June 20, 2025 • 30 mins
There's a new hidden epidemic in the workforce and it involves managers pushing employees out of the company without ever saying a word. In Zety’s new Quiet Firing Report, we explore how common "quiet firing" is, what tactics managers are using, and how it’s affecting employee morale and retention. Career Expert, Dr. Jasmine Escalera, will tell us more about the new workplace challenge potentially facing us all.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Virginia Focus. I'm Rebecca Hughes of the Virginia
News Network. There's a new hidden epidemic in the workforce,
and it involves managers pushing employees out of the company
without ever saying a word. In Zeti's new Quiet Firing Report,
we explore how common quiet firing is, what tactics managers
are using, and how it's affecting employee morale and retention.
(00:29):
Career expert doctor Jasmine Escalera will tell us more about
the new workplace challenge potentially facing us all. Welcome to
the show. I'm so glad you could come on here
today and talk about these important career matters.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Wow, I'm super excited to be here with you about ba.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, why don't you start by telling us about your
position at Zeti and what is ZEDDI?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, so, thank you so much for asking. So my
position at Seddie is I'm a career expert with the
company and as a career expert, essentially what I do
is I run a lot of different surveys, collect data
to get an idea on the pulse of what's happening
in the career space. And Zetti is an amazing online
tool to help professionals build resumes and to build a
(01:14):
professional brand that helps them stand out and showcase their
diverse skills.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, so it almost sounds like, if I were to
just speculate, you're like a sociologist for jobs and for
the workforce.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Ooh, Refecca, I'm going to use that moving forward. That
is very facty. I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I was sitting here thinking, like a job expert. Well,
I get where the title came from, but if you
have a job, does that make you a job expert?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Like, well, you know, I feel as though if you
are looking for a job in today's market, that definitely
means you.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
A job expert, right, right, So what we're talking about
today is the new Quiet Firing Report, and this was
absolutely fascinating. Why don't you tell us first what prompted
the creation of the Quiet Firing Report, and then why
don't you tell us some of the details.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Absolutely so. In terms of the Quiet Firing Report, quiet
firing isn't necessarily a new term. We've heard it for
the last few years. However, quiet firing is something that
employees really need to know about and be conscientious of
because it's quite possible that with all the changes that
are happening in the corporate space, that you might be
(02:29):
getting quiet fired and you might not even know that
it's happening. And so what we wanted to do was
we wanted to be able to bring to light what
the term means, but also really talk about what companies
are doing and why they're doing it, so that both
the companies can understand what they're doing and how it
could potentially be affecting their employees, because this has a
(02:50):
massive effect on employee morale, which can affect employee recention.
But we also wanted the employees to understand what the
term means, what could be potentially happened to them, and
how they could navigate extents.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, I love that. So let's start with if you
were to give quiet firing a definition, you know, in
like a dictionary style, what would you say?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It is great question. So quiet firing is when you're
employer subtly but very intentionally is creating a work environment
that essentially is feeling like it's pushing you out of
the company. They are almost forcing you to terminate yourself.
So they're creating either an unbeariable work environment, a hostile
(03:37):
work environment. They might be taking work or opportunities away
from you. They might be shutting you out or excluding
you from meetings and projects or other optivities that you
used to be a part of. Or they could be
creating these incredibly unrealistic expectations for you and your work
that are simply unattainable, and so therefore you feel as
(03:59):
that no matter how hard you work, you're going to
be very unsuccessful in the role. And all of this
is to try to drive you as the employee, to say,
you know what, I don't want to do this anymore.
I'm going to leave.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Wow, that sounds honestly abusive.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Is incredibly abusive. It's very abusive, and you can imagine
the psychological toll that this is going to have on employees.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
It could very well be that you feel very comfortable
in your position, you feel like you're doing a great job,
and then a one eighty happens where you're almost kind
of like what's going on here, where you start to
feel excluded, You start to feel like you're not having
the momentum you used to have, you start to feel
like you can't be successful in your role, and the
(04:45):
impact of that is employees having a lot of self doubt,
employees starting to feel affected, potentially imposter syndrome, and ultimately
they will leave. But the problem is that they could
be leaving on their ow fruition without potentially severance packages.
They're terminating themselves, and that's how companies get out of
(05:06):
having to give real termination packages and severns in a
lot of cases. So this is a very troubling thing
that organizations were doing.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I'm i gotta be honest, I'm kind of like, the
more I hear about business ethics, if you want to
call it, that, the matter I keep getting because you know,
my parents and my grandparents, they worked in a time
where you were given pensions, your company took care of you,
(05:36):
you could stay there forever, and if you needed extra money,
you would go to your boss and they would do
what they could to get you a little extra loan
or something. Then you paid it back, and like it
was really a very nurturing kind of thing to be
in business. And it's almost like we've completely abandoned that
because now we've got businesses putting out fake jobs just
(05:58):
so they can show that they're have jobs, even though
those jobs don't exist. I've even heard where they'll go
so far as to interview people and be in the
last stages before they start spending money. Of course, you know,
of hiring a person, so to speak, and there's actually
no job to hire them into.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
And now this absolutely, yeah, absolutely, you're talking about a
phenomenon that is so troubling for job seekers, especially if
you're in an industry that is impacted by layoffs. If
you've gone through the layoffs and now you have to
deal with ghost jobs, physicians that don't even exist, going
through interview processes where they're not even expecting to hire you,
(06:38):
and it can be very difficult to pinpoint what's a
real job versus what the ghost job. And not all
companies are out there doing quiet firing. Not all companies
are out their posts and ghost jobs, but the ones
that are this is really just such a disturbing phenomenon
when you have organizations that are doing this not just
to their employees, but even to the job seekers that
(07:01):
are out there that are trying to find the next
best role for us.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I mean, it makes it it makes it really hard
to want to be an employee anymore. You know, you
just kind of want to figure out how to start
your own thing. Let's go through a few of these statistics.
In the quiet Firing Report, seventy three percent of workers
said they had experienced quiet firing tactics like micromanagement or
sudden increases in workload without increases in pay. I can
(07:27):
relate to that. I don't know that they're necessarily trying
to get rid of me, but I definitely can relate
into the increase in workload without increase in pay. Is
that some of the things that we look for if
we're trying to spot this early on.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Definitely, So you want to look for these particular things
that organizations might be doing. They might be impeding your growth.
They might be taking away work from you. They might
be icing you out. Now the giving the extra work
without the extra pay, it's actually quite fun, and that's
also happening in the workplace. We see this a lot,
(08:03):
especially if an organization is going through layoffs. It's recession.
If they're cutting staff, you might be getting additional work
but not getting the pay for it. It may not
necessarily mean that your company is quiet firing you, but
this is the opportunity for employees to put on the
big employee hands and start really using their skill set
(08:25):
to negotiate for more money. If you are getting additional workload,
and that workload is going to be sustained, meaning it's
not just for a small project, it is something you
are going to be doing for the long term or
at least for the immediate future, then you want to
really be thinking about what's the best way for me
to go to negotiate for more salary, for more money,
(08:47):
for a promotion, for something that's going to make me
feel as though this additional workload isn't just being thrown
on me. But I have to say, and the outcomes.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Here, I like that. Now, what's your recommendation for that?
Because obviously in today's workforce, you know, everybody in every
industry has been pared down to such short staffing style,
you know, manpower that every job affects the other one,
and so that's how we get roped into that, I think,
(09:19):
is you know, oh, well that person left or they
got fired or whatever, and if that part of the
job doesn't get done, then I can't do my job.
So then we take on part or all of that
other job, and now we're doing two jobs for one pay.
How do we get around that.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Oh, this is such a great conversation and I'm so
happy you asked this. I've had so many women. I
used to work with women and coaching coach women, and
this used to happen all the time. And with women.
We can often see women taking on more responsibility in
the workplace and not advocating or using their voice in
the same way, especially when it comes to money and salary.
(10:00):
And so an exercise that any employee can do if
they feel like they're taking on additional work is go
back to your original job description and start to really
consider what am I taking on that is above and
beyond my original job description or the original responsibilities of
my role, and to almost create a document where you
(10:21):
start to list out what your additional responsibilities are. This
is amazing because employees are taking on responsibilities additional work,
and sometimes they haven't even quantified what that actually looked like,
and so this can be a major eye opener for
any employee. But this can also be the opportunity for
you to really tie into each responsibility, how much time
(10:45):
it takes for you to do it, who you're collaborating with,
what projects are tied to it, and that right there
is a wonderful portfolio to go to your manager and say, hey,
I'm taking on additional responsibilities. I understand the company is
going through structuring or the company is going through layoffs,
but I want to make sure that you're aware of
(11:06):
the additional work that I'm doing and I would like
to discuss out if we pay for that work. So
it's very important for employees to bring the data to
the table because when we come to our managers and
we say, hey, I have extra work, I'm inundated, I'm exhausted,
what's their immediate response going to be, well, me too.
(11:26):
But you can't fight the data. And so when you
can put together that data and that portfolio to show
what you're doing, the extra time you're putting in, and
then you open up the conversation to compensation for that
extra work, you have a better foothold to make that
happen for you.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Okay, now, how do we get around Let's say we've
done all that, and you know, they bring up your
original job description and they do this all the time.
At the very bottom it says and other duties, as
you know, given to you by your manager. How do
we fight that one?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, you're oh, what a great question. So I hate
that statement, by the way, so me too, speaker, Oh
my goodness, because it's basically everything in the kitchen, think Rebecca.
I mean, come on, they can throw anything at you anytime,
a job speaker. And this is to be proactive. If
you're in the job search and that statement is listed
in your job description, it's okay for you to ask
(12:23):
for them to clarify and even to specify what exactly
that means, and for you to document what that means
even before you take the role. So let's say you
get an offer for your ideal job and you discussed
what that specific statement means, It's okay for you when
you accept the role to also say, out per our conversation,
(12:47):
some of those additional responsibilities you discussed work and then
you can use that later on. Now, if you haven't
done that and you're in that job, then it's really
up to you to be able to advocate for yourself.
You can use, for example, the time structure, so if
you are able to calculate how much time you already
(13:07):
have on your plate, now how much time you're adding
extra onto your plate, Because it's the additional task items
you get to showcase that this goal that you're taking
on with all of this immense responsibility simply isn't possible
for you within a forty hour work week. So now
we're talking about prioritization of task because it just simply
(13:30):
wouldn't be possible for you to do it otherwise.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Okay, now I can totally see that. Unfortunately, I think
I fall into the category of overachiever and so on
behalf of that club of people that I am in
love that.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I love that for you, but we also need to
stuck them right.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
So I find myself repeatedly being on teams where for
whatever reason, I am more efficient and faster and can
get the same quality, if not even better quality work
done in maybe half the amount of time. And then
the employer says, well, I shouldn't have to pay you
(14:11):
a full work day if you're only working for half
of it, so you need to do more work. How
do you get around that?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah? So, first off, I love the overachiever. I would
consider myself one of those two. And if you are
the individual who can take on additional responsibilities, guess what.
If you are the overachiever, you're probably also of the
mindset of I want to capitalize on my career and
I want to be able to move my career forward.
I want to have the growth. I want to have
(14:39):
the progression. Maybe you're looking for a new title, maybe
you are looking for a pay raise. This is the
moment for you to contemplate and decide where do I
see my career going? Where do I want my career
to go? Because taking on additional work and responsibilities when
you have the time to do so, and you really
want to progress and grow in your career when freaking win, right,
(15:02):
So this is the opportunity for you to then document
the additional work you're doing, because you still are doing
additional work, even if you can do it within your
time a lotments and this is a perfect opportunity when
you're having your one on ones with your manager moving forward,
to prime them for the conversation of promotion or end
(15:23):
or pay raise. So every single time you're having that
one on one, talk about your achievement, talk about the
additional work you're taking on, talk about the additional collaborations
you're doing or the extra projects, and start to prime
them for when you're ready to go for whatever you
want next. The new promotion, the pay raise, the opportunity
(15:44):
to go to the conference you've always wanted to go to,
the career group, the mentorship. So if you are just
someone who is so dope at their job and can
get these things done and you want to grow, this
is prime time for you. But document everything, talk to
your manager about it as if you are priming then
for the upcoming conversation, so that when you get to
(16:06):
that moment you can say, Hey, remember all the great
stuff I've I'm telling you, Okay, it's time now I'm
really seeking this next thing.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I love that, And I apologize my ADHD has taken
us out on a tangent because what we're talking about
is quiet firing.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Oh but I think that this is, you know, all
the questions that you're asking phenomenal questions here because I
think everyone is kind of thinking the same thing. How
do I capitalize on my job but not burn myself out?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, that's true, that's true. Let's go through a few
of the statistics from that firing report though, again because
I found them so interesting. It said that one in
eight have already quit due to a quiet firing, with
one in six people having seriously considered quitting. Fifty three
percent would start job hunting immediately if they notice signs.
Seventy percent believe that the return to work mandates are
(16:58):
being used as a quiet firing straketrategy. I you know,
why don't we speak to that? What are your thoughts
on that, on the quiet firing, on the return to
being part of the strategy.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, return to office is such an interesting thing, right.
The pandemics showed us that we don't have to work
the same way anymore for a lot of different positions.
We just don't have to be in the office, right,
So their return to office mandate kind of honestly, I
have to tell you, Rebecca, it confuses me because it
(17:32):
doesn't make sense. And we have found through other studies
that employees actually think return to office is a way
for company it to almost kind of like have their
vanders over them to make sure that they're being productive,
when meanwhile, they're even more productive when they have the flexibility,
when they have the work life balance. So these return
(17:53):
to office mandates can be a way for employers, for sure,
to be able to force people out. If you don't
come back to the then you just leave, and that's
such a terrible way to do this, because we don't
even need to be there in the first place. If
you have people who have been productive, who have shown
that they have been productive, who are capable of continuing
(18:14):
to be productive, then we're trying to office really starts
to feel a little weird and starts to feel a
little suspect because it's just simply not necessary. So we
can understand how a lot of employees are tying that
into oh, this is the company potentially trying to force
me out, and in a lot of cases it actually.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Is, oh wow, okay, all right, that makes sense. That
makes sense, and I agree with you. I mean, I
think return to offices, you know, other than the obvious
ones that are necessary, I think we did pretty well
as a country, you know, continuing on and maintaining our
collaboration in our colleagues, you know, our relationship with our
colleagues and all that kind of stuff. I actually also
(18:57):
propose that if we were to embrace remote work more
so that we could feasibly take a bunch of strain
off of our infrastructure because people could be free to
move wherever they want to and they're not restricted to
large cities for you know, things that they can do
from home.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, and you're hitting something really interesting here, Rebecca. That
I would like to also mention is we have runs
and studies as well that show that employees do not
feel as though their salary and cost of living are
moving at the same base. Oh not at all, And
so a lot of employees are feeling like, I have
to take on side gigs, I have to take on
(19:36):
side hustles, I have to have an extra source of income,
even just to pay the basic necessities. We're not even
talking about student loans the credit card debt, although that
is a part of the issue here too, but a
lot of employees are us also feeling like, just for
basic necessities, I need to do this. So you hit
something really interesting. If we allow people to work from anywhere,
(19:59):
we can help employees potentially mitigate having to live in
major cities or cities where the cost of living and
the salary isn't working in the same way. And so
that allows for employees to potentially be able to live
more financially stable lives if right now they're not capable
of doing that. And we know that if you are
(20:20):
taking on additional work, if you are taking on side
gigs and side hustles. What are you not doing? You're
not spending time with your family, not taking care of yourself,
and so that virstal effect is massive.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. That's actually one of
the things too that I don't understand about business ethics,
if you want to call it that. You know, the
business claims to be all worried about our mental health
and about our stress level, and we're going to offer
you all these insurance benefits and blah blah blah. Well,
guess what, I spend majority of my time in my
(20:52):
life here at this job. So instead of giving me
benefits that I have to use in my off time,
which I have very little love, why not let's worry
about the whatever culture you know is happening or whatever
it is in my office where I spend majority of
my life, and let's adjust that and you, as my employer,
(21:12):
take the stress off of me instead of worrying about
how I'm going to manage my stress. You know, it's
it's oh yeah, it's awful, And I wonder, like, I
don't even know if there's a solution, because it's almost
like if people were to act the way business acts,
we'd all be in jail.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I have really given a lot
of thought to is there a solution? And you know,
the corporate space is built a very long time ago
for a certain kind of employees. And with all of
the different kinds of employees we now have in the workforce, right,
we have women, we have people of color, we have
(21:49):
so many different kinds of people in the workplace that
the workplace wasn't built for and wasn't built to sustain.
And it's almost kind of like we're operating under an
old operating system. We have to reboot the system in
order for that system to then be able to take
care of us in the way it should be taken
care of us. Corporate America should be more thoughtful about
(22:10):
what caregivers need. Corporate Americas should be more thoughtful about
what women need. Corporate America should be more thoughtful about
what parents need. These are the things that we should
be thinking about because our employees are helping us to
create the innovative impact that we have, but we're just
operating off of a very old operating system that was
(22:32):
created for only a certain type of persons.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I'll even challenge that, I think the necessity is treat
your employees, no matter the size of your business, the
way you would want someone to treat your loved one
if they were cleaning their house personally, not through a company. Absolutely,
If I were going to come and clean your house
and you're supposed to pay me, and you know, we've
(22:58):
got this exchange of of my service for your money,
and and let's say it's your grandmother, your your spouse, whatever,
how would you want those people that the house is
being cleaned, the people that own the house, how would
you want them to treat that person that you love
who's doing a job for them. And if if people
at the top and the trickles down in these large,
(23:20):
large companies, if they could all understand that that's how
they need to treat the people underneath them, I think
the whole world would change. But how do you get
them to get to that place.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So human right to be kind to each other, right.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
To step aside from the greed and the selfish. Yeah, yeah,
because I think that's the problem with business ethics. I
think that's the problem with business ethics is we started
focusing on how much money can I make? And it
became a race for the people at the top. It's
almost like a game. Oh I make more money than you.
Oh I made more money this quarter. Well I'm going
to do this, you know. And it's it's it's like
(24:00):
a game of the wealthy to make more money. But
it's not how much more money you're making and taking
care of your people, because they're the ones helping you
make the money. It's just how much more can I
make at the top.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, it's a me versus a wei, and
we're not thinking about the wei. You're absolutely right considering
how would you want someone to treat your mom, your sister,
your brother, your father. Right, we don't think enough about that,
and that people have the pop don't think enough about that.
I completely agree with.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
You there, right, And I think that goes to the
statistics in that quiet firing report seventy nine percent of
people would rather be fired directly than quietly pushed out.
People can handle it. Fire me if you don't want
me here, just say so.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Amen to that. It makes me think a lot of
you know, the dating scene. Instead of ghosting me, just
tell me you're not interested. We can go on our
merry way.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It's not a big deal.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
But companies don't want to face this either. They don't
want to face the repercussions. They don't want to face
the financial obligation by letting someone go. They don't want
to face the legal ramifications or ethical ramifications if there
could be. They would rather treat you this way and
make it so that you just feel like I can't
(25:24):
take this anymore. That's a terrible way to operate any
kinds of systems.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
It most definitely is, and I cannot believe this. But
we're almost up at the end of our time, so
I want to pose one more question, so to speak
to you, and then I'll let you promote the website
where we can read more about the survey and ZEDI
in general. Okay, absolutely, the one thing I wanted to
say was let's play Devil's advocate for a second. Just
(25:52):
like there has become this us versus the mentality between
corporations and their employees, which is sad. But if the
reason for quiet firing is because, like you said, companies
are trying to not necessarily avoid the money, although I'm
sure that's part of it, let's say they're worried about
people being so happy and making up reasons they were fired.
(26:14):
You know that may be considered unethical, one might actually
have some legal standing if it could be proven, and
they just don't want to deal with that.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Sure, I can see what you're saying. It's almost kind
of like I don't want to deal with what potentially
happens here. And I get that. I totally do. However,
that one percent chance doesn't seem a reason to create
ninety nine percent chaos for your employees. I almost feel
like we should be treating all employees the right way
(26:50):
instead of considering what's the off chance that this potential
employee need could do something to harm this company, because
then you're going off of a one percent rather than
thinking about how should I actually be treating my employees
for them to be able to enjoy coming to work.
If they enjoy coming to work and they feel like
they're being taken care of and we're going to stick around,
(27:12):
they're going to want to be here. They're going to
want to grow with us, and we're going to be
able to be more innovative, more creative, and more cutting edge.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Right, And I do know it can be a publicity nightmare.
You know, if one employee it gets super loud and
gets a whole lot of you know, I'm gonna call
them social justice warriors on their side who are also
super loud. It can be a nightmare from a public
relations standpoint, but I think you have a point. If
you are taking care of everybody that person included, but
(27:40):
then you had to fire them, then I think even
the people you took care of will stand up and say, hey, no, no, no, no no,
don't listen to that person. I don't care how loud
they are. That's not right, that's not real.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
You know, absolutely always stand up for what is right.
And I think you hit the nail on the head.
If you're treating everyone with respect to see and focusing
on their career growth just as much as they want
to focus on it, then you shouldn't have any issues.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yep, I agree with that. So I know we're at
the end of our time. I'm going to ask you
this question and if you will answer it, you know
someone quickly, and then we need to promote your website.
I'm curious, you're the expert. Is there anything else that
the audience needs to know that I did not know
I should ask you about it.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I would say that if you feel as though as
an organization is quiet firing you, it might be time
for you to really contemplate is this organization aligned with
my values, my ethics, my mission, my integrity Because the
most important thing is that you work for an organization
that aligns with who you are and where you want
to go as a career professional.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I love that if you will promo the website.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Absolutely so if you would like to learn more about Zetti,
please visit zetti dot com. We are a site that
provides expertise to help you you be able to land
your next stream job and grow as a career professional.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
And that's z e t Y.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Correct, Absolutely, z e t y dot com all right?
Speaker 1 (29:10):
And is that where we can also find the quiet
firing report?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
You can if you go to zdi dot com there
is a quiet Firing report and also additional report by
me Jasmin s Kileira, the career expert for ZETI awesome.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Thank you so much for coming on the show and
for answering my questions and for helping us all understand
how we can better advocate for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Thank you so much for having me, Rebecca.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I hope you've enjoyed today's show. Thanks for tuning into
the show on your favorite local radio station. You can
now listen to this show or past shows through the
iheartapp or on iHeart dot com. Just search for Virginia
Focus under podcasts. I'm Rebecca Hughes with a Virginia news network,
and I'll be here next week on Virginia Focus.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Thank you
Welcome to Virginia Focus. I'm Rebecca Hughes of the Virginia
News Network. There's a new hidden epidemic in the workforce,
and it involves managers pushing employees out of the company
without ever saying a word. In Zeti's new Quiet Firing Report,
we explore how common quiet firing is, what tactics managers
are using, and how it's affecting employee morale and retention.
(00:29):
Career expert doctor Jasmine Escalera will tell us more about
the new workplace challenge potentially facing us all. Welcome to
the show. I'm so glad you could come on here
today and talk about these important career matters.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Wow, I'm super excited to be here with you about ba.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, why don't you start by telling us about your
position at Zeti and what is ZEDDI?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, so, thank you so much for asking. So my
position at Seddie is I'm a career expert with the
company and as a career expert, essentially what I do
is I run a lot of different surveys, collect data
to get an idea on the pulse of what's happening
in the career space. And Zetti is an amazing online
tool to help professionals build resumes and to build a
(01:14):
professional brand that helps them stand out and showcase their
diverse skills.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, so it almost sounds like, if I were to
just speculate, you're like a sociologist for jobs and for
the workforce.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Ooh, Refecca, I'm going to use that moving forward. That
is very facty. I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I was sitting here thinking, like a job expert. Well,
I get where the title came from, but if you
have a job, does that make you a job expert?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Like, well, you know, I feel as though if you
are looking for a job in today's market, that definitely
means you.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
A job expert, right, right, So what we're talking about
today is the new Quiet Firing Report, and this was
absolutely fascinating. Why don't you tell us first what prompted
the creation of the Quiet Firing Report, and then why
don't you tell us some of the details.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Absolutely so. In terms of the Quiet Firing Report, quiet
firing isn't necessarily a new term. We've heard it for
the last few years. However, quiet firing is something that
employees really need to know about and be conscientious of
because it's quite possible that with all the changes that
are happening in the corporate space, that you might be
(02:29):
getting quiet fired and you might not even know that
it's happening. And so what we wanted to do was
we wanted to be able to bring to light what
the term means, but also really talk about what companies
are doing and why they're doing it, so that both
the companies can understand what they're doing and how it
could potentially be affecting their employees, because this has a
(02:50):
massive effect on employee morale, which can affect employee recention.
But we also wanted the employees to understand what the
term means, what could be potentially happened to them, and
how they could navigate extents.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, I love that. So let's start with if you
were to give quiet firing a definition, you know, in
like a dictionary style, what would you say?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It is great question. So quiet firing is when you're
employer subtly but very intentionally is creating a work environment
that essentially is feeling like it's pushing you out of
the company. They are almost forcing you to terminate yourself.
So they're creating either an unbeariable work environment, a hostile
(03:37):
work environment. They might be taking work or opportunities away
from you. They might be shutting you out or excluding
you from meetings and projects or other optivities that you
used to be a part of. Or they could be
creating these incredibly unrealistic expectations for you and your work
that are simply unattainable, and so therefore you feel as
(03:59):
that no matter how hard you work, you're going to
be very unsuccessful in the role. And all of this
is to try to drive you as the employee, to say,
you know what, I don't want to do this anymore.
I'm going to leave.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Wow, that sounds honestly abusive.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Is incredibly abusive. It's very abusive, and you can imagine
the psychological toll that this is going to have on employees.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
It could very well be that you feel very comfortable
in your position, you feel like you're doing a great job,
and then a one eighty happens where you're almost kind
of like what's going on here, where you start to
feel excluded, You start to feel like you're not having
the momentum you used to have, you start to feel
like you can't be successful in your role, and the
(04:45):
impact of that is employees having a lot of self doubt,
employees starting to feel affected, potentially imposter syndrome, and ultimately
they will leave. But the problem is that they could
be leaving on their ow fruition without potentially severance packages.
They're terminating themselves, and that's how companies get out of
(05:06):
having to give real termination packages and severns in a
lot of cases. So this is a very troubling thing
that organizations were doing.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I'm i gotta be honest, I'm kind of like, the
more I hear about business ethics, if you want to
call it, that, the matter I keep getting because you know,
my parents and my grandparents, they worked in a time
where you were given pensions, your company took care of you,
(05:36):
you could stay there forever, and if you needed extra money,
you would go to your boss and they would do
what they could to get you a little extra loan
or something. Then you paid it back, and like it
was really a very nurturing kind of thing to be
in business. And it's almost like we've completely abandoned that
because now we've got businesses putting out fake jobs just
(05:58):
so they can show that they're have jobs, even though
those jobs don't exist. I've even heard where they'll go
so far as to interview people and be in the
last stages before they start spending money. Of course, you know,
of hiring a person, so to speak, and there's actually
no job to hire them into.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
And now this absolutely, yeah, absolutely, you're talking about a
phenomenon that is so troubling for job seekers, especially if
you're in an industry that is impacted by layoffs. If
you've gone through the layoffs and now you have to
deal with ghost jobs, physicians that don't even exist, going
through interview processes where they're not even expecting to hire you,
(06:38):
and it can be very difficult to pinpoint what's a
real job versus what the ghost job. And not all
companies are out there doing quiet firing. Not all companies
are out their posts and ghost jobs, but the ones
that are this is really just such a disturbing phenomenon
when you have organizations that are doing this not just
to their employees, but even to the job seekers that
(07:01):
are out there that are trying to find the next
best role for us.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I mean, it makes it it makes it really hard
to want to be an employee anymore. You know, you
just kind of want to figure out how to start
your own thing. Let's go through a few of these statistics.
In the quiet Firing Report, seventy three percent of workers
said they had experienced quiet firing tactics like micromanagement or
sudden increases in workload without increases in pay. I can
(07:27):
relate to that. I don't know that they're necessarily trying
to get rid of me, but I definitely can relate
into the increase in workload without increase in pay. Is
that some of the things that we look for if
we're trying to spot this early on.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Definitely, So you want to look for these particular things
that organizations might be doing. They might be impeding your growth.
They might be taking away work from you. They might
be icing you out. Now the giving the extra work
without the extra pay, it's actually quite fun, and that's
also happening in the workplace. We see this a lot,
(08:03):
especially if an organization is going through layoffs. It's recession.
If they're cutting staff, you might be getting additional work
but not getting the pay for it. It may not
necessarily mean that your company is quiet firing you, but
this is the opportunity for employees to put on the
big employee hands and start really using their skill set
(08:25):
to negotiate for more money. If you are getting additional workload,
and that workload is going to be sustained, meaning it's
not just for a small project, it is something you
are going to be doing for the long term or
at least for the immediate future, then you want to
really be thinking about what's the best way for me
to go to negotiate for more salary, for more money,
(08:47):
for a promotion, for something that's going to make me
feel as though this additional workload isn't just being thrown
on me. But I have to say, and the outcomes.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Here, I like that. Now, what's your recommendation for that?
Because obviously in today's workforce, you know, everybody in every
industry has been pared down to such short staffing style,
you know, manpower that every job affects the other one,
and so that's how we get roped into that, I think,
(09:19):
is you know, oh, well that person left or they
got fired or whatever, and if that part of the
job doesn't get done, then I can't do my job.
So then we take on part or all of that
other job, and now we're doing two jobs for one pay.
How do we get around that.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Oh, this is such a great conversation and I'm so
happy you asked this. I've had so many women. I
used to work with women and coaching coach women, and
this used to happen all the time. And with women.
We can often see women taking on more responsibility in
the workplace and not advocating or using their voice in
the same way, especially when it comes to money and salary.
(10:00):
And so an exercise that any employee can do if
they feel like they're taking on additional work is go
back to your original job description and start to really
consider what am I taking on that is above and
beyond my original job description or the original responsibilities of
my role, and to almost create a document where you
(10:21):
start to list out what your additional responsibilities are. This
is amazing because employees are taking on responsibilities additional work,
and sometimes they haven't even quantified what that actually looked like,
and so this can be a major eye opener for
any employee. But this can also be the opportunity for
you to really tie into each responsibility, how much time
(10:45):
it takes for you to do it, who you're collaborating with,
what projects are tied to it, and that right there
is a wonderful portfolio to go to your manager and say, hey,
I'm taking on additional responsibilities. I understand the company is
going through structuring or the company is going through layoffs,
but I want to make sure that you're aware of
(11:06):
the additional work that I'm doing and I would like
to discuss out if we pay for that work. So
it's very important for employees to bring the data to
the table because when we come to our managers and
we say, hey, I have extra work, I'm inundated, I'm exhausted,
what's their immediate response going to be, well, me too.
(11:26):
But you can't fight the data. And so when you
can put together that data and that portfolio to show
what you're doing, the extra time you're putting in, and
then you open up the conversation to compensation for that
extra work, you have a better foothold to make that
happen for you.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Okay, now, how do we get around Let's say we've
done all that, and you know, they bring up your
original job description and they do this all the time.
At the very bottom it says and other duties, as
you know, given to you by your manager. How do
we fight that one?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, you're oh, what a great question. So I hate
that statement, by the way, so me too, speaker, Oh
my goodness, because it's basically everything in the kitchen, think Rebecca.
I mean, come on, they can throw anything at you anytime,
a job speaker. And this is to be proactive. If
you're in the job search and that statement is listed
in your job description, it's okay for you to ask
(12:23):
for them to clarify and even to specify what exactly
that means, and for you to document what that means
even before you take the role. So let's say you
get an offer for your ideal job and you discussed
what that specific statement means, It's okay for you when
you accept the role to also say, out per our conversation,
(12:47):
some of those additional responsibilities you discussed work and then
you can use that later on. Now, if you haven't
done that and you're in that job, then it's really
up to you to be able to advocate for yourself.
You can use, for example, the time structure, so if
you are able to calculate how much time you already
(13:07):
have on your plate, now how much time you're adding
extra onto your plate, Because it's the additional task items
you get to showcase that this goal that you're taking
on with all of this immense responsibility simply isn't possible
for you within a forty hour work week. So now
we're talking about prioritization of task because it just simply
(13:30):
wouldn't be possible for you to do it otherwise.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Okay, now I can totally see that. Unfortunately, I think
I fall into the category of overachiever and so on
behalf of that club of people that I am in
love that.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I love that for you, but we also need to
stuck them right.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
So I find myself repeatedly being on teams where for
whatever reason, I am more efficient and faster and can
get the same quality, if not even better quality work
done in maybe half the amount of time. And then
the employer says, well, I shouldn't have to pay you
(14:11):
a full work day if you're only working for half
of it, so you need to do more work. How
do you get around that?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah? So, first off, I love the overachiever. I would
consider myself one of those two. And if you are
the individual who can take on additional responsibilities, guess what.
If you are the overachiever, you're probably also of the
mindset of I want to capitalize on my career and
I want to be able to move my career forward.
I want to have the growth. I want to have
(14:39):
the progression. Maybe you're looking for a new title, maybe
you are looking for a pay raise. This is the
moment for you to contemplate and decide where do I
see my career going? Where do I want my career
to go? Because taking on additional work and responsibilities when
you have the time to do so, and you really
want to progress and grow in your career when freaking win, right,
(15:02):
So this is the opportunity for you to then document
the additional work you're doing, because you still are doing
additional work, even if you can do it within your
time a lotments and this is a perfect opportunity when
you're having your one on ones with your manager moving forward,
to prime them for the conversation of promotion or end
(15:23):
or pay raise. So every single time you're having that
one on one, talk about your achievement, talk about the
additional work you're taking on, talk about the additional collaborations
you're doing or the extra projects, and start to prime
them for when you're ready to go for whatever you
want next. The new promotion, the pay raise, the opportunity
(15:44):
to go to the conference you've always wanted to go to,
the career group, the mentorship. So if you are just
someone who is so dope at their job and can
get these things done and you want to grow, this
is prime time for you. But document everything, talk to
your manager about it as if you are priming then
for the upcoming conversation, so that when you get to
(16:06):
that moment you can say, Hey, remember all the great
stuff I've I'm telling you, Okay, it's time now I'm
really seeking this next thing.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I love that, And I apologize my ADHD has taken
us out on a tangent because what we're talking about
is quiet firing.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Oh but I think that this is, you know, all
the questions that you're asking phenomenal questions here because I
think everyone is kind of thinking the same thing. How
do I capitalize on my job but not burn myself out?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, that's true, that's true. Let's go through a few
of the statistics from that firing report though, again because
I found them so interesting. It said that one in
eight have already quit due to a quiet firing, with
one in six people having seriously considered quitting. Fifty three
percent would start job hunting immediately if they notice signs.
Seventy percent believe that the return to work mandates are
(16:58):
being used as a quiet firing straketrategy. I you know,
why don't we speak to that? What are your thoughts
on that, on the quiet firing, on the return to
being part of the strategy.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, return to office is such an interesting thing, right.
The pandemics showed us that we don't have to work
the same way anymore for a lot of different positions.
We just don't have to be in the office, right,
So their return to office mandate kind of honestly, I
have to tell you, Rebecca, it confuses me because it
(17:32):
doesn't make sense. And we have found through other studies
that employees actually think return to office is a way
for company it to almost kind of like have their
vanders over them to make sure that they're being productive,
when meanwhile, they're even more productive when they have the flexibility,
when they have the work life balance. So these return
(17:53):
to office mandates can be a way for employers, for sure,
to be able to force people out. If you don't
come back to the then you just leave, and that's
such a terrible way to do this, because we don't
even need to be there in the first place. If
you have people who have been productive, who have shown
that they have been productive, who are capable of continuing
(18:14):
to be productive, then we're trying to office really starts
to feel a little weird and starts to feel a
little suspect because it's just simply not necessary. So we
can understand how a lot of employees are tying that
into oh, this is the company potentially trying to force
me out, and in a lot of cases it actually.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Is, oh wow, okay, all right, that makes sense. That
makes sense, and I agree with you. I mean, I
think return to offices, you know, other than the obvious
ones that are necessary, I think we did pretty well
as a country, you know, continuing on and maintaining our
collaboration in our colleagues, you know, our relationship with our
colleagues and all that kind of stuff. I actually also
(18:57):
propose that if we were to embrace remote work more
so that we could feasibly take a bunch of strain
off of our infrastructure because people could be free to
move wherever they want to and they're not restricted to
large cities for you know, things that they can do
from home.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, and you're hitting something really interesting here, Rebecca. That
I would like to also mention is we have runs
and studies as well that show that employees do not
feel as though their salary and cost of living are
moving at the same base. Oh not at all, And
so a lot of employees are feeling like, I have
to take on side gigs, I have to take on
(19:36):
side hustles, I have to have an extra source of income,
even just to pay the basic necessities. We're not even
talking about student loans the credit card debt, although that
is a part of the issue here too, but a
lot of employees are us also feeling like, just for
basic necessities, I need to do this. So you hit
something really interesting. If we allow people to work from anywhere,
(19:59):
we can help employees potentially mitigate having to live in
major cities or cities where the cost of living and
the salary isn't working in the same way. And so
that allows for employees to potentially be able to live
more financially stable lives if right now they're not capable
of doing that. And we know that if you are
(20:20):
taking on additional work, if you are taking on side
gigs and side hustles. What are you not doing? You're
not spending time with your family, not taking care of yourself,
and so that virstal effect is massive.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. That's actually one of
the things too that I don't understand about business ethics,
if you want to call it that. You know, the
business claims to be all worried about our mental health
and about our stress level, and we're going to offer
you all these insurance benefits and blah blah blah. Well,
guess what, I spend majority of my time in my
(20:52):
life here at this job. So instead of giving me
benefits that I have to use in my off time,
which I have very little love, why not let's worry
about the whatever culture you know is happening or whatever
it is in my office where I spend majority of
my life, and let's adjust that and you, as my employer,
(21:12):
take the stress off of me instead of worrying about
how I'm going to manage my stress. You know, it's
it's oh yeah, it's awful, And I wonder, like, I
don't even know if there's a solution, because it's almost
like if people were to act the way business acts,
we'd all be in jail.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I have really given a lot
of thought to is there a solution? And you know,
the corporate space is built a very long time ago
for a certain kind of employees. And with all of
the different kinds of employees we now have in the workforce, right,
we have women, we have people of color, we have
(21:49):
so many different kinds of people in the workplace that
the workplace wasn't built for and wasn't built to sustain.
And it's almost kind of like we're operating under an
old operating system. We have to reboot the system in
order for that system to then be able to take
care of us in the way it should be taken
care of us. Corporate America should be more thoughtful about
(22:10):
what caregivers need. Corporate Americas should be more thoughtful about
what women need. Corporate America should be more thoughtful about
what parents need. These are the things that we should
be thinking about because our employees are helping us to
create the innovative impact that we have, but we're just
operating off of a very old operating system that was
(22:32):
created for only a certain type of persons.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I'll even challenge that, I think the necessity is treat
your employees, no matter the size of your business, the
way you would want someone to treat your loved one
if they were cleaning their house personally, not through a company. Absolutely,
If I were going to come and clean your house
and you're supposed to pay me, and you know, we've
(22:58):
got this exchange of of my service for your money,
and and let's say it's your grandmother, your your spouse, whatever,
how would you want those people that the house is
being cleaned, the people that own the house, how would
you want them to treat that person that you love
who's doing a job for them. And if if people
at the top and the trickles down in these large,
(23:20):
large companies, if they could all understand that that's how
they need to treat the people underneath them, I think
the whole world would change. But how do you get
them to get to that place.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So human right to be kind to each other, right.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
To step aside from the greed and the selfish. Yeah, yeah,
because I think that's the problem with business ethics. I
think that's the problem with business ethics is we started
focusing on how much money can I make? And it
became a race for the people at the top. It's
almost like a game. Oh I make more money than you.
Oh I made more money this quarter. Well I'm going
to do this, you know. And it's it's it's like
(24:00):
a game of the wealthy to make more money. But
it's not how much more money you're making and taking
care of your people, because they're the ones helping you
make the money. It's just how much more can I
make at the top.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, it's a me versus a wei, and
we're not thinking about the wei. You're absolutely right considering
how would you want someone to treat your mom, your sister,
your brother, your father. Right, we don't think enough about that,
and that people have the pop don't think enough about that.
I completely agree with.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
You there, right, And I think that goes to the
statistics in that quiet firing report seventy nine percent of
people would rather be fired directly than quietly pushed out.
People can handle it. Fire me if you don't want
me here, just say so.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Amen to that. It makes me think a lot of
you know, the dating scene. Instead of ghosting me, just
tell me you're not interested. We can go on our
merry way.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It's not a big deal.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
But companies don't want to face this either. They don't
want to face the repercussions. They don't want to face
the financial obligation by letting someone go. They don't want
to face the legal ramifications or ethical ramifications if there
could be. They would rather treat you this way and
make it so that you just feel like I can't
(25:24):
take this anymore. That's a terrible way to operate any
kinds of systems.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
It most definitely is, and I cannot believe this. But
we're almost up at the end of our time, so
I want to pose one more question, so to speak
to you, and then I'll let you promote the website
where we can read more about the survey and ZEDI
in general. Okay, absolutely, the one thing I wanted to
say was let's play Devil's advocate for a second. Just
(25:52):
like there has become this us versus the mentality between
corporations and their employees, which is sad. But if the
reason for quiet firing is because, like you said, companies
are trying to not necessarily avoid the money, although I'm
sure that's part of it, let's say they're worried about
people being so happy and making up reasons they were fired.
(26:14):
You know that may be considered unethical, one might actually
have some legal standing if it could be proven, and
they just don't want to deal with that.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Sure, I can see what you're saying. It's almost kind
of like I don't want to deal with what potentially
happens here. And I get that. I totally do. However,
that one percent chance doesn't seem a reason to create
ninety nine percent chaos for your employees. I almost feel
like we should be treating all employees the right way
(26:50):
instead of considering what's the off chance that this potential
employee need could do something to harm this company, because
then you're going off of a one percent rather than
thinking about how should I actually be treating my employees
for them to be able to enjoy coming to work.
If they enjoy coming to work and they feel like
they're being taken care of and we're going to stick around,
(27:12):
they're going to want to be here. They're going to
want to grow with us, and we're going to be
able to be more innovative, more creative, and more cutting edge.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Right, And I do know it can be a publicity nightmare.
You know, if one employee it gets super loud and
gets a whole lot of you know, I'm gonna call
them social justice warriors on their side who are also
super loud. It can be a nightmare from a public
relations standpoint, but I think you have a point. If
you are taking care of everybody that person included, but
(27:40):
then you had to fire them, then I think even
the people you took care of will stand up and say, hey, no, no, no, no no,
don't listen to that person. I don't care how loud
they are. That's not right, that's not real.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
You know, absolutely always stand up for what is right.
And I think you hit the nail on the head.
If you're treating everyone with respect to see and focusing
on their career growth just as much as they want
to focus on it, then you shouldn't have any issues.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yep, I agree with that. So I know we're at
the end of our time. I'm going to ask you
this question and if you will answer it, you know
someone quickly, and then we need to promote your website.
I'm curious, you're the expert. Is there anything else that
the audience needs to know that I did not know
I should ask you about it.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I would say that if you feel as though as
an organization is quiet firing you, it might be time
for you to really contemplate is this organization aligned with
my values, my ethics, my mission, my integrity Because the
most important thing is that you work for an organization
that aligns with who you are and where you want
to go as a career professional.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I love that if you will promo the website.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Absolutely so if you would like to learn more about Zetti,
please visit zetti dot com. We are a site that
provides expertise to help you you be able to land
your next stream job and grow as a career professional.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
And that's z e t Y.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Correct, Absolutely, z e t y dot com all right?
Speaker 1 (29:10):
And is that where we can also find the quiet
firing report?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
You can if you go to zdi dot com there
is a quiet Firing report and also additional report by
me Jasmin s Kileira, the career expert for ZETI awesome.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Thank you so much for coming on the show and
for answering my questions and for helping us all understand
how we can better advocate for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Thank you so much for having me, Rebecca.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I hope you've enjoyed today's show. Thanks for tuning into
the show on your favorite local radio station. You can
now listen to this show or past shows through the
iheartapp or on iHeart dot com. Just search for Virginia
Focus under podcasts. I'm Rebecca Hughes with a Virginia news network,
and I'll be here next week on Virginia Focus.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Thank you
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