September 2, 2025 • 23 mins
This episode was recorded live at the 2025 Joy & Wholeness Summit in Asheville, North Carolina.
Dhaval Desai was raised in Atlanta, Georgia, and completed his undergraduate studies at Emory University. He completed medical school at American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine in St. Maarten, performed his clinical years of medical school in New York City, and had the opportunity to rotate through various different community hospitals. He completed his residency at Wright State University School of Medicine in Dayton, Ohio in combined internal medicine & pediatrics and became board certified in internal medicine & pediatrics in 2012. After briefly working in Ohio, he joined Emory Saint Joseph’s Hospital in 2012 as a hospitalist and serves currently as the director of hospital medicine. Desai also works at CHOA several times per year as a pediatric hospitalist. Over the past several years, he has developed a passion for the patient and human experience in medicine, focusing on patient-centered care.
Thanks for tuning in! Check out more episodes of The Well-Being Connector at www.bethejoy.org/podcast.
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Unknown (00:00):
🎵 🎵
Speaker 00 (00:13):
Welcome to another episode of the Well-Being
Connector podcast hosted by RoyReid and sponsored by the
Coalition for Physician and APPWell-Being.
This episode is one of amulti-part series recorded live
at the 2025 Joy and WholenessSummit.
Thank you for listening.
Speaker 02 (00:31):
Welcome to our next episode
Speaker 01 (01:01):
Clinically practicing as an attending for
the past almost 15 years.
I've been a leader, a directorof our hospital medicine group
for over 10.
And if you asked me 15 yearsago, would I be involved in this
type of work?
The answer would be probablynot.
But, you know, late 20 teensand right around COVID and after
COVID, I initially became veryexcited about the human
(01:26):
experience in medicine and moreso the patient side of things,
because I knew we were doingthings that are not the best.
optimal communicationexperiences for patients.
2020 COVID, all of the crisesthat followed, I also realized
at that point that I was at rockbottom from a burnout and
mental health standpoint.
Our second child was born twoweeks before the country shut
(01:48):
down.
And my wife, also a physician,her maternity leave turned into
caring for a four-year-old and anewborn.
And I was back on the frontlines in the fire, so to speak.
All to be said, not forsympathy, but really it was a
very climactic critical pointwhere i knew i the adrenaline
had waned and i was strugglingum and to make a long story
(02:09):
short it was really about me onerecognizing that i was
struggling number two what am igoing to do about it um and
number three actually do thatall still while working being a
father being a husband all ofthat and um i did it you know i
got through it i'm still a workin progress um i am let's see a
therapist i have been throughsome medications and medications
(02:31):
And a year and a half into thatjourney when I realized, okay,
you know, this idea ofstruggling as a physician who is
struggling, mental health, thefrontline, what we're all
dealing with, I'm not alone.
And it was time to share myjourney.
Speaker 02 (02:50):
First of all, thank you for not just sharing your
story, but the vulnerability ofsharing some of those details.
A lot of times it is areluctance to share your story.
to get help thinking that wedon't need it.
And for you to share that, Ithink it's important for the
listener in terms of bothunderstanding how you got where
(03:10):
you are, but also where we'regoing to go in the conversation.
So thank you.
Having shared all of that, tellus a little bit about what
you're doing now, what youtalked about in your speech and
perhaps a little bit of theresults you're seeing from the
work.
Speaker 01 (03:24):
Yeah.
You know, right now, my idea,what I talked about today was
psychological safety of thefrontline.
And there's so much aboutkeeping our frontline feeling
safe at work, from feeling likethey can trust and feel
physically safe from violence,that they feel like their
environment is inclusive andaccepting and keeping them safe,
(03:44):
whatever their background is.
And the reason I came to talkabout that was I have seen
workplace violence events thatare suboptimally or not
responded to.
I have seen racial tensions inthe hospital after 2020, you
know, with the twin pandemic ofracism, with the murder of a
Mm-hmm.
(04:07):
Physician mental health,physician suicide, all of that
(04:34):
kind of ties into the samepiece.
But today, the focus was onpsychological safety and really,
you know, critically appraisingwhat the current environment
looks like with that, what's notbeing done or what systems
think they're doing but aren'tdoing and how we passionate
about this topic and the 200people that were there.
(04:55):
I think we all have a lot incommon on that is things we can
take back.
And importantly, you know, asleaders be vulnerable.
challenge the system, and makesure our teams know it's okay to
not be okay and call out what'snot being done.
Speaker 02 (05:08):
That's outstanding.
Tell me a little bit about howdo you measure or what are the
markers that you're looking forthat either say there is
psychological safety within aunit or within an organization
or not?
I
Speaker 01 (05:25):
think the biggest things you can look for,
obviously, there are thosemetrics and the workplace
engagement surveys that say AndI don't know the exact question.
Each survey is a littledifferent, but do you feel like
you belong at this institution?
Do you feel trust and supportby your leaders?
Those are the things we want tolook for.
There are specific safetyquestions, and those are
obviously ones we can look for.
And a lot of times what we'reseeing is physicians, nurses,
(05:50):
the frontline, they simply don'tfeel like the work environment
is as safe.
And you're not going to getmaybe a zero out of five, with
five being the best, but you'regoing to get maybe a three out
of five.
But how is it three out of fiveokay.
How is that okay when we workin a profession that demands so
much of us, but we still don'tfeel safe?
(06:10):
I just don't see how that's anacceptable way for us to be, and
we have to work towards gettingthat better.
Speaker 02 (06:16):
Outstanding.
Tell us a little bit about whatyou're doing.
What's your program look like?
What are some of
Speaker 01 (06:23):
the activities?
Yeah, so, you know, thingswithin Emory Healthcare where I
work, we've worked on isworkplace violence response,
really organizing a unifiedapproach for workplace violence.
The other things that I'mpassionate about doing is
helping physicians, nurses,frontline feel empowered to say
something, to help be asolution, and also be
(06:45):
vulnerable.
I think a lot of times we go inwith this front and face trying
to be the tough person and justkind of, it's what we signed up
for, we have to do.
But there is more power invulnerability and knowing where
we have pitfalls, knowing Ithink acknowledging those
(07:05):
openly, not only as a leader,but as a team member helps build
those relationships.
And that's what we need to, wereally need to focus on because
I think we have to be real witheach other.
And that's so important,especially in the work that we
do, which is getting harder andharder to do.
Speaker 02 (07:21):
Yeah.
Unpack the training a littlebit or the programs that help
people get to that place ofvulnerability that opens the
door to.
Speaker 01 (07:30):
I think it's modeling.
I think a big part is leadershave to model vulnerability.
There are structured thingsthat can be done, whether
there's listening sessions,talking about second victim
syndrome, creating safe spacesto talk about that.
Those are all things.
But I think fundamentally atthe bottom of the pyramid, it
starts with trust in a leaderthat's going to be vulnerable
(07:53):
and model that behavior.
I am saying this about what I'mstruggling with.
I'm openly expressingemotionally with my team.
Now they are, I'm broke that Isaid, they can feel comfortable
that it's okay to do that.
And I know it sounds simple,but it's, it's something that's
very easy for lack of betterwords to be done because people
(08:14):
will follow their leader,especially a good leader.
Speaker 02 (08:17):
Yeah.
We find in exit surveys thatmost people don't leave a job.
They leave a manager.
Speaker 01 (08:21):
Isn't that the truth?
That is the truth.
Speaker 02 (08:24):
Tell me.
So if modeling is thatfoundational idea that, Talk
about the journey to getleadership buy-in for the things
that you're advocating forwithin Emory.
Speaker 01 (08:35):
It's a journey.
I think that's a good way ofputting it.
It's a journey.
I think we keep have to tellthe stories of the human
experience from the front lineand the journey will happen.
And sometimes there'll be acatalyst on the journey when
there is a sensational eventthat causes people to feel less
(08:56):
safe or feel in danger, whetherthat's a physical physical
violence, gun violence in thehospital, or severe verbal
assault.
It's sort of those things wherewe cycle along, cycle along,
have a big event, and that's theevent that you have to respond
to and either change and pivotbehavior from a leadership
standpoint or continue to let itride it out.
And I argue at those events,which all of us face, these
(09:19):
events at our respectiveinstitutions, that a suboptimal
response will lead to that, youknow, what you're describing,
that it's the management thatyou're not satisfied with.
And that's when we have to pourin all the resources, all the,
you know, all the communicationtransparently about what system
doesn't know, what we can do,what we're going to try to do at
(09:40):
that moment to make thingsbetter.
And that's what I'm encouragingand I'm pushing for.
You know, I'm not the executiveCEO, but I'm a middle manager
of a team of 30 plus physicians.
Even when I don't know theanswer, I'll tell them at this
time, this is what we know.
I agree.
This is bad.
Here's what we're doing locallyfor our team.
What I want to do, I'll updatemore as soon as I can.
(10:01):
And that says more to somebodythan not saying anything.
Speaker 02 (10:05):
Talk about some of the results you're seeing from
the work you've done.
Speaker 01 (10:08):
I think we're seeing increased retention, physicians
feeling more satisfied in theirwork that they do, feeling
trust with leadership.
As you said, people leave notthe job, they leave their
leader.
And we're not seeing I'm notseeing my physicians, my
physician, I don't like to callbe territorial like that.
But the physicians that workwith me, I'm not seeing them
leave.
And on my engagement survey,you know, yes, there's
(10:28):
systematic issues, things thatcome up.
But when it comes to aleadership evaluation, I'm
seeing that there's trust there.
I'm seeing that we are doingwhat's right.
And I find that other leaderswho follow that also are seeing
that.
So it turns out to workplaceengagement, trust, and all that
leads to then joy and practicingand joy and satisfying and
satisfaction being where you'reat.
Speaker 02 (10:50):
And so how does that role to the staff as well?
Are you able to track, measure,or see an impact on the staff
that the physicians are workingwith?
Speaker 01 (11:01):
That's a really good question.
You know, whether there's ametric I can track on that off
the hand, I can't share, butthere's anecdotal feedback.
These are our doctors.
This is who we like workingwith.
I will share this.
When our program first started,you know, we're the new guys on
the block as hospital medicinephysicians, and it's hard to
develop those trust andrelationships with staff.
(11:22):
But the more cohesive andstronger our culture internally
began to do, you know, became,so to speak, we saw the
translation, what seeing on thefloors and how we're interacting
with staff and becomingingrained in the culture of
being, you know, where thephysicians, yes, but still being
part of them.
So we see less complaints, wesee more satisfaction, we see,
(11:46):
you know, like hospitalmedicine, that's our group, we
love our physicians.
And that's, those are the bigthings I think we can look for.
And
Speaker 02 (11:52):
so as you've gone down this road and rolled this
out, what do you see a year fromnow?
What's an emerging issue thatyou feel is going to take front
and center or perhaps a newapproach that you've introduced
that you are excited about thatmay produce some results?
Speaker 01 (12:11):
You know, I think the biggest thing we need to
know is in our country andsociety, we're going to keep
being divided.
And I think that division isgoing to continue to grow given
where we're at.
And I always say hospitals andhealthcare systems are micro
societies of what's going onoutside of the hospital.
So instead of keep drivingmore, maybe innovation, it if we
can sustain the way we aretreating each other as teams,
(12:33):
unit-based leadership, sort ofthose cohorts, small group
leadership, if we can sustainthat, those strong
relationships, that camaraderie,and most importantly, that
trust, all that will lead to themore psychological safety at
work.
And that's what we're going toneed when things are so divided.
Is
Speaker 02 (12:52):
there a correlation that you're finding with the
outcomes that you're getting aspeople feel safer to outcomes in
terms of the delivery of careand the quality of care?
Speaker 01 (13:05):
Hypothetically, yes.
Whether I've had a correlationwhen I'm seeing what we are
doing resulting in that, and Ican say A to B equals C,
probably not.
But I will say this, themetrics that we watch, which are
unfortunately, fortunately,however you look at it, the
business metrics of hospitals,length of stay, readmissions,
hospital acquired infections,things that make hospital
(13:25):
administrators freak out, right?
We're seeing even either...
improvement or sustaining wherewe're at on those results.
So I would say, you know,talking out loud with you right
now, as I think through that,that's where we want to be
because sustaining is very hardto do in healthcare.
Absolutely.
Change management, right?
So sustainability is thehardest thing.
You can do a project, but thenit'll fizzle out.
Speaker 02 (13:48):
Those are all important.
And so as you work with theleadership of the hospital, the
organization, do you have peoplethat are taking a role as being
a champion for your work andreally advocating for you as the
advocate?
Good
Speaker 01 (14:04):
question.
The short answer is yes.
There is a separate wellnessgroup for the system called
Mwell.
And I think each organizationhas something like that.
And are they advocating?
Yes.
Is there still opportunity formore advocacy and more
resources?
Bigger yes on that.
So I think it goes to show you,me, we're all here because, you
(14:27):
know, I think your chairman CEOpresented this yesterday that
the number of the burnout scoresare better but we can't run
with that no the work continues
Speaker 02 (14:37):
yeah yeah it's hard work no that's right that's like
your your your observation thatwhy would we ever settle for
three why on safety that's justnot acceptable not at all not at
all so our listeners are allpeople and working with
organizations trying to improvethe condition and well-being of
folks as they think as you thinkabout what you've done
(14:58):
particularly in thispsychological safety what tips
would you give someone who mayjust be having those first few
steps in trying to start aprogram?
Speaker 01 (15:07):
Very good question.
First and foremost, bevulnerable, be transparent with
communication, and it's okay tonot know everything.
So what that means is you maynot have a solution to the
problem, but you're being open,you're being vulnerable, you're
being real, you're beingtransparent.
If we can have those qualities,and I say that intentionally
because for better or worse, notevery leader can do that,
(15:31):
especially when you're firsttime taking on a leadership
position, you feel like you haveto have it all together.
But if we can, especially inhealthcare, accept that you
don't have to, and the way toget a team successfully managed
is to have those qualities.
I think that would be the firstimportant step.
If somebody had told me that 10years ago, when I took my
leadership position, my firstyear and a half probably would
(15:54):
have been better because I'll behonest, my first year and a
half as a leader, I was tryingto fix everything, trying to
keep perfect, trying to keep ahappy face.
And keep that borderline toxicpositivity.
And I rapidly realized that'snot the way it's not going to
(16:22):
sustain like that.
And yeah, that's one way tolead, but it's not realistic.
And the problem with that ispeople on the front line who are
very smart clinicians, mindyou, they're scientists in their
own way.
(16:42):
They figure that out.
Like, no,
Speaker 02 (16:45):
it's not.
And we have to listen to that.
Absolutely.
What's next for you?
Speaker 01 (16:50):
Yeah, I'm in it.
So I'm also an author.
I wrote a memoir burning out onthe COVID front lines.
And I donate all of my proceedsin my story to the Dr.
Lorna Breen Heroes Foundation.
I'm going continuing to usewriting as a tool for advocacy
and social media.
And I'm hoping to start apodcast myself on mental health,
burnout, vulnerability that cannot only apply to healthcare
(17:12):
workers, but other professionstoo.
I have two school age kids inpublic school, and I will say
this, teachers are just as mucha frontline in a very complex
system as healthcare workers.
Speaker 02 (17:23):
No doubt about
Speaker 01 (17:23):
that.
So
Speaker 02 (17:24):
that's the plan.
Where can people find yourbook?
Speaker 01 (17:26):
Thank you.
On any major book platform,they can find my book, Burning
out on the COVID front lines.
And I also have a website,devaldisimd.com.
Speaker 02 (17:35):
And I'm assuming you're available for speeches.
Speaker 01 (17:38):
Absolutely.
Always open to anything, acollaboration.
I think, as I told thismorning, as a platform in a
place like this, you findlike-minded people and we
continue to need theselike-minded people to grow.
So always open to it.
Speaker 02 (17:51):
Well, with the time we have left, what haven't we
talked about that's on yourheart?
Speaker 01 (17:55):
Yeah, good question.
The biggest thing on my heartis I saw health care in a
different eye when my dad passedaway last year 15 months ago
when i was on the sidelines withhim and it's the grief journey
is very complex but what i seeis i had the most respected
doctors at the bedside who werei could tell were burnt out with
(18:16):
the way they were communicatingand what worries me for all of
us who are going to be utilizersof the health care system how
are we going to have the besthealth care system it's we have
the healthiest and best healthcare workers and we need to
really focus on that and thework you're doing with advent
health and this coalition andthe work we're all doing
together, I'm hopeful andoptimistic that's what's going
to help get us there.
Speaker 02 (18:37):
I'm going to ask one more question.
I'm going to pivot off of yourpersonal experience.
Grief is a big deal.
How have you struggled throughthat?
Speaker 01 (18:47):
I'm struggling as we speak.
I really want to know thetruth.
I will say this.
I was trained as a doctor thatthe first year of grief is the
hardest because you have all thefirsts from birthdays,
holidays.
I will say this.
We hit the the first year markand months 13 through 16 have
almost been harder because itfeels very real now.
Like this is very permanent andthere's good days and bad days.
(19:11):
And yes, grief is not a linearjourney.
You've heard that, but it's sotrue.
So I wish I could have aconversation with you and said,
I figured out the grief and it'sfine, but I have not.
And it's a struggle in a goodand bad way.
I will say that, you know, welike to honor my dad the way the
best way with my kids they gotto know him but we talk about
(19:34):
him often but it's tough griefis very tough and it's I will
say this he passed away at thehospital where I work and there
are days when I walk by one ofthe rooms he was in and I just
pause and kind of jolt myselflike whoa that feels a little
yucky
Speaker 02 (19:48):
well I appreciate you sharing that and knowing
what my wife lost her mom withinthe last couple of years and we
see it every day and one of thethings that she did and she at
Licensed Mental Health Counselorwas find a group, get engaged
with a group that...
A grief
Speaker 01 (20:05):
support group.
Yeah.
You know, that's so important.
My mom, who's here on this tripin Nashville with us, we
brought her with us just to gether out a little bit.
And she's very active and helpsmy kids, but the grief is a
major...
In that month, 13 through 16,really feeling it.
So it's almost like a sign foryou to say that because we're
getting her connected as wespeak with the grief support
group because it's such a lonelyjourney.
(20:27):
And, you know, David...
I'm not sure if you've heard ofhim.
I learned, you know him, thegrief, he's a grief expert.
And I'm going to use one of hisquotes as we talk about this,
that we all come into this worldin the middle of someone's
movie and we leave the world inthe middle of someone's movie
and the movie never finishes.
Isn't that wild?
(20:48):
I know.
Doesn't that get you?
Speaker 02 (20:49):
If you have one before we wrap up, is there an
anecdote, a conversation, anexperience that you've had over
the last couple of years?
if you've done this, thatstands out as a marker for you
to the value of the work thatyou've been doing with your
physicians and even the peopleimpacted by the work you do with
(21:12):
the physicians.
Speaker 01 (21:14):
I think it's been a series of things.
I think it's kind of individualevents when I hear from that
nurse or that physicianindividually come to me and
somehow get connected with meand openly talk about what the
issue is and nobody's backingthem up and they feel very
isolated.
And I'm not there necessarilyto say, yeah, you're right.
(21:36):
What you did didn't happen.
Or yes, it was an adverseoutcome, but let me back you up.
And this is what you need todo.
And this is how I'm going to, Iwent through this.
This is what happens.
And I a hundred percentvalidate what you're feeling
because the bigger system, notEmory or wherever this, the
system's not designed to takecare of us.
And when I have thoseconversations and it's some with
somebody, let's just put itthis way.
Somebody who I always felt issomebody I would never be able
(21:58):
to relate to as a friend.
Or I always felt they'resuperior because they're a
specialist of a specialist andthe brightest mind.
And it's like, what do theywant to do with me?
And I have that bond.
And to your point, 15 yearsago, what I've ever thought I
would have some connection withthem.
That's when I feel like, okay,you know what, this work is
worth it.
And somebody's listening.
So
Speaker 02 (22:19):
yeah, the human connection
Speaker 01 (22:20):
is, it is in this, this area.
It's one of those things thatpeople are so scared sometimes
to even talk like a fire.
But once you open up thefloodgates, and that's why I
chose to be open with with mystory.
Once you open that floodgate,it's like, okay,
Speaker 02 (22:33):
it's time.
It is.
This has been a pleasure.
Speaker 01 (22:36):
Likewise.
I mean, you're so easy to talkto.
Thank you.
Well,
Speaker 02 (22:40):
so are you.
And I know that our listenersare going to benefit from
everything you've talked aboutand the work that you've done.
Thank you for committing to itand spending this time with us
today.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 00 (22:55):
Thank you for tuning in to the Well-Being Connector
podcast, brought to you by theCoalition for Physician and APP
Well-Being.
The Well-Being Connector offersinsightful conversations with
healthcare professionals devotedto fostering wholeness within
their organizations.
Each episode delves deep intothe holistic approach to
well-being, underscoring theimportance of physical, mental,
(23:16):
social, and spiritual health.
For more episodes, visit ourwebsite at www.bethejoy.org
podcast.
🎵 🎵
Speaker 00 (00:13):
Welcome to another episode of the Well-Being
Connector podcast hosted by RoyReid and sponsored by the
Coalition for Physician and APPWell-Being.
This episode is one of amulti-part series recorded live
at the 2025 Joy and WholenessSummit.
Thank you for listening.
Speaker 02 (00:31):
Welcome to our next episode
Speaker 01 (01:01):
Clinically practicing as an attending for
the past almost 15 years.
I've been a leader, a directorof our hospital medicine group
for over 10.
And if you asked me 15 yearsago, would I be involved in this
type of work?
The answer would be probablynot.
But, you know, late 20 teensand right around COVID and after
COVID, I initially became veryexcited about the human
(01:26):
experience in medicine and moreso the patient side of things,
because I knew we were doingthings that are not the best.
optimal communicationexperiences for patients.
2020 COVID, all of the crisesthat followed, I also realized
at that point that I was at rockbottom from a burnout and
mental health standpoint.
Our second child was born twoweeks before the country shut
(01:48):
down.
And my wife, also a physician,her maternity leave turned into
caring for a four-year-old and anewborn.
And I was back on the frontlines in the fire, so to speak.
All to be said, not forsympathy, but really it was a
very climactic critical pointwhere i knew i the adrenaline
had waned and i was strugglingum and to make a long story
(02:09):
short it was really about me onerecognizing that i was
struggling number two what am igoing to do about it um and
number three actually do thatall still while working being a
father being a husband all ofthat and um i did it you know i
got through it i'm still a workin progress um i am let's see a
therapist i have been throughsome medications and medications
(02:31):
And a year and a half into thatjourney when I realized, okay,
you know, this idea ofstruggling as a physician who is
struggling, mental health, thefrontline, what we're all
dealing with, I'm not alone.
And it was time to share myjourney.
Speaker 02 (02:50):
First of all, thank you for not just sharing your
story, but the vulnerability ofsharing some of those details.
A lot of times it is areluctance to share your story.
to get help thinking that wedon't need it.
And for you to share that, Ithink it's important for the
listener in terms of bothunderstanding how you got where
(03:10):
you are, but also where we'regoing to go in the conversation.
So thank you.
Having shared all of that, tellus a little bit about what
you're doing now, what youtalked about in your speech and
perhaps a little bit of theresults you're seeing from the
work.
Speaker 01 (03:24):
Yeah.
You know, right now, my idea,what I talked about today was
psychological safety of thefrontline.
And there's so much aboutkeeping our frontline feeling
safe at work, from feeling likethey can trust and feel
physically safe from violence,that they feel like their
environment is inclusive andaccepting and keeping them safe,
(03:44):
whatever their background is.
And the reason I came to talkabout that was I have seen
workplace violence events thatare suboptimally or not
responded to.
I have seen racial tensions inthe hospital after 2020, you
know, with the twin pandemic ofracism, with the murder of a
Mm-hmm.
(04:07):
Physician mental health,physician suicide, all of that
(04:34):
kind of ties into the samepiece.
But today, the focus was onpsychological safety and really,
you know, critically appraisingwhat the current environment
looks like with that, what's notbeing done or what systems
think they're doing but aren'tdoing and how we passionate
about this topic and the 200people that were there.
(04:55):
I think we all have a lot incommon on that is things we can
take back.
And importantly, you know, asleaders be vulnerable.
challenge the system, and makesure our teams know it's okay to
not be okay and call out what'snot being done.
Speaker 02 (05:08):
That's outstanding.
Tell me a little bit about howdo you measure or what are the
markers that you're looking forthat either say there is
psychological safety within aunit or within an organization
or not?
I
Speaker 01 (05:25):
think the biggest things you can look for,
obviously, there are thosemetrics and the workplace
engagement surveys that say AndI don't know the exact question.
Each survey is a littledifferent, but do you feel like
you belong at this institution?
Do you feel trust and supportby your leaders?
Those are the things we want tolook for.
There are specific safetyquestions, and those are
obviously ones we can look for.
And a lot of times what we'reseeing is physicians, nurses,
(05:50):
the frontline, they simply don'tfeel like the work environment
is as safe.
And you're not going to getmaybe a zero out of five, with
five being the best, but you'regoing to get maybe a three out
of five.
But how is it three out of fiveokay.
How is that okay when we workin a profession that demands so
much of us, but we still don'tfeel safe?
(06:10):
I just don't see how that's anacceptable way for us to be, and
we have to work towards gettingthat better.
Speaker 02 (06:16):
Outstanding.
Tell us a little bit about whatyou're doing.
What's your program look like?
What are some of
Speaker 01 (06:23):
the activities?
Yeah, so, you know, thingswithin Emory Healthcare where I
work, we've worked on isworkplace violence response,
really organizing a unifiedapproach for workplace violence.
The other things that I'mpassionate about doing is
helping physicians, nurses,frontline feel empowered to say
something, to help be asolution, and also be
(06:45):
vulnerable.
I think a lot of times we go inwith this front and face trying
to be the tough person and justkind of, it's what we signed up
for, we have to do.
But there is more power invulnerability and knowing where
we have pitfalls, knowing Ithink acknowledging those
(07:05):
openly, not only as a leader,but as a team member helps build
those relationships.
And that's what we need to, wereally need to focus on because
I think we have to be real witheach other.
And that's so important,especially in the work that we
do, which is getting harder andharder to do.
Speaker 02 (07:21):
Yeah.
Unpack the training a littlebit or the programs that help
people get to that place ofvulnerability that opens the
door to.
Speaker 01 (07:30):
I think it's modeling.
I think a big part is leadershave to model vulnerability.
There are structured thingsthat can be done, whether
there's listening sessions,talking about second victim
syndrome, creating safe spacesto talk about that.
Those are all things.
But I think fundamentally atthe bottom of the pyramid, it
starts with trust in a leaderthat's going to be vulnerable
(07:53):
and model that behavior.
I am saying this about what I'mstruggling with.
I'm openly expressingemotionally with my team.
Now they are, I'm broke that Isaid, they can feel comfortable
that it's okay to do that.
And I know it sounds simple,but it's, it's something that's
very easy for lack of betterwords to be done because people
(08:14):
will follow their leader,especially a good leader.
Speaker 02 (08:17):
Yeah.
We find in exit surveys thatmost people don't leave a job.
They leave a manager.
Speaker 01 (08:21):
Isn't that the truth?
That is the truth.
Speaker 02 (08:24):
Tell me.
So if modeling is thatfoundational idea that, Talk
about the journey to getleadership buy-in for the things
that you're advocating forwithin Emory.
Speaker 01 (08:35):
It's a journey.
I think that's a good way ofputting it.
It's a journey.
I think we keep have to tellthe stories of the human
experience from the front lineand the journey will happen.
And sometimes there'll be acatalyst on the journey when
there is a sensational eventthat causes people to feel less
(08:56):
safe or feel in danger, whetherthat's a physical physical
violence, gun violence in thehospital, or severe verbal
assault.
It's sort of those things wherewe cycle along, cycle along,
have a big event, and that's theevent that you have to respond
to and either change and pivotbehavior from a leadership
standpoint or continue to let itride it out.
And I argue at those events,which all of us face, these
(09:19):
events at our respectiveinstitutions, that a suboptimal
response will lead to that, youknow, what you're describing,
that it's the management thatyou're not satisfied with.
And that's when we have to pourin all the resources, all the,
you know, all the communicationtransparently about what system
doesn't know, what we can do,what we're going to try to do at
(09:40):
that moment to make thingsbetter.
And that's what I'm encouragingand I'm pushing for.
You know, I'm not the executiveCEO, but I'm a middle manager
of a team of 30 plus physicians.
Even when I don't know theanswer, I'll tell them at this
time, this is what we know.
I agree.
This is bad.
Here's what we're doing locallyfor our team.
What I want to do, I'll updatemore as soon as I can.
(10:01):
And that says more to somebodythan not saying anything.
Speaker 02 (10:05):
Talk about some of the results you're seeing from
the work you've done.
Speaker 01 (10:08):
I think we're seeing increased retention, physicians
feeling more satisfied in theirwork that they do, feeling
trust with leadership.
As you said, people leave notthe job, they leave their
leader.
And we're not seeing I'm notseeing my physicians, my
physician, I don't like to callbe territorial like that.
But the physicians that workwith me, I'm not seeing them
leave.
And on my engagement survey,you know, yes, there's
(10:28):
systematic issues, things thatcome up.
But when it comes to aleadership evaluation, I'm
seeing that there's trust there.
I'm seeing that we are doingwhat's right.
And I find that other leaderswho follow that also are seeing
that.
So it turns out to workplaceengagement, trust, and all that
leads to then joy and practicingand joy and satisfying and
satisfaction being where you'reat.
Speaker 02 (10:50):
And so how does that role to the staff as well?
Are you able to track, measure,or see an impact on the staff
that the physicians are workingwith?
Speaker 01 (11:01):
That's a really good question.
You know, whether there's ametric I can track on that off
the hand, I can't share, butthere's anecdotal feedback.
These are our doctors.
This is who we like workingwith.
I will share this.
When our program first started,you know, we're the new guys on
the block as hospital medicinephysicians, and it's hard to
develop those trust andrelationships with staff.
(11:22):
But the more cohesive andstronger our culture internally
began to do, you know, became,so to speak, we saw the
translation, what seeing on thefloors and how we're interacting
with staff and becomingingrained in the culture of
being, you know, where thephysicians, yes, but still being
part of them.
So we see less complaints, wesee more satisfaction, we see,
(11:46):
you know, like hospitalmedicine, that's our group, we
love our physicians.
And that's, those are the bigthings I think we can look for.
And
Speaker 02 (11:52):
so as you've gone down this road and rolled this
out, what do you see a year fromnow?
What's an emerging issue thatyou feel is going to take front
and center or perhaps a newapproach that you've introduced
that you are excited about thatmay produce some results?
Speaker 01 (12:11):
You know, I think the biggest thing we need to
know is in our country andsociety, we're going to keep
being divided.
And I think that division isgoing to continue to grow given
where we're at.
And I always say hospitals andhealthcare systems are micro
societies of what's going onoutside of the hospital.
So instead of keep drivingmore, maybe innovation, it if we
can sustain the way we aretreating each other as teams,
(12:33):
unit-based leadership, sort ofthose cohorts, small group
leadership, if we can sustainthat, those strong
relationships, that camaraderie,and most importantly, that
trust, all that will lead to themore psychological safety at
work.
And that's what we're going toneed when things are so divided.
Is
Speaker 02 (12:52):
there a correlation that you're finding with the
outcomes that you're getting aspeople feel safer to outcomes in
terms of the delivery of careand the quality of care?
Speaker 01 (13:05):
Hypothetically, yes.
Whether I've had a correlationwhen I'm seeing what we are
doing resulting in that, and Ican say A to B equals C,
probably not.
But I will say this, themetrics that we watch, which are
unfortunately, fortunately,however you look at it, the
business metrics of hospitals,length of stay, readmissions,
hospital acquired infections,things that make hospital
(13:25):
administrators freak out, right?
We're seeing even either...
improvement or sustaining wherewe're at on those results.
So I would say, you know,talking out loud with you right
now, as I think through that,that's where we want to be
because sustaining is very hardto do in healthcare.
Absolutely.
Change management, right?
So sustainability is thehardest thing.
You can do a project, but thenit'll fizzle out.
Speaker 02 (13:48):
Those are all important.
And so as you work with theleadership of the hospital, the
organization, do you have peoplethat are taking a role as being
a champion for your work andreally advocating for you as the
advocate?
Good
Speaker 01 (14:04):
question.
The short answer is yes.
There is a separate wellnessgroup for the system called
Mwell.
And I think each organizationhas something like that.
And are they advocating?
Yes.
Is there still opportunity formore advocacy and more
resources?
Bigger yes on that.
So I think it goes to show you,me, we're all here because, you
(14:27):
know, I think your chairman CEOpresented this yesterday that
the number of the burnout scoresare better but we can't run
with that no the work continues
Speaker 02 (14:37):
yeah yeah it's hard work no that's right that's like
your your your observation thatwhy would we ever settle for
three why on safety that's justnot acceptable not at all not at
all so our listeners are allpeople and working with
organizations trying to improvethe condition and well-being of
folks as they think as you thinkabout what you've done
(14:58):
particularly in thispsychological safety what tips
would you give someone who mayjust be having those first few
steps in trying to start aprogram?
Speaker 01 (15:07):
Very good question.
First and foremost, bevulnerable, be transparent with
communication, and it's okay tonot know everything.
So what that means is you maynot have a solution to the
problem, but you're being open,you're being vulnerable, you're
being real, you're beingtransparent.
If we can have those qualities,and I say that intentionally
because for better or worse, notevery leader can do that,
(15:31):
especially when you're firsttime taking on a leadership
position, you feel like you haveto have it all together.
But if we can, especially inhealthcare, accept that you
don't have to, and the way toget a team successfully managed
is to have those qualities.
I think that would be the firstimportant step.
If somebody had told me that 10years ago, when I took my
leadership position, my firstyear and a half probably would
(15:54):
have been better because I'll behonest, my first year and a
half as a leader, I was tryingto fix everything, trying to
keep perfect, trying to keep ahappy face.
And keep that borderline toxicpositivity.
And I rapidly realized that'snot the way it's not going to
(16:22):
sustain like that.
And yeah, that's one way tolead, but it's not realistic.
And the problem with that ispeople on the front line who are
very smart clinicians, mindyou, they're scientists in their
own way.
(16:42):
They figure that out.
Like, no,
Speaker 02 (16:45):
it's not.
And we have to listen to that.
Absolutely.
What's next for you?
Speaker 01 (16:50):
Yeah, I'm in it.
So I'm also an author.
I wrote a memoir burning out onthe COVID front lines.
And I donate all of my proceedsin my story to the Dr.
Lorna Breen Heroes Foundation.
I'm going continuing to usewriting as a tool for advocacy
and social media.
And I'm hoping to start apodcast myself on mental health,
burnout, vulnerability that cannot only apply to healthcare
(17:12):
workers, but other professionstoo.
I have two school age kids inpublic school, and I will say
this, teachers are just as mucha frontline in a very complex
system as healthcare workers.
Speaker 02 (17:23):
No doubt about
Speaker 01 (17:23):
that.
So
Speaker 02 (17:24):
that's the plan.
Where can people find yourbook?
Speaker 01 (17:26):
Thank you.
On any major book platform,they can find my book, Burning
out on the COVID front lines.
And I also have a website,devaldisimd.com.
Speaker 02 (17:35):
And I'm assuming you're available for speeches.
Speaker 01 (17:38):
Absolutely.
Always open to anything, acollaboration.
I think, as I told thismorning, as a platform in a
place like this, you findlike-minded people and we
continue to need theselike-minded people to grow.
So always open to it.
Speaker 02 (17:51):
Well, with the time we have left, what haven't we
talked about that's on yourheart?
Speaker 01 (17:55):
Yeah, good question.
The biggest thing on my heartis I saw health care in a
different eye when my dad passedaway last year 15 months ago
when i was on the sidelines withhim and it's the grief journey
is very complex but what i seeis i had the most respected
doctors at the bedside who werei could tell were burnt out with
(18:16):
the way they were communicatingand what worries me for all of
us who are going to be utilizersof the health care system how
are we going to have the besthealth care system it's we have
the healthiest and best healthcare workers and we need to
really focus on that and thework you're doing with advent
health and this coalition andthe work we're all doing
together, I'm hopeful andoptimistic that's what's going
to help get us there.
Speaker 02 (18:37):
I'm going to ask one more question.
I'm going to pivot off of yourpersonal experience.
Grief is a big deal.
How have you struggled throughthat?
Speaker 01 (18:47):
I'm struggling as we speak.
I really want to know thetruth.
I will say this.
I was trained as a doctor thatthe first year of grief is the
hardest because you have all thefirsts from birthdays,
holidays.
I will say this.
We hit the the first year markand months 13 through 16 have
almost been harder because itfeels very real now.
Like this is very permanent andthere's good days and bad days.
(19:11):
And yes, grief is not a linearjourney.
You've heard that, but it's sotrue.
So I wish I could have aconversation with you and said,
I figured out the grief and it'sfine, but I have not.
And it's a struggle in a goodand bad way.
I will say that, you know, welike to honor my dad the way the
best way with my kids they gotto know him but we talk about
(19:34):
him often but it's tough griefis very tough and it's I will
say this he passed away at thehospital where I work and there
are days when I walk by one ofthe rooms he was in and I just
pause and kind of jolt myselflike whoa that feels a little
yucky
Speaker 02 (19:48):
well I appreciate you sharing that and knowing
what my wife lost her mom withinthe last couple of years and we
see it every day and one of thethings that she did and she at
Licensed Mental Health Counselorwas find a group, get engaged
with a group that...
A grief
Speaker 01 (20:05):
support group.
Yeah.
You know, that's so important.
My mom, who's here on this tripin Nashville with us, we
brought her with us just to gether out a little bit.
And she's very active and helpsmy kids, but the grief is a
major...
In that month, 13 through 16,really feeling it.
So it's almost like a sign foryou to say that because we're
getting her connected as wespeak with the grief support
group because it's such a lonelyjourney.
(20:27):
And, you know, David...
I'm not sure if you've heard ofhim.
I learned, you know him, thegrief, he's a grief expert.
And I'm going to use one of hisquotes as we talk about this,
that we all come into this worldin the middle of someone's
movie and we leave the world inthe middle of someone's movie
and the movie never finishes.
Isn't that wild?
(20:48):
I know.
Doesn't that get you?
Speaker 02 (20:49):
If you have one before we wrap up, is there an
anecdote, a conversation, anexperience that you've had over
the last couple of years?
if you've done this, thatstands out as a marker for you
to the value of the work thatyou've been doing with your
physicians and even the peopleimpacted by the work you do with
(21:12):
the physicians.
Speaker 01 (21:14):
I think it's been a series of things.
I think it's kind of individualevents when I hear from that
nurse or that physicianindividually come to me and
somehow get connected with meand openly talk about what the
issue is and nobody's backingthem up and they feel very
isolated.
And I'm not there necessarilyto say, yeah, you're right.
(21:36):
What you did didn't happen.
Or yes, it was an adverseoutcome, but let me back you up.
And this is what you need todo.
And this is how I'm going to, Iwent through this.
This is what happens.
And I a hundred percentvalidate what you're feeling
because the bigger system, notEmory or wherever this, the
system's not designed to takecare of us.
And when I have thoseconversations and it's some with
somebody, let's just put itthis way.
Somebody who I always felt issomebody I would never be able
(21:58):
to relate to as a friend.
Or I always felt they'resuperior because they're a
specialist of a specialist andthe brightest mind.
And it's like, what do theywant to do with me?
And I have that bond.
And to your point, 15 yearsago, what I've ever thought I
would have some connection withthem.
That's when I feel like, okay,you know what, this work is
worth it.
And somebody's listening.
So
Speaker 02 (22:19):
yeah, the human connection
Speaker 01 (22:20):
is, it is in this, this area.
It's one of those things thatpeople are so scared sometimes
to even talk like a fire.
But once you open up thefloodgates, and that's why I
chose to be open with with mystory.
Once you open that floodgate,it's like, okay,
Speaker 02 (22:33):
it's time.
It is.
This has been a pleasure.
Speaker 01 (22:36):
Likewise.
I mean, you're so easy to talkto.
Thank you.
Well,
Speaker 02 (22:40):
so are you.
And I know that our listenersare going to benefit from
everything you've talked aboutand the work that you've done.
Thank you for committing to itand spending this time with us
today.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 00 (22:55):
Thank you for tuning in to the Well-Being Connector
podcast, brought to you by theCoalition for Physician and APP
Well-Being.
The Well-Being Connector offersinsightful conversations with
healthcare professionals devotedto fostering wholeness within
their organizations.
Each episode delves deep intothe holistic approach to
well-being, underscoring theimportance of physical, mental,
(23:16):
social, and spiritual health.
For more episodes, visit ourwebsite at www.bethejoy.org
podcast.
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