Bob Crawford, Avett Brothers Bassist - Founding Son Podcast

Bob Crawford, long-time bassist with the Avett Brothers talks with Mike Christian about his love of history and in particular, his popular podcast, Founding Son, John Quincy’s America.

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Welcome back to What's at Risk.I'm Mike Christian. The following is from
a New York Times article by JenniferSchussler. Bob Crawford is part of the
folk rock band the Avidd Brothers.He's also the host of a new podcast
about the sixth President of the UnitedStates. Founding Son, available through iHeartRadio,

(00:24):
is the latest entry in the crowdedfield of history podcasts, but it's
one where Crawford hopes to use hismusical celebrity and serious historical chops to illuminate
a complex formative period in the evolutionof American democracy. Founding Sun underlines the
story's resonance to contemporary politics with termslike one term president, alternative facts,

(00:50):
and deep state cabal. There areeven accusations of a stolen election after Adams,
despite losing the popular and electoral votes, was elevation to the presidency in
eighteen twenty five following a backroom dealin Congress. We're fortunate to have with
us Bob Crawford, the longtime basisfor the Avidd Brothers, one of America's

(01:11):
most popular bands, and even thoughhis name's not Avid, he was there
right from the beginning, so welcome, Bob. It's great to have you
here today. It's a pleasure tobe here. Thanks for inviting me.
Mike, we're going to talk aboutit. Founding son John Quincy's America,
your podcast, your very popular podcaston Apple and iHeart So what prompted you
to think about doing a podcast onJohn Quincy Adams, who probably wouldn't make

(01:36):
the top ten of anybody's president's list. But yeah, you've been pretty passionate
about you know, in my lovefor American history and my reading. What
do you do on the road witha band, especially in those old days.
We are we've been together for twentythree years and we started out traveling
in a van and a conversion vanand then a fifteen passenger van, and

(02:00):
I spent many, many hours readingbooks about American history, and of all
the figures I've come across, Ihaven't come across any like John Quincy Adams.
He was a failed one term president, probably best known as the son
of John Adams, one of ourfounding fathers. He then goes into the

(02:23):
House of Representatives. He serves therefor seventeen years. It's in the Capitol
where he dies at the age ofeighty one. He drops dead. He
probably had an aneurism. He's theonly president to go into the House after
serving as president. Well. Ineighteen thirty nine, Sumber of eighteen thirty

(02:44):
nine, as the twenty sixth Congresswas trying to form itself right an elected
speaker, there was an issue.There was an issue the New Jersey delegation
sent to separate congressional delegations. Therewas a challenging of the of the of

(03:05):
who won the election, of whatof what party slate won the election,
and the clerk was a Democrat andthe Whigs won the election, so the
Whigs. Technically, if he seatsthe Whigs, the Whigs have the majority,
the Whigs elect the speaker. Ifhe refuses to seat the Whigs,

(03:28):
the Whig congressman from New Jersey,the Democrats hold the chair and they elect
the speaker. So the House couldnot resolve this conflict. And it was
after five days of chaos when HenryWise of Virginia stands up and says,
we now we are a mob.Who do you think takes the reins of

(03:50):
the situation. John Quincy Adams,the only man the former president, stands
up and says, I've had enoughof this. I've had enough of this,
So they nominate him and they electhim. What we today would understand
the Speaker pro tem the position beingheld by Congressman Henry from my state of

(04:13):
North Carolina, and Adams held thechair. He was called Chairman of the
House. He held the chair fora couple of weeks while they got things
worked out. When they got thingsworked out, he stepped down. But
that's just a You asked me whyJohn Quincy Adams. That's one reason why
I find him endlessly fascinating. Thatmakes complete sense. I did get a

(04:36):
chance to listen to the broadcast.You did describe that series of events on
the House floor in a really compellingway, I think, And it's amazing
the parallels to today to what washappening in the House of Representatives and in
the US government all those years agoin the eighteen thirties, it's pretty incredible.

(04:59):
It's a you know, states rightsare still there. You know,
a federalist. He was more ofa federalist, I guess, looking at
the state side of it. Butyet he was a leader. It seems
like we lack a lot of thatsort of unselfish leadership perspective. Today.
What do you think about that?Oh, yeah, I agree. Philip
Hoohane, who was a one timemayor of New York City, set of

(05:21):
Adams back back in those days thatwhen see Adams failed as a president because
he refused to play politics, andso he assumes the presidency and he won't
reward his supporters with patronage. Andnot only that, he won't fire the
opposition who are holding positions in governmentif he thinks that they're doing a good

(05:46):
job. So there were people thatwere they were Andrew Jackson supporters. They
were opposed of to all of adamspolicies, but they were working in government
and they were doing their jobs properly. So Adams wouldn't wouldn't fire them.
So he wouldn't hand out patronage tohis supporters. He wouldn't fire those who
were against him. Philip Hone saidthat Adams was so beyond party politics that

(06:11):
he lost the support all the supportof all the parties. So that was
that's something about Adams like he hejust refused to play politics because he was
the son of John and Abigail Adams, and they raised him to be a
public servant and to serve his country. And to do it honestly, and

(06:32):
and and it wasn't about him,It was about doing the right thing all
the time. We all have parentwe all come from parents, and our
parents place sometimes burdens upon us.No parents placed greater burdens on their children
than John Abigail did, and itcrushed John Quincy Adams brothers. But Adams

(06:57):
rose to that and he was raisedhis service country and he did that in
multiple positions throughout his whole life.And he lived. He lived a long
time. As you already pointed out, he sort of bridged the time from
you know, the Revolutionary times towhat them were, the pre Civil War
times. And I think he actuallysaw the Battle of Bunker Hill when he

(07:18):
was a kid, and he metAbraham Lincoln in the in the house,
which is pretty interesting. That's along span of time and very and sometimes
that time is sort of forgotten betweenthe Revolutionary War and you know, his
dad as a as a president andthen when Lincoln and the Civil War happened.
But that was, as you pointedout in this podcast, also a

(07:40):
pretty momentous time. You referenced thelong shadow of his dad impacting him.
It seemed like he didn't have aneasy life. If I could infer that
he maybe he was a little depressedat different times. He lost two of
his sons, probably to alcoholism,and probably that burden of expectations that his
dad put on him really drove alot of what he did. Is that

(08:03):
your sense of it? Yes,absolutely, he had this pressure to become
president. Really his parents believe thatthat he should. What is the There's
a quote from John Adams that weput in the series in the first episode,
and it's like, if you donot rise to the head of not
only your profession, but you're butyou're serving your country, it's it's it's

(08:26):
a it's to your own lazy,lazy, laziness obstinacy. And you know,
it basically was the if you're afan of the movie, the movie
Animal House, it was basically oneof my top five. Well basically John
Adams was saying, we don't sayit these days like this, but fat,
drunk and stupid is no way togo through life. And it crushed

(08:52):
and in Adams, you know,he was a poet. He loved literature.
There was something inside of him thatwas very artistic, and he wanted
to be a poet and at timestried to dip his foot in that kind
of lifestyle, but he just knewthat he had to he had to serve

(09:13):
in public life, and he knewthat he had to rise to the top
of that. And so you mentionedhis brothers who died and his sons,
right, his sons die, Sohe has two brothers that die, and
then he goes on to some thatdie and it's because they felt the pressure
of being successful in their father's eyes. And he was a hard man like

(09:39):
his father was a hard man.So that kind of cycle was perpetuated.
Also, John Quincy Adams suffered fromwhat we would say today is depression.
He had periods of extreme depression.And the way he got through his depression
was work. He buried himself inhis work. He had an incredibly bitter

(10:03):
relationship with Andrew Jackson. The twoof them made today's squabbles in Congress look
like kids playing. Would maybe talka little bit about the root of that,
of that hostility that they had foreach other, and I don't think
it ever played itself out in termsof reconciliation, right, No, But
you know you talk about the root, Well, the root was that they

(10:26):
were very fond of one another becauseAndrew Jackson, we know, was a
military figure. And what happens downin present day Florida is Jackson gets himself
into a controversy where he essentially hangstwo British soldiers and Madison and Monroe,
those administrations were he became this thisthorny diplomatic situation. Adams, who was

(10:54):
in the cabinet in the Monroe cabinet, supported Jackson and went to bat for
him, and so they had thisgreat respect for one another. And Adams,
I think as that eighteen Adams waselected president in eighteen twenty four,
and as that cycle began, Adamsimagined Jackson as his vice president. But

(11:20):
Jackson had this personal popularity among theAmerican people. Let's think of Adams as
the establishment and Jackson as the outsider. And it's a time when the nation
is expanding west. All these newstates are starting to come in, and
it's people are moving from the eastto the west. And what drives you

(11:43):
to move from the east to thewest to be a pioneer. It's like
your belief that you're striking out fora better life and you're pulling yourself up
by your bootstraps, and the worldwas looking to the west, youth,
big momentum expansion that was all headingwest, and those individuals didn't identify with

(12:09):
the establishment, the old Eastern establishment, just like today, you know.
And Adams was the establishment. Heis the son of a founding father.
What happens every generation, you rejectsome of the sensibilities of the generation that
came before you. So this postfounding generation in some ways rejected the elitism

(12:33):
that founded the nation. And Jacksonwas the hero of the Battle of New
Orleans. He was this rough,rough un figure who pulled himself up by
his bootstraps. He didn't go toHarvard, No, I mean, I
think he studied law in Salisbury,North Carolina, and he struck out from

(12:54):
the waxaws of North Carolina to Tennesseeand that's where he made his life.
And so then he became this militaryfigure, this great hero. So the
populist movement that was happening saw Jacksonas their leader. And when the election

(13:16):
came, he was the dark horse, the guy who came out of nowhere.
And so you have five men runningfor president in eighteen twenty four.
You have Adams, who was thetwo term Secretary of State for James Monroe.
You have William Crawford, no relationto myself, who served in the

(13:39):
cabinet. He was Treasury I believe. You have John C. Calhoun,
who was Secretary of the Army,of the Military Defense, however we would
say it today. And then youhad Henry Clay, who was the Speaker
of the House. And then youhad Jackson, and so Jackson, no

(14:03):
one want a majority of electoral votes, but Jackson wan plurality, and so
that election was sent into the Houseof Representatives where the top three candidates would
be elected, not by the peopleonce. Once it goes to the House,
no longer do the people have avote. Now it's the congressional delegations.

(14:26):
You get a vote. Right,This is all sounding very similar to
the chaos that we fear happening todayand or sure right. So so in
that process of an election in theHouse, Calhoun drops out says I want
to be vice president, and theit's the top three. Clay had the

(14:48):
least amount of votes, So youhave Jackson who got the most amount of
votes. You have Adams, andyou have Crawford. Well, Crawford just
had a stroke, he he youknow, he's he probably won't survive a
term, but he's still in themix. But Clay hates Andrew Jackson,
hates him with a he can tastehow much he hates him. Because back

(15:13):
when John Quincy Adams was standing upfor Andrew Jackson, it was Henry Clay
who was condemning Andrew Jackson. Sothese two men absolutely hate each other.
And Clay says, Adams is theclosest in ideology to what I believe.
I'm gonna support Adams. And whenhe supports Adams, he goes to certain

(15:37):
state delegations and he lobbies on behalfof Adams, and he really changes some
votes from how they're gonna go.And so Adams wins that election in the
House thanks to Henry Clay. Andthen Adams makes the biggest mistake of his
life. He appoints Henry Clay Secretaryof State, and at the time,

(16:02):
secretary of State is the stepping stoneto the presidency. Right, So the
Jackson supporters, who are already pissedoff at Adams for winning and pissed off
at Clay, say that these twomen have engaged in corrupt bargain, that
the election has been stolen and sothis is the root of the animus between

(16:25):
Andrew Jackson and John Quincy Adams.And it went on till the very end.
Well the governor got reconciled between thetwo of them. Anyway, during
that during that period of time thatAdams was in the in the house,
slavery was a discussion. The topicof slavery was ebbed and flowed, is
a keen topic of discussion. Wouldwould you have termed him an abolitionist or

(16:48):
was he? How did he feelabout slavery? He was a fellow traveler
with the abolitionist He would not Hedid not agree with their tactics. He
thought they were radicals, like mostof the country thought they were radicals,
and he felt some of their religiousfervor and tactics in support of ending slavery

(17:12):
was actually hurting the cause, iswhat he believed. But he believed that
slavery was a moral evil and amoral wrong. And he knew, and
he confesses this in his diary,that this is going to slavery will not
end without a civil war. Heunderstands this, he can see this.

(17:34):
But in Congress he would often supportthe right of abolitionists to petition the government,
and so he was more he wasa supporter of abolitionists in terms of
freedom of speech. And this isjust a pretend question, but we could
use a leader like Adams right now. How do you think how do you

(17:57):
think he would have reacted to thesilly situations we're going through now politically,
particularly with the Republican Party. Youknow, I see him. I think
he was the original political maverick.Thinking think of John McCain on the floor
giving the thumbs down to overturning Obamacare, the signature legislation of the guy who

(18:22):
beat him for the presidency, andyou know McCain, the courage it took
to do that. Think of LizCheney going against her party on behalf of
for democracy, right, just justfor the sake of just democracy, pairing
up with people that you really don'tagree with on any other subject but the

(18:45):
pre eminent subject. Think of MittRomney in his recent stands. So I
think that that that's the way wecan understand Adams because he serves in Congress
for you know, almost two decades, and he takes this anti slavery fight
right to the center of the Houseof Representatives, the last place they wanted

(19:08):
to talk about slavery because parties wereconstituted. Democrat and Whig were north and
south. And by having a partywhere you had members who were northern and
southern, that that kept slavery atbay, because we're not going to talk
about slavery, We're gonna talk aboutall the other issues. You know.

(19:30):
Once the parties after Adams passed hisway and we'd get into the eighteen fifties,
when the parties become sectional, that'swhere the system could no longer handle
slavery right we could. We nolonger had the tools to deal with it.
So Adam's great contribution, I believe, was that in Congress he pulled

(19:53):
slavery to the center of conversation.And he did it, like I said
earlier, on the pretense of freedomof speech, that that we all we
need to talk about this. Thisis something that needs to be talked about.
And the opposition wanted to shut thatfreedom of speech down, and that

(20:17):
that is where he had his greatestbattles in the House. And so would
we need a man like Adams?We need ten men like Adams and women
like Adams. But what does victorylook like? Is what I'm trying to
get to like and it's it's likethe victory was was ripping the band aid
off the slavery issue, right likelike exposing the wound, and so we

(20:41):
always need those people. It seemslike we've lost that ability to collaborate and
to compromise unimportant issues to reach aspot where maybe nobody's happy, but we
cannot be in conflict constantly, whichis tiring for everyone, and I think
it hurts the country in terms ofour forward progress. For sure. It's

(21:03):
exhausting. I would like to encourageall of your listeners to read nineteenth century
politics, American politics. There's agreat book by Sean Wilentz. It's called
The Rise of American Democracy Jefferson toLincoln. And I want everyone to study
this period because it's not going tomake us feel better, but it's going

(21:30):
to make us realize that this hasalways been the state of American democracy.
It's always been very, very challenged, very challenging. Reading today about the
speakers situation that John Quincy Adams wasinvolved with, there were men having to
be held back from other on thehouse floor, like there are guys who

(21:52):
are leaping over desks to get toother congressmen, you know, shouting matches,
jury, the furies broke out.I think Adam said, is you
know, so history people don't change, right, Times change, technology changes,
but I think the heart of humanbeings has never changed. Yeah,

(22:15):
history repeats itself is a cliche fora reason, I guess. Yes.
Can I ask you one question onthe Avid Brothers, just because I know
I've got a lot of music fanshere. What's up with the Avit Brothers.
You're one of the most popular bandsin America and I know you tour
a lot. You've been there almostfrom the beginning. What are you guys
up to these days? Well,we just finished our touring year. We

(22:38):
played a lot of shows this yearwith Willie Nelson, which is always a
blessing, incredible. I think it'sone of the greatest things we get to
do. We've done for several yearsnow. And then we'll have a record
come out in the spring, anduh, just get back at it will
start. I think our touring yearwe start in April next year and we'll

(23:00):
be supporting a new record and doall the things that go along with that.
Oh, kudos to you guys.I know it wasn't an overnight success,
like a lot of very successful bands. I know you worked at it
for a long time, but youknow, great job and where you've gotten.
You have a lot of fans,including me. I'm so glad to
hear that. Thank you so much. I appreciate what's next for you?

(23:22):
You're thinking about another podcast? Thisone's over because he died at the end.
So are you thinking about something else? Oh? Yeah, yeah,
I'm thinking about William Henry Seward inthe eighteen fifties, and I think the
eighteen fifties are that's kind of wherewe need to look right now because things
are real chaotic today and I wantto show you another time that things were

(23:45):
really chaotic. So, you know, eighteen fifties and William Henry Seward,
I think is our tour guide.John Quincy Adams was such a great tour
guide for the eighteen thirties and eighteenforties. I kind of been doing a
lot of reading and research and figureout who, who who should take us
through the eighteen fifties, and Ithink there's no one better than than mister

(24:06):
Seward. So good for you.Maybe you can get this to the screen
that now the ken burns on yourside as a as a vocal actor.
Maybe it can inspire us a littleoutside of his sweets. Buddy usually text
these broader themes rather than individuals,but I think it's something that is worthy
of a PBS special from my perspective. Anyway, there's any producers out there,

(24:30):
feel free to reach out. It'sBob Crawford, the name of the
podcast, his founding son, JohnQuincy's America. You can hear it on
Apple and iHeart Podcasts. Bob,thanks so much, Really enjoyed the conversation
with my pleasure. Thank you somuch. Ain't no man yeah save me.
There ain't no man ye slave me. No man man that can change

(24:52):
shit. My son is in there. Ain't nobody here who calls me and
payne to raise my fear calls.I got only life. The following is
from politico dot com. John QuincyAdams served as president from eighteen twenty five
to eighteen twenty nine. On Julyfourth, eighteen twenty six, which marked

(25:18):
the fiftieth anniversary of the adoption ofthe Declaration of Independence, John Adams and
Thomas Jefferson both died within hours ofeach other. Adams was ninety and Jefferson
was eighty three. Both while theyworked together to forge the successful American Revolution
and subsequently, as political rivals,they had helped shape the nation's early years.

(25:42):
Adams went on to serve a termas the second US President. Jefferson
followed him into the Executive Mansion withtwo terms. Jefferson had been asked to
prepare a speech for July fourth,eighteen twenty six, but ill health prevented
him from delivering it in person.Adams two was asked to help celebrate the
occasion in Washington, Philadelphia, andNew York. Likewise, illness prevented him

(26:07):
from traveling. He died at aboutfive o'clock in the afternoon on the fourth.
His last words were, Thomas Jeffersonsurvives. He was mistaken by about
five hours. A big thank youto our producer, Ken Carbury of Chart
Productions. What's on your mind?Send us your thoughts, comments and questions

(26:37):
to What's at Risk at gmail dotcom. That's one word, What's at
risk at gmail dot com. Thankyou. Expected to the party