March 7, 2025 • 30 mins
While women make up 48% of the workforce, women only hold about 29% of positions in STEM specialties. A new book, "Lessons Learned: Stories from Women Leaders in STEM" shares over 30 success stories from women holding leadership positions in STEM fields. On today's episode we're talking to one of the authors of the book, Dr. Peter Angood - who is also the CEO of the American Association for Physician Leadership.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Virginia Focus. I'm Rebecca Hughes of the Virginia
News Network. While women make up forty eight percent of
the workforce, women only hold about twenty nine percent of
positions in stem's specialties. A new book, Lessons Learned Stories
from Women Leaders in STEM shares over thirty success stories
from women holding leadership positions in STEM fields. On today's episode,
(00:29):
we're talking to one of the authors of the book,
doctor Peter an Good, who is also the CEO of
the American Association for Physician Leadership. Welcome to the show,
Doctor and Good. I'm so glad that you could join
us today to talk about women in STEM.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you so much for the opportunity to share that
topic with you.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
So, there's a new book out that you guys published.
It's The Success Stories of Women in STEM Fields, right, correat.
So why don't you tell us what made you decide? Yeah,
why don't you tell us about the book and what
made you decide to choose that topic.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, our organization historically has focused predominantly on physicians and
leadership skills of physicians in the medical profession and within medicine,
women are gradually progressing in terms of their presence in
the industry. Slightly over half of the medical students these
(01:27):
days are women. However, still in the course, it's about
a third of the workforce of physicians are wen, so
there's still some growth to go there. We published a
book about Women Leaders in Medicine. But as we did that,
we worked with the primary editor, Deboris Schlein, and recognized
(01:50):
that in order to get into medicine, you really need
to be educated in many of the disciplines related to this,
so called areas science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and so we
looked into the career paths and the career trajectories of
women in the STEM disciplines and found that there is
(02:15):
an even lower rate of women in those types of disciplines.
In general, forty eight percent of the workforce are women,
but unlike in medicine, less than thirty percent of the
workforce in the STEM disciplines are women. So there's quite
a disparity still going out of there, and we thought
it important to profile that.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Okay, I'm sure you looked at everything social pressures, economic pressures,
political even maybe what are some of those things that
you found when you were looking into this.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, you know, the trajectory for getting gender equality in
our society overall has been long. We are making great
progress in the last several decades. However, as we recognize
easily in other industries, not only is there the so
called glass ceiling for women who are moving through a
(03:10):
different industry and getting into leadership roles, we've recognized that
there are different industries and variation in terms of the
attractiveness for women to go into those different industries, and
the stem career paths is one of those areas where
there's less prevalence of women, and so there's quite a
marked disparity in terms of gender equality there. So why well,
(03:34):
you know, part of it is the legacy of our cultures,
the expectation that, you know, women are just no good
that science or math, so why would they go into
those types of disciplines. That's created some of that you know,
so called inherent bias that the men portray through to
their daughters and to young women and to other women
(03:56):
in the field. And then it happens as parents we
unexpectedly sort of guide our daughters and our nieces into
the more traditional, women oriented, caring.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Types of career paths.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
But what we've recognized is in spite of those biases
and cultural norms that have evolved over time. Actually, women
are pretty darn good at those disciplines there in times
certainly equal, equally competent to them, and at times better
than men in some of those disciplines. So it's really
(04:33):
important that we overcome our cultural biases and our legacy behaviors.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I agree completely. It's funny because I love that we're
doing this topic. One of my best friends, she's maybe
five foot two, she's teen EWEENI she's pocket sized, and
she went to school. She's brilliant, she's absolutely brilliant, wonderful
in science and those kind of things. Is she wanted
to be an orthopedist, and so she went to and
(05:00):
she got on that track well because she's so tiny.
I think it was one of her professors told her,
you'll never make it in orthopedics, which, if anybody needs
to know, that's bones, like you know, you know, knee
replacements and broken bones and things of that nature. Anyway,
you'll never make it in orthopedics because you're too short
and you're going to be too weak as a woman
(05:21):
to do the things like wield these saws and whatnot
that are necessary during surgeries. And so she took that
to heart. And now she is a high school teacher
and has been for I don't know, seventeen years or whatever.
And so the world missed out on her skills and
her knowledge in that regard and gained it in another place,
(05:43):
but still she didn't follow her dream.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
It's sad and the story you just told, unfortunately, is
all too common, all too common, not just related to
size and capability, but to perceived intelligence or aptitude. And
what we're recognizing more and more fortunately, and finally is
that women can do many of these jobs just as.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Good or even better than men.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
And we really have to help the women in the
workforce and the young girls and those going into higher
education to understand they should not be intimidated by trying
to take on one of those career paths.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, so, what are some of the ways that we
can help women to take a larger role in those
stem fields? How can we encourage them?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Well, you know, I personally think it all starts at
the family level in terms of how we approach our
kids and our daughters as they're growing up and helping
ourselves recognize gosh, you know, the world is changing, technology
is changing.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
We're much more of a.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Digitally driven society, and so if we want our daughters
to be engaged equally in society, then we should be
open minded as parents to really encourage our daughters to
consider some of those types of things as it relates
to science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. As they're going through
(07:08):
grade school, now, you know, the girls will gradually understand
where their natural talents, their natural interests or aptitudes are,
and then it's up to the you know, the guidance
counselors in the high schools to help the kids understand,
you know, these are options. And then as they enter
(07:28):
into whether it's a technical college or community college or
a university program, the young women are already appreciating that,
you know, my parents encourage me to do this. I
have the interest, in the aptitude, I have the intellect.
So let me pursue some of these courses. Let me
think about some of these career paths, and then that
(07:50):
will gradually, you know, trickle up into the workforce itself.
And you know, as that occurs different industry, in different
companies and industries will be far more receptive to understanding
that these women entering the workforce are superbly talented and
capable of pursuing careers in these STEM disciplines. Now, as
(08:13):
a part of all of that, we need to help
make sure that there are appropriate mentors in place that
help these young women understand and also help them find
out how you navigate these types of disciplines. How do
you get involved, how do you get engaged, how do
you get the jobs? That's partly what this book is
all about. It's you know, you've got thirty one women
(08:34):
who have excelled. They're in the highest levels and a
whole variety of areas. They got there through mentorship, they
got through peer to peer networking, and they've got raw talents,
and you need to help young girls and young women
understand that it is possible and they can do the
job as I say, equally or better than men.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
That's awesome. So when you say like mentors and things
of that, or would that be something that would come
from a university or a tech school, or would that
be something that would be up to companies to implement, I.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Think it's all of the above. You know, I think
the high school guidance counselors could do a better job
of facilitating the networking to their local or states and
regional companies, helping identify where mentors are potentially potentially helping
(09:33):
the young girls find internship types of opportunities or summer
jobs to get some exposure through mentorship. And then as
that set of relationships in any community start to grow,
then that also involves the community colleges, the universities, the
other colleges in that community. And you know, ideally you've
(09:55):
got this nice network that provides a continue out of
high school into the training schools and then into the industries.
And whether they're volunteer summer job experiences, internships, or paid
short term jobs, it gives them the opportunity to build
these contacts, build the mentorships, and build those peer to
(10:18):
peer connections that helps them understand what these jobs are
all about.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, I love that. I actually guess I'm sitting here
thinking about it. My dad taught me to turn wrenches
when I was a little girl. Actually, at the age
of thirteen, helped rebuild his engine in his truck, and
he took me to the local tech school and I
learned how to MiG, tig and stick welled and it's
one of those things that I it's great for parties
(10:43):
to bring this up because it's, you know, unique conversation
for women. But you know, like I said, it's a
unique conversation. Women don't generally do those things. And I
enjoyed them, but I didn't go into those fields because
as much as my father encouraged me, there was always
that physical limitation of being strong enough to break the
seal on a bolt or whatever. Do you think that
(11:04):
may play a role in some of the hesitancy as
far as girls in women going into those fields.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Oh, absolutely absolutely. You know, you know, I'm not a psychologist,
and I don't ever tre turn even to pretend to
be a popular cult or psychologist. But you know, having
brought up a couple of girls myself, I've recognized that
it's a difficult job to really help young girls young
(11:33):
women feel strongly confident, have a good self image, and
have the ambition to pursue things that they might be
a little bit uncomfortable with and are a little bit
against the grain. You know, finding a young girl in
a car repair shop of some sort, we just don't
(11:54):
see that doing. Or if we see a young woman
in a car repair shop, we think God, that's an oddity.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
How'd she get?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
But that kind of role modeling isn't prevalent enough yet
for young women, and so it's women like yourself and
others who already are in the career tracks. Especially for
those women who might be listening who are in the
stem tracks. It's actually almost the responsibility to reach back
(12:22):
out to the young women that you have connections with
and help them understand there are ways to get those
exposures and to get those experiences, because otherwise our societal
norms kind of go against that. And that's what we're
trying to do with this book, is we help everyone
appreciate our historical societal norms aren't necessarily the right direction
(12:43):
for the evolving cultures and societal career choices. I guess
again specifically because we're so digitally and technology oriented.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Oh yeah, for sure. So can you share some of
those stories? I know I think there's thirty or more,
but can you share a few of those stories with
us without r in the book?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, gosh, you know, I hate to do that because
all thirty one of them are exceptional women, you know
we have It's like, oh, man, if I focus in
on one, then I'm not paying enough attention to the others,
but suffice it to say, you know that we've got
women from the highest levels of success in the different
(13:25):
types of disciplines related to science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.
They are academics, they're in industry heavily involved with artificial intelligence.
They are the main editors of some of the main
science journals. The President of the National Academy of Sciences
as a woman who's portrayed here. It's just a wonderful
(13:48):
ray of authors and contributors here, So it would be
unfair to any one of them to sort of portray
one out. But it's exceptional, it really is.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Okay, and where can we find your book?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah? Yeah, so you can come to our organization's website
Physician leaders dot org all one word, or you can
find it on Amazon as well.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Okay, And what's it running as far as price wise, Oh,
it's just shy at.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Twenty dollars, very affordable, and it's a pretty nice easy read.
And it's set up in ways that you can flick
through it and pick and choose which area you want
to focus upon. It's not a front to back type
of a read.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Okay, is there any move by your organization to get
this book into the schools, because I think that would
be extremely helpful.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, we're, you know, relatively early in the release and
launch of this book. We're trying to make sure that
we're trying to get its presence felt inside the different
professional associations of the science and technology, engineering, and mathematics.
But you're absolutely right, and we need to reach back
further into the colleges universities as well as to the
(14:57):
grade schools, and that's on our plan on our path.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Great, and in what way can people support you as
far as getting that done donations or is there like
a place they can go to maybe get discount for schools.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, well, we certainly if there is a school or
some kind of organization that wants to have a book order,
we can certainly work on a discounting approach. And if
there are organizations that want to get more involved in
different sorts of ways, they can get a hold of
me directly through our website and I'll facilitate how we
(15:33):
can connect better and further on this because we really
do want to foster up an awareness building approach in
terms of the potential of STEM for young women, But
we also want to provide the networking capability for like
minded individuals and like minded organizations to help foster increased
(15:53):
awareness and the opportunities for the STEM career paths for women.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Okay, and do you think there's any difference between pre
COVID and post COVID as far as opportunities for women
like this?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, it's interesting. The pandemic really created within the field
of medicine an increased awareness of the beauty of medicine
as a chosen profession, and we have seen an increase
in interest and applicants to medical schools as a result
of the pandemic For those individuals who find that they
(16:30):
don't really quite want to do medicine as a field.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
There are all of these related.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Types of industry sectors that contribute into medicine, So the
pharmaceutical industry, the device industry, the technology industry itself, all
of those excuse me, have opportunity for STEM related disciplines
in them, and I think we're starting to see a
trickle over into those other industries as well.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Okay, And I don't know if you're familiar with the
term mental load, but I know that's a popular thing
in the community of women right now is discussing how
women in general hold the mental load in their families,
which means, yes, my husband will help me, but I
always have to ask for the help. He doesn't just
look over and see the garbage needs to be taken
(17:17):
and do it, or see that you know, groceries need
to be bought and do it. I have to constantly
have a tour list basically in my mind, and then
ask my children and spouse accordingly when I need them
to do to contribute, instead of knowing that they are
as invested. I guess as a way to say that,
did you guys look at that kind of thing in
(17:39):
your book and looking into the research of the kind
of thing as far as what effect mental load has
on women's likelihood of going into these let's put it honest,
pretty intensely, you know, it's a pretty intense still is
pretty intense, and so it requires a lot of focus
and a lot of mental energy that maybe if you're
(18:00):
carrying a mental load you don't have time for. I
guess is why I'm trying to say that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, well, certainly I'm very much aware of the mental load,
and I'm further on in my own career.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
So I'm guilty as charged with what.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
You just described being a man. But you know, I've
certainly changed my own approaches to my personal life and
my family life as a result. But you're absolutely right.
I think regardless of which type of a career path
of women chooses, there is still a discrepancy in terms
of the distribution of the family responsibilities, the child rearing
(18:39):
and child management, if you will, responsibilities, as well as
trying to run a career. I did see some statistics
just earlier today actually where the percentage of women who
are in the workforce with family has gone back up
to pre COVID numbers. That's fortunate, and the ability to
(19:03):
do remote work has facilitated that. So we're unfortunately seeing
women re engaging in the workforce. But you're absolutely right
these stem careers. Medicine itself still has some discrepancies in
terms of not just the mental load and the equitable
(19:23):
sharing of professional and personal responsibilities as part of a
relationship or part of a family. But we still are
struggling with pay equity and as well, you know, the
proverbial glass ceiling, the ability to get into leadership roles
to be effective as a leader as a woman, to
(19:43):
be recognized as a leader as a woman.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
There's a lovely.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Article in I think the Washington Post today written by
a physician trainee who profiles the inequities of being a
physician and not being treated equally by others in the
healthcare workforce, by patients, by other doctors who are male,
(20:08):
et cetera. And there's lots of statistics that show there's
pain in equities in medicine as it relates to men
versus women. And it's not just because they may take
a break to have children. Those so I think across
all industries little one STEM, let alone medicine, and we
still have a long ways to go to get to
true equity for women as it relates to all those
(20:32):
responsibilities you outlined.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Okay, I love that answer. So from this book, do
you foresee this book leading to any other types of
research or yet another book that might focus in on
any of the things we've talked about, or even something
else we haven't talked about yet.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Well, we're doing, you know some As I mentioned in
the beginning, we have these two books. One is Women
Physician Leaders, and then we have these Women Leaders and
STEM and as it relates to leadership and those who
have strong desire to get into leadership roles. You know,
(21:11):
there's a lot of reasons why you go into leadership roles. One,
it's just your personal ambitions and you have the desire
to have some personal achievements. But for people who choose
STEM or medicine, oftentimes they go into those careers because
they're trying to create larger scale change through whatever discipline.
(21:31):
And when you go into leadership roles, you're trying to
create larger scale change as a leader by helping to
influence others. And so our initial phase here is to
look at the impact and the outcomes of our own
leadership programs on individuals in the organizations where they work,
(21:52):
and what are the positive benefits of leadership training, leadership
exposure and experiences, and the impact it creates organization. As
we get some of that work consolidated and published and
out into the general industry, I think an obvious next
step for us is to do similar work inside of
the STEM arenas. And if there are other organizations or
(22:15):
companies who would love to engage in some of that research,
we'd love to partner up with that because it's one
thing to bring awareness that we need gender equity and
STEM careers. It's another to get women into leadership roles
in STEM and then we have to show the benefit
and the impacts of having women in those leadership roles.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Okay, Now, if you were to pick and choose, we'll
say you have a magic wand and you can pick
those companies. Which ones would you say would be the
best candidates for that?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, you know, it's interesting the general public when we
think about industry as a whole, the expectations of the
general public are that those companies should take more and
more responsibility for improving our world. And that not only includes,
you know, the simple things like paying attention to the
environment and the sustainability of our earth, but it also
(23:14):
comes back to how do we treat people in our workforce,
how do we help them with professional development? And so
typically those companies who are on you know, the lists
such as the Forbes list of Most Productive Companies or
the Fortune five hundred, those are the companies that have
(23:34):
the depth of resources in order to really set examples
and to demonstrate to the mid size and small companies
that these things can be done. Now, having said that,
oftentimes the startup companies, the entrepreneurial minded companies, they have
a lot more flexibility and nimbleness to really demonstrate that,
(23:58):
you know, we can show gender equity in our company.
We can promote gender equity through career choices, professional development,
support of the family, all those sorts of things. So
you know that the long answer is all companies can
do it. The short answer is those that have the
deeper pockets and the deeper resources should take the responsibility
(24:20):
to prove that this can be done, so that other
companies have the confidence to do this. I think what's
already happening, and you've alluded to it yourself here today
a couple of times. The grassroots expectation of the workforce
is women want gender equity. They want all of this
stuff to change, So we have to support that.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, yeah, because I mean, I love the joke on
the internet about I think it's sworted something similar to this.
I just learned that there's domestic housewives, which alludes to
there are feral housewives, and I think I've found my people,
you know, and I relate to that so much because
I'm not generally one who loves being in the kitchen
(25:02):
I'm not one who. I don't think anybody really loves cleaning,
but the few people that do, I'm not one of
those either. I can remember being a kid and I
wanted to do what my dad was doing more so
than anything my mom was doing. Her stuff was boring
and girl toys were boring, you know. And so it's
good to see that this is really changing for the better,
(25:24):
you know, and opening up for more women, because the
good old boy system has been a difficult thing to overcome,
and I myself have experienced that in my beginning of
my career when I was younger and a lot more
likely to not fight back and just hang my head
and go cry somewhere. But I think it does require
(25:46):
women sitting up for themselves, and like you said, that
comes from not only the home but throughout our lives.
We need to be empowered that it's okay for us.
We're not the B word, you know what I mean.
And if that's what you're gonna call me, then find
a way to make that a positive thing in seat
of a negative that makes me go sit down. So yeah,
(26:07):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
But you know the other half of the equation, the
other half of the equation is we have.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
To help the men understand.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
That this is okay as well, exactly, and there's a
bit of work to be done there still also true.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
True, that's very true. So you are obviously the expert
in all of these things, and I'm just a curious
cat here learning about it today along with my audience.
So is there anything that I should ask you about?
But I just didn't know to ask you about that.
You want to make sure the audience knows.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
I think, as it relates to the disciplines of STEM
or medicine as a whole, those industry segments and the
career opportunities are certainly there for women. It's not the easiest,
but it's getting easier, and so I think we really
(27:02):
need to encourage parents, teachers, guidance counselors, and all levels
of the educational tree to open up those doors and
help women understand that they could and should pursue these
stem types of fields if that's where their aptitudes, interests,
and intellect hold for them. But as I said a
(27:24):
moment ago, equally we need to help the men understand
that this societal trend is needed. It's necessary, and as men,
we need to be open minded to these shifts and
not defensive. There's lots of good evidence that, you know,
sometimes when women are in the leadership roles, those organizations
(27:45):
do better than when men are leading those organizations. And
when we have the combination of men and women working
well and closely together, the organizations and the places where
they work benefit to difficult and so we really need
to encourage all of this to occur. And this talk is,
(28:06):
you know, mostly about stem and medicine, and I think
those two areas are really a great opportunity for us
to have a natural experiment here and show that this
is fondive and beneficial. Now, this stuff takes time, you know,
generational shifts take time. But if we don't start the trends,
(28:28):
then the shift won't occur.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Right, I agree with that. I love that answer. Thank
you so much. Well, I think we're coming to the
end of our time. Do you feel like we've covered
your book and everything pretty well?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I think so. I think so. Your questions have been terrific, insightful,
and I very much appreciate your approaching this. Oh wonderful.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Well, I'll let you plug that website one more time
so people know Where to buy the book.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah, by all means so. The book is Lessons Learned
stories from women leaders in STEM can be found on
the website of the American Siation for Position Leadership. Website
is Physician leaders All One word dot org, or you
can find it on Amazon as well.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Great, thank you so much for your time today. I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Oh, thank you. I enjoyed talking with you.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I hope you've enjoyed today's show. Thanks for tuning into
the show on your favorite local radio station. If you
have an idea of a topic you would like to
hear on the show, you can send me an email.
The address is Rebecca Hughes at iHeartMedia dot com. That's
r E B E C C A h U G
H E S at iHeartMedia dot com. Also, you can
now listen to this show or past show through the
iheartapp or on iHeart dot com. Just search for Virginia
(29:39):
Focus under podcasts. I'm Rebecca Hughes with the Virginia News
Network and I'll be here next week on Virginia Focus
Welcome to Virginia Focus. I'm Rebecca Hughes of the Virginia
News Network. While women make up forty eight percent of
the workforce, women only hold about twenty nine percent of
positions in stem's specialties. A new book, Lessons Learned Stories
from Women Leaders in STEM shares over thirty success stories
from women holding leadership positions in STEM fields. On today's episode,
(00:29):
we're talking to one of the authors of the book,
doctor Peter an Good, who is also the CEO of
the American Association for Physician Leadership. Welcome to the show,
Doctor and Good. I'm so glad that you could join
us today to talk about women in STEM.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you so much for the opportunity to share that
topic with you.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
So, there's a new book out that you guys published.
It's The Success Stories of Women in STEM Fields, right, correat.
So why don't you tell us what made you decide? Yeah,
why don't you tell us about the book and what
made you decide to choose that topic.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, our organization historically has focused predominantly on physicians and
leadership skills of physicians in the medical profession and within medicine,
women are gradually progressing in terms of their presence in
the industry. Slightly over half of the medical students these
(01:27):
days are women. However, still in the course, it's about
a third of the workforce of physicians are wen, so
there's still some growth to go there. We published a
book about Women Leaders in Medicine. But as we did that,
we worked with the primary editor, Deboris Schlein, and recognized
(01:50):
that in order to get into medicine, you really need
to be educated in many of the disciplines related to this,
so called areas science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and so we
looked into the career paths and the career trajectories of
women in the STEM disciplines and found that there is
(02:15):
an even lower rate of women in those types of disciplines.
In general, forty eight percent of the workforce are women,
but unlike in medicine, less than thirty percent of the
workforce in the STEM disciplines are women. So there's quite
a disparity still going out of there, and we thought
it important to profile that.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Okay, I'm sure you looked at everything social pressures, economic pressures,
political even maybe what are some of those things that
you found when you were looking into this.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, you know, the trajectory for getting gender equality in
our society overall has been long. We are making great
progress in the last several decades. However, as we recognize
easily in other industries, not only is there the so
called glass ceiling for women who are moving through a
(03:10):
different industry and getting into leadership roles, we've recognized that
there are different industries and variation in terms of the
attractiveness for women to go into those different industries, and
the stem career paths is one of those areas where
there's less prevalence of women, and so there's quite a
marked disparity in terms of gender equality there. So why well,
(03:34):
you know, part of it is the legacy of our cultures,
the expectation that, you know, women are just no good
that science or math, so why would they go into
those types of disciplines. That's created some of that you know,
so called inherent bias that the men portray through to
their daughters and to young women and to other women
(03:56):
in the field. And then it happens as parents we
unexpectedly sort of guide our daughters and our nieces into
the more traditional, women oriented, caring.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Types of career paths.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
But what we've recognized is in spite of those biases
and cultural norms that have evolved over time. Actually, women
are pretty darn good at those disciplines there in times
certainly equal, equally competent to them, and at times better
than men in some of those disciplines. So it's really
(04:33):
important that we overcome our cultural biases and our legacy behaviors.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I agree completely. It's funny because I love that we're
doing this topic. One of my best friends, she's maybe
five foot two, she's teen EWEENI she's pocket sized, and
she went to school. She's brilliant, she's absolutely brilliant, wonderful
in science and those kind of things. Is she wanted
to be an orthopedist, and so she went to and
(05:00):
she got on that track well because she's so tiny.
I think it was one of her professors told her,
you'll never make it in orthopedics, which, if anybody needs
to know, that's bones, like you know, you know, knee
replacements and broken bones and things of that nature. Anyway,
you'll never make it in orthopedics because you're too short
and you're going to be too weak as a woman
(05:21):
to do the things like wield these saws and whatnot
that are necessary during surgeries. And so she took that
to heart. And now she is a high school teacher
and has been for I don't know, seventeen years or whatever.
And so the world missed out on her skills and
her knowledge in that regard and gained it in another place,
(05:43):
but still she didn't follow her dream.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
It's sad and the story you just told, unfortunately, is
all too common, all too common, not just related to
size and capability, but to perceived intelligence or aptitude. And
what we're recognizing more and more fortunately, and finally is
that women can do many of these jobs just as.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Good or even better than men.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
And we really have to help the women in the
workforce and the young girls and those going into higher
education to understand they should not be intimidated by trying
to take on one of those career paths.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, so, what are some of the ways that we
can help women to take a larger role in those
stem fields? How can we encourage them?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Well, you know, I personally think it all starts at
the family level in terms of how we approach our
kids and our daughters as they're growing up and helping
ourselves recognize gosh, you know, the world is changing, technology
is changing.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
We're much more of a.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Digitally driven society, and so if we want our daughters
to be engaged equally in society, then we should be
open minded as parents to really encourage our daughters to
consider some of those types of things as it relates
to science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. As they're going through
(07:08):
grade school, now, you know, the girls will gradually understand
where their natural talents, their natural interests or aptitudes are,
and then it's up to the you know, the guidance
counselors in the high schools to help the kids understand,
you know, these are options. And then as they enter
(07:28):
into whether it's a technical college or community college or
a university program, the young women are already appreciating that,
you know, my parents encourage me to do this. I
have the interest, in the aptitude, I have the intellect.
So let me pursue some of these courses. Let me
think about some of these career paths, and then that
(07:50):
will gradually, you know, trickle up into the workforce itself.
And you know, as that occurs different industry, in different
companies and industries will be far more receptive to understanding
that these women entering the workforce are superbly talented and
capable of pursuing careers in these STEM disciplines. Now, as
(08:13):
a part of all of that, we need to help
make sure that there are appropriate mentors in place that
help these young women understand and also help them find
out how you navigate these types of disciplines. How do
you get involved, how do you get engaged, how do
you get the jobs? That's partly what this book is
all about. It's you know, you've got thirty one women
(08:34):
who have excelled. They're in the highest levels and a
whole variety of areas. They got there through mentorship, they
got through peer to peer networking, and they've got raw talents,
and you need to help young girls and young women
understand that it is possible and they can do the
job as I say, equally or better than men.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
That's awesome. So when you say like mentors and things
of that, or would that be something that would come
from a university or a tech school, or would that
be something that would be up to companies to implement, I.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Think it's all of the above. You know, I think
the high school guidance counselors could do a better job
of facilitating the networking to their local or states and
regional companies, helping identify where mentors are potentially potentially helping
(09:33):
the young girls find internship types of opportunities or summer
jobs to get some exposure through mentorship. And then as
that set of relationships in any community start to grow,
then that also involves the community colleges, the universities, the
other colleges in that community. And you know, ideally you've
(09:55):
got this nice network that provides a continue out of
high school into the training schools and then into the industries.
And whether they're volunteer summer job experiences, internships, or paid
short term jobs, it gives them the opportunity to build
these contacts, build the mentorships, and build those peer to
(10:18):
peer connections that helps them understand what these jobs are
all about.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, I love that. I actually guess I'm sitting here
thinking about it. My dad taught me to turn wrenches
when I was a little girl. Actually, at the age
of thirteen, helped rebuild his engine in his truck, and
he took me to the local tech school and I
learned how to MiG, tig and stick welled and it's
one of those things that I it's great for parties
(10:43):
to bring this up because it's, you know, unique conversation
for women. But you know, like I said, it's a
unique conversation. Women don't generally do those things. And I
enjoyed them, but I didn't go into those fields because
as much as my father encouraged me, there was always
that physical limitation of being strong enough to break the
seal on a bolt or whatever. Do you think that
(11:04):
may play a role in some of the hesitancy as
far as girls in women going into those fields.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Oh, absolutely absolutely. You know, you know, I'm not a psychologist,
and I don't ever tre turn even to pretend to
be a popular cult or psychologist. But you know, having
brought up a couple of girls myself, I've recognized that
it's a difficult job to really help young girls young
(11:33):
women feel strongly confident, have a good self image, and
have the ambition to pursue things that they might be
a little bit uncomfortable with and are a little bit
against the grain. You know, finding a young girl in
a car repair shop of some sort, we just don't
(11:54):
see that doing. Or if we see a young woman
in a car repair shop, we think God, that's an oddity.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
How'd she get?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
But that kind of role modeling isn't prevalent enough yet
for young women, and so it's women like yourself and
others who already are in the career tracks. Especially for
those women who might be listening who are in the
stem tracks. It's actually almost the responsibility to reach back
(12:22):
out to the young women that you have connections with
and help them understand there are ways to get those
exposures and to get those experiences, because otherwise our societal
norms kind of go against that. And that's what we're
trying to do with this book, is we help everyone
appreciate our historical societal norms aren't necessarily the right direction
(12:43):
for the evolving cultures and societal career choices. I guess
again specifically because we're so digitally and technology oriented.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Oh yeah, for sure. So can you share some of
those stories? I know I think there's thirty or more,
but can you share a few of those stories with
us without r in the book?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, gosh, you know, I hate to do that because
all thirty one of them are exceptional women, you know
we have It's like, oh, man, if I focus in
on one, then I'm not paying enough attention to the others,
but suffice it to say, you know that we've got
women from the highest levels of success in the different
(13:25):
types of disciplines related to science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.
They are academics, they're in industry heavily involved with artificial intelligence.
They are the main editors of some of the main
science journals. The President of the National Academy of Sciences
as a woman who's portrayed here. It's just a wonderful
(13:48):
ray of authors and contributors here, So it would be
unfair to any one of them to sort of portray
one out. But it's exceptional, it really is.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Okay, and where can we find your book?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah? Yeah, so you can come to our organization's website
Physician leaders dot org all one word, or you can
find it on Amazon as well.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Okay, And what's it running as far as price wise, Oh,
it's just shy at.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Twenty dollars, very affordable, and it's a pretty nice easy read.
And it's set up in ways that you can flick
through it and pick and choose which area you want
to focus upon. It's not a front to back type
of a read.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Okay, is there any move by your organization to get
this book into the schools, because I think that would
be extremely helpful.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, we're, you know, relatively early in the release and
launch of this book. We're trying to make sure that
we're trying to get its presence felt inside the different
professional associations of the science and technology, engineering, and mathematics.
But you're absolutely right, and we need to reach back
further into the colleges universities as well as to the
(14:57):
grade schools, and that's on our plan on our path.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Great, and in what way can people support you as
far as getting that done donations or is there like
a place they can go to maybe get discount for schools.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, well, we certainly if there is a school or
some kind of organization that wants to have a book order,
we can certainly work on a discounting approach. And if
there are organizations that want to get more involved in
different sorts of ways, they can get a hold of
me directly through our website and I'll facilitate how we
(15:33):
can connect better and further on this because we really
do want to foster up an awareness building approach in
terms of the potential of STEM for young women, But
we also want to provide the networking capability for like
minded individuals and like minded organizations to help foster increased
(15:53):
awareness and the opportunities for the STEM career paths for women.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Okay, and do you think there's any difference between pre
COVID and post COVID as far as opportunities for women
like this?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, it's interesting. The pandemic really created within the field
of medicine an increased awareness of the beauty of medicine
as a chosen profession, and we have seen an increase
in interest and applicants to medical schools as a result
of the pandemic For those individuals who find that they
(16:30):
don't really quite want to do medicine as a field.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
There are all of these related.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Types of industry sectors that contribute into medicine, So the
pharmaceutical industry, the device industry, the technology industry itself, all
of those excuse me, have opportunity for STEM related disciplines
in them, and I think we're starting to see a
trickle over into those other industries as well.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Okay, And I don't know if you're familiar with the
term mental load, but I know that's a popular thing
in the community of women right now is discussing how
women in general hold the mental load in their families,
which means, yes, my husband will help me, but I
always have to ask for the help. He doesn't just
look over and see the garbage needs to be taken
(17:17):
and do it, or see that you know, groceries need
to be bought and do it. I have to constantly
have a tour list basically in my mind, and then
ask my children and spouse accordingly when I need them
to do to contribute, instead of knowing that they are
as invested. I guess as a way to say that,
did you guys look at that kind of thing in
(17:39):
your book and looking into the research of the kind
of thing as far as what effect mental load has
on women's likelihood of going into these let's put it honest,
pretty intensely, you know, it's a pretty intense still is
pretty intense, and so it requires a lot of focus
and a lot of mental energy that maybe if you're
(18:00):
carrying a mental load you don't have time for. I
guess is why I'm trying to say that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, well, certainly I'm very much aware of the mental load,
and I'm further on in my own career.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
So I'm guilty as charged with what.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
You just described being a man. But you know, I've
certainly changed my own approaches to my personal life and
my family life as a result. But you're absolutely right.
I think regardless of which type of a career path
of women chooses, there is still a discrepancy in terms
of the distribution of the family responsibilities, the child rearing
(18:39):
and child management, if you will, responsibilities, as well as
trying to run a career. I did see some statistics
just earlier today actually where the percentage of women who
are in the workforce with family has gone back up
to pre COVID numbers. That's fortunate, and the ability to
(19:03):
do remote work has facilitated that. So we're unfortunately seeing
women re engaging in the workforce. But you're absolutely right
these stem careers. Medicine itself still has some discrepancies in
terms of not just the mental load and the equitable
(19:23):
sharing of professional and personal responsibilities as part of a
relationship or part of a family. But we still are
struggling with pay equity and as well, you know, the
proverbial glass ceiling, the ability to get into leadership roles
to be effective as a leader as a woman, to
(19:43):
be recognized as a leader as a woman.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
There's a lovely.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Article in I think the Washington Post today written by
a physician trainee who profiles the inequities of being a
physician and not being treated equally by others in the
healthcare workforce, by patients, by other doctors who are male,
(20:08):
et cetera. And there's lots of statistics that show there's
pain in equities in medicine as it relates to men
versus women. And it's not just because they may take
a break to have children. Those so I think across
all industries little one STEM, let alone medicine, and we
still have a long ways to go to get to
true equity for women as it relates to all those
(20:32):
responsibilities you outlined.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Okay, I love that answer. So from this book, do
you foresee this book leading to any other types of
research or yet another book that might focus in on
any of the things we've talked about, or even something
else we haven't talked about yet.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Well, we're doing, you know some As I mentioned in
the beginning, we have these two books. One is Women
Physician Leaders, and then we have these Women Leaders and
STEM and as it relates to leadership and those who
have strong desire to get into leadership roles. You know,
(21:11):
there's a lot of reasons why you go into leadership roles. One,
it's just your personal ambitions and you have the desire
to have some personal achievements. But for people who choose
STEM or medicine, oftentimes they go into those careers because
they're trying to create larger scale change through whatever discipline.
(21:31):
And when you go into leadership roles, you're trying to
create larger scale change as a leader by helping to
influence others. And so our initial phase here is to
look at the impact and the outcomes of our own
leadership programs on individuals in the organizations where they work,
(21:52):
and what are the positive benefits of leadership training, leadership
exposure and experiences, and the impact it creates organization. As
we get some of that work consolidated and published and
out into the general industry, I think an obvious next
step for us is to do similar work inside of
the STEM arenas. And if there are other organizations or
(22:15):
companies who would love to engage in some of that research,
we'd love to partner up with that because it's one
thing to bring awareness that we need gender equity and
STEM careers. It's another to get women into leadership roles
in STEM and then we have to show the benefit
and the impacts of having women in those leadership roles.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Okay, Now, if you were to pick and choose, we'll
say you have a magic wand and you can pick
those companies. Which ones would you say would be the
best candidates for that?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, you know, it's interesting the general public when we
think about industry as a whole, the expectations of the
general public are that those companies should take more and
more responsibility for improving our world. And that not only includes,
you know, the simple things like paying attention to the
environment and the sustainability of our earth, but it also
(23:14):
comes back to how do we treat people in our workforce,
how do we help them with professional development? And so
typically those companies who are on you know, the lists
such as the Forbes list of Most Productive Companies or
the Fortune five hundred, those are the companies that have
(23:34):
the depth of resources in order to really set examples
and to demonstrate to the mid size and small companies
that these things can be done. Now, having said that,
oftentimes the startup companies, the entrepreneurial minded companies, they have
a lot more flexibility and nimbleness to really demonstrate that,
(23:58):
you know, we can show gender equity in our company.
We can promote gender equity through career choices, professional development,
support of the family, all those sorts of things. So
you know that the long answer is all companies can
do it. The short answer is those that have the
deeper pockets and the deeper resources should take the responsibility
(24:20):
to prove that this can be done, so that other
companies have the confidence to do this. I think what's
already happening, and you've alluded to it yourself here today
a couple of times. The grassroots expectation of the workforce
is women want gender equity. They want all of this
stuff to change, So we have to support that.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, yeah, because I mean, I love the joke on
the internet about I think it's sworted something similar to this.
I just learned that there's domestic housewives, which alludes to
there are feral housewives, and I think I've found my people,
you know, and I relate to that so much because
I'm not generally one who loves being in the kitchen
(25:02):
I'm not one who. I don't think anybody really loves cleaning,
but the few people that do, I'm not one of
those either. I can remember being a kid and I
wanted to do what my dad was doing more so
than anything my mom was doing. Her stuff was boring
and girl toys were boring, you know. And so it's
good to see that this is really changing for the better,
(25:24):
you know, and opening up for more women, because the
good old boy system has been a difficult thing to overcome,
and I myself have experienced that in my beginning of
my career when I was younger and a lot more
likely to not fight back and just hang my head
and go cry somewhere. But I think it does require
(25:46):
women sitting up for themselves, and like you said, that
comes from not only the home but throughout our lives.
We need to be empowered that it's okay for us.
We're not the B word, you know what I mean.
And if that's what you're gonna call me, then find
a way to make that a positive thing in seat
of a negative that makes me go sit down. So yeah,
(26:07):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
But you know the other half of the equation, the
other half of the equation is we have.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
To help the men understand.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
That this is okay as well, exactly, and there's a
bit of work to be done there still also true.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
True, that's very true. So you are obviously the expert
in all of these things, and I'm just a curious
cat here learning about it today along with my audience.
So is there anything that I should ask you about?
But I just didn't know to ask you about that.
You want to make sure the audience knows.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
I think, as it relates to the disciplines of STEM
or medicine as a whole, those industry segments and the
career opportunities are certainly there for women. It's not the easiest,
but it's getting easier, and so I think we really
(27:02):
need to encourage parents, teachers, guidance counselors, and all levels
of the educational tree to open up those doors and
help women understand that they could and should pursue these
stem types of fields if that's where their aptitudes, interests,
and intellect hold for them. But as I said a
(27:24):
moment ago, equally we need to help the men understand
that this societal trend is needed. It's necessary, and as men,
we need to be open minded to these shifts and
not defensive. There's lots of good evidence that, you know,
sometimes when women are in the leadership roles, those organizations
(27:45):
do better than when men are leading those organizations. And
when we have the combination of men and women working
well and closely together, the organizations and the places where
they work benefit to difficult and so we really need
to encourage all of this to occur. And this talk is,
(28:06):
you know, mostly about stem and medicine, and I think
those two areas are really a great opportunity for us
to have a natural experiment here and show that this
is fondive and beneficial. Now, this stuff takes time, you know,
generational shifts take time. But if we don't start the trends,
(28:28):
then the shift won't occur.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Right, I agree with that. I love that answer. Thank
you so much. Well, I think we're coming to the
end of our time. Do you feel like we've covered
your book and everything pretty well?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I think so. I think so. Your questions have been terrific, insightful,
and I very much appreciate your approaching this. Oh wonderful.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Well, I'll let you plug that website one more time
so people know Where to buy the book.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah, by all means so. The book is Lessons Learned
stories from women leaders in STEM can be found on
the website of the American Siation for Position Leadership. Website
is Physician leaders All One word dot org, or you
can find it on Amazon as well.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Great, thank you so much for your time today. I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Oh, thank you. I enjoyed talking with you.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I hope you've enjoyed today's show. Thanks for tuning into
the show on your favorite local radio station. If you
have an idea of a topic you would like to
hear on the show, you can send me an email.
The address is Rebecca Hughes at iHeartMedia dot com. That's
r E B E C C A h U G
H E S at iHeartMedia dot com. Also, you can
now listen to this show or past show through the
iheartapp or on iHeart dot com. Just search for Virginia
(29:39):
Focus under podcasts. I'm Rebecca Hughes with the Virginia News
Network and I'll be here next week on Virginia Focus
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