Pamela McElvane, the CEO and founder of P&L Group, Ltd, Author of "The SkiNy on Diversity Recruiting
October 19, 2024 • 24 mins
Pamela McElvane, the CEO and founder of P&L Group, Ltd and author of "The SkiNy on Diversity Recruiting,”provides invaluable insights and strategies for businesses aiming to enhance their recruitment practices with a focus on diversity and inclusion.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is What's at Risk with Mike Christian on WBZ,
Boston's news radio. Hi, Mike Christian, here of What's at Risk.
First up on tonight show, we speak with Pamela macklbain,
the CEO and founder of P and L Group and
the author of The Skinny on Diversity Recruiting. Pam provides
(00:26):
invaluable insights and strategies for businesses aiming to enhance their
recruitment practices with a focus on diversity and inclusion. And
in our second segment, we welcome Casey Soward, the executive
director of the Cabot Performing Arts Theater in Beverly, Massachusetts,
and the incoming CEO of the Box Center in Boston.
(00:50):
Casey talks about the performing arts industry in today's changing
world and offers some creative ideas for future opportunities at
the Wang and Schubert Theater. Pamela mcelvain is the CEO
and founder of P and L Group and the author
of The Skinny on Diversity Recruiting. She has spent more
than twenty five years working with large and mid sized companies,
(01:14):
providing insights and best practices leadership, executive coaching, strategy, and
organizational management. Pam hosts a weekly talk show, The Inclusive Voice,
on WCPT in Chicago. She serves as an expert panelist
for Global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Center. She's a media expert,
(01:36):
is published in numerous publications has received many honors for
her work. She is also a certified Master coach, providing
board development and executive legacy coaching. Our guest is Pam
mcelvain and she's the author of The Skinny on Diversity Recruiting,
(01:59):
The best Practice Guide to current Trends on recruiting strategies. Pam,
how you doing.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I'm well, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Thank you for joining us. Maybe maybe a good place
to start is you just give our listeners a little
bit about your background.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Oh, thank you so much. Actually, i was born in Stockton, California,
but I'm now reigning from Chicago, Illinois. So I've been
an entrepreneur for about twenty eight years. I've spent twenty
plus years prior to that in corporate America running property
and casualty insurance companies, and so I've had a long
(02:34):
history of working with people, managing people. I enjoy sports.
I was an athlete at college and I have three boys.
One my youngest is at University Chicago and he'll be
graduating this year, and so, you know, being a mom
and enjoying it and enjoying life. We talked about community
(02:55):
service and social impact EPI served on more than forty
boards in my career, so anything from regional, national, to
paid on private boards. So it's a little bit about
me in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Thank you. Forty boards. That's a lot of boards.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
It's a lot of boards. Starting yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
A full time job. We're going to talk about recruiting,
but I thought maybe i'd start with I've noticed in
the news recently unemployees on the rise a bit. Jobs
are a little harder to get for recent college grads. Particularly.
What's the current state of recruiting in general? Before we
talk about diversity.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
You know, that's a great question when you think about it,
and when people think about they look at the numbers
in the job market, the employment rate in what department
of labor is sharing. It usually includes the entire workforce,
but corporations are cyclical in nature and in terms of
you know, where they look for their workforce, you know,
(03:55):
on their front line type of jobs. So if you
think about a Walmart, you know, tellers, distributors, and looking
at first connected workers, there's a lot of opportunities. And
then you look at you know, right out of college,
companies are more focused now, so the numbers college students
are having I would say a harder time is just
(04:18):
not there. They're having to do a little more work
than they normally have had in the past in terms
of looking for jobs. And then your middle of the group,
the mid level, you're talking about your professionals, I would
say that's where the largest gap exist and the greatest
opportunities are. So part of the challenge. I think what's
(04:38):
happening today is because we still they are still looking
for folks with very specific skills. So you have hundreds
and thousands of jobs available in technology and AI very
very specific skill sets. And then on the professional services side,
and then just your general side, they're more much more
highly competitive, and then of course your leadership grows. You know,
(05:00):
those opportunities are always tight and hard to come by,
but so overall the recruiting, you know, there's opportunities just
depends on where you're.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Targeting, right, That makes sense Now, in writing the book,
you developed a survey of I think over two hundred
and seventy questions to assess the processes, practices, methods, and
metrics of companies and to just put the data together
for the book. What were some of the insights that
you gained from those analytics?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
We've actually we did the survey on an annual basis
and with that, over four hundred companies participated and contributing
to their best practices every year. We're learning and we're
learning what needs to happen and what companies can do better.
So we really found that which I hadn't really I
didn't really know, but I would say about maybe five
(05:52):
years ago, ninety percent of recruiters or ninety percent white
Americans and eighty percent of that were white women men,
And today now it's more like sixty five percent white
Americans and maybe around sixty percent women. So you're seeing
more diversification on the front lines and that's really important.
(06:15):
So that was something the mix that we hadn't looked
at before. Generationally, we're seeing that companies are looking to
have more gen zs in their recruiting processes as well.
Of course, AI still we see that it's it's slowly
trending only about sixty percent of our companies in the
(06:37):
index use actually AI to help them with sourcing. And
because some of the challenges around some biases, so to
use AI, organizations have to customize it. So in the
recruiting trends, we found that when organizations I would say
to you, maybe some of the biggest AHAs or that
(06:57):
when companies talk about, oh, we're we're fifty percent, you know,
a diverse with women and people of color, well that
might be in their support ranks, you know, but not
in leadership. And we're finding that's across some industries you know,
are tougher than others, but it's across the marketplace. For
(07:18):
women average about thirty percent in leadership. The majority of
that thirty percent about fifty five percent or white women
and then people of color. So my advice to companies
pretty much is, you know, be realistic in setting the
goals and work on the retention side. So if you
retain the talent and then go out and hire the
(07:41):
new talent, you hopefully can build the diversity within your
leadership ranks over time.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Now, there have been a lot of recent cuts in diversity,
equity and inclusion programs with companies for a variety of reasons,
some legal, some political. How has that impacted diversity recruiting
over the last six to twelve months.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, that's a great question, and I'd love to clarify
the absolutely truth when you say recent cuts. However, it's cyclical,
so it happens every you know, four or five years.
Companies do these cuts and then when they're looking at
most of the time, ninety eight percent of the companies
have a diversity equity inclusion sitting under their HR the
(08:27):
Human resource organization, so that's usually the first organization they
tend to cut, and they tend to reduce the diversity office.
So that's not new. That's just been given a lot
more media, a lot, you know, a lot more heightened
awareness around it. But to your point, I'm just going
(08:48):
to be candid with you, if I may. I think
organizations that truly don't have a real strategy and investment
found a way to get off to kind of get
off the hook and and be able to go ahead
and just do what they always done, and they're no
longer motivated by the environment, you know, by society or
(09:10):
the community. So they just said, oh, well, you know,
we weren't doing this at any deep level anyway. So
that's that's the big group that you've seen really a change.
Those organizations, those companies that made big investments, they're still
there and they're making decisions. To be honest with you, Mike,
they're making decisions as it relates to profitability like any
(09:33):
other organization, are we going to hire or not? You know,
where do we need to reduce you know, spend and expenses.
And they look at the function like any other. So
that's that's the reality of it. Now have people have
to reframe some of their conversation yet around DEI they have,
(09:53):
and I would say that they needed to because if
there's any group that doesn't feel included, then that means
you need to clarify your narrative so that no one
feels excluded when you're talking about diversity, equity inclusion. So
that's been a big AHA moment for employers to talk
about to be employers of choice and to be forefront
(10:15):
of the recruiting. They're saying, this is what we're doing
to continue to commit and be socially impactful as well
as conscious defining that we are still committed to the
workforce right now.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
You alluded to a good point about diversity. We're not
just referring to racial diversity. When we talk about diversity,
we're talking about veterans, person's living with disabilities, LGBTQ, community
plus plus plus, many many different areas of people that
have been underestimated or not, you know, not necessarily included
(10:50):
in the mainstream. What do you think employers are missing
out on when they don't consider or they look past
these groups for employment.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I think the richness of the potential of new consumers
and what they have and when people may not And
you just talked about the big the big nuggets of
divers there's sixty four dimensions of diversity. I mean, this
is one of the theological wills that talk about all
the different ways. So when you don't have folks that
are that have different experiences, different cultures, different educational backgrounds,
(11:23):
different geographies, different you know, at the table, then innovation
doesn't occur. And we know with diversity around the table
increases the tensions for innovation and creativity, and then it
allows for more engagement from your workforce. And any time
a workforce stops learning, you miss the opportunities for growth.
(11:44):
And at the end of the day, I say that.
This is what I tell people. The folks in your
workforce are the folks in the community there are, and
they are your consumers. So so the more you engage
your workforce with diverse because people are going to be
among them for the most part, you know, the better
you are. If you look at disabilities, you will speak
(12:06):
specifically to disabilities. The largest population in the world, and
thirty five percent of the US right now, there's only
nineteen percent based on the US Census, a person with
disability in the workforce. I bet that companies, on average,
they report an average about three to five percent that
(12:27):
identifying the workforce. I wouldn't be surprised if they have
as high as ten percent. So they have a huge
opportunity where they could, you know, create more of a
trusted environment because this group, you know, they purchase, they
buy their consumers as well, and at some point we
all live long enough, we might become part of it. Yeah.
(12:49):
And then of course you know the veterans. The veterans
themselves are huge, and it's including the LGBTQ plus non
binary community, huge young generations that you can reach out
to to help in terms of education. So I could
just go on and on in terms of the business
opportunities that companies are missing if they don't lean into
the full meaning of diversity.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
And I think that's been validated by studies. Mackenzie I
think did a well known study that corporations that are
more diverse are more successful on every level, not just
in societal levels. But they're more profitable.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
They absolutely are. And companies know that themselves. They look
at their dynamics and their workforce and they see so
they know that, you know, the Walmarts, and sometimes they
have to be pushed forward to do better. But go
back forty years ago, Coca Cola and PEPSI were doing
it before it was even you know, prevalent to do.
(13:47):
They were marketing and ensuring that diverse because it goes
to diversity of taste within markets, and it's within the
United States. People forget that we are a melting pot
of so the cultures. We don't have to go outside
our country.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, for sure. What role do you think training plays
in more effective recruiting and diversity recruiting things like you know,
training on structural racism or unconscious biased those types of things.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I think training absolutely has a role in terms of
creating awareness and education. And then once you provide that
you have to have a next level, there's got to
be another phase to once you get the information to
practice it. If you're going to actually expect some level
of execution, some level of change, people have to you know,
(14:39):
want you learn. And the difference between unconscious bias and
anti racism. Anti racism is really trying to help you
educate historical, structural, ancestorial knowledge and systems that were in
place previously so that you can be aware of them
and recognize any stereotypes or any particular insights that you
(15:01):
and me have that be based on your experience, just
so that you can be very well educated from that perspective.
And then unconscious bias again is another awareness to that
you know where your biases are. We all have inherent biases.
But then you begin to recognize the bias that you
have and it's up to use up to the individual
to say, Okay, I am now aware, I'm now educated.
(15:24):
What can I do to make some of these changes
so that I can be more engaging, more inclusive, more patient,
more respectful. And then so I do honestly believe that
the expanded training within the organization is very important. Now
it's critical that they measure it, the effectiveness of it.
It's critical that they ensure they have highly competent people
(15:47):
that are doing the training. You don't have a person
that's very biased doing bias training, you know, and you
know and because companies don't.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, and I can confirm that just on a personal level,
I had gone through various types of training, unconscious bi
us in particular, and it's amazing if you grow up
in a particular way, what you don't know, you don't know,
you know, and just getting the training is like wow,
I never really thought of that perspective, and it does
help dramatically. It's not like concepts that are ungraspable. You
(16:18):
can figure it out and understand it. And I think
with the additional information it does help everyone.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
It's not like it's trying to change your decision, right.
It should be where you are, just like any any
upskilling getting new information so that you don't have to
change your opinion about anything. You just have awareness. And
that's that's really what's important. I think when people are
looking at training, and to be honest with you, just
(16:47):
to add training. In terms of the recruiting, the book
and the research, we saw that recruiters also get another
level of training outside of just the organizational training. So
they're looking at you know, legal retraining for peoples with disabilities,
the state requirements for a da PTS, you know for veterans,
(17:08):
and all of this other kind of mental wellness that
you know, These these recruiters who don't make hiring decisions,
they just go out and source the talent and present
it to companies, I mean to the hiring managers, which
is the greatest opportunity we have, and that's the largest
group that needs that needs the training of what you
(17:29):
just talked about, anti racism and unconscious biases.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Now, I'm sure culture and leadership play a big role
in all of this right across the spectrum. Do you
think diversity recruiting should be included in leadership performance metrics
and reviews?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Mike, I don't know if you were read that New
York Times article that he did. Another great question. So
because we talked, we did a story on that. So
I mean the reality is I mean, yes, I do,
and I do think it should be expanded to include
persons with disabilities and to include veterans, and I wish
(18:07):
it was a safer place where people the LGBTQIA plus
non binary community could identify in the recruiting process. I
wish it were expanded to those identity groups, but it's
not yet. So to say that, you know, diverse slates
is a mechanism where it's a platform or organizations. In
(18:29):
our research, eighty five percent of the company said, yes,
we use diverse slates primarily in the management leadership roles.
But that's just a provide access for people that normally
wouldn't have the opportunity to compete for roles. Has nothing
to do with not being underqualified you have to do.
It's just broadening the slate, that's all it's doing. It's
(18:50):
just broadening the slave. So I think you have to
have an intentional strategy on diversity recruiting. I believe incentives
should be there for everybody.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Think the future. I mean a lot of this has
to do with diversity, equity and inclusion programs and focus
on it and culture and companies and leadership. And we
have had some bumps with d E and I programs.
And you mentioned that this just ebbs and flows, and
it's part of normal course of business. But there have
been some meaningful bumps over the last couple of years
(19:22):
with THEE and I programs. How do you see the
future there?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
So again another a great question. So when you think
about so first to just talk about D diversity, equity,
inclusion as part of the culture, it should be a
strategic pillar helping integrate the processes and practices to ensure
that there's equity and inclusion and differences of respective differences
(19:48):
within your environment. So that's that's what it is. DEI
programs and initiatives are like any other cultural programs to
help organizations with engagement. And so it could be anything,
not even not even under the DEI umbrella, that just
happens to be part of it. So a professor shared
with me. I have the opportunity to go to a
(20:08):
summit at the PhD Project and one of the professors
was talking about how I asked her a question about
the this is vary same questions. So I'm gonna share
with you her answer because I agree with it. Talked
about how affirmative action was intended, legislation was intended to
be in place to help accelerate talent and then it
(20:30):
no longer is there. But what it did was put
was put in place in organizations, practices and policies that
are there. That's far beyond affirmative action. And that's what
I believe. I DEI acronyms go away. The actual work
and the systemic processes and procedures that have been institutionalized
within the within companies will continue to develop, and it'll
(20:55):
be you know, stronger in some organizations, more penetrated, and
some and not so much enough, depending on where they are.
But I believe the future of it is that the
practices that are meaningful and that are required and important
to be there and in place will be there, and
then over time they will become more and more institutionalized
across corporate America and not just you know, as it
(21:19):
is in governments. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Oh, that's that's the ideal. Right, It gets embedded in
the way companies do business, and it's part of the
culture and you don't have to really think about DEE
and I programs anymore because they're just part of the
way you do it.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, And I think we may always have to think
about that because we're ever changing.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
So one last question. Most of this discussion has been
about advice to employers. What kind of advice would you
give to prospective employees and employee and current employees.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Okay, so that's a great question. I think that when
you're looking at a position, you're seeing an opportunity you
want to imply for it's upon you your responsibility as
a prospective employee to see what those with your perspective
employer has done around their commitment to social responsibility. Whatever
(22:11):
your values are, look on their website, look what's publicly
out there, and then be prepared to ask those questions
in the interview to ensure your values are aligned with
that organization. Because seventy percent of your time is spent
in that workplace. And then when you're inside the I
will also say this to folks, feel free to ask
(22:33):
if you can ask questions, ask the recruiters some questions,
and feel free to ask some tough questions as you
move through the interview process. And then for folks that
are inside organizations, it is your responsibility to give one
hundred percent of your time and is their responsibility to
provide you psychological safety and physical trust one hundred percent
(22:58):
of the time. So you have the right to ask
questions to ensure that your wellbeing is protected. That you
you know, what are we doing to come back? You
know these issues that we're hearing. What are my opportunities
with your managers? I want to know what I need
to do for the next opportunity. You have to own
(23:21):
your advancement and your development. You can't expect someone to
tap in. Those days are gone, to tep you on
the shoulder and say, okay, let's go in. They're still
doing that for a small group of people, probably less
than two percent, so that means the rest of the
iy percent. You have to have those proactive conversations with
your managers and then one up and then the manager's manager.
(23:46):
And you have to be bold enough. And I'll say
this to women, might be bold enough just because men
don't have as much of an issue challenge as women do.
Be bold enough to ask for that next opportunity, to
be in a competitle, to be competitive in the next
position that you have your eye on, and not be
(24:07):
afraid of it, and to boast about what you do. Well,
there's a way to say, I am an expert at this,
how can I help?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
That is great advice. We've been talking to Pam mclbain,
the author of the skinny on diversity recruiting, Pam, thanks
so much, a lot of great insights. Really much appreciate
enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Thank you so much, Mike, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
We'll be right back after the news at the bottom
of the hour
This is What's at Risk with Mike Christian on WBZ,
Boston's news radio. Hi, Mike Christian, here of What's at Risk.
First up on tonight show, we speak with Pamela macklbain,
the CEO and founder of P and L Group and
the author of The Skinny on Diversity Recruiting. Pam provides
(00:26):
invaluable insights and strategies for businesses aiming to enhance their
recruitment practices with a focus on diversity and inclusion. And
in our second segment, we welcome Casey Soward, the executive
director of the Cabot Performing Arts Theater in Beverly, Massachusetts,
and the incoming CEO of the Box Center in Boston.
(00:50):
Casey talks about the performing arts industry in today's changing
world and offers some creative ideas for future opportunities at
the Wang and Schubert Theater. Pamela mcelvain is the CEO
and founder of P and L Group and the author
of The Skinny on Diversity Recruiting. She has spent more
than twenty five years working with large and mid sized companies,
(01:14):
providing insights and best practices leadership, executive coaching, strategy, and
organizational management. Pam hosts a weekly talk show, The Inclusive Voice,
on WCPT in Chicago. She serves as an expert panelist
for Global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Center. She's a media expert,
(01:36):
is published in numerous publications has received many honors for
her work. She is also a certified Master coach, providing
board development and executive legacy coaching. Our guest is Pam
mcelvain and she's the author of The Skinny on Diversity Recruiting,
(01:59):
The best Practice Guide to current Trends on recruiting strategies. Pam,
how you doing.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I'm well, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Thank you for joining us. Maybe maybe a good place
to start is you just give our listeners a little
bit about your background.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Oh, thank you so much. Actually, i was born in Stockton, California,
but I'm now reigning from Chicago, Illinois. So I've been
an entrepreneur for about twenty eight years. I've spent twenty
plus years prior to that in corporate America running property
and casualty insurance companies, and so I've had a long
(02:34):
history of working with people, managing people. I enjoy sports.
I was an athlete at college and I have three boys.
One my youngest is at University Chicago and he'll be
graduating this year, and so, you know, being a mom
and enjoying it and enjoying life. We talked about community
(02:55):
service and social impact EPI served on more than forty
boards in my career, so anything from regional, national, to
paid on private boards. So it's a little bit about
me in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Thank you. Forty boards. That's a lot of boards.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
It's a lot of boards. Starting yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
A full time job. We're going to talk about recruiting,
but I thought maybe i'd start with I've noticed in
the news recently unemployees on the rise a bit. Jobs
are a little harder to get for recent college grads. Particularly.
What's the current state of recruiting in general? Before we
talk about diversity.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
You know, that's a great question when you think about it,
and when people think about they look at the numbers
in the job market, the employment rate in what department
of labor is sharing. It usually includes the entire workforce,
but corporations are cyclical in nature and in terms of
you know, where they look for their workforce, you know,
(03:55):
on their front line type of jobs. So if you
think about a Walmart, you know, tellers, distributors, and looking
at first connected workers, there's a lot of opportunities. And
then you look at you know, right out of college,
companies are more focused now, so the numbers college students
are having I would say a harder time is just
(04:18):
not there. They're having to do a little more work
than they normally have had in the past in terms
of looking for jobs. And then your middle of the group,
the mid level, you're talking about your professionals, I would
say that's where the largest gap exist and the greatest
opportunities are. So part of the challenge. I think what's
(04:38):
happening today is because we still they are still looking
for folks with very specific skills. So you have hundreds
and thousands of jobs available in technology and AI very
very specific skill sets. And then on the professional services side,
and then just your general side, they're more much more
highly competitive, and then of course your leadership grows. You know,
(05:00):
those opportunities are always tight and hard to come by,
but so overall the recruiting, you know, there's opportunities just
depends on where you're.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Targeting, right, That makes sense Now, in writing the book,
you developed a survey of I think over two hundred
and seventy questions to assess the processes, practices, methods, and
metrics of companies and to just put the data together
for the book. What were some of the insights that
you gained from those analytics?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
We've actually we did the survey on an annual basis
and with that, over four hundred companies participated and contributing
to their best practices every year. We're learning and we're
learning what needs to happen and what companies can do better.
So we really found that which I hadn't really I
didn't really know, but I would say about maybe five
(05:52):
years ago, ninety percent of recruiters or ninety percent white
Americans and eighty percent of that were white women men,
And today now it's more like sixty five percent white
Americans and maybe around sixty percent women. So you're seeing
more diversification on the front lines and that's really important.
(06:15):
So that was something the mix that we hadn't looked
at before. Generationally, we're seeing that companies are looking to
have more gen zs in their recruiting processes as well.
Of course, AI still we see that it's it's slowly
trending only about sixty percent of our companies in the
(06:37):
index use actually AI to help them with sourcing. And
because some of the challenges around some biases, so to
use AI, organizations have to customize it. So in the
recruiting trends, we found that when organizations I would say
to you, maybe some of the biggest AHAs or that
(06:57):
when companies talk about, oh, we're we're fifty percent, you know,
a diverse with women and people of color, well that
might be in their support ranks, you know, but not
in leadership. And we're finding that's across some industries you know,
are tougher than others, but it's across the marketplace. For
(07:18):
women average about thirty percent in leadership. The majority of
that thirty percent about fifty five percent or white women
and then people of color. So my advice to companies
pretty much is, you know, be realistic in setting the
goals and work on the retention side. So if you
retain the talent and then go out and hire the
(07:41):
new talent, you hopefully can build the diversity within your
leadership ranks over time.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Now, there have been a lot of recent cuts in diversity,
equity and inclusion programs with companies for a variety of reasons,
some legal, some political. How has that impacted diversity recruiting
over the last six to twelve months.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, that's a great question, and I'd love to clarify
the absolutely truth when you say recent cuts. However, it's cyclical,
so it happens every you know, four or five years.
Companies do these cuts and then when they're looking at
most of the time, ninety eight percent of the companies
have a diversity equity inclusion sitting under their HR the
(08:27):
Human resource organization, so that's usually the first organization they
tend to cut, and they tend to reduce the diversity office.
So that's not new. That's just been given a lot
more media, a lot, you know, a lot more heightened
awareness around it. But to your point, I'm just going
(08:48):
to be candid with you, if I may. I think
organizations that truly don't have a real strategy and investment
found a way to get off to kind of get
off the hook and and be able to go ahead
and just do what they always done, and they're no
longer motivated by the environment, you know, by society or
(09:10):
the community. So they just said, oh, well, you know,
we weren't doing this at any deep level anyway. So
that's that's the big group that you've seen really a change.
Those organizations, those companies that made big investments, they're still
there and they're making decisions. To be honest with you, Mike,
they're making decisions as it relates to profitability like any
(09:33):
other organization, are we going to hire or not? You know,
where do we need to reduce you know, spend and expenses.
And they look at the function like any other. So
that's that's the reality of it. Now have people have
to reframe some of their conversation yet around DEI they have,
(09:53):
and I would say that they needed to because if
there's any group that doesn't feel included, then that means
you need to clarify your narrative so that no one
feels excluded when you're talking about diversity, equity inclusion. So
that's been a big AHA moment for employers to talk
about to be employers of choice and to be forefront
(10:15):
of the recruiting. They're saying, this is what we're doing
to continue to commit and be socially impactful as well
as conscious defining that we are still committed to the
workforce right now.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
You alluded to a good point about diversity. We're not
just referring to racial diversity. When we talk about diversity,
we're talking about veterans, person's living with disabilities, LGBTQ, community
plus plus plus, many many different areas of people that
have been underestimated or not, you know, not necessarily included
(10:50):
in the mainstream. What do you think employers are missing
out on when they don't consider or they look past
these groups for employment.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I think the richness of the potential of new consumers
and what they have and when people may not And
you just talked about the big the big nuggets of
divers there's sixty four dimensions of diversity. I mean, this
is one of the theological wills that talk about all
the different ways. So when you don't have folks that
are that have different experiences, different cultures, different educational backgrounds,
(11:23):
different geographies, different you know, at the table, then innovation
doesn't occur. And we know with diversity around the table
increases the tensions for innovation and creativity, and then it
allows for more engagement from your workforce. And any time
a workforce stops learning, you miss the opportunities for growth.
(11:44):
And at the end of the day, I say that.
This is what I tell people. The folks in your
workforce are the folks in the community there are, and
they are your consumers. So so the more you engage
your workforce with diverse because people are going to be
among them for the most part, you know, the better
you are. If you look at disabilities, you will speak
(12:06):
specifically to disabilities. The largest population in the world, and
thirty five percent of the US right now, there's only
nineteen percent based on the US Census, a person with
disability in the workforce. I bet that companies, on average,
they report an average about three to five percent that
(12:27):
identifying the workforce. I wouldn't be surprised if they have
as high as ten percent. So they have a huge
opportunity where they could, you know, create more of a
trusted environment because this group, you know, they purchase, they
buy their consumers as well, and at some point we
all live long enough, we might become part of it. Yeah.
(12:49):
And then of course you know the veterans. The veterans
themselves are huge, and it's including the LGBTQ plus non
binary community, huge young generations that you can reach out
to to help in terms of education. So I could
just go on and on in terms of the business
opportunities that companies are missing if they don't lean into
the full meaning of diversity.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
And I think that's been validated by studies. Mackenzie I
think did a well known study that corporations that are
more diverse are more successful on every level, not just
in societal levels. But they're more profitable.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
They absolutely are. And companies know that themselves. They look
at their dynamics and their workforce and they see so
they know that, you know, the Walmarts, and sometimes they
have to be pushed forward to do better. But go
back forty years ago, Coca Cola and PEPSI were doing
it before it was even you know, prevalent to do.
(13:47):
They were marketing and ensuring that diverse because it goes
to diversity of taste within markets, and it's within the
United States. People forget that we are a melting pot
of so the cultures. We don't have to go outside
our country.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, for sure. What role do you think training plays
in more effective recruiting and diversity recruiting things like you know,
training on structural racism or unconscious biased those types of things.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I think training absolutely has a role in terms of
creating awareness and education. And then once you provide that
you have to have a next level, there's got to
be another phase to once you get the information to
practice it. If you're going to actually expect some level
of execution, some level of change, people have to you know,
(14:39):
want you learn. And the difference between unconscious bias and
anti racism. Anti racism is really trying to help you
educate historical, structural, ancestorial knowledge and systems that were in
place previously so that you can be aware of them
and recognize any stereotypes or any particular insights that you
(15:01):
and me have that be based on your experience, just
so that you can be very well educated from that perspective.
And then unconscious bias again is another awareness to that
you know where your biases are. We all have inherent biases.
But then you begin to recognize the bias that you
have and it's up to use up to the individual
to say, Okay, I am now aware, I'm now educated.
(15:24):
What can I do to make some of these changes
so that I can be more engaging, more inclusive, more patient,
more respectful. And then so I do honestly believe that
the expanded training within the organization is very important. Now
it's critical that they measure it, the effectiveness of it.
It's critical that they ensure they have highly competent people
(15:47):
that are doing the training. You don't have a person
that's very biased doing bias training, you know, and you
know and because companies don't.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, and I can confirm that just on a personal level,
I had gone through various types of training, unconscious bi
us in particular, and it's amazing if you grow up
in a particular way, what you don't know, you don't know,
you know, and just getting the training is like wow,
I never really thought of that perspective, and it does
help dramatically. It's not like concepts that are ungraspable. You
(16:18):
can figure it out and understand it. And I think
with the additional information it does help everyone.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
It's not like it's trying to change your decision, right.
It should be where you are, just like any any
upskilling getting new information so that you don't have to
change your opinion about anything. You just have awareness. And
that's that's really what's important. I think when people are
looking at training, and to be honest with you, just
(16:47):
to add training. In terms of the recruiting, the book
and the research, we saw that recruiters also get another
level of training outside of just the organizational training. So
they're looking at you know, legal retraining for peoples with disabilities,
the state requirements for a da PTS, you know for veterans,
(17:08):
and all of this other kind of mental wellness that
you know, These these recruiters who don't make hiring decisions,
they just go out and source the talent and present
it to companies, I mean to the hiring managers, which
is the greatest opportunity we have, and that's the largest
group that needs that needs the training of what you
(17:29):
just talked about, anti racism and unconscious biases.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Now, I'm sure culture and leadership play a big role
in all of this right across the spectrum. Do you
think diversity recruiting should be included in leadership performance metrics
and reviews?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Mike, I don't know if you were read that New
York Times article that he did. Another great question. So
because we talked, we did a story on that. So
I mean the reality is I mean, yes, I do,
and I do think it should be expanded to include
persons with disabilities and to include veterans, and I wish
(18:07):
it was a safer place where people the LGBTQIA plus
non binary community could identify in the recruiting process. I
wish it were expanded to those identity groups, but it's
not yet. So to say that, you know, diverse slates
is a mechanism where it's a platform or organizations. In
(18:29):
our research, eighty five percent of the company said, yes,
we use diverse slates primarily in the management leadership roles.
But that's just a provide access for people that normally
wouldn't have the opportunity to compete for roles. Has nothing
to do with not being underqualified you have to do.
It's just broadening the slate, that's all it's doing. It's
(18:50):
just broadening the slave. So I think you have to
have an intentional strategy on diversity recruiting. I believe incentives
should be there for everybody.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Think the future. I mean a lot of this has
to do with diversity, equity and inclusion programs and focus
on it and culture and companies and leadership. And we
have had some bumps with d E and I programs.
And you mentioned that this just ebbs and flows, and
it's part of normal course of business. But there have
been some meaningful bumps over the last couple of years
(19:22):
with THEE and I programs. How do you see the
future there?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
So again another a great question. So when you think
about so first to just talk about D diversity, equity,
inclusion as part of the culture, it should be a
strategic pillar helping integrate the processes and practices to ensure
that there's equity and inclusion and differences of respective differences
(19:48):
within your environment. So that's that's what it is. DEI
programs and initiatives are like any other cultural programs to
help organizations with engagement. And so it could be anything,
not even not even under the DEI umbrella, that just
happens to be part of it. So a professor shared
with me. I have the opportunity to go to a
(20:08):
summit at the PhD Project and one of the professors
was talking about how I asked her a question about
the this is vary same questions. So I'm gonna share
with you her answer because I agree with it. Talked
about how affirmative action was intended, legislation was intended to
be in place to help accelerate talent and then it
(20:30):
no longer is there. But what it did was put
was put in place in organizations, practices and policies that
are there. That's far beyond affirmative action. And that's what
I believe. I DEI acronyms go away. The actual work
and the systemic processes and procedures that have been institutionalized
within the within companies will continue to develop, and it'll
(20:55):
be you know, stronger in some organizations, more penetrated, and
some and not so much enough, depending on where they are.
But I believe the future of it is that the
practices that are meaningful and that are required and important
to be there and in place will be there, and
then over time they will become more and more institutionalized
across corporate America and not just you know, as it
(21:19):
is in governments. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Oh, that's that's the ideal. Right, It gets embedded in
the way companies do business, and it's part of the
culture and you don't have to really think about DEE
and I programs anymore because they're just part of the
way you do it.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, And I think we may always have to think
about that because we're ever changing.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
So one last question. Most of this discussion has been
about advice to employers. What kind of advice would you
give to prospective employees and employee and current employees.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Okay, so that's a great question. I think that when
you're looking at a position, you're seeing an opportunity you
want to imply for it's upon you your responsibility as
a prospective employee to see what those with your perspective
employer has done around their commitment to social responsibility. Whatever
(22:11):
your values are, look on their website, look what's publicly
out there, and then be prepared to ask those questions
in the interview to ensure your values are aligned with
that organization. Because seventy percent of your time is spent
in that workplace. And then when you're inside the I
will also say this to folks, feel free to ask
(22:33):
if you can ask questions, ask the recruiters some questions,
and feel free to ask some tough questions as you
move through the interview process. And then for folks that
are inside organizations, it is your responsibility to give one
hundred percent of your time and is their responsibility to
provide you psychological safety and physical trust one hundred percent
(22:58):
of the time. So you have the right to ask
questions to ensure that your wellbeing is protected. That you
you know, what are we doing to come back? You
know these issues that we're hearing. What are my opportunities
with your managers? I want to know what I need
to do for the next opportunity. You have to own
(23:21):
your advancement and your development. You can't expect someone to
tap in. Those days are gone, to tep you on
the shoulder and say, okay, let's go in. They're still
doing that for a small group of people, probably less
than two percent, so that means the rest of the
iy percent. You have to have those proactive conversations with
your managers and then one up and then the manager's manager.
(23:46):
And you have to be bold enough. And I'll say
this to women, might be bold enough just because men
don't have as much of an issue challenge as women do.
Be bold enough to ask for that next opportunity, to
be in a competitle, to be competitive in the next
position that you have your eye on, and not be
(24:07):
afraid of it, and to boast about what you do. Well,
there's a way to say, I am an expert at this,
how can I help?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
That is great advice. We've been talking to Pam mclbain,
the author of the skinny on diversity recruiting, Pam, thanks
so much, a lot of great insights. Really much appreciate
enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Thank you so much, Mike, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
We'll be right back after the news at the bottom
of the hour
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