July 18, 2025 • 30 mins
Before colonists brought their foods from other regions of the world, indigenous people thrived on foods native to North America. A new movement is gaining traction, encouraging farms to reintroduce first foods, like persimmon, ramps, and pawpaw fruit, to help decolonize diets and reduce reliance on external food systems that may not be sustainable due to cost and climate change. Today we're learning more from Mike Ferster, a Virginia educator and pawpaw farmer, who is also joining the movement to grow and research a once popular fruit.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Virginia Focused. I'm Rebecca Hughes of the Virginia
News Network. Before colonists brought their foods from other regions
of the world, indigenous people thrived on foods native to
North America. A new movement is gaining traction, encouraging farms
to reintroduce first foods like per Simon ramps and pulpol
(00:24):
fruit to help decolonize diets and reduce reliance on external
food systems that may not be sustainable due to cost
and climate change. Today we're learning more from Mike Furster,
a Virginia educator and pallpol farmer who's also joining the
movement to grow and research a once popular fruit. Welcome
to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm so glad you could come on here today and
tell us more about your pet project.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Absolutely, thank you so much for having me so.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
First, why don't you tell us a little bit about
who you are and how you got into this.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Absolutely. My name's Mike Furster. I'm the founder and head
orchardist over at Woodside Paw Paw. We really run an
orchard and nursery focused entirely on the North American pop
pap The reason I say North American Pa pause based
on how confusing the name can be, because if you
ask anyone from any other part of the world when
(01:17):
you say Pa Paul, they're thinking papaya. So we're really
trying to push the North American papause the terminology. But
we have a orchard in one part of Virginia and
then a plant nursery and another, and we're entirely focused
just on that North American Papa. While it would be
fun to expand into other things, we've got our primary
(01:38):
focus just because Papa is incredible.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, yeah, And so that's not all you do, though,
this is like your side gig, right.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
It is.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
It is.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I am a teacher full time, and because Papa is
so seasonal, it was sort of the perfect side project,
kind of a passion project to really explore and edge people.
So I get to tie in two of my loves,
which is teaching but also getting to be outside. And
Papa is still relatively unknown. When people ask you know,
(02:12):
what do you grow and say Papa, they're like, what
is that? And so so much of what I do
is really sharing stories and sharing the history and you know,
sort of trying to spread the word on what papa
is because it used to be a huge, huge part
of culture here. Ask anyone who grew up in Mid
(02:34):
East Coast over the age of eighty, and they'll say, oh, yeah,
I remember a papa. There's a whole lot of reasons
for why it sort of fell into obscurity, but the
need for it to be sort of reintroduced feels necessary.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. So let me ask
you this, what was your first exposure to the popall fruit?
Were you a kid? Tell us a little bit about
that and how that went.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Sure, So, I grew up kind of in rural Virginia
and always outdoors and never knew about pop paw until
I was in my late twenties or mid to late twenties,
And it was sort of this wake up moment where
you feel like, how was this around me and I
didn't know about it. I was out with my dad
(03:19):
and one of his friends and we're walking down what
just looks like a normal trail and then he says,
have you ever tried to popaf And we pull one
down and we eat it, and it was like that
scene from Ratitui where he tastes the food and all
the colors and flashing lights, and it was just this
magical moment and this feeling of how, you know, how
(03:39):
did I not know about this? I started doing a
little research, and I just I caught the bug. We
lovingly call ourselves pop pot nuts because it's sort of
this intoxicating quest for knowledge and knowing about this hidden
secret that shouldn't be a secret, right, I.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Agree, it definitely should not be a secret. So your
first experience, you were in the middle of the woods
and you guys try one out there? What it for
people who haven't had one? What does it taste like.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
It's frequently people describe it as a mix between a
mango and a banana, but the flavored profiles are so
diverse that some folks might say, yeah, I get hints
of pineapple or bubble gum or even you know, caramel
and coffee and oh wow. So it's really it's quite diverse.
(04:32):
And it also depends kind of how long it's been ripening. Okay,
similar to the way of banana ripens.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
You know, you get it early on.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
It's a little brighter, almost.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Citrusy, and then as it ages.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
And it darkens, it gets that kind of rich caramel,
more full taste. I love that, but you know, it's
it's a wild, forgeible fruit. You'll often see them by
streams and rivers and they have these huge leaves and it.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
It's funny because, like I was saying.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Earlier, when you don't know about them, they're just perfectly camouflaged.
And then once you learn how to identify them, you
see them everywhere.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
That's awesome. That's so awesome. So and you're not even
an ag teacher, right, Like, it's not like history. Yeah,
it's not like this is Your focus is produce and
things like that. But you are a history teacher, So
why don't you tell us a little bit of the
history of this this fruit.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
It runs really deep the earliest accounts of you know,
indigenous people. There's stories from every every aspect of North
American culture.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
The reason for all the naming of the fruit and
why papa and North American papa. It goes back to
when you know, European explorers were coming to the Americas
and they saw indigenous folks eating papa, North American papa
and they said, wow, that really looks like papaya that
(05:59):
we see all around the Caribbean. And you know where
they just were so let's just call it papa, and
that stuck. So, you know, indigenous people's were you know,
using the papa obviously for the fruit. It's a seasonal fruit,
so you get about six to eight weeks i would.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Say in the year, maybe a little longer, maybe a.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Little shorter, but it is a you know, really densely
packed superfood. You know, more potassium than a banana, more
vitamins that that normal fruits typical fruits have. But really,
you know, it was a staple in the diet, right.
The bark itself was used for crafting, making rope and baskets,
(06:42):
bow drills, and then you know as westward expansion kind
of started and colonization, and you know, there's really a
lot of accounts of you know, folks using papa as well.
You know, Loos and Clark talk about needing to rely
on papa in a survival scenario. A lot of presidents
(07:05):
really kind of we're in love with the paw paw.
There's a rumor it was George Washington's favorite fruit.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
We know that he planted some.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
We know that Jefferson was really into it, planning at
Monticello and sending seeds back to so France. We know
that even in the modern modern world talking about presidents.
Michelle Obama even planted some papa's at the White House garden.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Hopefully they're still there, right.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
But it's really it's been a it's woven its way
through the fabrics of American history.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
It's his American is baseball, I would think, right, oh yeah,
that's pretty fair.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Right, Oh yeah, one hundred percent. They say it's more
American than apple pie, but the papa is actually native
to North America.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Right, So, why don't we talk about what was your experience?
You you fell in love you you know, I wanted
to get into farming. So how did that happen? Like,
walk us through the thought processes, the steps that you
had to take to start your farm, and let's talk
more about that.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Sure, yeah, so I guess we started back in twenty seventeen,
twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen, and again just sort of
a hobby project, wanting to grow something that I didn't
know much about at that point, and so it was
a lot of trial and error. There are a lot
(08:34):
of a lot of knowledgeable people growing you know, orchard
crops and doing research and so using some of what
they had learned. People like Neil Peterson Kentucky State University
have done some really good research and just trying to
explore and experiment how pop pop could work as a crop. Ye,
(09:02):
And so we started with you know, twenty four trees maybe,
and then as you learn more and some of those die,
it's like, okay, well now I got to try some more.
So all of these you know, grown from seed, and
that went to fifty trees, and then it went to
one hundred trees and at this point we're around two
(09:23):
hundred trees.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
And the nice thing about you know, orchard trees is
unlike a lot of row crops where you have to
constantly be planting and plowing and fertilizing and irrigating, the
fruit trees really, once you put it in and you
give it care, once it's established, they take care of themselves.
(09:48):
And not only that, with native plants, they are acclimated
to the environment already. So once it's in the ground,
it's where it's supposed to be, right.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
You don't have to fight nature to keep it alive.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Basically exactly, yeah, exactly. You're not trying to put something
where it's not supposed to be right.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
So what are some of the obstacles that you ran
into in the beginning that you might not have expected.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Because everyone has different opinions and there's a lot of
different sort of thoughts and beliefs on how to care
for these things.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Sunlight was a big one.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Really.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
In the wild, you'll find pap pause as an understory tree,
so in the woods, along the edges of streams and rivers,
or even on the edges of paddocks. So when you
put it in full sun, it's getting a lot more
sunlight than it's used to. Now, there's a lot of
caveats with this, because what we have found and the
(10:49):
data supports is that when a pap pause in full
sun you get much more vigorous growth, bigger, better fruits.
But it's it's weak. They can't handle the full sun
when they're fairly young. Now, there's a ton of people
who will disagree with me on this because sunlight is
(11:10):
different wherever you are right so.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Far is not an exact science by any.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Means, and everyone has a different opinion and say, well
it works fine on my farm, Well that's great, I'm.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Glad on my farm. I found that.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
If I don't shade my trees, they fry, so you know,
you got to protect them until they're tall enough. So
that that was sort of a learning curve. But at
the same time, you'll talk to a farmer in Pennsylvania
or Georgia and they'll say, well, I've never shaded my
popaws and they're fine. And so it's one of those
(11:49):
things that I don't really have an answer for it, right.
I think everyone can agree that water is a big one.
So it's it's learning opportunities like that where we sort
of have to play around and see what works for
your environment.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, so when when it comes to your farm, obviously
you had to negotiate. That is definitely something you had
to figure out for your location. When you did you
already own the land that you turned into a farm
or did you have to go out and seek it
and did you know to look for water.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
It's where I grew up, it's the family farm, so
it you know, at one point I was thinking, oh,
it'd be nice to get a plot of land closer
to where I live. I lived down in Richmond from
Virginia and the farm is about two hours away, and
I was thinking, well, it'd be nice to get closer.
(12:48):
But you know, there is something really magical about growing
food on the same place where you grew up, and
it brings me so much joy being able to be
there and sort of reconnect with the land. And you know,
(13:09):
these trees live.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Long, hopefully if everything we're doing works.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Out right, and so it's it's nice to think about, Wow, yeah,
I planted this tree. You know in twenty twenty five,
it'll be around for hopefully multiple generations and that's really exciting.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, definitely. Now do they are they able to bear
fruit in the first year? Do you have to wait
three to five years? I mean, if I were to
come from you, what would I expect?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah, it's they are.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
The phrase I use is.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
A fruit of patients like that. The average that people say,
you know, it's five to seven years, and for a
lot of folks they don't want to wait, and that
makes sense.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Sometimes I'll have some older customers come up and say like, oh,
you know, it'd be great if I could plant a
pop powtrey, and I'm like, we'll do it, and they're like, well,
you know, I want to be able to see it fruit.
It's like well, you know, plant it for the next generation,
plant it for everyone else. It's a long it's a
long wait. So they follow that phrase of a lot
(14:26):
of fruit trees. You know, the first year they sleep,
the second year they creep, the third year they leap.
So often you'll get a one year old pap pottery
and not see it do anything for a couple of years,
and people and they're thinking, wow, you know what a dud,
(14:47):
I got a bad tree. It's like, no, this is
just nature. Things move slowly. Those incredible white oaks that
we see that have been around for hundreds of years,
you know, they take a while to get there. Oh yeah,
And it's the thing with paws, so it's definitely a
(15:08):
fruit of patients. It takes you know, anywhere from five
to seven years is sort of the average for it
to actually bear fruit. There are ways to speed that
up and to get it, you know, sooner than that.
But like a lot of trees that have been around
(15:29):
for long times, like these these stunning white oaks oliver
that have been here for hundreds of years in our lifetime,
we only see a little bit of that growth. And
paw paws, just like those things that are worth waiting
for it. They do take a while, and so for
some you know people who sometimes come to my booth,
(15:52):
you know, older folks who are like, well, you know,
I guess I could plan it for my kids, or oh,
you know, I'm not sure I'm going to be in
the same location for a long time. That might be
a turnoff. And the desire to plant and not want
to wait can deter you know, people from growing. That's
(16:14):
why places like farmers' markets are always a you know,
a great resource for pawpaw growers, but also people who
want to get the fruit. The shelf life makes it
pretty difficult to harvest and hold and keep the fruit viable.
(16:36):
You know, a right paw paw really out outside of
the refrigerator only lasts for about two to three days,
which is why a lot of people might say it'll
never be a commercial crop. You'll never see it in
the grocery store, which I would disagree with. Right if,
(16:58):
if with the right time on harvest, with the right refrigeration,
you know, treat it like a raspberry. That's why raspberries
are in those those really soft containers and they have
to be refrigerated. You know, leave a raspberry out on
(17:18):
the counter for a few days and it's not going
to be very good anymore. Right, Poppau's are the same
way I've I've gotten my you know, time up to
about six weeks. Wow, it's a lot of experimentation, and
you know, we check out the research and the data
and places like Chaos Kentucky State University are are doing
(17:42):
great work on all. Right. You know, here's the the temperature,
here's how some folks are freezing the fruits, and so
they're they're definite.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Ways to make this.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
A fruit that people can taste out of season as well.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Right, it's almost like a taste of history, yes, because
it's almost.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Disappeared absolutely, And that is really the main reason in
my eyes as to why people don't know about it
anymore is because of that grocery industry. Right. You know,
you hear stories from folks who were told to you know, hey,
(18:29):
go walk by the creek on your way home and
see if you can find us a pop off or dessert.
Where food was much more hyper local and you ate
what was around you, whether you grew it yourself, or
it was your neighbor, or it was just you know,
your town market. Food didn't need to travel quite as much.
(18:53):
So the idea of.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Something that you had to.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Go out and find or you know, something close in
your area sort of started to fade. Even now, the
pairs that you get at the supermarket, you know, likely
weren't even grown in the US, right, right, So I
think that's a big problem that can easily be fixed.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, And I think with education and more people being exposed,
I think it's slowly turning that way. I don't know
about you, but you know, I've seen more and more
people realize that there are a lot of foods that
used to be very commonplace that we can't even get
at the farmer's market sometimes, you know, and they grow
in our yard and we didn't even know it was
a food, you know, exactly. So why don't we talk
(19:47):
a little bit about this on your farm? If I come,
do you guys offer tours, do you invite schools, do
you do classes? Do you sell the plants, do you
sell the veggies? Tell tell me all of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
So at the moment, we're not open to the public
because it is so seasonal, and most of my time
it's it's pretty poor timing because Papa harvest season is
the very start of the school year. Oh wow, So August, September,
(20:21):
October are the times where Mike's not answering his phone.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yeah, you're barely sleeping.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I bet I'm barely sleeping. But it's it's worth it.
So usually you know, at this at this point, it's
mainly wholesale for fruit, and then you know, I can
get a couple of volunteers or or hire you know,
some folks to go out to the farmers' markets and
things like that. That being said, the trees, you know,
(20:54):
we can sell at any time of the year pretty much,
except I don't tell them the summer because it's way
too hot for people to be planting trees in the summer. Right,
But everything is all on our website, woodsidepapaul dot com,
and that's sort of where I kind of update everything
to say, all right, you know, open for sales. You know,
(21:19):
people looking to buy wholesale or bulk. You know, there's
a lot of interest in brewing with popa, which is
really exciting.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Wait a minute, brewing.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Oh yeah, we're going to get some popaf beers. Were
already some out there that are delicious.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
That's awesome. I was going to ask you your favorite
recipe for like food, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Oh yeah, I mean food.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
I'm I don't even know where to begin.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I really enjoy the ice cream that's typically a lot
of folks favorite. The The idea is that anything you
can do with banana, you can do with papa Oh wow,
So like bread bread, yeah, oh yeah, that's a big one.
(22:04):
We make a really good jam and the jam is
is sort of my go to shelf stable one, and
I did a baked breeze with it once that was
that sounds incredible. That maybe the greatest thing I've ever eaten.
(22:26):
The only downside with some of the cooking is, you know,
you cannot dehydrate it, so you know, there won't ever
be like chips, yeah, Papa chips or you know, Pop
Paul fruit leather or anything like that. There's some sort
of chemical change that from what I remember, it's it's
(22:50):
something to do with the fatty acids that turn rancid
and so it you know, if you overcook your Papa bread,
you know there's risk for some gi issues, right, but
you know.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I mean that's true of all kind of food, you know,
like that's just true.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
So yeah, so that's awesome. That's that's the downside in
terms of you know, cooking, but most most otherwise you
can do a lot of really cool stuff. And I
think that you know, more experimental chefs are really kind
of excited about the potential.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, That's what my next question was going to be,
is are there any restaurants any either in Richmond or
you know, closer to your farm that are interested in
experimenting and adding that to their menu.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
I've heard a lot of you know, random sort of
restaurants trying something out. I think the issue that a
lot of people have is bulk. You know, how do
they get enough fruit to offer something? Now they can
(24:05):
go out and forage, but depending on legality and where
they're foraging and things like that, you know, they don't
want to get into trouble. But I've heard there in
a little Washington down in Rappahannock, Virginia, they had like
(24:25):
a paw paw cream puff at one point. I've heard
of some There's a restaurant in Richmond, shag Bark, they
had something. They pop up every now and then. I
think the chef Jose Andres is wanting to do some
(24:46):
stuff and maybe he's already experimenting. So I think there's
a lot of potential out there, and I think that
the main issue for folks, chefs, restaurants.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Is how to get their product.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
And that's something that you know, I hope to help
because I think I think the more people that are
aware and interested and growing, the better for for our culture.
And you know, sometimes folks are like, oh, I'm putting
(25:27):
in a couple of Pop Pause. You're gonna have some competition,
and I'm thinking that's great, right, that is awesome, Like
plant more, I'll give you the seedlings, like let's let's
do this thing. There's always a really a ton of
interest in pop Pause right around or before harvest, which
(25:49):
and our part of Virginia is around the second week
of September. It was a little earlier this past year.
So all these folks are really excited and want to
hear more and more about pop Pause, and all the
articles come out and everyone's trying to source, and then
as soon as the season's over, everyone forgets about pop
al again. So for a six to eight week period,
(26:17):
pop PA's are the hot, new, exciting superfood, and then
people forget about it again. Right, So.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Kind of like the pumpkin spice latte.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yes, it's the same season and people are super excited
and everything pop pa, and then it fades back into
the ether until the following year.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
So would you say that because these are and I've
noticed this in my own research about native foods, they tend,
like you said, to be way more nutritious than the
grocery store food. Would you say it's a good option
for young children. I mean, obviously you want to make
sure there's no allergies things like that, But I mean,
you know, when you're teaching a toddler to eat food,
(27:03):
you're that's part of what you're doing, one food at
a time, anyway, is avoiding allergies. I would assume that
these native foods like paupaul and others would be extra
nutritious for young young the little ones, the babies, the toddlers,
the preschoolers.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
It's entirely possible. I don't know enough about it to
recommend either way. I do know that some folks have
sensitivity to papa, similar to you know sometimes people have
like a mango allergy or a banana allergy. It's very specific.
(27:41):
It's not going to be like you're allergic to peanuts
or nuts. You're not going to be able to have papa.
It's it's going to be a very specific sort of thing,
just the way our bodies work, so right, you know,
for for people who have asked in the past, Doctor,
(28:02):
I don't recommend it for you know, babies, but you know,
I think that's up for each.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. And I hate
this because I have so many questions still, but we're
coming up on the end of our time. So I
want to give you a chance to promote your website
and tell people, you know, when to look for your
stuff and at which farmers markets and all those things
so that people can experience your your harvest this year.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Awesome. Yeah, So all of our information will be either
on the website www dot woodside poppau dot com or
via Instagram the way of social media, which is just
at Woodside pop Paw, and that's where we'll list all
of the certain vending opportunities. Places will be for fruit
(28:57):
tree sales and some consumer products like jam and candy
and things like that. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Awesome. So that's Woodside Paulpaul dot com. All one word,
all one word awesome. Well, I really do appreciate you
making time for me today. I am so excited that
we got to chat. I really do hope that we can.
I'm with you. I want more people to understand about
native foods and to be a part of that movement
in adding that to our regular diet, because I think
(29:29):
that would be great. And I'm just glad we got
to connect today.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yes, thank you so much for having me, Rebecca.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I hope you've enjoyed today's show. Thanks for tuning into
the show on your favorite local radio station. You can
now listen to this show or past shows through the
iheartapp or on iHeart dot com. Just search for Virginia
Focus under podcasts. I'm Rebecca Hughes with a Virginia news network,
and I'll be here next week on Virginia Focus
Welcome to Virginia Focused. I'm Rebecca Hughes of the Virginia
News Network. Before colonists brought their foods from other regions
of the world, indigenous people thrived on foods native to
North America. A new movement is gaining traction, encouraging farms
to reintroduce first foods like per Simon ramps and pulpol
(00:24):
fruit to help decolonize diets and reduce reliance on external
food systems that may not be sustainable due to cost
and climate change. Today we're learning more from Mike Furster,
a Virginia educator and pallpol farmer who's also joining the
movement to grow and research a once popular fruit. Welcome
to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm so glad you could come on here today and
tell us more about your pet project.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Absolutely, thank you so much for having me so.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
First, why don't you tell us a little bit about
who you are and how you got into this.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Absolutely. My name's Mike Furster. I'm the founder and head
orchardist over at Woodside Paw Paw. We really run an
orchard and nursery focused entirely on the North American pop
pap The reason I say North American Pa pause based
on how confusing the name can be, because if you
ask anyone from any other part of the world when
(01:17):
you say Pa Paul, they're thinking papaya. So we're really
trying to push the North American papause the terminology. But
we have a orchard in one part of Virginia and
then a plant nursery and another, and we're entirely focused
just on that North American Papa. While it would be
fun to expand into other things, we've got our primary
(01:38):
focus just because Papa is incredible.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, yeah, And so that's not all you do, though,
this is like your side gig, right.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
It is.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
It is.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I am a teacher full time, and because Papa is
so seasonal, it was sort of the perfect side project,
kind of a passion project to really explore and edge people.
So I get to tie in two of my loves,
which is teaching but also getting to be outside. And
Papa is still relatively unknown. When people ask you know,
(02:12):
what do you grow and say Papa, they're like, what
is that? And so so much of what I do
is really sharing stories and sharing the history and you know,
sort of trying to spread the word on what papa
is because it used to be a huge, huge part
of culture here. Ask anyone who grew up in Mid
(02:34):
East Coast over the age of eighty, and they'll say, oh, yeah,
I remember a papa. There's a whole lot of reasons
for why it sort of fell into obscurity, but the
need for it to be sort of reintroduced feels necessary.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. So let me ask
you this, what was your first exposure to the popall fruit?
Were you a kid? Tell us a little bit about
that and how that went.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Sure, So, I grew up kind of in rural Virginia
and always outdoors and never knew about pop paw until
I was in my late twenties or mid to late twenties,
And it was sort of this wake up moment where
you feel like, how was this around me and I
didn't know about it. I was out with my dad
(03:19):
and one of his friends and we're walking down what
just looks like a normal trail and then he says,
have you ever tried to popaf And we pull one
down and we eat it, and it was like that
scene from Ratitui where he tastes the food and all
the colors and flashing lights, and it was just this
magical moment and this feeling of how, you know, how
(03:39):
did I not know about this? I started doing a
little research, and I just I caught the bug. We
lovingly call ourselves pop pot nuts because it's sort of
this intoxicating quest for knowledge and knowing about this hidden
secret that shouldn't be a secret, right, I.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Agree, it definitely should not be a secret. So your
first experience, you were in the middle of the woods
and you guys try one out there? What it for
people who haven't had one? What does it taste like.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
It's frequently people describe it as a mix between a
mango and a banana, but the flavored profiles are so
diverse that some folks might say, yeah, I get hints
of pineapple or bubble gum or even you know, caramel
and coffee and oh wow. So it's really it's quite diverse.
(04:32):
And it also depends kind of how long it's been ripening. Okay,
similar to the way of banana ripens.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
You know, you get it early on.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
It's a little brighter, almost.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Citrusy, and then as it ages.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
And it darkens, it gets that kind of rich caramel,
more full taste. I love that, but you know, it's
it's a wild, forgeible fruit. You'll often see them by
streams and rivers and they have these huge leaves and it.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
It's funny because, like I was saying.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Earlier, when you don't know about them, they're just perfectly camouflaged.
And then once you learn how to identify them, you
see them everywhere.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
That's awesome. That's so awesome. So and you're not even
an ag teacher, right, Like, it's not like history. Yeah,
it's not like this is Your focus is produce and
things like that. But you are a history teacher, So
why don't you tell us a little bit of the
history of this this fruit.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
It runs really deep the earliest accounts of you know,
indigenous people. There's stories from every every aspect of North
American culture.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
The reason for all the naming of the fruit and
why papa and North American papa. It goes back to
when you know, European explorers were coming to the Americas
and they saw indigenous folks eating papa, North American papa
and they said, wow, that really looks like papaya that
(05:59):
we see all around the Caribbean. And you know where
they just were so let's just call it papa, and
that stuck. So, you know, indigenous people's were you know,
using the papa obviously for the fruit. It's a seasonal fruit,
so you get about six to eight weeks i would.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Say in the year, maybe a little longer, maybe a.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Little shorter, but it is a you know, really densely
packed superfood. You know, more potassium than a banana, more
vitamins that that normal fruits typical fruits have. But really,
you know, it was a staple in the diet, right.
The bark itself was used for crafting, making rope and baskets,
(06:42):
bow drills, and then you know as westward expansion kind
of started and colonization, and you know, there's really a
lot of accounts of you know, folks using papa as well.
You know, Loos and Clark talk about needing to rely
on papa in a survival scenario. A lot of presidents
(07:05):
really kind of we're in love with the paw paw.
There's a rumor it was George Washington's favorite fruit.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
We know that he planted some.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
We know that Jefferson was really into it, planning at
Monticello and sending seeds back to so France. We know
that even in the modern modern world talking about presidents.
Michelle Obama even planted some papa's at the White House garden.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Hopefully they're still there, right.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
But it's really it's been a it's woven its way
through the fabrics of American history.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
It's his American is baseball, I would think, right, oh yeah,
that's pretty fair.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Right, Oh yeah, one hundred percent. They say it's more
American than apple pie, but the papa is actually native
to North America.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Right, So, why don't we talk about what was your experience?
You you fell in love you you know, I wanted
to get into farming. So how did that happen? Like,
walk us through the thought processes, the steps that you
had to take to start your farm, and let's talk
more about that.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Sure, yeah, so I guess we started back in twenty seventeen,
twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen, and again just sort of
a hobby project, wanting to grow something that I didn't
know much about at that point, and so it was
a lot of trial and error. There are a lot
(08:34):
of a lot of knowledgeable people growing you know, orchard
crops and doing research and so using some of what
they had learned. People like Neil Peterson Kentucky State University
have done some really good research and just trying to
explore and experiment how pop pop could work as a crop. Ye,
(09:02):
And so we started with you know, twenty four trees maybe,
and then as you learn more and some of those die,
it's like, okay, well now I got to try some more.
So all of these you know, grown from seed, and
that went to fifty trees, and then it went to
one hundred trees and at this point we're around two
(09:23):
hundred trees.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
And the nice thing about you know, orchard trees is
unlike a lot of row crops where you have to
constantly be planting and plowing and fertilizing and irrigating, the
fruit trees really, once you put it in and you
give it care, once it's established, they take care of themselves.
(09:48):
And not only that, with native plants, they are acclimated
to the environment already. So once it's in the ground,
it's where it's supposed to be, right.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
You don't have to fight nature to keep it alive.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Basically exactly, yeah, exactly. You're not trying to put something
where it's not supposed to be right.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
So what are some of the obstacles that you ran
into in the beginning that you might not have expected.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Because everyone has different opinions and there's a lot of
different sort of thoughts and beliefs on how to care
for these things.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Sunlight was a big one.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Really.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
In the wild, you'll find pap pause as an understory tree,
so in the woods, along the edges of streams and rivers,
or even on the edges of paddocks. So when you
put it in full sun, it's getting a lot more
sunlight than it's used to. Now, there's a lot of
caveats with this, because what we have found and the
(10:49):
data supports is that when a pap pause in full
sun you get much more vigorous growth, bigger, better fruits.
But it's it's weak. They can't handle the full sun
when they're fairly young. Now, there's a ton of people
who will disagree with me on this because sunlight is
(11:10):
different wherever you are right so.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Far is not an exact science by any.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Means, and everyone has a different opinion and say, well
it works fine on my farm, Well that's great, I'm.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Glad on my farm. I found that.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
If I don't shade my trees, they fry, so you know,
you got to protect them until they're tall enough. So
that that was sort of a learning curve. But at
the same time, you'll talk to a farmer in Pennsylvania
or Georgia and they'll say, well, I've never shaded my
popaws and they're fine. And so it's one of those
(11:49):
things that I don't really have an answer for it, right.
I think everyone can agree that water is a big one.
So it's it's learning opportunities like that where we sort
of have to play around and see what works for
your environment.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, so when when it comes to your farm, obviously
you had to negotiate. That is definitely something you had
to figure out for your location. When you did you
already own the land that you turned into a farm
or did you have to go out and seek it
and did you know to look for water.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
It's where I grew up, it's the family farm, so
it you know, at one point I was thinking, oh,
it'd be nice to get a plot of land closer
to where I live. I lived down in Richmond from
Virginia and the farm is about two hours away, and
I was thinking, well, it'd be nice to get closer.
(12:48):
But you know, there is something really magical about growing
food on the same place where you grew up, and
it brings me so much joy being able to be
there and sort of reconnect with the land. And you know,
(13:09):
these trees live.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Long, hopefully if everything we're doing works.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Out right, and so it's it's nice to think about, Wow, yeah,
I planted this tree. You know in twenty twenty five,
it'll be around for hopefully multiple generations and that's really exciting.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, definitely. Now do they are they able to bear
fruit in the first year? Do you have to wait
three to five years? I mean, if I were to
come from you, what would I expect?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah, it's they are.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
The phrase I use is.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
A fruit of patients like that. The average that people say,
you know, it's five to seven years, and for a
lot of folks they don't want to wait, and that
makes sense.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Sometimes I'll have some older customers come up and say like, oh,
you know, it'd be great if I could plant a
pop powtrey, and I'm like, we'll do it, and they're like, well,
you know, I want to be able to see it fruit.
It's like well, you know, plant it for the next generation,
plant it for everyone else. It's a long it's a
long wait. So they follow that phrase of a lot
(14:26):
of fruit trees. You know, the first year they sleep,
the second year they creep, the third year they leap.
So often you'll get a one year old pap pottery
and not see it do anything for a couple of years,
and people and they're thinking, wow, you know what a dud,
(14:47):
I got a bad tree. It's like, no, this is
just nature. Things move slowly. Those incredible white oaks that
we see that have been around for hundreds of years,
you know, they take a while to get there. Oh yeah,
And it's the thing with paws, so it's definitely a
(15:08):
fruit of patients. It takes you know, anywhere from five
to seven years is sort of the average for it
to actually bear fruit. There are ways to speed that
up and to get it, you know, sooner than that.
But like a lot of trees that have been around
(15:29):
for long times, like these these stunning white oaks oliver
that have been here for hundreds of years in our lifetime,
we only see a little bit of that growth. And
paw paws, just like those things that are worth waiting
for it. They do take a while, and so for
some you know people who sometimes come to my booth,
(15:52):
you know, older folks who are like, well, you know,
I guess I could plan it for my kids, or oh,
you know, I'm not sure I'm going to be in
the same location for a long time. That might be
a turnoff. And the desire to plant and not want
to wait can deter you know, people from growing. That's
(16:14):
why places like farmers' markets are always a you know,
a great resource for pawpaw growers, but also people who
want to get the fruit. The shelf life makes it
pretty difficult to harvest and hold and keep the fruit viable.
(16:36):
You know, a right paw paw really out outside of
the refrigerator only lasts for about two to three days,
which is why a lot of people might say it'll
never be a commercial crop. You'll never see it in
the grocery store, which I would disagree with. Right if,
(16:58):
if with the right time on harvest, with the right refrigeration,
you know, treat it like a raspberry. That's why raspberries
are in those those really soft containers and they have
to be refrigerated. You know, leave a raspberry out on
(17:18):
the counter for a few days and it's not going
to be very good anymore. Right, Poppau's are the same
way I've I've gotten my you know, time up to
about six weeks. Wow, it's a lot of experimentation, and
you know, we check out the research and the data
and places like Chaos Kentucky State University are are doing
(17:42):
great work on all. Right. You know, here's the the temperature,
here's how some folks are freezing the fruits, and so
they're they're definite.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Ways to make this.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
A fruit that people can taste out of season as well.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Right, it's almost like a taste of history, yes, because
it's almost.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Disappeared absolutely, And that is really the main reason in
my eyes as to why people don't know about it
anymore is because of that grocery industry. Right. You know,
you hear stories from folks who were told to you know, hey,
(18:29):
go walk by the creek on your way home and
see if you can find us a pop off or dessert.
Where food was much more hyper local and you ate
what was around you, whether you grew it yourself, or
it was your neighbor, or it was just you know,
your town market. Food didn't need to travel quite as much.
(18:53):
So the idea of.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Something that you had to.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Go out and find or you know, something close in
your area sort of started to fade. Even now, the
pairs that you get at the supermarket, you know, likely
weren't even grown in the US, right, right, So I
think that's a big problem that can easily be fixed.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, And I think with education and more people being exposed,
I think it's slowly turning that way. I don't know
about you, but you know, I've seen more and more
people realize that there are a lot of foods that
used to be very commonplace that we can't even get
at the farmer's market sometimes, you know, and they grow
in our yard and we didn't even know it was
a food, you know, exactly. So why don't we talk
(19:47):
a little bit about this on your farm? If I come,
do you guys offer tours, do you invite schools, do
you do classes? Do you sell the plants, do you
sell the veggies? Tell tell me all of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
So at the moment, we're not open to the public
because it is so seasonal, and most of my time
it's it's pretty poor timing because Papa harvest season is
the very start of the school year. Oh wow, So August, September,
(20:21):
October are the times where Mike's not answering his phone.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yeah, you're barely sleeping.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I bet I'm barely sleeping. But it's it's worth it.
So usually you know, at this at this point, it's
mainly wholesale for fruit, and then you know, I can
get a couple of volunteers or or hire you know,
some folks to go out to the farmers' markets and
things like that. That being said, the trees, you know,
(20:54):
we can sell at any time of the year pretty much,
except I don't tell them the summer because it's way
too hot for people to be planting trees in the summer. Right,
But everything is all on our website, woodsidepapaul dot com,
and that's sort of where I kind of update everything
to say, all right, you know, open for sales. You know,
(21:19):
people looking to buy wholesale or bulk. You know, there's
a lot of interest in brewing with popa, which is
really exciting.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Wait a minute, brewing.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Oh yeah, we're going to get some popaf beers. Were
already some out there that are delicious.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
That's awesome. I was going to ask you your favorite
recipe for like food, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Oh yeah, I mean food.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
I'm I don't even know where to begin.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I really enjoy the ice cream that's typically a lot
of folks favorite. The The idea is that anything you
can do with banana, you can do with papa Oh wow,
So like bread bread, yeah, oh yeah, that's a big one.
(22:04):
We make a really good jam and the jam is
is sort of my go to shelf stable one, and
I did a baked breeze with it once that was
that sounds incredible. That maybe the greatest thing I've ever eaten.
(22:26):
The only downside with some of the cooking is, you know,
you cannot dehydrate it, so you know, there won't ever
be like chips, yeah, Papa chips or you know, Pop
Paul fruit leather or anything like that. There's some sort
of chemical change that from what I remember, it's it's
(22:50):
something to do with the fatty acids that turn rancid
and so it you know, if you overcook your Papa bread,
you know there's risk for some gi issues, right, but
you know.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I mean that's true of all kind of food, you know,
like that's just true.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
So yeah, so that's awesome. That's that's the downside in
terms of you know, cooking, but most most otherwise you
can do a lot of really cool stuff. And I
think that you know, more experimental chefs are really kind
of excited about the potential.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, That's what my next question was going to be,
is are there any restaurants any either in Richmond or
you know, closer to your farm that are interested in
experimenting and adding that to their menu.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
I've heard a lot of you know, random sort of
restaurants trying something out. I think the issue that a
lot of people have is bulk. You know, how do
they get enough fruit to offer something? Now they can
(24:05):
go out and forage, but depending on legality and where
they're foraging and things like that, you know, they don't
want to get into trouble. But I've heard there in
a little Washington down in Rappahannock, Virginia, they had like
(24:25):
a paw paw cream puff at one point. I've heard
of some There's a restaurant in Richmond, shag Bark, they
had something. They pop up every now and then. I
think the chef Jose Andres is wanting to do some
(24:46):
stuff and maybe he's already experimenting. So I think there's
a lot of potential out there, and I think that
the main issue for folks, chefs, restaurants.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Is how to get their product.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
And that's something that you know, I hope to help
because I think I think the more people that are
aware and interested and growing, the better for for our culture.
And you know, sometimes folks are like, oh, I'm putting
(25:27):
in a couple of Pop Pause. You're gonna have some competition,
and I'm thinking that's great, right, that is awesome, Like
plant more, I'll give you the seedlings, like let's let's
do this thing. There's always a really a ton of
interest in pop Pause right around or before harvest, which
(25:49):
and our part of Virginia is around the second week
of September. It was a little earlier this past year.
So all these folks are really excited and want to
hear more and more about pop Pause, and all the
articles come out and everyone's trying to source, and then
as soon as the season's over, everyone forgets about pop
al again. So for a six to eight week period,
(26:17):
pop PA's are the hot, new, exciting superfood, and then
people forget about it again. Right, So.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Kind of like the pumpkin spice latte.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yes, it's the same season and people are super excited
and everything pop pa, and then it fades back into
the ether until the following year.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
So would you say that because these are and I've
noticed this in my own research about native foods, they tend,
like you said, to be way more nutritious than the
grocery store food. Would you say it's a good option
for young children. I mean, obviously you want to make
sure there's no allergies things like that, But I mean,
you know, when you're teaching a toddler to eat food,
(27:03):
you're that's part of what you're doing, one food at
a time, anyway, is avoiding allergies. I would assume that
these native foods like paupaul and others would be extra
nutritious for young young the little ones, the babies, the toddlers,
the preschoolers.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
It's entirely possible. I don't know enough about it to
recommend either way. I do know that some folks have
sensitivity to papa, similar to you know sometimes people have
like a mango allergy or a banana allergy. It's very specific.
(27:41):
It's not going to be like you're allergic to peanuts
or nuts. You're not going to be able to have papa.
It's it's going to be a very specific sort of thing,
just the way our bodies work, so right, you know,
for for people who have asked in the past, Doctor,
(28:02):
I don't recommend it for you know, babies, but you know,
I think that's up for each.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. And I hate
this because I have so many questions still, but we're
coming up on the end of our time. So I
want to give you a chance to promote your website
and tell people, you know, when to look for your
stuff and at which farmers markets and all those things
so that people can experience your your harvest this year.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Awesome. Yeah, So all of our information will be either
on the website www dot woodside poppau dot com or
via Instagram the way of social media, which is just
at Woodside pop Paw, and that's where we'll list all
of the certain vending opportunities. Places will be for fruit
(28:57):
tree sales and some consumer products like jam and candy
and things like that. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Awesome. So that's Woodside Paulpaul dot com. All one word,
all one word awesome. Well, I really do appreciate you
making time for me today. I am so excited that
we got to chat. I really do hope that we can.
I'm with you. I want more people to understand about
native foods and to be a part of that movement
in adding that to our regular diet, because I think
(29:29):
that would be great. And I'm just glad we got
to connect today.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yes, thank you so much for having me, Rebecca.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I hope you've enjoyed today's show. Thanks for tuning into
the show on your favorite local radio station. You can
now listen to this show or past shows through the
iheartapp or on iHeart dot com. Just search for Virginia
Focus under podcasts. I'm Rebecca Hughes with a Virginia news network,
and I'll be here next week on Virginia Focus
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