July 23, 2025 • 34 mins
The Valley girls talk with Psychiatrist Dr. Scott Murphy about narcissicistic personality disorder. Do we all have a little bit of that?? Find out.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:21):
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(00:43):
Medical Information with Value Health.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hello. Hello, we are back with our Valley Girls and
TMI Talking Medical Information. I've got my Valley Girl Jess,
my friends, and I got my Valley girl Melanie. Hi everybody,
and of course I am your host. I am gen
C a part of Dave and Jen you know on
Q one hundred and TCR. But today our TMI talking
(01:07):
Medical Information podcast with Valley Health is taking us into
the world of psychiatry and we are here with doctor
Scott Murphy. How are you ser.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Doing all right?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So we are actually going to discuss a very specific
topic with you today, which is narcissism. And Melanie, you
were the one who emailed me about this and I
was like, is she digging at me? What is happening?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I was not taking it you.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
I think it's just been such a buzz, you know
a lot of people have talked about it and kind
of getting a better definition of what it is. And
to be honest, as I was reading over some things,
I was like, oh, I kind of recognize some of
these symptoms. But so it's interesting to think about, you know,
what the degrees are and what it really means, and
maybe even doctor Murphy, how we can interact with somebody
(01:52):
who we think might have narcissistic tendencies or maybe even worse,
how we diminish our own narcissistic tendency.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
That's hard assistant.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
It's a lot of us is.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
So I guess we should start with what is narcissism.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Okay, so when we use it in the clinical sense,
what we're talking about usually is narcissistic personality disorder. And
so then the starting point is what is a personality disorder?
A personality disorder is a sort of defined as a
pervasive pattern of behaviors that structure how a person thinks
(02:31):
of themselves and also how they interact with other people.
And it's entrenched in the sense that it's chronic and
fairly fixed throughout the lifespan, in the absence of, say,
interventions like therapy and self discovery and things like this.
So a personality disorder can have different subtypes. Narcissism is
one of those subtypes, and it's one that tends to
(02:51):
carry with it a sense of self importance. They'll use
the word grandiosity, sense that one's needs take precedence over
those of other people, and a sort of a need
for always thinking one is the best or being told
one is the best, and like nothing short of the
best is ever acceptable.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Okay, well then I'm good.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Now, I'm not sure I feel that way very often,
that I'm all the best.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
In yeah, I'm on the opposite end of the day
saying I constantly think I'm not good enough, I had
to say.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
But so, I mean, if you have a friend that
you or someone you know that thinks they're all that
toa baga chips or is that what we're talking about,
or they're just over all that bagga chips, it's a
chocolate chip cookie, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
There are certainly plenty of amazing people in the world,
that's for sure. So I think that often mental health
in general can be sort of we will use it
sometimes to try to understand the other people around us,
and especially in the domain of personality, it's more useful
for trying to understand ourselves. And it's useful to understand
(04:00):
someone else's pattern of behavior, that is for sure, And
there's ways to learn how to interact with people with
certain patterns. But labels themselves can sort of get thrown around,
and Melanie and I've talked about this before too, in
such a way that our assigning a label to someone
is itself kind of a harmful thing, right, So, you know,
(04:22):
all of these terms are they exist as a framework
for getting people help that they both want and need, right,
And so if someone has a diagnosis of a personality disorder. Generally,
that also means they're working with a therapist. They're working
with someone on sort of learning different patterns so that
they can try to make their lives better and the
(04:43):
lives of those around them, but not in the interest
of like so and so has this personality disorder and therefore, yes, that.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Just kind of label them that way. I mean, it's
really like, like you said, if they are already I
then they probably are trying to get helpful.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
That's exactly right. Yeah, it feels like.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
The word narcissism is like the trending hot topic right now.
It's like everybody's throwing it up or they're toxic. Do
you see that a lot in your practice? Are you
hearing that a lot? Or can you tell us why
we might be hearing.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
It a lot?
Speaker 5 (05:17):
I've got a few guesses. So, for example, all of
us are under various types of stress, and a lot
of that stress we will tend to externalize. And so
externalizing is sort of looking around you for causes of
distress that you're experiencing. Right, if we can assign that
distress to someone around us, that takes it off of
(05:40):
us and so, but that feels good to like relieve
oneself of the burden of that and doing so using
a like a label is actually sort of a shortcut
to doing that. And so I think that there's been
a lot of talk on the internet and you too,
(06:00):
videos and things and sort of people will talk about
this pathological narcissist and right, and people hear those and
they go, oh my gosh, So I've had such trouble
in my life, and I think it's because so and
so is a pathological narcissist. And now I know the
word for it, right, yeah, and so and so once
you have the word, it's it feels good. You're like,
(06:22):
I've got a name for this. It's now under control,
which reduces your anxiety, right, Right. And so we just
as humans, we're always looking for ways to reduce our
anxiety and increase our quality of life and our understanding
of ourselves and how we're sort of proceeding through the world.
Labels can often serve that purpose, and different ones trend
(06:44):
in different decades.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Right. So absolutely, do you go.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
On TikTok and you find all these things, You're like, ah,
oh ah.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
That's what it is. Yes, this is the answer.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
So if you feel like someone is a narcissist, and
at what point does it become sort of interous or
detrimental to you personally? And how can what steps can
you take to I don't know, disassociate, rein it in
kind of, you know, mitigate that personality on your life.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yes, now we're talking mitigate. That was the word. That
was the word. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
So while we can't decide what other people's personalities are
going to be, we can make choices about how we
respond to them, right, And so that's an excellent way
to think through the question. So narcissism there, there's all
it's just you know, one of those domains where there's
all kinds of theories.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Right.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
But if you're looking at sort of the cognitive cognitive
behavioral therapists perspective, and that would be like Aaron Beck
and that sort of CBT school of thought, they will
they will start this as a life narrative in childhood.
And so you have someone who probably is in a
fairly sensitive position and tends toward thinking badly of themselves.
(08:02):
And then you might have a parental figure who they
only can get positive connection with when they are excelling.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Right.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
And so in other words, in order for people to
think anything other than terrible things about me, I need
to be the best all the time, right, knowing that.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Bad for the narcissist nat right, Yeah, now I don't
dislike them extremely exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
The thing though, it is a mental health disorder, and
so it started when you were a kid, start a
young age anyways.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
Yeah, and so when you when you put it in
that perspective, a lot of the other pieces make sense.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Right.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
So why does someone need to be constantly getting feedback
that elevates them, sort of puts them on a pedestal,
makes them seem like the best. That's because anything less
than that feels like I'm nothing, I'm worthless. And so
understanding that can also tell you when it can become dangerous. Okay,
(09:01):
so when can it become dangerous? Well, people with narcissism
can get violent, and not just physically violent, but emotionally violent,
and so there can develop patterns of abuse and so forth.
And that's true of many. I mean, there's this not
like narcissism is all abuse, right, but like that's just
a thing that can happen, and it can happen when
that vulnerability comes into play. So when we say for some,
(09:27):
for example, set limits with someone and that they they
feel that as an injury to this sort of self
esteem structure that they've built up, and now they're back
to being vulnerable and you know, a kid again emotionally,
because well, if I'm not the best and you're insisting
(09:47):
that I'm not the best, then I'm the worst, And
so now it's dangerous, right doesn't.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
That break your heart out?
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Now I feel bad for thinking badly as well anybody
or trying to put a label on it or out of.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
We can increase empathy in the world, and we're doing
good work, right exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
That only helps to understand it more though.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
It does it It gives you a new perspective if you
are encountering someone like this, Okay, so you have empathy
for them, but sometimes even with empathy, if they continue
to do these have these behaviors that make you feel
a certain way. Are there things that you can do
as a person or how can you address a narcissist?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Is there a secret.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Technique to I don't know, Like I said, mitigate the
effects and the stress on your life.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
And this isn't just applicable to narcissism, but I would
give you an example from Judith Beck. So, Judith Beck
is one of the more prominent cognitive behavioral therapists in
the country. Her dad was Aaron Beck, who wrote the
initial books on CBT and all that. And I saw
a talk that she did in what she was addressing narcissism.
This was a few years back. So she had a
(10:51):
patient who recognized narcissism in himself and wanted to work
on it, which is great, it's an awesome first step, right,
And when he the way she tells the story basically,
so he comes in for his appointment and just the
nicest clothing, the very expensive bag, everything is polished. It's amazing,
(11:14):
like meticulous, right, highly expensive stuff. And so she recognizes
what is happening, which is I'm establishing I am the best.
I have the best things, right, which is a defense
against being of thinking that you're the worst.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Right.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
And so she totally disarms him because he says, you know,
this is other my travel bag. This isn't my good bag,
but it's like some fancy thing, right. So she says, well,
you know, I just keep everything in this paper.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Bag like this, right. So is this radical.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
Humility that she brings into the room, which the way
the patient described to her later as they continued to
work was it felt like you had totally disarmed me,
Like I had all of this paraphernalia almost like it
defense system, and you demonstrated to me that it wasn't necessary, Like, yeah,
you know you're a you're a psychologist, and you you're
(12:09):
carrying your things in a paper bag. So you know,
it's like, I don't even know I can't impress this person, right,
right exactly.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Oh, that's kind of cool because in one little move,
all of a sudden that none of that stuff was important.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Right, It's get down to what's really important.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
That's pretty cool.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
And so that's you know, that's not guaranteed to work
every time. Nothing is right. When you recognize that someone
basically needs to be you need to set boundaries with someone.
It's it's very important to see if they can express
things explicitly instead of just implying. And so if the
implication as someone comes in the room is well, I'm
(12:46):
the best. I need you to recognize I'm the best.
I have the most expensive things, right, then you can
bring those words in instead of just letting it sit
on the table. Sure, and say I noticed you have
really nice things. That's cool. Good for you. I carry
my stuff in a paper bag. You know, It's like
now it's explicit, it's in the room and it can
(13:06):
be talked about. It's not this sort of hidden message.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
It's like just like you know, talking about the elephant
in the room, like, yo, come on, light out here,
and I mean you're going to therapy for a reason.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Right, let's lay it out.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
And that's s's the frame, right, because he's already there
to work on this.
Speaker 6 (13:20):
Can we go back for just a second to parenting styles.
You mentioned about how sometimes it starts as a young child. Sure,
what kind of parenting styles might cause this or bring
it into play?
Speaker 5 (13:31):
Okay, so classically, what you're going to have our parents
who are relatively distant, because kids need affection from their
parents one hundred percent, and they will essentially acquire behaviors
that get them that, right, and if that's a chronic
state of affairs, those will become entrenched. So that that's
(13:52):
just kind of how a person behaves. Like if if
a person can only get positive attention from a parent,
if they bring home that first place trophy, if they're
you know, getting the biggest scholarship. If they're winning all
of the awards and and all of the athletic events,
then they're going to feel like given that they're they're
(14:15):
getting nothing and less they're achieving that, then they must
be nothing unless they're achieving that, right, And so recognizing accomplishments,
not not demanding that people always give first place and everything. Celebrating, celebrate, celebrate,
celebrate everything, right, Like your kids showed up and ran
(14:36):
a race. That's hard, that's that's definitely not sitting on
the couch, right, So I don't care what place they
got in, they got out and they ran a race,
you know what I mean. So celebrating that it helps
to sort of smooth this out and to help help
someone recognize that there are other ways to access that caring.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Right, if you're raised by a narcissist, does that kind
of make you one?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
It doesn't have to.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
It could predispose, right, So maybe that they were under
similar circumstances growing up too, and so you know, but
those patterns are not inevitable learning about something, working on
it in therapy, reading about it, finding ways to sort
of say, oh, this is a pattern that I might
(15:22):
have because of like the narcissist stuff that I had
going on. Maybe if I find a different approach, then
my kids don't reexperience that, right, kind.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Of like breaking that generational curse? You got it, you know,
that's what That's what I keep seeing on Instagram.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
I feel like too. But then as a parent, you
kind of worry that am I over celebrating? Am I
not giving them a real dose of reality? Like, Okay,
this is going to sound harsh, but I mean that
wasn't awesome. I didn't like the way you did that
because I don't like that behavior. I didn't like how
you acted here. I mean, how do you kind of
negotiate that to I don't know, give them perspective and
(16:02):
have a fully rounded, wonderful, fabulous human.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Go answer that.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
For me, doctor, you want me to solve yes?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
And what is the meaning of life?
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Right after that and go What you're describing sounds like
setting setting limits and boundaries unacceptable versus unacceptable behavior versus
setting arbitrary boundaries on giving someone praise based on their
degree of accomplishment. That's two different questions, right, So, you know,
(16:32):
if your kid came home from school and wrecked your
whole house, right, and then went to the bedroom and
and slammed the door, like after breaking everything. It's not
going to be like you did great, not.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Awesome, But I got to tell you you killed it.
Speaker 5 (16:50):
You really did, so that that's a different thing. Right,
So that's setting a limit on a on a destructive behavior.
And what we're talking more about is recognizing, recognizing accomplishment
rather than say please don't do this. It's recognizing how
(17:13):
often can I praise? Right, and what to re a
positive rapport can I develop? And every excuse you can
build it? Right, If you know you made a cool
crayon drawing at preschool, it's going on the fridge, right,
we're celebrating that. Right, you made a cool crayon drawing
all over the wall at home when you were told
(17:36):
not to so much. Ye're probably we're probably going to
help me clean this up.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Right, guess what you get to learn something new? We're
going to clean that's right. We do talk to I
have a ten year old almost eleven year old stepdaughter,
and we talked to her a lot about just effort,
you know, just if you're trying, honey, that's all we
ask you. You know, Oh, well you didn't get straight
a's all year long. Oh you made one beat, honey.
(18:05):
The fact that you're giving it you're all and that
you're doing your very best, that's what we want you
to do. As long as you're giving it your all,
then we're happy with you.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
And they probably it sounds like this would already be
a kid who knows to challenge themselves. They're already getting
the rest A's right, So like they already see that
be and they're like, I could probably work on that,
Like they already got that lesson. You know, they don't
need additional right.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
We've talked a lot about kids, let's talk about I
hear a lot of buzz about narcissism and relationships, Like,
so you're dating and all of a sudden, you feel
like this person is not exactly what you were thinking,
Like it just becomes I don't know, more of an
abusive relationship. They just put you down. There's love bombing.
So let's talk about that. What all is that? And
(18:52):
when you look at your relationship, how do you figure
out that this is not good for me? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Sure?
Speaker 5 (18:57):
When you get into relationship to thinking about different types
of attachment that people have to one another and there's
a few different models of attachment. There's anxious attachment, and
anxious attachment is kind of I really need to be
in a relationship and I'm constantly in fear of losing
that relationship, and so I sort of bend over backwards
(19:20):
to make this person happy because I'm afraid of losing them. Right, So,
a person with that attachment style can be quite vulnerable
to getting attached to someone who's on the more narcissistic
side of things. Another attachment style is avoidant, and this
is going to be more the person who they want
a relationship, but as soon as it starts to become
close or serious, they create distance because there's this intrinsic
(19:44):
fear of getting too close, losing independence, those kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Right.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
So, the way that for example, narcissism might play out
in this is if someone is very anxiously attached, that's
their attachment style. There's nothing wrong with that, and they
find so one who you use the word love bomb,
who basically can say I'm going to make everything awesome
and positive for you right now, day one, Right, this
(20:10):
is great.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Like you don't even know me that well, do you
really want to make it that great here we are crazy,
you don't.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Know, Yeah, very spoiled right now?
Speaker 5 (20:19):
Yeah yeah, And so that creates an expectation from the
anxiously attached person that like, well, this must be that,
this is the standard, this is what I've been looking for,
and then maybe it dissipates over time and now we're
seeking it again.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Well, how do you seek it again?
Speaker 5 (20:39):
You're constantly sort of ingratiating yourself to this person, and
you can get kind of locked in that repetitive pattern.
Getting back to sort of how to deal with that
in a healthy way that keeps you safe is really
the most important thing, and that can come down to insight,
which is just having realized on what's really happening. And
(21:00):
sometimes it's hard for us to do that from in
the mix. So having a good friend, a friend who
is willing to say, hey, look, this is not as
great as you think it is. Yea, and I think
you know that, but you're having a hard time like
recognizing it from inside, right. So having that kind of
feedback and trusting it from those around who you do trust, friends, family,
(21:21):
other people who have eyes on the relationship. And if
it's in a dating situation where it's kind of not
a long term commitment necessarily. Yet then it's good to
sort of understand yourself well enough to say, these are
my limits, and if you cross them like that, we're
just not right for each other. So this isn't going
(21:43):
to go any further, right, And it's okay to sort
of come from that integrity and say, here is how
I operate as a person in a relationship. I like
to have secure commitment. I like to have not always
feel like I'm walking on eggshells. And if we can't
do that, then this problem is it going to work?
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Well?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Gosh, the person you're describing sounds so confident, and I
just who is that?
Speaker 3 (22:07):
I know? Right?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I mean everything you say sounds just like this is
exactly what you should think and you should set these
healthy boundaries. And you're absolutely.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, it's hard to do hard, right, Like you.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Put your money where your mouth is. It's hard.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (22:21):
So, and this is what I have sometimes a hard
time convincing patients that something like therapy can be right
for them because they'll say, well, I already know all
that stuff. I read a book about that, I saw
that on TikTok, you know, And then and I'm like,
I'm like, here's the thing though, right, someone can tell
you how to ride a bicycle, but until you work
(22:41):
with it and practice it and keep doing it and
get yourself into different situations and try it out, and
oh when I get my speed going up as I'm
coming down a hill if it's rainy outside, Like, gaining
that experience in practice under guidance is where the skill
building comes from. And that's the point of therapy. It's
not you can learn what you're going to learn in
(23:02):
therapy on day one. That's not a problem. It's practicing it.
It's watching for you know, the speed bumps. It's watching
for opportunities to say, oh, we're learning a different lesson today, right,
And gaining that confidence that you described, like you you
refer to that as like who is this person?
Speaker 3 (23:21):
This confident person?
Speaker 5 (23:22):
That's that's that's like a slow target, right, That's that's
a long term goal of therapy.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I want to come to you.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
I'm gonna make an appointment, and there's the goal. Doctor Murphy,
we talked about love bombing. Can you talk to us
just a little bit about trauma bond.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
So trauma bond in the sense that when people go
through a shared experience of trauma, they sort of create
an attachment to one another.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
Sure, that's definitely a survival instinct for human beings. I mean,
if you if you think of in the long run,
if if we're out in the woods and there's a
bear and we have to lean on each other for
teamwork to escape the bear, Well, now we feel like
a team, whether we just met or not. Right, And
so that sort of shared traumatic experience can create a
(24:15):
bond between people that maybe that wouldn't have been there
and maybe doesn't have a solid a basis as if
they had sort of known each other over time and
so forth, but nonetheless can form the foundation for a
solid relationship, just kind of depending on where things go afterward.
I don't know if that's the exact topic you were
getting after sort of.
Speaker 6 (24:35):
I think part of that is I've heard, probably in
the TikTok world, honestly like that some narcissists will seek
people and try to trauma bond with them to create
that space.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
So now we're sort of dipping over from the narcissism
side probably into the sociopath side.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Okay, okay, okay, that's done.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
Okay, Yeah, So antisocial personality disorder is another variant of
personality disorder, and one of the key ingredients there is
a sort of lack of empathy, right, And so this
comes down to literal neurological function, like there are parts
of our brain that are responsive to seeing what other
(25:18):
people are experiencing and feeling some of that that we
call empathy, and those don't work in some people. And
so then a lot of automatic responses we have like
oh my gosh, you look like you're having such a
tough time. I really feel bad for you, and we
sincerely mean that because we're feeling what they're feeling. We
(25:39):
imagine not having that it's like being blind to that entirely.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
Now, the thing becomes how do you then interact with
other people without that component, And a lot of times
it can take the form of things like manipulation.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:55):
So this can be someone who thinks in terms of
what they need and they don't really think much beyond that, right,
And so other people become useful for meeting their needs.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
It's like a tool to them and yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
It's just what you need to get through. Yeah, oh man.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
And so if a learned behavior is if I act
in such and such a way, then someone will fairly
quickly bond to me and then they will bend over
backwards to make me happy. I'm just going to do
that again. It worked last time.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, if that's the behavior you understand and it works,
then yeah, you're going to continue to do it. That's
a very place to be very through.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
But doctor Murphy, we've talked about kids, and we've talked
about relationships. Let's talk about coworkers because a lot of
people have to deal with narcissists on just various levels
and locations in their lives and applications and stuff like that.
So if you have a coworker you think is a narcissist,
is there a way to deal with them and set
boundaries even if they're in charge, like of course bost Town.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
You know, right, So one good approach that's that's I
think fairly well evidence based, and some of it comes
from a therapy approach called DBT. Dictical behavioral therapy is
focus on the facts. Focus on the facts kind of
works like this. We get channels of information from other people.
Those include body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, and
(27:20):
the words they say. Right, But if you're in a
work relationship, you may have a pattern developed with someone
where they might say one thing with their words, but
they're giving you lots of other messages through body language,
like dismissiveness, like looking down on you, things like this, right,
(27:40):
like taking advantage of you. Oh, the work you've done
in this is really good, really.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Good that face.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
You know the words I said, but think about the
words I said without all of that extra you said,
I did a really good job. So you can always
choose to interact with someone on the bay of the
words they said, rather than reading beyond all of those
extra channels they're giving you. They're giving you that, So
there's also plausible deniability. Right, I just told him you
(28:10):
did a good job. That's all I said.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
And I don't want to.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
I get it, you don't have anger management issues. That's
another podcast, so we'll another episode that's okay, literally that
you did such a great job and all see you suck.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
I mean that's what I've read.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, And so make people make people
say the words, right, So, oh thanks, you said I
did a good job.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
I like that, repeating it back to them.
Speaker 5 (28:39):
You're not hearing me, I said, you did such a
good job, Like, I know, thanks, that's a great compliment.
You did a terrible job. Oh you have critique, talk
me through it.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
What have I done?
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Now they have to put words to it, they have
to make it explicit. And now you're interacting on the
basis of facts rather than sort of read all of
this other content.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Okay, I like this, I wonder like that. That's hope.
That's going to help a lot of people. For real,
I've never done I want to do this so bad
now at work. Also, I have an idea.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Okay, next episode, they've all lost their jobs and it's
my fault.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Podcast is no longer affiliated with anybody. We're doing it
just for funes. So, but there is like you said,
through therapy, a narcissist can change. Oh sure, okay, so
if they do the work. So but what if they
don't want to change?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
What if they they.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
May not even realize? Well, in that that may be
a possibility to aren't they perfect to begin with?
Speaker 6 (29:40):
Right?
Speaker 3 (29:41):
That can make it hard?
Speaker 5 (29:42):
Right, it's hard to come and ask for help if
asking for help must mean I'm completely worthless, Right, because
if I'm the best one.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Chink in your armor, your armor.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
No tolerance for one chink in the armor, so that
that can be tough, and that does prevent people from
seeking care of at the time. If you know someone
and you have empathy for them, and you care for
them and you recognize these patterns, it's actually helpful to
try to encourage them to go to therapy. But it
needs to be in a very non accusative way. It's
(30:15):
not like, you know, I've figured out everything that's wrong,
and it's that you're a narcissist and I know a
therapist who can fix you, so you're going, you know,
like that is not a great approach, just kidding change
in plans, but to say instead, you know, hey, we've
(30:37):
had we've had our ups and downs for sure, and
we can probably both recognize that. I think maybe we
both could benefit from from seeing a therapist, and we
could either go as a couple or we could see
your own therapist, but maybe they can help us get
some insight into what's going on here. And assuming that
a person is invested in the relationship and that you've
come at it from that non confrontational, like not defensive
(31:02):
and not accusatory posture, but instead is like, hey, let's
cooperate on improving things here. They might say, yes, they
might right, but there's no guarantees about that. Sure, but
when they do, it can go good places, such great tips.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I think this is fantastic, and it's good to understand
a narcissist a little bit better because I really do
feel almost sorry if I were to see somebody like,
I'm like, oh, who hurt you? And can I hug you?
You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Definitely a different perspective rather than just being angry at
the way they treat you and make you feel right,
So it's definitely you have to find that empathy for
someone who can be really difficult.
Speaker 6 (31:40):
I think we also learned you can't put a label
on everybody because not everybody falls under those specifically.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
That's right, really good.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Well, all of these personality disorders are essentially overactive versions
of personality traits that all of us have, right, We
need a certain amount of narcissistic flavor in our personality
to have things like self confidence, Like you have to
be able to say I got pretty good at this,
Like I'm not going to be the best, but I
got pretty good at it, and I'm confident in my
skill set. Right, But if that were to like the
(32:10):
medical term is hypertrophy, like to get way too strong
and start to overshadow everything, then maybe it's grandiose, maybe
it's narcissist, right, but it's still it can be in moderation,
quite a healthy trade.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Sure, Okay, yeah, because you do need to have that
self confidence.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
So that does make sense if you look at like
narcissistic tendencies, you're like, oh, I kind of do that.
Oh I have a little bit of that. We can
all we all should have a little we should y'all should.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
Have you read through all the personality disorders and you'll
see a little bits and pieces of yourself all over
the plaast And that's true of all of us, right right,
But that doesn't mean everybody has all these personality disorders.
It means that those are just human personalities and it
becomes a disorder when it becomes a problem, like it's
affecting their lives in negative ways, it's causing a difficulties
(33:00):
with their family and their work relationships and becomes something
they want to address in therapy.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Well, my goodness, that's fantastic. Really, this is good to
know you have given us such good information today, by
the way, Yes, and helped us to understand it a
little bit better too, because you were throwing around some words,
but then you gave us.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
An example totally got it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Well, so I think that's all the questions that we
have today because you answered spectacularly and we really learned
a lot, and we really appreciate you coming on the
podcast today to help us learn a little bit more
about this, and we do hope to have you on
later for some more personality disorders.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Let's pick a few. Sure, that's fun. I'll come back, noe.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
I mean, your insight has been fabulous. So thank you
so much, doctor Murphy.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
You're welcome you so much. And so that was doctor
Scott Murphy, who is a psychiatrist here at Valley Health.
And if you do need help, if you do want
to find a provider, you can go to Valleyhealth dot org.
There is a full list of them on the website.
I go to the website like once a week, by
the way, I look for new people.
Speaker 6 (33:58):
Talk you for helping us with our matrix.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
But yeah, so this is tm I talking medical information
with Valley Health and my Valley girls. Jess Staples and
Melanie Schaeffer. Listen, we are coming back. We're gonna be
back once a month now with this podcast. We think
we've got some good information. We've got some new providers
lined up as well, so we're gonna bring all the
information to you on TMI talking Medical Information with Valley Health.
(34:24):
We'll catch you next month.
The content shared on this podcast is for informational and
educational purposes only and should not be gets strewed as
medical advice. While we strive to provide accurate and up
to date information, the host and producers make no representations
or warranties regarding the accuracy, reliability, or completeness of the
information presented. Medical information this constantly evolving, and what is
discussed may not reflect the most current research or guidelines.
This podcast is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
(00:21):
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or
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regarding a medical condition or treatment. If you are experiencing
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and producers are not liable for any decisions or actions
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(00:43):
Medical Information with Value Health.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hello. Hello, we are back with our Valley Girls and
TMI Talking Medical Information. I've got my Valley Girl Jess,
my friends, and I got my Valley girl Melanie. Hi everybody,
and of course I am your host. I am gen
C a part of Dave and Jen you know on
Q one hundred and TCR. But today our TMI talking
(01:07):
Medical Information podcast with Valley Health is taking us into
the world of psychiatry and we are here with doctor
Scott Murphy. How are you ser.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Doing all right?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So we are actually going to discuss a very specific
topic with you today, which is narcissism. And Melanie, you
were the one who emailed me about this and I
was like, is she digging at me? What is happening?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I was not taking it you.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
I think it's just been such a buzz, you know
a lot of people have talked about it and kind
of getting a better definition of what it is. And
to be honest, as I was reading over some things,
I was like, oh, I kind of recognize some of
these symptoms. But so it's interesting to think about, you know,
what the degrees are and what it really means, and
maybe even doctor Murphy, how we can interact with somebody
(01:52):
who we think might have narcissistic tendencies or maybe even worse,
how we diminish our own narcissistic tendency.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
That's hard assistant.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
It's a lot of us is.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
So I guess we should start with what is narcissism.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Okay, so when we use it in the clinical sense,
what we're talking about usually is narcissistic personality disorder. And
so then the starting point is what is a personality disorder?
A personality disorder is a sort of defined as a
pervasive pattern of behaviors that structure how a person thinks
(02:31):
of themselves and also how they interact with other people.
And it's entrenched in the sense that it's chronic and
fairly fixed throughout the lifespan, in the absence of, say,
interventions like therapy and self discovery and things like this.
So a personality disorder can have different subtypes. Narcissism is
one of those subtypes, and it's one that tends to
(02:51):
carry with it a sense of self importance. They'll use
the word grandiosity, sense that one's needs take precedence over
those of other people, and a sort of a need
for always thinking one is the best or being told
one is the best, and like nothing short of the
best is ever acceptable.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Okay, well then I'm good.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Now, I'm not sure I feel that way very often,
that I'm all the best.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
In yeah, I'm on the opposite end of the day
saying I constantly think I'm not good enough, I had
to say.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
But so, I mean, if you have a friend that
you or someone you know that thinks they're all that
toa baga chips or is that what we're talking about,
or they're just over all that bagga chips, it's a
chocolate chip cookie, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
There are certainly plenty of amazing people in the world,
that's for sure. So I think that often mental health
in general can be sort of we will use it
sometimes to try to understand the other people around us,
and especially in the domain of personality, it's more useful
for trying to understand ourselves. And it's useful to understand
(04:00):
someone else's pattern of behavior, that is for sure, And
there's ways to learn how to interact with people with
certain patterns. But labels themselves can sort of get thrown around,
and Melanie and I've talked about this before too, in
such a way that our assigning a label to someone
is itself kind of a harmful thing, right, So, you know,
(04:22):
all of these terms are they exist as a framework
for getting people help that they both want and need, right,
And so if someone has a diagnosis of a personality disorder. Generally,
that also means they're working with a therapist. They're working
with someone on sort of learning different patterns so that
they can try to make their lives better and the
(04:43):
lives of those around them, but not in the interest
of like so and so has this personality disorder and therefore, yes, that.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Just kind of label them that way. I mean, it's
really like, like you said, if they are already I
then they probably are trying to get helpful.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
That's exactly right. Yeah, it feels like.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
The word narcissism is like the trending hot topic right now.
It's like everybody's throwing it up or they're toxic. Do
you see that a lot in your practice? Are you
hearing that a lot? Or can you tell us why
we might be hearing.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
It a lot?
Speaker 5 (05:17):
I've got a few guesses. So, for example, all of
us are under various types of stress, and a lot
of that stress we will tend to externalize. And so
externalizing is sort of looking around you for causes of
distress that you're experiencing. Right, if we can assign that
distress to someone around us, that takes it off of
(05:40):
us and so, but that feels good to like relieve
oneself of the burden of that and doing so using
a like a label is actually sort of a shortcut
to doing that. And so I think that there's been
a lot of talk on the internet and you too,
(06:00):
videos and things and sort of people will talk about
this pathological narcissist and right, and people hear those and
they go, oh my gosh, So I've had such trouble
in my life, and I think it's because so and
so is a pathological narcissist. And now I know the
word for it, right, yeah, and so and so once
you have the word, it's it feels good. You're like,
(06:22):
I've got a name for this. It's now under control,
which reduces your anxiety, right, Right. And so we just
as humans, we're always looking for ways to reduce our
anxiety and increase our quality of life and our understanding
of ourselves and how we're sort of proceeding through the world.
Labels can often serve that purpose, and different ones trend
(06:44):
in different decades.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Right. So absolutely, do you go.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
On TikTok and you find all these things, You're like, ah,
oh ah.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
That's what it is. Yes, this is the answer.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
So if you feel like someone is a narcissist, and
at what point does it become sort of interous or
detrimental to you personally? And how can what steps can
you take to I don't know, disassociate, rein it in
kind of, you know, mitigate that personality on your life.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yes, now we're talking mitigate. That was the word. That
was the word. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
So while we can't decide what other people's personalities are
going to be, we can make choices about how we
respond to them, right, And so that's an excellent way
to think through the question. So narcissism there, there's all
it's just you know, one of those domains where there's
all kinds of theories.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Right.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
But if you're looking at sort of the cognitive cognitive
behavioral therapists perspective, and that would be like Aaron Beck
and that sort of CBT school of thought, they will
they will start this as a life narrative in childhood.
And so you have someone who probably is in a
fairly sensitive position and tends toward thinking badly of themselves.
(08:02):
And then you might have a parental figure who they
only can get positive connection with when they are excelling.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Right.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
And so in other words, in order for people to
think anything other than terrible things about me, I need
to be the best all the time, right, knowing that.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Bad for the narcissist nat right, Yeah, now I don't
dislike them extremely exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
The thing though, it is a mental health disorder, and
so it started when you were a kid, start a
young age anyways.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
Yeah, and so when you when you put it in
that perspective, a lot of the other pieces make sense.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Right.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
So why does someone need to be constantly getting feedback
that elevates them, sort of puts them on a pedestal,
makes them seem like the best. That's because anything less
than that feels like I'm nothing, I'm worthless. And so
understanding that can also tell you when it can become dangerous. Okay,
(09:01):
so when can it become dangerous? Well, people with narcissism
can get violent, and not just physically violent, but emotionally violent,
and so there can develop patterns of abuse and so forth.
And that's true of many. I mean, there's this not
like narcissism is all abuse, right, but like that's just
a thing that can happen, and it can happen when
that vulnerability comes into play. So when we say for some,
(09:27):
for example, set limits with someone and that they they
feel that as an injury to this sort of self
esteem structure that they've built up, and now they're back
to being vulnerable and you know, a kid again emotionally,
because well, if I'm not the best and you're insisting
(09:47):
that I'm not the best, then I'm the worst, And
so now it's dangerous, right doesn't.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
That break your heart out?
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Now I feel bad for thinking badly as well anybody
or trying to put a label on it or out of.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
We can increase empathy in the world, and we're doing
good work, right exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
That only helps to understand it more though.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
It does it It gives you a new perspective if you
are encountering someone like this, Okay, so you have empathy
for them, but sometimes even with empathy, if they continue
to do these have these behaviors that make you feel
a certain way. Are there things that you can do
as a person or how can you address a narcissist?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Is there a secret.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Technique to I don't know, Like I said, mitigate the
effects and the stress on your life.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
And this isn't just applicable to narcissism, but I would
give you an example from Judith Beck. So, Judith Beck
is one of the more prominent cognitive behavioral therapists in
the country. Her dad was Aaron Beck, who wrote the
initial books on CBT and all that. And I saw
a talk that she did in what she was addressing narcissism.
This was a few years back. So she had a
(10:51):
patient who recognized narcissism in himself and wanted to work
on it, which is great, it's an awesome first step, right,
And when he the way she tells the story basically,
so he comes in for his appointment and just the
nicest clothing, the very expensive bag, everything is polished. It's amazing,
(11:14):
like meticulous, right, highly expensive stuff. And so she recognizes
what is happening, which is I'm establishing I am the best.
I have the best things, right, which is a defense
against being of thinking that you're the worst.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Right.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
And so she totally disarms him because he says, you know,
this is other my travel bag. This isn't my good bag,
but it's like some fancy thing, right. So she says, well,
you know, I just keep everything in this paper.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Bag like this, right. So is this radical.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
Humility that she brings into the room, which the way
the patient described to her later as they continued to
work was it felt like you had totally disarmed me,
Like I had all of this paraphernalia almost like it
defense system, and you demonstrated to me that it wasn't necessary, Like, yeah,
you know you're a you're a psychologist, and you you're
(12:09):
carrying your things in a paper bag. So you know,
it's like, I don't even know I can't impress this person, right,
right exactly.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Oh, that's kind of cool because in one little move,
all of a sudden that none of that stuff was important.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Right, It's get down to what's really important.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
That's pretty cool.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
And so that's you know, that's not guaranteed to work
every time. Nothing is right. When you recognize that someone
basically needs to be you need to set boundaries with someone.
It's it's very important to see if they can express
things explicitly instead of just implying. And so if the
implication as someone comes in the room is well, I'm
(12:46):
the best. I need you to recognize I'm the best.
I have the most expensive things, right, then you can
bring those words in instead of just letting it sit
on the table. Sure, and say I noticed you have
really nice things. That's cool. Good for you. I carry
my stuff in a paper bag. You know, It's like
now it's explicit, it's in the room and it can
(13:06):
be talked about. It's not this sort of hidden message.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
It's like just like you know, talking about the elephant
in the room, like, yo, come on, light out here,
and I mean you're going to therapy for a reason.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Right, let's lay it out.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
And that's s's the frame, right, because he's already there
to work on this.
Speaker 6 (13:20):
Can we go back for just a second to parenting styles.
You mentioned about how sometimes it starts as a young child. Sure,
what kind of parenting styles might cause this or bring
it into play?
Speaker 5 (13:31):
Okay, so classically, what you're going to have our parents
who are relatively distant, because kids need affection from their
parents one hundred percent, and they will essentially acquire behaviors
that get them that, right, and if that's a chronic
state of affairs, those will become entrenched. So that that's
(13:52):
just kind of how a person behaves. Like if if
a person can only get positive attention from a parent,
if they bring home that first place trophy, if they're
you know, getting the biggest scholarship. If they're winning all
of the awards and and all of the athletic events,
then they're going to feel like given that they're they're
(14:15):
getting nothing and less they're achieving that, then they must
be nothing unless they're achieving that, right, And so recognizing accomplishments,
not not demanding that people always give first place and everything. Celebrating, celebrate, celebrate,
celebrate everything, right, Like your kids showed up and ran
(14:36):
a race. That's hard, that's that's definitely not sitting on
the couch, right, So I don't care what place they
got in, they got out and they ran a race,
you know what I mean. So celebrating that it helps
to sort of smooth this out and to help help
someone recognize that there are other ways to access that caring.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Right, if you're raised by a narcissist, does that kind
of make you one?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
It doesn't have to.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
It could predispose, right, So maybe that they were under
similar circumstances growing up too, and so you know, but
those patterns are not inevitable learning about something, working on
it in therapy, reading about it, finding ways to sort
of say, oh, this is a pattern that I might
(15:22):
have because of like the narcissist stuff that I had
going on. Maybe if I find a different approach, then
my kids don't reexperience that, right, kind.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Of like breaking that generational curse? You got it, you know,
that's what That's what I keep seeing on Instagram.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
I feel like too. But then as a parent, you
kind of worry that am I over celebrating? Am I
not giving them a real dose of reality? Like, Okay,
this is going to sound harsh, but I mean that
wasn't awesome. I didn't like the way you did that
because I don't like that behavior. I didn't like how
you acted here. I mean, how do you kind of
negotiate that to I don't know, give them perspective and
(16:02):
have a fully rounded, wonderful, fabulous human.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Go answer that.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
For me, doctor, you want me to solve yes?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
And what is the meaning of life?
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Right after that and go What you're describing sounds like
setting setting limits and boundaries unacceptable versus unacceptable behavior versus
setting arbitrary boundaries on giving someone praise based on their
degree of accomplishment. That's two different questions, right, So, you know,
(16:32):
if your kid came home from school and wrecked your
whole house, right, and then went to the bedroom and
and slammed the door, like after breaking everything. It's not
going to be like you did great, not.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Awesome, But I got to tell you you killed it.
Speaker 5 (16:50):
You really did, so that that's a different thing. Right,
So that's setting a limit on a on a destructive behavior.
And what we're talking more about is recognizing, recognizing accomplishment
rather than say please don't do this. It's recognizing how
(17:13):
often can I praise? Right, and what to re a
positive rapport can I develop? And every excuse you can
build it? Right, If you know you made a cool
crayon drawing at preschool, it's going on the fridge, right,
we're celebrating that. Right, you made a cool crayon drawing
all over the wall at home when you were told
(17:36):
not to so much. Ye're probably we're probably going to
help me clean this up.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Right, guess what you get to learn something new? We're
going to clean that's right. We do talk to I
have a ten year old almost eleven year old stepdaughter,
and we talked to her a lot about just effort,
you know, just if you're trying, honey, that's all we
ask you. You know, Oh, well you didn't get straight
a's all year long. Oh you made one beat, honey.
(18:05):
The fact that you're giving it you're all and that
you're doing your very best, that's what we want you
to do. As long as you're giving it your all,
then we're happy with you.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
And they probably it sounds like this would already be
a kid who knows to challenge themselves. They're already getting
the rest A's right, So like they already see that
be and they're like, I could probably work on that,
Like they already got that lesson. You know, they don't
need additional right.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
We've talked a lot about kids, let's talk about I
hear a lot of buzz about narcissism and relationships, Like,
so you're dating and all of a sudden, you feel
like this person is not exactly what you were thinking,
Like it just becomes I don't know, more of an
abusive relationship. They just put you down. There's love bombing.
So let's talk about that. What all is that? And
(18:52):
when you look at your relationship, how do you figure
out that this is not good for me? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Sure?
Speaker 5 (18:57):
When you get into relationship to thinking about different types
of attachment that people have to one another and there's
a few different models of attachment. There's anxious attachment, and
anxious attachment is kind of I really need to be
in a relationship and I'm constantly in fear of losing
that relationship, and so I sort of bend over backwards
(19:20):
to make this person happy because I'm afraid of losing them. Right, So,
a person with that attachment style can be quite vulnerable
to getting attached to someone who's on the more narcissistic
side of things. Another attachment style is avoidant, and this
is going to be more the person who they want
a relationship, but as soon as it starts to become
close or serious, they create distance because there's this intrinsic
(19:44):
fear of getting too close, losing independence, those kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Right.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
So, the way that for example, narcissism might play out
in this is if someone is very anxiously attached, that's
their attachment style. There's nothing wrong with that, and they
find so one who you use the word love bomb,
who basically can say I'm going to make everything awesome
and positive for you right now, day one, Right, this
(20:10):
is great.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Like you don't even know me that well, do you
really want to make it that great here we are crazy,
you don't.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Know, Yeah, very spoiled right now?
Speaker 5 (20:19):
Yeah yeah, And so that creates an expectation from the
anxiously attached person that like, well, this must be that,
this is the standard, this is what I've been looking for,
and then maybe it dissipates over time and now we're
seeking it again.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Well, how do you seek it again?
Speaker 5 (20:39):
You're constantly sort of ingratiating yourself to this person, and
you can get kind of locked in that repetitive pattern.
Getting back to sort of how to deal with that
in a healthy way that keeps you safe is really
the most important thing, and that can come down to insight,
which is just having realized on what's really happening. And
(21:00):
sometimes it's hard for us to do that from in
the mix. So having a good friend, a friend who
is willing to say, hey, look, this is not as
great as you think it is. Yea, and I think
you know that, but you're having a hard time like
recognizing it from inside, right. So having that kind of
feedback and trusting it from those around who you do trust, friends, family,
(21:21):
other people who have eyes on the relationship. And if
it's in a dating situation where it's kind of not
a long term commitment necessarily. Yet then it's good to
sort of understand yourself well enough to say, these are
my limits, and if you cross them like that, we're
just not right for each other. So this isn't going
(21:43):
to go any further, right, And it's okay to sort
of come from that integrity and say, here is how
I operate as a person in a relationship. I like
to have secure commitment. I like to have not always
feel like I'm walking on eggshells. And if we can't
do that, then this problem is it going to work?
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Well?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Gosh, the person you're describing sounds so confident, and I
just who is that?
Speaker 3 (22:07):
I know? Right?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I mean everything you say sounds just like this is
exactly what you should think and you should set these
healthy boundaries. And you're absolutely.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, it's hard to do hard, right, Like you.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Put your money where your mouth is. It's hard.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (22:21):
So, and this is what I have sometimes a hard
time convincing patients that something like therapy can be right
for them because they'll say, well, I already know all
that stuff. I read a book about that, I saw
that on TikTok, you know, And then and I'm like,
I'm like, here's the thing though, right, someone can tell
you how to ride a bicycle, but until you work
(22:41):
with it and practice it and keep doing it and
get yourself into different situations and try it out, and
oh when I get my speed going up as I'm
coming down a hill if it's rainy outside, Like, gaining
that experience in practice under guidance is where the skill
building comes from. And that's the point of therapy. It's
not you can learn what you're going to learn in
(23:02):
therapy on day one. That's not a problem. It's practicing it.
It's watching for you know, the speed bumps. It's watching
for opportunities to say, oh, we're learning a different lesson today, right,
And gaining that confidence that you described, like you you
refer to that as like who is this person?
Speaker 3 (23:21):
This confident person?
Speaker 5 (23:22):
That's that's that's like a slow target, right, That's that's
a long term goal of therapy.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I want to come to you.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
I'm gonna make an appointment, and there's the goal. Doctor Murphy,
we talked about love bombing. Can you talk to us
just a little bit about trauma bond.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
So trauma bond in the sense that when people go
through a shared experience of trauma, they sort of create
an attachment to one another.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
Sure, that's definitely a survival instinct for human beings. I mean,
if you if you think of in the long run,
if if we're out in the woods and there's a
bear and we have to lean on each other for
teamwork to escape the bear, Well, now we feel like
a team, whether we just met or not. Right, And
so that sort of shared traumatic experience can create a
(24:15):
bond between people that maybe that wouldn't have been there
and maybe doesn't have a solid a basis as if
they had sort of known each other over time and
so forth, but nonetheless can form the foundation for a
solid relationship, just kind of depending on where things go afterward.
I don't know if that's the exact topic you were
getting after sort of.
Speaker 6 (24:35):
I think part of that is I've heard, probably in
the TikTok world, honestly like that some narcissists will seek
people and try to trauma bond with them to create
that space.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
So now we're sort of dipping over from the narcissism
side probably into the sociopath side.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Okay, okay, okay, that's done.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
Okay, Yeah, So antisocial personality disorder is another variant of
personality disorder, and one of the key ingredients there is
a sort of lack of empathy, right, And so this
comes down to literal neurological function, like there are parts
of our brain that are responsive to seeing what other
(25:18):
people are experiencing and feeling some of that that we
call empathy, and those don't work in some people. And
so then a lot of automatic responses we have like
oh my gosh, you look like you're having such a
tough time. I really feel bad for you, and we
sincerely mean that because we're feeling what they're feeling. We
(25:39):
imagine not having that it's like being blind to that entirely.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
Now, the thing becomes how do you then interact with
other people without that component, And a lot of times
it can take the form of things like manipulation.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:55):
So this can be someone who thinks in terms of
what they need and they don't really think much beyond that, right,
And so other people become useful for meeting their needs.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
It's like a tool to them and yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
It's just what you need to get through. Yeah, oh man.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
And so if a learned behavior is if I act
in such and such a way, then someone will fairly
quickly bond to me and then they will bend over
backwards to make me happy. I'm just going to do
that again. It worked last time.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, if that's the behavior you understand and it works,
then yeah, you're going to continue to do it. That's
a very place to be very through.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
But doctor Murphy, we've talked about kids, and we've talked
about relationships. Let's talk about coworkers because a lot of
people have to deal with narcissists on just various levels
and locations in their lives and applications and stuff like that.
So if you have a coworker you think is a narcissist,
is there a way to deal with them and set
boundaries even if they're in charge, like of course bost Town.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
You know, right, So one good approach that's that's I
think fairly well evidence based, and some of it comes
from a therapy approach called DBT. Dictical behavioral therapy is
focus on the facts. Focus on the facts kind of
works like this. We get channels of information from other people.
Those include body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, and
(27:20):
the words they say. Right, But if you're in a
work relationship, you may have a pattern developed with someone
where they might say one thing with their words, but
they're giving you lots of other messages through body language,
like dismissiveness, like looking down on you, things like this, right,
(27:40):
like taking advantage of you. Oh, the work you've done
in this is really good, really.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Good that face.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
You know the words I said, but think about the
words I said without all of that extra you said,
I did a really good job. So you can always
choose to interact with someone on the bay of the
words they said, rather than reading beyond all of those
extra channels they're giving you. They're giving you that, So
there's also plausible deniability. Right, I just told him you
(28:10):
did a good job. That's all I said.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
And I don't want to.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
I get it, you don't have anger management issues. That's
another podcast, so we'll another episode that's okay, literally that
you did such a great job and all see you suck.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
I mean that's what I've read.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, And so make people make people
say the words, right, So, oh thanks, you said I
did a good job.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
I like that, repeating it back to them.
Speaker 5 (28:39):
You're not hearing me, I said, you did such a
good job, Like, I know, thanks, that's a great compliment.
You did a terrible job. Oh you have critique, talk
me through it.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
What have I done?
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Now they have to put words to it, they have
to make it explicit. And now you're interacting on the
basis of facts rather than sort of read all of
this other content.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Okay, I like this, I wonder like that. That's hope.
That's going to help a lot of people. For real,
I've never done I want to do this so bad
now at work. Also, I have an idea.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Okay, next episode, they've all lost their jobs and it's
my fault.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Podcast is no longer affiliated with anybody. We're doing it
just for funes. So, but there is like you said,
through therapy, a narcissist can change. Oh sure, okay, so
if they do the work. So but what if they
don't want to change?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
What if they they.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
May not even realize? Well, in that that may be
a possibility to aren't they perfect to begin with?
Speaker 6 (29:40):
Right?
Speaker 3 (29:41):
That can make it hard?
Speaker 5 (29:42):
Right, it's hard to come and ask for help if
asking for help must mean I'm completely worthless, Right, because
if I'm the best one.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Chink in your armor, your armor.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
No tolerance for one chink in the armor, so that
that can be tough, and that does prevent people from
seeking care of at the time. If you know someone
and you have empathy for them, and you care for
them and you recognize these patterns, it's actually helpful to
try to encourage them to go to therapy. But it
needs to be in a very non accusative way. It's
(30:15):
not like, you know, I've figured out everything that's wrong,
and it's that you're a narcissist and I know a
therapist who can fix you, so you're going, you know,
like that is not a great approach, just kidding change
in plans, but to say instead, you know, hey, we've
(30:37):
had we've had our ups and downs for sure, and
we can probably both recognize that. I think maybe we
both could benefit from from seeing a therapist, and we
could either go as a couple or we could see
your own therapist, but maybe they can help us get
some insight into what's going on here. And assuming that
a person is invested in the relationship and that you've
come at it from that non confrontational, like not defensive
(31:02):
and not accusatory posture, but instead is like, hey, let's
cooperate on improving things here. They might say, yes, they
might right, but there's no guarantees about that. Sure, but
when they do, it can go good places, such great tips.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I think this is fantastic, and it's good to understand
a narcissist a little bit better because I really do
feel almost sorry if I were to see somebody like,
I'm like, oh, who hurt you? And can I hug you?
You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Definitely a different perspective rather than just being angry at
the way they treat you and make you feel right,
So it's definitely you have to find that empathy for
someone who can be really difficult.
Speaker 6 (31:40):
I think we also learned you can't put a label
on everybody because not everybody falls under those specifically.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
That's right, really good.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Well, all of these personality disorders are essentially overactive versions
of personality traits that all of us have, right, We
need a certain amount of narcissistic flavor in our personality
to have things like self confidence, Like you have to
be able to say I got pretty good at this,
Like I'm not going to be the best, but I
got pretty good at it, and I'm confident in my
skill set. Right, But if that were to like the
(32:10):
medical term is hypertrophy, like to get way too strong
and start to overshadow everything, then maybe it's grandiose, maybe
it's narcissist, right, but it's still it can be in moderation,
quite a healthy trade.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Sure, Okay, yeah, because you do need to have that
self confidence.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
So that does make sense if you look at like
narcissistic tendencies, you're like, oh, I kind of do that.
Oh I have a little bit of that. We can
all we all should have a little we should y'all should.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
Have you read through all the personality disorders and you'll
see a little bits and pieces of yourself all over
the plaast And that's true of all of us, right right,
But that doesn't mean everybody has all these personality disorders.
It means that those are just human personalities and it
becomes a disorder when it becomes a problem, like it's
affecting their lives in negative ways, it's causing a difficulties
(33:00):
with their family and their work relationships and becomes something
they want to address in therapy.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Well, my goodness, that's fantastic. Really, this is good to
know you have given us such good information today, by
the way, Yes, and helped us to understand it a
little bit better too, because you were throwing around some words,
but then you gave us.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
An example totally got it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Well, so I think that's all the questions that we
have today because you answered spectacularly and we really learned
a lot, and we really appreciate you coming on the
podcast today to help us learn a little bit more
about this, and we do hope to have you on
later for some more personality disorders.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Let's pick a few. Sure, that's fun. I'll come back, noe.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
I mean, your insight has been fabulous. So thank you
so much, doctor Murphy.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
You're welcome you so much. And so that was doctor
Scott Murphy, who is a psychiatrist here at Valley Health.
And if you do need help, if you do want
to find a provider, you can go to Valleyhealth dot org.
There is a full list of them on the website.
I go to the website like once a week, by
the way, I look for new people.
Speaker 6 (33:58):
Talk you for helping us with our matrix.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
But yeah, so this is tm I talking medical information
with Valley Health and my Valley girls. Jess Staples and
Melanie Schaeffer. Listen, we are coming back. We're gonna be
back once a month now with this podcast. We think
we've got some good information. We've got some new providers
lined up as well, so we're gonna bring all the
information to you on TMI talking Medical Information with Valley Health.
(34:24):
We'll catch you next month.
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