December 14, 2024 • 27 mins
Hank Phillippi Ryan, Emmy-winning investigative reporter for Boston’s WHDH – TV and bestselling author of 15 novels of suspense, provides keen insights on her early television career, her unique and incredibly successful creative process, and her relentless pursuit of justice.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome back to What's at Risk. I'm Mike Christian Hank
Philip Ryan is the USA Today best selling author of
fifteen novels of suspense. She has also won multiple prestigious
awards for her crime fiction, including five Agathists, five Anthony's,
(00:25):
and the coveted Mary Higgins Clark Award. She's also the
on air investigative reporter for Boston's WHDHTV and has won
thirty seven Emmys, fourteen Edward R. Murrow Awards, and dozens
of other honors for her groundbreaking journalism. National book reviews
have called Hank a master at crafting suspenseful mysteries and
(00:46):
a superb and gifted storyteller. Her new book is One
Wrong Word, a twisty, NonStop story of gaslighting, manipulation, and murder.
Hank lives in Boston with her husband, a renowned criminal
defense and civil rights attorney. Our guest today is Hank
Philippy Ryan. Hank, thank you so much for joining us.
(01:07):
So for those very few of our listeners who might
not know who you are from your best selling books
and your HDH investigative reporting, can you tell us a
little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm now the USA Today best selling novelist, the author
of fifteen going on sixteen novels of suspense, and I
started writing sort of in midlife. It's interesting. I've been
a television reporter since nineteen seventy five, if you can imagine,
in Indianapolis and in Atlanta, and then in nineteen eighty three,
(01:37):
I set foot into Boston and knew this is where
I belonged. And I have been at Channel seven since
nineteen eighty three. It's amazing to tell you. So, I
have this sort of dual career as a crime fiction
author and a television and investigative reporter. And sometimes I
feel like I'm just the luckiest person in the world
to get to indulge both of those passions for journalists
(02:00):
and storytelling.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Nineteen seventy five, when were you sixteen or something?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, it was completely sixteen. I think I was twenty five,
if you really want to know. And I absolutely had
no idea what I was doing as a television reporter.
I am not quite sure how I got that job
as a reporter for TV. I had been working for
Rolling Stone Magazine in Washington, d C. And prior to that,
on Capitol Hill in Washington. D C for the Administrative
(02:24):
Practice and Procedure Subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and
we worked on the Freedom of Information Act, which is
fascinating too, because as a journalist later I began to
rely on the Freedom of Information Act for my investigative stories.
I was so new, and I was such a novice
that I went home for the first two weeks or
so just sobbing, thinking, you know, why am I doing this.
(02:47):
I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no
idea how to do a television story. I have no
idea what anybody's talking about. And then after about two weeks,
I realized, I love this. I love the discovery part.
I love the reporting part. I love the creation. I
love the presentation of making a little movie every day
that's going to educate and enlighten and illuminate and even entertain.
(03:12):
And I became just so passionate about television storytelling and
about digging and researching and investigating. Sometimes in life you
just turn a corner and open a door that you
never could have imagined and your whole life changes.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Well, that's a lesson in following your dreams and following
your passions, because you never know what's going to show
up once you do it right.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, that's a fascinating way to put it, because actually
my husband and I don't celebrate the anniversary of the
day we met. We celebrate the anniversary of the day
before we met, and we call that you never know
day because you never know what wonderful thing is around
the next corner. If you look at life that way,
every day is a surprise, and we're so lucky to
(03:54):
be alive. And we try to plan, and we try
to figure out, and we try to make sure that
everything goes exactly the way we plan for it to do,
and sometimes it just doesn't. And sometimes that's the best
thing that could possibly happen.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, for sure, the joys in the spontaneity.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Right, we hope absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
How do you pick the themes for your stories? And
I'll say your stories as an investigative reporter and as
a novelist, how does it come to you?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
You know, it's so interesting because, Mike, it's somewhat the
same and somewhat different. I read an interview with the
historian David McCullough once and he was asked whether he
chooses a theme for every book he writes, and he said, yes,
I do. I choose a theme for every book I write,
(04:39):
and I write the book to find out what it is.
And so it's interesting. And that's how I work too,
because I'll start my novels. Let's do novels first, and
then we'll go to TV. I start my novels. My
newest book is One Wrong Word, which is just out
in paperback that came out in hardcover earlier this year,
and the themes of One are empowerment and justice and
(05:04):
truth and how one wrong word can ruin your life.
Now as a journalist, as a reporter, think of all
the times that you too have seen spokespeople when something
tragic happens, or when something dangerous happens, and people come
out and speak to the cameras and speak to the
microphones and say everything is going to be fine. All
you don't worry. We've taken care of this. Those crisis
(05:26):
management experts that try to shepherd us into understanding a
story though the way they want us to understand it.
And I've always been fascinated by that, by how powerful
words are and how convincing people can be one way
or the other, and how truth and I know this
sounds odd, but it's fascinating how truth is created. And
(05:51):
that's what I was looking for in One Wrong Word.
It's a thriller, it's a murderer mystery, it's a vacation book,
it's an airplane book. You just can't put down one
wrong word. But the impetus for that book, just like
the impetus for my television stories, is justice and truth.
I mean, in real life, things don't always turn out
(06:11):
the way we like, as we were talking about, But
in a novel, I mean, in a television story, I
can only illustrate, illuminate what really happen, and point out
a problem and possibly suggest solutions, but at least open
the door to someone bringing justice, bringing a solution, making
a change, making a difference. That's what my whole life
has been, leaving the world a better place after my
(06:33):
television investigations. But in a novel, like one wrang Word,
in a thriller, one of the things about one of
the things that I'm going for is that in the end,
the good guys win and the bad guys get what's
coming to them, and you get some justice, and you
want to change the world a little bit, change the world.
For your readers, I want to stand up for the
(06:54):
little guy. I want people to be empowered. I want
to change the world. And that's, you know, what I've
wanted to do since I was fourteen, And that's what
I want to do in my investigative reporting, and that's
what I want to do in my novels, is to
allow the readers and viewers to look at the world
in a way they never did before. Now in my novels,
(07:17):
I want you to say at the end, wow, I
never saw that coming. What a twist, what a surprise,
you know, how entertaining. And in my television stories, I
want you to think, I'm glad somebody showed me revealed
that problem. I mean, I have thirty seven em Mes
for investigative reporting, and every single one of those Emmys
represents a secret that someone didn't want me to tell you.
(07:40):
And that's the essence of my thrillers too. And one
wrong word. Everybody has a secret. I need you, the
reader to guess what they are. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I love that one wrong word because I can think
back on my life. I'm sure everybody can, and just
think of a circumstance with one wrong word or one
wrong sentence and things go sideways sometimes for a long time.
It's a great theme.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yes, you can, thank you, you can, you can't see me,
you walk, I'm nodding. This is radio. I'm agreeing with
Mike every word that he says. Yes, absolutely, And that's
what that's the genesis of One wrong word was something
that happened to me, something that somewhere someone said something
about me that was just not true. And I think
as you say, and it changed my life totally. And
I think all of us exactly as you say. All
(08:23):
of us have had the situation where someone lies about
us or misleads someone about us for their own purposes.
And when it happened to me, when someone said something
really terrible about me, I was threatened with being fired
as a result of a lie. It didn't happen, but
I realized in that moment that my employers thought that
(08:44):
I was the expendable one. That experience from so long
ago is what was the genesis for crisis management expert
arden Ward. In one wrong word, someone tells a lie
about her and she is threatened with the loss of
her job, and she's given two weeks to get it back.
But when she realizes the way to get her job
(09:06):
back includes possibly using her skill as a crisis management
expert to protect a murderer. And so what will she
do in that dangerous dilemma because what she knows better
than anyone that one wrong word can ruin your life.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
You know what's interesting about the one wrong word scenario
is that, and you just pointed it out, is that
happens to someone and you remember for the rest of
your life it was like a life shifting event. Those
types of things which I find very interesting. You just
said sixty years ago, is that what you said exactly again?
Fifteen years old, right four?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
You've hit on a really interesting point. Is that one
of the things that makes a novel, a thriller like
I write, suspenseful is that something happens. I mean, I
know that sounds silly, but think about when we were
little and someone put us on their lap and said,
once upon a time, and we knew a story was coming,
and the walls would fall away and the world would vanish,
(10:07):
and we'd be captivated by the story about a character
who we cared about, with an important problem that needed
to be solved, and we were with them on this journey.
Of decision making and obstacles and ramifications and consequences and
ultimately we hope triumph. And that's what a story is.
(10:31):
And that's how you know, that's exactly how every one
of my novels begins. When someone's world, when they think
the world is going along just fine as they expect
and they're loving their life, something happens to yank them
into disequilibrium. Something happens, the rug gets pulled out from
under them, and the goal of the story, then my novels,
(10:51):
is to show how people get their power back when
your life is in a state of absolute upheaval.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, so fifteen books soon to be sixteen and you
really didn't start writing books until mid career, right, and
you're incredibly proficient. Now, what prompted that surge of creativity midlife?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Again? You never know what wonderful thing is around the
next corner, Right, I was at Channel seven. I mean
I was fifty five. I will tell you when I
started writing fiction and I was at Channel seven and Mike,
I just had a good idea. I don't even know
how to describe it in any other way. And I
know we've all had good ideas and when you have
a good idea, you know, that feeling of like, oh,
this is going to work. And I remember so profoundly,
(11:30):
I said, how hard can it be? You know, how
hard could it be? I've read a million books. Of course,
I soon discovered how hard it could be. Truly, I
was obsessed. I was compelled. I mean I worked every
moment that I was not at Channel seven. Don't tell
anyone on weekends at night. I took no vacation. I
had no idea how to write a novel, but I
did know how to tell a story. And I've been
(11:52):
telling a story as a reporter for thirty years prior
to that, and so I know beginning, middle, and an end.
I don't want you to be able to put my
book down. I want to have a character who you
care about. Of course, as we talked about in Sound Problem,
that's relatable and understandable and realistic, and they are all
set in Boston. Backing up a little bit so that
first novel. I finally finished that first novel, which was
(12:14):
Primetime called prime Time, my first book still in print,
sold and won the Agatha Award for Best First Mystery.
And that was the beginning of the second half. Of
my life and career. That was my first book, and
I'm still working on book sixteen right now, which I
should be doing this very minute because it's due in
two weeks. But all good. I'm sure it'll be fine.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
We'll talk fast for the rest of the interviews book.
So when do you come up with a theme for
a book? Do you create a storyboard or do you
just let it flow when you're writing. You must have
some personal style for creativity. How does it work?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yes, I think every author has their own personal style
for creativity, and I think that's a great way of
putting it. I would do anything if I had a storyboard,
if I had an outline, so love that, But I
just really don't. I have no idea what's going to
happen next until I write the next line or the
next scene. I just don't really know. It's one of
(13:10):
the things that's kind of a joy for me is
that it's a surprise. Every time I sit down at
the computer, I think I can't wait to find out
what's going to happen, and I realize that the only
way I can find out what's going to happen is
by writing it. You know, if I can't wait to
find out what's going to happen next. Okay, you know,
let's write it and find out. And I think that
a good story is an interesting, compelling, relatable person facing
(13:34):
a problem and having to make a series of decisions
and overcoming obstacles to get to their goal. I mean,
a good book is what does someone want and how
far will they go to get it? I have no
idea what the ending is. I don't know. Sometimes I
don't even know who's going to do All the time,
I don't know who's going to get killed. I don't
(13:54):
know who did it, and I don't know why, and
I don't know how bad guys will get discovered. And
I don't know. So some people say to me, wow,
the twisted turns in your stories and the surprise endings,
you really surprise me. And I say, yeah, wasn't that
a surprise? I mean, talk about a surprise ending. I
surprise myself every time. I surprise myself every day, And honestly,
(14:17):
that is the magic of writing. Sue Grafton used to
call that the magic that somehow our writer brains kick
into gear. And if we're lucky, if the muse is
with us, the stories just unfold. So forty years as
a reporter, I've wired myself with hidden cameras and confronted
(14:37):
corrupt politicians and chased down criminals and gone undercover and
in disguise. So my novels are not my life as
a reporter turned into fiction in one wrong word. For instance,
the main character is not a reporter. She's a crisis
management expert, sort of the other side of the microphone.
But all of my forty years of experience as a reporter,
(14:58):
certainly in so many ways, not just storytelling, has informed
my crime fiction writing. So it's just been a marvelous
training to write fiction by writing a new story essentially
every day.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
That's awesome. So it says, if you're reading the story
as you're writing it, you don't know what's going to.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Happen next, covering the story as I'm writing it, And
that is such a good point because the way I
know a book is finished, you know, after the final, final,
thousands of edits. The way I know a book is
finished is when I'm reading my own manuscript and I
forget that I wrote it, and I realize I'm just
(15:35):
reading this story, and every time kind of tears come
to my eyes as a result, because I wonder about
creativity and I wonder about how the writer brain works,
and how we can just make a story out of
nothing but our own imagination. How does that even work?
How can that even happen? It is It is a
(15:57):
mystery that I will never will It is the mystery
that I will never solve. It's always so amazing to me.
And let me just say, it's not easy. It's not
like I sit down at the computer and outcome of
the story and it's all fabulous. You know, there are
days when I think I have no idea what's going
to happen. I had no idea what who's going to
(16:19):
do what, or what decisions they're going to make. And
you know, because I'm writing crime fiction that has to
have a solution at some point, sometimes I worry that
I've created a crime that I can't solve. Let's just
see what evolves. Just keep going, just keep advancing the
story and something will emerge. And so far I'm knocking
(16:40):
on wood here. So far it has worked.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
A couple of part questions, So do you write every day?
And then do you ever with your style that you
just described of writing or it's just sort of flowing
as you write it. Do you, ever, after you finish
a novel look back at it and say, hmm, maybe
I could have done that a different way.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
So I write day when I'm in writing mode, when
I am getting when i'm writing that first draft. Yes,
I try to write every day, at least a thousand
words a day, because what I have to get finished,
I have a deadline. New York is waiting for it
by a certain day, and if I procrastinate, it's only
going to hurt me. And I'm pretty devoted to it.
You know, I love it, and so that's not a
problem for me to sit down in my computer and
(17:21):
write every day. And I know that some days what
I write is not going to be as good as
it is on other days, and I don't let that
stop me. I mean, some days I just think this
is the worst sentence that anyone has ever written, and
then I think, yep, yes it is. Now just write
another bad sentence, and another bad sentence, and another bad sentence.
Because to your point, Mike, I can fix it later.
(17:44):
I can fix it later. And that's one of the
joys of writing fiction. Writing a novel one hundred thousand
word novel as opposed to a three minute television story
that has to be on the air the same day.
I have a year, essentially to write this book, and
so I know that the book will be polished and
fixed and become what it is meant to be via
(18:05):
the editing process, not in the first draft process. So
the joy of my life is going back and fixing it.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
You have two series books recurring characters, Jane Ryland and
Charlotte McNally. How do you think about the development of
their characters as you go from book to book. They're
progressing in life, obviously, and how do you think about
moving their characters along or how are they changed by
circumstances that you've written in the books.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
That's a really great question, because they the main characters
in a series, become living, changing, growing creatures. My first
series of four books starred Charlotte McNally. She was a
television reporter in Boston who was worried that she was
getting too old for TV and wonders what happens to
someone who has is married to their job in television
(18:56):
when the camera doesn't love them anymore. So I scraped
the bottom that idea that series was four books, Primetime, FaceTime, Airtime,
and drive Time. And then I moved on to another series,
the Jane Ryland series Jane Ryland to tell a newspaper
reporter in Boston, and Jake Rogan is the other half
of that series, The Coolest Police Detective in Boston, and
(19:18):
there are five There are five books in that series,
and then I started writing standalones. So my books now
are standalones. They're not series. Their whole new worlds that
are created in each book. So my new book, One
Wrong Word is a standalone, not a series. Character. So
Jane Ryland and Charlotte McNally evolved just like we do
(19:42):
in real life. What you know, our personalities are set.
My characters are reporters and they're good guys. Charlie is
a reporter. Charlotte McNally Jane Ryland is a different kind
of reporter. They're both really good. They both face different
challenges in their life. Charlie McNally is forty six and
sort of pushing the age limit sadly in television. Jane
(20:05):
Ryland is in her thirties and obviously in a different
part of her life. Arden Ward in One Wrong Word
for whom there's only going to be one arden Ward book.
You know, she's in her thirties as well, very smart,
very successful, very sad. He lives in Boston, a crisis
management expert. So I try to give them their own
(20:25):
their personal story, which is very important in each novel.
Thinks that their challenge, their personal challenges as well as
their professional challenges in each story. So sometimes they make
the decisions themselves, and sometimes I make the decision. It's
about fifty to fifty. There was one book where I
had set it up perfectly that Charlie McNally was going
(20:47):
to shoot someone or hold someone at gunpoint. At the
end of a book. It turns out that Charlie is
a prodigy and she trained at the FBI Academy. And
even though she's sort of a reluctant shooter, you know,
it's I'm fiction, and it made sense in the novel
for her to have a gun. And it's too long
to tell, but I love this book. It's called Drive Time.
(21:08):
And at one point I had set this scene up
perfectly that Charlie McNally was in a general aviation hangar
and she had the gun because she had the FBI
agent's bag and all this cool stuff, and I'm typing
as best as I possibly can, and this incredibly exciting scene,
and there was the point where Charlie was going to
take out the gun and shoot someone, and I couldn't
(21:28):
write it, and I will tell you, and I hope
you don't think I've completely lost my mind. But I
saw Charlie in my head and she was saying, I'm
not going to shoot that guy, and I'm like, yes,
you are, because the book needs you to shoot him.
And she says, I am not going to shoot anybody.
She says, I'm a reporter, and I think for a living,
(21:49):
I don't shoot people. And I just sat here at
this very computer where I'm sitting right now, and I thought,
you know, she's right, Charlie would never shoot someone. And
I had to think of another way for her to
extricate herself from this dangerous situation. And the new way
was a million times better, just a million times better.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah. I've often heard great writers and music composers that
creativity say that same thing that you just said. I
don't know where it comes from. It just shows up.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yah.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Are you going to revisit Jane and Charlotte at any
point in the future.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Oh, you know, I like to think there. I'm under
contract to do at least one more Jane Ryland book.
When I started writing standalones, I sort of realized the
power of a standalone because in a series like the
Jane Ryland and Charlie McNally series, the reader knows that
the main character is not going to die because it's
(22:45):
a series, and they're going to come back for book
two and book three and book four. So the challenge
for the author is to create a situation that's so
high stakes and so relentlessly interesting that but it doesn't
all the mortality of the main character, because the reader
knows the main character is going to live to tell
(23:07):
another tale. So it's an interesting conundrum. It's an interesting challenge.
But in a standalone like One Wrong Word or My Brand,
knew all this could be yours. Anybody can live, and
anybody can die, and anybody can be good, and anybody
can be bad, and anybody can be lying. Anybody can
start out to be a good guy and turn into
a bad guy. And the reader knows that I, as
(23:29):
the author, have the supreme power in this book, and
that you the reader go into a standalone with absolutely
no expectations of what's going to happen. Because I can
do anything, I can completely pull the rug out from
under you. And that's what I try to do in
my novels. I want people at the end of my
books to say, I never saw that coming. I should
have seen that, I should have figured that out. But
(23:51):
a little bit of author's sleight of hand was going on,
and I was making you think one thing when it
was really something else. And the key to that is
it's not trickery. I'm not hiding everything any anything. Everything
is an absolutely plain sight. It's just that the that
the author learns to sort of do a little magic
(24:14):
with the writing and make lead the reader down the
primrose path one way when the really when the path
really twisted and you didn't realize that it was coming.
And that's really fun.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
One last question, Hack, and this has been a delightful
and insightful conversation. Thank you so much. But where does
that we had we talked about that theme of justice
in both your television reporting and your novels. Where does
that come from? Where's that drive for justice?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
You know, I it's hard to pin down. I know
that when I this is so silly, and who knows
if this is the reason. But when I was in
middle school, I was the most bookish, nerdy, little unpopular
girl you can ever possibly imagine, with no friends and
no dates and no parties. And when we have the
(25:00):
school superlatives, you know, best dressed and most likely to
succeed and most popular in those, I didn't get any
of those. I was voted most individual. And I've got
to tell you, at age fourteen, you do not want
to be most individual. You know, at age fourteen, you
just want to be like everybody else. And they put
my picture in the school paper upside down to show
(25:22):
how weird I was. I mean, most individual meant most misfit.
I knew that most unlike the rest of us, And
so that was really a difficult time for me. And
I remember being so upset about that, and my mother
told me, I mean, my mom took you know, comforted.
I was sad. I was crying. I was so upset
about this most individual, horrible thing. My mother comforted me,
(25:44):
as moms do if we're lucky. But afterwards she took
me aside and she said, listen, sweetheart, you're griping because
the world is not fair. You're saying the world is
not fair, and she says, You're just going to have
to get used to it. The world isn't fair and
you're just going to have to get used to it.
And I remember very clearly then at age fourteen, thinking, no,
(26:06):
I don't. I do not have to get used to it.
And when I grow up, I'm going to do something
that will leave a mark and leave a legacy and
have it matter. I'm going to stand up for the
little guys like they didn't stand up for me. I
don't know, but I have always felt that way. And again,
you know, the world turns out so gorgeously. As a
crime fiction author and as an investigative reporter, you know,
(26:29):
I'm allowed to pursue that goal in everything that I do.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Whatever the reason for that pursuit of justice. You've done
a lot of good because of having that drive. So Hank,
Philip Ryan, thank you so much for being with us.
It was really a pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Thank you for your wonderful and insightful questions.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Well that's all for this week. I'm Mike Christian inviting
you to join us again next week. On What at Risk.
Also check out our podcast at Wbznewsradio dot iHeart dot com.
What's on your Send us your thoughts, comments and questions
to What's at Risk at gmail dot com. That's one word,
(27:09):
What's at Risk at gmail dot com. Thank you. A
big thank you to our producer, Ken Carbury of Chart
Productions
Welcome back to What's at Risk. I'm Mike Christian Hank
Philip Ryan is the USA Today best selling author of
fifteen novels of suspense. She has also won multiple prestigious
awards for her crime fiction, including five Agathists, five Anthony's,
(00:25):
and the coveted Mary Higgins Clark Award. She's also the
on air investigative reporter for Boston's WHDHTV and has won
thirty seven Emmys, fourteen Edward R. Murrow Awards, and dozens
of other honors for her groundbreaking journalism. National book reviews
have called Hank a master at crafting suspenseful mysteries and
(00:46):
a superb and gifted storyteller. Her new book is One
Wrong Word, a twisty, NonStop story of gaslighting, manipulation, and murder.
Hank lives in Boston with her husband, a renowned criminal
defense and civil rights attorney. Our guest today is Hank
Philippy Ryan. Hank, thank you so much for joining us.
(01:07):
So for those very few of our listeners who might
not know who you are from your best selling books
and your HDH investigative reporting, can you tell us a
little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm now the USA Today best selling novelist, the author
of fifteen going on sixteen novels of suspense, and I
started writing sort of in midlife. It's interesting. I've been
a television reporter since nineteen seventy five, if you can imagine,
in Indianapolis and in Atlanta, and then in nineteen eighty three,
(01:37):
I set foot into Boston and knew this is where
I belonged. And I have been at Channel seven since
nineteen eighty three. It's amazing to tell you. So, I
have this sort of dual career as a crime fiction
author and a television and investigative reporter. And sometimes I
feel like I'm just the luckiest person in the world
to get to indulge both of those passions for journalists
(02:00):
and storytelling.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Nineteen seventy five, when were you sixteen or something?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, it was completely sixteen. I think I was twenty five,
if you really want to know. And I absolutely had
no idea what I was doing as a television reporter.
I am not quite sure how I got that job
as a reporter for TV. I had been working for
Rolling Stone Magazine in Washington, d C. And prior to that,
on Capitol Hill in Washington. D C for the Administrative
(02:24):
Practice and Procedure Subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and
we worked on the Freedom of Information Act, which is
fascinating too, because as a journalist later I began to
rely on the Freedom of Information Act for my investigative stories.
I was so new, and I was such a novice
that I went home for the first two weeks or
so just sobbing, thinking, you know, why am I doing this.
(02:47):
I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no
idea how to do a television story. I have no
idea what anybody's talking about. And then after about two weeks,
I realized, I love this. I love the discovery part.
I love the reporting part. I love the creation. I
love the presentation of making a little movie every day
that's going to educate and enlighten and illuminate and even entertain.
(03:12):
And I became just so passionate about television storytelling and
about digging and researching and investigating. Sometimes in life you
just turn a corner and open a door that you
never could have imagined and your whole life changes.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Well, that's a lesson in following your dreams and following
your passions, because you never know what's going to show
up once you do it right.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, that's a fascinating way to put it, because actually
my husband and I don't celebrate the anniversary of the
day we met. We celebrate the anniversary of the day
before we met, and we call that you never know
day because you never know what wonderful thing is around
the next corner. If you look at life that way,
every day is a surprise, and we're so lucky to
(03:54):
be alive. And we try to plan, and we try
to figure out, and we try to make sure that
everything goes exactly the way we plan for it to do,
and sometimes it just doesn't. And sometimes that's the best
thing that could possibly happen.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, for sure, the joys in the spontaneity.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Right, we hope absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
How do you pick the themes for your stories? And
I'll say your stories as an investigative reporter and as
a novelist, how does it come to you?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
You know, it's so interesting because, Mike, it's somewhat the
same and somewhat different. I read an interview with the
historian David McCullough once and he was asked whether he
chooses a theme for every book he writes, and he said, yes,
I do. I choose a theme for every book I write,
(04:39):
and I write the book to find out what it is.
And so it's interesting. And that's how I work too,
because I'll start my novels. Let's do novels first, and
then we'll go to TV. I start my novels. My
newest book is One Wrong Word, which is just out
in paperback that came out in hardcover earlier this year,
and the themes of One are empowerment and justice and
(05:04):
truth and how one wrong word can ruin your life.
Now as a journalist, as a reporter, think of all
the times that you too have seen spokespeople when something
tragic happens, or when something dangerous happens, and people come
out and speak to the cameras and speak to the
microphones and say everything is going to be fine. All
you don't worry. We've taken care of this. Those crisis
(05:26):
management experts that try to shepherd us into understanding a
story though the way they want us to understand it.
And I've always been fascinated by that, by how powerful
words are and how convincing people can be one way
or the other, and how truth and I know this
sounds odd, but it's fascinating how truth is created. And
(05:51):
that's what I was looking for in One Wrong Word.
It's a thriller, it's a murderer mystery, it's a vacation book,
it's an airplane book. You just can't put down one
wrong word. But the impetus for that book, just like
the impetus for my television stories, is justice and truth.
I mean, in real life, things don't always turn out
(06:11):
the way we like, as we were talking about, But
in a novel, I mean, in a television story, I
can only illustrate, illuminate what really happen, and point out
a problem and possibly suggest solutions, but at least open
the door to someone bringing justice, bringing a solution, making
a change, making a difference. That's what my whole life
has been, leaving the world a better place after my
(06:33):
television investigations. But in a novel, like one wrang Word,
in a thriller, one of the things about one of
the things that I'm going for is that in the end,
the good guys win and the bad guys get what's
coming to them, and you get some justice, and you
want to change the world a little bit, change the world.
For your readers, I want to stand up for the
(06:54):
little guy. I want people to be empowered. I want
to change the world. And that's, you know, what I've
wanted to do since I was fourteen, And that's what
I want to do in my investigative reporting, and that's
what I want to do in my novels, is to
allow the readers and viewers to look at the world
in a way they never did before. Now in my novels,
(07:17):
I want you to say at the end, wow, I
never saw that coming. What a twist, what a surprise,
you know, how entertaining. And in my television stories, I
want you to think, I'm glad somebody showed me revealed
that problem. I mean, I have thirty seven em Mes
for investigative reporting, and every single one of those Emmys
represents a secret that someone didn't want me to tell you.
(07:40):
And that's the essence of my thrillers too. And one
wrong word. Everybody has a secret. I need you, the
reader to guess what they are. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I love that one wrong word because I can think
back on my life. I'm sure everybody can, and just
think of a circumstance with one wrong word or one
wrong sentence and things go sideways sometimes for a long time.
It's a great theme.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yes, you can, thank you, you can, you can't see me,
you walk, I'm nodding. This is radio. I'm agreeing with
Mike every word that he says. Yes, absolutely, And that's
what that's the genesis of One wrong word was something
that happened to me, something that somewhere someone said something
about me that was just not true. And I think
as you say, and it changed my life totally. And
I think all of us exactly as you say. All
(08:23):
of us have had the situation where someone lies about
us or misleads someone about us for their own purposes.
And when it happened to me, when someone said something
really terrible about me, I was threatened with being fired
as a result of a lie. It didn't happen, but
I realized in that moment that my employers thought that
(08:44):
I was the expendable one. That experience from so long
ago is what was the genesis for crisis management expert
arden Ward. In one wrong word, someone tells a lie
about her and she is threatened with the loss of
her job, and she's given two weeks to get it back.
But when she realizes the way to get her job
(09:06):
back includes possibly using her skill as a crisis management
expert to protect a murderer. And so what will she
do in that dangerous dilemma because what she knows better
than anyone that one wrong word can ruin your life.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
You know what's interesting about the one wrong word scenario
is that, and you just pointed it out, is that
happens to someone and you remember for the rest of
your life it was like a life shifting event. Those
types of things which I find very interesting. You just
said sixty years ago, is that what you said exactly again?
Fifteen years old, right four?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
You've hit on a really interesting point. Is that one
of the things that makes a novel, a thriller like
I write, suspenseful is that something happens. I mean, I
know that sounds silly, but think about when we were
little and someone put us on their lap and said,
once upon a time, and we knew a story was coming,
and the walls would fall away and the world would vanish,
(10:07):
and we'd be captivated by the story about a character
who we cared about, with an important problem that needed
to be solved, and we were with them on this journey.
Of decision making and obstacles and ramifications and consequences and
ultimately we hope triumph. And that's what a story is.
(10:31):
And that's how you know, that's exactly how every one
of my novels begins. When someone's world, when they think
the world is going along just fine as they expect
and they're loving their life, something happens to yank them
into disequilibrium. Something happens, the rug gets pulled out from
under them, and the goal of the story, then my novels,
(10:51):
is to show how people get their power back when
your life is in a state of absolute upheaval.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, so fifteen books soon to be sixteen and you
really didn't start writing books until mid career, right, and
you're incredibly proficient. Now, what prompted that surge of creativity midlife?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Again? You never know what wonderful thing is around the
next corner, Right, I was at Channel seven. I mean
I was fifty five. I will tell you when I
started writing fiction and I was at Channel seven and Mike,
I just had a good idea. I don't even know
how to describe it in any other way. And I
know we've all had good ideas and when you have
a good idea, you know, that feeling of like, oh,
this is going to work. And I remember so profoundly,
(11:30):
I said, how hard can it be? You know, how
hard could it be? I've read a million books. Of course,
I soon discovered how hard it could be. Truly, I
was obsessed. I was compelled. I mean I worked every
moment that I was not at Channel seven. Don't tell
anyone on weekends at night. I took no vacation. I
had no idea how to write a novel, but I
did know how to tell a story. And I've been
(11:52):
telling a story as a reporter for thirty years prior
to that, and so I know beginning, middle, and an end.
I don't want you to be able to put my
book down. I want to have a character who you
care about. Of course, as we talked about in Sound Problem,
that's relatable and understandable and realistic, and they are all
set in Boston. Backing up a little bit so that
first novel. I finally finished that first novel, which was
(12:14):
Primetime called prime Time, my first book still in print,
sold and won the Agatha Award for Best First Mystery.
And that was the beginning of the second half. Of
my life and career. That was my first book, and
I'm still working on book sixteen right now, which I
should be doing this very minute because it's due in
two weeks. But all good. I'm sure it'll be fine.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
We'll talk fast for the rest of the interviews book.
So when do you come up with a theme for
a book? Do you create a storyboard or do you
just let it flow when you're writing. You must have
some personal style for creativity. How does it work?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yes, I think every author has their own personal style
for creativity, and I think that's a great way of
putting it. I would do anything if I had a storyboard,
if I had an outline, so love that, But I
just really don't. I have no idea what's going to
happen next until I write the next line or the
next scene. I just don't really know. It's one of
(13:10):
the things that's kind of a joy for me is
that it's a surprise. Every time I sit down at
the computer, I think I can't wait to find out
what's going to happen, and I realize that the only
way I can find out what's going to happen is
by writing it. You know, if I can't wait to
find out what's going to happen next. Okay, you know,
let's write it and find out. And I think that
a good story is an interesting, compelling, relatable person facing
(13:34):
a problem and having to make a series of decisions
and overcoming obstacles to get to their goal. I mean,
a good book is what does someone want and how
far will they go to get it? I have no
idea what the ending is. I don't know. Sometimes I
don't even know who's going to do All the time,
I don't know who's going to get killed. I don't
(13:54):
know who did it, and I don't know why, and
I don't know how bad guys will get discovered. And
I don't know. So some people say to me, wow,
the twisted turns in your stories and the surprise endings,
you really surprise me. And I say, yeah, wasn't that
a surprise? I mean, talk about a surprise ending. I
surprise myself every time. I surprise myself every day, And honestly,
(14:17):
that is the magic of writing. Sue Grafton used to
call that the magic that somehow our writer brains kick
into gear. And if we're lucky, if the muse is
with us, the stories just unfold. So forty years as
a reporter, I've wired myself with hidden cameras and confronted
(14:37):
corrupt politicians and chased down criminals and gone undercover and
in disguise. So my novels are not my life as
a reporter turned into fiction in one wrong word. For instance,
the main character is not a reporter. She's a crisis
management expert, sort of the other side of the microphone.
But all of my forty years of experience as a reporter,
(14:58):
certainly in so many ways, not just storytelling, has informed
my crime fiction writing. So it's just been a marvelous
training to write fiction by writing a new story essentially
every day.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
That's awesome. So it says, if you're reading the story
as you're writing it, you don't know what's going to.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Happen next, covering the story as I'm writing it, And
that is such a good point because the way I
know a book is finished, you know, after the final, final,
thousands of edits. The way I know a book is
finished is when I'm reading my own manuscript and I
forget that I wrote it, and I realize I'm just
(15:35):
reading this story, and every time kind of tears come
to my eyes as a result, because I wonder about
creativity and I wonder about how the writer brain works,
and how we can just make a story out of
nothing but our own imagination. How does that even work?
How can that even happen? It is It is a
(15:57):
mystery that I will never will It is the mystery
that I will never solve. It's always so amazing to me.
And let me just say, it's not easy. It's not
like I sit down at the computer and outcome of
the story and it's all fabulous. You know, there are
days when I think I have no idea what's going
to happen. I had no idea what who's going to
(16:19):
do what, or what decisions they're going to make. And
you know, because I'm writing crime fiction that has to
have a solution at some point, sometimes I worry that
I've created a crime that I can't solve. Let's just
see what evolves. Just keep going, just keep advancing the
story and something will emerge. And so far I'm knocking
(16:40):
on wood here. So far it has worked.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
A couple of part questions, So do you write every day?
And then do you ever with your style that you
just described of writing or it's just sort of flowing
as you write it. Do you, ever, after you finish
a novel look back at it and say, hmm, maybe
I could have done that a different way.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
So I write day when I'm in writing mode, when
I am getting when i'm writing that first draft. Yes,
I try to write every day, at least a thousand
words a day, because what I have to get finished,
I have a deadline. New York is waiting for it
by a certain day, and if I procrastinate, it's only
going to hurt me. And I'm pretty devoted to it.
You know, I love it, and so that's not a
problem for me to sit down in my computer and
(17:21):
write every day. And I know that some days what
I write is not going to be as good as
it is on other days, and I don't let that
stop me. I mean, some days I just think this
is the worst sentence that anyone has ever written, and
then I think, yep, yes it is. Now just write
another bad sentence, and another bad sentence, and another bad sentence.
Because to your point, Mike, I can fix it later.
(17:44):
I can fix it later. And that's one of the
joys of writing fiction. Writing a novel one hundred thousand
word novel as opposed to a three minute television story
that has to be on the air the same day.
I have a year, essentially to write this book, and
so I know that the book will be polished and
fixed and become what it is meant to be via
(18:05):
the editing process, not in the first draft process. So
the joy of my life is going back and fixing it.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
You have two series books recurring characters, Jane Ryland and
Charlotte McNally. How do you think about the development of
their characters as you go from book to book. They're
progressing in life, obviously, and how do you think about
moving their characters along or how are they changed by
circumstances that you've written in the books.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
That's a really great question, because they the main characters
in a series, become living, changing, growing creatures. My first
series of four books starred Charlotte McNally. She was a
television reporter in Boston who was worried that she was
getting too old for TV and wonders what happens to
someone who has is married to their job in television
(18:56):
when the camera doesn't love them anymore. So I scraped
the bottom that idea that series was four books, Primetime, FaceTime, Airtime,
and drive Time. And then I moved on to another series,
the Jane Ryland series Jane Ryland to tell a newspaper
reporter in Boston, and Jake Rogan is the other half
of that series, The Coolest Police Detective in Boston, and
(19:18):
there are five There are five books in that series,
and then I started writing standalones. So my books now
are standalones. They're not series. Their whole new worlds that
are created in each book. So my new book, One
Wrong Word is a standalone, not a series. Character. So
Jane Ryland and Charlotte McNally evolved just like we do
(19:42):
in real life. What you know, our personalities are set.
My characters are reporters and they're good guys. Charlie is
a reporter. Charlotte McNally Jane Ryland is a different kind
of reporter. They're both really good. They both face different
challenges in their life. Charlie McNally is forty six and
sort of pushing the age limit sadly in television. Jane
(20:05):
Ryland is in her thirties and obviously in a different
part of her life. Arden Ward in One Wrong Word
for whom there's only going to be one arden Ward book.
You know, she's in her thirties as well, very smart,
very successful, very sad. He lives in Boston, a crisis
management expert. So I try to give them their own
(20:25):
their personal story, which is very important in each novel.
Thinks that their challenge, their personal challenges as well as
their professional challenges in each story. So sometimes they make
the decisions themselves, and sometimes I make the decision. It's
about fifty to fifty. There was one book where I
had set it up perfectly that Charlie McNally was going
(20:47):
to shoot someone or hold someone at gunpoint. At the
end of a book. It turns out that Charlie is
a prodigy and she trained at the FBI Academy. And
even though she's sort of a reluctant shooter, you know,
it's I'm fiction, and it made sense in the novel
for her to have a gun. And it's too long
to tell, but I love this book. It's called Drive Time.
(21:08):
And at one point I had set this scene up
perfectly that Charlie McNally was in a general aviation hangar
and she had the gun because she had the FBI
agent's bag and all this cool stuff, and I'm typing
as best as I possibly can, and this incredibly exciting scene,
and there was the point where Charlie was going to
take out the gun and shoot someone, and I couldn't
(21:28):
write it, and I will tell you, and I hope
you don't think I've completely lost my mind. But I
saw Charlie in my head and she was saying, I'm
not going to shoot that guy, and I'm like, yes,
you are, because the book needs you to shoot him.
And she says, I am not going to shoot anybody.
She says, I'm a reporter, and I think for a living,
(21:49):
I don't shoot people. And I just sat here at
this very computer where I'm sitting right now, and I thought,
you know, she's right, Charlie would never shoot someone. And
I had to think of another way for her to
extricate herself from this dangerous situation. And the new way
was a million times better, just a million times better.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah. I've often heard great writers and music composers that
creativity say that same thing that you just said. I
don't know where it comes from. It just shows up.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yah.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Are you going to revisit Jane and Charlotte at any
point in the future.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Oh, you know, I like to think there. I'm under
contract to do at least one more Jane Ryland book.
When I started writing standalones, I sort of realized the
power of a standalone because in a series like the
Jane Ryland and Charlie McNally series, the reader knows that
the main character is not going to die because it's
(22:45):
a series, and they're going to come back for book
two and book three and book four. So the challenge
for the author is to create a situation that's so
high stakes and so relentlessly interesting that but it doesn't
all the mortality of the main character, because the reader
knows the main character is going to live to tell
(23:07):
another tale. So it's an interesting conundrum. It's an interesting challenge.
But in a standalone like One Wrong Word or My Brand,
knew all this could be yours. Anybody can live, and
anybody can die, and anybody can be good, and anybody
can be bad, and anybody can be lying. Anybody can
start out to be a good guy and turn into
a bad guy. And the reader knows that I, as
(23:29):
the author, have the supreme power in this book, and
that you the reader go into a standalone with absolutely
no expectations of what's going to happen. Because I can
do anything, I can completely pull the rug out from
under you. And that's what I try to do in
my novels. I want people at the end of my
books to say, I never saw that coming. I should
have seen that, I should have figured that out. But
(23:51):
a little bit of author's sleight of hand was going on,
and I was making you think one thing when it
was really something else. And the key to that is
it's not trickery. I'm not hiding everything any anything. Everything
is an absolutely plain sight. It's just that the that
the author learns to sort of do a little magic
(24:14):
with the writing and make lead the reader down the
primrose path one way when the really when the path
really twisted and you didn't realize that it was coming.
And that's really fun.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
One last question, Hack, and this has been a delightful
and insightful conversation. Thank you so much. But where does
that we had we talked about that theme of justice
in both your television reporting and your novels. Where does
that come from? Where's that drive for justice?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
You know, I it's hard to pin down. I know
that when I this is so silly, and who knows
if this is the reason. But when I was in
middle school, I was the most bookish, nerdy, little unpopular
girl you can ever possibly imagine, with no friends and
no dates and no parties. And when we have the
(25:00):
school superlatives, you know, best dressed and most likely to
succeed and most popular in those, I didn't get any
of those. I was voted most individual. And I've got
to tell you, at age fourteen, you do not want
to be most individual. You know, at age fourteen, you
just want to be like everybody else. And they put
my picture in the school paper upside down to show
(25:22):
how weird I was. I mean, most individual meant most misfit.
I knew that most unlike the rest of us, And
so that was really a difficult time for me. And
I remember being so upset about that, and my mother
told me, I mean, my mom took you know, comforted.
I was sad. I was crying. I was so upset
about this most individual, horrible thing. My mother comforted me,
(25:44):
as moms do if we're lucky. But afterwards she took
me aside and she said, listen, sweetheart, you're griping because
the world is not fair. You're saying the world is
not fair, and she says, You're just going to have
to get used to it. The world isn't fair and
you're just going to have to get used to it.
And I remember very clearly then at age fourteen, thinking, no,
(26:06):
I don't. I do not have to get used to it.
And when I grow up, I'm going to do something
that will leave a mark and leave a legacy and
have it matter. I'm going to stand up for the
little guys like they didn't stand up for me. I
don't know, but I have always felt that way. And again,
you know, the world turns out so gorgeously. As a
crime fiction author and as an investigative reporter, you know,
(26:29):
I'm allowed to pursue that goal in everything that I do.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Whatever the reason for that pursuit of justice. You've done
a lot of good because of having that drive. So Hank,
Philip Ryan, thank you so much for being with us.
It was really a pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Thank you for your wonderful and insightful questions.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Well that's all for this week. I'm Mike Christian inviting
you to join us again next week. On What at Risk.
Also check out our podcast at Wbznewsradio dot iHeart dot com.
What's on your Send us your thoughts, comments and questions
to What's at Risk at gmail dot com. That's one word,
(27:09):
What's at Risk at gmail dot com. Thank you. A
big thank you to our producer, Ken Carbury of Chart
Productions
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com