sage advice Divon what would
you say? You know, obviouslyyou got into wrestling because you loved it
and you wanted to do it.You wanted to be a performer. Who
would you credit as your strongest influencewhen it comes to coaching, teaching,

(31:22):
training, you know, just workingwith younger talent at this point in your
career in today's business. Well evenyou know if like even if it goes
all the way back to your owntraining, but what what would what do
you think? Who do you thinkyou most are like? Or who do

(31:45):
you think you've when it comes toteaching somebody how to do what we do?
What who you may have borrowed themost information from? Or is it
a is it a combination of people? It's a combination of people. I'm
gonna say number one my trainer,Johnny Rodds, Johnny Rods, ravishing Rick

(32:08):
Rudd when he used to you know, hold class before the doors opened and
e c w Uh he was veryinstrumental. Uh, Shane Douglas. You
know again, Pat Patterson, youknow all those names that I mentioned before,
Paul Hayman stand Paul a bunch ofguys that were misfits and that nobody

(32:29):
else wanted and made us in stars. You know, we call him doctor
Frankenstein because nobody was giving us achance. Not w w no, he's
not w w F. No onewas giving us a chance. But Paul
Hayman saw us, saw the talentand made us. So I give a
lot of credit to him, youknow, a lot. He made us

(32:51):
who we are today. He tooka he made us stars. But Vince
McMahon made a superstars. Yeah.Yeah, well that's all. That's awesome.
And I think Paul, you know, the the brief encounters I've had
with him along the way have beenjust you know, mind blowing more times

(33:12):
than not. So I totally wouldexpect that coming from you. The the
Rick Rude, that comment that thatkeeps coming back up with you. What
would I guess the fan in mebecause I I watched Rude growing up,

(33:35):
you know, I was an ultimateWarrior fan. And then who could forget
you know that stuff and even beforethat with Macho man and rude. What
was some of Rick's advice? Whatwas some of the stuff that that he
passed on? Selling? Selling washuge with Rick convincing the people that you

(34:00):
were hurt, convincing the people howto sell you know, certain things which
is are like how to sell aleg in a match when it's been injured,
hell selling arm, how to sella nick things like that, your
charisma, your character. He spenthours in helping us and he got through
to a lot of people, gotthrough to me and blabblah a lot.
Yeah. What what was the didhe have any point of reference? I

(34:24):
know, like Ricky Steamboat used totalk about, he would watch to get
some of his selling. He wouldwatch boxers get knocked out and different you
know things like that he would borrowfrom. Did Rick have anything like that?
And I guess it's kind of atwo part question. Rick worked most

(34:47):
of his career as a heel.Yeah. He he never really talked about
where he got it from. Hewould just explain how to do it.
Rick never he was the type thatI remember. He was never a type
of person, not that he didn'tgive people credit. But you always felt
like he just learned from people thathe never gave the names of those He

(35:09):
just just he just taught you.Okay, So you would think like a
common place ring psychology the babyface,you know, the classic like Ricky Morton
selling his ass off to get Robertthat hot tag. With rick being a

(35:32):
heel predominantly, how did he seeselling when it came to a heel and
the the importance of the heel,because I'm assuming he himself was was,
you know, put a ton ofimportance on his selling as well. Absolutely,

(35:52):
when you got the proper heat onthe baby face when it was you
need to bump your ass off andyou need to just go. You need
to sell whatever that babyface was givingyou. You told it and you sold
it to the best of your ability. You make sure that those people knew
that that baby face was putting hisfoot in your ass. Yeah. Yeah,

(36:13):
And I think that that's one ofthe things today that I'll say is
missing. I'm gonna say just saythis, Kelles don't know how to sell
today. That's the problem They're thingup there. Oh I can't do that.
It makes me look bad. Look, let me explain something to you.
You're in here, we go whipthem across the road. Do you

(36:34):
honestly think that if I was ina ballroom fight and I threw somebody against
a wall that made him bounce back, you think he's gonna come back to
him? He's on clothes line upalready. Idiots, So what what the
on your ass off? Stop beinga jackass? Right well, and I
this is kind of part of ifI'm remembering it correctly, that the conversation

(36:58):
that you and I I have hadat your school is just the idea that
some of these guys want. Ithink that the most common thing I hear
from from young guys is more comfortableas a heel. I like being a
heel, But these very same people, from what I've experienced a lot of

(37:22):
times, are not really out thereto make the babyface, which is the
whole point of it. So ifyou're actually more comfortable being a heel,
then where you're comfortable, where you'reyou're where your real comfort zone should be

(37:43):
is in putting over somebody else's ship. Mm hmm. I look at this.
Somebody tells me when they come toschool. Well, I'm better as
I'm bet as a heel. Ireally am. I'm not like good.
You're a baby face. Yeah,I like being the heel. I go,
I heard what you said. You'rea babyface. Now. I think

(38:07):
from a psychology standpoint, it's easierfor people to be and this goes back
to the cosplay thing. I thinkit's it's easier for people, or feels
more comfortable for people to say thatthey are better as a heel. But
it's almost the misperception of what aheel actually is. And again it goes

(38:30):
back to you weren't supposed to seehow those donuts were made. You're just
supposed to be standing there with yourcrumby fingers and glaze all over your face
having eaten the doughnut. You're notsupposed to know how that fucking thing got
made. Absolutely not like me andBubba tell you if you we're gonna make

(38:50):
you feel uncomfortable. You know,if you like, If you're uncomfortable being
a babyface, guess what You're ababyfacing. Gonna be baby face until we
tell you otherwise, until we feeluncomfortable. You need to learn both aspects
of the business, because if youwalk into w w E right now and
triple A said, hey, we'regonna make you a We're gonna make you
a babyface, but I'm a killnumber one. You don't say that.

(39:14):
Number one. Number two, youbetter learn you're gonna be a babyface.
You better be the best babyface inthat company. Mm hmm, yeah,
yeah, I I do. Ijust think that there's a there's just large
chunks of it that have been leftout over the years, and that the

(39:36):
teaching of some of these younger guysunfortunately, and it's a shame. It
really, it is a shame becauseyou got people out there taking uh kids
money, yeah, and doing itor not. It's so bad. Yeah,

(39:58):
it's so bad. And you knowthe his kids don't realize it.
You know, you open up thisbig, fancy place and you put all
this magical stuff in there, butdoes the you know what he's doing that?
Hey, do they know? Ilearned in a in an old Rocky
gym, Gleason's gym. They hadwater pipes, all of that, you
know, you know, they hadboxing rings in there and there was like

(40:21):
one wrestling ring on the side.It was like the old Rocky like in
the first first Rocky one and Rockytwo movies. That's how that's how I
learned how to wrestle. But rememberRocky three, he got his ass by
mister t because he tried to getout of that rocky gym. And when

(40:43):
it doesn't work that way, here, you're gonna yeah, that's my favorite
Rocky. By the way, it'sRocky three. Oh that's mine, that's
mister tubble A. Yeah yeah,uh uh, all right, Frank,
I gotta ask you to do me, uh, do me a favor.

(41:05):
Where where can we take this?I think we've we've covered a ton of
the coaching, the teaching, thewhat's wrong with the business sort of angles.
That's for fun. Yeah, allright, let's talk to E.
C W. I have enough time. I got two percent left on my

(41:30):
phone. U ship it's gonna diebecause it kept come eight minutes, six
minutes, and I was like,all right, let's bring this one off.
You talk of madrud talk about thenight you guys did the ten bells
salute I believe was in Queens andyou guys went off on the fan of

(41:52):
front row. Funny joy, funnyfunny story about that. We went off
because she was she was being verydisrespectful going on for rabbish and Rick Rude,
and so you know, everybody wasfired and silent. There's the bell.
She's like, oh, I don'tknow what the hell I gotta do
this for blah blah blah. Shewas sitting there with her two with two
kids, her son and her son'sfriend and this and that. So when

(42:14):
it was all over, we wejust went off on her. PAULI came
over and said, you know what, here's your money. Boom boom boom,
here's double that money. Now getthe fuck out of my my arena,
and here's the deal. Six yearslater, her son grew up became,
you know, a young punk teenager, and me and my sons are
walking out the Madison Square garden.As we're walking out, he goes,

(42:37):
hey, Devon, remember me madefront of her kick my mother out,
and you said, all that ship? Now what Now what I said,
if you don't kill little bony assaway from me, I will Wow.
Oh it was it was hius.So if that kid, if that kid
ever sees this, come on downto the school. Wow. We were

(43:04):
taking home lose Devon. So okay, okay, well then before we go,
I do want to put a littleshout out there to uh Diamond Dallas
Page. Absolutely, Yeah, Devonand I have been doing a ton of
d DP yoga together and uh,it's been this like common thread between the

(43:31):
two of us that has really,you know, been an iggy because Devon
and I have been aware of eachother, but we hadn't truly met.
It wasn't until that flight, rightDevon, that flight you and I talked.
It was like it was it wasamazing how it has met. Yeah,
and then through d DP yoga we'vereally had some like lengthy conversations and

(43:55):
realized we we see a lot ofthis industry in the same way. And
I count this man as as myfriend today and uh, man, I'm
so grateful for it and so gratefulfor you, sir, and uh and
god damn grateful for Diamond Dallas Page. Absolutely. I love that man.

(44:17):
He's the reason why I'm walking todayafter back surgery. Him and Bobby,
thank you very much. No,it's been an absolute pleasure, and I
look forward to continuing our process here. And yeah, man, I couldn't.
It makes me so so happy tohear that you feel better and it's

(44:39):
only going to get better. Exactly. Listen, I'm not saying I'm getting
back in the ring. I ain'tgonna be sewing Michaels and but I'm gonna
be able to do my thing wheni can, Yes, sir, Yes,
maybe a royal rumble, Yeah,yes sir, yes sir. So

(45:01):
you guys are here in this andyou'll be able to point back to this
when he's on WrestleMania two years fromor whatever next year. Yeah, we'll
be on the show. Please callme, Bobby, you know I'll go

(45:22):
on it. I have, yes, sir, a lot of fun.
But guys, right, well,we're gonna a reoccurring uh a reoccurring entity
on on this podcast if we can, oh, absolutely consider it done.
Yes, sir, love it.That's the Hall of Favor. Devon Dudley.

(45:43):
We want to lose him before youare plugs. And the school is
Devon Dudley Academy uh d d Auh right on Instagram and Twitter, just
go to d d A uh DevonDudley Academy. We are down the uh
street from the Performance Center twenty seventwenty side road. Give us a buzz

(46:05):
boro seven seven nine zero seven eightzero zero yep. And that is in
Orlando, Florida, y'all Winni Park, Winnipark, Florida. Yep, yep,
and uh yeah, I mean Ican't get over when I walk into
that building and I just I seethe pictures on the wall, the number

(46:30):
of you know, so many peoplewho I've crossed paths with who I'm like,
oh my god, I didn't knowyou had her and you had him,
and you know, you've really man, you've really connected. I've been
able to connect so many dots.Uh, just looking at the pictures on
your wall. Thank you very much. But again it's always, of course,

(46:54):
all right, Devon, well youand I will we'll catch up later
this week. And thank thank yousir for joining us. Thank you,
guys, thank you very much.Appreciate it. Yes, so that one

(47:17):
yeah scratched. Yeah, we justscratched the service and that ship. Yeah,
well that's where I thought we were, you know, hopefully going to
go. But we we just Ifelt like that direction was there right in
the beginning. And this is howthe conversations go with Devon, and I

(47:38):
is like, it's just I wejust I don't know. It was too
tempting to go the the coaching andteaching route because that's kind of where the
conversation started, and and I knewthere was good stuff in there that I
just wanted people to hear. Itwas why I wanted to have mom,

(47:58):
you know, and I want youguys to hear it too, because I
knew that, like as fans ofthe industry, Like I've had these conversations
with him, and I'm going,man, I think Dennis and Frank would
love to be a fly on oneof these walls. That's my favorite thing
about this show is when we havethose guys on Frank and I just get
to sit here and listen to youguys talk inside baseball shit, but stuff

(48:22):
that you know, we're not goingto take out of context or we're not
going to run off and you know, blow up at some point. It's
kind of it's kind of like theDave lagreca of being for Busted Open,
where he's a fan, he's nota he's not a wrestler, he doesn't
have any of that inside knowledge.So it's kind of helped to listen to

(48:43):
I'm glad you guys enjoy it,man, I enjoy doing it. And
and and I don't I don't wantto be, you know, negative in
these conversations and I apologize if someof the stuff does come off a little
bit that way. But it's like, it's this industry that we a lot

(49:04):
of us, you know, wemow all of us. I'll say,
we love And it's not to saythat, like I don't want anyone to
not feel as though they can havetheir piece of that pie. But it's
just some of what happens to theindustry based on some traditions being forgotten or

(49:25):
being considered less important, or justyou know, not being passed down period.
It's just, you know, Ithink we're seeing the results of some
of those things, and they're notnecessarily good, so it's hard to watch.
Do you think it's a generational thinglike just across the board that just

(49:45):
doesn't rest like just across the board. I'll answer that and say yeah,
because I see it in my industry, like in radio. I mean,
so I've been in radio for aboutas long as Bobby's been a pro wrestler,
and I've watched it kind of getto a point where the art of
what I do in the entertainment aspectbehind the microphone being a radio personality is

(50:07):
kind of gone. There's not alot of them out there, which is
why I'm trying my damnedest to kindof continue on doing the way I was
taught to do it and keep thatlittle bit of my industry alive where these
guys can go into a studio andjust rip out a show and send it
to thirty different radio stations and ittakes them twenty five thirty months. So

(50:30):
I enjoy doing the live stuff.I enjoy being an idiot on the radio
and saying wild shit, somewhat wildshit. I don't why. I don't
want to get myself fired, butI would. I would say it's got
to be a generational thing. It'skind of mediocre has been accepted for far
too long, so mediocrity is kindof the new norm. You're like,

(50:54):
it's good enough. Fuck it.Let me ask you this. Yeah,
when you walk, when you walkinto a locker room, now independent locker
room, what's the reaction, likeyou you're a vetter, you've been everywheres.
I don't know. I mean,it's not it's not like it it

(51:16):
was, But I didn't. Ididn't anticipate it. Being that. You
know, things have to change andthey have to evolve or else they cease
to exist and it's really just Iwould say, and I don't know if
it's my perspective, and I'm fullyaware of the fact that maybe that's really

(51:37):
the only thing that's changed is myperspective. But yeah, it's just different.
You have a lot less of teacherstudent sort of dynamic and a lot

(51:58):
more of just well, everybody isequal. There's and and that truth is
is everybody is not equal, youknow. But yet there's a an effort
for it to be that way becausenobody should be excluded, nobody should be

(52:22):
offended, nobody should be a Band C. And it's like, okay,
but that's not real, that's notlife. I don't know. Again,
I don't want to be negative aboutit. There's a lot of things
I think that I see these daystoo that I think are great, you

(52:44):
know, And I guess maybe it'sjust it's on us, the performers themselves
and the people who are now responsiblefor passing down traditions of the business to
just honor those that helped us alongthe way, you know, like Devon

(53:05):
talking about Rude and Hayman and thepeople, you know, Pat Patterson and
you know, Dare. I say, there's probably a good amount of you
know, today's pool of up andcoming wrestlers might not even know who Pat
Patterson is. I think that's aproblem. I Divon talked about all the

(53:29):
ric Flairs and all the guys shelistened to people. Do people that generation,
this generation taking Vanjack kind of stuffobviously that well, I think to
some degree and then to some degreethey don't. And I think that that
sometimes it's ignorance and that some peoplejust you don't you don't know what you

(53:52):
don't know, you know, andif you're a fan of the certain things
and more like I'll just pick onething out because I watched something the other
night and it had it was missinga lot of psychology, but it was
full of athleticism, and the athleticismwas put in front of the psychology.

(54:21):
And it's something that like I've alwayshad I'm not going to say I've always
had a problem with, but somethingI don't like when it's done, but
it's universally accepted at this point.And that could be just that like I'm
the old head in the locker roomnow, and like it's not the you

(54:45):
know, the audience or the demographic. I'm not it. But when you
do things that defy reason. There'sno why other than the fact that,
well I did that because I can. And it's like, well, but

(55:07):
why would you do it? Solike jumping to a place to jump back
to a different place to then jumpon your opponent, like those sort of
things, like you're just showing youyou're increasing the degree of difficulty, which
from an athletics standpoint, it youknow, it's not wasted on me,

(55:30):
it's it's impressive. But if there'sno logical reason that that made your effort
to defeat or or hurt your opponent, then why would you do it?
And if you do it and that'snot explainable, then don't you realize that

(55:57):
you're kind of can confirming for thepeople watching that like yeah, this is
bullshit. Yeah, you know.It'd be like if somebody's trying to win
a super Bowl, they're not gonnayou know, Tom Brady's not going to

(56:17):
drop back and go to throw aflood pattern into the end zone to win
and decide like, you know what, I'm going to kick this ball to
him because I can. You know, like, you're not going to do

(56:40):
that. So it takes away thebelief or the perception that like yeah,
I'm out here trying to win,and if we're going to lose that perception,
then as fans and performers like truly, why like what are what?

(57:02):
Really? What are we doing now? It makes no sense? Like now
it's like, okay, well,let's just pack up and let's go home.
I'll give you your money back,you know. I don't know,
man, I don't know. Idon't want to get on my soapbox.
I don't want to be a complainingmother effort, but I just yeah,

(57:25):
man, I think that there's there'sthings that have stood the test of time
as traditions in this business. AndI you know, I love talking to
a guy like Dbon Man. Itjust I don't know, makes me love
wrestling. See, like to listento you talk psychology and match psychology and

(57:46):
shit like that, and to seeall the athletic dudes that are out there
doing it right now. There's gotto be a middle ground somewhere where everything
kind of ties together so it's notjust a spot fest and it's not,
you know, just a technical match. There has to be room for that

(58:06):
in the middle somewhere. It's likewhen I watch baseball and they're very analytical
now, but baseball is a gameof feel and you know, the vibe
of the game and managing that way. So they're you know, using all
the tools that you have. There'sgot to be a way to just kind
of bring it all together and implementall of it. And I agree,
like now being a part of theshow and watching some of the stuff that's

(58:30):
on TV, and I'm like,that was really cool to look at Why
the fuck did he do that?Yeah? And and for me to say
that, like, who the fuckam I? You know, I don't
know what I'm really looking at,but I'm like, that look really cool.
But if you want me to thinkthat this is a fight, I
don't understand why you did that.Yeah. I think for me, especially

(58:52):
you know, being this trip backto working more independently and not just doing
TV wrestling, kind of the theoriesand the beliefs that I'm beginning to craft
for myself are some of that whereit's like, Okay, everything needs a

(59:14):
why. And if I were toif I were to, you know,
be tasked with, Okay, here'sthese ten people and you need to teach
them to be pro wrestlers, Ithink that that would be one of the
one of the biggest things I wouldI would task them or that I would

(59:35):
pass on to them, would wouldbe if you can't come up with like
a solid why maybe and maybe maybelike three whys, then I don't want
to see you do it, okay, you know, like just so that

(59:57):
there's some checks and balances and it'snot just this free for all of like
Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna goout and I'm going to do whatever the
fuck I want. Like that's achild you know what I mean, Like
as we get older as men,and I'm learning this the hard way boys,

(01:00:19):
you know, like and my wifewill tell you, like, you
know, I can be really childishsometimes, but it's taken you in an
extremely long amount of time because you'rewhat two hundred and fifty at this point.
Well, I like you had talkedabout before I was going to ask
you, Dennis, you had saidthat you had been in radio as long

(01:00:43):
as I've been in wrestling. Butthen I was like, I don't was
like I started wrestling in Gettysburg.There was no radio then, there was
no radio then, so like thetimelines are all fucked up. I mean,
I just don't see how that's posppossible, Dennis. True, but
we were born in the same room, so different mothers. Yeah, that's

(01:01:08):
that's that's true, same room,I think, different fathers. But listen,
who knows. No, I don'tthink so you. I mean,
you definitely look like your dad andI look like my dad. So I'm
going to Yeah, I'm the spinningimage of Dick Fish. Yeah, all

(01:01:31):
right, let's get into our plugsbecause I know you've got some stuff coming
up, mister Fish. Yeah,I am. This weekend, I will
be wrestling in Boca Raton, BocaRaton Wrestling on Sunday, but I will
also prior to that, I'm gonnabe doing a seminar with the Dark Arts

(01:01:55):
in Plant City, Florida. It'snear Tampa. And that is none other
than Malachi Black, friend of thisprogram. Yes, yes, what are
the other names? He's gone by? Alistair Black? Right right, right?

(01:02:16):
God damn it again. The concussions. You know, I think I
should wear a helmet all the time. But yes, the Dark Arts,
We're going to be doing a seminaron Saturday, that's the eighteenth of May.
We got a d DP yoga lessongoing on in Riverview. The evening

(01:02:43):
before that at Halix's Hitting Garage.Yeah, at the Oasis in the backyard.
Yeah. And then so it's aman, it's a full and busy
weekend. I'm going to be teachingsome Muay thaih actually know that'll be next

(01:03:06):
week, but either way, Yeah, it's a busy few days this weekend.
Really looking forward to the Boca Ratonshow too. Always love uh going
out working for those guys this NeilGlazer and Matt and they're just good,
good people, good good lovers ofwrestling, like they you know, and

(01:03:28):
they're just good for good for theindustry. They run a they run a
tight ship, and they they theydo wrestling well. And you know,
I'm just looking forward to going backout there. And however, here's the
only the downside to this is justthe amount of travel I'm going to be
doing over the course of a coupleof days. Ah. And it will

(01:03:53):
be very reminiscent of the end oflast week where I drove to Saint Petersburg
and had an engagement, only todrive the three and a half hours back
from Saint Petersburg to make a fourthirty am appointment and then you know,

(01:04:15):
dive right into the rest of myweek, which is now, which involved
a flight to Chicago and then stayover in Chicago for like an extra like
seven hours. But I did someDDP yoga there as well, at CrossFit

(01:04:40):
Hardwood Heights in Chicago. It's asuburb of Chicago. But anyway, that
was really they opened their doors tome. It was great, man.
I truly I can't say enough howmuch I enjoy teaching DDP yoga. I'll

(01:05:01):
be doing it in Tampa. I'llbe doing it in Riverview this Friday,
and dare I say, I'll probablybe doing some at the Dark Arts seminar
as well, because we're gonna doall things pro wrestling, all things muy
Thai. But I just think theDDP yoga is so beneficial to pro wrestling,
to martial arts, to life,to just being a better mover.

(01:05:27):
So yeah, all right, whenare you wrestling Jamie from House to Tampa.
That'll be at the end of May. That'll be May twenty sixth,
Atomic Legacy Wrestling, that'll be theend of the month, and then right

(01:05:49):
around that same time, I'm headedback to MLW. I'm gonna be in
Atlanta on the first of June.Hot Atlanta on the first of June.
Then we got River City Wrestle Conthe following weekend coming up in Saint Augustine.

(01:06:09):
Yeah, it's an exciting next fewweeks. Really really looking forward to
some of the things I have comingup. Let's not forget that the show
will be on location May thirty first, at the MVP Arena Albandy Stadium restaurant
and Bar, recording an episode there. The three of us will actually be
in the same room. Bobby willbe there for the show and then has

(01:06:30):
to leave almost immediately. I think, yeah, because I got to make
that June first night, so I'mgetting in that day. So my daughter's
graduating from fifth grade, so I'mhere that morning. I had to get
a later flight out. I willmake it to our live taping, you
know, with not a lot oftime to spare, and then I fly
out the following morning. I don'thave the flight to Atlanta yet, but

(01:06:58):
I'm sure it's going to be inthe morning, and so I'll probably be
in Albany for less than twenty fourhours. Well, the good news is
the show doesn't start until you getthere. So while we're booked to start
at seven o'clock. If we startat seven point thirty, we'll be all
right, because I'd be like,listen, what are you gonna do to

(01:07:20):
the show we started to? Imean, my name's on it. It's
not called the Undisputed Podcast with MikeKorna, right, I don't think so.
I mean it could be if wewanted to call it that, and
nobody wants to hear that. Nobodywants to call that except for maybe Mike,

(01:07:41):
Yeah, and maybe Eddie Brown orno, not Eddie Brown. I
don't think. First of all,I'm about ninety nine percent sure that Antonio
Brown doesn't even remember Mike. Oh, okay, we're the back. What're
his time here in Albany concussions?Yeah, CTE is definitely uh confecting.
That man's every day all right?But Albity Stadium Restaurant in the m VP

(01:08:06):
Arena, May thirty first. Wewill be there seven to nine ish.
I believe there are VIP packages availableup close personal seating. We can spit
on you if you'd like something.I don't know why I spend Frank we
Armors and Buddy arms arm wrestle onthe money. I'm laying down the gauntlet

(01:08:29):
as that's so late. So asis that gauntlet's been laid, mister Karna,
The gauntlet's been laid. Oh boy, so come on out and arm
wrestle Frank that should go well orone of your players, because he was
planning on bringing some guys to SoOkay, that's it. I don't hate

(01:08:53):
the player. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Correct. I
like you, Frank, thank youfor coming to the Douce dem know all
many Firebirds game to get that.Hey, what do you guys think of
this black on black shirt? Like? I think, what's it saying?
Bobbyfish Apparel dot Com needs to haveI love this like the black on black

(01:09:17):
it says. Oh, and Idon't want to have a fit ad shirt
on Bobby Fish Apparel dot Com,but you should have one of your own
shirts on that black on black.I'm thinking, I don't know, maybe
we need a professor shirt or youknow something most educated feet. I think

(01:09:38):
we should freshen up this the inventory. Yeah, choices bobbyfish Apparel dot Com
for all your Bobby Fish official gear. That's hard to stay by the way,
Bobbyfish Official. That's fun undisputed podcaststuff there, Bobby Fish Bookings seven
at gmail dot com to book mosteducated feet and professional Wrestling to come kick

(01:10:00):
in the face. Yes. Andwith that said, Frank's gonna shake his
moroccos on out of here, allright, I got I got nothing left.
And on that note, say goodnight Bobby, Good night Bobby.