March 14, 2025 • 28 mins
The current pushback against DEI initiatives is multifaceted, but one key shift is a move toward placing the responsibility on the individual rather than on organizations or systemic structures. A new book written by a Human Resources professional encourages everyone to embrace personal responsibility as the way to driving meaningful progress and creating a truly inclusive culture. On this episode, we're talking to Delphia Howze about her latest book titled "Including You!: Leading Inclusion From Where You Are".
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the show, Miss Howe's. I'm so glad you
could be with us today to talk about your book.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so very excited.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
So let's start by talking about what possessed you to
write this book.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
You know, I've been in this space for more than
twenty five years, human resources and managing workplace environments, and
over the years, I've seen a lot of a lot
of different things. And as a result, I said, you know,
I saw things happening consistently time and time again, just
(00:35):
in different types of situations, different scenarios, but the same
core concept of concern, and that concern was we didn't
know how to connect with one another. So I felt
that it was time to write a book. It's been
on my heart for probably five years, and people have
been asking me to just write something, and finally I
(00:56):
sat down and did it last year.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Okay, so about how long to take you to write
that book?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
It took me approximately a year, a full year of
just absolute focus to pull all of the thoughts together
to and get them down on paper.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Okay, all right, sounds like an overwhelmingly daunting challenge.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yes it was, Yes it was, and you know, add
that with you know, work and a business and grad
school and all of that, so you know, we just
keep going.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah, definitely, that sounds like a lot. So it sounds
like you, like me, are a forever student of humanity
and you like knowing what makes people tick but also
what causes them to not get along.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Right. Yes, absolutely, I think that's such. It's something we
all need to understand. We don't really pay attention to
it deeply, but I think it gives great value to humanity.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah, I think so too. And I think the best
example of the fact that it society and outward influences
is when you see two little ones, you know, no
matter where they come from, even if they don't speak
the same language, they can play because they just don't
see each other with any form of bias.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
So true, So very true. Can't we can learn so
much from our children?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, that's very true. I can definitely say that. So
let's talk about a couple of the points that I
understand are in your book. The first one being inclusion
is everyone's responsibility. Won't you talk to that for us?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yes? So my belief. You know, again, over these twenty
five or so years, you know, I've recognized that people
everyone's pointing the finger at everyone else to figure it
out right and to create the environment, when in reality,
it's everyone's responsibility. We all have experienced elements of exclusion
(02:57):
at some point in our life, whether it was back
in kindergart we are in first grade, high school, college,
at work, whatever the case may be. But at some
point in life we've experienced it and it didn't feel good.
I would struggle to have anyone say that exclusion made
them happy and excited and ready to be engaged in
(03:17):
that environment. And so that's a challenge. And so if
we recognize that that's a reality, that exclusion is not
a great feeling, why would we want it to be
in our workplaces, why would we want it to be
in our environments? So we have an opportunity, a personal
responsibility to do what we can to create more inclusive environments.
(03:38):
And that does not mean that we have to take
a grandiose course, we have to change our lives, We
have to change our mode of thinking. It's simple things
that recognize others as.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Humans right, treating them the way you treat yourself.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Right, absolutely, and even taking it a step further, treating
them how they recognized, recognizing how they want to be treated. Right,
So you know, you have the golden rule treat everyone
as you treat your as you would want to be treated. Absolutely,
But what if the other person, you know, has a
different expectation or a different point of understanding. Let's take
(04:15):
time to understand what that is so that we can
treat them how they want to be treated. So that's
where the opportunity for inclusion comes in, is recognizing that, yes,
it begins with me myself, but it also requires and
needs the other person. I like to say inclusion begins
with I, and it always needs you. If you spell
(04:36):
out the word, you need that I and that youth
that's true to be successful.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I love that. I love that. And obviously we've seen
a huge push towards DEI and and and then there
was the question of you know, are these DEI initiatives
doing what whethery're intended to, or are we, in some
form or fashion being biased against people. But because we're
(05:00):
not basing it on merit, there was a question about
do I comply with these things or not? What are
your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, you know, I think the attack on DEI is
very interesting. I think it goes in my opinion, it
goes back to the fact that we've not gotten to
a common understanding of what it means. Right. If you
ask if you separate the D, the E, and the
I diversity, equity and inclusion. If you separate those and
(05:29):
really define what each of them mean, then you know
they're indisputable in terms of how we can engage with
one another and the benefit. However, if you ask individuals
independently what does diversity mean to them, you're going to
get a different answer from every single person because they're
(05:50):
coming at it from their own perspectives, their own points
of understanding, their own value systems, and their own comfort levels.
And that's perfectly okay, But we point fingers at people
when their understanding doesn't match ours and then take it
a step further. If their understanding creates any element of exclusion,
then that's where we get to the point of okay,
(06:13):
DEI is a bad thing. So I think that over time,
you know, we've not found that common ground of understanding
for what we're talking about. In my book, I say,
you know what words matter, right, So we have to
be very clear, and so if you know my focus
has always been around bringing people together from all dimensions
(06:38):
of diversity, and the I in DEI I think is
the key inclusion. If we focus on inclusion, then we
find ways to value all of the wonderful and beautiful
diversity that's out there, and we have an opportunity to
really create more equitable opportunities for everyone.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Agreed. I think there also needs to be a lot
more emphasis on people's ability to agree to disagree. I
was raised, you know that that was something even within
your own family. You're going to have to have certain
things where you just agree that you disagree. And it
doesn't mean you can't be friends, and it doesn't mean
(07:19):
you can't love each other and have a strong relationship.
But it sounds it seems like nowadays, for whatever reason,
people have decided that they pick a hill and they
die on it, and could be a culture thing, it
could be a political thing, but they're willing to you know,
(07:41):
burn bridges, Yeah, fall.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
On the sword for it. Yeah, you're absolutely right, And
I think that's another part of the problem. We're not
to your point, we're not willing to meet in the middle,
you know, individuals just as a whole or in general,
I should say, individuals believe what they able and they
hold on to it, and if anyone dares to trample
(08:05):
on that or have a different perspective, it causes a
point of discomfort. Now, we've become very comfortable with staying
in our silos environments and not running towards the center,
not running towards the opportunity to learn about other people,
and I think that that is a huge miss for us.
(08:26):
You know, if we get back to the mindset of
human centric integrity, that requires us to engage with.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Others, right because you can have community, but if your
community is filled with people just like you, then you're
lacking that diversity thing. So I feel like people need
to seek out people who disagree with them on purpose.
And yet I don't know that's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
What do you think, Yeah, I think it's I think
it's happening in pockets. I don't think it's happening as
much as we needed to happen right now. We know,
you know, you can't see the world from just one
a one dimensional view. We have to be able to
see it from all views and from all perspectives, and
that's why we meet other people. I think that when
(09:11):
we create a space where it's safe for people to
be vulnerable and you know, feel comfortable with engaging with
others that don't agree with them. We'll get there. But
right now, where we are in society, my belief is
that we don't feel that safety and that trust that
(09:34):
allows us to be vulnerable to do so.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Okay, now let me ask you this. I may challenge
that thought just a little bit, and I'm going to
get your opinion on it. I know in the pre
interview stuff that you sent, one of the things that
talks about is psychological safety. You call it a non
negotiable and I can see where that you know, can
be very, very important, although I think it's almost more
(10:00):
important rather than the safety portion to have resilience because
you're not going to be safe all the time.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Correct. I don't disagree with you. I do not disagree
with you at all. And safety is in the mind
of the beholder, right, that is definitely in the mind
of the beholder, And in every environment there are going
to be threats that, you know, go against that safety.
How do we manage that in a way that's resilient,
(10:29):
whereas we come out on the other side that hasn't
ostracized others, and that hasn't punitively, you know, engaged others
to where we now cannot build bridges. I agree with you.
Resilience is a part of it, and we have to
(10:50):
figure out how to manage that effectively.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, I mean, I do think safety is important too,
don't get me wrong. I just know that in the
world we live in the world as it always has been.
You need to have your areas of safety, but you
need to go into the rest of the world outside
of what you know is safety with a resilience that
even if something opposes me or doesn't agree or whatever,
(11:18):
it's not going to destroy me. And I don't have
to destroy them making them think my.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Way correct, absolutely correct, And you know, we have to
we have to give ourselves and each other a little
bit of grace to be able to say that that's okay.
We don't have to your point that you said earlier,
we do not have to agree on everything, but at
least let's get to the point where we, you know,
respect the different perspectives that are out there so that
(11:47):
we can build bridges. There's a thought process that you know,
how do we get from judging an individual to actually
valuing an individual right, And the way to do that
is by first, you know, accepting the fact that people
have their own perspectives and that it's okay. But once
(12:07):
we're able to accept that, then we can find the
opportunity to respect it. Right, we accept it, then we
respect it, and then we can get to the point
of valuing. So it's a process.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I love that, And I think again, this tendency right
now to stick with the people most familiar to you
actually is one of the biggest disservices. You know, even
if you're yelling from your camp DEI diversity inquisive, if
you're not actually out there doing it, you know, then
(12:41):
you're still not You're not walking the walk.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
We need to go out and and make it a
point to talk to people that we wouldn't normally see
ourselves reaching out to.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Right right, and and you know, think about the world.
There's so many people that we just just know about
and their stories can enrich our lives in ways that
we would never ever expect them to. So how the
value of you know, I won't even say the EI,
but the value of including other perspectives in our world
(13:17):
is so very essential. Again for humanity and for us
to get along and be productive and successful as we
move forward in this life.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Right, And I think, no matter whether you're talking about
someone who grew up rural area and has always is
going to live there till they die, you know who
maybe disagrees with some ideologies in city life, whether we're
talking about lifestyle and gender and things of that, whether
we're talking religion, politics, it doesn't matter. If you're not
(13:49):
trying to not only talk to those people and get
to know them on a personal level in a friendly way,
you're not going to realize how similar experiences have been.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Absolutely, absolutely I agree, and you know, I love what
you said. You brought up the point of similarities. Doctor
Roosevelt Thomas, who's no longer with us, but he was
a pioneer in the space of, you know, creating more
inclusive environments and recognizing the beauty of diversity. He often said,
provided a definition that's of diversity, that says it refers
(14:25):
to the mixture of differences and similarities and related tensions
and complexions I'm sorry, complexities that can exist among the
elements of any mixture. Right, So it's differences and similarities,
it's We're not only looking at you know, another individual
or another entity to say, okay, you belong over there
(14:46):
your other We're finding ways to pull that in again,
getting to that point of inclusion right now.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
I love your point about a sense of belonging becoming
a driver of performance. Can you talk about that?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, So, when you think about it, a sense of
belonging means that you are able. An individual is able
to be in an environment, feel comfortable, feel connected, feel
valued within that environment. And how do we create that
space for individuals to make sure that that sense of
(15:23):
belonging moves us closer to productivity when you feel that
you belong in Research has told us this time and
time again. Individuals who feel that they belong and are
valued and welcomed and recognized in their environment are more
productive because they're more willing to give of themselves. They're
(15:45):
more willing to be vulnerable, they're more willing to ask questions,
they're comfortable in doing so because they know that they
at their core, are valued. So that sense of belonging
drives productivity in such a profound way that you know,
it can't it can really can't be disputed. You know,
if we really think about it from anyone who wants
(16:08):
to dispute it, Think about it from the standpoint of
that is those times when you have not felt welcomed
in an environment, how quickly did you want to leave? Oh?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, yeah, that's a quick one.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
You know, when you when you don't feel welcome, you
want to get out of there, and you're not you're
not thinking about being productive or helping that environment to
be successful. You know, you want to get out of
there and get to a place of comfort.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Right right of course, especially you know, not only ideology
if you feel different, but especially for some reason you
feel like you're being physically threatened, you know what I'm saying, Like,
even if you aren't being but you feel that way,
you know, And and and that's what my next point is.
Sometimes people develop a bias, let's just call it that
(16:57):
about a certain group of people if they only have
had exposure to one or few people in whatever group
and it was negative. Yeah, and they take that trauma
and they they put that on the whole community of
those people. Obviously, healing that would be good, But how
(17:20):
does that or do you think it can also change
the idea that will eliminate that bias?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yes, yes, so, yeah, you know, I'm thinking about that
because what comes to mind is confirmation bias. Right, we
have an idea of perspective of a person or a
group or a thing, right, and you know, you get
one small glimmer that confirms that negative bias, and then
it's stuck with us forever.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Can that be changed? Absolutely? It requires work on the
on the individual that has the bias to you know,
really identify where that bias has come from, how is
it showing up, who is it impacting, and how they
can mitigate it as they move forward. So I think
(18:09):
that it can be shift. I do believe that, but
it requires some very diligent self reflection in order to
accomplish that. Because as soon as something one action, one
behavior confirms what we think we believed through that through
a biased lens, which we all have and we're not
(18:32):
wrong for having them. The question is what do we
do about it? How do we mitigate the negative outcomes
of those biases so that we can continue to build relationships.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, I love that answer. I love that, and I
think part of that work, like you said, it has
to be a self awareness, which I think very few
people have these days. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
As humans, we have some opportunities to look at ourselves.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah. Yeah. And self awareness is hard because somebody holding
the mirror up and you seeing your ugly parts that
you don't normally see. That is a difficult thing. Been there,
done that. But I also think that there's something to
be said for part of that healing process. You again,
you have to actively go out and seek out the
very people that you are biased against and make new friends.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yes, and learn and willing to learn and understand things
you know, and let other people be as they are. Right. Oftentimes, again,
we get in our comfort zone and we think that
the world needs to acquiesce to us. That's not the case.
There's benefit in learning how the world presents and how
(19:45):
others present so that we can build those those opportunities
for building relationships.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Right, And I to it draws to mind my own
parenting challenges because my kids are ADHD and autistic. Okay,
so we've had our challenges. They're I know, you're not
supposed to say it a high functioning autistic, but you know,
once we had diagnoses and understood, then there was this
(20:14):
push by them, you know, well, then it's excusable when
I behave this way and it's like, hmm, it's understandable,
but not excusable. There is a big difference there. You
still have to learn to live amongst other people who
will never take the time to find out that you
struggle with this, and who will judge you, you know,
(20:36):
based on how you decide to handle these obstacles that
you deal with. And I'm not always going to be
here to advocate for you. So learning to live amongst
those that we feel challenged by, I think is one
of the biggest challenges and one that I personally think
society has failed a bit. I think we're starting to
(20:58):
turn it around, but I think we've failed a bit.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, well, you know, I love what I love that
it's excusable but not I'm sorry, it's understandable but not excusable. Right,
the behaviors of others, we can if we take time
to at least begin to understand them, right, at least
begin to understand them, we can get a new found
appreciation for them, not necessarily to excuse inappropriate or bad behavior,
(21:23):
but to really find a way to build a bridge,
to find a different pathway to engage right instead of
automatically shunning individuals. Now we're bringing people into the fold
because we can understand how, why and when things happen.
But now we can navigate it in a different way.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Right, And I think we're seeing that, like I said,
in so many aspects of life. I mean, the police
are having to learn how to deal with a person
who's autistic and how those view the world. The autistic
person also needs to be taught how the appropriate ways
to deal with the cop. You know what I'm saying.
(22:07):
It has to go both ways.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yes, yes, definitely agree.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So what part.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
What role?
Speaker 1 (22:15):
I guess I should say obviously parents, this is a
huge crucial thing for them. But a lot of parents
don't realize that. But when we talk about the workplace,
is it all of management's role only top of management's role?
Is it everybody's individual role? I mean who bears this responsibility?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, I submit to you and everyone. That is everyone's role. Right,
Everyone can stand for inclusion. I mean literally anyone can
do it. Anyone. It's not the responsibility of human resources.
Of course, they have the responsibility for human capital and policies, practices, procedures,
all of those, but that's a reality, but it's not
(22:58):
their sole responsibility. It's not the sole responsibility of the
CEO or president of an organization, nor midline managers, nor
is it the responsibility of frontline employees entry level employees.
It is, truly, in my opinion and from where success
has been recognized, it's the responsibility of everyone. Everyone should
(23:21):
be held accountable for creating inclusive environments and everyone can
do it. And again, it's not something that we have
to you know, shift our values, take extra classes on,
do anything that's outside of our comfort zone. But what
we do need to focus on is recognizing that we
(23:43):
play a part in it.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Great. What role do you think social media has played
in not only exposing the vast differences between people's thoughts
about things, you know, it also can expel the similarities,
but sometimes we don't pay as much attention to those.
But more so, do you think it is a true
(24:07):
statement to say that social media has caused people to
take things they believe and instead of being open minded,
they make that such a firm part of their identity
that that is part of what's causing the friction.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Yeah, you know, I think social media has caused you know,
it's wonderful and beautiful if we use it responsibly. But
I think that unfortunately, many people utilize social media as
a compass. Right, you get information quickly. We know that
(24:45):
algorithm algorithms feed you what they think you want to see,
so when you look for things, you find it, so
that gives you confirmation of potentially not so great things.
And the unfortunate thing is many people don't take time
to go and do the research to confirm that, you know,
(25:09):
what they found on social media was realistic and in
true even true? Right, how many pieces of misinformation and
disinformation have been provided via social media that you know
have caused such negative outcomes?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, And being a person who's worked in the newsroom
for the past almost twenty years, that's even a problem.
In newsrooms, we even have plenty of reporters who will
take what someone else says as the gospel truth without
investigating for themselves.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, that piece is missing,
and that's unfortunate because you know, misinformation, disinformation causes oo,
it's detrimental. I do believe it's it's it's it's an
evil thing.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah, agreed. I'm going to ask you one final question
because we're probably at the end of our time. I'm
just curious, and you are the expert here. Is there
anything else the audience needs to know that I just
didn't know to ask you about.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
You know, I think that the you know. With regard
to the book, it's it's a great book. I read it,
and I think that many people will be surprised in
reading it to recognize that they the examples are real
world examples, and that means that we can do this.
(26:43):
We can literally do this. It's not something that we
have to wait for everyone else to teach us to
figure out. We know from a personal standpoint how it
feels to not be included. Everyone does, and so if
we take the responsibility to figure out how do we
(27:05):
ensure that others don't have that experience in our presence,
whether it's at work or in a community, whatever the
case may be. If we take that responsibility, we can
have such a wonderful environment.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. That's one hundred percent.
Moving forward, Let's talk about your book a little more.
Where can people find it? If you will give us
the name of it again as well?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Sure the name of the book is including you, leading
inclusion from where you are. It can be found on Amazon.
I have an audiobook as well. You can find it
at Barnes and Noble bookstores. You can find it on
my website Deecattle Solutions dot com. Yeah, so it's definitely
(27:57):
out there.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Great, So it's pretty much everywhere. That's good to know.
Do you have a website as well?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
I do. The website is d How's d is and
David h Owze Solutions dot com.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Well, thank you so much for your time and for
sharing your your wisdom that you've learned, you know, through
your experiences and your perspective and all those things. And
thank you for writing this book. Hopefully it will make
a difference.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yes, I hope. So, thank you so much for having
me on and I appreciate the time that you spent
with me.
Welcome to the show, Miss Howe's. I'm so glad you
could be with us today to talk about your book.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so very excited.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
So let's start by talking about what possessed you to
write this book.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
You know, I've been in this space for more than
twenty five years, human resources and managing workplace environments, and
over the years, I've seen a lot of a lot
of different things. And as a result, I said, you know,
I saw things happening consistently time and time again, just
(00:35):
in different types of situations, different scenarios, but the same
core concept of concern, and that concern was we didn't
know how to connect with one another. So I felt
that it was time to write a book. It's been
on my heart for probably five years, and people have
been asking me to just write something, and finally I
(00:56):
sat down and did it last year.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Okay, so about how long to take you to write
that book?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
It took me approximately a year, a full year of
just absolute focus to pull all of the thoughts together
to and get them down on paper.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Okay, all right, sounds like an overwhelmingly daunting challenge.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yes it was, Yes it was, and you know, add
that with you know, work and a business and grad
school and all of that, so you know, we just
keep going.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah, definitely, that sounds like a lot. So it sounds
like you, like me, are a forever student of humanity
and you like knowing what makes people tick but also
what causes them to not get along.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Right. Yes, absolutely, I think that's such. It's something we
all need to understand. We don't really pay attention to
it deeply, but I think it gives great value to humanity.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah, I think so too. And I think the best
example of the fact that it society and outward influences
is when you see two little ones, you know, no
matter where they come from, even if they don't speak
the same language, they can play because they just don't
see each other with any form of bias.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
So true, So very true. Can't we can learn so
much from our children?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, that's very true. I can definitely say that. So
let's talk about a couple of the points that I
understand are in your book. The first one being inclusion
is everyone's responsibility. Won't you talk to that for us?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yes? So my belief. You know, again, over these twenty
five or so years, you know, I've recognized that people
everyone's pointing the finger at everyone else to figure it
out right and to create the environment, when in reality,
it's everyone's responsibility. We all have experienced elements of exclusion
(02:57):
at some point in our life, whether it was back
in kindergart we are in first grade, high school, college,
at work, whatever the case may be. But at some
point in life we've experienced it and it didn't feel good.
I would struggle to have anyone say that exclusion made
them happy and excited and ready to be engaged in
(03:17):
that environment. And so that's a challenge. And so if
we recognize that that's a reality, that exclusion is not
a great feeling, why would we want it to be
in our workplaces, why would we want it to be
in our environments? So we have an opportunity, a personal
responsibility to do what we can to create more inclusive environments.
(03:38):
And that does not mean that we have to take
a grandiose course, we have to change our lives, We
have to change our mode of thinking. It's simple things
that recognize others as.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Humans right, treating them the way you treat yourself.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Right, absolutely, and even taking it a step further, treating
them how they recognized, recognizing how they want to be treated. Right,
So you know, you have the golden rule treat everyone
as you treat your as you would want to be treated. Absolutely,
But what if the other person, you know, has a
different expectation or a different point of understanding. Let's take
(04:15):
time to understand what that is so that we can
treat them how they want to be treated. So that's
where the opportunity for inclusion comes in, is recognizing that, yes,
it begins with me myself, but it also requires and
needs the other person. I like to say inclusion begins
with I, and it always needs you. If you spell
(04:36):
out the word, you need that I and that youth
that's true to be successful.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I love that. I love that. And obviously we've seen
a huge push towards DEI and and and then there
was the question of you know, are these DEI initiatives
doing what whethery're intended to, or are we, in some
form or fashion being biased against people. But because we're
(05:00):
not basing it on merit, there was a question about
do I comply with these things or not? What are
your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, you know, I think the attack on DEI is
very interesting. I think it goes in my opinion, it
goes back to the fact that we've not gotten to
a common understanding of what it means. Right. If you
ask if you separate the D, the E, and the
I diversity, equity and inclusion. If you separate those and
(05:29):
really define what each of them mean, then you know
they're indisputable in terms of how we can engage with
one another and the benefit. However, if you ask individuals
independently what does diversity mean to them, you're going to
get a different answer from every single person because they're
(05:50):
coming at it from their own perspectives, their own points
of understanding, their own value systems, and their own comfort levels.
And that's perfectly okay, But we point fingers at people
when their understanding doesn't match ours and then take it
a step further. If their understanding creates any element of exclusion,
then that's where we get to the point of okay,
(06:13):
DEI is a bad thing. So I think that over time,
you know, we've not found that common ground of understanding
for what we're talking about. In my book, I say,
you know what words matter, right, So we have to
be very clear, and so if you know my focus
has always been around bringing people together from all dimensions
(06:38):
of diversity, and the I in DEI I think is
the key inclusion. If we focus on inclusion, then we
find ways to value all of the wonderful and beautiful
diversity that's out there, and we have an opportunity to
really create more equitable opportunities for everyone.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Agreed. I think there also needs to be a lot
more emphasis on people's ability to agree to disagree. I
was raised, you know that that was something even within
your own family. You're going to have to have certain
things where you just agree that you disagree. And it
doesn't mean you can't be friends, and it doesn't mean
(07:19):
you can't love each other and have a strong relationship.
But it sounds it seems like nowadays, for whatever reason,
people have decided that they pick a hill and they
die on it, and could be a culture thing, it
could be a political thing, but they're willing to you know,
(07:41):
burn bridges, Yeah, fall.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
On the sword for it. Yeah, you're absolutely right, And
I think that's another part of the problem. We're not
to your point, we're not willing to meet in the middle,
you know, individuals just as a whole or in general,
I should say, individuals believe what they able and they
hold on to it, and if anyone dares to trample
(08:05):
on that or have a different perspective, it causes a
point of discomfort. Now, we've become very comfortable with staying
in our silos environments and not running towards the center,
not running towards the opportunity to learn about other people,
and I think that that is a huge miss for us.
(08:26):
You know, if we get back to the mindset of
human centric integrity, that requires us to engage with.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Others, right because you can have community, but if your
community is filled with people just like you, then you're
lacking that diversity thing. So I feel like people need
to seek out people who disagree with them on purpose.
And yet I don't know that's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
What do you think, Yeah, I think it's I think
it's happening in pockets. I don't think it's happening as
much as we needed to happen right now. We know,
you know, you can't see the world from just one
a one dimensional view. We have to be able to
see it from all views and from all perspectives, and
that's why we meet other people. I think that when
(09:11):
we create a space where it's safe for people to
be vulnerable and you know, feel comfortable with engaging with
others that don't agree with them. We'll get there. But
right now, where we are in society, my belief is
that we don't feel that safety and that trust that
(09:34):
allows us to be vulnerable to do so.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Okay, now let me ask you this. I may challenge
that thought just a little bit, and I'm going to
get your opinion on it. I know in the pre
interview stuff that you sent, one of the things that
talks about is psychological safety. You call it a non
negotiable and I can see where that you know, can
be very, very important, although I think it's almost more
(10:00):
important rather than the safety portion to have resilience because
you're not going to be safe all the time.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Correct. I don't disagree with you. I do not disagree
with you at all. And safety is in the mind
of the beholder, right, that is definitely in the mind
of the beholder, And in every environment there are going
to be threats that, you know, go against that safety.
How do we manage that in a way that's resilient,
(10:29):
whereas we come out on the other side that hasn't
ostracized others, and that hasn't punitively, you know, engaged others
to where we now cannot build bridges. I agree with you.
Resilience is a part of it, and we have to
(10:50):
figure out how to manage that effectively.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, I mean, I do think safety is important too,
don't get me wrong. I just know that in the
world we live in the world as it always has been.
You need to have your areas of safety, but you
need to go into the rest of the world outside
of what you know is safety with a resilience that
even if something opposes me or doesn't agree or whatever,
(11:18):
it's not going to destroy me. And I don't have
to destroy them making them think my.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Way correct, absolutely correct, And you know, we have to
we have to give ourselves and each other a little
bit of grace to be able to say that that's okay.
We don't have to your point that you said earlier,
we do not have to agree on everything, but at
least let's get to the point where we, you know,
respect the different perspectives that are out there so that
(11:47):
we can build bridges. There's a thought process that you know,
how do we get from judging an individual to actually
valuing an individual right, And the way to do that
is by first, you know, accepting the fact that people
have their own perspectives and that it's okay. But once
(12:07):
we're able to accept that, then we can find the
opportunity to respect it. Right, we accept it, then we
respect it, and then we can get to the point
of valuing. So it's a process.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I love that, And I think again, this tendency right
now to stick with the people most familiar to you
actually is one of the biggest disservices. You know, even
if you're yelling from your camp DEI diversity inquisive, if
you're not actually out there doing it, you know, then
(12:41):
you're still not You're not walking the walk.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
We need to go out and and make it a
point to talk to people that we wouldn't normally see
ourselves reaching out to.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Right right, and and you know, think about the world.
There's so many people that we just just know about
and their stories can enrich our lives in ways that
we would never ever expect them to. So how the
value of you know, I won't even say the EI,
but the value of including other perspectives in our world
(13:17):
is so very essential. Again for humanity and for us
to get along and be productive and successful as we
move forward in this life.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Right, And I think, no matter whether you're talking about
someone who grew up rural area and has always is
going to live there till they die, you know who
maybe disagrees with some ideologies in city life, whether we're
talking about lifestyle and gender and things of that, whether
we're talking religion, politics, it doesn't matter. If you're not
(13:49):
trying to not only talk to those people and get
to know them on a personal level in a friendly way,
you're not going to realize how similar experiences have been.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Absolutely, absolutely I agree, and you know, I love what
you said. You brought up the point of similarities. Doctor
Roosevelt Thomas, who's no longer with us, but he was
a pioneer in the space of, you know, creating more
inclusive environments and recognizing the beauty of diversity. He often said,
provided a definition that's of diversity, that says it refers
(14:25):
to the mixture of differences and similarities and related tensions
and complexions I'm sorry, complexities that can exist among the
elements of any mixture. Right, So it's differences and similarities,
it's We're not only looking at you know, another individual
or another entity to say, okay, you belong over there
(14:46):
your other We're finding ways to pull that in again,
getting to that point of inclusion right now.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
I love your point about a sense of belonging becoming
a driver of performance. Can you talk about that?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, So, when you think about it, a sense of
belonging means that you are able. An individual is able
to be in an environment, feel comfortable, feel connected, feel
valued within that environment. And how do we create that
space for individuals to make sure that that sense of
(15:23):
belonging moves us closer to productivity when you feel that
you belong in Research has told us this time and
time again. Individuals who feel that they belong and are
valued and welcomed and recognized in their environment are more
productive because they're more willing to give of themselves. They're
(15:45):
more willing to be vulnerable, they're more willing to ask questions,
they're comfortable in doing so because they know that they
at their core, are valued. So that sense of belonging
drives productivity in such a profound way that you know,
it can't it can really can't be disputed. You know,
if we really think about it from anyone who wants
(16:08):
to dispute it, Think about it from the standpoint of
that is those times when you have not felt welcomed
in an environment, how quickly did you want to leave? Oh?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, yeah, that's a quick one.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
You know, when you when you don't feel welcome, you
want to get out of there, and you're not you're
not thinking about being productive or helping that environment to
be successful. You know, you want to get out of
there and get to a place of comfort.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Right right of course, especially you know, not only ideology
if you feel different, but especially for some reason you
feel like you're being physically threatened, you know what I'm saying, Like,
even if you aren't being but you feel that way,
you know, And and and that's what my next point is.
Sometimes people develop a bias, let's just call it that
(16:57):
about a certain group of people if they only have
had exposure to one or few people in whatever group
and it was negative. Yeah, and they take that trauma
and they they put that on the whole community of
those people. Obviously, healing that would be good, But how
(17:20):
does that or do you think it can also change
the idea that will eliminate that bias?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yes, yes, so, yeah, you know, I'm thinking about that
because what comes to mind is confirmation bias. Right, we
have an idea of perspective of a person or a
group or a thing, right, and you know, you get
one small glimmer that confirms that negative bias, and then
it's stuck with us forever.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Can that be changed? Absolutely? It requires work on the
on the individual that has the bias to you know,
really identify where that bias has come from, how is
it showing up, who is it impacting, and how they
can mitigate it as they move forward. So I think
(18:09):
that it can be shift. I do believe that, but
it requires some very diligent self reflection in order to
accomplish that. Because as soon as something one action, one
behavior confirms what we think we believed through that through
a biased lens, which we all have and we're not
(18:32):
wrong for having them. The question is what do we
do about it? How do we mitigate the negative outcomes
of those biases so that we can continue to build relationships.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, I love that answer. I love that, and I
think part of that work, like you said, it has
to be a self awareness, which I think very few
people have these days. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
As humans, we have some opportunities to look at ourselves.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah. Yeah. And self awareness is hard because somebody holding
the mirror up and you seeing your ugly parts that
you don't normally see. That is a difficult thing. Been there,
done that. But I also think that there's something to
be said for part of that healing process. You again,
you have to actively go out and seek out the
very people that you are biased against and make new friends.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yes, and learn and willing to learn and understand things
you know, and let other people be as they are. Right. Oftentimes, again,
we get in our comfort zone and we think that
the world needs to acquiesce to us. That's not the case.
There's benefit in learning how the world presents and how
(19:45):
others present so that we can build those those opportunities
for building relationships.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Right, And I to it draws to mind my own
parenting challenges because my kids are ADHD and autistic. Okay,
so we've had our challenges. They're I know, you're not
supposed to say it a high functioning autistic, but you know,
once we had diagnoses and understood, then there was this
(20:14):
push by them, you know, well, then it's excusable when
I behave this way and it's like, hmm, it's understandable,
but not excusable. There is a big difference there. You
still have to learn to live amongst other people who
will never take the time to find out that you
struggle with this, and who will judge you, you know,
(20:36):
based on how you decide to handle these obstacles that
you deal with. And I'm not always going to be
here to advocate for you. So learning to live amongst
those that we feel challenged by, I think is one
of the biggest challenges and one that I personally think
society has failed a bit. I think we're starting to
(20:58):
turn it around, but I think we've failed a bit.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, well, you know, I love what I love that
it's excusable but not I'm sorry, it's understandable but not excusable. Right,
the behaviors of others, we can if we take time
to at least begin to understand them, right, at least
begin to understand them, we can get a new found
appreciation for them, not necessarily to excuse inappropriate or bad behavior,
(21:23):
but to really find a way to build a bridge,
to find a different pathway to engage right instead of
automatically shunning individuals. Now we're bringing people into the fold
because we can understand how, why and when things happen.
But now we can navigate it in a different way.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Right, And I think we're seeing that, like I said,
in so many aspects of life. I mean, the police
are having to learn how to deal with a person
who's autistic and how those view the world. The autistic
person also needs to be taught how the appropriate ways
to deal with the cop. You know what I'm saying.
(22:07):
It has to go both ways.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yes, yes, definitely agree.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So what part.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
What role?
Speaker 1 (22:15):
I guess I should say obviously parents, this is a
huge crucial thing for them. But a lot of parents
don't realize that. But when we talk about the workplace,
is it all of management's role only top of management's role?
Is it everybody's individual role? I mean who bears this responsibility?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, I submit to you and everyone. That is everyone's role. Right,
Everyone can stand for inclusion. I mean literally anyone can
do it. Anyone. It's not the responsibility of human resources.
Of course, they have the responsibility for human capital and policies, practices, procedures,
all of those, but that's a reality, but it's not
(22:58):
their sole responsibility. It's not the sole responsibility of the
CEO or president of an organization, nor midline managers, nor
is it the responsibility of frontline employees entry level employees.
It is, truly, in my opinion and from where success
has been recognized, it's the responsibility of everyone. Everyone should
(23:21):
be held accountable for creating inclusive environments and everyone can
do it. And again, it's not something that we have
to you know, shift our values, take extra classes on,
do anything that's outside of our comfort zone. But what
we do need to focus on is recognizing that we
(23:43):
play a part in it.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Great. What role do you think social media has played
in not only exposing the vast differences between people's thoughts
about things, you know, it also can expel the similarities,
but sometimes we don't pay as much attention to those.
But more so, do you think it is a true
(24:07):
statement to say that social media has caused people to
take things they believe and instead of being open minded,
they make that such a firm part of their identity
that that is part of what's causing the friction.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Yeah, you know, I think social media has caused you know,
it's wonderful and beautiful if we use it responsibly. But
I think that unfortunately, many people utilize social media as
a compass. Right, you get information quickly. We know that
(24:45):
algorithm algorithms feed you what they think you want to see,
so when you look for things, you find it, so
that gives you confirmation of potentially not so great things.
And the unfortunate thing is many people don't take time
to go and do the research to confirm that, you know,
(25:09):
what they found on social media was realistic and in
true even true? Right, how many pieces of misinformation and
disinformation have been provided via social media that you know
have caused such negative outcomes?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, And being a person who's worked in the newsroom
for the past almost twenty years, that's even a problem.
In newsrooms, we even have plenty of reporters who will
take what someone else says as the gospel truth without
investigating for themselves.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, that piece is missing,
and that's unfortunate because you know, misinformation, disinformation causes oo,
it's detrimental. I do believe it's it's it's it's an
evil thing.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah, agreed. I'm going to ask you one final question
because we're probably at the end of our time. I'm
just curious, and you are the expert here. Is there
anything else the audience needs to know that I just
didn't know to ask you about.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
You know, I think that the you know. With regard
to the book, it's it's a great book. I read it,
and I think that many people will be surprised in
reading it to recognize that they the examples are real
world examples, and that means that we can do this.
(26:43):
We can literally do this. It's not something that we
have to wait for everyone else to teach us to
figure out. We know from a personal standpoint how it
feels to not be included. Everyone does, and so if
we take the responsibility to figure out how do we
(27:05):
ensure that others don't have that experience in our presence,
whether it's at work or in a community, whatever the
case may be. If we take that responsibility, we can
have such a wonderful environment.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. That's one hundred percent.
Moving forward, Let's talk about your book a little more.
Where can people find it? If you will give us
the name of it again as well?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Sure the name of the book is including you, leading
inclusion from where you are. It can be found on Amazon.
I have an audiobook as well. You can find it
at Barnes and Noble bookstores. You can find it on
my website Deecattle Solutions dot com. Yeah, so it's definitely
(27:57):
out there.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Great, So it's pretty much everywhere. That's good to know.
Do you have a website as well?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
I do. The website is d How's d is and
David h Owze Solutions dot com.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Well, thank you so much for your time and for
sharing your your wisdom that you've learned, you know, through
your experiences and your perspective and all those things. And
thank you for writing this book. Hopefully it will make
a difference.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yes, I hope. So, thank you so much for having
me on and I appreciate the time that you spent
with me.
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