July 1, 2024 • 23 mins
The EPA is phasing down the production and consumption of R-410A refrigerant, in an effort to make new HVAC systems use more sustainable and reduce the impact HVAC systems have on the environment. This is causing a great deal of confusion, and even some panic, among consumers. Kellie Loudin of Rumer Loudin stops by to clear up the misconceptions surrounding the phase out, what all this means for your current HVAC system, and more.
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(00:13):
So I know it's kind of beena minute since we've done one of these,
definitely the first time in a longtime. But we are back with
a new episode of Experts on Demandright here, I'm Corey Klug In case
any of you forgot who was hostingthis or anything like that, where'd you
get? Kind of reintroducing ourselves afterbeing away for so long, But we
are back at here and also backat it with Kelly Louden of Rumor loud
(00:35):
and Kelly, thanks for joining usback here. Thanks a lot. It's
great to be back. So weare talking about something that's going to be
happening, not until next year,but very important for people to keep in
mind. So we'll get into thathere in a little bit. But before
we get into that, the lasttime we had you here the new location
in Mountainsville is it was just aboutto open or just just you're really closest
(00:58):
starting to open, right We openedJuly first of last year's when we took
over. So it's coming up ona year anniversary, you know, at
the end of this week, andwe're doing very well there. People in
moundsoev and so welcoming. It's reallybeen a good experience, and there's plenty
of business there and we just wantpeople to give us a try because I
(01:22):
think they'll be happy if they lookonline and see Google reviews for Rumor Loudon.
I think that will help them maketheir decision absolutely. I mean,
it's always a good thing when wecan see one of the local businesses expand
the way that you guys did.And now that we're coming up on a
year here, it's good to seethat things are going smoothly. Yeah,
now I know what it's like tohave a third child. I'm still trying
(01:46):
to get the hang of habit once. Well it's you know, it is
a lot more to manage, butwell worth it exactly. So the important
thing that we want to bring upwith this episode of that Spurts on Demand.
When we flip the calendar to twentytwenty five, there's going to be
a refrigerant phase out going on here. The Environmental Protection Agency has mandated that
(02:08):
manufacturers stop using our four ten Arefrigerant and residential HVAC systems starting in the
new year. The goal of thischange is to try and reduce the contribution
of HVAC systems to the climate change. So you want to clear up some
things about this refrigerant phase out here, because there are a lot of different
(02:28):
things going around and it's confusing alot of people. Well, I think
what frustrates me the most is ifI hear another contractor has told people,
oh, you've got to replace yoursystem because now you can't use that anymore.
And that's not true with four tenA, and it's not true with
our twenty two. Still you canstill use it. You don't have to
(02:49):
replace it. It may be prudent, right, but you don't have to.
So I wanted to just start withmaybe a little history. And the
Montreal Protocol was ratified in nineteen eightyeight for the US, and that's what
started the whole process, a phasedown and out, all right. So
phase down is reduction in production andconsumption, and a phase out is when
(03:12):
it can no longer be produced,okay and imported. So R twenty two
actually started the phase down in twentyten. So as it as it progressed,
we could still buy and they werestill making our twenty two, but
they were phasing down who was makingit, how much it was allowed to
(03:36):
be made per year, you know, and things like that, and so
what happens when you have scarcity,the price goes up, right, and
so that's what's happened with R twentytwo. I can remember my dad would
be so angry when a thirty poundjug of R twenty two was thirty bucks.
They raised it to thirty bucks,and he was just this is ridiculous.
Now. That was back in theeighties, right, But and then
(04:00):
I think it was last summer orthe summer before I saw a jog was
three thousand, Oh my good dollars. And it fluctuates like gold. The
price has come down again. Eventuallyit'll be obsolete. So if people were
hanging on to it hoping to geta really good price out of that joga
R twenty two, it'll it'll beabsolete because soon, right are they soon
(04:20):
the art you know, some ofthe R twenty two units will be replaced
and people there won't even be ademand for it, so you might want
to, you know, sell itif you're hoarding it. Also, I've
also heard of R twenty two onthe black market. Oh yeah, I
love so it's become a black marketitem. I'm not going there, no,
not at all, because one youdon't know where it came from.
(04:43):
You don't know is it pure,is it recycled, is it mixed with
something else? You know, there'sthere's some things you have to be careful
of. Basically, with anything onthe black market, you don't know what
you're going in right, exactly exactly. So R twenty two's definitely had an
interesting history. And if you stillhave an R twenty two unit, you
can still use it if it's stillworking, that's fine. If you have
(05:09):
a if it needs recharged and acontractor has R twenty two, although I've
heard the price anywhere from one hundredand eighty to three hundred dollars a pound
locally for R twenty two, itmight not be your best decision to recharge
it because the rest of your systemis also old, right, But if
(05:29):
you want to, you could dothat, all right, catch it.
But again, R twenty two willeventually become obsolete and not be available.
Now. Now, if I couldjump in here, what are there some
of the differences between R twenty twoand the four ten Are there any distinct
differences between the two? Well,they all look at their GWP, which
is global warming potential, all right, So how does it affect the climate,
(05:54):
especially the ozone layer. R twentytwo was found to deteriorate the ozone
layer. Now they look at fourten A, it was better, but
it's still not what their goal isand the efficiency level. So they want
to make appliances more and more efficient, and there's a couple of ways to
(06:14):
do that. One is the refrigerantthat's used and can you because what refrigerant
is used to do is transfer heatfrom front one location to another. It's
a transfer medium, okay, Sothat's why you have a hot air discharge
on your outdoor unit through okay,through that refrigerant circulating and working with a
blower on your furnace. It's actuallyremoving heat and then it discharges as outside
(06:40):
through your out for your outdoor unit. So they they are looking for,
you know, more efficiency out ofthe refrigent as well. They make the
units physically bigger because it has morecoil, more circulating and then it so
sometimes people are shocked, like,boy, my old ones not that big.
(07:00):
Well, TASCA has the you know, it's been required to increase the
efficiency. So they look at theUnited States and regions and each region has
its own efficiency standards for equipment thathas to be sold in that area.
So ours is not as high asan efficiency requirement as a south or the
west. Right. So right nowit's thirteen ci er, which is again
(07:25):
an efficiency measurement. I'm not goingto go into the weeds with that.
But and in the south it mightbe fourteen or fifteen, right, So
our region is not quite as rigidand its standard, you know, or
it has to be as efficient.Now here's the thing that can be very
(07:46):
difficult for people to comprehend is thatthe cost of the increased efficiency may be
more than the savings you'll ever getout of your unit. And a good
contractor should be able to evaluate evaluatethat for you. So what we look
at is trying to create a millionB to you across each efficiency. And
(08:07):
then if we're looking at heating eachoil gas, propane, elect straight electric,
heat pump, geothermal, and welook at, okay, how much
does it cost to create a millionB to you? All right, Well,
once you do that, then youcan look at the cost comparison,
see what your savings is going tobe over your old unit, and then
(08:28):
how quickly you get that payback Andsometimes it's not going to pay you back
in the life of the unit.So that's something people don't understand, and
especially and especially since, as wementioned in the beginning, you're trying to
find ways to trying to find waysto go with this new change that's going
(08:50):
on, but at the same time, you don't want to put as much
effort as you need to put intoit. Well, you know, the
EPA and gets to sit in theirhigh rey tower, right and you know,
the government gets to sign on tothe Montreal Protocol and then something called
the Kegalley Amendment which they signed inOctober of twenty two, and then we
(09:13):
as the contractors get to explain everythingto everybody. They are, you know,
putting us on the front line rightto try and explain all this.
Now they have information out there onthe website, but you know, you're
the person that's hopping talking face toface with a property owner and we get
(09:33):
that joy. So don't kill themessenger, you know. And I'm not
jumping onto a global climate change politicalbandwagon. That's not what I'm here for.
What I'm here for us to explainwhat the law says, what we
have to comply with, provide informationwhere property owners can make their decision on
do they want to replace, dothey want to maintain? Do they want
(09:54):
to wait for the new refrigerants likeyou mentioned is coming up. So the
refrigerant is considered an A two Lrefriger And what's that means is there's two
levels of toxicity A and B allright. So A means it's less toxic.
Two is the flammability, which isUH one, two or three.
(10:15):
So it's in the middle, andit's determined to be mildly flammable, okay,
And L means it has fluorine init, all right. So it's
an A two L refrigerant. Now, when I first heard it was mildly
flammable, I was like, ohmy goodness, what is that kind of
means to us? Are we're gonnahave to get it new tools? Are
we gonna have to laybor our vansas you know, hauling flammable? You
(10:35):
know, things are gonna have toyou know what kind of training aren't have
to do? You're gonna have towear hazmat suits? What does this mean?
And I always go, you know, it's the most extreme, and
that's and that's just another reason whywe're clearing things up right here, because
it because of that panic that mighthave been suited well. And so many
people associate flammable with explosive, allright, so it's not always the same
(10:58):
thing, right, Not all thingsthat are flammable explode, so I want
to clear that up right away.And there's been many types of flammable substances
that are handled. So think ofpropaine for your girl. All right,
have there been mistakes made? Oh? Yeah, right, a candlewick,
lamp oil. I mean, thosetides of things are are flammable, but
(11:20):
you can be safe with them,right, Okay, mildly flammable, so
we are not going to have tolabel our vans. And the tool adaptation
isn't too bad. So I feltbetter as I started researching this, and
what we found out is that thereare three conditions that need to be met
(11:45):
for it to be flammable. Okay, So those three conditions are One,
there has to be a leak that'ssignificant, significant enough to reach the low
flammability limit. It's a tongue twist, which is above ten percent. So
the enclosed space above ten percent wouldhave to be you know, be this
(12:09):
a two our refrigerant before it wouldbe considered in a significant leak. Two,
the concentration, so the refrigerant hasto be highly concentrated, all right.
And three, there has to bean ignition source, so the refrigerant
is exposed to an open flame orhigh energy ignition source. However, laboratories
(12:33):
tests have shown that even a loweven a blow torch flame may not be
able to ignite a two our refrigerants, gotcha. Okay, so it has
the conditions have to be absolutely perfect. And what the manufacturers are doing is
they are putting sensors in the coilthat sits above the furnace or below.
If you have a down flow andthey're putting sensors in there and you know
(12:56):
kind of mitigation things, well it'llshut the system off. Gotcha. If
something like that happens now to thecontractor, you think, oh, well,
can the sensors go bad? Right? Can it go and shut down
your system? And that's the onlyproblem that there wasn't necessarily the refrigerant to
cost it. That remains to beseen, you know, it's it,
(13:20):
I mean, as it is withany new thing that's going to be coming
along here, there unfortunately will stillbe a bit of a learning process even
when this change does go into effect. Yeah, there's it's definitely going to
be a high learning curve. Sowhat we've found out also is that there
are about seventy million units worldwide,especially in Europe and India, that already
(13:43):
used A too L refrigerants. Sothe you know, they say, oh
the US is behind, the USis behind, Well, we are a
little behind in that we haven't adoptedthese A two refrigerants yet, which other
countries have, so they've been usingand actually nine out of ten cars on
the road today is using A twoour refrigerance right in their air conditioning systems.
(14:07):
And then many window units have Atwo hour refrigerants since twenty fifteen actually,
and you don't see any reports oranything like that on it, so
that there's been all these explosions oranything happening like that, or any flammability
or fires. So that made mefeel a little better, you know,
because I was in the same panicas everybody else when I hear mildly flammable.
(14:28):
So I'm I'm hoping for all thesafety protocols that work that these three
conditions won't happen, But I thinkyou still have to have people who know
how to handle it exactly. Andas we mentioned the learning curve. It's
still going to be there. Butwhen we have trained professionals like you guys
(14:48):
at rumor Loud and looking at everynook and cranny with this change, it's
gonna be it's gonna give people thatreassurance they need. So what's going on
now is there are a two hourrefrigerance system items now available. They're limited
and the manufacturers are phasing them in. And the whole idea with the Kigali
Amendment and the AIM Act, whichthe AIM Act in the United States gave
(15:13):
the EPA charged with the EPA oftracking three situation, they have to they
have to phase down production and consumptionof four TENA. Okay, they also
have to manage the substitutions that arecoming in for FOURTENA, which are currently
(15:33):
are thirty two and are four fiftyfour B. Now, the difference between
those two has to be whether themanufacturer owns the factory I think, but
they're both acceptable at this point.But there has to be efficiency increases over
(15:54):
the years and then all of thefour ten A has to be reduced by
eighty five percent by twenty thirty six, all right, So it's a gradual,
phased out, just like our twentytwo was. You know, it
was ten years before the manufacturing importcouldn't happen anymore. You could still use
stock, you can use reclaimed,you know, recycled and reclaimed. And
(16:18):
what we've done for people is ifthey're just like, please just get me
by, Please just get me bywith their you know, we may have
some reclaimed R twenty two and we'llsay we'll go ahead and put this in,
but we make no guarantees with yourleaks or how long it's going to
last or anything. But they say, oh, just get me by,
And I get that. You know, you just can't afford it right now.
You just put on a new roofand your air conditioner goes. I
mean, there's all kinds of thingsthat happened. Oh yeah, right.
(16:41):
So the EPA also has to facilitatethe transition. So they've been you know,
tasked with that by our government throughthe Aim Act. And so the
R four TENNA is going to bephased out as well, and eventually,
but the phase down is the firststep and then phase out. So if
(17:03):
you're looking I'm trying to look atvarious situations and try to help people evaluate
to make a good decision about whatto do with their current system. So,
if you have an R twenty twounit, like I said before,
and it doesn't leak and you wantto just keep on using it because it's
working, fine, you can dothat. Ain't broke, don't fix it,
right exactly now, you should maintainit core. Oh yeah, yeah,
(17:26):
absolutely right. Your words are comingcoming back in the head and ounce
of prevention is worth a pound ofcure. And that's exactly right, because
even you know, even though youdon't see it, there's vibrations going on,
you know, in the in thesystem, and even a loose wire
can stop you dead in the water, right, So that that could happen
with the system. Now, let'sjust say you do have a leak and
(17:47):
you want to recharge it, andyou want to pay two or three hundred
dollars a pound per refrigerant, youcan do that? Is that the most
prudent decision? Probably not again,because of your unit is also the rest
of your stuff. Oh, ifyou compress your condenser, fan, motor
and so on as well, thoseleaks can be very hard to find.
Now, what we do is wecheck all the beraze joints, all the
places that it could be obvious totry and find that butt. There's lots
(18:11):
of you know, copper in there, embedded and so on. You can't
always find it. So if werecharge it, it may last you two
hours, two days, two weeks, two years, you know, if
we can't find the leak. Now, there is a die that you can
put in a system that's fluorescent.You have to wait for it to permeate
the system and then you look atit with a black light. So you
(18:33):
like cover the unit in your headand you hold a black light and you
can see where those leaks are.They may be repaarable, they may not,
you know, So that's up tothe homeowner, but it might be
prudent to think about changing. Sothen we get to should you buy a
unit now with a four ten Aor in the future. Well, I
think that depends on a couple ofthings. One, are you going to
stay in that house for the restof your life? Yeah, you know,
(18:55):
you might want to wait, andyou might want to. But the
new equipment's going to be more expensive, of course. I mean, not
only does change give an excuse fora manufacturer to raise prices, but they're
also using sensors now and an extraborder two to you know, monitor that
that refrigerate a new atl a tooour refrigerant. So you got to think,
(19:17):
Okay, do I just want toput it in now? I know
I'm going to be able to serviceit probably through twenty thirty six, And
and I want a cheaper price now. You know, if you're going to
sell your house, you might wantto do that. If if you're going
to be there for the rest ofyour life, you might want to try
and get by and buy the newrefrigerant. But the equipment is going to
(19:38):
be more expensive. So I justhope all this information helps people, you
know, evaluate what to do withtheir current system, and especially since it
can it can be a bit ofa scary change, as as can be
with quite a few other changes thatcould that could ever happen. But the
more information and transparency that we canhave before this change goes into place,
(20:03):
the better off people are going tobe when it comes to making important decisions
like that. And if someone givesyou a scare tactic and says, oh,
you can't use that anymore, yougot to replace your system. I
mean it broke my heart. Ihad this elderly lady call a couple of
summers ago and she goes, whatthe guy was just at my house and
told me that I have to replacemy system. Then I'm not going to
be able to use my current refrigerator, you know, my current air conditioner.
I said, ma'am, yes youcan. You know, so get
(20:26):
another opinion. If someone is tellingyou that, get another opinion. Because,
as I've write this second now,things change all the time. I
mean, I think the Cagallley Amendmentchanged dying times. So you know,
things change all the time. Butas of right now, no one's forcing
you to do that. Yeah,a lot of a lot of the time,
the first thing you hear is notalways going to be the be all,
(20:49):
end all solutions. So do alittle bit more research if you do
come across somebody saying something like that, because because as we mentioned, very
big decision, right, and there'sa lot of information on the internet.
There's YouTube videos, there's all kindsof presentations about it. So if people
are more you know, they wantto learn more about the chemistry of the
(21:12):
refrigerants, you can find that ifyou want to learn more about the history
and the different you know, amendmentsthe Cagallley Amendment and the Montrell Protocol and
everything. There's information on that andwhen it was ratified. So there's still
a lot of more information out there, and I try and peel it down
to where you know, the averagehome owner will understand, you know,
(21:36):
what's being presented and understand what theyare going to need to think about if
they're you know, facing a possiblechange. And that is why you're an
expert on demand. Thank you,Corey. So if anybody needs any of
rumor allowed in services or information,where all can they go? Well,
there's information on rumor aloud dot com, and there's information at our three locations.
(22:03):
And you know, I have peoplecall and ask questions all the time,
even if they're not scheduling an estimateor service call. I don't mind
that I want I will give theman honest answer. I will give them
the most current answer that I have, and I don't care if people call.
So they could call the Mountsville office, they could call Saint Clair's the
office, they could call the Barnesvilloffice. They could send a question to
(22:23):
info at rumorloud dot com. Ipersonally get those and you know, I'll
answer as best I can or setup a phone call. You know,
I just want to be and ifI don't know it, I will research
it in or and or refer themto a good source. So lots of
good information ahead of this big changecoming in the new year, and especially
when it comes from an expert ondemand like Kelly Louden of Rumor loud and
(22:47):
it gives people a lot of peaceof mind before the change goes into effect.
So Kelly, thanks so much forjoining us back here. It's having
me hopefully not too long before thenext one. We do one of these,
Okay, it's a deal. Sothank you guys so much for listening
to Experts on Demand. As always, if you want to listen to past
episodes, you can check out theExperts on Demand podcast on the free iHeartRadio
app, or you can go toNewsRadio eleven seventy dot com and it's listed
(23:10):
under the podcast tab and the dropdom menus. So I'm grek Lude,
thanks so much for listening to andlearning from an expert on demand.
So I know it's kind of beena minute since we've done one of these,
definitely the first time in a longtime. But we are back with
a new episode of Experts on Demandright here, I'm Corey Klug In case
any of you forgot who was hostingthis or anything like that, where'd you
get? Kind of reintroducing ourselves afterbeing away for so long, But we
are back at here and also backat it with Kelly Louden of Rumor loud
(00:35):
and Kelly, thanks for joining usback here. Thanks a lot. It's
great to be back. So weare talking about something that's going to be
happening, not until next year,but very important for people to keep in
mind. So we'll get into thathere in a little bit. But before
we get into that, the lasttime we had you here the new location
in Mountainsville is it was just aboutto open or just just you're really closest
(00:58):
starting to open, right We openedJuly first of last year's when we took
over. So it's coming up ona year anniversary, you know, at
the end of this week, andwe're doing very well there. People in
moundsoev and so welcoming. It's reallybeen a good experience, and there's plenty
of business there and we just wantpeople to give us a try because I
(01:22):
think they'll be happy if they lookonline and see Google reviews for Rumor Loudon.
I think that will help them maketheir decision absolutely. I mean,
it's always a good thing when wecan see one of the local businesses expand
the way that you guys did.And now that we're coming up on a
year here, it's good to seethat things are going smoothly. Yeah,
now I know what it's like tohave a third child. I'm still trying
(01:46):
to get the hang of habit once. Well it's you know, it is
a lot more to manage, butwell worth it exactly. So the important
thing that we want to bring upwith this episode of that Spurts on Demand.
When we flip the calendar to twentytwenty five, there's going to be
a refrigerant phase out going on here. The Environmental Protection Agency has mandated that
(02:08):
manufacturers stop using our four ten Arefrigerant and residential HVAC systems starting in the
new year. The goal of thischange is to try and reduce the contribution
of HVAC systems to the climate change. So you want to clear up some
things about this refrigerant phase out here, because there are a lot of different
(02:28):
things going around and it's confusing alot of people. Well, I think
what frustrates me the most is ifI hear another contractor has told people,
oh, you've got to replace yoursystem because now you can't use that anymore.
And that's not true with four tenA, and it's not true with
our twenty two. Still you canstill use it. You don't have to
(02:49):
replace it. It may be prudent, right, but you don't have to.
So I wanted to just start withmaybe a little history. And the
Montreal Protocol was ratified in nineteen eightyeight for the US, and that's what
started the whole process, a phasedown and out, all right. So
phase down is reduction in production andconsumption, and a phase out is when
(03:12):
it can no longer be produced,okay and imported. So R twenty two
actually started the phase down in twentyten. So as it as it progressed,
we could still buy and they werestill making our twenty two, but
they were phasing down who was makingit, how much it was allowed to
(03:36):
be made per year, you know, and things like that, and so
what happens when you have scarcity,the price goes up, right, and
so that's what's happened with R twentytwo. I can remember my dad would
be so angry when a thirty poundjug of R twenty two was thirty bucks.
They raised it to thirty bucks,and he was just this is ridiculous.
Now. That was back in theeighties, right, But and then
(04:00):
I think it was last summer orthe summer before I saw a jog was
three thousand, Oh my good dollars. And it fluctuates like gold. The
price has come down again. Eventuallyit'll be obsolete. So if people were
hanging on to it hoping to geta really good price out of that joga
R twenty two, it'll it'll beabsolete because soon, right are they soon
(04:20):
the art you know, some ofthe R twenty two units will be replaced
and people there won't even be ademand for it, so you might want
to, you know, sell itif you're hoarding it. Also, I've
also heard of R twenty two onthe black market. Oh yeah, I
love so it's become a black marketitem. I'm not going there, no,
not at all, because one youdon't know where it came from.
(04:43):
You don't know is it pure,is it recycled, is it mixed with
something else? You know, there'sthere's some things you have to be careful
of. Basically, with anything onthe black market, you don't know what
you're going in right, exactly exactly. So R twenty two's definitely had an
interesting history. And if you stillhave an R twenty two unit, you
can still use it if it's stillworking, that's fine. If you have
(05:09):
a if it needs recharged and acontractor has R twenty two, although I've
heard the price anywhere from one hundredand eighty to three hundred dollars a pound
locally for R twenty two, itmight not be your best decision to recharge
it because the rest of your systemis also old, right, But if
(05:29):
you want to, you could dothat, all right, catch it.
But again, R twenty two willeventually become obsolete and not be available.
Now. Now, if I couldjump in here, what are there some
of the differences between R twenty twoand the four ten Are there any distinct
differences between the two? Well,they all look at their GWP, which
is global warming potential, all right, So how does it affect the climate,
(05:54):
especially the ozone layer. R twentytwo was found to deteriorate the ozone
layer. Now they look at fourten A, it was better, but
it's still not what their goal isand the efficiency level. So they want
to make appliances more and more efficient, and there's a couple of ways to
(06:14):
do that. One is the refrigerantthat's used and can you because what refrigerant
is used to do is transfer heatfrom front one location to another. It's
a transfer medium, okay, Sothat's why you have a hot air discharge
on your outdoor unit through okay,through that refrigerant circulating and working with a
blower on your furnace. It's actuallyremoving heat and then it discharges as outside
(06:40):
through your out for your outdoor unit. So they they are looking for,
you know, more efficiency out ofthe refrigent as well. They make the
units physically bigger because it has morecoil, more circulating and then it so
sometimes people are shocked, like,boy, my old ones not that big.
(07:00):
Well, TASCA has the you know, it's been required to increase the
efficiency. So they look at theUnited States and regions and each region has
its own efficiency standards for equipment thathas to be sold in that area.
So ours is not as high asan efficiency requirement as a south or the
west. Right. So right nowit's thirteen ci er, which is again
(07:25):
an efficiency measurement. I'm not goingto go into the weeds with that.
But and in the south it mightbe fourteen or fifteen, right, So
our region is not quite as rigidand its standard, you know, or
it has to be as efficient.Now here's the thing that can be very
(07:46):
difficult for people to comprehend is thatthe cost of the increased efficiency may be
more than the savings you'll ever getout of your unit. And a good
contractor should be able to evaluate evaluatethat for you. So what we look
at is trying to create a millionB to you across each efficiency. And
(08:07):
then if we're looking at heating eachoil gas, propane, elect straight electric,
heat pump, geothermal, and welook at, okay, how much
does it cost to create a millionB to you? All right, Well,
once you do that, then youcan look at the cost comparison,
see what your savings is going tobe over your old unit, and then
(08:28):
how quickly you get that payback Andsometimes it's not going to pay you back
in the life of the unit.So that's something people don't understand, and
especially and especially since, as wementioned in the beginning, you're trying to
find ways to trying to find waysto go with this new change that's going
(08:50):
on, but at the same time, you don't want to put as much
effort as you need to put intoit. Well, you know, the
EPA and gets to sit in theirhigh rey tower, right and you know,
the government gets to sign on tothe Montreal Protocol and then something called
the Kegalley Amendment which they signed inOctober of twenty two, and then we
(09:13):
as the contractors get to explain everythingto everybody. They are, you know,
putting us on the front line rightto try and explain all this.
Now they have information out there onthe website, but you know, you're
the person that's hopping talking face toface with a property owner and we get
(09:33):
that joy. So don't kill themessenger, you know. And I'm not
jumping onto a global climate change politicalbandwagon. That's not what I'm here for.
What I'm here for us to explainwhat the law says, what we
have to comply with, provide informationwhere property owners can make their decision on
do they want to replace, dothey want to maintain? Do they want
(09:54):
to wait for the new refrigerants likeyou mentioned is coming up. So the
refrigerant is considered an A two Lrefriger And what's that means is there's two
levels of toxicity A and B allright. So A means it's less toxic.
Two is the flammability, which isUH one, two or three.
(10:15):
So it's in the middle, andit's determined to be mildly flammable, okay,
And L means it has fluorine init, all right. So it's
an A two L refrigerant. Now, when I first heard it was mildly
flammable, I was like, ohmy goodness, what is that kind of
means to us? Are we're gonnahave to get it new tools? Are
we gonna have to laybor our vansas you know, hauling flammable? You
(10:35):
know, things are gonna have toyou know what kind of training aren't have
to do? You're gonna have towear hazmat suits? What does this mean?
And I always go, you know, it's the most extreme, and
that's and that's just another reason whywe're clearing things up right here, because
it because of that panic that mighthave been suited well. And so many
people associate flammable with explosive, allright, so it's not always the same
(10:58):
thing, right, Not all thingsthat are flammable explode, so I want
to clear that up right away.And there's been many types of flammable substances
that are handled. So think ofpropaine for your girl. All right,
have there been mistakes made? Oh? Yeah, right, a candlewick,
lamp oil. I mean, thosetides of things are are flammable, but
(11:20):
you can be safe with them,right, Okay, mildly flammable, so
we are not going to have tolabel our vans. And the tool adaptation
isn't too bad. So I feltbetter as I started researching this, and
what we found out is that thereare three conditions that need to be met
(11:45):
for it to be flammable. Okay, So those three conditions are One,
there has to be a leak that'ssignificant, significant enough to reach the low
flammability limit. It's a tongue twist, which is above ten percent. So
the enclosed space above ten percent wouldhave to be you know, be this
(12:09):
a two our refrigerant before it wouldbe considered in a significant leak. Two,
the concentration, so the refrigerant hasto be highly concentrated, all right.
And three, there has to bean ignition source, so the refrigerant
is exposed to an open flame orhigh energy ignition source. However, laboratories
(12:33):
tests have shown that even a loweven a blow torch flame may not be
able to ignite a two our refrigerants, gotcha. Okay, so it has
the conditions have to be absolutely perfect. And what the manufacturers are doing is
they are putting sensors in the coilthat sits above the furnace or below.
If you have a down flow andthey're putting sensors in there and you know
(12:56):
kind of mitigation things, well it'llshut the system off. Gotcha. If
something like that happens now to thecontractor, you think, oh, well,
can the sensors go bad? Right? Can it go and shut down
your system? And that's the onlyproblem that there wasn't necessarily the refrigerant to
cost it. That remains to beseen, you know, it's it,
(13:20):
I mean, as it is withany new thing that's going to be coming
along here, there unfortunately will stillbe a bit of a learning process even
when this change does go into effect. Yeah, there's it's definitely going to
be a high learning curve. Sowhat we've found out also is that there
are about seventy million units worldwide,especially in Europe and India, that already
(13:43):
used A too L refrigerants. Sothe you know, they say, oh
the US is behind, the USis behind, Well, we are a
little behind in that we haven't adoptedthese A two refrigerants yet, which other
countries have, so they've been usingand actually nine out of ten cars on
the road today is using A twoour refrigerance right in their air conditioning systems.
(14:07):
And then many window units have Atwo hour refrigerants since twenty fifteen actually,
and you don't see any reports oranything like that on it, so
that there's been all these explosions oranything happening like that, or any flammability
or fires. So that made mefeel a little better, you know,
because I was in the same panicas everybody else when I hear mildly flammable.
(14:28):
So I'm I'm hoping for all thesafety protocols that work that these three
conditions won't happen, But I thinkyou still have to have people who know
how to handle it exactly. Andas we mentioned the learning curve. It's
still going to be there. Butwhen we have trained professionals like you guys
(14:48):
at rumor Loud and looking at everynook and cranny with this change, it's
gonna be it's gonna give people thatreassurance they need. So what's going on
now is there are a two hourrefrigerance system items now available. They're limited
and the manufacturers are phasing them in. And the whole idea with the Kigali
Amendment and the AIM Act, whichthe AIM Act in the United States gave
(15:13):
the EPA charged with the EPA oftracking three situation, they have to they
have to phase down production and consumptionof four TENA. Okay, they also
have to manage the substitutions that arecoming in for FOURTENA, which are currently
(15:33):
are thirty two and are four fiftyfour B. Now, the difference between
those two has to be whether themanufacturer owns the factory I think, but
they're both acceptable at this point.But there has to be efficiency increases over
(15:54):
the years and then all of thefour ten A has to be reduced by
eighty five percent by twenty thirty six, all right, So it's a gradual,
phased out, just like our twentytwo was. You know, it
was ten years before the manufacturing importcouldn't happen anymore. You could still use
stock, you can use reclaimed,you know, recycled and reclaimed. And
(16:18):
what we've done for people is ifthey're just like, please just get me
by, Please just get me bywith their you know, we may have
some reclaimed R twenty two and we'llsay we'll go ahead and put this in,
but we make no guarantees with yourleaks or how long it's going to
last or anything. But they say, oh, just get me by,
And I get that. You know, you just can't afford it right now.
You just put on a new roofand your air conditioner goes. I
mean, there's all kinds of thingsthat happened. Oh yeah, right.
(16:41):
So the EPA also has to facilitatethe transition. So they've been you know,
tasked with that by our government throughthe Aim Act. And so the
R four TENNA is going to bephased out as well, and eventually,
but the phase down is the firststep and then phase out. So if
(17:03):
you're looking I'm trying to look atvarious situations and try to help people evaluate
to make a good decision about whatto do with their current system. So,
if you have an R twenty twounit, like I said before,
and it doesn't leak and you wantto just keep on using it because it's
working, fine, you can dothat. Ain't broke, don't fix it,
right exactly now, you should maintainit core. Oh yeah, yeah,
(17:26):
absolutely right. Your words are comingcoming back in the head and ounce
of prevention is worth a pound ofcure. And that's exactly right, because
even you know, even though youdon't see it, there's vibrations going on,
you know, in the in thesystem, and even a loose wire
can stop you dead in the water, right, So that that could happen
with the system. Now, let'sjust say you do have a leak and
(17:47):
you want to recharge it, andyou want to pay two or three hundred
dollars a pound per refrigerant, youcan do that? Is that the most
prudent decision? Probably not again,because of your unit is also the rest
of your stuff. Oh, ifyou compress your condenser, fan, motor
and so on as well, thoseleaks can be very hard to find.
Now, what we do is wecheck all the beraze joints, all the
places that it could be obvious totry and find that butt. There's lots
(18:11):
of you know, copper in there, embedded and so on. You can't
always find it. So if werecharge it, it may last you two
hours, two days, two weeks, two years, you know, if
we can't find the leak. Now, there is a die that you can
put in a system that's fluorescent.You have to wait for it to permeate
the system and then you look atit with a black light. So you
(18:33):
like cover the unit in your headand you hold a black light and you
can see where those leaks are.They may be repaarable, they may not,
you know, So that's up tothe homeowner, but it might be
prudent to think about changing. Sothen we get to should you buy a
unit now with a four ten Aor in the future. Well, I
think that depends on a couple ofthings. One, are you going to
stay in that house for the restof your life? Yeah, you know,
(18:55):
you might want to wait, andyou might want to. But the
new equipment's going to be more expensive, of course. I mean, not
only does change give an excuse fora manufacturer to raise prices, but they're
also using sensors now and an extraborder two to you know, monitor that
that refrigerate a new atl a tooour refrigerant. So you got to think,
(19:17):
Okay, do I just want toput it in now? I know
I'm going to be able to serviceit probably through twenty thirty six, And
and I want a cheaper price now. You know, if you're going to
sell your house, you might wantto do that. If if you're going
to be there for the rest ofyour life, you might want to try
and get by and buy the newrefrigerant. But the equipment is going to
(19:38):
be more expensive. So I justhope all this information helps people, you
know, evaluate what to do withtheir current system, and especially since it
can it can be a bit ofa scary change, as as can be
with quite a few other changes thatcould that could ever happen. But the
more information and transparency that we canhave before this change goes into place,
(20:03):
the better off people are going tobe when it comes to making important decisions
like that. And if someone givesyou a scare tactic and says, oh,
you can't use that anymore, yougot to replace your system. I
mean it broke my heart. Ihad this elderly lady call a couple of
summers ago and she goes, whatthe guy was just at my house and
told me that I have to replacemy system. Then I'm not going to
be able to use my current refrigerator, you know, my current air conditioner.
I said, ma'am, yes youcan. You know, so get
(20:26):
another opinion. If someone is tellingyou that, get another opinion. Because,
as I've write this second now,things change all the time. I
mean, I think the Cagallley Amendmentchanged dying times. So you know,
things change all the time. Butas of right now, no one's forcing
you to do that. Yeah,a lot of a lot of the time,
the first thing you hear is notalways going to be the be all,
(20:49):
end all solutions. So do alittle bit more research if you do
come across somebody saying something like that, because because as we mentioned, very
big decision, right, and there'sa lot of information on the internet.
There's YouTube videos, there's all kindsof presentations about it. So if people
are more you know, they wantto learn more about the chemistry of the
(21:12):
refrigerants, you can find that ifyou want to learn more about the history
and the different you know, amendmentsthe Cagallley Amendment and the Montrell Protocol and
everything. There's information on that andwhen it was ratified. So there's still
a lot of more information out there, and I try and peel it down
to where you know, the averagehome owner will understand, you know,
(21:36):
what's being presented and understand what theyare going to need to think about if
they're you know, facing a possiblechange. And that is why you're an
expert on demand. Thank you,Corey. So if anybody needs any of
rumor allowed in services or information,where all can they go? Well,
there's information on rumor aloud dot com, and there's information at our three locations.
(22:03):
And you know, I have peoplecall and ask questions all the time,
even if they're not scheduling an estimateor service call. I don't mind
that I want I will give theman honest answer. I will give them
the most current answer that I have, and I don't care if people call.
So they could call the Mountsville office, they could call Saint Clair's the
office, they could call the Barnesvilloffice. They could send a question to
(22:23):
info at rumorloud dot com. Ipersonally get those and you know, I'll
answer as best I can or setup a phone call. You know,
I just want to be and ifI don't know it, I will research
it in or and or refer themto a good source. So lots of
good information ahead of this big changecoming in the new year, and especially
when it comes from an expert ondemand like Kelly Louden of Rumor loud and
(22:47):
it gives people a lot of peaceof mind before the change goes into effect.
So Kelly, thanks so much forjoining us back here. It's having
me hopefully not too long before thenext one. We do one of these,
Okay, it's a deal. Sothank you guys so much for listening
to Experts on Demand. As always, if you want to listen to past
episodes, you can check out theExperts on Demand podcast on the free iHeartRadio
app, or you can go toNewsRadio eleven seventy dot com and it's listed
(23:10):
under the podcast tab and the dropdom menus. So I'm grek Lude,
thanks so much for listening to andlearning from an expert on demand.
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