March 28, 2025 • 28 mins
The American Society of Civil Engineers gave America a "C" on their latest report card. Results show more work and investment is needed to overcome decades of underinvestment in our transportation networks, water system, electric grid, and broadband capability. To learn more, we're speaking with Tom Smith, ENV SP, CAE, Executive Director, ASCE.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the show, mister Smith. I'm glad you could
join us today to talk about the nation's infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Thank you please to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
So why don't we start with letting the audience know
what makes you qualified to talk about this?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well, I'm the executive directive of the American Society of
Civil Engineers, and this is a nonprofit scientific educational association
that has been around for over one hundred and seventy years.
We were created back in eighteen fifty two, and we
develop and train and educate civil engineers so that we
can advance the public health, safety, and welfare.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Great, and why don't you give us a background about
infrastructure in the nation, because a lot of people might
not know where we started as a country when it
comes to infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Absolutely, and civil engineers sort of design, build, operate, and
maintain our civilization our infrastructure. This is our aviation, our bridges,
our broadband, all the things that we rely on for
our quality of life, our dams, drinking water, energy systems, levies, ports,
things like rail and roads and schools, even waste solid
(01:05):
waste and storm water and transit and wastewater. So all
of these things some of the things that we don't
necessarily think about every day, but that we rely on
when we turn on the lights or flush a toilet,
or turn on our drinking water or transportation systems and
so things that we really need for our quality of
life great.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
And I know back in the eighteen hundreds sometimes we
didn't have a whole lot of restrictions on things. As
a matter of fact, I just watched a documentary just
this past week about I'm trying to remember the disaster
it was, but basically the short form is the people
who designed the structure that failed weren't even architects. They
(01:45):
were like salespeople or something like that. And is that
part of why this organization exists?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Absolutely? You know, these are fairly complex systems, and there's
a lot of engineering and technos you behind our infrastructure,
and so things have changed a lot since the eighteen hundreds.
I mean, you know, obviously even back then there were
designing bridges. You've got things like the Brooklyn Bridge that
we still enjoy today that was built back in the
eighteen hundreds. But we have other infrastructure that's sober fifty
(02:16):
seventy five hundred years old and it's nearing the end
of its useful life, and a lot of times that's
because it hasn't been maintained the way it needs to be.
You might think about, you know, your home or your car,
and if you just go for a period of time
without maintaining it, even if it was a you know,
good quality at the time, it's not going to be
able to last over time and it's going to ultimately
(02:36):
need to be replaced. And so some of our infrastructure,
even from the eighteen hundreds, still serves us, but much
of it that hasn't been maintained needs to be replaced.
And so, you know, and we've certainly done that. A
lot of our infrastructure has been replaced, but there are
some examples that really continue to need a lot of attention.
(02:57):
And our report cord on America's infrastructure is it's called
that to the attention of the American public and to legislators,
you know, what's the condition of our infrastructure because we
really do rely on it for not only our quality
of life, but for life itself.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah, definitely, Now, when did this report card start? Like
is there a history behind that as well? And then
after you tell us that, we'll dive into what this
year's report cards is Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
We started doing this back in nineteen ninety eight and
we issue this every four years, and so, you know,
we wanted to make sure again that people understood the
condition of our infrastructure. Obviously, if you're worried about your health,
you're going to go to a doctor. If you want
to know about your infrastructure, you want to talk to
a civil engineer. And so we started pouring over data.
We brought together experts. In this case, you know, our
(03:45):
most recent report card, we have over fifty engineers and
infrastructure professionals who look at data and all these different
categories of infrastructure and just basically give it a sign
of a grade and something that's simple that everybody you
know can relate to, which is, you know, the normal
A through F grading system that we've all grown up with.
So that's that's the system that we've used.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Okay, I love that. And I assume since you're the
president of the society, you have a background in some
form of infrastructure before you got this job.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Right, Well, in my background as executive director of ASSE,
I believe it or not, I joined AS when I
was a school at the University of Virginia. In my
student chapter, I have a graduate degree in structural engineering,
but I went on to law school and practiced law
before joining ASSE at the General Council and then over
the years of different management positions and now the executive
(04:36):
director equivalent of a CEO for the association. Oh, and
we have one hundred and sixty Yeah, we have one
hundred and sixty thousand members in one hundred and seventy
seven countries, and so we are fairly large organization that develops,
you know, peer review journals and standards that get adopted
into building codes, and we put on conferences and continue
(04:57):
education programs. So we have over four hundred chapters at
universities with students involved in our association. So we're very
involved in advancing the profession and also the you know,
the technical aspects of this profession. And we also advocate
you know, we have people on the Hill of this
week who are advocating for research and investment in infrastructure.
(05:22):
So we've got a close to three hundred people that
will be on Capitol Hill today and tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Wow, that's awesome. That is awesome. So why don't we
dive into this year's report card? What can you tell
us about it?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Sure? This year the overall cumulative grade is a C.
So that's you know, that's kind of mediocres. That means
it requires attention. The good news is that that C
grade is higher than it was in twenty twenty one.
In twenty twenty one, the grade was a C minus,
and in twenty seventeen, four years prior, that grade was
(05:56):
a D plus. So twenty twenty one was the first
time we've gotten out of the D range since we've
been doing this report card since nineteen ninety eight, as
I mentioned, and so C is the highest grade we've had.
So that's you know, while you might not necessarily be
overly pleased when your child brings home a C, you know,
because that is mediocre, that does show improvement. So we
(06:19):
are going in the right direction. We have made improvement.
I will say on the flip side that of the
eighteen categories that we grade with our report card, nine
of those are in the D range. Still, so you know, Wei,
while there's you know, some celebration here, we have made progress,
we certainly have a long way to go.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Okay, can you break down those categories for us and
the grades associated?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Sure? You know, if you know, there's there's eighteen different categories.
And so there's as I mentioned, nine of those are
in the D range. Just to give you a sense
of the ones that are getting in that D which
is sort of poor or at risk, that's aviation, dams,
energy levees, roads, schools, storm water, transit, and wastewater. And
(07:05):
so of those b's, the lowest grades are you know,
some of those were D pluses. But the two that
are in the actually a D is storm water and transit,
So those are the lowest grades. Now on the flip
side of that, you know that there's a number of c's,
but there are two that are in the B range.
And so the very highest grade is ports and that
got a grade of a B and then the second
(07:25):
highest grade is rail that got to B minus. Now
while that's also good, you know, the rail grade and
a B minus is down from twenty twenty one. It
was a B in twenty twenty one. And you may
have seen, you know, we've had some incidents with rail
in twenty twenty three, remember the East Palestine with the Ohio.
With the freight movement, So in general our freight has
(07:47):
moved fairly efficiently, but we have had some incidents.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Okay, so in a perfect world, what what would it
take to get us to all a's and b's and
you know, at least a merit roll student if not generall.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yes, Uh, well, it takes a significant amount of investment.
I will say, you know, in the UH, in the
recent past, we did have some significant investment through the
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and some other legislation as well, uh
the BID you know, the Chips and Science Act, and
the Inflation Reduction Act. But there is there, there is
really significant investment that is required because we have kind
(08:25):
of kicked a can down the road for so long.
It's the number is about three seven three point seven
trillion dollars over the next ten years that's required to
really get our infrastructure to a good level. I will
say that that's not just cederal investment. You know that
that is also investment at the state and local level
and from the private sector. So I think what's you know,
(08:46):
it's really important is this idea of having a you know,
a national vision and and support that can be leveraged
with state and local support as well as private investment.
So I think it requires kind of that we say
all those tools in the tool box. That's going to
help solve this problem. And while there's a lot of
pressure on I understand, you know, with obviously with our
(09:06):
national budgets, we do need to recognize the importance of
our infrastructure. And the other thing we talk a lot
about is is you know, what what what are the
consequences of not investing in our infrastructure. And you know,
we we continue to see these more extreme weather events
that we're having to respond to, and we've seen them
across the country just in the past. You know, just
pick pick the last month much less the less you know,
(09:29):
six months where you look at wildfires or hurricanes or
floods and things that we need to be prepared for,
and when we react to them, it ends up being
far more expensive than when we prepare in advance for them. Again,
it's the same kind of thing in maintaining your home
or house or even the human body. Uh. You know,
the more we are proactive and ounce of prevention being
(09:49):
worth a pound of cure, you know, the more we'll
save ourselves. And studies have shown when you invest upfront
you can save up to thirteen dollars you know, in
trying to mitigate and recover from these disasters that we see,
so you know, we want to avoid that hidden tax.
We don't want to be paying on the back end
when we don't get anything for it. We'd rather, you know,
(10:11):
make investments up front. That's what powers are economy. It
creates jobs, it makes us globally competitive, and it's a
better use of our taxpayer dollars.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. How much would you
say population has an effect on that? And I ask
that with the thought in mind that you know, a
lot of things like roads and infrastructure and water and
all those things. You know, they're a lot more prevalent
in the larger cities. When you get out into rural areas,
you have more wells, and you have more septic tanks
(10:44):
and things that are more individualistic as far as that
type of thing goes, and that also can contribute to
storm water issues. The bigger the city, the more people
live there, the more concrete, the more things that prevent
that storm water from going directly back in to the ground,
because it has to go through a series of whatever
we've built to get there. Would things like dispersing the population,
(11:10):
you know, more so into rural areas, which could be
aided by more remote work. Would that be helpful do
you think in solving.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Some of this Well, that's a good point. I mean,
demographics certainly play a part in this. You know, our
population has increased pretty significantly since much of the matter
of fact, it's doubled since much of this infrastructure was designed,
and so a lot of times we're trying to, you know,
use infrastructure to carry far more you know, trips for example,
on roads or bridges than might have originally been designed for.
(11:42):
And the more people that move into cities, you know
that the more infrastructure that's required. Now there can be
some efficiencies from that. Obviously, when we use transit, that's
a pretty effective way of moving people in urban areas,
but as you see people working remotely, as you mentioned,
you know that also requires you still need your road
networks to be you know, for folks who are living
(12:04):
in rural areas and you need broadband. I mean that's
one of the categories that we're grading the broad broadband,
which this is the first time we've actually had a
grade for broadband. It got a grade A of a
C plus. And you know there's there's certain areas that
don't have I think there's ten percent of household households
that without a broadband subscription, so that you know there
there there's a lot of different factors that come into
(12:27):
play here, and I think you raise some good points.
The other point is a lot of the populated areas
people like to move towards coasts, and we have seen
you know, with sea level rise, you know, some obviously
additional impacts there. So as we're now designing infrastructure, we're
trying to design infrastructure that's going to last for the
(12:47):
next hundred years, and so we need to know what
do we want to anticipate for the sea level at
you know, certain points in time, our temperatures or you know,
rainfall data. That's all important information that the engineering community
needs to get from, you know, as we connect with
the science community. And so that's also very important. As
(13:08):
we're developing standards that get adopted into building codes, we're
trying to learn from how our infrastructure performs after a
hurricane or a flood or you know, or a wild
fire or tornado. You know, pick your issue and try
to design so that we're better, more resilient for the future.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Okay, I love that, And can you speak to things
like you know, when you go into the historical district
of certain cities. They may still have roads that are
paved with brick and they're not particularly even, but they're
you know, the brick is all still there and it
looks nice. Or you know, there's documentaries out there that
(13:48):
talk about different Roman roads that are still not only
in use, but you know, still look like they're just
holding strong. And then here we are looking at crumbling infrastructure.
Can you kind of compare and contrast those things for
us and help us understand why our roads aren't Roman
roads so to speak.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, I think, gosh, I think you know, we afe
we have civil engineering historic landmarks all over the country
and all over the world, and I think that one
of the first roads, I think there's one in Egypt
that we have marked out there. But yeah, so they're there,
and as you point out, you'll see cobblestone roads, and
we've got them here and you know, in old Town Alexandria,
(14:29):
or in Washington, d C. And various areas around the
country because you know, there's a historical heritage associated with
these things, and we do like that as well, but
sometimes that's not necessarily as efficient as we might like.
If you're trying to drive you know, fifty miles an
hour or more across some of those. You know, a
cobblestone road, you're really going to feel it. So you know,
(14:51):
we have, you know, believe it or not, there's an
enormous amount of engineering that goes into our roadways, you know,
just the foundations, the soils all have to be tested,
and the types of materials that are used, concrete and asphalts.
I mean, I'm looking out at our parking lot here
at a ste and we have an our asphalt parking
lot is is mixed with crushed tires, and we have
(15:12):
two different types of permeable pavements that are in our
parking lot as well, so that the water can seep
through and then and that the earth can more naturally
retain and treat that water before it filters off into
in our case, a difficult run and then ultimately the
Potomac River, the Chestbeake Bay, and the Atlantic Ocean. So
you know, there are things that we want to do that.
You know, water is always a big factor, and the
(15:34):
freeze and thaw, you know, depending on the temperature conditions,
and as we've got seismic conditions, there's a lot of
things that we're trying to consider as we're designing this infrastructure.
So it's it's quite a bit of engineering. It's quite
a bit more complex, and I think people might realize
and of course, much of the infrastructure you don't even see.
I mean all the pipes, you know, for drinking water
(15:54):
and wastewater, and as you mentioned, in rural areas, you
might be you know, well, in septic fields. I mean,
all of that is there's engineering that goes into that,
and we do just need to be conscious of the
importance of it and the need to maintain it and
invest in it.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Can you speak to
any new technological advances that are in the works when
it comes to infrastructure? Are you aware of certain things
that we can be anticipating.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Gosh, yeah, there's just every sort of everything seems new
in many ways that you know, we spent a whole
you know, I was, I was on a panel yesterday.
We were talking about artificial intelligence and uh, you know,
and the use of sensors so that we got more
data so that we can manage these assets and really
understand how our infrastructure is performing. Obviously, you hear a
(16:40):
lot about you know, connected and autonomous vehicles, and we're
connecting our vehicles to the infrastructure so that we can
be smarter. I mean, how many times have you sat
at a stoplight and wondered why there are no cars
going in the other direction while you sat there, you know,
kicking out exhaust and while while you're not even moving.
So you know, there's the more efficient ways that we
can do things, and we have technology to do that.
(17:01):
It's just that we don't always have the resources that
we need to implement that technology. So, yes, there's an
enormous amount of technology in smart buildings and smart cities
and so, you know, and students are being trained on
the you know, the application of technology, and it's because
it's integrated into our systems. And I should also mention
that these engineering systems are also integrated into nature. So
(17:25):
we've got technology and natural resources that we're kind of
all connecting together. So it's an exciting time to be
an engineer, no question about that. A lot of it's
a complex time, but it's a really important work that's
being done. But it does need a lot of investment
and you know, continued operation and maintenance for our systems.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, definitely. And I know one of the takeaways that
I got in prepping for this interview it talks about
sustained investments and prioritizing resiliency. What does resiliency look like
when it comes to infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, that's a topic that we talk about a lot.
It's you know, this idea of being able to recover
from events. You know, so we're trying to design for windloads,
ice loads, snow loads. You know, what are the rainfall
data that we have, you know, we have we have
a tornado chapter in our standards. We have we're trying
to figure out, you know, whether it's a hurricane, a flood,
(18:22):
what's as I mentioned earlier about sea levels. All those
are things that we're trying to make sure that we're
prepared for so that our infrastructure is resilient so when
we get hit with those things that we can then recover,
bounce back from it and not just have it all
wiped out and then come in and replace it. So,
you know, there's a lot of analysis to go goes
(18:42):
into making sure that it's resilient and can respond and recover,
just like you know, a human being needs to be resilient.
I mean sometimes things don't go well, and you've got
to be able to bounce back. Our infrastructure does as well,
so we spend a fair amount of time, you know,
how to figure out how to invest up front. So
as I'm mentioned earlier, the dollar you spend up front
(19:02):
will save you up to thirteen dollars at the back end.
So we want to be resilient so that we don't
you know, end up having to have problems not only
replacing infrastructure, but the lost money in our economy. The
bridge is taken out or remember following Hurriscane Katrina, I mean,
look at what happened after. Not only do you know,
you know, well over eighteen hundred lives had been lost,
(19:25):
but the impact on the economy and property, it's everything.
It was just been you know, it's just a heartbreaking
loss of life and property following that event. And you know,
we have many events like that, not at that scale
but neverth but at a smaller scale, and we want
to be prepared for that.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Okay, that makes sense. Does that include things like the
thing that comes to mind at first is you know,
when you have a snow event, yes you want your
roads to sustain that, but sometimes the damage comes from
the snow plow. Does your group also work with, you know,
(20:03):
the people who have to clean up from these different
disasters in the in the equipment that might be used
that may cause damage, it requires more extensive repair versus
if you had come up with a solution that didn't
cause quite as much damage. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yes, I know exactly, of course, yes, absolutely. We work
with other associations as well. Where the American Society Civil
Engineers were closely aligned. The fact I was emailing with
their second director this morning, American Public Works Association and
many of our members actually are are running public works
operations for different localities. So the people who are sending
(20:42):
out the snowplows and maintaining our streets. Yes, we're very
closely connected and coordinating with them. And you know what
you put down, you know, if you're living up in
the in the north and you have to you know,
you might be pre treating your roads and then you
know what you were going to put down after it snows,
and how that packs the environment, and what materials that
(21:02):
you're used that is also carefully evaluated. You know, we've
got conferences where people are discussing just what you're putting
on your roads, and you know experts who are evaluating
the impact on the environment. So and yes, as you
mentioned the plows, the weight of the plows, and the
types of plows that are being used, the techniques that
they're using, where to put the snow, all that is
(21:25):
carefully thought out in advance, and we continue to learn
and try to do it better.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Gotcha. Now, I know my husband has an engineer's brain
as well, So I know, problem solving is like, you know,
the thing, it's like the most favorite thing that leads
people into that realm of study and work. Is there
ever a time where, yeah, you might find a solution,
(21:51):
but the solution ultimately is not what's best because the
environment or you know, the earth itself wherever you are,
is so much more powerful than anything we can create
that it just doesn't make sense. Does that ever happen?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
You know? I think engineering is there's a certain amount
of trial and error in engineering. We'd like to do
most of that in a laboratory as best we can,
and we you know, got universities around the country in
different places that have you know, even in you know,
wind testing and seismic testing and a lot of things
that are done to try and pre test infrastructure. But
(22:29):
and we'd also learn, you know, and there's a lot
of analysis that's been done on infrastructure over the over
the past years to try and figure out what works that,
what doesn't work, what has a you know, negative impact.
Obviously things like pfast and forever chemicals. You know, we're
learning more about that, and we're now trying to figure
out how to you know, how to treat uh, you know,
whether it's waste water, drinking water, and trying to make
(22:51):
sure you know, we're we're we're always always prioritizing, you know,
the public health, safety, and welfare. So yes, I mean,
engineering and science are constantly evolving. We're always learning from
the past and trying to anticipate the future, and we
will continue to do that for ultimately protecting public safety
(23:14):
and health and welfare.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I love that. And obviously your organization is geared towards
professionals and like you said to Washington and lobbying and
those types of things. But from a high schooler's perspective,
we're a middle schooler who might have interest in those things.
Could they find information where with your organization or can
(23:36):
you recommend another place for them to look to learn more.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Of course, yeah, I mean certainly assee dot org. There's
a lot of information on our website. But we've put
out this year a IMAX film called Cities of the Future,
So Cities of the futurefilm dot com or if you
just google Cities of the Future and assee, you can
see a trailer. We had John Krasinski. If you've ever
seen The Office, he actually narrated that film and it
(24:04):
kind of takes you into you learn a little bit
about engineering and what we anticipate future cities looking like.
And one of the things that we showcase in that
film is a competition called the Future Cities Competition, and
I judge that this year for the high school level,
but we had for seventy thousand students across the country
at the middle school and high school level participate in
(24:25):
that competition and they're designing future cities and it's run
by an organization called Discovery. We had over thirteen hundred
as members volunteer to help with that, and so they
design a future city and the ones at the high
school level, we're using software called revitt. It's Autodesk software
that they helped them to do this design and so
if you want to get interested and learn more about engineering,
(24:50):
you can certainly look at ASE dot org. You can
also look at discover e. You can look at our
Hopefully you'll get an opportunity to watch the Cities of
the Future film that's playing in Imax theaters around the
country and around the world. We also have another one
that we did a few years ago called dream Big
and associated with that are their educators as guides that
folks can use in school. Teachers can use with lesson
(25:12):
plans and hands on activities to help teach engineering because
we think it's, you know, the greatest profession there is.
It's absolutely essential to our future and to harmonizing our
infrastructure with our natural environment and to you know, really
utilize technology for human welfare.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah. I love that answer. I love it, and I
hope that if there are any parents or kids listening,
that they take your advice and go search those things out.
I know I'm going to. It makes me think of
I'm going to show my age for a second, but
it makes me think of the cartoons. Now, they were
older than me when I saw them, but they were like,
you know, the kitchen of the future, and it would
be like all this crazy stuff that you're like, how
(25:55):
in the world did you ever make that happen? And
nowadays some of that stuff exists, you know, so.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
May be you're you're gonna be too young for this.
But The Jetsons was was the show they played. And
if you if anyone's out there, younger folks, we probably
don't know about it. But if you just google The
Jetsons and you look at the the way they were
getting around, but like the wristwatch they were talking to,
it's almost like they had someone was anticipating decades ago
that we would have cell phones and then we're gonna
(26:22):
have autonomous vehicles and these you know you hear are
easy tolls, these electric vertical uh you know, sort of
takeoff and landing vehicles that I think we'll be seeing
at some point here too. That was anticipated in some
of these some of these TV shows exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
And I love how it appeal to kids to kind
of get them thinking about how would I make that work?
You know, when they're naturally talented in that realm, we're
almost out of time. I wanted to ask you this question.
You are the expert. I'm just curious, is there anything
that the audience needs to know that. I just didn't
know that I needed to ask you about it.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Well, I think you've covered it with well, I mean,
I just I think the if you look at the
report card, you'll see that we've we've made some progress.
It's good. That's something to celebrate. We've gone from a
D plus to a C minus and now to a C.
But remember nine of those eighteen categories are still in
the D range. We really do need to prioritize our infrastructure.
(27:18):
So make sure that you educate yourself and educate your
your lawmakers so that they understand the importance of investing
in our infrastructure because it's going to be important for
future generation. And then of course promoting engineering to your
to our younger generation here so that we can get
them excited about it because it's going to be important
for our economy, it's important for creating jobs, our global competition,
(27:43):
and it's just a wonderful profession to really make an impact.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I love that. And why don't you plug that website
one more time, just in case somebody missed it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Well, for a SDE, it's just a ste dot org.
And if you'd like to look at the Cities of
the Future. It's Cities of the future. Uh film dot com.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
All right, sounds great. Thank you so much for your
time today and for sharing your expertise with us. It's
a really important subject that I think more people need
to be paying attention to.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Thank you very much. And I also quickly mentioned Infrastructure
report dot org. That's another website that sends you to
your folks. Thanks very much, thank you, all righty, thank
you
Welcome to the show, mister Smith. I'm glad you could
join us today to talk about the nation's infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Thank you please to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
So why don't we start with letting the audience know
what makes you qualified to talk about this?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well, I'm the executive directive of the American Society of
Civil Engineers, and this is a nonprofit scientific educational association
that has been around for over one hundred and seventy years.
We were created back in eighteen fifty two, and we
develop and train and educate civil engineers so that we
can advance the public health, safety, and welfare.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Great, and why don't you give us a background about
infrastructure in the nation, because a lot of people might
not know where we started as a country when it
comes to infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Absolutely, and civil engineers sort of design, build, operate, and
maintain our civilization our infrastructure. This is our aviation, our bridges,
our broadband, all the things that we rely on for
our quality of life, our dams, drinking water, energy systems, levies, ports,
things like rail and roads and schools, even waste solid
(01:05):
waste and storm water and transit and wastewater. So all
of these things some of the things that we don't
necessarily think about every day, but that we rely on
when we turn on the lights or flush a toilet,
or turn on our drinking water or transportation systems and
so things that we really need for our quality of
life great.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
And I know back in the eighteen hundreds sometimes we
didn't have a whole lot of restrictions on things. As
a matter of fact, I just watched a documentary just
this past week about I'm trying to remember the disaster
it was, but basically the short form is the people
who designed the structure that failed weren't even architects. They
(01:45):
were like salespeople or something like that. And is that
part of why this organization exists?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Absolutely? You know, these are fairly complex systems, and there's
a lot of engineering and technos you behind our infrastructure,
and so things have changed a lot since the eighteen hundreds.
I mean, you know, obviously even back then there were
designing bridges. You've got things like the Brooklyn Bridge that
we still enjoy today that was built back in the
eighteen hundreds. But we have other infrastructure that's sober fifty
(02:16):
seventy five hundred years old and it's nearing the end
of its useful life, and a lot of times that's
because it hasn't been maintained the way it needs to be.
You might think about, you know, your home or your car,
and if you just go for a period of time
without maintaining it, even if it was a you know,
good quality at the time, it's not going to be
able to last over time and it's going to ultimately
(02:36):
need to be replaced. And so some of our infrastructure,
even from the eighteen hundreds, still serves us, but much
of it that hasn't been maintained needs to be replaced.
And so, you know, and we've certainly done that. A
lot of our infrastructure has been replaced, but there are
some examples that really continue to need a lot of attention.
(02:57):
And our report cord on America's infrastructure is it's called
that to the attention of the American public and to legislators,
you know, what's the condition of our infrastructure because we
really do rely on it for not only our quality
of life, but for life itself.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah, definitely, Now, when did this report card start? Like
is there a history behind that as well? And then
after you tell us that, we'll dive into what this
year's report cards is Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
We started doing this back in nineteen ninety eight and
we issue this every four years, and so, you know,
we wanted to make sure again that people understood the
condition of our infrastructure. Obviously, if you're worried about your health,
you're going to go to a doctor. If you want
to know about your infrastructure, you want to talk to
a civil engineer. And so we started pouring over data.
We brought together experts. In this case, you know, our
(03:45):
most recent report card, we have over fifty engineers and
infrastructure professionals who look at data and all these different
categories of infrastructure and just basically give it a sign
of a grade and something that's simple that everybody you
know can relate to, which is, you know, the normal
A through F grading system that we've all grown up with.
So that's that's the system that we've used.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Okay, I love that. And I assume since you're the
president of the society, you have a background in some
form of infrastructure before you got this job.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Right, Well, in my background as executive director of ASSE,
I believe it or not, I joined AS when I
was a school at the University of Virginia. In my
student chapter, I have a graduate degree in structural engineering,
but I went on to law school and practiced law
before joining ASSE at the General Council and then over
the years of different management positions and now the executive
(04:36):
director equivalent of a CEO for the association. Oh, and
we have one hundred and sixty Yeah, we have one
hundred and sixty thousand members in one hundred and seventy
seven countries, and so we are fairly large organization that develops,
you know, peer review journals and standards that get adopted
into building codes, and we put on conferences and continue
(04:57):
education programs. So we have over four hundred chapters at
universities with students involved in our association. So we're very
involved in advancing the profession and also the you know,
the technical aspects of this profession. And we also advocate
you know, we have people on the Hill of this
week who are advocating for research and investment in infrastructure.
(05:22):
So we've got a close to three hundred people that
will be on Capitol Hill today and tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Wow, that's awesome. That is awesome. So why don't we
dive into this year's report card? What can you tell
us about it?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Sure? This year the overall cumulative grade is a C.
So that's you know, that's kind of mediocres. That means
it requires attention. The good news is that that C
grade is higher than it was in twenty twenty one.
In twenty twenty one, the grade was a C minus,
and in twenty seventeen, four years prior, that grade was
(05:56):
a D plus. So twenty twenty one was the first
time we've gotten out of the D range since we've
been doing this report card since nineteen ninety eight, as
I mentioned, and so C is the highest grade we've had.
So that's you know, while you might not necessarily be
overly pleased when your child brings home a C, you know,
because that is mediocre, that does show improvement. So we
(06:19):
are going in the right direction. We have made improvement.
I will say on the flip side that of the
eighteen categories that we grade with our report card, nine
of those are in the D range. Still, so you know, Wei,
while there's you know, some celebration here, we have made progress,
we certainly have a long way to go.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Okay, can you break down those categories for us and
the grades associated?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Sure? You know, if you know, there's there's eighteen different categories.
And so there's as I mentioned, nine of those are
in the D range. Just to give you a sense
of the ones that are getting in that D which
is sort of poor or at risk, that's aviation, dams,
energy levees, roads, schools, storm water, transit, and wastewater. And
(07:05):
so of those b's, the lowest grades are you know,
some of those were D pluses. But the two that
are in the actually a D is storm water and transit,
So those are the lowest grades. Now on the flip
side of that, you know that there's a number of c's,
but there are two that are in the B range.
And so the very highest grade is ports and that
got a grade of a B and then the second
(07:25):
highest grade is rail that got to B minus. Now
while that's also good, you know, the rail grade and
a B minus is down from twenty twenty one. It
was a B in twenty twenty one. And you may
have seen, you know, we've had some incidents with rail
in twenty twenty three, remember the East Palestine with the Ohio.
With the freight movement, So in general our freight has
(07:47):
moved fairly efficiently, but we have had some incidents.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Okay, so in a perfect world, what what would it
take to get us to all a's and b's and
you know, at least a merit roll student if not generall.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yes, Uh, well, it takes a significant amount of investment.
I will say, you know, in the UH, in the
recent past, we did have some significant investment through the
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and some other legislation as well, uh
the BID you know, the Chips and Science Act, and
the Inflation Reduction Act. But there is there, there is
really significant investment that is required because we have kind
(08:25):
of kicked a can down the road for so long.
It's the number is about three seven three point seven
trillion dollars over the next ten years that's required to
really get our infrastructure to a good level. I will
say that that's not just cederal investment. You know that
that is also investment at the state and local level
and from the private sector. So I think what's you know,
(08:46):
it's really important is this idea of having a you know,
a national vision and and support that can be leveraged
with state and local support as well as private investment.
So I think it requires kind of that we say
all those tools in the tool box. That's going to
help solve this problem. And while there's a lot of
pressure on I understand, you know, with obviously with our
(09:06):
national budgets, we do need to recognize the importance of
our infrastructure. And the other thing we talk a lot
about is is you know, what what what are the
consequences of not investing in our infrastructure. And you know,
we we continue to see these more extreme weather events
that we're having to respond to, and we've seen them
across the country just in the past. You know, just
pick pick the last month much less the less you know,
(09:29):
six months where you look at wildfires or hurricanes or
floods and things that we need to be prepared for,
and when we react to them, it ends up being
far more expensive than when we prepare in advance for them. Again,
it's the same kind of thing in maintaining your home
or house or even the human body. Uh. You know,
the more we are proactive and ounce of prevention being
(09:49):
worth a pound of cure, you know, the more we'll
save ourselves. And studies have shown when you invest upfront
you can save up to thirteen dollars you know, in
trying to mitigate and recover from these disasters that we see,
so you know, we want to avoid that hidden tax.
We don't want to be paying on the back end
when we don't get anything for it. We'd rather, you know,
(10:11):
make investments up front. That's what powers are economy. It
creates jobs, it makes us globally competitive, and it's a
better use of our taxpayer dollars.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. How much would you
say population has an effect on that? And I ask
that with the thought in mind that you know, a
lot of things like roads and infrastructure and water and
all those things. You know, they're a lot more prevalent
in the larger cities. When you get out into rural areas,
you have more wells, and you have more septic tanks
(10:44):
and things that are more individualistic as far as that
type of thing goes, and that also can contribute to
storm water issues. The bigger the city, the more people
live there, the more concrete, the more things that prevent
that storm water from going directly back in to the ground,
because it has to go through a series of whatever
we've built to get there. Would things like dispersing the population,
(11:10):
you know, more so into rural areas, which could be
aided by more remote work. Would that be helpful do
you think in solving.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Some of this Well, that's a good point. I mean,
demographics certainly play a part in this. You know, our
population has increased pretty significantly since much of the matter
of fact, it's doubled since much of this infrastructure was designed,
and so a lot of times we're trying to, you know,
use infrastructure to carry far more you know, trips for example,
on roads or bridges than might have originally been designed for.
(11:42):
And the more people that move into cities, you know
that the more infrastructure that's required. Now there can be
some efficiencies from that. Obviously, when we use transit, that's
a pretty effective way of moving people in urban areas,
but as you see people working remotely, as you mentioned,
you know that also requires you still need your road
networks to be you know, for folks who are living
(12:04):
in rural areas and you need broadband. I mean that's
one of the categories that we're grading the broad broadband,
which this is the first time we've actually had a
grade for broadband. It got a grade A of a
C plus. And you know there's there's certain areas that
don't have I think there's ten percent of household households
that without a broadband subscription, so that you know there
there there's a lot of different factors that come into
(12:27):
play here, and I think you raise some good points.
The other point is a lot of the populated areas
people like to move towards coasts, and we have seen
you know, with sea level rise, you know, some obviously
additional impacts there. So as we're now designing infrastructure, we're
trying to design infrastructure that's going to last for the
(12:47):
next hundred years, and so we need to know what
do we want to anticipate for the sea level at
you know, certain points in time, our temperatures or you know,
rainfall data. That's all important information that the engineering community
needs to get from, you know, as we connect with
the science community. And so that's also very important. As
(13:08):
we're developing standards that get adopted into building codes, we're
trying to learn from how our infrastructure performs after a
hurricane or a flood or you know, or a wild
fire or tornado. You know, pick your issue and try
to design so that we're better, more resilient for the future.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Okay, I love that, And can you speak to things
like you know, when you go into the historical district
of certain cities. They may still have roads that are
paved with brick and they're not particularly even, but they're
you know, the brick is all still there and it
looks nice. Or you know, there's documentaries out there that
(13:48):
talk about different Roman roads that are still not only
in use, but you know, still look like they're just
holding strong. And then here we are looking at crumbling infrastructure.
Can you kind of compare and contrast those things for
us and help us understand why our roads aren't Roman
roads so to speak.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, I think, gosh, I think you know, we afe
we have civil engineering historic landmarks all over the country
and all over the world, and I think that one
of the first roads, I think there's one in Egypt
that we have marked out there. But yeah, so they're there,
and as you point out, you'll see cobblestone roads, and
we've got them here and you know, in old Town Alexandria,
(14:29):
or in Washington, d C. And various areas around the
country because you know, there's a historical heritage associated with
these things, and we do like that as well, but
sometimes that's not necessarily as efficient as we might like.
If you're trying to drive you know, fifty miles an
hour or more across some of those. You know, a
cobblestone road, you're really going to feel it. So you know,
(14:51):
we have, you know, believe it or not, there's an
enormous amount of engineering that goes into our roadways, you know,
just the foundations, the soils all have to be tested,
and the types of materials that are used, concrete and asphalts.
I mean, I'm looking out at our parking lot here
at a ste and we have an our asphalt parking
lot is is mixed with crushed tires, and we have
(15:12):
two different types of permeable pavements that are in our
parking lot as well, so that the water can seep
through and then and that the earth can more naturally
retain and treat that water before it filters off into
in our case, a difficult run and then ultimately the
Potomac River, the Chestbeake Bay, and the Atlantic Ocean. So
you know, there are things that we want to do that.
You know, water is always a big factor, and the
(15:34):
freeze and thaw, you know, depending on the temperature conditions,
and as we've got seismic conditions, there's a lot of
things that we're trying to consider as we're designing this infrastructure.
So it's it's quite a bit of engineering. It's quite
a bit more complex, and I think people might realize
and of course, much of the infrastructure you don't even see.
I mean all the pipes, you know, for drinking water
(15:54):
and wastewater, and as you mentioned, in rural areas, you
might be you know, well, in septic fields. I mean,
all of that is there's engineering that goes into that,
and we do just need to be conscious of the
importance of it and the need to maintain it and
invest in it.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Can you speak to
any new technological advances that are in the works when
it comes to infrastructure? Are you aware of certain things
that we can be anticipating.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Gosh, yeah, there's just every sort of everything seems new
in many ways that you know, we spent a whole
you know, I was, I was on a panel yesterday.
We were talking about artificial intelligence and uh, you know,
and the use of sensors so that we got more
data so that we can manage these assets and really
understand how our infrastructure is performing. Obviously, you hear a
(16:40):
lot about you know, connected and autonomous vehicles, and we're
connecting our vehicles to the infrastructure so that we can
be smarter. I mean, how many times have you sat
at a stoplight and wondered why there are no cars
going in the other direction while you sat there, you know,
kicking out exhaust and while while you're not even moving.
So you know, there's the more efficient ways that we
can do things, and we have technology to do that.
(17:01):
It's just that we don't always have the resources that
we need to implement that technology. So, yes, there's an
enormous amount of technology in smart buildings and smart cities
and so, you know, and students are being trained on
the you know, the application of technology, and it's because
it's integrated into our systems. And I should also mention
that these engineering systems are also integrated into nature. So
(17:25):
we've got technology and natural resources that we're kind of
all connecting together. So it's an exciting time to be
an engineer, no question about that. A lot of it's
a complex time, but it's a really important work that's
being done. But it does need a lot of investment
and you know, continued operation and maintenance for our systems.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, definitely. And I know one of the takeaways that
I got in prepping for this interview it talks about
sustained investments and prioritizing resiliency. What does resiliency look like
when it comes to infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, that's a topic that we talk about a lot.
It's you know, this idea of being able to recover
from events. You know, so we're trying to design for windloads,
ice loads, snow loads. You know, what are the rainfall
data that we have, you know, we have we have
a tornado chapter in our standards. We have we're trying
to figure out, you know, whether it's a hurricane, a flood,
(18:22):
what's as I mentioned earlier about sea levels. All those
are things that we're trying to make sure that we're
prepared for so that our infrastructure is resilient so when
we get hit with those things that we can then recover,
bounce back from it and not just have it all
wiped out and then come in and replace it. So,
you know, there's a lot of analysis to go goes
(18:42):
into making sure that it's resilient and can respond and recover,
just like you know, a human being needs to be resilient.
I mean sometimes things don't go well, and you've got
to be able to bounce back. Our infrastructure does as well,
so we spend a fair amount of time, you know,
how to figure out how to invest up front. So
as I'm mentioned earlier, the dollar you spend up front
(19:02):
will save you up to thirteen dollars at the back end.
So we want to be resilient so that we don't
you know, end up having to have problems not only
replacing infrastructure, but the lost money in our economy. The
bridge is taken out or remember following Hurriscane Katrina, I mean,
look at what happened after. Not only do you know,
you know, well over eighteen hundred lives had been lost,
(19:25):
but the impact on the economy and property, it's everything.
It was just been you know, it's just a heartbreaking
loss of life and property following that event. And you know,
we have many events like that, not at that scale
but neverth but at a smaller scale, and we want
to be prepared for that.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Okay, that makes sense. Does that include things like the
thing that comes to mind at first is you know,
when you have a snow event, yes you want your
roads to sustain that, but sometimes the damage comes from
the snow plow. Does your group also work with, you know,
(20:03):
the people who have to clean up from these different
disasters in the in the equipment that might be used
that may cause damage, it requires more extensive repair versus
if you had come up with a solution that didn't
cause quite as much damage. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yes, I know exactly, of course, yes, absolutely. We work
with other associations as well. Where the American Society Civil
Engineers were closely aligned. The fact I was emailing with
their second director this morning, American Public Works Association and
many of our members actually are are running public works
operations for different localities. So the people who are sending
(20:42):
out the snowplows and maintaining our streets. Yes, we're very
closely connected and coordinating with them. And you know what
you put down, you know, if you're living up in
the in the north and you have to you know,
you might be pre treating your roads and then you
know what you were going to put down after it snows,
and how that packs the environment, and what materials that
(21:02):
you're used that is also carefully evaluated. You know, we've
got conferences where people are discussing just what you're putting
on your roads, and you know experts who are evaluating
the impact on the environment. So and yes, as you
mentioned the plows, the weight of the plows, and the
types of plows that are being used, the techniques that
they're using, where to put the snow, all that is
(21:25):
carefully thought out in advance, and we continue to learn
and try to do it better.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Gotcha. Now, I know my husband has an engineer's brain
as well, So I know, problem solving is like, you know,
the thing, it's like the most favorite thing that leads
people into that realm of study and work. Is there
ever a time where, yeah, you might find a solution,
(21:51):
but the solution ultimately is not what's best because the
environment or you know, the earth itself wherever you are,
is so much more powerful than anything we can create
that it just doesn't make sense. Does that ever happen?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
You know? I think engineering is there's a certain amount
of trial and error in engineering. We'd like to do
most of that in a laboratory as best we can,
and we you know, got universities around the country in
different places that have you know, even in you know,
wind testing and seismic testing and a lot of things
that are done to try and pre test infrastructure. But
(22:29):
and we'd also learn, you know, and there's a lot
of analysis that's been done on infrastructure over the over
the past years to try and figure out what works that,
what doesn't work, what has a you know, negative impact.
Obviously things like pfast and forever chemicals. You know, we're
learning more about that, and we're now trying to figure
out how to you know, how to treat uh, you know,
whether it's waste water, drinking water, and trying to make
(22:51):
sure you know, we're we're we're always always prioritizing, you know,
the public health, safety, and welfare. So yes, I mean,
engineering and science are constantly evolving. We're always learning from
the past and trying to anticipate the future, and we
will continue to do that for ultimately protecting public safety
(23:14):
and health and welfare.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I love that. And obviously your organization is geared towards
professionals and like you said to Washington and lobbying and
those types of things. But from a high schooler's perspective,
we're a middle schooler who might have interest in those things.
Could they find information where with your organization or can
(23:36):
you recommend another place for them to look to learn more.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Of course, yeah, I mean certainly assee dot org. There's
a lot of information on our website. But we've put
out this year a IMAX film called Cities of the Future,
So Cities of the futurefilm dot com or if you
just google Cities of the Future and assee, you can
see a trailer. We had John Krasinski. If you've ever
seen The Office, he actually narrated that film and it
(24:04):
kind of takes you into you learn a little bit
about engineering and what we anticipate future cities looking like.
And one of the things that we showcase in that
film is a competition called the Future Cities Competition, and
I judge that this year for the high school level,
but we had for seventy thousand students across the country
at the middle school and high school level participate in
(24:25):
that competition and they're designing future cities and it's run
by an organization called Discovery. We had over thirteen hundred
as members volunteer to help with that, and so they
design a future city and the ones at the high
school level, we're using software called revitt. It's Autodesk software
that they helped them to do this design and so
if you want to get interested and learn more about engineering,
(24:50):
you can certainly look at ASE dot org. You can
also look at discover e. You can look at our
Hopefully you'll get an opportunity to watch the Cities of
the Future film that's playing in Imax theaters around the
country and around the world. We also have another one
that we did a few years ago called dream Big
and associated with that are their educators as guides that
folks can use in school. Teachers can use with lesson
(25:12):
plans and hands on activities to help teach engineering because
we think it's, you know, the greatest profession there is.
It's absolutely essential to our future and to harmonizing our
infrastructure with our natural environment and to you know, really
utilize technology for human welfare.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah. I love that answer. I love it, and I
hope that if there are any parents or kids listening,
that they take your advice and go search those things out.
I know I'm going to. It makes me think of
I'm going to show my age for a second, but
it makes me think of the cartoons. Now, they were
older than me when I saw them, but they were like,
you know, the kitchen of the future, and it would
be like all this crazy stuff that you're like, how
(25:55):
in the world did you ever make that happen? And
nowadays some of that stuff exists, you know, so.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
May be you're you're gonna be too young for this.
But The Jetsons was was the show they played. And
if you if anyone's out there, younger folks, we probably
don't know about it. But if you just google The
Jetsons and you look at the the way they were
getting around, but like the wristwatch they were talking to,
it's almost like they had someone was anticipating decades ago
that we would have cell phones and then we're gonna
(26:22):
have autonomous vehicles and these you know you hear are
easy tolls, these electric vertical uh you know, sort of
takeoff and landing vehicles that I think we'll be seeing
at some point here too. That was anticipated in some
of these some of these TV shows exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
And I love how it appeal to kids to kind
of get them thinking about how would I make that work?
You know, when they're naturally talented in that realm, we're
almost out of time. I wanted to ask you this question.
You are the expert. I'm just curious, is there anything
that the audience needs to know that. I just didn't
know that I needed to ask you about it.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Well, I think you've covered it with well, I mean,
I just I think the if you look at the
report card, you'll see that we've we've made some progress.
It's good. That's something to celebrate. We've gone from a
D plus to a C minus and now to a C.
But remember nine of those eighteen categories are still in
the D range. We really do need to prioritize our infrastructure.
(27:18):
So make sure that you educate yourself and educate your
your lawmakers so that they understand the importance of investing
in our infrastructure because it's going to be important for
future generation. And then of course promoting engineering to your
to our younger generation here so that we can get
them excited about it because it's going to be important
for our economy, it's important for creating jobs, our global competition,
(27:43):
and it's just a wonderful profession to really make an impact.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I love that. And why don't you plug that website
one more time, just in case somebody missed it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Well, for a SDE, it's just a ste dot org.
And if you'd like to look at the Cities of
the Future. It's Cities of the future. Uh film dot com.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
All right, sounds great. Thank you so much for your
time today and for sharing your expertise with us. It's
a really important subject that I think more people need
to be paying attention to.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Thank you very much. And I also quickly mentioned Infrastructure
report dot org. That's another website that sends you to
your folks. Thanks very much, thank you, all righty, thank
you
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