November 21, 2025 • 30 mins
As more people are working well into their 60s and 70s, a new survey shows most businesses aren’t taking advantage of their skills. Experts with the Society of Human Resources Management say tapping into the experienced workforce could be the solution to America's labor shortage. On this episode, we're talking to Dr. James Atkinson, the VP of Thought Leadership at SHRM, to find out more.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Virginia Focus. I'm Rebecca Hughes of the Virginia
News Network. As more people are working well into their
sixties and seventies, a new survey shows most businesses are
not taking advantage of their skills. Experts with a Society
of Human Resources Management say tapping into the experienced workforce
could be the solution to America's labor shortage. On this episode,
(00:27):
we're talking to doctor James Atkinson's the vice president of
Fought Leadership at SHERM, to find out more. Welcome to
the show, doctor Adkinson. I'm glad you could come on
and talk to us about this because I know it's
important to a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yes, thank you so much for having me here today.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
So when don't we start by telling the audience who
you are, like, what makes you qualified to talk about this?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Absolutely well. I am our vice president of Thought Leadership
at SHERM, and SHERM is the world's largest membership association
for HR professionals with more more than three hundred thousand
members worldwide, and what I do at CHURAM is I
oversee a team that's conducting research on all things related
to HR and the workplace. Itself. So part of the
(01:14):
research we'll be talking about today was conducted on my
team and really focused in on this particular population.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Okay, now I'm going to tell on myself. I even
though my brain is in my twenties, I'm going to
be fifty next year, and so I assume that that
puts me in this older worker category. Is that correct?
Or is there a different age group for that?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, so when people talk about older workers, they do
have a few different definitions of what that means. We
are certainly focused in on actually the sixty five and
older group in much of our research here, but there
are certainly some things that can be more generalized to
(02:00):
a slightly younger population in their fifties as well.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Okay, and what we're talking about today is how older
workers are often overlooked. The immediate excuse given for stuff
like that is, well, maybe they don't know technology as
well as the up and coming newer workers. Is that
the only explanation? What do you think the reasons are?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, I think the reasons for being overlooked are probably
several things, and you noted technology might be one of
those particular things, but I think a lot of it
has to do with some misperceptions of older workers. So
one of those is that people in this age group
are set in their ways and don't want to learn
(02:47):
new things, technology being one of those particular pieces. Again,
our research really debunkts that myth because eight and ten
tell us that they have a strong willingness to learn
on all kinds of new skill sets. So I think
that's one piece of it. A second piece is that,
you know, older workers are not engaged in their work
(03:10):
or maybe just writing it out a little bit longer
until they retire. But again, our research finds out quite
differently that you know, ninety one percent say they're very
satisfied with their job, and nearly nine to ten are
quite engaged in their work as well. So I think
a lot of this is about some of those misperceptions.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Okay, I would definitely agree with that. Would you say
that the newer generation maybe doesn't realize how much they
can learn from older workers or is that always been
a problem.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think that's probably been an issue for many decades
in many generations. Right There's there's always maybe a lack
of understanding of how we can all learn from each other.
And I think that as you think about what the
older worker population brings to the table. They bring a
(04:10):
solid set of experience, and they bring a wide range
of skill sets, and if they've been at a particular
place for a long time, they also bring a lot
of institutional knowledge, all of which can be quite valuable
for anyone else in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that for sure. Do you
think it's more important to have those older workers in
the trades more so than the white color jobs or
is that pretty equal?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Oh? You know, we actually see older workers as a
large part of a lot of different types of industry.
And in fact, you see kind of in the One
of the biggest industries is around agricultural forestry, fishing, and hunting.
About seventeen percent of that industry is sixty five and older.
(05:01):
You also see a lot in the real estate, rental
and le seeing industry at nearly thirteen percent, and even
about one in ten in the arts, entertainment and recreational
groups as well. So as we think about those those
different industries, we do see older workers across both trades
(05:23):
as well as white collar jobs, including about twelve percent
in the legal profession as well.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Okay, now, I have seen several articles recently speaking about
how gen Z in particular, if they get laid off
here in this older season, I guess you could call
it of life that they are not it takes them longer,
for whatever reason, to get back into the workplace. Does
(05:53):
that have any factor into this survey? Do you think?
I mean, can you explain that to us?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So, just to clarify, you're saying that the older worker
population might have a harder time re engaging in the
workforce or the younger population in gen.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Z, the older ones, it's not that they don't want
to re engage and be there, but finding that job
has become more difficult than it ever has been.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, and I think that is an issue and a
challenge that we see with this population. Again, I think
it comes back to some of those misperceptions we talked
about earlier, of this idea that well, if we're transitioning
and adopting a lot of new technology, this group may
(06:40):
not have a willingness to learn, or they may not
be focused on growing in their careers. But again, our
research suggests that is a misperception, but it is a
widely held misperception. So I think that can be a
challenge to overcoming some of that when you're trying to
re engage in the workforce.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So, besides awareness campaigns, which I guess we could say
that this podcast serves as part of that, what other
ways can we change that stigma?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Well, I think there's a few different ways. Certainly, as
we think about what organizations can do, we find that
that very few do this, but there are some ways
to really kind of target recruiting for this older worker population.
Certainly an awareness campaign is a part of that as well,
(07:34):
but I think having solid research that says, hey, these
perceptions are that are not reality is a key important
piece of it. And also to really focus in on
the value that this older population brings to the workforce. Again,
(07:55):
that key set of skills that they have acquired, the
experience and frankly the ability to weather change. That is
a key benefit of someone who has been in their
career for several decades. They've seen a lot happen and
they've been resilient to continue in the workforce through all
(08:18):
of that.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Okay, now, I know you said your study is mostly
sixty five and up. Obviously those are at least what
modern day people think of as retirement age people. Are
we going to see an increase in that age group
staying in the workforce more so than we have been seeing,
(08:42):
do you think? And if so why?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, So it's a great question. So I will note
that sixty five and up group, it is the fastest
growing segment of the labor force at large across the
last few decades, and so we've seen tremendous increases and
now have nearly twelve million in that age group that
are working across the labor force. I think we have
(09:09):
seen this growth and will continue to see this growth
for a few reasons. One is we as a society
or an aging population, so there frankly are just more
people in that work in that labor force and segment
than we've ever seen before. So we're going to see
(09:30):
continued growth in people that are that are working as well.
We also see that some people continue to work because
of financial reasons, that there is a desire to ensure
that they are truly set up for the rest of
their life, and for many that life is longer. We
(09:52):
see better health outcomes, and so it makes sense if
you are going to have a longer retirement, you may
need to plan for that. A little bit longer by
staying in the workforce itself. Also because of that those
longer health out or kind of better health outcomes leading
to longer lives, we see people just simply wanting to
(10:13):
stay engaged and to continue to kind of push their
both mental and physical abilities while they're growing older and
growing you know, and staying healthier. So there's a wide
range of reasons to suspect that we are going to
(10:35):
continue to see this being a very dominant part of
our labor force for a while in the future.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Okay, and well, I agree with everything you said. I
have to add to it and ask you about it.
One of the things you did not mention was actually
two things you didn't mention was the fact that a
lot of employers and such have gone away from pensions
and gen Z is kind of, as my understanding, is
(11:03):
the first real entire generation to have to learn, for
one k and how to plan your retirement from an
early agent, and to be frank, we're not good at it.
We haven't done a good job. That coupled with the
fact that while there are increased health outcomes, there's also
a large chunk the majority of gen Zers who are
(11:24):
helping their children to pay bills just because the kids nowadays,
they're not making enough. The wages haven't kept up, and
so it's requiring gen Z to you know, in a
lot of ways, either help out with a down payment
or co sign or pay you know, a cell phone bill,
or put them on your even a minimum put them
(11:46):
on your plan to give them that kind of discount.
Can you talk to if that is gonna get worse?
I mean, we don't see anything that looks like that's
gonna get better right now.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Well, certainly, I think there's a lot that is happening
in that kind of middle section of the labor force
and is kind of pushing into that older section that
we're talking about sixty five and older. You know, you
noted the need to kind of help financially with that
younger generation. So if you're in your fifties or in
(12:23):
your sixties, you may be, yes, there may be some
financial reasons that you're not just trying to secure your
your future, but you're trying to secure that next generation's
future as well. I was reading about just kind of
the median age of household ownership continues to creep up.
(12:44):
For some of that that reason of it being just
harder to make that down payment and start that next
phase of life. So I think that's certainly one of
the reasons that we see. However, we also see a
lot of folks, especially as you get into fifties and
even into sixties, are not just caring for the younger generation,
(13:07):
but they're also caring for parents and an older generation.
We like to call this group that sandwiched generation. And
so you're actually seeing financial strain on your kind of
own generation. You're you're adding in a little bit of
that financial strain perhaps by caring for a younger generation,
(13:30):
but you're also potentially caring for an older generation too,
and that kind of caregiver. That increase of caregiving responsibilities
certainly is one of the factors that would keep people
in the workforce longer.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Okay, I love that answer. Do you think that as
people do stay in the workforce longer, for whatever the
reason is, do you think it's going to cause the
younger generations to start resenting older workers even more Because
you can't advance at your job if the people that
(14:06):
are older and above you don't leave. You know, we
can't miss you if you don't go away. So to speak.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Well, you know, I certainly can't speak to how the
younger generation is going to perceive that that older generation, though,
I suspect that there's a bit of what you suggested.
That's always been the case, right, regardless of whether or
not we see growing numbers in that older group. I
(14:36):
think what's important is to understand a bit of how
each of those generations can learn from and help each other.
And so while that position may not be open, the
ability to gain the skills and learn from the experience
of someone who's remaining in that position for a longer time,
(14:56):
I think is still available to younger generations.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I love that answer because I agree with you one
hundred percent. How do you think that AI is going
to play a role in all the things we're talking about.
I know we've already seen where AI is starting to
take the entry level jobs and fill those which is
taking away those jobs for teenagers and for you know,
(15:21):
brand new workers who've never been in the workforce who
are needing to establish those necessary skills to know how
to progress in their career. Those those jobs are starting
to go away. Do you think it will also have
an effect on these older workers?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, Well, unsurprisingly, given that we cover the broad workforce,
we do a lot of research around AI and it's
impact across the generations and across the workforce as well.
And you noted one of the things that we've seen
as how some entree level jobs may be impacted in
(16:00):
terms of the availability for as a result of AI.
We'll note that some of our broader work shows that
while we talk a lot about AI displacement, the reality
is that most jobs are going to be transformed through
this technology itself, and so whether it's older workers or
(16:22):
workers of any generation, it's really about being able to
upskill on this new technology and truly understanding how it
will play a role in either the job you have
or the job you want next. We like to say
that AI is not coming for your job. The person
who knows how to leverage AI in their job better
(16:43):
than you is the one who's coming for your job.
And so there's definitely a need for this older population,
along with the rest of the workforce, to understand how
this new technology might be changing and is changing jobs
that they have.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Okay, I love that answer. What advice would you give
to the sixty five and older crowd? Right now, Let's
say they've been in a job for a little while
and they're looking to change jobs. Is now the time
for that? Is it not a good idea? What should
they do?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Well? Obviously, it's it's going to depend on each person's situation.
We are in a labor market that is, you know,
softer by history, by kind of recent history, it is,
meaning that it's a little harder to find jobs. Overall.
That said, there are certain parts of the industry, uh,
(17:43):
certain industries and certain jobs in particular industries where uh,
it's still booming. So it really depends on where you are.
If you're someone who has a lot of you know,
kind of healthcare experience, for example, and you're wanting to
switch jobs within the healthcare industry, that is a place
that continues to grow in terms of jobs, continues to
(18:08):
have shortages of people filling certain jobs, and as we
have an aging population overall, the expectation is that will
continue in the foreseeable future to be a place where
we see job growth. So if you're in that industry
and you're wanting to switch jobs, it might be a
great time to do that. But again, in other places,
(18:30):
you really have to kind of understand what the market
is for your particular skill set and figure out if
that's the right move at this time.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Okay, And as a representative of the Society of Human
Resources Management, I assume that your organization also does maybe
some lobbying or at least talks with politicians about various topics.
Is there anything in the works right now, you know
(19:01):
in Washington or even in one of the states it
would be of particular interest.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Well, I'm probably not the best person to talk about
our policy advocacy, just because we do have a separate
government affairs team that focuses in on that. So, but
what my team absolutely does is to share all of
this research to ensure that people have a better understanding,
in this particular instance, on how that older population can
(19:31):
really help to fill these broader talent shortages that we
have across the US. So I noted, you know, the
labor market is softening a little bit, but we have
big talent shortages in certain industries and certain jobs. And
so what we work to do with policymakers is make
sure that that they're thinking about these untapped talent pools,
(19:55):
and we would put that older worker population into a
talent pool that might not be the first go to
for a given organization to target, but just encouraging people
to be thinking about, how, you know, what are the
policies we can put in place to ensure that this
population has the same level of access as everyone else.
(20:19):
So again, as we think about that water advocacy work,
it's really just an awareness of the value that this
part of the population can bring to any given organization.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Okay, and are there any other scientific studies that you're
working on right now that you could share with us
or is it too soon?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Well, we certainly have a wide range of research that
my team covers. Right now, we are working on work
related to organizational culture and what that looks like across
twenty different countries. We are working continue to work on
and have just published some research around labor shortages, which
(21:06):
is what I was referencing earlier. And we have upcoming
research that really explores what are the big priorities going
into twenty twenty six at the CEO and the head
of HR levels, so what are the big trends that
they expect coming down the pipeline. So all of that
(21:26):
is coming soon, but those are some of the big
things that we're working on right now.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Okay, that sounds very interesting. So if somebody wanted to
keep up with that, where would they go when you
do release those different studies.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, so you can find out more about everything we
do at schirm dot org. So SHRLM dot org. That's
where you can have at least a peek at articles
as well as research that we do, and then certainly
those that are members can do a deeper dive into
(22:02):
all of our work.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Okay, great, I'm curious and you're the expert. Is there
anything the audience needs to know that I just didn't
know I needed to ask you about. When it comes
to this study about older workers.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
The only thing that I would note is when we
think about how older workers learn, there is one other
piece of the research that suggests that older workers basically
learn and can upskill in pretty much the same ways
that anybody else across the organization can. Effective ways are
(22:42):
mentoring and your kind of standard training, etc. So for
organizations that are thinking about how you ensure older workers
have the skills that they need, I think it's important
to note that you don't necessarcessarily have to do very
different programs. You just have to make sure everybody across
(23:05):
the organization has access to the right training.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Okay, And as far as the work that you're doing
looking into shortages, I don't know if you can say yet,
but is there a particular Surely there's not just one
reason for it. What are some of the reasons that
you're finding might be adding to the problem.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Sure, as we think about labor shortages broadly, the biggest
driver that is actually the demographic shift that we're seeing
in our country, and so that is just that we
are an aging population. And while that sixty five and
older is a growing segment of the workforce, there's still
(23:50):
a larger segment that is no longer in the workforce
as well. So that is certainly the biggest driver of
those shortages. However, other things that really contribute to labor
shortages or kind of skills or experiential mismatch. So we have,
(24:11):
from the research that we have recently released, know that
about one in three jobs are not able to be
filled by somebody who is currently unemployed and has the
same kind of recent occupation as that job. So if
you think about that, that suggests that even though we
(24:34):
might have a similar number of unfilled positions and unemployed
people in the US, we're not able to match people
based on their occupation or that underlying set of skills,
because we're needing to kind of reskill or upskill people
into these new jobs.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Okay. Is that what President Trump was trying to say
when he was talking about how we might need to
bring in talent from other countries.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Well, you know, I'm not sure exactly the context of
that particular statement, but I do think that as we
think about the overall labor shortage we have in the US,
one of the ways that you can help to change
that dynamic is by increasing the population of people that
(25:29):
are working. And so if we do not have all
of what we need in the US, then certainly we
would have to look elsewhere to fill certain roles for
which we just don't have the requisite skills.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Okay, And for those that might be unemployed, and they're
hearing this and they're thinking, well, I'm very willing to
be upskilled. I mean, some of those skills my understanding
from other career coaches and things I've talked to you,
some of those things are interpersonal and not necessarily measurable,
and they're not things that are taught in school. But
(26:07):
is that kind of the answer is everyone needs to
kind of get some training somehow, and how do we
go about that? Because it on the job training has
been I would say, one of the best ways to
learn anything. I mean, I went to college and I
learned some stuff, but I didn't learn truly how to
do my career till I was in the workforce doing
(26:28):
the job, you know, And I think that's true for
a lot of people. So how do we get upskilled?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Sure, you raise a great point, on the job training
is one of those great ways to really learn what
you need to do in a particular job. I think
there's a wide range of ways though that if you
are currently unemployed and you're looking for a job, that
you can build some of those skills. There are certainly
(26:55):
free resources out there. They're kind of low cost online
training options as well, and I think it's really first
about thinking what is the job that I am wanting
and understanding what are the sets of skills that I
need to have for that particular job, and then it's
(27:19):
really about being able to demonstrate that through an application
process and through an interview process. What I think we
sometimes do as people searching for jobs, we might limit
the applicability of some of the skills because they don't
match exactly to what is said. But being able to
(27:40):
translate what you've done and the skills you've acquired over
the years to whatever is needed in a particular open
job is one of the things that's really important. So again,
training is key for certain skills that you simply do
not have, but being able to translate what you do
have to how might apply to a new job is
(28:01):
another important thing to do if you're looking.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I love that. I love that advice. I hope a
lot of people hear that, because you know, that's one
of those things that you don't get taught, you know,
for the most part, And like you said, I think
that's one of the crucial ways to be successful when
switching jobs in our job market. I apologize we're at
the end of our time and I can't believe that
(28:27):
because I feel like I just started talking to you.
You are fascinating.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Oh oh, thank you, thank you. I've enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah I have too, So maybe we can talk again soon,
but for now I will have to say, uh, I
appreciate you coming on the show. Can you plug your website?
One more time for me.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Absolutely, So. Our website is Shuram dot org s h
r M dot org. Great, and I will also point
people to the Sharham Foundation Center for a Skills First Future,
which really focuses on how organizations can focus on the
skills that are needed in order to hire people and
(29:06):
really help with some of the labor shortages that we've
talked about.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I love that. I love that, And that website is
Can you get to there from the SHERM main website
or is that different?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Absolutely you can click on shirm Foundation from that main
site and you can go to the Center for a
Skills First Future.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Wonderful. Okay, well, thank you again for coming on the show.
Let's definitely keep in touch because I think we have
a lot more we can talk about.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Absolutely, that would be my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I hope you've enjoyed today's show. Thanks for tuning into
the show on your favorite local radio station. You can
now listen to this show or past shows through the
iheartapp or on iHeart dot com. Just search for Virginia
Focus under podcasts. I'm Rebecca Hughes with a Virginia News
Network and I'll be here next week on Virginia focus
Welcome to Virginia Focus. I'm Rebecca Hughes of the Virginia
News Network. As more people are working well into their
sixties and seventies, a new survey shows most businesses are
not taking advantage of their skills. Experts with a Society
of Human Resources Management say tapping into the experienced workforce
could be the solution to America's labor shortage. On this episode,
(00:27):
we're talking to doctor James Atkinson's the vice president of
Fought Leadership at SHERM, to find out more. Welcome to
the show, doctor Adkinson. I'm glad you could come on
and talk to us about this because I know it's
important to a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yes, thank you so much for having me here today.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
So when don't we start by telling the audience who
you are, like, what makes you qualified to talk about this?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Absolutely well. I am our vice president of Thought Leadership
at SHERM, and SHERM is the world's largest membership association
for HR professionals with more more than three hundred thousand
members worldwide, and what I do at CHURAM is I
oversee a team that's conducting research on all things related
to HR and the workplace. Itself. So part of the
(01:14):
research we'll be talking about today was conducted on my
team and really focused in on this particular population.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Okay, now I'm going to tell on myself. I even
though my brain is in my twenties, I'm going to
be fifty next year, and so I assume that that
puts me in this older worker category. Is that correct?
Or is there a different age group for that?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, so when people talk about older workers, they do
have a few different definitions of what that means. We
are certainly focused in on actually the sixty five and
older group in much of our research here, but there
are certainly some things that can be more generalized to
(02:00):
a slightly younger population in their fifties as well.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Okay, and what we're talking about today is how older
workers are often overlooked. The immediate excuse given for stuff
like that is, well, maybe they don't know technology as
well as the up and coming newer workers. Is that
the only explanation? What do you think the reasons are?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, I think the reasons for being overlooked are probably
several things, and you noted technology might be one of
those particular things, but I think a lot of it
has to do with some misperceptions of older workers. So
one of those is that people in this age group
are set in their ways and don't want to learn
(02:47):
new things, technology being one of those particular pieces. Again,
our research really debunkts that myth because eight and ten
tell us that they have a strong willingness to learn
on all kinds of new skill sets. So I think
that's one piece of it. A second piece is that,
you know, older workers are not engaged in their work
(03:10):
or maybe just writing it out a little bit longer
until they retire. But again, our research finds out quite
differently that you know, ninety one percent say they're very
satisfied with their job, and nearly nine to ten are
quite engaged in their work as well. So I think
a lot of this is about some of those misperceptions.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Okay, I would definitely agree with that. Would you say
that the newer generation maybe doesn't realize how much they
can learn from older workers or is that always been
a problem.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think that's probably been an issue for many decades
in many generations. Right There's there's always maybe a lack
of understanding of how we can all learn from each other.
And I think that as you think about what the
older worker population brings to the table. They bring a
(04:10):
solid set of experience, and they bring a wide range
of skill sets, and if they've been at a particular
place for a long time, they also bring a lot
of institutional knowledge, all of which can be quite valuable
for anyone else in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that for sure. Do you
think it's more important to have those older workers in
the trades more so than the white color jobs or
is that pretty equal?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Oh? You know, we actually see older workers as a
large part of a lot of different types of industry.
And in fact, you see kind of in the One
of the biggest industries is around agricultural forestry, fishing, and hunting.
About seventeen percent of that industry is sixty five and older.
(05:01):
You also see a lot in the real estate, rental
and le seeing industry at nearly thirteen percent, and even
about one in ten in the arts, entertainment and recreational
groups as well. So as we think about those those
different industries, we do see older workers across both trades
(05:23):
as well as white collar jobs, including about twelve percent
in the legal profession as well.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Okay, now, I have seen several articles recently speaking about
how gen Z in particular, if they get laid off
here in this older season, I guess you could call
it of life that they are not it takes them longer,
for whatever reason, to get back into the workplace. Does
(05:53):
that have any factor into this survey? Do you think?
I mean, can you explain that to us?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So, just to clarify, you're saying that the older worker
population might have a harder time re engaging in the
workforce or the younger population in gen.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Z, the older ones, it's not that they don't want
to re engage and be there, but finding that job
has become more difficult than it ever has been.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, and I think that is an issue and a
challenge that we see with this population. Again, I think
it comes back to some of those misperceptions we talked
about earlier, of this idea that well, if we're transitioning
and adopting a lot of new technology, this group may
(06:40):
not have a willingness to learn, or they may not
be focused on growing in their careers. But again, our
research suggests that is a misperception, but it is a
widely held misperception. So I think that can be a
challenge to overcoming some of that when you're trying to
re engage in the workforce.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So, besides awareness campaigns, which I guess we could say
that this podcast serves as part of that, what other
ways can we change that stigma?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Well, I think there's a few different ways. Certainly, as
we think about what organizations can do, we find that
that very few do this, but there are some ways
to really kind of target recruiting for this older worker population.
Certainly an awareness campaign is a part of that as well,
(07:34):
but I think having solid research that says, hey, these
perceptions are that are not reality is a key important
piece of it. And also to really focus in on
the value that this older population brings to the workforce. Again,
(07:55):
that key set of skills that they have acquired, the
experience and frankly the ability to weather change. That is
a key benefit of someone who has been in their
career for several decades. They've seen a lot happen and
they've been resilient to continue in the workforce through all
(08:18):
of that.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Okay, now, I know you said your study is mostly
sixty five and up. Obviously those are at least what
modern day people think of as retirement age people. Are
we going to see an increase in that age group
staying in the workforce more so than we have been seeing,
(08:42):
do you think? And if so why?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, So it's a great question. So I will note
that sixty five and up group, it is the fastest
growing segment of the labor force at large across the
last few decades, and so we've seen tremendous increases and
now have nearly twelve million in that age group that
are working across the labor force. I think we have
(09:09):
seen this growth and will continue to see this growth
for a few reasons. One is we as a society
or an aging population, so there frankly are just more
people in that work in that labor force and segment
than we've ever seen before. So we're going to see
(09:30):
continued growth in people that are that are working as well.
We also see that some people continue to work because
of financial reasons, that there is a desire to ensure
that they are truly set up for the rest of
their life, and for many that life is longer. We
(09:52):
see better health outcomes, and so it makes sense if
you are going to have a longer retirement, you may
need to plan for that. A little bit longer by
staying in the workforce itself. Also because of that those
longer health out or kind of better health outcomes leading
to longer lives, we see people just simply wanting to
(10:13):
stay engaged and to continue to kind of push their
both mental and physical abilities while they're growing older and
growing you know, and staying healthier. So there's a wide
range of reasons to suspect that we are going to
(10:35):
continue to see this being a very dominant part of
our labor force for a while in the future.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Okay, and well, I agree with everything you said. I
have to add to it and ask you about it.
One of the things you did not mention was actually
two things you didn't mention was the fact that a
lot of employers and such have gone away from pensions
and gen Z is kind of, as my understanding, is
(11:03):
the first real entire generation to have to learn, for
one k and how to plan your retirement from an
early agent, and to be frank, we're not good at it.
We haven't done a good job. That coupled with the
fact that while there are increased health outcomes, there's also
a large chunk the majority of gen Zers who are
(11:24):
helping their children to pay bills just because the kids nowadays,
they're not making enough. The wages haven't kept up, and
so it's requiring gen Z to you know, in a
lot of ways, either help out with a down payment
or co sign or pay you know, a cell phone bill,
or put them on your even a minimum put them
(11:46):
on your plan to give them that kind of discount.
Can you talk to if that is gonna get worse?
I mean, we don't see anything that looks like that's
gonna get better right now.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Well, certainly, I think there's a lot that is happening
in that kind of middle section of the labor force
and is kind of pushing into that older section that
we're talking about sixty five and older. You know, you
noted the need to kind of help financially with that
younger generation. So if you're in your fifties or in
(12:23):
your sixties, you may be, yes, there may be some
financial reasons that you're not just trying to secure your
your future, but you're trying to secure that next generation's
future as well. I was reading about just kind of
the median age of household ownership continues to creep up.
(12:44):
For some of that that reason of it being just
harder to make that down payment and start that next
phase of life. So I think that's certainly one of
the reasons that we see. However, we also see a
lot of folks, especially as you get into fifties and
even into sixties, are not just caring for the younger generation,
(13:07):
but they're also caring for parents and an older generation.
We like to call this group that sandwiched generation. And
so you're actually seeing financial strain on your kind of
own generation. You're you're adding in a little bit of
that financial strain perhaps by caring for a younger generation,
(13:30):
but you're also potentially caring for an older generation too,
and that kind of caregiver. That increase of caregiving responsibilities
certainly is one of the factors that would keep people
in the workforce longer.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Okay, I love that answer. Do you think that as
people do stay in the workforce longer, for whatever the
reason is, do you think it's going to cause the
younger generations to start resenting older workers even more Because
you can't advance at your job if the people that
(14:06):
are older and above you don't leave. You know, we
can't miss you if you don't go away. So to speak.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Well, you know, I certainly can't speak to how the
younger generation is going to perceive that that older generation, though,
I suspect that there's a bit of what you suggested.
That's always been the case, right, regardless of whether or
not we see growing numbers in that older group. I
(14:36):
think what's important is to understand a bit of how
each of those generations can learn from and help each other.
And so while that position may not be open, the
ability to gain the skills and learn from the experience
of someone who's remaining in that position for a longer time,
(14:56):
I think is still available to younger generations.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I love that answer because I agree with you one
hundred percent. How do you think that AI is going
to play a role in all the things we're talking about.
I know we've already seen where AI is starting to
take the entry level jobs and fill those which is
taking away those jobs for teenagers and for you know,
(15:21):
brand new workers who've never been in the workforce who
are needing to establish those necessary skills to know how
to progress in their career. Those those jobs are starting
to go away. Do you think it will also have
an effect on these older workers?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, Well, unsurprisingly, given that we cover the broad workforce,
we do a lot of research around AI and it's
impact across the generations and across the workforce as well.
And you noted one of the things that we've seen
as how some entree level jobs may be impacted in
(16:00):
terms of the availability for as a result of AI.
We'll note that some of our broader work shows that
while we talk a lot about AI displacement, the reality
is that most jobs are going to be transformed through
this technology itself, and so whether it's older workers or
(16:22):
workers of any generation, it's really about being able to
upskill on this new technology and truly understanding how it
will play a role in either the job you have
or the job you want next. We like to say
that AI is not coming for your job. The person
who knows how to leverage AI in their job better
(16:43):
than you is the one who's coming for your job.
And so there's definitely a need for this older population,
along with the rest of the workforce, to understand how
this new technology might be changing and is changing jobs
that they have.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Okay, I love that answer. What advice would you give
to the sixty five and older crowd? Right now, Let's
say they've been in a job for a little while
and they're looking to change jobs. Is now the time
for that? Is it not a good idea? What should
they do?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Well? Obviously, it's it's going to depend on each person's situation.
We are in a labor market that is, you know,
softer by history, by kind of recent history, it is,
meaning that it's a little harder to find jobs. Overall.
That said, there are certain parts of the industry, uh,
(17:43):
certain industries and certain jobs in particular industries where uh,
it's still booming. So it really depends on where you are.
If you're someone who has a lot of you know,
kind of healthcare experience, for example, and you're wanting to
switch jobs within the healthcare industry, that is a place
that continues to grow in terms of jobs, continues to
(18:08):
have shortages of people filling certain jobs, and as we
have an aging population overall, the expectation is that will
continue in the foreseeable future to be a place where
we see job growth. So if you're in that industry
and you're wanting to switch jobs, it might be a
great time to do that. But again, in other places,
(18:30):
you really have to kind of understand what the market
is for your particular skill set and figure out if
that's the right move at this time.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Okay, And as a representative of the Society of Human
Resources Management, I assume that your organization also does maybe
some lobbying or at least talks with politicians about various topics.
Is there anything in the works right now, you know
(19:01):
in Washington or even in one of the states it
would be of particular interest.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Well, I'm probably not the best person to talk about
our policy advocacy, just because we do have a separate
government affairs team that focuses in on that. So, but
what my team absolutely does is to share all of
this research to ensure that people have a better understanding,
in this particular instance, on how that older population can
(19:31):
really help to fill these broader talent shortages that we
have across the US. So I noted, you know, the
labor market is softening a little bit, but we have
big talent shortages in certain industries and certain jobs. And
so what we work to do with policymakers is make
sure that that they're thinking about these untapped talent pools,
(19:55):
and we would put that older worker population into a
talent pool that might not be the first go to
for a given organization to target, but just encouraging people
to be thinking about, how, you know, what are the
policies we can put in place to ensure that this
population has the same level of access as everyone else.
(20:19):
So again, as we think about that water advocacy work,
it's really just an awareness of the value that this
part of the population can bring to any given organization.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Okay, and are there any other scientific studies that you're
working on right now that you could share with us
or is it too soon?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Well, we certainly have a wide range of research that
my team covers. Right now, we are working on work
related to organizational culture and what that looks like across
twenty different countries. We are working continue to work on
and have just published some research around labor shortages, which
(21:06):
is what I was referencing earlier. And we have upcoming
research that really explores what are the big priorities going
into twenty twenty six at the CEO and the head
of HR levels, so what are the big trends that
they expect coming down the pipeline. So all of that
(21:26):
is coming soon, but those are some of the big
things that we're working on right now.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Okay, that sounds very interesting. So if somebody wanted to
keep up with that, where would they go when you
do release those different studies.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, so you can find out more about everything we
do at schirm dot org. So SHRLM dot org. That's
where you can have at least a peek at articles
as well as research that we do, and then certainly
those that are members can do a deeper dive into
(22:02):
all of our work.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Okay, great, I'm curious and you're the expert. Is there
anything the audience needs to know that I just didn't
know I needed to ask you about. When it comes
to this study about older workers.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
The only thing that I would note is when we
think about how older workers learn, there is one other
piece of the research that suggests that older workers basically
learn and can upskill in pretty much the same ways
that anybody else across the organization can. Effective ways are
(22:42):
mentoring and your kind of standard training, etc. So for
organizations that are thinking about how you ensure older workers
have the skills that they need, I think it's important
to note that you don't necessarcessarily have to do very
different programs. You just have to make sure everybody across
(23:05):
the organization has access to the right training.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Okay, And as far as the work that you're doing
looking into shortages, I don't know if you can say yet,
but is there a particular Surely there's not just one
reason for it. What are some of the reasons that
you're finding might be adding to the problem.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Sure, as we think about labor shortages broadly, the biggest
driver that is actually the demographic shift that we're seeing
in our country, and so that is just that we
are an aging population. And while that sixty five and
older is a growing segment of the workforce, there's still
(23:50):
a larger segment that is no longer in the workforce
as well. So that is certainly the biggest driver of
those shortages. However, other things that really contribute to labor
shortages or kind of skills or experiential mismatch. So we have,
(24:11):
from the research that we have recently released, know that
about one in three jobs are not able to be
filled by somebody who is currently unemployed and has the
same kind of recent occupation as that job. So if
you think about that, that suggests that even though we
(24:34):
might have a similar number of unfilled positions and unemployed
people in the US, we're not able to match people
based on their occupation or that underlying set of skills,
because we're needing to kind of reskill or upskill people
into these new jobs.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Okay. Is that what President Trump was trying to say
when he was talking about how we might need to
bring in talent from other countries.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Well, you know, I'm not sure exactly the context of
that particular statement, but I do think that as we
think about the overall labor shortage we have in the US,
one of the ways that you can help to change
that dynamic is by increasing the population of people that
(25:29):
are working. And so if we do not have all
of what we need in the US, then certainly we
would have to look elsewhere to fill certain roles for
which we just don't have the requisite skills.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Okay, And for those that might be unemployed, and they're
hearing this and they're thinking, well, I'm very willing to
be upskilled. I mean, some of those skills my understanding
from other career coaches and things I've talked to you,
some of those things are interpersonal and not necessarily measurable,
and they're not things that are taught in school. But
(26:07):
is that kind of the answer is everyone needs to
kind of get some training somehow, and how do we
go about that? Because it on the job training has
been I would say, one of the best ways to
learn anything. I mean, I went to college and I
learned some stuff, but I didn't learn truly how to
do my career till I was in the workforce doing
(26:28):
the job, you know, And I think that's true for
a lot of people. So how do we get upskilled?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Sure, you raise a great point, on the job training
is one of those great ways to really learn what
you need to do in a particular job. I think
there's a wide range of ways though that if you
are currently unemployed and you're looking for a job, that
you can build some of those skills. There are certainly
(26:55):
free resources out there. They're kind of low cost online
training options as well, and I think it's really first
about thinking what is the job that I am wanting
and understanding what are the sets of skills that I
need to have for that particular job, and then it's
(27:19):
really about being able to demonstrate that through an application
process and through an interview process. What I think we
sometimes do as people searching for jobs, we might limit
the applicability of some of the skills because they don't
match exactly to what is said. But being able to
(27:40):
translate what you've done and the skills you've acquired over
the years to whatever is needed in a particular open
job is one of the things that's really important. So again,
training is key for certain skills that you simply do
not have, but being able to translate what you do
have to how might apply to a new job is
(28:01):
another important thing to do if you're looking.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I love that. I love that advice. I hope a
lot of people hear that, because you know, that's one
of those things that you don't get taught, you know,
for the most part, And like you said, I think
that's one of the crucial ways to be successful when
switching jobs in our job market. I apologize we're at
the end of our time and I can't believe that
(28:27):
because I feel like I just started talking to you.
You are fascinating.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Oh oh, thank you, thank you. I've enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah I have too, So maybe we can talk again soon,
but for now I will have to say, uh, I
appreciate you coming on the show. Can you plug your website?
One more time for me.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Absolutely, So. Our website is Shuram dot org s h
r M dot org. Great, and I will also point
people to the Sharham Foundation Center for a Skills First Future,
which really focuses on how organizations can focus on the
skills that are needed in order to hire people and
(29:06):
really help with some of the labor shortages that we've
talked about.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I love that. I love that, And that website is
Can you get to there from the SHERM main website
or is that different?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Absolutely you can click on shirm Foundation from that main
site and you can go to the Center for a
Skills First Future.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Wonderful. Okay, well, thank you again for coming on the show.
Let's definitely keep in touch because I think we have
a lot more we can talk about.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Absolutely, that would be my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I hope you've enjoyed today's show. Thanks for tuning into
the show on your favorite local radio station. You can
now listen to this show or past shows through the
iheartapp or on iHeart dot com. Just search for Virginia
Focus under podcasts. I'm Rebecca Hughes with a Virginia News
Network and I'll be here next week on Virginia focus
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