November 9, 2024 • 27 mins
Talmage Boston, author of How the Best Did It? provides an accessible and insightful exploration of the leadership traits of eight iconic U.S. presidents, delving into their unique leadership styles and providing practical takeaways for contemporary leaders.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome back to What's at Risk. I'm Mike Christian Talmidge
Boston has practiced law as a commercial trial and a
pellet litigator in Dallas, Texas since nineteen seventy eight. Talmage
has been recognized in Texas Monthly as a Texas Super
(00:25):
Lawyer in business Litigation since two thousand and three. In
addition to maintaining his full time law practice, Talmadge is
the author of the recent How the Best Did It?
Leadership Lessons from Our Top Presidents. In this book, Boston
explores the leadership qualities of eight of our commanders in
Chief and then broadens his lens to examine how anyone
(00:49):
hoping to become a leader, whether in a major industry
or a small community, can adopt those traits in order
to overcome serious challenges and find success in their chosen field.
Not Our guest today is Talmich Boston, who, in addition
(01:16):
to maintaining a full time law practice, is the author
of five books, including How the Best Did It? Leadership
Lessons from our Top Presidents? How You Doing Tell much?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Great? Glad to be on your show, Mike.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah, thanks for joining us. So maybe just to get started,
you can tell our listeners. A little bit about your background.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Well, I'm seventy one years old. I've lived in Texas
almost my entire life, except for high school in Westport, Connecticut.
Graduate of the University of Texas under grand in law school.
Been in Dallas forty six years as a full time lawyer.
As you mentioned, I've written five books. The first two
were on baseball history, the third on legal history, and
the last two on presidential history, which has really become
(01:56):
my sweet spot. The new book How the Best Did
It leadership pleasants from our top presidents, came out in
April target audience as anybody who is or aspires to
be a leader in any type of organization, identifies the
most important leadership traits that caused our eighth greatest presidents
to be so successful. Those presidents being Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln,
(02:19):
both Roosevelt's, Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Reagan. The Forwards by John Avlon,
former CNN political analyst and presidential historian. Endorsements on the
Dust Jacket from three Pilazer Prize winners John Meetcham, Doors,
Current's Good Winner Neck Gordon Reid, as well as leading
presidential historians Brinkley, Mark Uptegrove, David Stewart, Will Embowden, and
(02:44):
Ronald White.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, that's great, especially at a time like this. The
topic is very relevant, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well that was planned. I knew if you're going to
write a presidential history book, it's good to bring it
out in a presidential election year. I'm also a contributing
columnist for the Dallas Morning News. Most of them tie
presidential history to today's presidential politics. It's good to be
talking about presidents in a presidential election year.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So tell me, this is lessons from top presidents, and
it's about leadership. How do you define leadership? What's your
key criteria for leadership and a president.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Well, obviously there's good leadership and bad leadership. But the
root word leadership is somebody who's got the wherewithal the
cause mass quantities of people to want to follow him
or her with whatever his or her vision appears to be,
his style of persuasion, his emotional intelligence that people decide
(03:49):
is somebody they want to follow. And obviously, good and
effective leadership you actually accomplish great results for the people
who your lead, and bad leadership you don't. So there's
no American history that's better reported than presidential histories. So
(04:10):
many more books are written about our presidence than any
other famous Americans. So there's this huge storehouse of data
and discernment associated with the performance of each of our presidents,
and particularly our greatest presidents have gotten the most attention.
(04:33):
Abraham Lincoln the second only to Jesus in terms of
the number of books written about him, over sixteen thousand.
Washington and a ton of books Jefferson both roosevelts. In
recent years a heightened awareness of the greatness and success
of the Eisenhower presidency. Harry Truman once said, it takes
fifty years for the dust to settle before it's really
(04:55):
fair to be able to evaluate the total performance of
a president. Reagan's coming up on fifty years and see
left the White House. So that's why I think presidential
leadership is so important and doesn't go out of style.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I agree with that it's really hard to judge leadership
in the context of the time that you're in, but retrospectively,
I think you can do it in a more objective way.
What was your criteria? I mean, this is a who's
who of presidents, obviously, but there could have been others.
What was your primary criteria for picking all of these guys?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Well, I have a threefold answer to that question. Number one,
probably the most important is the television network c SPAN.
Every time one president leaves the White House and a
new one comes in, c SPAN conducts a presidential ranking
poll of the country's leading historians one hundred and fifty
leading historians and asks them to vote for best to
(05:54):
worst on the basis of ten presidential leadership traits. And
they've been doing it for decades. In the last two
times they did the poll twenty seventeen when Obama went
out and Trump came in, twenty twenty one, when Trump
went out and Biden came in, the results of the
poll were identical as to rating one through nine. One
(06:16):
Lincoln to Washington three after you our four, Theodore Roosevelt five,
Eisenhower six, Truman seven, Jefferson eight, Kennedy nine Reagane. So
the only adjustment that I made to the c SPEN poll,
I think Truman's overrated. He got us into Korea and
had no idea how to get us out. He was
not successful in dealing with McCarthyism. He gets a lot
of credit for dropping the bombs and bringing a prompt
(06:39):
into World War two. But from my perspective, that was
a no brainer. He had to do that. Plan B
would have involved invading Japan, which would have lost hundreds
of thousands, if not babies of lives. I think the
best thing that ever happened to Harry Truman was that
David McColl wrote a peel that she won in Biography
of Them, and I think underrated. So I took Truman
(07:03):
out of my top eight and moved Reagan into the
top eight. That's part one of my answer. Part two,
I'm trying to sell my book to Democrats and Republicans,
and so in the modern ear, I wanted to have
two great Democratic presidents FDR and John F. Kennedy, and
two great Republican presidents Eisenhower and Reagan. And then part
(07:23):
three of my answer is with all the rampant and
out of control polarization that we find ourselves in as
a country in twenty twenty four, I think it's important
for Democrats to read and recognize that we've had great
Republican presidents, and I think it's important for Republicans to
read and recognize that we've had great democratic presidents. Let's
(07:48):
minimize our emphasis on party affiliation and just look at
the record, look at the performance, look at the results.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
When you think about leadership with those eight presidents, was
it times that they lived when dramatic you know, they
had a war, like you mentioned, Truman had to make
a dramatic decision of dropping the bombs or was it
more the overall result of what they accomplished over four
to eight years depending on their terms.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Certainly, if you're president during a major crisis and you
do well, and you handle it well and people perceive
that you've done a good job, that that's going to
heighten your stature. Washington, brand new country. Nobod knew who's
going to make it crisis from day one as to
whether this great experiment would last. So and to set
all the important presidents, Jefferson coming out of the Adams
(08:38):
presidency and the Sedition Act and all the division associated
with Federalists and Republicans, and Jefferson finding a way to
bring the country together, as well as making the deal
for the Louisiana purchase that double the sizes of the country.
At Lincoln. Of course, you've got the Civil War. Theodore
Roosevelt is rated our fourth grades. President wars, no depressions,
(09:01):
but just an expansion of the presidency into areas that
most people thought it needed to go in terms of
national parks, in terms of trust busting, in terms of
intervening in a labor strike, the Cold Strike and bringing
them into it before people started freezing to death. Proactive
(09:21):
foreign policy to do what it took to get the
Panama Canal to hide in trades of just growing the president,
whereas FDR you had the Great Depression and World War Two,
Eisenhower bringing an end to the Korean War and bringing
an in to McCarthyism, and then peace and prosperity from
(09:41):
then on, but also throughout the Cold War and brinksmanship
that was always in the forefront. Kennedy, the Cuban missile crisis,
dealing with the Berlin Wall, dealing with the Civil rights
movement and all the civil rights protests, envisioning and moving
forward with the American Moonshot program, and moving forward in
(10:03):
the space race, creation of the Peace Corps, and then Reagan,
of course bringing an end of the Cold War, reviving
the American economy, restoring America's self confidence after the disastrous presidency,
national malaise of Jimmy Carter. So, for the most part,
if you have a crisis and you handle it well,
(10:24):
it's going to enhance your stature, but it's not essential
to being perceived as a great president.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
What about impact on the culture? What kind you know,
what kind of an example they sell, where they did
they hold themselves in a way that caused people to
aspire to be better? Do you look at any of
those factors.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
That's part of the legacy. What was your impact on
the national mindset? To use the line that Reagan used
to defeat Carter in their one and only presidential debate,
where you said, are you better off or worse off
after the last four years? And ultimately that is the
assessment that people have to make in deciding whether to
(11:08):
allow somebody to have another term or his vice president
to have a subsequent term. People historically vote their pocketbook
as their top priority. The economy is the top priority. Obviously,
there are always other issues, the handling of foreign policy
as commander in chief in recent years, obviously immigration, the
(11:32):
issue of abortion. There's always other major issues, but typically
the economy is the most important.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
When you think back and you think of all the
revisionist history that we've had down through the years. Both
Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. How do you think that
has affected their legacy as leaders.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Well, it's had an impact in that obviously some statutes
have been taken down, although they're both still highly rated. Washington,
and I talk about this in my book, at the
end of his life had such a guilty conscience about
having owned slaves that he rewrote his will and allowed
for the freedom of the slaves that he owned upon
(12:13):
his death. Jefferson did not do that, although he did
upon his death free the slaves who he had fathered
with his slaves Sally Hemmings. So that does definitely impact
their legacy. I suspect that's why Jefferson is ranked seventh
instead of higher. But I think people, if you want
(12:35):
to be fair, you can't look at what was going
on two hundred years ago. With the twenty first century
social consciousness, you have to put into context where people
were in their particular eras. And if you're living in
Virginia and you have a large plantation and you want
it to be economically profitable, you can't possibly have enough
(13:00):
children to work the plantation. This is before we have
an influx of European immigrants to go to work in
American society. Under the Constitution, slavery was permitted, and so
that was a source of manpower in order to make
your slavery work. That in fact, at the time was legal,
(13:22):
and we can look at it. And of course Lincoln
and many in the nineteenth century, led by Lincoln ultimately
and abolitionists were realizing, I don't care about the economic
necessity in the long run. What's important is this is immoral,
this is evil. We've got to bring an end to it.
But that mindset evolved over time. You didn't have the
(13:46):
political power associated with the desire for national abolition of
slavery until you know, the Lincoln era. You didn't have
that in Washington. It was a debated issue at the
Constitutional Convention that worked out a compromise that people could
live with and signed off on, and the states ratified
(14:09):
all over the country. But so many times for these
kinds of social change, important social change to take place,
it takes time. I mean, look at Kennedy, Look at
finally we have a strong civil rights Act that he
submitted the bill, but he got assassinated before you get
it through. LBJ gets it through in July nineteen sixty four.
(14:33):
That's the Civil Rights Bill. A year later we have
a voting rights bill. Sixty eight we have a housing
rights bill. So you can look at all this with
twenty twenty hindsight and say, all these people were immoral
and dumb and anything else you want to say. But
they were creatures of their time, as are we people
fifty years from now probably going to be a gas
(14:54):
at certain things that were going on in American society
today that they regard as.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Evil and the moral no question, hard to judge somebody
in the context of a current time something that happened
two hundred years ago. What common themes did you you know,
common themes from an effectiveness standpoint did you see in
leadership styles across these eight presidents?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Well? I found three three themes that seemed to be
in the toolkits of all eight of my presidents. Number one,
they were all very effective persuaders. They knew how to communicate.
Some of them were great persuaders to the masses with
oratory and fireside chats and things like that. Some of
them did not have that gift, but they were really good.
(15:36):
One on one in small groups, but one way or
another to get moving and accomplish what they wanted to accomplish,
they had to be persuasive and get people to see
their way. The second common trade is they were all
self aware. They knew their strengths, they knew their weaknesses
as to where they were strong. They were always thinking,
(15:57):
how can I use my strengths most effectively, most frequently
to achieve the best results. But they also knew their weaknesses,
and they knew that they needed to bring in people
who were strong in the areas where they were weak
so that they wouldn't be minimized by their weaknesses. And then,
third and finally, they all knew that if they wanted
(16:19):
government to work during their presidency, they needed to focus
their efforts in leading the country on the Great American
Middle as opposed to the far right of the far left.
The Great American Middle, for that reason, is not as
well represented in Congress and in the presidency as historically
it's been. But those are the common traits that, from
(16:42):
my perspective, all eight of these presidents emulated.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
I think you make a good point about the middle.
I think many historians would say that we're at our
best when we're in a situation where when it's more
down the middle and there's compromise and collaboration and both
sides are you know, equally or maybe at least maybe
not equally, but at least contributing in a meaningful way.
And I think we definitely don't have that today. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
For example, at the twenty twenty four Republican Convention, George W.
Bush was not even invited.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah. That tells you a lot, doesn't it. I think
so when you think about leaders and you just broaden
out a little bit, I think you do some talking
about Churchill as a leader and other world leaders. How
would you compare somebody like Churchill and his leadership style
to And he's so well known as a leader and
went through so many dramatic things in Europe and in
(17:40):
the nineteen thirties and forties, how would you compare him
to some of the leaders we've had.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Well, it's easy to compare Churchill, for example, to Franklin
Roosevelt or John F. Kennedy or Ronald Reagan or Abraham
Lincoln for that matter, in terms of great public orators,
great persuaders, the power of words, but also having the
gift of remaining calm in a crisis, being able to
(18:09):
build bridges with your allies around the world, and work
effectively in a mode of collaboration for a common purpose
and against the common enemy. I mean, these are what
great political leaders in the international realm.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Do you ranked the eighth president? And if you're ranked them,
but you chose eight presidents and hit on the attributes
of each of them, do you have a favorite Lincoln?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
My book cover is a total of twenty four leadership
traits over the eighth presidents. I don't duplicate or replicate
the traits in any of them, but you could make
an argument, and pretty easy argument, that Lincoln had all
twenty four traits and nobody else did. So Lincoln is
(18:57):
really in a class by himself. And you know, to
do what he did to win the Civil War, to
bring it into slavery, to reunite the country, to provide
the moral leadership, the words that change the soul of
a nation, who's still you know, more than one hundred
(19:21):
and seventy years after his death, is so totally revered
and properly so. It's you know, people on the order
of Tolstoy and I mentioned this in the opening of
my Lincoln chapters. A man, you can talk about leaders
from all over the world, from every century, and none
(19:42):
of them compare with Lincoln. And that's not an American perspective,
that's toll Stoice perspective. And he was a pretty smart guy.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, I don't think too many historians would dispute that.
From the General Leadership website. Most people are aware of
Abraham Lincoln's new or his failures before he became presidents,
as the stories are widely circulated. Failed romantic relationships, failed
business ventures, and failed political campaigns. The list of failures
(20:13):
was long, indeed, but one failure that has never been
attributed to this great man is his failure to live
up to his legendary commitment to honesty. One such story
happened while he was still living in New Salem. Lincoln
and a partner bought a general store and attempted to
run it as a profitable business, but owing to unwise
(20:34):
investments and poor management, the store eventually went bankrupt. Shortly thereafter,
his partner in the store died, leaving Lincoln saddled with
enormous debt from the failed venture. But unlike many others,
who experienced failed businesses and chose to skip town to
escape their creditors. Lincoln promised to repay every cent he owed,
(20:58):
something he indeed accomplished. It took him more than fifteen
years to do so. And here are some of Lincoln's
own words. Once you forfeit the confidence of your fellow citizens,
you can never regain their respect and esteem. I am
not bound to win, but I am bound to be true.
(21:20):
I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound
to live by the light that I have. Any last
thoughts about your book and the lessons, and you know,
how did it impact you personally when you're writing it?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Well, the book is an exercise in what I call
applied history. It's one thing to know history, enjoy history
is something else to be able to try to apply
it to your daily living. And so at the end
of each of the eight chapters, I have something called
personal application, a series of questions for the reader to
ask him herself, how am I doing in my own
(21:57):
efforts to have the leadership traits that George Washington had
that I just read about in the Washington chapter or
in the next chapter. How am I doing in these
traits that Thomas Jeffers and so forth. So I want
the book to have an interactive component, so that in fact,
it can make people not just read about the history,
(22:19):
but think of ways they can be better, better leaders,
better communicators, and and you know that's that's the purpose.
It's not merely just to write an entertaining version of history.
It's to say and identify how it can be particularly
(22:40):
relevant and useful. People may say, well, why should I
accept the conclusions on presidential history by a Dallas lawyer.
And my answer is that for every one of my
chapters when I finished them, I have a network of
friends who are the country's leading presidential historians. Because every
(23:00):
time they have a new books come out, they come
through Texas on their book tours, and I do on
stage interviews with them, and I help them sell books,
and so we've been friends. I've been doing this for
over fifteen years. So every time I finished the chapter,
I sent the chapter on that present to at least
two major biographers of that president, and I said, do
I get anything wrong and a mistake something? Do you
(23:22):
agree with my conclusions about the most important traits? And
they give me some feedback which I would incorporate into
the final version. But none of them said, no, Tom,
that you got that wrong or you miss this trade.
So anyway, the conclusions in my book have been thoroughly
vetted by the country's leading presidential historians, and they've endorsed
it on the back of the desk jacket, you can
see that. So hopefully, despite the fact that I've been
(23:46):
a practicing lawyer, I have been a pretty serious historian
for the last several years, and my conclusions have been
vetted with the countries leading historians, and so I hope
that will encourage people to give it a chance and
use it and pass it on to their children, grandchildren.
(24:07):
I mean. Kim Burns likes to say that the reason
that we don't so many young Americans don't have a
deep love for history anymore is because when they were
in high school, they never remember the last name of
their history teacher, but they remember his first day and
that was his first name was coach. And too often
(24:28):
we have coaches as our history teacher and that's not
their main area of education or passion and so forth,
and so. But we do have so many wonderful historians
who write great books that become best sellers and help
us better understand, you know, decade after decade, what happened,
(24:50):
why it happened, why it's important now to know about
all that. So history has never been better ridden. Uh,
it's being read. But unfortunately the challenge is to get
in in front of our young people so that at
a young age they can start realizing how valuable a
(25:11):
knowledge of history.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Can be and new better to use his role models
than these group of this group of iconic presidents that
you've chosen. So the name of the book is how
the best did it? Leadership lessons from our top presidents.
We've been talking with Talmach Boston, talmuch, thanks so much,
a lot of great insights. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Well, Michae, I've really enjoyed being on your show. Thanks mate.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
We thank you.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Lead on me.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
When you're not fun.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
And I'll me you brea. Oh that you day.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Well that's all for this week. I'm Mike Christian. You
to join us again next week on What's at Risk.
Also check out our podcast at Wbznewsradio dot iHeart dot com.
What's on your Mind? Send us your thoughts, comments and
questions to What's at Risk at gmail dot com. That's
(26:20):
one word. What's at risk at gmail dot com. Thank you,
A big thank you to our producer Ken Carberry of
Chart Productions, to
Speaker 2 (27:15):
The b
Welcome back to What's at Risk. I'm Mike Christian Talmidge
Boston has practiced law as a commercial trial and a
pellet litigator in Dallas, Texas since nineteen seventy eight. Talmage
has been recognized in Texas Monthly as a Texas Super
(00:25):
Lawyer in business Litigation since two thousand and three. In
addition to maintaining his full time law practice, Talmadge is
the author of the recent How the Best Did It?
Leadership Lessons from Our Top Presidents. In this book, Boston
explores the leadership qualities of eight of our commanders in
Chief and then broadens his lens to examine how anyone
(00:49):
hoping to become a leader, whether in a major industry
or a small community, can adopt those traits in order
to overcome serious challenges and find success in their chosen field.
Not Our guest today is Talmich Boston, who, in addition
(01:16):
to maintaining a full time law practice, is the author
of five books, including How the Best Did It? Leadership
Lessons from our Top Presidents? How You Doing Tell much?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Great? Glad to be on your show, Mike.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah, thanks for joining us. So maybe just to get started,
you can tell our listeners. A little bit about your background.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Well, I'm seventy one years old. I've lived in Texas
almost my entire life, except for high school in Westport, Connecticut.
Graduate of the University of Texas under grand in law school.
Been in Dallas forty six years as a full time lawyer.
As you mentioned, I've written five books. The first two
were on baseball history, the third on legal history, and
the last two on presidential history, which has really become
(01:56):
my sweet spot. The new book How the Best Did
It leadership pleasants from our top presidents, came out in
April target audience as anybody who is or aspires to
be a leader in any type of organization, identifies the
most important leadership traits that caused our eighth greatest presidents
to be so successful. Those presidents being Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln,
(02:19):
both Roosevelt's, Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Reagan. The Forwards by John Avlon,
former CNN political analyst and presidential historian. Endorsements on the
Dust Jacket from three Pilazer Prize winners John Meetcham, Doors,
Current's Good Winner Neck Gordon Reid, as well as leading
presidential historians Brinkley, Mark Uptegrove, David Stewart, Will Embowden, and
(02:44):
Ronald White.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, that's great, especially at a time like this. The
topic is very relevant, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well that was planned. I knew if you're going to
write a presidential history book, it's good to bring it
out in a presidential election year. I'm also a contributing
columnist for the Dallas Morning News. Most of them tie
presidential history to today's presidential politics. It's good to be
talking about presidents in a presidential election year.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So tell me, this is lessons from top presidents, and
it's about leadership. How do you define leadership? What's your
key criteria for leadership and a president.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Well, obviously there's good leadership and bad leadership. But the
root word leadership is somebody who's got the wherewithal the
cause mass quantities of people to want to follow him
or her with whatever his or her vision appears to be,
his style of persuasion, his emotional intelligence that people decide
(03:49):
is somebody they want to follow. And obviously, good and
effective leadership you actually accomplish great results for the people
who your lead, and bad leadership you don't. So there's
no American history that's better reported than presidential histories. So
(04:10):
many more books are written about our presidence than any
other famous Americans. So there's this huge storehouse of data
and discernment associated with the performance of each of our presidents,
and particularly our greatest presidents have gotten the most attention.
(04:33):
Abraham Lincoln the second only to Jesus in terms of
the number of books written about him, over sixteen thousand.
Washington and a ton of books Jefferson both roosevelts. In
recent years a heightened awareness of the greatness and success
of the Eisenhower presidency. Harry Truman once said, it takes
fifty years for the dust to settle before it's really
(04:55):
fair to be able to evaluate the total performance of
a president. Reagan's coming up on fifty years and see
left the White House. So that's why I think presidential
leadership is so important and doesn't go out of style.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I agree with that it's really hard to judge leadership
in the context of the time that you're in, but retrospectively,
I think you can do it in a more objective way.
What was your criteria? I mean, this is a who's
who of presidents, obviously, but there could have been others.
What was your primary criteria for picking all of these guys?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Well, I have a threefold answer to that question. Number one,
probably the most important is the television network c SPAN.
Every time one president leaves the White House and a
new one comes in, c SPAN conducts a presidential ranking
poll of the country's leading historians one hundred and fifty
leading historians and asks them to vote for best to
(05:54):
worst on the basis of ten presidential leadership traits. And
they've been doing it for decades. In the last two
times they did the poll twenty seventeen when Obama went
out and Trump came in, twenty twenty one, when Trump
went out and Biden came in, the results of the
poll were identical as to rating one through nine. One
(06:16):
Lincoln to Washington three after you our four, Theodore Roosevelt five,
Eisenhower six, Truman seven, Jefferson eight, Kennedy nine Reagane. So
the only adjustment that I made to the c SPEN poll,
I think Truman's overrated. He got us into Korea and
had no idea how to get us out. He was
not successful in dealing with McCarthyism. He gets a lot
of credit for dropping the bombs and bringing a prompt
(06:39):
into World War two. But from my perspective, that was
a no brainer. He had to do that. Plan B
would have involved invading Japan, which would have lost hundreds
of thousands, if not babies of lives. I think the
best thing that ever happened to Harry Truman was that
David McColl wrote a peel that she won in Biography
of Them, and I think underrated. So I took Truman
(07:03):
out of my top eight and moved Reagan into the
top eight. That's part one of my answer. Part two,
I'm trying to sell my book to Democrats and Republicans,
and so in the modern ear, I wanted to have
two great Democratic presidents FDR and John F. Kennedy, and
two great Republican presidents Eisenhower and Reagan. And then part
(07:23):
three of my answer is with all the rampant and
out of control polarization that we find ourselves in as
a country in twenty twenty four, I think it's important
for Democrats to read and recognize that we've had great
Republican presidents, and I think it's important for Republicans to
read and recognize that we've had great democratic presidents. Let's
(07:48):
minimize our emphasis on party affiliation and just look at
the record, look at the performance, look at the results.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
When you think about leadership with those eight presidents, was
it times that they lived when dramatic you know, they
had a war, like you mentioned, Truman had to make
a dramatic decision of dropping the bombs or was it
more the overall result of what they accomplished over four
to eight years depending on their terms.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Certainly, if you're president during a major crisis and you
do well, and you handle it well and people perceive
that you've done a good job, that that's going to
heighten your stature. Washington, brand new country. Nobod knew who's
going to make it crisis from day one as to
whether this great experiment would last. So and to set
all the important presidents, Jefferson coming out of the Adams
(08:38):
presidency and the Sedition Act and all the division associated
with Federalists and Republicans, and Jefferson finding a way to
bring the country together, as well as making the deal
for the Louisiana purchase that double the sizes of the country.
At Lincoln. Of course, you've got the Civil War. Theodore
Roosevelt is rated our fourth grades. President wars, no depressions,
(09:01):
but just an expansion of the presidency into areas that
most people thought it needed to go in terms of
national parks, in terms of trust busting, in terms of
intervening in a labor strike, the Cold Strike and bringing
them into it before people started freezing to death. Proactive
(09:21):
foreign policy to do what it took to get the
Panama Canal to hide in trades of just growing the president,
whereas FDR you had the Great Depression and World War Two,
Eisenhower bringing an end to the Korean War and bringing
an in to McCarthyism, and then peace and prosperity from
(09:41):
then on, but also throughout the Cold War and brinksmanship
that was always in the forefront. Kennedy, the Cuban missile crisis,
dealing with the Berlin Wall, dealing with the Civil rights
movement and all the civil rights protests, envisioning and moving
forward with the American Moonshot program, and moving forward in
(10:03):
the space race, creation of the Peace Corps, and then Reagan,
of course bringing an end of the Cold War, reviving
the American economy, restoring America's self confidence after the disastrous presidency,
national malaise of Jimmy Carter. So, for the most part,
if you have a crisis and you handle it well,
(10:24):
it's going to enhance your stature, but it's not essential
to being perceived as a great president.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
What about impact on the culture? What kind you know,
what kind of an example they sell, where they did
they hold themselves in a way that caused people to
aspire to be better? Do you look at any of
those factors.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
That's part of the legacy. What was your impact on
the national mindset? To use the line that Reagan used
to defeat Carter in their one and only presidential debate,
where you said, are you better off or worse off
after the last four years? And ultimately that is the
assessment that people have to make in deciding whether to
(11:08):
allow somebody to have another term or his vice president
to have a subsequent term. People historically vote their pocketbook
as their top priority. The economy is the top priority. Obviously,
there are always other issues, the handling of foreign policy
as commander in chief in recent years, obviously immigration, the
(11:32):
issue of abortion. There's always other major issues, but typically
the economy is the most important.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
When you think back and you think of all the
revisionist history that we've had down through the years. Both
Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. How do you think that
has affected their legacy as leaders.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Well, it's had an impact in that obviously some statutes
have been taken down, although they're both still highly rated. Washington,
and I talk about this in my book, at the
end of his life had such a guilty conscience about
having owned slaves that he rewrote his will and allowed
for the freedom of the slaves that he owned upon
(12:13):
his death. Jefferson did not do that, although he did
upon his death free the slaves who he had fathered
with his slaves Sally Hemmings. So that does definitely impact
their legacy. I suspect that's why Jefferson is ranked seventh
instead of higher. But I think people, if you want
(12:35):
to be fair, you can't look at what was going
on two hundred years ago. With the twenty first century
social consciousness, you have to put into context where people
were in their particular eras. And if you're living in
Virginia and you have a large plantation and you want
it to be economically profitable, you can't possibly have enough
(13:00):
children to work the plantation. This is before we have
an influx of European immigrants to go to work in
American society. Under the Constitution, slavery was permitted, and so
that was a source of manpower in order to make
your slavery work. That in fact, at the time was legal,
(13:22):
and we can look at it. And of course Lincoln
and many in the nineteenth century, led by Lincoln ultimately
and abolitionists were realizing, I don't care about the economic
necessity in the long run. What's important is this is immoral,
this is evil. We've got to bring an end to it.
But that mindset evolved over time. You didn't have the
(13:46):
political power associated with the desire for national abolition of
slavery until you know, the Lincoln era. You didn't have
that in Washington. It was a debated issue at the
Constitutional Convention that worked out a compromise that people could
live with and signed off on, and the states ratified
(14:09):
all over the country. But so many times for these
kinds of social change, important social change to take place,
it takes time. I mean, look at Kennedy, Look at
finally we have a strong civil rights Act that he
submitted the bill, but he got assassinated before you get
it through. LBJ gets it through in July nineteen sixty four.
(14:33):
That's the Civil Rights Bill. A year later we have
a voting rights bill. Sixty eight we have a housing
rights bill. So you can look at all this with
twenty twenty hindsight and say, all these people were immoral
and dumb and anything else you want to say. But
they were creatures of their time, as are we people
fifty years from now probably going to be a gas
(14:54):
at certain things that were going on in American society
today that they regard as.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Evil and the moral no question, hard to judge somebody
in the context of a current time something that happened
two hundred years ago. What common themes did you you know,
common themes from an effectiveness standpoint did you see in
leadership styles across these eight presidents?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Well? I found three three themes that seemed to be
in the toolkits of all eight of my presidents. Number one,
they were all very effective persuaders. They knew how to communicate.
Some of them were great persuaders to the masses with
oratory and fireside chats and things like that. Some of
them did not have that gift, but they were really good.
(15:36):
One on one in small groups, but one way or
another to get moving and accomplish what they wanted to accomplish,
they had to be persuasive and get people to see
their way. The second common trade is they were all
self aware. They knew their strengths, they knew their weaknesses
as to where they were strong. They were always thinking,
(15:57):
how can I use my strengths most effectively, most frequently
to achieve the best results. But they also knew their weaknesses,
and they knew that they needed to bring in people
who were strong in the areas where they were weak
so that they wouldn't be minimized by their weaknesses. And then,
third and finally, they all knew that if they wanted
(16:19):
government to work during their presidency, they needed to focus
their efforts in leading the country on the Great American
Middle as opposed to the far right of the far left.
The Great American Middle, for that reason, is not as
well represented in Congress and in the presidency as historically
it's been. But those are the common traits that, from
(16:42):
my perspective, all eight of these presidents emulated.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
I think you make a good point about the middle.
I think many historians would say that we're at our
best when we're in a situation where when it's more
down the middle and there's compromise and collaboration and both
sides are you know, equally or maybe at least maybe
not equally, but at least contributing in a meaningful way.
And I think we definitely don't have that today. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
For example, at the twenty twenty four Republican Convention, George W.
Bush was not even invited.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah. That tells you a lot, doesn't it. I think
so when you think about leaders and you just broaden
out a little bit, I think you do some talking
about Churchill as a leader and other world leaders. How
would you compare somebody like Churchill and his leadership style
to And he's so well known as a leader and
went through so many dramatic things in Europe and in
(17:40):
the nineteen thirties and forties, how would you compare him
to some of the leaders we've had.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Well, it's easy to compare Churchill, for example, to Franklin
Roosevelt or John F. Kennedy or Ronald Reagan or Abraham
Lincoln for that matter, in terms of great public orators,
great persuaders, the power of words, but also having the
gift of remaining calm in a crisis, being able to
(18:09):
build bridges with your allies around the world, and work
effectively in a mode of collaboration for a common purpose
and against the common enemy. I mean, these are what
great political leaders in the international realm.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Do you ranked the eighth president? And if you're ranked them,
but you chose eight presidents and hit on the attributes
of each of them, do you have a favorite Lincoln?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
My book cover is a total of twenty four leadership
traits over the eighth presidents. I don't duplicate or replicate
the traits in any of them, but you could make
an argument, and pretty easy argument, that Lincoln had all
twenty four traits and nobody else did. So Lincoln is
(18:57):
really in a class by himself. And you know, to
do what he did to win the Civil War, to
bring it into slavery, to reunite the country, to provide
the moral leadership, the words that change the soul of
a nation, who's still you know, more than one hundred
(19:21):
and seventy years after his death, is so totally revered
and properly so. It's you know, people on the order
of Tolstoy and I mentioned this in the opening of
my Lincoln chapters. A man, you can talk about leaders
from all over the world, from every century, and none
(19:42):
of them compare with Lincoln. And that's not an American perspective,
that's toll Stoice perspective. And he was a pretty smart guy.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, I don't think too many historians would dispute that.
From the General Leadership website. Most people are aware of
Abraham Lincoln's new or his failures before he became presidents,
as the stories are widely circulated. Failed romantic relationships, failed
business ventures, and failed political campaigns. The list of failures
(20:13):
was long, indeed, but one failure that has never been
attributed to this great man is his failure to live
up to his legendary commitment to honesty. One such story
happened while he was still living in New Salem. Lincoln
and a partner bought a general store and attempted to
run it as a profitable business, but owing to unwise
(20:34):
investments and poor management, the store eventually went bankrupt. Shortly thereafter,
his partner in the store died, leaving Lincoln saddled with
enormous debt from the failed venture. But unlike many others,
who experienced failed businesses and chose to skip town to
escape their creditors. Lincoln promised to repay every cent he owed,
(20:58):
something he indeed accomplished. It took him more than fifteen
years to do so. And here are some of Lincoln's
own words. Once you forfeit the confidence of your fellow citizens,
you can never regain their respect and esteem. I am
not bound to win, but I am bound to be true.
(21:20):
I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound
to live by the light that I have. Any last
thoughts about your book and the lessons, and you know,
how did it impact you personally when you're writing it?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Well, the book is an exercise in what I call
applied history. It's one thing to know history, enjoy history
is something else to be able to try to apply
it to your daily living. And so at the end
of each of the eight chapters, I have something called
personal application, a series of questions for the reader to
ask him herself, how am I doing in my own
(21:57):
efforts to have the leadership traits that George Washington had
that I just read about in the Washington chapter or
in the next chapter. How am I doing in these
traits that Thomas Jeffers and so forth. So I want
the book to have an interactive component, so that in fact,
it can make people not just read about the history,
(22:19):
but think of ways they can be better, better leaders,
better communicators, and and you know that's that's the purpose.
It's not merely just to write an entertaining version of history.
It's to say and identify how it can be particularly
(22:40):
relevant and useful. People may say, well, why should I
accept the conclusions on presidential history by a Dallas lawyer.
And my answer is that for every one of my
chapters when I finished them, I have a network of
friends who are the country's leading presidential historians. Because every
(23:00):
time they have a new books come out, they come
through Texas on their book tours, and I do on
stage interviews with them, and I help them sell books,
and so we've been friends. I've been doing this for
over fifteen years. So every time I finished the chapter,
I sent the chapter on that present to at least
two major biographers of that president, and I said, do
I get anything wrong and a mistake something? Do you
(23:22):
agree with my conclusions about the most important traits? And
they give me some feedback which I would incorporate into
the final version. But none of them said, no, Tom,
that you got that wrong or you miss this trade.
So anyway, the conclusions in my book have been thoroughly
vetted by the country's leading presidential historians, and they've endorsed
it on the back of the desk jacket, you can
see that. So hopefully, despite the fact that I've been
(23:46):
a practicing lawyer, I have been a pretty serious historian
for the last several years, and my conclusions have been
vetted with the countries leading historians, and so I hope
that will encourage people to give it a chance and
use it and pass it on to their children, grandchildren.
(24:07):
I mean. Kim Burns likes to say that the reason
that we don't so many young Americans don't have a
deep love for history anymore is because when they were
in high school, they never remember the last name of
their history teacher, but they remember his first day and
that was his first name was coach. And too often
(24:28):
we have coaches as our history teacher and that's not
their main area of education or passion and so forth,
and so. But we do have so many wonderful historians
who write great books that become best sellers and help
us better understand, you know, decade after decade, what happened,
(24:50):
why it happened, why it's important now to know about
all that. So history has never been better ridden. Uh,
it's being read. But unfortunately the challenge is to get
in in front of our young people so that at
a young age they can start realizing how valuable a
(25:11):
knowledge of history.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Can be and new better to use his role models
than these group of this group of iconic presidents that
you've chosen. So the name of the book is how
the best did it? Leadership lessons from our top presidents.
We've been talking with Talmach Boston, talmuch, thanks so much,
a lot of great insights. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Well, Michae, I've really enjoyed being on your show. Thanks mate.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
We thank you.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Lead on me.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
When you're not fun.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
And I'll me you brea. Oh that you day.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Well that's all for this week. I'm Mike Christian. You
to join us again next week on What's at Risk.
Also check out our podcast at Wbznewsradio dot iHeart dot com.
What's on your Mind? Send us your thoughts, comments and
questions to What's at Risk at gmail dot com. That's
(26:20):
one word. What's at risk at gmail dot com. Thank you,
A big thank you to our producer Ken Carberry of
Chart Productions, to
Speaker 2 (27:15):
The b
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